Boogaloo Traditions Interview (Damon Frost)

Ready or not, here we come. Getting down on the one, which we, while I was at just deu, I kind of, I realized that, well, I've known that we, me and Rashad, are kind of like the guys that have done a lot of research as far as like different approaches to the Baloo dance and to popping and like we, we try to honor everyone's traditions, yeah, equally and share those stories, you know. And I, I realize that that's what people look to me for when I'm out there. A lot of the, a lot ofers, yeah, they're like, "What these guys know about many different stories?" And so like I'm kind of like just assuming that role.

So this, this interview series, I want to call it like "Bugaloo Traditions" just because it's about honoring the many traditions that were spawned out of the bugaloo movement, like as far as like the bugaloo dance in Oakland and what, what spread from there and different cities calling it different things. And like I'm starting this interview series to kind of get a, a perspective from people that were there in the different cities and talk about like what the dance looked like to them, what it was, what they called it, what words they used. And, uh, also to just document people's stories, 'cause there's a lot of people that, um, maybe like I consider them unsung heroes, you know, like people that aren't maybe quite as famous, but their stories just as important as anyone else. And so the idea of the, uh, the interview series is to, to document people's stores and see like, you know, what did they call it, what was it like, and, and all of that.

So, um, I guess maybe we could just start, like, for people that don't know, if you could just like introduce yourself and say like, where, where you were from, when you started Boogaloo or popping, and when that was.

All right, let me see. Uh, uh, hello. Uh, my name is Damon Frost and, uh, I was born in Los Angeles and moved away from Los Angeles with my mom at the age of four and pretty much traveled, uh, up and down California, Hawaii, and hopped over to Europe a little bit. So, uh, I was born 1965. So, um, let me see. My first introduction to this, uh, dance style, I guess, would be the robot and all the gazillions of variations of the robot that I had seen everywhere from TV, from, um, house parties of friends, all through my life.

Uh, uh, the, the Frost family, uh, my dad's side of the family, uh, he has siblings in San Diego and he has friends in Southern California, and his mom lived in Northern California in Berkeley. So I would be, uh, kind of doing the circuit between all places. Uh, my grandmother on my mother's side, uh, lived in Alhambra, and that's, uh, Southern California, next to Pasadena. So I, I, I kind of got like a, a, a picture of California from, from down south and above.

Ah, okay. So, um, the things that I saw, what was just like a whole bunch of different robot styles, okay? And, uh, given the age that I was, let me see, until about 1975, um, right when I'm like nine and 10 years old, the people are doing so many different robot styles that I'm calling it "the robot" just because I, I don't know any better. And some people are calling it other names. And some people are, "You're doing that, that can, you know how to do this dance?" Like, kind of, you know? And, and, and I never really heard like a very specific exact name for it until, uh, I, I moved to the, the Bay Area.

Okay. I, uh, my dad lived, uh, in Berkeley because he was taking care of his mom, and, uh, I was traveling all over the place with my mom and lived in Hawaii. And I was, was going back and forth between Hawaii and, and Berkeley. Yeah. And as a fourth grader at Columbia, excuse me, Columbus, uh, Elementary School, uh, I saw people dancing like, like, uh, doing sort of like, uh, synchronized steps and, and people trying to like really, like, make their stops really clean. I can't remember the first time I heard the word "diming," but it was like really, really early on. Sometimes people would say just "diming." Sometimes people would say, uh, "busting." "Oh, you bust, you bust." Sometimes people would say, uh, let me see. I remember especially around the Rick James "Busting Out" of L7 that, like, a lot of people were saying "busting" then. So that's kind of like a, that was like a, a popular phrase that wasn't just for dancing. It just meant like anybody, you know, kind of had a, a similar meaning to like the word "break," you know, like "breaking out," like just breaking into something crazy, like "busting," busting into something. Very, very similar.

