Transcription
M, it's God, it's God, it's God! Let's give everybody a hand for y'all coming out here today, man. Thank you. I might be a politician. All right, all right. Let's get this show on the road. All right, turn on your mics. Test it, test it, test it. Testing, one, two, three. Test. There we go. We good to go. All right, who going, uh, want to introduce first? JP, it's up to you. I mean, I guess you're the guest, so you can go first.
All right, since I'm the guest, all right, you know, hospitalities, you know. So, first of all, I want to thank, uh, Captain Cesar for agreeing to the discussion, man. Uh, I appreciate it, man, and bringing everybody through. Um, so I'm praying that this goes well and it's fruitful. I pray that, uh, the seeds are planted and, um, and that everyone learns and everyone has a good time here. We're going to have a good time. My name is Avery. Channel is God Logic Apologetics. We are discussing whether or not Jesus is God. And obviously, I hold the position that Jesus is God. He's the Divine Son of God who came into the flesh. He pre-existed before his human birth and existed eternally with the Father and the Spirit with, uh, eternal fellowship and eternal communion. And I believe that the scripture is very, very clear on that, and we're going to discuss that today. So, if you guys want to find me, it's God Logic Apologetics. God Logic G on Instagram and on Facebook, and that's where you guys can hit me up if you guys have questions or want to see anything. All right, that's my intro. My turn now.
Um, I do want to appreciate also God Logic for, uh, coming out here, setting up. I want to thank all the people that came out here. This is, um, a good opportunity for us to have a public discussion on the subject of Jesus Is God. Make no mistake about it, Jesus is not God. And even in terms where people are called Gods, there's no reference or at any time of being the Most High God. You have a God, you have a son. And if the son has a God, he can't be God. So, I hope we're not going to get into semantics of the word God and just, just stick right to the subject of, is Jesus God as Christians teach it, believing that he is God? So, we'll use Christ's words, we'll use the scriptures. I'm looking forward to having a, um, well, healthy debate on this subject. And, um, I mainly deal with scriptures. I'm not a, isog, what, what ises, ex, whichever words those are, whichever one of those words are. I also don't talk when people talking. Um, I like, like to point that out. I didn't talk in his intro, but I don't do none of that when, um, when I'm talking. I mean, it's a skill, it's a gift. So, I don't do none of that. But we will be pointing out through the Bible. If you pull out anything outside of the Bible, we would have to say that they're not following the Bible because the Bible has to be our foundation. The scripture says, "Let God be true and every man a liar." So, if the scripture doesn't reference him as being God, as the Most High God, um, then I wouldn't take that term. I'd rather believe what Christ said, and Christ said he's the Son of God. So, that's my position, and I'm ready to rock and roll.
All right, let's get ready to rumble, folks. All right, so, um, I guess to kick this off, um, I would ask, if you believe that the son is a created being?
Yeah, the son has a creation point. The son is the first creation of God. Okay. And then through that son, that's how you get everything else. That's Colossians 1:15.
Okay, so you're taking "firstborn" when it says he's the firstborn of all creation, you're taking that literal to mean that he is the first thing that the Most High ever created? That's the only thing the Most High put his hands on is Christ. Okay. So, the Most High created Christ and then gave Christ the ability to create, you know, the angels, the principalities, the people, the planet, the Earth. He's the mouth or word of God at that point. Okay. But he would be subordinate. So, in the pecking order, you would have the Father, the Son. The son is subordinate to the Father. Okay. So, it would be like that. So, in, in Colossians 1, when it continues to say, like, why Paul called him the firstborn? Right. He says, "He's the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, dominions, powers, principalities, rulers, all things were created through him and for him." So, how can he be part of creation if he himself created all things?
I didn't, you asked the question that you asked was not, is, um, the question that you asked was, was he created? Yeah. And that's facts. He's the firstborn. God is not born. God is, there is no born point for God. But we do have a born point based on even that scripture that you just said, that he's born. And then when you keep reading, I think in verse 19 in Colossians 1, it says, "It pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell." So, even in the term Father, Son, somebody had to be created, and it ain't the Father. So, that even him being a son means he's created. Okay.
So, I, I would disagree with that. And here's why, because if we're taking, like, what the text says, right? It says that "for by him all things were created." If you're saying that Jesus was created by the Father, then that would contradict when it says he created all things, and then all things were created through him. I, I guess, I would ask, did the Father, if so, all things were created through the Son, was the Son also then created through himself?
That's kind of like an illogical question because then you would be saying that Jesus, I'm assuming because you take the position of Jesus as God, you can't fathom that Christ could have a starting point. If it says, "If it pleased the Father, in him all fullness dwell," who authorized Christ to do everything? It's, it's the Father's author, author.
So, did Christ, did the Father exist without Christ or before Christ? No. Can you prove that? Yeah, with the scripture here. That's why I asked, if all things were created through him, right? Weird. No. Look, look, you're saying that he's, he's the first thing that the Father created. If that's correct, then you have to say that through the Son, Jesus was created, because it says all things were created through him. No, that's, that's not what that text means. That, like again, it's illogical. That's not what that text means because at some point there was the Father by himself. Where does it say that? It doesn't say that there in that verse. When it says, um, "Christ is the beginning of creation," that means something is creating the beginning, and that's the Most High creating Christ. Okay. And then from there, I mean, you want to read it? Would it be better to read? It might help you because I think you, I think you're foggy right now.
No, no, I'm not the foggy one. I think, no, definitely not. Because it says, "If it says in, it pleased the Father that in him," that means the Father did something for a son. We agree, right? Yes. So, if you have a child, right? You exist before the child, right? Well, that's, that's me. I'm a human. But it is a Father-Son relationship. There's no woman. So, it's a metaphor, right? Well, well, is the Father-Son metaphor? I, I would not say that it's metaphoric. You know, I, I would say that, why would you say? Because it's a real, it's a real relationship. That I, I say the relationship. I'm talking about the terminology of Father-Son in a normal environment. It's a man, woman, and child. Excuse me, man and woman that makes a child. Like Exodus 4:22 says, "Israel is my son, even my firstborn." That's not literal. It's a metaphor for a relationship, right? So, now you have a Father and a Son. That's a metaphor of a relationship. So, a Father exists before a Son is there. Okay. That's common sense. I ask you this. Let me ask you this. Was the Father always the Father? Yes. Okay. Are you, I would say the Most High always is. Yeah, right. So, he's always been the Father. He's always been. Has he always been the Father? Well, he was the Father once Christ is there. That's why I'm saying it. So, so at one point he was not the Father. He became. I would never say that he's not the Father. All right. That's what I'm asking. So, was there at any point in all of history, of, you know, of all eternity, that God was not the Father? No. Okay. So, because the Father is just, that's why I said it's not a literal connection. The Father is the Father of all things. Got it. Like Christ can be, or Abraham is like called the Father of our faith. Faith is not a child either. It's a, right? So, it's a metaphor. So, him being a Father is always being a Father. On this subject, though, he was Christ's Father and he created Christ and then gave Christ the ability to do the things that he did. He also took things from Christ, okay? Like when Christ asked the Father to give him his glory back, yeah, because that's a Father separate from himself. So, God can't, unless, unless Christ talking to himself.
