Transcription
You look right now at what's going on in the Middle East, all these peace treaties. It's a little scary, John. This has almost disappeared from the American church. That's, I believe, one of the greatest problems. Pastors themselves are not established in truth about end-time events. They are afraid to touch those events. There is a great big gapping hole in our life.
You mentioned something that I found to be quite interesting. People thought that the vaccine was the mark of the beast. Now they're talking about digital IDs being the mark of the beast. I want you to address and talk about this guy called the Antichrist.
What would happen if suddenly there was no church? And the Bible then says in verse 8, "And then that evil one shall be revealed." When the rapture occurs, when the church is evacuated, the Antichrist will already be on stage, but nobody will know who he is because the curtains are closed. But the moment the church is revealed, in that precise moment, the curtains are going to pull back, and that's when the spotlight's going to fall on him, and the whole world will know his identity.
Hey everyone, welcome to the Jambir podcast. We have a very special, uh, podcast today. As you can see, Ardan's not on with me, and that's because I'm joined by my longtime friend who I admire so much. I mean, this is amazing. He is a friend. We have shopped together. We have eaten and talked, and but yet I have so much respect for this man of God that I actually get a little giddy, a little starstruck when I'm around him. And that is because this man of God has done so much for the body of Christ. I remember when I was in my church just driving guest speakers around. He was already well-known in the body of Christ. And that is none other than Rick Rener, who moved to Moscow in the early '90s, late '80s, realizing that he might be martyred for his faith. But I have, I know no one who has studied the word of God, asking the Holy Spirit's help, more completely and soundly. He is a Greek theologian. I know he pro—that's probably not his formal title, but anytime I have questions on the Greek, I go to Rick. But Rick, I just want to say, what a pleasure it is to have you on the podcast. Our family loves Rick and Denise and your entire family so very much. We're so grateful for what you've done for the body of Christ. Welcome to the Jumb podcast.
Well, I'm glad to be with you, and everything you said about me, I could say about you. I, I love you. And by the way, I think you and Ardan are doing a great job. I love, I love what you're doing together.
The reason we are on today is we're here to talk about Rick's brand new book. Now, it's a couple months old. I, I was a little late because I was so busy writing a book that we kept scheduling this and rescheduling it, but it's the rapture, the Antichrist, and the tribulation. I just want to say that I have gone through a good section of this book. It is the most comprehensive, scripturally sound book that I have seen on the second coming of Jesus, in particularly the catching away of the church, the Antichrist, and the tribulation. Rick, I just want you to go. I'm going to interject. I'm going to ask questions. I might bring some, some of the things that God is dealing with me about in it. But tell me, how does this progress? You have rapture, you have Antichrist, you have tribulation. Talk to our viewers right now about where we are in God's time clock.
Can I begin by telling you about my personal experience with this subject?
Yes. Well, I grew up as a Southern Baptist, and every year we had revival meetings in our church, usually twice a year. And usually, one of the nights, the evangelist would preach on the rapture, and John would scare the wits out of me. I mean, it would make me question my salvation, make me wonder if I was really saved. And it seemed like the whole subject of the rapture was so scary. And the Bible says you're supposed to comfort one another when you talk about the rapture. Well, I didn't find it comforting at all. And then when I came to the university, and I was studying journalism, and I was studying classical Greek, a book came out that kind of debunked the rapture and tried to say that it was a, a creation that took place in the 1900s and the 1800s, that it really wasn't apostolic teaching, and people were dividing over the subject of the rapture. And I thought, you know what? I'm going to stay away from this subject. I don't want to lose anybody I could reach. And it seems like it scares people, or it's a lightning rod that divides people. And John, I ran from this subject for 40 years.
I did the exact same thing. I used to brag about how I wouldn't preach a message on the second coming. I would even say it from the pulpit. I don't talk about this because I did. I saw the way it divided people, and it was a trigger. But go ahead. I, I just, I, I think I find that amazing. But go ahead.