But like on the California Funk side, uh, uh, at the time, when Shalamar and Jody Watley finally started getting, uh, well-known and stuff, and they were on TV shows then, people were calling it "Shalamar-ing," stuff like that. And incorporate some of the stuff from, uh, from their, uh, what's the word, from, from, from their vocabulary and some of the stuff that they did. Like they, they would do some, some silly stuff, but it was all based on the robot. But I've heard it change names over the years, you know. I've heard people say "strut." The, in San Francisco, like when we would go across the bay to dance, they'd be like, "You strut." You know? When I go to Sacramento, uh, some of the members of my crew in the early '80s, they were called the Master City Breakers from, uh, the Bay Area. And, uh, they had, they used to live in Sacramento, so they had family in Sac, and they'd go to Sac and they'd show me all the Sac styles. So my, one of my, my big influences is a guy named Chris. We used to call him, um, Toy Master from Master City Breakers. And, uh, Derek Tobias, Tobias, his name was Diamond D. So it's not the, the East Coast rapping Diamond D, but Diamond D from the Bay. And they showed me all kind of like Sac styles. And so when we'd go to Sacramento, I'd see footwork that I'd never seen before anywhere. And they told me about a style where they like really hang, like they, let's say if the beat goes one, two, three, four, they, and they pose, and then they spin around and they pose in these really bizarre balances, like on one foot, like in a sailor, you know? And they start, and they, uh, sometimes they'd have canes and stuff. And one of the areas, uh, I, I can't remember if it was Old Park or Oak Park of Sacramento, but that's a very old style of popping. And they didn't call it popping, but it was popping. And, uh, a lot of the pimpy sort of hat-like things, they, you know, they were doing that, like on another level. It was like really, really cool.

So when I went there, it's like there was, for me being a kid, well, excuse me, let me see. By the time I got over there, let's say it's 1982. So when I go to to Sac and I see these styles, it's like they're really super evolved. So they've been doing this for a long time. The cats that are doing it are in their mid-30s. So, so at that time, I'm like, they're old men, you know, says the 50-year-old now. But it, I saw that like that was really, really developed. And, uh, yeah, and it just seems like different areas, they just called it different things and they stuck to that name. And sometimes they had similar influences, like, you know, everybody knows the Bugs Bunny "eekum akum," you know, kind of stuff. Everybody knows the Seventh Wonder, bad. Everybody. But then sometimes there were things that were really specific to a certain area. Like, for instance, like anybody go to San Jose, they know the Playboys. And they know the Playboys were like, were so advanced with their routines and their routines that it was just, at the time, it was unprecedented, you know? So like, and they really held on to that. That was their pride and tradition, and they made it known, you know, you know what I mean? In San Francisco, you know, people would, some of them would do the Fillmore, some of them would do the Strut. And with pride, would do that, you know. The people from Richmond, they would dance in a certain way and they would hold on to that. They weren't really mixing, like us on, on the other side of the bay. We weren't trying to Fillmore, right? You know, it was the, the only person that was the connection between, uh, that and and Berkeley and the other side of the bay, for the most part, were Demons of the Mind. Was Dana. But Dana was going back and forth because some of the Demons lived in, lived in the city, lived in San Francisco, and he himself lived in Berkeley. So he was traveling to a lot of different spaces, their group, and they, you know, but for the most part, there, the people had their dress codes and their dance codes and really wasn't mixing, you know.

And was it, was it easy to see like the clear connections between where the inspiration was coming from for some of those different cities? Like San Francisco doing the Fillmore? Was it like, do you look back at it now and say like, "Oh, well, that's kind of like swinging the arms and like how they swing their arms in Oakland?" Or that's like, is it to see some of the connections? Are like, "Oh, this guy moved here?" Like, I've heard stories about like Ben James moving from Oakland to San Francisco and that he had a more stretched-out style. Like, are there some like key people that you can remember that like influenced different cities' perspectives?

Okay, well, first of all, I have to like, really make clear that by the time I'm really focused and I'm thinking, "Okay, I can do this," and, uh, when I started getting some attention, and this was the early '80s, okay? So before that, I had seen things, but as a young kid, you know, when I'm like, you know, six, seven, eight, you know, I'm not asking those questions, you know? It's, it's, it's a, it's a big world to me and I, you know, and things are just shocking the hell out of me. I'm going to house parties and people are doing this thing and, and I'm just so mesmerized that I, I wasn't sure if it was just that one person or if it was a scene. I, thing, I, you know, I'm not going out to clubs, you know, the, what you see, the exposure on TV is super limited, you know? So it, we were, I was just like grasping for like signs and clues. So I wasn't really asking those questions, you know, at that age.