Let's talk about this fatherhood. Okay. So, the implications of the example that you gave. You said in every example when there's a, you know, there's a father, there's, there's a woman, and then there's the son. You're saying in every example, the father always exists before the son does. And so, I'm saying in that layout, you have a problem with your theology. Because that's not my theology. Well, well, if you're saying that the Father has always been the Father, then that means that he's always had a son. No, that doesn't. That's why when I said the mother and father, I was trying to help you understand the metaphor of how it's not literal that Christ is the literal son. Like, no, I get that. Right. But then you just brought that up. So, I don't think you got it. And then I tried to give you another example when I said Abraham is the Father of Faith. Faith is not a child either. It's a metaphor. So, he's always the Father because it's talking about him being the foundation. He's always been the foundation. All right. So, but the, I'll give another one more example. When Christ says, um, when it says, "He shall declare our sin," in Isaiah the 53rd chapter, "He shall declare his seed." Yeah, Christ didn't literally have us. Even though we know that's talking about Christ, it's a metaphor of a relationship. Yeah. You sure you got it now? No. So, you, I don't think that you was understanding the point I was attacking. You brought up an example saying that if he's the Father, then that must mean that he came before the Son, because fathers come before their sons, correct? Right. Okay. So, when you said, "That's what I was attacking." If you're saying that fathers always come before their sons, and you say at the same time, God has always been the Father, that means that he's always been the Son. You're not a father until you have a son. And what I had to clarify for you is that in that context, Christ didn't exist, but the Most High was always the Father because he's the Father of everything. There was nothing for him to be a Father of. Of course. But how does everything start from the Father? The Father is the found. Before Christ died, excuse me. Did, did Christ declare our seed? Say that again. Does Christ declare our seed? According to Isaiah 53, is he our Father? Yes. So, how is that a metaphor? Yeah, that's a metaphor, right? So, the Father and Christ, the Father and Son is the metaphor of a subordinate relationship. I got it. So, in Colossians 1:15, when it says, "He is the beginning of the firstborn of all creation," is the Father created? No. The Father is not created, and neither is the Son. Because the next verse tells you why he's called firstborn. Like, for example, can we read it? Well, sure. We can pull it up. But, but let me, let me ask you this. Is, is David, was David the first king of Israel? No. Was David the oldest of his family? No. But David is called the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the Earth, right? So, was he the firstborn king of Israel? The verse, excuse me, the verse I quoted was, "Israel is my son, even my firstborn." He's not the first nation born either. Exactly. So, you're proving my point. No, no, what you're saying is, look, you're saying you're, you're taking "firstborn" literally in in Colossians 1, but recognizing that it can be used figuratively elsewhere. No, I'm not taking "firstborn" literally. Okay. I'm taking "beginning." Christ is the beginning of the things that the Most High created. That's the only thing. Okay. So, my position is that the Most High created Christ and then charged Christ with doing everything else. That's what verse 9, 19 tells you. It says, "It pleased the Father that in him should all fullness dwell." So, that means the Father chose Christ and said, "I'm gonna put everything in your power." Yes. So, the Father gave it to him. Christ didn't take it. Christ couldn't demand it. Christ couldn't even do it himself. The Father gave it to him.
Well, okay. So, this is where the, the substance of this is, though. Because you're saying when he's the "beginning of the creation of God," the word is "arché," which means source. He's the source of the beginning. He's the source of all creation because everything was created by Him and through Him. If, under whose authority, though? We can say the Father's. No problem. Okay. So, once you say there's a Father, there, he can't be the God of that. That's not true. That is true. Somebody's given him power. No, he didn't. It doesn't say he gave him power. It said, "It pleased the Father that in him should all." Said he, wait, wait. In Matthew 28:8, Christ says, "All power is given to me." But you just said, no, no, no. That's not what I'm saying. So, what you're talking about is the context of him when he came in the flesh and he humbled himself, set aside his authority to handle his work on Earth. That's not what, that's not what Matthew 28. That's exactly what it's talking about. No, when it says, "All authority is given to him," it's talking about every bit of power that he gained for being obedient. Author. So, now he had to ask for the glory to be given back. That means he's subordinate. What glory, though? The glory that he had in the beginning. So, he had this glory before. I never said he didn't have the glory. No, I know. So, he had this glory before. He had this authority, this status before. And then we see he's in a state where he's made a little lower than. Put him in that state. He, he, he was sent by the Father. Willfully came. Who put him in that state? He and the Father. Don't say that. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world, he sent his only begotten Son." And in John, said, "And 10:17, why does the Father love the Son? Because he's obedient." Because he says, "I lay down my life for the sheep." So, it's his choice. He's coming. And he says, "No one takes it from me." He's doing this. No, no, no. When you say he's doing it, what he's doing this of his volition and of the Father's volition. No, he's doing it because the Father said so. When, when Christ was, when Christ knew he was about to die, yeah, what did he ask the Father? He said, he said, "If it's possible, take this cup from me." But will be, what was his will? Well, if you're talking about what was his will, I'm about to answer you.
B-dog, get in. About you, B-dog. So, so, water. So, so what you have here is you have Jesus, right? Um, um, within his human nature, he's having his human will submit to the divine will. Obviously, here he's a man full of sorrows. So, what was his will, though? So, so right there, you see the human will is to have the cup passed from him. But you also see his will saying, "Not my will, let Your will be done." So, ultimately, him yielding to authority. So, his will yielding to God. So, his will ultimately is for the Father's will to be done. But you said he wanted to. If it was up to him, he wouldn't have done it. No, not, not true at all. He did it because he was given an order. Right. Yeah. But, but he wanted this. No, no, no. He said he wanted the cup to pass. You can't want the cup to pass and then say, "Not my will." If it's his will, that's what does the, "my will" represent? At the same time, just dealing with exactly what you just said. At the same time, ultimately, he says, "Let Your will be done." I don't want to get to the ultimate because you made it seem like they were on the same accord, which they are on the same accord, but they're on the same accord because of what the Father wanted. But it's also, if it was up to Christ, it is what he wanted. He wanted what the Father wanted. Okay. His will was to let the cup pass. And so, if, okay, if he's going to, I'm going to get to the second part because I brought this up. So, if his will is to let the cup pass, you can't say that they were on the same page as far as what they both wanted. One obeyed the other. Wanted. God wanted Christ to die. Christ wanted something else. But Christ obeyed what the Father wanted, not what he wanted. Fact. That's facts. That's what the scriptures say. The scriptures say, "Not my will, but Your will." That's what makes Christ the man. Christ is the man because he never did his own will. He did the will of the Father. Right. So, let, let me respond to this. So, the reason why I'm saying that there is a discrepancy with how you're breaking this down is because you're saying that Jesus, in the first place, didn't want this. When all the scriptures, power, he's saying, "I came for this reason. I lay down my life for the sheep. No one takes it from me. I do this of my own accord. I have the authority to take, lay it down, and authority to pick it back up again. This charge I've received from my Father." He's in perfect alignment with the Father. I never said he wasn't in alignment. Okay, good. But like, real, but like, real life, I'm sorry. So, when he gets to the point of the Garden of Gethsemane, we see the struggle, we see the grievance and the sorrow that he's, well, the scripture tells us he says that he's acquainted with grief, a man, because what he's facing, he's taking on the, because now it's about to be real. So, like, what you, thank you. So, now, what, what him saying, "I'm going to be sacrificed, raised up three days," all these things, he's saying all that, and he's in agreement with it, and I'm in agreement with it. But then it gets real life, and when real life hits, now that's when he got the grief, like, man, I'm about to go through it. And then he goes to the Father and prays, "If it be possible, my will is to let this cup pass," because now it's going to be real life. It's like, if you got anything, anything you're preparing to do, you could be preparing for anything, and then when it's go time, you might be a little nervous, you might be a little jittery. And so, Christ was the same way. So, my point is, he was subordinate to something else, so he can't be God. God doesn't report. But see, okay, so this is where we're getting it. You're, you're conflating a role and status with nature. So, just because Jesus humbles himself before the Father doesn't take away his divine nature. This is why I'm saying, when he said, when the scripture says that "for by him all things were created," I don't argue that, though. But you do, though. Because you're saying he didn't create the Father. Well, well, the Father is not a thing, is he? Thank you. So, then there's something that existed before Christ was told to do what he did. The Father created Christ, told Christ, "Go do all of this," and he did it. So, that beginning and everything after that has nothing to do with the Father. What does "all things" mean? All things means everything except the Father. Okay. So, he's not, he's excluded because he's not a thing created. Right, right. Okay. So, but I mean, don't, don't make things so cynical. Because you got angels, you got people, you got animals, and Christ is responsible for it all. Christ, Christ is responsible under the authority of the Father. Even what you just quoted, Christ said, "I do nothing of my own, but of Him that sent me." So, even out of his own words, he's subject to God.
