Chris Voss - Author of Never Split the Difference.

Cool afternoon, everybody. This is John Bell. Make It Happen Monday. Hopefully, you all had a fantastic weekend. I did, because I was preparing for this podcast, and I am very honored to introduce our guest today, who shouldn't really need an introduction to my audience because I talk about him a lot. But I'd like to introduce everybody to Chris Voss, the founder of The Black Swan Group and author of one of the best negotiation books on the planet, *Never Split the Difference*. Chris, how's it going today?

Thanks, Jen. It's going really well. Thanks for having me on. I really appreciate you taking the time.

And one of the things I want to kind of start with was Black Swan, that the whole concept itself. Could you, and how it relates to negotiation, could you, the audience here, on the concept of Black Swan and, and kind of white swans versus nobody ever thought there was, and how it relates to negotiations?

Yeah, well, you know, the idea on two levels. Little things that make a big difference, the impact, the highly improbable stuff that would change things in ways that no one ever expected. You know, to change so the negotiation techniques are counterintuitive, really. Such as, you know, not even balling with the word "yes." I mean, how do you do that and have a massive impact on how effective you are as a negotiator? And then also the idea that the tiny little pieces of information that'll make all the difference in the world that the other side is holding on to, you just get it out of them. You know, that that's so it's on two levels, a dual metaphor, if you will.

I like it. And so it, the idea is like, you know, and I think the original thing of Black Swan was nobody ever, everybody always assumes swans were white, right? And so there was that perception. And then all of a sudden, somebody saw a Black Swan. It was like, holy [ __ ] like, what's that all about? And it came out of nowhere and it reshaped people's minds. So, is it our goal to try to uncover those black swans throughout the negotiations?

Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and then does this accept that they're there? I mean, when we're training people in negotiation, if you don't, if you can't write down something new that you learned in the interaction that surprised you, you didn't do a good job.

Cool. So with that, what's, what's the different, what do you see is the major differences between hostage negotiations that you've obviously been a part of and business negotiations? What are the, I mean, outside the bank, the potential of death, but what are, what do you see is the big differences between hostage and business negotiations?

Hostage negotiations are generally calmer. No [ __ ] really. Yeah, I got to tell you something. You know, in hostage negotiation, you know, since we learned, we didn't know his emotional intelligence, but we learned how to dial into people faster with some neuroscience tools, emotional intelligence tools. They really tend to be, they tend to be calmer. I mean, business people have far more stories of people screaming at him, yelling, and storming out of the room, trying to destroy negotiations, than any of the hostage negotiators I ever worked with did. And it's just, just crazy if you think about it. But if, if you, the idea is to use really tactical emotional intelligence from the beginning, that it makes sense that it, that ours are calmer and, and probably more effective overall.

And is it because, I mean, my assumption here on on hostage is that they might start really emotional, but then, I mean, they might start really aggressive, but then through some tactical stuff, you can kind of calm down and come to an agreement. Whereas business, do they, do they keep the emotions throughout, or do they keep the hostility throughout?

Well, people get mad when they don't, when they're not heard. I mean, it seems like ridiculously obvious, but very few business people go into a negotiation to hear the other side out because they're so determined to be heard. I got a case, I gotta make, I got a value proposition, I got to give, I have an argument I have to make. I have to explain to them what my position is. And, you know, the Stephen Covey advice from way back, "Seek first to understand and be understood." This is a tactical application of that. You know, "Seek first to demonstrate understanding in order to be understood." I'd get my point across much quicker. I can get it into your brain if I know that the biggest obstacle to you hearing my case is you have to be heard out first. I mean, it's just, it's so stupid that it's so true. But, you know, we'll progress faster by applying these ideas in business negotiations. You know, we tell people we accelerate their deal-making ability, we save a massive amount of time. And that, that's how, I mean, it's a counterintuitive approach.

So why do you think that is? Why do you think we've been wired in business to be so, I guess, opinionated or forceful with our mentality of why we are so valuable and why you should do business with us? Is there something that is that we've done as organizations from a training standpoint or an onboarding standpoint that has wired us to be that way?

I think there's a couple of things out there that have contributed to the problem. You know, this whole nonsense about the "yes momentum" or momentum selling, where, you know, "yeses" are micro-agreements, and you get a bunch of micro-agreements on the other side, and actually call them tie-downs. Yeah, they, and they can't get away. So it's this idea that you're gonna tie the other side down with a series of "yes"-oriented questions, which is basically you trying to make your case in some fashion, as if the other side doesn't know what you're doing, right? I mean, that that's so stupid and it's so commonplace. That's part of it. And then, for whatever reason, and I'm talking to an executive probably about two or three years ago, and he said, "Yeah, I went to this negotiation training, and they said, 'Make sure the other side, other side understands your position.' That's your, you know, make sure they understand your position." I thought, think about it in practicality. If that's your goal, then it's two sides talking at each other and trying to make sure the other side gets their position. And which then means nobody's gonna get the other side's position because you're so determined to be understood first instead of being understanding. And I think that's that's probably the other contributor to it.

And so, does that, because, because I've always been taught that win-win, right? That you want that win-win. So I know the bunch of "yeses," I want to come back to that. But then the mentality of going in win-win, you talked about how we, we need to understand. And to me, in business negotiations, the goal is win-win. But you're saying the mentality of that is bad. Could you walk me through why the mentality of walking into a negotiation with a win-win mentality is a bad thing?