Well, then during COVID, I began to listen to what people were saying, and I heard somebody say, somebody that I love and respect very much, but they said, "You need to be careful because the vaccine is the mark of the beast." Well, if people don't want to take the vaccine, fine. I mean, that's their choice. But it's not the mark of the beast. And I thought, you know, people are so confused about end-time things. And I felt like maybe it's finally time for me to step into this arena. And John, you and I are almost the same age. I'm a little bit older than you, but you know, when you finally reach a certain age, you kind of, you have a platform where you can address a subject. And we're not trying to garner an audience. We're not trying to get likes. We're just trying to speak as God's spokesman to address an issue that needs to be addressed. And so that's why I decided to step into this arena. And I begin first of all to address the argument that the word rapture does not appear in the Bible because that's a big argument. People say, "Oh, that word, that word's not even in the Bible."
So where does the word rapture come from?
Well, it is a Latin translation of the Greek word harpazo. So St. Jerome crawled up in a cave in Bethlehem, right next to the place where Jesus was born. And for 23 years, Jerome created the first translation of the Holy Scriptures into the Latin language. The first—
Right?
And when he came to that word harpazo, which means to catch away, he translated it as the Latin word rapture. Well, his work was so monumental, it ruled for a thousand years.
Yes.
And so that word rapture found its way into vocabulary and it stuck. But it's actually a translation of a Greek word which means to be abducted, to be caught up, to violently seize. It describes something very, very abrupt. And I document in that book how Jesus used the word rapture, the Greek word harpazo, 12 or 13 times in the Gospels. And it always means the very same thing. For example, the kingdom of God is advancing, and the violent do what? Take it by force. Force. That's the word harpazo translated rapture.
And so it really describes a moment when Jesus is going to descend into the lower atmosphere. Paul describes this in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. There's going to be the sound of a trumpet. There's going to be the voice of the archangel. And Jesus is going to harpazo. He's going to seize his church and literally evacuate us from planet Earth. Now, there are people who say that's a pipe dream. That's a fantasy. But John, they don't know the Bible because the Bible is filled with raptures. Enoch was raptured. Elijah was raptured. Jesus was raptured. It's, it's not a new concept, but for God to do it with one, or to do it with all of us at one time, it's not, it's not a big feat for the Lord. But that really is coming in the near future. And that's probably the next big event. What do you think?
I couldn't agree more with what you've said, and it's interesting that our paths have been the same. Um, I felt an absolute urge of the Holy Spirit to start talking about the second coming. What I found out is that it makes us purer. It keeps us untethered from the world. It keeps us with the awareness that we are strangers, pilgrims, and sojourners passing through this world, and that our real home is with Jesus, where he is. That's where we will be. He actually said that. We're going to take a break in the conversation. I, I will get right back to it quickly, but I want to talk to you about how I study my Bible. I mean, for decades, I've used Logos. And in fact, for this podcast, I actually was in, using the AI feature. Ardan, talk about it.
Yeah. I mean, Logos will just take your Bible study just so much deeper. It will give you the amazing context, the understanding, and they have actually have two offers. Number one is, it is completely free for any of our listeners that are listening. They can sign up and get free for up to 60 days. Then the other offer is, if, if you already have Logos, they have a massive resource bundle that actually includes a lot of our resources that they're selling for 90% off. And so they can find all of this information over at logos.com/bee. And I want to make sure all of you understand the AI does not pull from the internet. It pulls only from your books that you have in your library on Logos. So when I say I used it, I asked it the question, and it gave me the scripture references and what the commentary says on it really quickly. I didn't use it to do my outline of my notes. I used it to be able to enhance what I was already going to say to you. So this is where it will greatly help you if you're doing personal studies or if you're teaching a small group. I encourage you, please go to logos.com and sign up today.
And so I, I am first of all amazed at how many people make light of it, mock it, make fun of it. And Peter told us this would happen. There would actually be scoffers and mockers. Say, "Come on. Everything's remained the same since the fathers fell asleep." That, and, and what I find that is interesting is Peter said, "Most importantly, I want you to remember first of all, they're going to come along. And second of all, a day with the Lord is a thousand years." But Rick, in your book, you talk about something that really caught my attention, something that I haven't heard anybody else discuss.