Well, all right. So, but this is the problem, though. Okay. Like I said, again, you're conflating subordination, role, or humility with nature. Like, if I'm subordinate to, like, you, you're a captain, you got people under you. Just because they're subordinate to you doesn't make them any less human than you. It doesn't change their nature. You're both human, even though you are captain and they may, you know, I don't know what the, you told me the ranks earlier. About you want a water? Uh, yeah, please. Thank you. You got another one? Told you. Y'all see this? Y'all see how, man? Appreciate it, man. No sweat. No sweat. But, but it does. So, subordination and humility or status, a rank has nothing to do with one's nature. So, that's what we're discussing. But you, you are, you're saying because he's subordinate to the Father, that means he's not God. By no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm explaining subordination just to break down the order. Like, for example, does Jesus have a God? Yes or no? He, yeah, he submits to the Father as his God. He just said, he, wait, do you want, you want me to break that down? Am I being punked? He said, "I'm making," you just said, "I'm making this submissive argument," and then you just said, "Excuse me, subordinate argument," and then you just said, "He's submissive to the Father." Yeah. Do you, so, so again, did I say that he's submissive to the Father? That's what argument was you making with me? You, so, you made this whole subordinate argument only to agree that he submits to God. He's submissive to God. So, so for example, but the debate title is Jesus God. Yeah. That's the debate title. Not, is he humble to God? Not, is he submissive? See, you're conflating. I ask you if Jesus has a God, and, uh, and what, what was my answer? You said, "Yes, he submits to." Would you like me to explain that? Okay. Before you do that, the scripture, just, just a scripture reference in 1 Corinthians 11:3. That's the scripture I'm referencing. It says, "The head of every man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God the Father." So, I need you to explain how that doesn't mean that Jesus has a God, because I'm assuming you're about to wiggle out of it.
Well, no. What I'm showing you is that just because the head of Christ is God the Father, doesn't take away from Jesus having the same divine nature as the Father. Just like if your captain, Cesar, is the head of Trooper, uh, you know, Israel, you know what I'm saying? That doesn't mean that Trooper Israel is not human like Captain Cesar. So, what I'm saying, or like, for example, if the head of every woman is man, are they not both human? So, notice how this is talking about rank, not not nature. So, what I'm saying is, is that yes, Christ humbles himself to the Father, he's subordinate to the Father willfully, but that doesn't take away that he himself shares the same divine, eternal nature as the Father. As we see what the scripture says, "For by him all things were created." Was he created? If you say yes, then you have to say that the Father created Jesus through Jesus. That makes no sense. There's no scripture that says that the Father created Jesus through Jesus. But when people want to make Jesus God, you just said that the head of Jesus is God. Correct? Yes. The Father. So, if the, you, you said God the Father. Yes. He's the head of Christ. Why do you say God the Father? Because I want to make sure I'm very clear with our language here. I got to make sure that we're talking about the person of the Father. Where you're talking about God being the head of Jesus. Since we talk of scriptures, 1 Corinthians 8:5 says, "Though there be many that are called gods, whether in heaven or earth, but to us, there is one God, the Father." So, if you bring in another God besides Christ, then you don't understand the scripture. And then the very next verse says, "And one Lord, Christ." And any man can be called Lord. David is called Lord. Abraham is called Lord. A lot of men are called Lord. So, now we have two scripture references where the scripture, Paul says, "To us, there is one God, the Father." He didn't say two. He didn't say three. So, now, what we have read, what we have read, Colossians, you have the Father giving power to his Son. Matthew 28, you have the Father, excuse me, Christ asking the Father or saying that the Father gave him power. John 17, Christ saying, "Give me the glory that I once had." He's asking somebody for glory. And in 1 Corinthians 11:3, it says, "The head of Christ is God." Okay. So, did you land? Okay. Got you. So, this is my problem with this. Cap. This is my problem, man. So, cuz you keep going back to subordination. No, this ain't sub. Wait, wait. I'm, wait. Before you go, just, just 10 seconds. Stop flipping what I'm saying to subordination. I'm not, what I'm saying because what I'm showing is that Jesus has a God. The head of Christ is God. Got it. Jesus has a God that he talks to, that he gets power from, that he gets authority from. So, there is somebody over him. That's my position. It's not subordination. That's what you're talking about. Okay. All right. That God exists outside of Christ.
Okay. So, let's talk about this because you brought up 1 Corinthians 8. You said, "For us, there's one God." He said, "The next part where it says there's one only one Lord is the Father Lord?" Yes. The Father is Lord. But it says there's only one Lord. So, so just because it says there's only one God, the Father, you're saying that excludes Christ from being God. But when it says there's only one Lord, Jesus Christ, that doesn't exclude the Father's being Lord. That's that's your argument. He gave him the runaround. Give y'all ain't going to clap for him. Clap for him. That's it. It was asked. But you like that. No, no, I didn't. But your word salad is good. Thank you. Because cook, he's trying to jump out the pot, man. No. So, cuz you just said because "to us there is one God," and then you said "one Lord," and you made it seem like that word "Lord" in that context is talking about like Lord, if we said Yahweh or y'all may say Jehovah, y'all may say Yahweh. That's not the Lord that it's talking about. It's talking about a Lord like if you said a ruler. Right. Exactly. So, it's not talking about the Most High's name. Like Psalms 8, that's not my argument. What is the point of bringing up the one Lord? The one, yeah. So, my argument is clean up. I'm going to help you out so you can catch up to. No, I'm, I'm caught. I'm caught. Little behind because you made that one Lord seem like that one Lord is talking. Now, that's this. How I know that you don't even understand what I said. Look, I do. Because you're talking subordination. No, this is what you did. Okay. This is what you did. Everybody saw it. Everybody pay attention. You said, according to the scripture, there's only, it says there's only one God, the Father. So, to say there's any God outside the Father, man, you're going against the scripture. Right, right. So, that, so I said, okay, let's see if you're going to be consistent. In the next verse, it says, it says, right, same, same sentence, right? Same sentence. It says, "And to us, there's only one Lord, Jesus Christ." Now, I asked you, is, I asked you, is the Father Lord? You said, yes. I'm not laughing at you. I know. I know. I know. Hallelujah, man. That's right. That's right. But that, but that one, I'm sorry. So, so to be, I'm just holding you to be consistent with your argument and how you're understanding the verse. You're saying there's one God, the Father, according to the verse. So, you can't identify anybody else as God. Okay. So, I'm like, okay, let's see if you're consistent. It says there's one Lord, Jesus Christ. Do you identify anybody else as Lord? You said, yes, the Father. So, you're being inconsistent. You ask me, is the Lord, the Father, in the context that that's talking about that subordination? You have God the Father. It's only one. We agree, right? Yes. Only one. Yes. The Lord is like, we don't have another Lord or Master. There ain't nobody else like, you know, you might have a God, but all, because that subject of 1 Corinthians, the 8th chapter, is about different gods. So, you can have a, all that you might call Lord, you can have any of other Greek gods that you might call Lord. We don't have that. Just like false. Right, right. Just like we don't have no other gods. The whole subject is to say, though, and that verse five says, "Though there be many gods, whether in earth or in heaven," so there's a lot of things called gods. But to us, when we say