Yeah, well, first of all, if you got a win-win mentality, you're vulnerable to being taken advantage of. Yeah. And so, and since, and since you are vulnerable, there's nothing to go shooters out there that they're going to drop those words "win-win" on you real early on to see if you bite. And they're there, the deal, they're the throat cutters. I mean, consistently when we come into companies, we'll be doing a training session, and some exact, it's not in the training session with the company, will stop me in a lunchroom and he'll say, "I hate you guys bad-mouthing win-win." And I get taste, but I make deals like that all the time. And I say, "Well, you know, the reality is, you know, the person offers to meet you in the middle is often a poor judge of distance." And they kind of smile and they go, "Yeah, you know, I say win-win, but I always anchor really high so I can end up where I want." Yeah. And so these guys are out there. I mean, these guys know that they're getting you. And, and, and anytime that somebody approaches us, if the words "win-win" come out of their mouth in the first three minutes, I know they're trying to cut my throat. I know they want me to do it for nothing else. They are, you know, you're gonna get so much exposure, there's so much opportunity. If you, if you come into business with, I mean, that's a con job. Let's try and take me hostage to the futures, what that is. I mean, you're speaking a lot more stuff than I do, but a lot of these conferences allows me to come and speak for free at this point. Oh, no, we're gonna get you in front of a thousand people, and they're all gonna do business with you, and all that other stuff. And I'm just like, "Yeah, I know, I've heard it." And they're trying to get something for free at the end of the day.

But isn't it a good mentality to have? I mean, I understand the actuality of if I were to say to you, there's some red flags. Absolutely. Just like the word "fair," you talk about a lot, right? There, there's the, there's the tactical when somebody says it. But isn't it the right mentality you have to try to walk away? Because if somebody wins and somebody lives, and this is where I kind of get to the difference between hostage negotiations and business negotiations. Hostage negotiations, they're really, I mean, you, again, you know more than me. There's, it doesn't seem like there's a win-win. It's like, "Oh, you don't go to jail and I get my people back." Like, yeah, right. So you need to make sure that those people don't die. But in business, when we, when we sign up, especially in the industry that I mostly sell into, which is SAS, right? And we're looking for long-term contracts with clients, where as customer success and all that other stuff. So if we, if we don't get somewhat of a win-win, those renewals don't happen. There's animosity in the implementation and all that other stuff. So, so how do you rectify that?

Yeah, well, so it's a difference between the outcome and how a process felt, okay? Um, first of all, it's got to be collaborative. And secondly, for you to be able to continue to do business with me at all, you have to be better off as a result of the deal. Because even if you felt good about it, which you should, you know, I don't want you to feel like you lost, right? I don't want you to feel like you lost. I want you to feel like you won. And I need you to be better off simultaneously. So, but most people, like, I've run into so many people that tell me about this, you know, "I, you know, I let me tell you about this negotiation I had. The other side over a barrel." Well, if you're describing a negotiation like that, that means that they felt like they lost. You hammered them, and you made sure they knew you hammered. Yeah. So you cut your own throat because they never want to do business with you again. So again, it's, it's, it's the mentality and focusing on the outcome and not being taken hostage to a couple of ideas. You know, first of all, I don't want to be taken hostage to "yes" in any way, shape, or form. I don't want to be taken hostage to the future where you're, you're painting this rosy picture for me in the future, it's gonna happen. And I also don't want to be taken hostage by feeling like I can't say no. As soon as, as soon as I've reconciled myself to those ideas, then there's a pretty good chance we're gonna have a highly collaborative negotiation, and you're gonna want to continue to do business with me.

And is that the big thing that people, like, what I found is that especially some of the younger reps that I train, you know, they think of negotiations as in, when the price comes up, right? Now we're negotiating. I always try to say, "Look, you were literally from the minute someone picks up the phone, you're negotiating." Yeah. Right? So, so is that one of the bigger mistakes that people think is that they're not in a negotiation from the minute they start engaging with somebody?

Yeah, exactly. The most dangerous negotiation is the one you don't know you're in. And, you know, we call that a law of negotiation gravity. You may not like it, but gravity's there. And you step off that building, you're gonna smack the concrete one way or the other anyway when you fall. And if you, and if you're not aware of that, then yeah, by the time price comes up, you've been in a negotiation for a long time, you didn't even know. I mean, when I first started working on *Never Split the Difference*, the first author I spoke to, or a writer that I tried to engage, you know, we went back and forth on a process of how we were gonna get together. And when this writer finally made, said to me, "You know, what, what she wanted," I just flat rejected it and no, and, and stopped talking to her. I mean, people are startled when I stop talking to them. Well, we've been in a negotiation for a long time. She said, "You know, I, I thought we were negotiating. I, you know, I thought you were gonna give me a counteroffer." And what I didn't say, because I don't have to, but I like you. We've been negotiating since we first started talking, and you've been a pain in the neck getting to this point for the last two months. And the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. And you've demonstrated to me what implementation with you is gonna look like every step of the way, and I don't want any part of it. So yeah, the most, you've been negotiating for a long time. If you think the negotiation is kicking in now, prior, it started when the phone was, when the phone was picked up, when the cold call was made, right?

And so let's go back to that, getting to no. And I think, you know, from a tactical standpoint, when you're making, you know, I deal with, again, when we talked about the demographics, sir, probably about 75% of my audience are the SDRs, BDRs, the ones who are making the cold calls, not necessarily negotiating the entire, you know, the entire deal, but negotiating for that next step. And so you talk about the power of no. And, and starting a cold call for instance, and saying, "Hey, did I catch you at a bad time?" And that no gives them that, like, usually it's a, "Well, no, but what is this about?" And you're saying that no gives them power. That no right up front gives them, makes them more comfortable.