Well, what was it?
It's where Paul writes two times, "We who are alive and remain shall be caught up with the Lord." The word alive and the word remain. Could you amplify that for our viewers?
I will. And John, it really took me off guard because I did not know what those words meant. And when you read them in the Greek, they are verbatim, word for word, repeated twice. Well, you know that when something's repeated twice in a very fast sequence, you need to stand up and really pay attention.
Right? The word alive is a form of the word zoe, which means to be filled with gusto, zest, life, vibrancy. And it's plural, and it really describes the living ones, the vibrant ones, those that are really engaged, really spiritually alive. It's not just those that are alive at this time, but it's the living ones, the ones that are really on fire, really alive. Then when you come to those that remain, it's kind of an explanation about the vibrant ones. That word remain is the Greek word which describes a small piece of fabric. It's really the word for a remnant left over from the greater amount of material. So the bigger amount's gone. It's been lost. It's been used up for some reason. It's been thrown away. And now a little remnant remains. And it's also a word that was used militarily to describe a group of soldiers who lasted longer than anybody else. When everybody else bailed out and ran away, this was the group who stayed on the front lines to the very end. And so when you put these two words together, which Paul repeats twice, it really means the living ones, those that are spiritually engaged and are vibrant. I'm talking about the ones that will still be remaining, who have lived through it all, not surrendered, and have remained engaged to the very end, the remnant at the very end. And John, it really implies that it might be a remnant. And for me, this really brought, uh, light on what Jesus said about when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth? And that word find—
Wow.
—is the Greek word euriskō. It describes a real serious investigative search. It means that when Jesus comes, he's going to have to really look for living faith. And, well, if you put that together with what Paul said, he's coming for those that are engaged, and it's probably not going to be a very big group.
There's another scripture. I mean, there's so much that comes to mind as you talk about this. First of all, I noticed this church called Sardis. Jesus says in the New Living Translation, "You have a reputation for being alive, but you're dead." I'm like, "Whoa." He's not talking to the city. He's talking to this church. So, what gives a person a reputation for being alive? They have cutting-edge music. They have cutting-edge, you know, services. People are flocking in. Yet, they have this reputation for being alive, but they're dead. But then Jesus makes this very interesting statement. And he says, "If you don't change, you don't change, I'm going to come to you as a thief in the night."
Mhm.
But then I go over to when Paul writes to the Thessalonian church, and he says, "This day is not going to surprise you because you're sons and daughters of the light." Then I also think about the 10 virgins. Five of them have enough oil in their vessels to make it to the end. The other five have enough oil in their, have enough oil to get along for a time period, but at the end, they don't have enough. Kind of adds to what Jesus says, "To him who endures to the end shall be saved." Now, I'm going to say all of that before I turn this back over to you is, I don't believe in a fear-based eschatology. I believe in a faith-based eschatology. I personally find that there are people, and I believe this about the unwise virgins, they're going to do whatever they think is required to be saved because maybe they possibly don't have a passionate heart that's in love with Jesus. And I look at the virgins that do have enough oil, and could it be that they laid down their lives because Jesus is saying to churches, "Buy for me gold refined in fire. Buy from me white garments." And so I know I've just said a lot, but I want to throw a lot on the table for you to work with because I, and I want to end it with this. I want to end it with the fact that how can the Thessalonian church, how can Paul write to them and say, "But it won't happen as a thief in the night for you. You won't be taken by surprise because you're children of the light." And how can Jesus say to a church, "I'm going to come to you as a thief if you don't change." Any thoughts on this?
Well, I think one was alive and one was sleeping. You know, the, the Thessalonian church, when Paul wrote to them, they were still new believers. And you know what, John? Scholars believe that when Paul was in Thessalonica, he was not with them more than eight weeks. That's not very long.
No, it's not.