The, the first time I'm seeing these things, and ever since I can remember, really, I mean, like I remember dancing, trying to do the James Brown for my cousins when I'm four years old in San Diego, okay? So that's, [Music] 1969. Okay. Then there were robots. People were dancing the robot as long as I can remember. People have been doing the robot. Okay.

So fast forward to me seeing connections from things and there being like specific people that are are really pivotal in the Bay in the early '80s. Yes, there are. But, um, the, the, the way information was allowed to pass is much different. So, for instance, if somebody would do a hot move, you know, you couldn't really just go, "Oh, I'm going to do it." Because, uh, I mean, there was violence to pay for it, really. So, yeah. So that was like a thing. Like if you looked like anyone else, it was, you would get hit. No, no. It was like, if you come over here dancing like somebody we know, and you're not repping this place, you will get checked. Because the thing is, it's like hot dancers are are kind of like, uh, these are like young stars, okay? You know what I mean? There's, you could be playing sports, you know what I mean? You could be on like the varsity, junior varsity, you could be, you know, like a, you know, doing baseball, football, or basketball. That could be your key. Or you could just be a badass dancer. That was like one of the options. So having some star, you know, get attention socially from the girls and such, and just come over and just look like, people weren't just going to allow somebody to just get that attention, you know? Like, "No, you have to have some kind of past. You have to know somebody." You know? It, it just, it just wasn't like that.

People are not just like, battling was very different. I mean, it was a social disgrace. I mean, you lose a battle, people talk about it. And that, and this is your ticket. This is your social ticket to acceptance, you know? Like you're not trying to lose a battle. It's not an exchange. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Like it's very, very clear. You're not trying to lose. Like legend is built on people talking and, you know, these things happening. These battles occurring. So in order to use somebody's step, you had to know that person. You had to talk, or you had to trade moves. And that's so luckily, I was around incredible dancers. I was around, uh, though younger than me, incredible, um, Melvin, Mr. Fantastic. The thing is, because you had to either exchange moves or be somehow associated to the people that were claiming these, uh, skills that were winning battles, it kind of made a, uh, I, I, it's, it's, it's difficult to explain. I won't say that like automatically you wanted to to just take something. It was so unspoken and so shamed that you wouldn't think of doing it. It was, it was like, um, you wouldn't do it. Yeah. It, it, it, everybody was so busy trying to be unique and develop their own things and get their own applause, your own cheese, yeah, that, uh, it, people really went to great lengths and took pride in it.

So when I would trade moves with people like Melvin, Mr. Fantastic, maybe Boogaloo Vic, maybe, uh, Kanani, maybe, uh, Lonnie L. Pop Tart, maybe Dana, maybe, uh, a guy named Tony, they call him, uh, No Boneless, right? Uh, uh, Verndell UFO Encounters, from, from any one of these. Uh, there was a guy named Baby Rob, and this, this is like one of the first guys I saw really specialized in ground moves. Uh, a, a Filipino guy, and he had an older partner, a bigger guy named Ed Dumas. So like when I'm seeing the, the people from my area do this, it's like, it, it didn't, when when we would trade moves, "Oh, show me this," and you do this, and this, and I would practice. I'd try. My people weren't fond of the fact that I was friends with these people and doing these things that I was trying to be like a, a better practitioner. It's like, it wasn't, it wasn't very popular. It was like, like, "Where'd you?" It's like, "I know him." It's like, "Okay, you know what I mean?" And they would give me a pass, and I would see them, and I would do it in front of them, in front of people, and it was okay. It was like, people had to be like, "Okay, yeah, like, you know."

Do you think it was more respected to like have, even if you hadn't traded moves, like if you just had some style that was just never before seen, do you think, did people appreciate that thing? Like, like, "Wow, I've never seen that. That's that's dope."