God, we say the Father. Now, some instances, we're going to call him the Lord or Yahweh. And then we have one Lord or Master because that, that represents who the Father sent. Yeah. So, this right here, in this verse, it's not talking about Yahweh, that the name. It's not talking about the, the, no, not the L part, right? But the God part. The Father is signifying there's only one God. Yeah. But there's, it also says that there's only one Lord, Christ. That's right. So, but you also said that the Father is Lord, Christ? Not in that context. The subject, the word, if you're going to use the Greek word, that's crazy because there's a Hebrew people that are talking. So, that word Lord is going to be, but it's still people talking. Paul was a Hebrew, was he not? Using the Greek? Was Paul an Israelite? Yes. Using the Greek? We can use any language, okay? If you go, if you go into, if you go, well, let's get consistent. Second Maccabees 6:6, they made it illegal to be a Jew, and then we became Hellenized, so we started speaking different languages. Just like in America, we're speaking English, this ain't our native language, so we're speaking in the land of our captivity. Paul was an Israelite from the tribe of Benjamin, but he was a Roman citizen. So, he's talking to Greek-speaking Jews. Let not be cynical. So, now I'm saying that because that word Lord is going to be the same everywhere in the Greek, just like the word world is going to be the same everywhere in the Greek, even though we're going to know that there's a different context when we see the word world, just like there's a different context when we see the word Lord. So, the word Lord in that context is not getting rid of the Most High being called Lord. It's letting us know we have one boss. So, we have one king, or we have one ruler, and that's who the Father set up. So, again, that verse says, "To us, there is one God." You're giving us two Gods. You're giving us Father God and you're giving us, excuse me, God the Father and you're giving us God the Son. Okay. That's what you're giving us. I'm not. So, what I'm, and who is the other? What is Jesus to you? The reason why I'm saying he's the second person of, of the Trinity, of the divine nature. Not, he's not a God. So, just for clarity, you're saying God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit? Yes. That's not in the Bible either. Well, well, it actually is, though. If, well, that's what I'm showing you. I can show you the scripture where, well, you, you don't argue that the Father's God. But the, the scripture calls the Son God as well. Isaiah 9:6, as you know, um, it calls him, "Mighty God." Romans 5:1, it's Moses. No, he, no, but it said that he will be as God to Pharaoh. Who, who said who made him God? I wanted to address your verse. We're going to come back to that. Problem. Come back to it. So, what I'm saying is, look, when it says, "There is one God from whom are all things," right? And then "one Lord Jesus Christ, by through whom," right? Says, "by whom," "by whom are," and then "Jesus Christ, through whom are all things." No, no, no. When the beginning says, "There is one God, the Father, of whom are all things," and then "one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom." Okay. So, it's like the Father is how everything is done, and it's through Christ. Yeah, he carries it out. Even that's subordination. Even that's, you see how he said it again? Is that word, right? That's subordination. And we're not arguing subordination. You're right. We are arguing that we are arguing that Christ submits to something over him. Yes. In authority. What is that? No, no, no, no. That entity or that power is called God. He's called. So, is the Son called the Most High God? Why is he even called the Most High God? Because he's higher than all. He's, he's, he's God. Is it not because anybody else can be called a god? Psalms 82 and 6 says, "Ye are gods." No, but it, no. So, but they're not, they're not the true God. I didn't say nothing about true God. I'm talking about the word "God." That's what confuses Christians. What confuses Christians is that Christians believe that like, when I immediately said Psalms 82 and 6, "Ye are gods," you said, "Not the true God." The reason why the Most High is called the Most High God because other entities can be called Gods. Pharaoh's called a god. Moses was made a God by, excuse me, by the Most High. Was he not? Yeah, he made him an intermediary. God said, "Not, behold, I have made thee a God to Pharaoh." So, now Moses is a God now. Okay. But, but my point is, he's not divine, though, right? You're saying that he's a judge. We're not talking about as God to. And that's the same thing as Christ. Christ being called a God is not making him the Most High. That's why he never took a Most High position. Never called himself. And when they try to tell him in John the 10th chapter, when he said, "I am my Father, or one," right? What did they try to do? They tried to stone him, right? Yeah. And they said, "Of no good works we stone thee not, but thou makest thyself a god." Did he agree or disagree with that? No. He didn't disagree with what they were saying. He, you said he didn't disagree. He didn't disagree with them. So, he agreed that he was making himself God. Yes. Wait, cuz I could have swore in that verse, he said, "Thou, if, does it not say in your law, 'Ye are,' and if this is the word of God, which cannot be broken, say thou of him that says, 'I am the Son of God'?" That's what he said. So, where did he say he was God? Well, he said, so, this is where we're at. He didn't disagree or rebuke what they said. Come, come back. Come, come back. Listen, listen. He didn't refute what they said. I, I got you. So, let me respond to this because you went on a long time. So, when you're talking about, when you're talking about how Jesus responded, he didn't say, "No, I'm not making myself out to be God," but he accused them of being these false judges who's accusing them of blasphemy for claiming to be God when he says he is the Son of God. He's claiming it in that he's equal with the Father and shares the same nature as the Father. This is why I'm saying when he says, when he says, "Isn't it in your law that that it says that I said, 'You are gods'?" Now, in this context, these are these gods who are supposed to be righteous judges, right? And not showing partiality. They're supposed to judge righteously. But they're judging, they're Israelites, right, right? Yeah, Israelites. But they're judging Christ falsely for blasphemy. So, he applies this scripture to them because they're falsely accusing him of blasphemy when he's claiming to be God by saying, "I am the Son of God." He's not claiming. If he wanted to, 30 more minutes. Okay. If he was claiming to be the Son of God, he would, excuse me, to be God, one thing about Christ, he didn't lie. That's right. And if he was claiming to be God, he would have just said so. Not true. That doesn't. I give another. Cesar said it. Caesar said it. Uh, we didn't talk about what Caesar said. We didn't even talk about what the Jews said. We talked about what Christ said. Christ said, "I am." There's so many scriptures. Matthew 19:17, he said, "Why callest thou me good? There's none good but one, that is God." He never said two. Is Jesus good? I can call him good. What did he say about himself? Look, look, look. I'm, I'm glad. Listen, give him a hand. Give him a hand. I'm glad I could teach. I'm glad I could teach. Listen, I teach a lot of my, I teach a lot of my combatants how to have a good skill set. So, now, when you say, "There's none good but one that is God," and "If thou will enter into life, keep the commandments." If you'll let me finish, it's going to go bad for you. In John 20:17, did he not say, "I go to my Father and your Father, I go to my God and your God"? Yeah. Why though? See, you got to let, let me break that down because this is what you was bringing up earlier, and I wanted to break this down to you. The Bible says in Jeremiah 32:27, "He says that God is the God of all flesh." Right? "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So, the Word is God. And what happened to the Word? He became flesh. So, that means that the Father is the God of his flesh. All right. So, that's why Jesus can say in his flesh, "I have a God over me," not that he himself is a separate God or that he's not God in the same sense the Father is. So, he submits to the Father, and by his humanity, by his humanity, the Father is his God. That's the context of that. You got to take it all in scripture, man. All of it.