Yeah, the crazy thing is, is that anytime you try to get a "yes" out of somebody, if you're asking a question, whether the answer you're driving for is "yes," it stops them. It makes them worried. What am I letting myself in for? What's the hook? How much have I committed myself? What am I not seeing if I say "yes"? I mean, literally, once I asked my girlfriend about a shirt that I wore that she complimented me on earlier in the day, and I said, "So, you say you like this shirt, right?" And she's like, "If I say yes, what am I letting myself in for?" She literally said that. But that's, you know, that's what everybody thinks. If I say yes, what am I letting myself in for? Now, as much anxiety as "yes" creates, "no" does the opposite. Like, it's stupid that you can simply flip the question, and people feel protected and safe when they say "no." As a parent, and when your teenage kid says, "Dad, can I..." I say "no" before he finishes the sentence. But, you know, I said, "Once I said no, I felt protected." And I'd say, "Right now, now tell me again, what did you want?" Because I felt like I can now listen with no commitment. And as stupid as changing from "Have you got a few minutes to talk?" to "Is now a bad time?" I mean, you could hear people dial in and focus on you when they say that. They'll hesitate for a second, they'll clear their head, and they'll say, "Now, it's not a bad time," or "No, it's not a bad time." But what the, after the point is, you want their focus. And "yes" creates distractions, and "no" clears distractions.

Is there, do you see a difference between "Is this a good time?" versus "Is this a bad time?"

I never ask anybody if it's a good time, ever. It's a, you know, it's counterproductive. Because, "Is this a good time?" Well, I don't know what you want to talk about. I don't know how long you want to talk. I don't know that I want to talk to you. I mean, "Is now a good time to talk?" is actually a solid four individual questions: Do I want to talk to you? Do I want to talk about what you want to talk about? How long are we gonna be on the phone? How do I get off the phone? You can't answer that question without having all those subsequent questions running through your mind, which means you're completely distracted. And that's why something as simple as "Is now a bad time?" is a really bad question.

Let's, um, talk about the, the preparation. All right, some of you talked a lot about there's a fine line between preparing for any negotiations where it sometimes you prepare too much. And so there you have assumptions versus hypotheses. So I've always been taught, you know, walk into a negotiation with as much information as you can. You understand their situation, you understand their options, your competition, all of it. So that, what would, would that preparation, you can go in and be ready for whatever they throw at you? But you, you say a couple of times in the book, or when I was reading and rereading it again, that, you know, sometimes less is more when it comes to preparation for a negotiation. Could you get, and then let me answer that after I go back to what I said a second ago, because, um, I think I misstated the question that I said was bad. "Have you got a few minutes to talk?" is a bad question. Yes, okay. And I think somehow I misstated a moment ago. Okay. So now let's forward to preparation. All right. So we've got to look at the negotiation process as an information-gathering process. So you don't gather your information and then negotiate. You gather some information and then dive in to confirm. There's always going to be pieces of information you can only get from the negotiation to start with. Those are black swans, no matter how much research you do. There's no way you can find out what time pressures they're really under without talking to them. No matter what their take is on what you think their problems are, you can't find out if there's anything about your value proposition, you can't research it and find out exactly what they value most without getting into the negotiation. There's, there's no way you can find. You can guess, but you can't confirm. So a lot of people are scared to get in, scared to get caught off-guard in the negotiation. You better get caught off-guard. Like I said, if you didn't discover stuff in the, in the interaction, then you're actually a horrible negotiator. You're not discovering anything. And then, then, you know, like, and there was one guy in sales that was applying. I must have talked to him two years ago. He's, he's getting the second meeting 80% of the time. And his job is to get on the phone, get a second meeting. And I said, "So, you since you're applying our skills among which is, he starts out with the question, 'Have I caught you in the middle of something?'" He said, "Every single time the answer is no, but what's this about?" And that sort of a response tells you that they're completely dialed in to you, which is where you want to be. But I, I asked him, "How much research are you doing on? Are you doing more research or less?" And he said, "Oh, wait, less. I didn't tell me more. And I could ever find out anyway. Their LinkedIn profile's not gonna tell me what I need to know. Their Facebook page is not gonna tell me what I really need to know. I got to get it from them." So I totally, any would be, I guess, what, what is, what is too much? Right? I mean, what are some of the core things that you should prepare for? I mean, obviously, who you're talking to, what their title is, and their background, and those types of things. But I like what you talked about as far as instead of role-playing things, you create hypotheses, or you create like, "What's up? What are all the reasons they shouldn't do business with us?" Or something like that. Is that the right? Is that what we should prepare for?

You know, I'm going to tell you something, and anybody that's ever asked me if I've looked at their way, say the only answer they wanted out of my mouth was "yes." Like, I have not had anybody grill me on the content of the website, where they went to college, the anything beyond the first line of their LinkedIn profile. None of that stuff. You know, there's, they want, they're dying to tell you all that stuff. I mean, they're dying to tell you about it. And if you spend two weeks researching and learning everything about them, they still want to tell you about it. You just blew two weeks. Yeah. I mean, it's insane. People are dying to tell you. But, I mean, you're proud of that LinkedIn profile. They don't want you to read about it. They want to brag about it to you. So minimal exposure to this information is all you need.

Can I, can I ask you some on that note specifically though? Is that a byproduct of their desire to want to talk, or is that a byproduct in the sales world of bad sales? And let me give you an example. Historically, before LinkedIn and before website, you know, but not before websites, but before LinkedIn and stuff like that, back when I was selling, or early 2009, type of thing, you know, it was a valid question or it was a valid statement to get in front of you and say, "So, Chris, tell me about your business." Right? And so it would promptly, "Well, we were founded in this, and we did that." And that would be their chance to tell you about their business. Right? Now, I actually think that very generic phrase is a very insulting thing to say because they put so much effort into telling the world about their business there that you, not being prepared and understanding their business. And look, I'm all for actual contextual questions about your business, but not the broad statement, "Tell me about your business." And I, and I feel like we've done the, the prospects of disservice and there, so conditions because most sales reps are still lazy. They don't do homework. And so people jump right into, "Well, John, let me give you a little background on us." And as they're doing that, like, "I appreciate that, but it's almost like I want to preempt that." And I've had it before where I've been like, "Look, Chris, I appreciate, you know, I took a look at your quick website. I know where you will found it. I know what..." Yeah. "Now I have some qualified, oh, absolutely, questions about your business. But we don't, we don't have to go through the history here." And it's almost like they, you feel them being like, "Oh, okay, wait. We can have a real conversation here with a sales rep who's actually done, you know, like, isn't gonna ask me the [ __ ] questions." So what are your thoughts on on that, where we've conditioned them to do that versus their true desire to talk about?