And in eight weeks, you would think that he would just deal with the very basics of salvation. But when he wrote to them in 2 Thessalonians, he said, "You already know about all this eschatology because I told you about all of it when I was there." Wow. So if Paul did that with new believers in eight weeks, we need to be doing this. But when you come to the church of Sardis, that's a completely different question because they had a reputation that they were alive. They were living on a past reputation. But Jesus said, in reality, you're dead. And the word dead is the word for a corpse. You're as dead as a corpse. You're just a cadaver. So they had already lost the life. They had lost what they once had, and now they were living on the reputation of what they once were. And I think that our faith has to be engaged. And I'll give you an example from, from my life. Just recently, there were many predictions, as you're well aware, that Jesus was going to come during the Feast of Trumpets sometime between September the 23rd and the 25th. Well, I do not believe in date setting, but every broken clock is correct twice a day. So if you make a prediction Jesus is coming, eventually somebody is going to be right along the way. So I thought, all right, well, what if they are right? What if, what if Jesus is going to come on September 23rd, 24th, or 25th? And you know what? As I begin to think about that, I begin to think, you know, if I really had a date that I thought that he was coming, I think that I would just straighten up in a lot of areas of my life. It would affect my prayer life. Um, I couldn't think of anybody I needed to forgive, but if I needed to, I certainly would have done it. I mean, I would want to be vibrant when he is coming. And I think the church of Thessalonica was vibrant. I mean, they, in eight weeks, Paul pounded that theology into them that Jesus was coming very quickly, and they were living for that. Whereas the church of Sardis, 30 years had passed. Jesus hadn't come, and they were kind of living on the fumes of a past movement.
Wow.
Isn't that amazing?
Yes, it is. You know, when I was in, uh, Brazil in 2016, I was asked to speak to 12,000 pastors and leaders of a church movement. The church movement has over 300,000 people. And I remember when I walked into that arena with just the pastors and home group leaders, and there was 12,000 of them, and they were blowing the roof off the arena. I mean, you talk about alive. So the next day, I'm having lunch with eight of the top pastors, and we're talking, and I said, "Guys, I just need to ask, how many people are in your churches?" And they said, "Well, over 300,000. We don't even know, but we do know for sure it's over 300,000." I said, "So when did, when did this movement begin? I said, "Did it begin like 120 years ago? Who's the founder?" And they said, "Oh, well, you met the founder last night. Pastor Alou is his name. And he said he couldn't be at this lunch because he had another appointment, but he started this entire church network 16 years ago with just his family." And Rick, I literally put down my fork and I said, "How in the world do you build a church network of over 300,000 people in a country, a first-world country, in just 16 years?" And the pastor was sitting across the table, he spoke the best English. And he said, without even hesitating, he goes, "It's because we teach our people on eternal rewards and losses, the resurrection of the dead, and our positions in the millennial kingdom." I said, "Wait a minute. What? What?" And he goes, "John, look. He said, "I go to a lot of American conferences because I speak good English. I get asked to speak at these conferences." He said, "I've noticed something different about the American church and our church." He said, "The American church has a 70 or 80-year perspective." He said, "Our people have an eternal perspective because we put that in them." And I remember thinking to myself, the resurrection of the dead, eternal rewards, and judgment is number five and six of the foundations of our faith. And I thought, it's the elementary teaching. And what do you get in elementary school? How to read, write, add, subtract, right? How do we build our life, okay, build our educational life of high school and college without knowing how to read, write, add, or subtract? So, if you're a church that's 30 years old and you've been building for 30 years, not knowing how to read, write, add, or subtract in the spirit because you're avoiding maybe one of the most important things. I, I, I mean, it's, it's a foundation of our faith. Maybe that's the big difference between Thessalonica and Sardis. And maybe that's the big difference between the American church and the Iranian church, the Brazilian church, is that we're not emphasizing the second coming of Jesus as much. And what's your thoughts on that? I mean, it, it shocked me, Rick. It really did.