So, before, before I fully respond, I just want a yes or no question. So, you're saying there's more than one God? No. Thank you for saying that. Okay. Relax, everybody. Thank you for saying that. Because you really do, y'all Christians really say that there is more than one God. That verse just said that. That verse just said in John 20:17, "Go to my Father and your Father, I go to my God and your God." And then his argument is to bring up John 1:1 when it says, "The Word is God." I told y'all earlier, these are Hebrew people. The word "God" in Hebrew is "Elohim." Some may say "Elah," and those are Israelites like myself. That word means power, angel, messenger, authority, ruler, etc. So, when it says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," that's the word there for God is power. It's not making him God. It's just that simple. Otherwise, when it talks about the angels, and you see that word "Elohim," I guess they're Gods too. But when I brought out Psalms 82 and 6, which used the same word "Elohim," he said, "No, that's not God," because that word is used to describe prince, angel, messenger, ruler, authority, judges, all of that. So, again, Christ clearly said in John 20:17, "I go to my God and your God." So, if he's reporting to something, if he's reporting, I'll go even further. When he, when the Holy Spirit, um, when he got baptized, what was the voice that spoke to him? Was that the Father? And what's the Father God? Based on 1 Corinthians, right? That's right. So, Christ wasn't talking to himself, right? He's talking to the Father. Another God? God? Yeah. So, show me where Christ called himself God. Oh, so, before I, I'll get you that. Just, just one second. Because you brought up John 1:1, like he was responding to it. For the record, when I say God, I mean the Most High God. Absolutely. We'll show that in a second. But when you're talking about the Most High God, who's creator of all things and all these things, right? He himself is uncreated. He doesn't have a beginning or an end. But when it comes to the Word, it says, "Not only that, he's God." So, he's not just God in the sense that he's like an angel, a prince, a ruler, that type of thing. But he's God, the creator of all things, of heaven and earth. How do we know this? Because in verse three, it says about the Word, who is God, it says, um, that "through him all things were made, and without him, anything that was made was made through him. Without him, there was not anything made that was made." You believe, you agree that Jesus is the Word, right? He's the Word of God. Definitely the Word. So, Jesus, he's a word of what? The word, the Word of God, right? So, there's a God, and then there's a Word. He just cut, I guess, I guess. But, but when it says, "The Word is God," we cut ourselves, huh? He admitted that Jesus is the Word, and says the Word, that word "God" is power, though. That word is not. Okay. So, so let's talk about this then. If he, if the Word is God, right? Was the Word made? Yes. Okay. So, it literally says that apart from him, without him, nothing made was made. Without him, so everything that was made, everything that came into existence, came into existence through the Word. So, did the Word come into existence through the Word? No. The Word had to be created. Oh, give him a hand. The Word had to be created. We're going right back to Colossians. "Who is the firstborn? Who is the image of the invisible God? The firstborn of all creation." That's preeminence. That's once again. So, in John 1, when you say the Word, and you said, "Did the Word exist?" Uh, uh, before? No, it didn't. It had to be created. It says that he's in the beginning with God. Was there in the beginning? God, of course, he was in the beginning because he's the first thing created. In the beginning, it says nothing that it says nothing that was made. You can't have a Father that gives somebody power. That 1 Corinthians 8:6, it says, "To us, there is one God, the Father," by whom, excuse me, "who made all things." I'm paraphrasing the scripture. And then "one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom." So, the pecking order is the Father has the power to give it to who he wants, and he gave that power to Christ to do what he wants. Just like he made Moses a God to do what he wants. Just like he made Elijah call fire out of heaven to do what he wants. Just like he made Elijah raise somebody from the.
Dead to do what he wants. The Most High can do whatever it is He wants to do. Christ can't do what He wants to do. I got you can question, "Can Christ do what He wants to do?" He can, and it's always "Show me where Christ can do what..." Hold on, because we're not getting away from this. You're trying to get away from this. No, I'm not. It says, look, it says about the word, "all things." That means all right. All things except the Father, right? He's not a thing. He's not a thing. So, he's... But we are not things either. We are. Yes, we are. We're creation. We are. We are. We are creations. We could be beasts, but we're not things. Yes, we are, bro. I mean, that's simple English, like a noun. So, it says, "All things were created through Him and nothing without Him. Nothing that has been made is it been made? Was made?" You believe the word was made? Yes. So, that word is the word Christ? So, yes. So, the word is Christ and the word is made? No. Okay, so if you're saying that, what does it mean to be the word? Let me lay this, okay? If you're saying that that that the word is made, then you have to say "cap." You have to say, if you're going to be consistent, that the word created himself, that the Father created the word through the word, 'cause nothing word came into being without word. What does the word mean? The "loos"? No. What is the... No, no, no. I ain't talking about the the meaning of the word, but when you see "the word," what does that mean? The the one who explains God? The one who explains who explains the Father? Explains God the Father? Okay. He that mean says he's the word of God. He receives the instructions from the Father and then gives us the word of God. That's why he's the word. That's not my question. My question... No, I didn't say that was your question. I'm saying that's what the... When when it's calling him the word, he's receiving something. We're receiving. When Christ spoke, he said, "The words that I speak are not mine." Whose words are that? So, so you're you're conflating the Father's words speaking audibly with "the Word of God" who explains the Father. When he said he spoke the words, what words he spoke? Are you saying that the Father's words that he spoke is the same thing as Jesus being "the Word"? What words did he speak? When he spoke his words, he said, "The words are not mine." Whose words did he speak? He's speaking the gospel. He's speaking of the Father's words. Of the Father's, right? So, the Father gave him what to say, right? So, so, no, no worries is Jesus. That's why he's the word. But no, that's not what it says, though. See, cap, you're not even explaining it right. When you're talking about the Father's words, you said Jesus is the word. Be super good. By the time I think I'm pretty good now. You believe that Jesus is the word, right? I believe that. And you believe that the Father also spoke words to him, right? Yes. So, the Father is speaking words to the word? Yes. Okay. So, do you see the distinction there? So, you over... Like doing your back. When you say, "See the distinction," give me what you mean. When you... So, there's a distinction between the the spoken words of the Father and the person who's the identified as the... He's only called "the Word" because he's the one getting the word directly from the Father. Like when St. looked up, like when Steven looked up to the to the sky and saw God and saw Christ standing on the right hand, he didn't see Jesus and God as one. He saw them separate. He saw them. He saw the distinction, not a separation. Was Jesus from the tribe of Judah in heaven? Yes. Shalom. I almost walked away from you. Almost walked away from you. So, Jesus still an Israelite in heaven? In heaven? 