All right, so it's an interesting question, and I think it's really how salespeople get off track. Because really, me, none of your clients care as much about whether or not you know their history as to whether you know their challenges. Now, there's no shortage of B2B surveys that say the vast majority of buyers prefer to talk to experts on the industry. By definition, that means they prefer to talk to people that know nothing about them. An expert doesn't know you from Adam. An expert understands the challenges of the industry. Now, it might be cool that you know that I was founded in 2008, and I'm founder, CEO, owner, it's a family business. It might be cool, again, to give me warm and fuzzies. But if you don't know anything about my industry, as soon as I find out you don't know anything about the industry, not me, the industry, I got no time for you. And I will dial somebody up on the phone who's an expert on the challenges in the industry, who doesn't have any idea about any of my history. So, you know, this idea, you know, relationships are great, but business is more important than friendship. Friendship should follow from business, not vice versa. I can love you as a person, our kids could play softball together, maybe you love coaching Little League the same way I love coaching. If you don't understand the challenges of my industry, you're wasting my time. So the, what people need to research, which sales people need to research, are actual challenges as opposed to company histories. Because what I was faced with back in 2008, it's not what I'm faced with today. You could give me chapter and verse about what happened when I founded my company, how long I've been in existence. I still have no idea whether or not you understand the challenges I'm faced with right now.

Like, so, so let's kind of talk about that as far as challenges versus opportunities, if you will. I mean, loss aversion is huge. Okay? And, and it's a three or four acts. Let me stop you right there, please. It's not huge. It's the single driving decision factor. It is the biggest factor in decision-making. It outweighs everything else. Nothing else is close. The concept here is, you'd much, I'd, if you save $200,000 or gained $200,000, I'm sorry, not lose $200,000 or win $200,000. Most people would do everything not to lose the $200,000, then get the opportunity to win the $200,000. Is that effectively kind of an easy breakdown of it?

Yeah, absolutely. And then I couldn't tell you what the sources. With somebody that was quoting sales stats to me, not long ago, so I satisfied with the person said that 70% of buy decisions are made to avoid loss, not to accomplish gain. 70% to avoid a loss. Do you think that's dependent on who? In this sense that I talked a lot about the power line, right? People below and above the power line. People below the power line are focused on today or yesterday, which is usually pain, right? Because they're in it. Whereas people above the power line, like decision-makers, those other things are focused on the future. So my general guidelines to reps is, you know, the C-level executive doesn't want to talk about feature-function pain stuff because that's what they delegate to. They want to talk about, "Where am I going? Like, how are you gonna help me get to where I want to be?" Which is aligning with their priorities. So, do you think loss aversion is as strong with an executive leader who's trying to bring a company to the next level over the next 12, 24 months? What are you talking about? What their vision is and their fear over losing that vision?

Aren't you fair enough? And that's why you gotta be real careful over assuming that you know what their their loss is. Okay? And that's why, you know, hostage negotiation techniques are designed to get into somebody's head and find out what's in there, right? You know, we got, we got to get in there. We got to find out what's in there. And simultaneously, they're the same set of techniques that you can get in there. You know, you've gotten permission to get in and find out what their vision is, with the fear of losses. And the way you got in gives you the opportunity to make some changes because of the way that you got in. It gives you the opportunity to have what we call trust-based influence. So, you know, the executive, like, if he's got his eyes fixed on growing to a hundred million dollars in the next two years, and he's got a path, what he's afraid of is not as losing that opportunity in that growth. And so that the fear of loss, saying you gotta be careful about where your assumptions that you're making. And then also, you gotta be really careful about how you wield that power. How you get into understanding what that potential loss is takes you from being someone who's a trusted advisor to someone who's trying to take them hostage. So, I mean, it, it's really as a matter of definition. But they're, there, it doesn't matter where you are in the world, the overriding driver of decision-making. So much so that's why in a book, we call it "bending reality," because you bend people's reality when you understand what the losses that they're trying to avoid are.

And is this more of them, is this almost always a personal thing as it relates to that person when you're talking negotiations? Because, you know, we've all been taught like, people buy on emotion, they back up with facts. Right? So when you're selling, first of all, I wanted to see if you believe that. Second of all, if you do or don't. When you're, when you're negotiating with somebody, is your goal to understand the personal drivers of that person to be able to uncover this, or is it really more to focus on the business drivers?

Well, the dominating decision is gonna be how it affects them personally. What's in it for me? How you gonna help me? You know, and that's why, and if it wasn't that, I mean, executives and business people and, you know, contracts people, you know, across the board, no one would ever make a stupid decision that would hurt their company. But when it comes to answer, you know, people are people are worried about themselves first. And depending upon the company environment, you know, it might not be a team atmosphere. You know, they, you know, the culture code, Daniel, Daniel Coyle, hey, *Culture Code* and *Talent Code*, two great books by the same guy. He talks about, I think the staff that he quoted that only 6% of people, business people, know their company's values. Six percent. Wow. If that's true, and it's probably pretty close, then this is not a team-oriented culture. So they've got to be out for themselves. You don't even know what the company's values are. Your executives aren't living it. If your executives aren't living the values, then you better, you're looking out for yourself because the other people are not looking out for you. They're looking out for themselves. I mean, culture is a dicey issue and that a lot of people overlook.

Well, we should think as a team. We should think as a team. It makes, it's only smart to think as a team. Yeah, it's true. But should you know it's a, if you're saying the word "should," that means that reality and philosophy are not lined up or out of alignment. So I've been talking a lot about values recently. So you kind of struck a nerve there. First of all, why don't most organism in their mission statement, vision statement, stuff, but why don't you think more companies define and live their values from a from a leadership standpoint?