John, this has almost disappeared from the American church. Yes, I know. That's, I believe it's one of the greatest problems. You know, if you walked into a classroom and you saw a man that was 60 years old sitting at a little tiny desk in a room of first graders and found out he had been sitting in that little chair for 40, 50 years, you would not think that's cute. You would think that's sad. That's the condition of the American church. They're still in first grade. They've not been taught. And I'm a pastor, and I love pastors. So, I am not knocking pastors. But John, your ministry is messenger. We are God's messengers. We are to speak on behalf of the Lord. And the verse-by-verse teaching of the scripture, which you do so well, and I want to say thank you for what you do, it has almost disappeared from the church. It's like an art form that nobody even knows. And I believe that one of the problems is that pastors themselves are not established in truth about end-time events. They are afraid to touch those events. I think a lot of pastors are afraid that if they do touch those events, they might lose some people from their church, or they might scare somebody. And so they've kind of backed off on this when, in fact, John says in 1 John chapter 3, that when you have this hope in you, it purifies you. It purifies you. And when we don't have the verse-by-verse teaching of the scripture, and when we're not established in end-time events, there is a great big gapping hole in our life. And right now, I'm addressing this subject. You're about to address it in one of your new books. And I'm so glad about your book that you're going to be releasing about this. And you want those that are addressing the rapture, the second coming, end-time events right now, there's a flood of people coming to us because they want somebody to address these questions, and they want it to be somebody they can trust.
And they're foundational. Let me ask you this, because you, you mentioned something that I found to be quite interesting. People thought that the vaccine was the mark of the beast. Um, now they're talking about digital IDs being the mark of the beast. Um, I want you to address and talk about this guy called the Antichrist.
Okay?
He's, he's only called that one time in First John, but he's called, you know, the man of lawlessness, the man of sin. I mean, we, there's so many names for him. I want you to amplify because I personally don't feel we're even going to know who he is as a, as a vibrant church. And that's why I kind of go, why are you saying this is the mark of the beast? Could you, could you kind of expound on that?
Well, in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, Paul says that day is not going to come until there's a falling away first. This is what you and your son recently talked about. That was so excellent. And that word falling away, some people today are trying to say that describes the rapture of the church. It does not. That is so silly. It's the Greek word apostasia, which always describes a mutinous attitude or a rebellion. So Paul says, you're going to know when you've come to the very end of the age because there's going to be a world modification that takes place. The world's going to begin to throw away the law of God. It's going to be modified until it's almost like in society, there's a worldwide mutiny against the law of God. Well, we're living in that day. And when you go on further, Paul talks about the great restrainer. In Greek, it is the word katechō. The word kata means down. The word echō means to hold. It's the one who holds down, the one who suppresses, the one who's stalling, putting on the brakes. And the Bible says, "Whoever this restrainer is, he's holding back the appearance of the Antichrist." And then when you get to 2 Thessalonians 2:7, it says, "The one that is restraining will continue to restrain until," and here's the clencher, "he be taken out, be taken out of the way." And when you read that in the Greek text, it says, "Until he's removed from the midst of everything."
Well, who's in the midst of everything?
Wow.
We are. We're in society. We're in the medical field. We're educational world. We are everywhere. But what would happen if suddenly there was no church? If there was no restrainer holding evil at bay, it would just rush in like a mighty force. And the Bible then says in verse 8, "And then that evil one shall be revealed." And the word then means then, at that precise moment, that evil one, not just any evil one, but that evil one. There's a definite article, the evil one will be revealed. And the word revealed is a form of the word apocalyptō. It describes the pulling apart of curtains. And here's what it means.
Wow.
It means when the, when the rapture occurs, when the church is evacuated, the Antichrist will already be on stage, but nobody will know who he is because the curtains are closed. But the moment the church is revealed, in that precise moment, the curtains are going to pull back, and that's when the spotlight's going to fall on him, and the whole world will know his identity. Well, both the Antichrist and the mark of the beast, then it all follows the rapture of the church. Now, again, you and I are about the same age, so we remember growing up, people were guessing who's the Antichrist. They thought Yasser Arafat. They were just sure that was the Antichrist. Then everybody was sure it was Gorbachev because he had that mark on that mark on his head.
Henry Kissinger.
Henry Kissinger. Oh, it's got to be Henry Kissinger.