'Cause he has flesh. So, is God an Israelite? The Son? God the Son is Israelite? Yes. No, no, no, no. I didn't ask you. I didn't ask you about God the Son. That's what Romans... God and Israelite? Yes. God? Yeah. God the Son? Because because he took on flesh, is an Israelite according to his clip. This right here, he said, "God, what tribe?" From the word. "What tribe?" God from the word. Who is God? You can do that all you want. That don't do nothing. The word, who is God, became flesh. Let me answer you, man. The word, who is God, is crazy. The word, who is God, became flesh. And the scripture says, "I'm literally answering you, cap." Come on, man. But you're not answering what I'm asking. I'm literally asking... You're asking what what tribe is is God from? That's what you asked. I'm giving you the answer. The first thing said was, "Was is Christ an Israelite in heaven?" And did I... And what was my answer? Your answer was, "Yes." Thank you. That's Revelation the fifth chapter. Can I elaborate? But Christ is Before the Throne. You're not letting me. Okay, go ahead. All right. Thank you. Go ahead. So, I said, "The word..." You might... Your audience, "word." The word is God. Uh-huh. God, because he's the word became flesh according to the scripture. And according to his flesh, he's born of the tribe of Judah, a descendant of David. So, that's how I can say God is of the tribe of Israel according to what? His flesh. So, you need to deal with this argument instead of turning to the crowd and saying, "Man, look at this right here." That's not an argument. You got to deal with the argument. And now... And you try to run away from this. It says that "all things were made through Him and nothing that was made was made without Him." So, if He Himself is made, you have to say that Jesus Christ was made through Jesus Christ. I want to hear you say it. Say it. You done? Yeah. I want to hear you say it. Say, "Jesus Christ was made through Jesus Christ." That's probably like the first genuine laugh you got up out of me. So, now here's here's the windmill. You just did the windmill. You just did what I just asked you was, "Is Christ from the tribe of Judah in heaven?" Because now what that does is that eliminates this his human nature versus spiritual nature in heaven. No one can open that scroll. The 24 elders is like, nobody can open the scroll. And then we have Him, the Lion of David from the tribe of Judah, being presented before the Father, who we already established He's called God. And so that's the God. So, now, once I asked you, "Is God from a tribe?" You said, "Yeah." It's not in context to John 1:1, which already broke down that the word "God" in that context is Elohim. And Elohim means power, messenger, angel, authority. It's not calling Him the Most High or Yahweh. It's not calling Him that. So, you can't combine and cherry-pick or run or what y'all is... You can't... isog that context and then make it that when Revelation 5, Christ is Before the Throne from the tribe of Judah, and on the throne is the Father, and that's God. So, you can't now say that God is from a tribe. I ain't never heard. Listen, as many arguments and battles I had about Jesus's God, you the first cat that ever told me that Jesus, excuse me, that God is from a tri... Christ. And so, to get back to your question, when you say that if Christ created all things, then you're saying Jesus created Jesus specifically. It says that nothing that has been made, right? But John 1 and 3, right? John 1 and 3 is the same thing as Colossians that we was just talking about. The Father? No. Because the Father gave Christ the power to do that. To do what? To create all things. Did He give Him the power to create Himself? He didn't have to create Himself because the Father... This is this is so idiotic. The Father... He didn't have to. When I'm saying "didn't have to create himself," I'm talking about the Most High. No, no. You said Jesus didn't have to create himself. No, because the Father created Him. But He, wait, hold on. It says that "all things that were made were made through Him except Him." Where does it say that? It doesn't say He created Himself. Where does it say He created Himself? That's that's a... That must be swine, man. That got to be pork cooking. That got to be pork. Precept, give a precept, man. Give it a precept. That got to be pork you cooking. No, because there's no scripture that He created Himself. He did not create Himself. So, what? Look, so, look, stop. If if there's no scripture that says that He, so that means always existed, then what we, then what we have to do is go by the scriptures that we have. And if the scriptures say, "Who is the the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation," and then it talks about all the things, which is just like John 1:3, it breaks down everything that He created, and then it says, "For it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell." Common sense, not Christianity, tells me the Father gave Him that power. And then you have to now translate that with other scriptures. So, the other scriptures of His glory, when He asked for His glory, He didn't take it back. He asked for it back. You say, "I ain't run away." You are. How did I... I've clearly just told you Colossians 1 and 9, once it says, "It pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell." That mean there's a Father looking at His Son saying, "I'mma give you this authority, cap." That's not... That's facts. That's two different entities. All right. One more time, cap, and then, and I'll ask you just one more time. Me was all things made through Jesus by by the Most High? Okay. So, all things, like First Corinthians 8, say it. Say it. So, all things by the Most High was created through Jesus. Was Jesus created by the Most High? So, then that would mean that Jesus, by the Most High, was created through Jesus, by the Most High. I feel sorry for you Christians, man. Sorry for you, man. You can't keep talking about style. You got to come up with something on your own. I'm also a showman, too. You know this. The chef. Hey, when he go back at debate, I'm going to see him copying everything anyway. But the Father, the Father got to pull from all the gra... The Father gave something to the Son. What he give him? The power. Where does it say that? "And it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell." If it dis... Could he take it from him? Huh? If it displeased him, could he take it from him? If it... So, number one, there's never going to be any displeasing or any... That doesn't help you. There can never be any displeasing in the Father and the Son. They're always in perfect un... That's impossible. I'm answering you. Look, this is your question. So, if it say "it pleased the Father," that mean he was pleased at creating Christ and then telling Christ to go do these things? Yes. But this is what this... Yes, I said yes, that. But but you ask me, "Can there ever be any displeasure in the from the Father and the Son to where He takes something away from the Son?" That there's never any... I don't mean that in a literal sense 'cause you don't read that 'cause He was obedient. What I'm saying is the fact that it says "it pleased Him," okay, that mean that that's something that the Father was pleased in His creation, pleased in what He saw in His Son, and then gave His Son the power to do those things. That doesn't answer my question. Through who was Jesus created? Christ? I'm... Excuse me. The Most High. Where does it say that? Give me the verse where it says that through the Most High, Jesus was created. Colossians 1 and 19. Colossians 1:19 just says that in Him, He saw, He was pleased that all... Fact. Have... Don't answer that. And if you go to Daniel, I think it's Daniel 7, when it talked about the Ancient of Days did sit, and then the Son of Man is coming before Him. The Son... The Most High has always been on His throne. Wait, hold on. The Most High there, the word is plural. When when you talk about the Ancient of Days on the throne? Well, in Daniel 7, when it mentions the Most High is in verse 18, 22. Well, every time you see the word "God" is is plural. You got to look at the context. Yeah, but who, who the Most High in Daniel 7? You have to tell me what verse you're talking about. So, I'm talking about... So, you got Daniel 7, like when we, when the Ancient of Days first appears, you see in verse 9. I'm talking specifically like when He's um sitting on the throne and then the Son of Man is being brought before Him. But how many thrones are mentioned? Well, there's two thrones. If you go to Revelation 3 and 21, when Christ says, "Them that..." I'm paraphrasing, "Them that endure, uh, will sit with Me on My throne, as I sit with My Father in His throne, even in the heavens." There's two thrones. So, if there's two thrones, you got God on one throne, and you got Christ on another throne, right? Absolutely. Now, now, with this, when it continues to go, it talks about how the Saints of the Most High, right? It says, "The Saints of the Most High." I think that's later down in the chapter. Yeah, later down. What I'm talking about. Yeah. What I'm talking about is the Ancient of Days is sitting on His throne, and then the Son of Man is coming to Him. Yeah, but my question is this, who's that Son of Man? Well, that's Jesus. My point, my point is this, though. Who are the Most Highs that is talking about? Most High. Show me. No, you got to show me. I don't... You got to show me what you're talking about. I'm not aware. Um, is it... It's in Daniel 7. I could probably find it quicker. Yeah, it's in Daniel. You got... Give me. That's Baba right here. Give me Baba. So, we go to Daniel 7, and we go to... I before... If you just pause, I think we should be both applauded for being able to go with 20, 40 minutes without pulling out one actual Bible verse, and everybody understanding and following. I think that's amazing in itself. 10 more minutes. 10 more minutes until this debate is done. All right. So, we go to... You say Dan 7? Yes, sir. Daniel 7. So, the one I was talking about, um, is verse 9, when it says, "And I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of Days did sit, whose garment was white as snow." That's the verse I was talking about. But you said there was another one. Yeah. So, when you continue to read down, as like, as, as you said, the yes, thrones, and, uh, maybe 22, until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High." Is that what you're talking about? Yeah, that's that's one. 18 is one too. Verse 18. It says, "But the Saints of the Most High shall take the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever and ever." You saying that word "Most High" is plural? I'm assuming in Hebrew. Let me pull my... Don't call me. Elohim? Or something like that. El... But Elohim is... No, not Elohim. It's like, um, not he. It's a a different, different type. 