Yeah, and that's a very important, uh, fact. And, and, uh, this thing didn't only have to do with what you would see. It also had to do with what you would hear. People wanted to hear new music that they hadn't heard before. "Oh my God, that's the beat!" And people were open for new things. The way people were dressing different. "Ah, that's." And there, all the stuff was, was, I, I don't know how to explain it. It was, uh, alternative. So the fact that you were doing some other dance that wasn't taught in the dance school. They didn't teach this stuff in schools. After time, it was every man for themselves. So if you get into a battle, you, you could be popping against a breaker. Yeah. It, it was like, you just had to win, right? That was it. You had your people that believed in you, and they had their people that believed in them. And we, I will show you, it was like that. It wasn't like, "Okay, it's not this strain of orange going against that strain of orange." It was not like that. It was like oranges and apples going against meats. It was really. So everybody in their respective style, like if it was a club, there was girls there, you just had to, you just had to succeed, you know? What, what are you going to do? You got, you know? And, and, and, yeah, like B-boys will go against B-boys, yeah, and poppers would go against poppers. But everybody would just go against everybody.

I remember there was a, a guy from the Bay Area, his name was Baby Blast. So, be, the one of the earliest forms of battles were talent shows. All right? So the people that entered these talent shows, I mean, they had talent shows on TV. So ever since the '70s, we're watching "The Gong Show." We're seeing like, "Okay, you got to dress up. You got to be serious about it. You got to have some skills, and you got to make a presentation." You got to connect. This one guy named, uh, Baby Blast, I believe he's a Filipino guy. Uh, he, he, he, he was, uh, quite, uh, small in stature. And this guy would incorporate Michael Jackson things. He would pop. Girls would lose their minds for this guy. Yeah. And so he was competing head-to-head against Gentlemen of Production and Demons of the Mind in talent shows, and he might win. Yeah. You know what I mean? Somebody that's, that's doing Michael Jackson stuff, you know, going against a troop of, of, of boogalooing and roboting and strutting innovators, you know? Any, it was up to anybody. Anybody. Just whoever got the screams. Whoever it was. There was no rules for this. You just had to win the crowd, right? However you did it. Whether it was you breaking out, doing something that nobody had ever seen before. "Oh my God!" You know, just, just that snap. Like Dana Durham, uh, from from Demons, and Media Circus, Boogaloo Dana, we call him, yeah. He did this thing one time, and I, and I know you know what I'm going to tell you, but he convinced a crowd of people that he took a pill. I think it was out of his watch, put it in his mouth, and shrunk. He convinced, and he held his face. I don't know how. Listen, he looked like he shrank. You know? It was, it was an effect. And the legend of this is perpetuated today. It's Dana shrinking Dana. That Dana. Yes. He blew people's minds. And when it's time, you know, when it's time to see it, you know, you might get lucky. He might show you. He might not, you know? Never know. But they saw something, and that something worked, and that's how it worked back then.

Gotcha. What about like, um, like for your personal, like style, what were some of the things that, that you were inspired by, or what did you, what would you say that you were bringing to the game? Like as far as like bringing something different, or like, you know, how did you win battles? What was it that, that element that you were like, "Okay, I'm going to do this. This is really going to get people. This is going to get them."

Okay, one. Okay, I'm a kid, trying the lock. Not working for me. Just too, I'm, I'm not that coordinated. It's just not working. It's just, I, I can't. I'm like, I try to do a little hop, and no. It's just like, there's something they're doing, I'm not getting it. I, I don't understand. Yeah. Trying to do the robot, and it's like, I'm 10 years old. I'm trying to do the robot as good as a 10-year-old. You know, trying to do the robot. It's like, there was nobody teaching me. It wasn't pretty, you know? I, I, I wouldn't tell anybody that I had a fierce robot. No. Yeah.