I mean, the list is long. And today, the guessing game continues. And you know what? It's a moot point. Nobody will know who he is until the church is gone. And the moment we are removed, that curtain's going to pull apart, and this man is going to—
Okay, there's going to be, there's going to be some people are going to argue with you, Rick. They're going to say, "Uh, hey, in my New King James Version, it says the restrainer is He, capital H. That's got to be the Holy Spirit." Uh, talk about that.
Well, that's, that's pretty, that's, that's a mystery because when you read that text, the restrainer is referred to with a masculine, a feminine, and a neuter. It's amazing. But if you look at it, it can only be the church. Okay, John, in the, in the beginning, the early church thought it was the Roman Senate that was holding back the emperor. They really believed that. Well, that obviously wasn't right. Then they thought, um, it's Michael the Archangel because Michael the Archangel in scripture always deals with evil. And then there was the thought that it's the preaching of the gospel. Well, we know the preaching of the gospel does, it does drive back darkness. Then there was the thought that it's the Holy Spirit, but it can't be the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is never going to be removed from the earth. There's going to be people saved during the tribulation, and you can't be saved without the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
That's what I wanted you to say. He'll, I mean, the Holy Spirit will always be here. The only one that's going to be removed from the middle of everything, it can only be the church.
Think about how narcissistic society would become without the influence of the church.
Like that.
It would be, I mean, there would be no more first, what do you call it? Red Cross. There would be no probably no, uh, nursing homes. Our hospitals would be like almost like places that if you're in this condition, they're just going to let you die. I mean, it is the compassion of God in the church that is, I believe, restraining the, the, the force of lawlessness. And Rick, something you didn't say that I'm, I, I want to make sure everybody knows is the translators of the New King James took the liberty to put capital H. It does not read that way in the Greek. Am I correct or incorrect in what I just said? And please feel free to say no, John, you're incorrect.
No, you're correct. And that's, but in the RIV, which is the Renter Interpretive Version, I call it the force that's holding it all back.
It's us, John. It's us.
Because it's an entity.
It's an entity. But you know what? We are getting really close. Now, you and I haven't talked about this, so I don't know if maybe I'm treading on bad ground, but if you look right now, what's going on in the Middle East, all these peace treaties, it's a little scary. And the Bible says when everybody says peace and safety, beware.
Peace and safety.
Because destruction is right on the heels. And I believe we're living, uh, John, we are living right on the very cusp of all this stuff taking place. And the truth is, you know, you can, you can cook a frog, and he doesn't know he's being cooked. I think we're probably living in the very depths of it already that we don't realize it because we're just in it every day, and we become numb to the reality of what we're experiencing. But we are really living the fulfillment of what prophets prophesied. And think how privileged we are that God is allowing us to be the ones to be here. When I was growing up, we played tag. Did you ever play tag?
Yes.
I loved to play it until I got tagged. But you know, somebody has to be the last generation. And God has tagged us. He said, "Tag, you're it. You're going to play the game at the end of the age." And that's us. That is—
Let's, let's talk about Harpazo. Okay. So, the dead in Christ are going to be raised. Then we, together with them, are going to be caught up with the Lord in the clouds, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Therefore, comfort one another with these words. How is the world going to respond? Now, I'm, I'm getting into, into kind of conjecture territory right now. Okay. How's the world gonna answer the people that, if that, you know, tens of millions of people have suddenly disappeared, they're gone. How's the world going to handle that? Do any insight on that? And I realize this is pure conjecture right now.
Well, 2 Thessalonians 2 says that God's going to send them a spirit of delusion.
Correct.
Well, when you're deluded, you can't see things straight. So probably in a deluded state, they're going to think that somehow the universe has evaporated those people that are standing in the way of progress, or a lot of people are even speculating that there will be, uh, the story that UFOs have evacuated all these people. John, I don't know. I mean, there are so many possibilities, but the fact is, we're going to be evacuated. We really are.