Well, it takes a lot of effort. It's a hard thing to do. And you also become fear-driven. And, you know, have did you define a few stuff? And, you know, problem is, if they just, it's, it's hard to get him to line up. You know, it's, we focus on that all the time. I mean, internally, under company, we're always talking about it. Now, you know, relatively new company, we're family-owned business, we're, you know, we're defining ourselves as we go. And we know some companies that are really good people out there. I mean, we just stopped doing business with one company because of values. I don't know what their core values are as articulated, but I can tell you the values that they live are contrary to ours.

So with that, my, I said this the other day on a panel, you know, communities, they would ask me about building communities. And I said that the most important thing about a community is that you, you have shared values. You can argue, you can debate, we can, we can disagree, as long as we have shared values. Do you think that's the same? First of all, do you agree with that? Second, well, do you think that's the same in business negotiations where you and I, at least from a value standpoint, treating people right, not being an [ __ ], you know, whatever those are, like, we have to align at least a little bit in order for this relationship to work. Is that, is that like a critical factor to try to uncover?

Yeah, well, we're never gonna be able to implement and otherwise, you know. And it can be, they could be little things. Like a company that we, you know, we've had some value alignment mismatch recently. They've been very successful lately, so they're in the entertainment industry. So now their risk aversion is high, which means they're scared to death of not having a success. You know, we want to engage in something with them where there's no guarantee of success. So they're horrified that they'll drop something in the entertainment industry, it's not as successful as the other things that they've done. Now they're extremely risk-averse. They're no longer entrepreneurial. They're no longer willing to take the risks that they were willing to take three years ago. They throw something out there and say, "You know, we'll work like crazy, we'll make it successful." You know, it's, it's like somebody, I can't, you know, an author who's a lot, who's had a great book, who refuses to do another one because they're afraid this will be as successful as the first. People's fear of failure increases highly after their successes, and they lose their entrepreneurial edge. And that's really the biggest problem with our core value mismatch now, which I pointed out to him. I said, "You know, we're willing to do this, and it might not be that great." And I said, "You guys are terrified that you'll drop something out there that's not as successful as your last project, and then you'll be criticized over." And they went, "Yeah, yeah, that's it, exactly."

So did their values change? I think so. I think I think that's what happens with a lot of people. Did they don't feel like their values have changed, and they probably feel like the same people. They just haven't become aware of how risk-averse they are right now. So I've really been trying to think this through from a sales training, but also for my own approach of, you know, I talk when we, we do, when we do prospecting, for instance, look for triggers. Hey, you know, they opened up a new office, they launched a new product, make a connection to that. Say, "Hey, I saw that happened. You know, we help companies, we're in that stage. Let's talk." It's just a, you know, personalized way. But I've been really toying around the idea of trying to figure out how to align values because I think once, if I can come across somebody who I can connect with pretty much immediately because I can tell their values are similar to mine, like, I don't want to say the sale takes care of itself, but man, it's so much easier to have that real conversation and not [ __ ] conversation where it's, you know, real surface-oriented, and I'm trying to figure out how do I get to that early so that, so that I can get in and out of deals faster with people who I know share a core value of I. Is there something you do to to uncover that part early?

Well, not as we're probably looking at the values right after the fact. We try to figure out whether or not there's a deal there anyway. Okay? This is something that we discovered is a much bigger problem in a business community than we realized before the book came out, because we're consulting on time now. But, you know, for example, there's no such thing as an open mind. Period. Nobody that you encounter has an open mind. B2B data out there now is that 50% of people have made up their, and the buyers have made up their mind before their first contact with a salesperson. Half made up their mind before they contact the salesperson. And nobody's closed rate is 50%, which means, you know, what's wrong with the math problem? Well, I came across a book, *To Sell Is Human*, recently, they pegged a number at 20% of opportunities that come sales people's way, that come businesses' way, are actually fake. You know, they don't usually fake, they have a different, different term, but it's fake opportunities. People are doing due diligence, they're checking that, you know, you're the competing bid. They get somebody they want to go with, they need three competing bids. So they go with who they want to go with. They just want a price with you, they just want terms with you to prove that they can, they're doing due diligence, is what they're doing. And in effect, and why this number is low is because in this survey, they're asking people how often they lie to sales people. Now, there's no way that then they're inflating the amount of time that they're lying to sales people. They're hedging on that. If you know, nobody's gonna admit to all the times that they lie. So there's that 20% number has to be low to start with. And then, then the second problem is, there's more B2B data out there that says that even if they haven't made up their mind, there's somewhere between 70 and 80% of the way through the decision-making process before they talk to a salesperson. And that's admitted. I mean, there are a lot of people out there that I think feel that they have an open mind, "I'm willing to be talked into this," but I'm so prejudiced to begin with. You know, I've done so much research that, you know, what you've probably never had a chance at all. So we got to find out in the opening conversation whether or not there's any opportunity there at all. And now we'll talk about cultural values, but you may be just looking for free consulting or due diligence. And I got to know about those things before putting more time into us. So that's, I call that happy years, right? The reps who hear what they want to. I think they have a dist selective listening or whatever, but I call it happy years, right? They hear what they want to hear. It's a deal. Oh, yeah, I'm interested. And we are negotiations. It's a really simple but effective give-get, right? So what we do is we do brainstorm all the games. What are other things your clients ask of you? They want information. You want discounts on proposals, or one ROI. And well, all that stuff, prioritize it, one to talk like 20. Say that's a number, you know, could be more, could be less, but easy to give away, hard to give away. And then flip it over and say, "What do we want? One of the gets." All right, so we want, so gives to the client, and then gets for us, which is we want decision process timeline, signed contract, testimonial, early, late. And then match it up. So when somebody asks for a 5, I'm asking for a 5 in return. 10, 10. We score deals, right? I gave away a 1, a 5, and a 6. I got a 2, a 4, and a 7. That score, 12 to 13, tells me how healthy the deal is objectively. And it works off of reciprocity, which I know you're a fan of, which is when somebody asks for something, they feel obligated to give you something in return. The funny thing is, is when we get everything right and don't give anything in return, sometimes reps, that's happy years. But what they're not realizing is, if somebody, if you're not giving somebody something, that means A, you're consciously not doing it, or B, they're not asking for anything. And if they're not asking for anything, that's a, that's a dangerous sign.