So, but this is what happened. So I'm watching these things, right? And I remember, uh, being in LA and I remember being in the Bay and trying to put things together. And it's like, I just, I'm dabbling. And when I would do anything around, uh, more people that were up to, uh, let me see, that were more advanced than me in the '80s, like, I'm, they're saying I'm dancing in an old way. It's an old style. "Damon, is this? He got that old thing he doing. That we're doing this now." You know? And so at this time in the '80s, people know me as BMX Damon. I'm BMX Damon. Okay? I'm not dancing Damon. I'm not Boogaloo, popping Damon. I am BMX Damon. I'm really serious about bicycle motocross. Yeah. And I mean, uh, that's, that's a story onto itself. But as I, I could say that whatever level I've reached in dance, I had reached that level first in bicycle motocross. And my first, like, mini fame was BMX. I am that guy. I'm, I got sponsors, you know, by the legendary, uh, uh, boss, uh, lady out of Oakland. I am that. I'm in. I focused. And I have an accident and I break my wrist, and it takes me out for over a year. So while I'm going stir crazy, it's like my legs are strong as hell from my bike riding. Ah, and I'm like, I'm trying to find something that I can do, you know? And I, I still can't use my, my, my right arm. So tough. So, and I'm seeing people from Berkeley High School, and I'm seeing Baby Rob, I'm seeing Melvin, I'm seeing these people, and I'm trying to, you know, we're cool, I'm good people, they're good people, and they're showing me some stuff, and I'm trying to, I'm trying to to get into this new-fangled way of moving. The way, exactly.

At the time, I received the dance styles from the Bay from the early '80s. Right then was like on another level. I, I had already been doing talent shows, you know, doing simple stuff for my high school. But after this bicycle accident, I went in with another kind of focus. And at that time, the most incredible thing I'd seen were the ground moves and the waves that people were doing in Berkeley. So the people that were on the top of the food chain was Melvin, Mr. Fantastic, with these ground moves. Uh, Baby Rob, who was just a force to, he was, he was the king of these ground moves. He was super flexible, super skinny, Filipino guy, very small stature, really cool, kind of lazy, kind of had a little drawl and would drop into these crazy positions that was just wiping people out. He was just, he, he was dressing like a rocker. He was a, a heavy metal dude. So he had his black leather jackets and he has black pants and bandanas and stuff with spikes and stuff. He's not on some funk stuff. He's on some other things. So this is like another, it's like not only did he dance different, he looked different. He was on some other, you know, he was just different. And he come and he would just wreck the set. And there was a legendary battle against him and Melvin, Mr. Fantastic. And this is very late in the Bay Area's dancing. So by the time I get super serious, this is very late on the on the chain. BMX Damon is is hanging out with the dancers. That's what you know, the, the great names and the big groups of people before. It's like I'm not on that level. And it was on the decline. Like a lot of the the people that were with a really big names, you know, from the resurgence, the every look, all these people weren't coming out to my high school, Berkeley High School. If you got lucky, you might see him in a talent show. There was no internet. So if you found out about a show, it was by word of mouth. So it wasn't easy to have all this access to this information.

But when I saw these ground moves and stuff, I was like, "I, that's what I have to do." It was, it looked so incredible to me. I, I was so struck. It was just fantastic. And, um, and it wasn't easy because I was not flexible, really. I had to, I had to work. I mean, my mom was into yoga, and I must have took up every damn stretch that I saw my mom do. I was, listen, I was determined. I'm going to do this thing. So being the obsessive kind of person that I am, I was stretching for hours, all the time. Like I get home, I, I couldn't just sit in a, I'm not one of these people that just sit in a and watch TV. That's not my flexibility. So I had to work it out, you know? And it, it, you know, anybody that is inflexible, you know, I, I was so far from being relaxed and touching my toes, it just wasn't happening for me like that. So I really had to put myself through it and teach myself how to safely get into these positions and make it work for me. And I, and I worked it out. So that was the, the thing. I was like, the flexible. I was tall. The time I was like 6'4". So like, I'm flexible and I'm tall, and it's just making a big impression. Now, mind you, I'm goofy as hell, just, just goofy for goofy's sake. But, uh, the, the fact that my dad was listening to the OJ and a lot of Philadelphia sounds and stuff, like, you know, the Spinners, for Tops, and stuff. So when the "Rubber Band Man" song came out, my dad used to call me the Rubber Band, Rubber Band Man. So the fact that I'm using this name and I'm goofy, just me, yeah, these, the kind of helped the rubber band concept, and it was easy for people to to remember. So I, the tail end, by the time I get on, I, it's like I just have a series of tricks. Okay. I do this, I do that. Some of the things I've seen before, like, you know, Twisto Flex. You know, everybody did the Twisto Flex by this time because it was made famous by the guy that made it famous to call himself that, you know? So I'm like, "Hmm, okay, how am I going to flip this Twisto Flex my way?" Yeah. And I figured out a way to to make it a little bit more continuous, and I stretched to try to make it be bigger and such, like this. So that was a takeout move. So anybody do a Twisto Flex, I'm like, "Got why this?" You know? And, and then, you know, and so I had a series of moves. But I, I wasn't a really good pop, pop, popper, you know? It was, that's like one of the the latest things that I had to practice on to try to get, 'cause everybody else got so good popping. I'm like, "Damn, I'm gonna have to learn this thing." Yeah. You know, I could stop. Okay. I could pop a little bit. But, yeah. So it was flexibility and waves were my focus. And the fact that I had a broken wrist meant that my, my footwork was super limited. So I didn't go that route either, right? So I was really like, when people were doing footwork, when people were doing other things, it's like I really stuck to what I could do with my body and doing some flexible stuff and and trying to just knock it out of the ballpark when I did it, right?