Correct. And those who scoff at us for believing that don't realize they're fulfilling scripture every time they scoff. Because in the last days, mockers shall come. Every time they mock at us, they're fulfilling 2 Peter chapter 3. But John, I'm so glad we won't be here during that time. Okay. So Jesus said, "The gates of hell shall not conquer, overcome the church." I mean, I, I look at the assassination of Charlie Kirk. A seed went into the ground. Rick, you may not know this, but there were 1,500 of his Turning Point USA chapters in schools when he was shot. The day he was shot. Do you know now there's over 80,000? 80,000 chapters of Turning Point USA? The church cannot be stopped. There are, I mean, more people being martyred in this generation than ever before. And it's probably because there are more people on the earth. But there is tribulation that the saints are going through. It's not the tribulation because the tribulation is the wrath of God. However, I look at, at what's happening in the earth right now, and the church can't be conquered. But yet, we're told this guy, this man of sin, is going to be able to conquer, and he's going to be given permission by heaven to literally destroy whatever he wants to destroy. And he's going to destroy the saints. Now, people are going to argue. They're going to say, "Well, see, the saints are going to be here, and we're going to be, you know, having to hide, and he's going to be annihilating people." How do you explain that?
It's talking about, it's talking about tribulation saints. It's those that are saved during the tribulation. It's a completely different subject. The church is already gone. Those are the people that are going to be saved during the tribulation. And it could also refer to Israel. The Bible says he's going to wear them down. I mean, he's really going to wage war against them because they don't take the mark of the beast. They don't swear their allegiance to him. So, he's all out after them. And, but that's, that's a different time period. That's not you and me.
But you know what, John? Some people say, "Well, okay, Rick, you believe in a pre-trib rapture. What if it's post-trib? What if it's at the end of the seven years?"
Well, then we were all wrong by just a few years. Big deal. It's no big. We're talking seven years or three and a half years if you're a mid-tripper. Who cares? The fact is Jesus is coming. And you know that—
The man who trained me in ministry, he said, "Rick, here's the way you answer people."
Say it like this. We believe in a pre-trib rapture. However, it's going to get so dark before the rapture happens, you're going to feel like you're living in the tribulation. And that's a pretty safe answer, and I believe that is the truth.
I do too.
You know, I was listening, I was listening to you the other day, and I was thinking, boy, John is really swimming upstream against the current because there's a lot of talk that, you know, it's just life is going to get better, and the church is going to get better, and there is going to be a visitation. We know that, and there currently is a visitation. But you're really talking about how society is also going to get dark as we go forward. And John, we need to keep our head on straight. I mean, we need to pay attention to what the Bible says, and we need to really undergird ourselves for what's coming in the days to come.
Well, the thing that you said earlier, you know, we're both about the same age. You just, you don't care about clicks, you don't care about how many followers, you care about the truth being declared, and you care about people. Um, I know when, before I was 50, what I would look at first when I went to a conference is how many people are attending, or if I went to a church, how many people attend this church? It's so funny when, sometime in my 50s, first thing I looked at is how well-loved is the pastor's wife? What are, what are his children like? And I started realizing the more important things. And, um, you just, you kind of get something that only age gives you when you walk with God consistently for years, decades, right?
Yep.