So how do you prevent happy years? How do you prevent a rep early on from hearing what they want to hear as they as they enter a negotiation? Because that, that's what kills reps is that those deals that they think they say they're saying there's a chance, and so they sit in their pipeline forever. And those are the ones that the managers get pissed off at month over month because they, they share what they're so. So how do we prevent that?

Well, I mean, you got to, you got to be willing to challenge the contacts from the very beginning. I mean, the question you got to be willing to ask is like, you know, that there are a lot of people out there now, we got a lot of competitors. You get, you get people that are good. I mean, I'm impressed with our competitors. "What made you choose us?" Now, if they, if they don't give you an answer that you're in trouble. You know, that "I found you on Google." Yeah. Well, they, you know, they, if they say, "I found you on Google," they haven't chosen you, right? Or, you know, a big one is, "Will you tell me this? We're right back on." Yeah. You, you're in trouble now. You're in trouble right now. But you, you hope that you have such a great value proposition, you can win the day. You hope these sales skills are so good, you could win the day. And you won't take, you won't listen. You know, and that's the biggest problem. I mean, the biggest thing is that customers, clients, people who are buying, they hate not being listened to more than anything else. And yet, every salesperson wants to make a case, wants to make a value proposition, wants to tell why they're the best choice. By definition, that is not listening. Should you almost disqualify more than you qualify? You should be ready to instantly disqualify somebody. Now, I think the number is is well in excess of 50%. So if, if that's any more true, and we've got clients now that we're coaching on this, you're telling us that the number can be as high as 80%, then just by sheer numbers, yeah, you should be just qualifying more than you talk to. I mean, everybody out there, you know, some of the stats, and some of the stats out there, 3% of the 3% of the people there are, you should convert. 3%. Then that means that 95, 97% of the meet is qualified. But nobody acts like that's the case. Although everybody knows that those, what the stats are. Yeah, that's unfortunate because I think that we're in this world of like short-term results, which is driving bad behavior, which is preventing people from, you know, what I mean, wanted like forcing all most reps, especially young ones who are inexperienced and haven't gone through the heart of having a huge pipeline that nothing closes in, you know, they. So we push them towards these monthly things, which drives bad behavior. So I don't, I actually am, I'm worried that we're in this world where we're in there, almost a transition world. I think right now, where it used to be a numbers game, and so that's kind of how sales was approached in a lot of ways. And so kind of Gen Xers, like that's how we grew up. I mean, when I grew up in sales was, "Here's your quota, here's your territory, there's a phone, go." Okay? Right now, I think everybody understands qualies the issue. Empathize qualies the answer. But we're stuck in this old school mentality forcing, because it's way easier to coach towards numbers. Like, "Did you make your 50 dials today? Did you hit your quota today?" Versus actually coaching on quality. So is there a way as managers, for instance, we can help drive and help reps drive short-term results while having that tactical empathy, while having that disqualification mentality, especially in, you know, you were a lot of publicly traded companies, you know what I mean? If they miss their numbers on a quarterly basis, you know, all of a sudden Wall Street comes down on them pretty hard. So are there things that you talk to people about about how to put them in a position to be able to listen while still hitting their numbers and those short-term results that we're looking for?

Yeah, you know, I mean, it's, it's stupidly simple. You know, all you're gonna do is change the way you evaluate on me compensated. Nobody's willing to do that. I mean, I, I gave a keynote presentation to a company the other day that I'm really

I'm impressed with because of their dedication to their clients. It's so P, and I'm sitting around with them at dinner, and I'm like, "Wow, you guys, you guys, you guys learn fast. You guys seem to like each other." I mean, I'm blown away at not only how fast you guys learn but the fact that you guys enjoy working together.

And one of the executives said, "Yeah, well, you know, one of our main core vices. We can't let our clients fail." Which means work. They all unify over this great purpose. Can't let you know because they agree that they got to knock themselves out for the clients. So that goes back to the value conversation, right? Yeah.

But at the same time, though, you know, in the train station, they said, "Alright, so how do we handle a procurement guy calling us with two days left in the course?" I said, "That's easy. Don't make the deal." But value. Stop grading your people on quarterly results. You're taking your people hostage if you're putting them on quarterly results. I got news for you. That procurement guy, he's praying to God because he thinks he's got leverage for 48 hours, and he or she is not prepared to wait three more months for this window to come back up. So, in reality, the person on the other side is a lot more scared than you are.

If you're just willing to accept that, that they think they're done if they don't cut the deal with you next 48 hours, but they're taking themselves hostage over quarterly results. And you just said something, you know, Wall Street's holding these on these people to quarterly results only. If you care for Wall Street, bad-mouth sure, or only if you care if you stop fix dips by five, five cents. And as soon as you pull yourself, as soon as you stop taking yourself hostage over quarterly results, as soon as you stop taking your people hostage over quarterly results, now they can perform. Now, now, now, with two days left in a quarter, they're not scared to death. They're willing to wait.