When you said like, um, you weren't like going into popping, like you weren't doing a lot of popping. And, uh, was there also like other, like, were there a lot of terms for that motion, like the tensing of the muscles and like the stopping really hard? Like, were there, were people using different names for that, or did everybody just say that that's popping?

Well, this is how, how it happened. Around 1977, '78, around, I'm like in about fifth grade in elementary school in Berkeley. And somebody says, "Oh, you [Music] boogaloo." And I'd never heard the term before. I'd heard a bunch of different people trying to describe what this, the name of the, I, names and names and names and names and names and names and names, yeah. And then I heard the word "boogaloo." I'm like, "What?" Like, you know, because I'm hardheaded, I'm like, "What? Like, boogaloo?" So that's what they call what I do now, you know? And it was like, "Yeah, that's what that's what they call it now, you know?" It's like, "Oh." And I wasn't really feeling it until I saw The Electric Boogaloos and I was like, "Oh, okay. That's, I want to be like that." Yeah, yeah. We're doing that. And everybody called it "boogaloo." I can't remember when I first heard the term "popping." I can't remember. I don't, I don't remember if it was before or after I heard of the term "boogaloo." I can't remember. But somewhere thereabouts, and I, people were so relieved to just have a name that everybody understood what you were talking about. It was cool. Even though every single one of these areas had a different name, a different style, they all called it "boogaloo." So that, so at that point, "popping" because everybody understood, and especially after the movies came out, 'cause all we wanted to do was be remembered. So when "Breakin'" the movie comes out, and, and they're talking about popping, it's like, you know, people are coming up to me like, "Can you do the turbo?" I mean, people, the names, you just can't imagine. People were just trying to understand and ex, you know, define what it is that we are doing. So people were pretty much happy to have a name that everybody just understood. And people would use a few names, but it wasn't actually so specific like as exactly what it was. So you could, like, you could see someone doing a robot, and at this point, people are saying, "Okay, he's boogalooing." Or he could have been doing a robot, he could have been boogalooing, he could have been strutting, he could have been busting, he could have been sacking, he could have been it. Listen, man, it's like the name, it was just, there were some things that were very specific, right? Somebody was waving, self-explanatory. Somebody tutting, self-explanatory, you know, after the Tutting exhibition in, in the late '70s, you know, even Steve Martin was singing "Funky Tut," you know what I mean? Everybody understood the concept of somebody looking like hieroglyphics and making, doing the Tut patterns with their hands. Now, when people were going to discos and in talent shows at that time, the strobe light effect was a very big party effect and gimmick that people would use. For instance, Demons of the Mind had strobe lights that would come on. There was songs, B-52's called "The Strobe Light." There was like, it's a hit. So everybody understood the concept of what it looked like to have this light flashing on and off, right? So people started strobing. They were trying to make the effect of the, and, and everybody had a clear picture since it was a common something they could relate to. Just like the Twisto Flex. Watch it. It was a commercial of the Twisto Flex watchband, and they pull it and they twist it, and he lets it go, and it goes. And every, everybody just understands it's a twist. And people got it. It was very clear, you know what I mean? When, when people were animating, you know, the clation, you know, stuff that was popular, like there was people really looking like King Kong. Yeah, like they really looked like that. Like they really had that effect. So down, they could do that. So everybody understood, you know, these words when it was very specific like that. Animating. Yes. Strobe. What's the difference between animating and strobe? Sometimes people called it the same things. Other people were very specific, you know what I mean? So it really depends on the perspective of the person, like what city you were from, like what you saw, what level they had perfected their effect. So basically, whoever was at the top of the food chain within that parameter would kind of become the authority on it, you know what I mean? Yeah. So that's my, my, my take on it. The words weren't so damn specific, right? Yeah. At first, until people wanted to claim their contribution to, you know, to these things. I made up names. Other people made up names. And I'd say I was doing the this, and and other, I'd see other people doing things that I did, and they would call it different things. Like, uh, for instance, I'll give you an example. Verndell from UFO Encounters was kind enough to show me, uh, what he called the Pac-Man walk. Okay? So he did this Pac-Man walk. He showed it to me. It was cool. We, we traded. I can't remember what I showed him. Uh, and, and that was that. Fast forward years later, I see Wiggles do something that looks very similar. Yeah. And I'm like, and when I was lucky enough to meet him, and we're on tour together, and I asked him about like, where did this, are you trying to do the Pac-Man walk? He goes, "No." And he told me about his, uh, way into what he calls the Wiggle Walk. They're different, but it looks very similar. Yeah. And things can look very similar, and they can develop simultaneously in different parts of the world or the country at that time, you know? So it was just no rhyme or reason to things. People would be influenced by something and it would turn, people would interpret it different ways. Sometimes it wasn't really until people started getting VHS recorders in the '80s when we could finally rewind, figured this [ __ ] out. Everybody would think that they were doing something that they weren't doing. I mean, one of the things I learned from Verndell, he asked me if I could show that to him. I'm like, "Dude, this is your step." He goes, "No, it's not because we figured out wrong." And that was one of the things that helped, yeah, you know, because there was a lot of variation. Yeah. And, and if you were lucky enough, your variation would fit your body and so on. And, yeah, and you would raise it up. So what happened is when people started rewinding the tapes and getting very specific, then you could really like go in and like, "Huh, slow motion. Oh my gosh." So rewinding stuff, the amount of moves that came from rewinding the tape. Yeah. I'm like, "Did you see what it looked like in reverse?" You know, it just goes, a whole new world of of analysis. And that's when things started to get more zoomed in, you know?