And I, I, I'm not interested in people. I mean, Lisa just came up to me and said, "Do you realize that your son had about 10 people that came up to him at this conference recently and said they didn't like what you were saying on your podcast?" I said, "No, I didn't know that." And I had to just say to myself, I don't care because I love people enough to tell them the truth. And I know you love people enough to tell them the truth. And Rick, what really intrigued me when you started talking about this, cuz you did about a two years ago, I noticed, and I've listened to you so many times now, is I thought Rick couldn't care less if he loses followers. He couldn't care less because his love for humanity is so much greater than his love for having followers. And I wish all the leaders in the body of Christ would get a love for humanity that's greater than the love for how many are following us. I don't find a lot of people following Jeremiah. I don't find a lot of people really adhering to and sticking close with John the Baptist. I find them coming out to listen because there's an anointing on them. But I, I just, I just hope and pray, and this is my prayer when I'm praying, God, raise up leaders who all they care about is what you say. I don't care about what people say. They love people enough to tell them the truth. And it's, it's what I think a lot about. I think a lot about the fact that Jesus talks about deception so much right before his second coming, that the love of many are going to grow cold because lawlessness is going to abound, and love, the word love being agape. I'm so concerned about a church, an American church right now that's been lulled to sleep, and with all my heart, I want to see them woken up. I don't want to see them entertained. I don't want to see them comforted when there is no comfort, because God said to Jeremiah, "You say peace, peace, when there is no peace. You are healing their wounds superficially." We have got to start speaking the word of God that may cut, that may operate. I, I'm sure everybody that goes under the knife when a surgeon takes out what's going to kill them doesn't like it at the time, but boy, five, five months later, they're so pleased with what that surgeon did to lengthen their life on earth. And I just want to, I, I just want you to pray because I carry this burden so heavily for our American church, that God would give us leaders. Rick, you moved over there knowing that you'd probably be martyred. You could be martyred. You may not be. I believe you're going to be raptured personally. But we need leaders, not politicians. Politicians are concerned about what people think. Leaders are concerned about what God's saying. And they're concerned about the people because the people are more important to them than whether they're received or not received, whether they're popular or not popular. Will you pray for us that we, God would give us leaders in this country?
You know, John,
with hearts like that,
it's not about me and it's not about you. It's not about us. It's about the people. It's about the people we're speaking to.
Yes, it is.
And, and it's about being accountable to say what God tells us to say. You know, we've already been there and done that. Tried to build our ministry, build popularity, do this, do that. Already been there, already done that. And this, I think it's one value of age. You kind of learn, we've already done that. Now let's do what's important. Let's, let's hear what God has to say, and let's do our best to represent exactly what he says and not to say anything else. And that's what I so appreciate about you. But yes, I will pray. Father, I thank you in the name of Jesus, first of all, for John and Lisa. I thank you for their boys, Lord. Their family is so much like my family. Thank you for Denise. I thank you for my boys. Father, thank you that you've given us the privilege to speak the word of God. Help us, Lord, to live this season of our life, the best season, to faithfully speak what people need to hear.
Yes. And Holy Spirit, you come with your anointing, and you don't butcher anybody. Even when you bring a hard word, you bring such an anointing that they can receive it. And we pray that you help us to speak the truth with such an anointing that people will say, "Wow, that hurts, but that feels good. I needed that." Help us, Lord. I thank you for that, Father. And again, Lord, I say thank you for John. I pray, Lord, that you would magnify his voice because he's speaking truth in the name of Jesus. Amen. And Father, I just thank you for Rick, Denise, and their boys and their ministry. Lord, they are impacting the Russian world, the Russian-speaking world in such a profound way. I'm asking that you would continue to amplify and magnify their voice in that nation, in that world of the Russian-speaking beautiful Slavic people. I'm also asking that you would magnify and amplify his voice in this nation, the United States. And Father, we just ask, give us leaders, give us shepherds that have hearts after you that will speak the word of God faithfully and declare the truth because they love people more than they love themselves.
Yes. And Father, we agree on this, and we thank you for it in the mighty name of Jesus. Amen.
Amen.
Amen.
All right. So, we can get this book on Amazon. Correct?
Correct.
Hit the link in the description. That's going to get you to the book. I want you to get this book. Rick,
can I tell you, we're out of time. I know you had a, a certain amount of time that you could talk. We could talk for hours and hours and hours. There were actually questions I wanted to ask that I didn't even get to, but, um, any final words before we close?
Let's just be faithful.
Let's just be, let's just be faithful. What Jesus, Jesus said, "What I say to you, Peter, I say to all. Watch." Which watch means we remain in a state of readiness, prayer, and we're busy and we're active about what God has called us to do in our worlds of influence.
I love it. Rick, it's been a great pleasure. Thank you so much for taking the time to write this book. By the way, everybody, there are so many beautiful illustrations and pictures and just study aids in here. It is a world of wealth. A wealth that I believe is going to keep your lamps burning brightly so that when the King comes, as John the Apostle said, we won't be ashamed at his appearing, but we will have confidence. Amen.
Amen.
Rick, love you. God bless you. Have a great day, sir.
Love you, John.