'Cause Elohim is plural in itself. For me, go to Bible Hub. I have a, uh, a Blue Letter app on my phone. So, I'm going to grab it. 'Cause Elohim is plural, always. That's why it's important in this context. So, you said Daniel 7 and 8? So, I'm going to go to the Interlinear. Interlinear. And he talk about El Yan. Yeah, you talk about the Most High. You talk about that. That's what the Most... That's that's the word. And then, and that word is in, in the plural. In, uh, but it says, um, 22. But it's in 22. You says, yeah, in 18, it's plural. But it's 18. It's not plural in 18. It is. Well, let me back up one. I'm going to show you. I ain't going to beat him up. Y'all, he say, "Let me show you." So, this is Daniel 7 and 18, right? Yeah. So, that's the... It says "L" there. So, when I click it, it goes to that. And it goes to "Most High." Then, um, those are the different definitions right there. Yeah, yeah. It gives it, it gives it the definition. Doesn't give part of speech. Say, "Biblical Hebrew plural of God." And then now, if I do the 22, if I go back one more, you said 22 as well. So, if I go to 22 right there, and I do the Interlinear, so you see right there, "Ancient of Days," "judgment," and "the Saints of the Most High," right there. Yeah. See, "Most High." So, I'm going to click that. And then you see it's the same word. Yeah, yeah. That's the def... That's the, that's the root word there, right? Right. Yeah. So, what I'm saying, word... Let me see. Let me see if I... Oh, you got like me, right? And say it's the masculine plural, right? That, that's what I showed you in here. Look, when I showed you down here, when I said, um, "Biblical Hebrew plural of God." Yeah. But Elohim and those... I'm going to switch back. But this is the word for the Most High. But all those words is, all those words are plural in Hebrew. No, it's not. Because there's this... What I'm saying, if you go to verse 27, it has "Most High" in the singular. And it also has "Most High." You said in Daniel 7 and 27? Yes, sir. And what, when, what I looked up, it was always singular. Which you're looking down at in the definitions that it can be plural. But you said Daniel 7 and 27? Yeah. Daniel 7:27, uh-huh. Um, so I'm going to go to the "Most High" there. That's also the same "El Yan." Now, when you look up the Strong's definition, or when you go down, "Biblical Aramaic," it'll tell you that the word is "Biblical Hebrew plural of God." But when you look up any of the words, Elohim or Yan, is 25. Daniel 7 and 25? Yeah. Daniel 7:25, it uses "Most High" in a singular. Uh-huh. And then, uh, uses, um, I'm assuming that's somebody telling you that. You talk about how it's written in Hebrew? Yes. It's... Which one is it in plural again? Give me that one. All right. So, in the plural, it's the Elohim. No. Which, no, no. Which verse? Yeah, yeah. Um, that's verse, that's verse 22 and verse 27. Okay. So, when I, I had went to 22 earlier, it says, "Until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given to the Saints of the Most High, and the time came that he that the Saints possessed him." There's nothing in this verse that will pluralize that concept. No, the word, the word "Most High" in the Hebrew is plural. It's it's Elohim. When... No, no, no. I get what you're saying. I don't have a problem with that because, as you can see right there, it's the same way. But when I, when I'm... I'm sorry, I didn't mean to do that. But what I'm saying is, El Yan, if I go to Psalms 83, for example, when it says, "Thou whose name alone art the Most High over all the earth," it's that same pluralized version that you say. That's Psalms 83? Yeah. Psalms 83, and the last verse, when it says, "That men may know that Thou whose name is Yahweh art the Most High over all the earth." You'll see the same thing. Let's see. So, Psalm at the to said 83? Yeah. See where it says... See it right here. I'm sorry, it's this one. I... Mic again. My bad. Turn it on. So, it's this one. See how we got the plural right there? See how it's plural? Where do you see the... I'm, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. See, and see, the Hebrew is written in plural. That's how it has the "on" there. Yeah, that's the "on" there. So, that verse is saying, yeah, so that that verse is saying that "Thou whose name alone art the the Most High over all the earth." So, even that, just because you see the "e" on the end of it, just like the Elohim, you see the "e" on the end of it, you have to look at the context. So, it's not... Right. No problem. So, in the Ancient of Days, you got the Ancient of Days and the Son of Man, who are ruling in heaven, and who all serve and worship. Nobody say that they don't rule together. Nobody. I never said that the Father don't rule with the Son. This kind... This subject is is Jesus God, and he's not. You have the throne that the Father sits on, and you have a throne that Christ has. Yeah. So, who, who's the Lord of Lords in heaven? Yeah. Who's the Lord of Lords in heaven? Well, the Most High is the Lord, period. Christ can have the... But there's one Lord, Jesus Christ. Christ. There's only one Lord. Remember, if I could tell why y'all slow, because when we read all throughout the the Old Testament and New Testament, you can see God or Lord used for the Most High. Once again, in First Corinthians the 8th chapter, as I explained, listening is an art. You can see that when it says, "To us, there is one God, the Father." That doesn't take away that you can't call Him Lord. That doesn't take away. And the same thing for the for the Son. Just because it says there's one God, the Father, it doesn't take away that the Son is also God. Thank you very much. It takes everything away. The whole point of that verse, if there was more than one God, it would say, "To us, there is Gods, the Father and the Son." And it wouldn't wrong. Listen, I wouldn't even fight it if that's what the scriptures say, but the script... The scripture don't say that. The scripture say there's one God. Well, we have had throughout this whole demonstration, Christ has only called Himself the Son of God in the Bible. That's not it. That's not the only thing He calls Himself. Like, here it is again. He called Himself Son of Man. Well, who's the Lord of Lords in heaven? Who's the Lord of Lords? Well, why don't you read to me what you're talking about? I'm asking the question. I'm asking you to read what you're talking about. Think you're... I'm just asking you. You're talking about... I'm just asking a question. And and here's why I'm asking the question. You just tried to pluralize El Yan, which is not... I'm not finished. Don't get, don't get too touchy. You just tried to pluralize El Yan to make a false point. When El Yan is plural, just like Elohim is plural. Okay. So, before I go down your rabbit hole, I just want the verse that you talk, like, paraphrase it. So, no. So, I didn't make the false point. I was using it. No, no. I'm talking about now, this this whole Lord of Lords thing. I know. So, you said that I just made a false point with the pluralization of Most High. No, I used it correctly because in the context, you have the Son of Man and you have the the the Ancient of Days, who are all sitting on their throne. And they're not the same throne, though, right? Correct. They have they have different thrones. They're next to the Father. But my question is, my question is... She needs to get in class. When you say they got separate thrones, if they got separate thrones, then they're not the same. They're not... They don't have the... They're not sitting on the same throne. No. Nobody's saying that the Son is the Father. There is a distinction. Jesus is God. Let me land. Let me land what I'm saying. Is that when I say Jesus, Jesus is... Look, this is what, and this is how, that's how we know that y'all slow, man. Because look at using my [ __ ] again. I got you, man. I got to. I got to pull from the gra... Yeah, you using it again. I got to pull from the gra... Look, I'm tell this how we know y'all slow. When you, you, you talk to Christians all the time, the Trinitarian Christians, all the time. They tell you, "We believe in one God, one God who exists as three distinct persons." That's not in the Bible. It is in the Bible. Okay. So, this, and this is what we're talking about today. Yeah, this what we talk. 