So how would you do? How if you would have built a company and compensate, what to compensate? You know, we do have to drive results on a consistent basis, right? So it all doesn't happen at the end of the year or something like that. So, kind of in a utopic scenario, if you, well, what would your best approach to organizations be as far as compensating sales reps on their on their results? There's a fair amount of data out there that sales reps do better if they just don't straight salary, okay? You know, so, you know, take a look at the people that are working for you. You know, everybody responds to compensation differently. I mean, be willing to tailor your compensation. Some people just, some guys just want to work on commission. They want it all. Sky's the limit. You know, you got that guy, guy or gal, fine. They thrive under that environment.

Some people just want to know that they can make their monthly mortgage payment. And if, if they're satisfied they can make that payment, then work 24/7 for you. I mean, you know, when I, when I was with the FBI, I was on straight salary. I was, I worked my last seven years on the job. I don't know that I had two days off in a row because I loved what I was doing. I mean, I was into it. I mean, people used to say to me, "Breeze, what you do?" I didn't have to worry about how much money was coming in the door. I knew exactly how much money was coming in on my paycheck every two weeks, and I was the type of person that would just knock myself out because they didn't have to worry about the amount of money that was coming in. So, you know, be willing to tailor your compensation to your people so that they can thrive. And then have an ongoing conversation with them and make sure they continue to thrive because there's a pretty good chance that however you dial it up for them at the very beginning is gonna be wrong or at least need adjustment. So say, "Alright, so here's a compensation package that we're gonna start out with, and then let's talk about how things are going in three months, in four months, in five months to see whether or not you're thriving and let's make the adjustments so you can thrive." I mean, and look, I'm running my company, and that's the way that that's we're changing our compensation slightly, tweaking it all the time because we want our people to thrive.

Going back to that procurement example that you used, and also bad behavior by reps. When I, one of the things I come across all the time, and and I, you know, biggest challenge I see sales reps having is creating urgency. Like, how do you, how to create urgency when it's seemingly not there, right? When when they don't have to do it, it's a like to have, not a must-have, those types of things, right? What do you try to do to uncover urgency so that the reps don't default to end-of-month discounting and those type of sad, sad things? Any insights on urgency in the issue? What's top of mind with people, and what can you count on to consistently either people, you know, the great question. You know, what's keeping you up at night? All right? So you, yeah, you got to get in their head and find out what's keeping them up at night. And then, you know, you know, there's a presumption here that what you're offering actually has value. I mean, one of the, one of the great, your greatest sales pitches I ever heard. A gentleman had a company that put together a compensation package, retirement packages for executives, you know, effectively golden handcuffs. No, we put together such a great package for you, you're never gonna leave. So was pension investing, golden handcuffs, if you will. So his pitch to companies wasn't, "Here's how much money I can make for you. Here's how much I can help you retain your executives." He said, "Let us take a look at the package that you've got now, and we'll compare what we could do versus what you're doing." And then he would come back and say, "Alright, stay where you are. Now, don't change a thing. And this is how much it's gonna cost you every day." Okay? That keeps people up at night. When the status quo, you need top of mind. When the static, when your vision of what's going on now, when will you perceive the status quo to be to be costing you every day, day in and day out? That's what keeps people tough. That's what keep saying, keeps things top of mind.

And so, cuz I believe that, you know, there's, I don't know if you follow Gong, but you know, the Gong.io blog. I don't. So if you caught a lot of stats, go to Gong.io and check out their blog. They got one blog post, it's 55 sales tips that the best sales tips you've ever read. And it's, and it's off the charts because if they do, they use artificial intelligence to analyze phone calls, like millions of phone calls that reps make through their system, and they tailor like what, you know, great people do versus what average people do. And one of their things is, you know, the number one goal that we have as sales professionals is to get you to it. Before I can sell you anything, I have to get you to agree that status quo is not okay. Like, you have to make a change. And if you can, if I can't convince you that you have to make a change, then the rest of that stuff doesn't matter. So, for instance, like selling to the C-suite, it's about coming up with your Nexus. Like, what do you believe that that, in this industry, is a polarizing statement that either people get people to say, "Holy [ __ ] yes," or "No, I completely disagree." So in our world right now, you know, sales training, one of my Nexuses is, I think sales methodologies are [ __ ]. I think the historical sales methodology is [ __ ]. And because if you're not in agile sales right now and constantly iterating and trying new things, you're going to be a dinosaur. If you subscribe to any one singular methodology. Now, there are people out there that are flat-out methodology people. You know, I'm a Miller Heiman guy. I'm an AS guy. I'm a Sandler guy. That type of stuff. And going back to values, like, you and I aren't on the same page, so let's stop talking now. But once you hit that Nexus, then it's, what's the statistic that says we're, you know, whether you like it or not, the industry is changing, and so you have to make a change. And then you talked about your unique piece there, and then you share a story. So it's kind of a four-step process of selling to the C-suite, which I'm a huge fan of. So do you agree that it's our first job to get people to commit to the fact that they have to make a change? Well, the status quo's got to be the problem. Yeah, yeah. The status quo's got to be the source of loss.