So I got to head to work. But, um, thank you for, uh, for sharing your perspective, Damon Cross, Rubber Band Man. Um, yeah, like, I think it's, it's really, it's always interesting to hear your perspective because, like you said, you lived in so many different places. Like, we didn't even really get to touch on Europe, like, and how that was when, when you go there, when you went there. Maybe we can do that another day. But, like, it was cool to hear all the places that you went and what people were calling the dance. And, yeah, this thing, it's really, I feel like this dance is so hard to sum it up in just a few sentences, you know? Because there's so many stories, there's so many different perspectives, so many different names, so many different pieces to the puzzle. So, like, one thing that I'd really like to, to, to, to, to talk about the next time we, we speak and, and build, like, this is when you were talking about tying the lines between, yeah, this thing. There's some incredible similarities that are just so uncanny that, like, almost in the same way, young kids all around the world do the patty cake. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like, where does it come from? I don't know. The way people, little kids tease each other, like they do this in all languages. Where do they get it from? I do not know. It, it's just uncanny. And when you go back to people like Earl "Snakehips" Johnson, you know what I mean? The fact that he's looking like he is Boogaloo for real. And Guy predates us by so many decades. It's like, like, there's, there's a lot of connections. But I, I truly believe that people didn't see Earl and take this thing and just, it just, there's, there's amazing, uh, coincidences that may not be coincidences. That I, I, you know, it, it may be our ancestors working through us. What, but there's uncanny connections through the years. And we, we can get into that another time. And I also want, next time, I also want to get into the, the music too, like a little bit of like some of the anthems of the time and how they affected the dance. Like, like, 'cause I know that is another thing that everyone was listening to those songs in different places, but like the, you know, the music inspired the movement. So maybe next time we can talk a little bit about that.

Yep. But thank you, man. I appreciate it.

Anytime, man. Anytime. It's not doing me any good. This this knowledge. I'll give it away.

All right, bro. All right. Have a good one, guys. See you later.

Peace. Peace. Peace.