'Cause that's not the verse. And we think we was going to use the whole hour. Yeah, I know. So, you asked me the verse about who, uh, who's the Lord of Lords in heaven? Yeah, I just, yeah, I just wanted your reference. Um, and the reason why I ask that is because, um, on Earth, the mo... Christ is going to have those titles. So, I wouldn't argue that on Earth. Yeah, but in heaven, I'm talking about the Lord of Lords in... Right. So, you got... I believe... Ain't nobody help me. Everybody helping. Give him the verse. Give him... He need help now. If I said, "Everybody shut up," y'all would think I was going crazy. Ain't nobody on my side yelled out verses. Let me battle. So, you got... I don't mind the ad-libs, though. So, you got Deuteronomy 10:17. Okay. Deuteronomy 10:17. It says that Yahweh is God of gods and Lord of lords. Right. But now, now take me where you going to bring this to Christ. Well, I'm just... I just want to affirm that He's the Lord of Lords in heaven. Where you going to bring me to about Christ? I'm, I'm... You asking for the recipe already. I'm... No, no. I thought you was bringing me. No, I thought you was bringing me to one verse and then taking me to the verse that you're actually going to ask me the question about. That's all. Yes. This is my question to you. You affirm that that the Most High, that God, right? Yahweh, is, you know, the Lord of Lords in heaven. Okay. So, then, if He's the Lord of Lords in heaven, can you get any higher than that? Anything higher than the Father? Can get any higher than the Lord of Lords in heaven? Nobody can be higher than the Father. My specific question is, can you get higher than being the Lord of Lords in heaven? The reason why I'm answering it that way is because anybody can have a title of being the Lord in heaven, just like 1 Corinthians 8:5 says, "Though there be many that be called Gods, whether in heaven or on Earth." So, I'm not taking away from anybody can have a title. Christ was called God, and He was the first chapter. But who's the Lord of Lords in heaven? The Father is the Lord of all. But can someone else have a title of being the Lord? Yes, we just read it in 1 Corinthians 8 and 6. So, that's why I'm asking you to just give me the scripture that you're talking about. We ain't got much time. I know, 'cause you're trying to stall. You're trying to stall. I wasn't stalling. I'm asking for the scripture. You stall. I gave you the scripture. You gave me Daniel 10:10. You gave me Deuteronomy 10:7. Can you be identified as the Lord of Lords in heaven? You can be. He's identified as the Lord, right now, based on First Corinthians. Is He the Lord of Lords in heaven? You would have to tell me what you're talking about. The question is, is Jesus the Lord of Lords in heaven? Can I get a scripture reference? The scripture reference is Deuteronomy 10, verse... That's not talking about Christ. Thank you. So, the question right now is, is J... So, show me the scripture that you're talking about in reference to Christ. Not answer my question. I did answer your qu... The only scripture you gave so far was Deuteronomy 10:17. I'm saying that's not talking about Christ. So, if you're telling me that Christ has this title, take me to the verse. So, who is it talking about? It's talking about the Most High. Okay. So, it's talking about the Most High. He's the Lord of Lords in heaven. Okay. So, you see, but the verse says, "For the Lord your God is God of gods and the Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty and terrible, with regard not the person, nor taketh the reward." That's what in context the text says. So, now, can you take me to a verse that... I don't know why we got to pull te... We already passed the time. It's okay. Yeah. So, if you go to Revelation, thank you. Right. You go to Revelation, you see that Jesus, you see that Jesus is called the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. Revelation what? Um, Revelation 19. 19 and what? Uh, 11 to 16. 11 through 16. Yeah, if you want to just... Here, you got, you got Revelation 17:14. So, now, this is so crazy, y'all. This is crazy. So, it says, "And I saw heaven open, and behold a white horse, and He that sat Him that sat upon it was called Faithful and True." So, now, He's called that, right? So, He's called Faithful and True. That's the name. That's right. That's right. And in righteousness He doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns, and He had a name written that no man knew but He Himself. Right. Yeah. So, He don't have a name we know, right? Or it talk about something different. Keep going. I'm going to keep going. I know this trying to dog walk you. And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God. So, everybody to pay attention. Verse 11, He's called two names, Faithful and True. Verse 12, He has no name. Verse 13, verse, verse says, "He has a name that no..." Excuse me. Let's let's be honest with the text. Verse 11 says, "His name is Faithful and True." Verse 12 says, "He has a name written that no man knew." So, nobody knows His name. In verse 12, keep on, keep on. He don't got no name. Nobody knows the name. This name specifically. I understand. They hurt. They... No, you playing, man. Verse 12 says He ain't got no name. We don't know the name. Let me say it better so y'all don't get back in. Verse 12, "He has a name that we don't know." Even though verse 11 says His name is Faithful and True. Nobody's going to say that's His real name, though. Important to the listener, that's not His literal name. So, everybody can pay attention. Verse 13, "And He was clothed..." I'm sorry. Yeah, no, I didn't read that. "And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God." Now, He got three names: Faithful, True, Word of God. And then He got a name nobody knows. Yeah, yeah. Then we going to go to 14, "And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in linen, white and clean." And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword. And just for the record, I'm only reading all these verses because he said, "All these verses." Verse 15, "And out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it He should smite the nations, and He should rule them with a rod of iron." And tread the wine press and the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. So, now, 15 is saying He's coming with the wrath of the Almighty God. He's not God. He's coming with the wrath of God. Wow. And on His vesture and on His thigh a name written, King of Kings, Lord of Lords. Now, how does that mean? Now, I'm glad I ain't in Christianity. That's terrible. I tell... It means break. Now, now go ahead. Break it down. Yeah. So, so you, so you acknowledge that the Lord of Lords in heaven was the Most High. And the first, the verse starts off with, "And I saw heaven open," and this person that He sees, not only is the Faithful and True one, but He's also the Word of God, and He's the King of Kings and Lord of Lords in heaven. That's not what it's saying. It's that's exactly what it's saying. That's not what it's saying. Exactly what it's saying. Come on, clap it up. That's not what it's saying. Let's get two minutes here. Let's get two minutes closing statements. 'Cause y'all already over an hour. Can I just take 15 seconds? Okay, 15 seconds. To minute closing statements. That didn't say that He was that in heaven. Yes, it gave Him many names. It gave Him the name Faithful and True. Then it says it has a name written that no man knew. So, if no man knows His actual name, how are you going to say because He has on His garment, "Lord of Lord" and "King of Kings," that that now means that's His name? It said on His vesture is the name. It doesn't say that is His name. It doesn't show me where it says that's His name. All right, two minute closing statements. Two minute closing statements. We're over an hour. We're over an hour. Tar logic went. Logic went. First. The last one you want to go first for the two minutes, and then he'll go last. Are we... Oh, okay. Two minute closings. But we got another, we got another round after this. A break. Yeah. Debate, though. Two minutes. Okay. No sweat. Uh, this is light work. Um, I do like logic. Good. This is light work. Once on the subject of Jesus being God, once you establish that Jesus has a God, once He says He has a God, once you got two thrones, one belongs to Christ, one belongs to God, you can't now say Jesus is God. And there's no verse in there that says there's this three, this Godhead of a Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And if there is, He didn't demonstrate that here. But we clearly demonstrated as that the Father gave something to the Son. We show that the Father, excuse me, that Christ didn't want to follow, excuse me, one of His own will, to not take the cup, but then took the cup 'cause He obeyed the Father. We saw the heavens open up and said, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." So, if you have a Son and a Father, that cannot be the same. I year with that. Okay. Real [ __ ] University, by the way. Two minutes. Start now. All right. So, yeah, I appreciate cap for this, man. This is fun. Yeah, it's dope. It's dope. So, guys, I, I hope that we saw what the problem was. The miscommunication was subordination versus nature. Cap was arguing subordination. I was arguing divine nature. And I tried to, you know, have him catch up with me, but, you know, he's a little too slow for that one. But, um, but, but, but in regards to that, what we showed was is that Jesus is the creator of all things, and that through Him nothing was made that has been made. And so, He Himself can't be created, or else He would have to create Himself, which we couldn't get an answer to that on today. Um, now, he asked me, you know, I'm going to use my random man in time. He said, "Show me where that's this name." Right? So, I'll read it again. So, this is Revelation 19:16. It says, "On His robe and on His thigh, He has a name written." What's the name, cap? Here it is: "King of Kings and Lord of Lords." Now, where is this happening? He says, "I see heaven open up, and He saw Him who was on the white horse coming with the wrath of God Almighty." And He says, "His name is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords." Earlier, he said that the Most High is the Lord of Lords. So, we see that Jesus, if He's the Lord of Lords, then He is the Most... There it is. The debate over, man. Going... Oh my God. Logic. [Music]