How big of a loss does that have to be in order to get you to move? It's an interesting question. I mean, loss things twice as much as an equivalent gain, according to prospect theory, would say, won a Nobel Prize for in behavioral economics. And Danny Kahneman then gave an interview where he said that it's actually five times as much. We just lowered the number to two because we want fewer arguments from our academic colleagues. So, in any loss is a distorted perception. So you got to find out what's in the other guy's head, you know, guide generic guy or gal. And it's not something you can calculate in advance because your calculations are not bent by the feeling of loss the way it is when a person you're talking to. And so there's a lot. So, so I'm trying to focus a lot more these days on like impact questions. Like, how can I ask questions that uncover the impact of you making this or not making this decision? But what are your thoughts on like quantifying that impact and like, you know, and going to down the road of like ROI calculator type stuff? Because, and you know, some reason I ask is because I've always looked at our live calculator, even if a rep uses my numbers and all that other stuff, you know, okay, fine, that dollar figure, good. But there's still something that I don't trust about it. So what's your stance on quantifiable pain, if you will, and then using that? But but it's not always as obvious that. Now, I don't, I don't think you can do it. Not at all. I mean, because that, and here's an example. One of the, one of the negotiation cases at Harvard that Wiest exercises all the time is called "Radio Station," the sale of a radio station, where the guy who was selling was just not taking any sort of offer whatsoever for his radio station. That ended up being a real case that Roger Fisher, that, you know, the author of "Getting to Yes," actually solved. The interesting thing about Roger Fisher is his emotional intelligence was through the roof. There isn't any emotional intelligence in "Getting to Yes." It is utterly rational. And people are utterly emotional, which is why, unfortunately, "Getting to Yes" is not going to do any good. But I remember hearing this story, and when Roger Fisher solved this and got the guy to sell the radio station, you would talk to the guy. The guy said, "My wife's gonna kill me if I sell this radio station." So how do you calculate that ROI? Yeah. I forget, I think Gary Vaynerchuk's the one who says, "How do you calculate the ROI of your mom?" You know what I mean? I mean, so what what's really driving at people is not gonna be quantifiable in a spreadsheet. And you can sit down and run every number that they give you and have them agree that everything about your analysis is flawless, and it's gonna cost them this amount of money, and it's not gonna matter to them because of what's really driving them is gonna be some emotional factor that you can't put in a spreadsheet. And so with that, to your point of, you know, going back to urgency, they're losing, you know, by not doing this, losing every day. Like that that example that you used right there. Okay, so great, I'm losing, you know, by not doing this, I'm, yeah, okay, I'm losing a hundred thousand dollars a day. What's missing is that is there is there that the emotional connection to it? Like, "Hey, I don't like, yeah, that makes sense, and we're losing $100,000 a day by not doing this. I get it." Was there something else other than that number that got that deal to go through? Well, yeah. Now, if somebody, if you, if you're not making a case based on your numbers, and you're not paying any attention to what's driving them, okay? So, yeah, you, you, you got to get in there and find out what's going on. I mean, this gets us back into get into their head and find out what they're really seeing. And you're not gonna be able to find that out unless you unless you come in with an emotional intelligence approach, which assumes that people are not rational. And that, you know, it's, it's the iceberg is the cliché to everything, but the unfortunately, the reason it keeps coming up is there's more here than meets the eye, and your analysis is based on what meets the eye. So how does it possible your analysis could be accurate? I could keep this conversation going forever. I got one more question that I'm personally curious about. You talk a lot about mirroring, where you say the last three words or what somebody says, and the power of that, and then you just shut up. Mirroring versus layering. Example, when you object, okay? Or when you say something that's like, "Look, we don't have the budget for this." Mirroring is, "So you don't have the budget?" So let it sit. So layering would be, "Help me understand what you mean by you don't have the budget." Is one more powerful than the other? Because what you're both trying to do is get them to talk more and really uncover the true, like, meaning behind what they're saying. Is there a difference between that, and do you see one as more valid than the other in certain circumstances? Yeah, well, yeah, absolutely. Because, to begin with, if you're at the point where somebody says, "We don't have a budget," and you say, "Help me understand what you mean by you don't have a budget," you're telling them that you've not been paying attention up to now. Kind of a very simple example, plate, but you just see what I'm saying? Like layering questions. Does it tell me more about that? Could you explain to me? Could you give me an example of versus all that? By the first thing you said, "Tell me more about that." That's not a question, it's a command. And then you followed up with two straight yes-oriented questions with your trap questions. Okay? But nobody wants to say yes to any. She hit me with what three straight bad communication techniques. That "tell me more about that" is not a question, it's a command. It's a grant for autonomy. It's an attempt to take control of a conversation. Taking control is taking away somebody's autonomy, which we will die to preserve our time. But when you talk about calibrated questions, isn't don't you talk about how you want to make the illusion of of them on in control when you're actually in command? Well, we want to have the upper hand. We want to have control. Yes. And and I'll taste something else. We don't try to get information by asking questions. These questions to shape thoughts. Questioning to gather information is a third of the people that you run into will be so. So with it. And two-thirds of them are not gonna like it at all. The very, the very analytical person, every time you ask them a question, they stop and they think, "I have to think through the implications of every possible answer before I get back to you, so I can't answer you for at least two days." So, yeah, so, so I mean, we don't really use questions.

Alright, so if somebody, somebody says, "What was that?" "It's too much." "What was your example before?" So it's like, "It's, we don't have the budget for this." Yeah, "We don't have a bunch of it." "It's out of our budget range or something." Right? So you, you want to demonstrate understanding. What do they tell you if they don't have the budget for it? They're telling you one of two things: either under pressure, or what you're offering is not delivering adequate value. The value alignment. So a demonstration of understanding would be, "Seek first to understand, then be understood." "Demonstrate understanding." Sounds like the value is just not there for you. They had just communicated to you very clearly that something's wrong with your proposition. And instead of you demonstrating any understanding of that in any way, shape, or form, instead, you want to challenge them as if they weren't listening. "Help me understand here. Well, what's not here for you?" Which is equivalent to saying, you know, "You haven't been paying attention." So I'm gonna have to go over my value proposition again because you're not paying attention. So let me, let me see if I can isolate where you weren't paying attention so I can go back and correct you. I mean, that's what you're communicating when you say, "Help me understand what about this isn't valuable for you?" And, and in most cases, a lot of people probably say it in a tone of voice that indicates that you think they're stupid. Yeah. So, but to say, "Sounds like the value is just not here for you," is an indication of understanding, and it's an invitation to fix it. And it's taking responsibility on your side to be to be responsive to them instead of them being responsive to you. And what you're searching for is the "that's right," not "you're right." Well, exactly. At some point of time, you get, you, you, if somebody saying "you're right" to you, they're trying to finish the interaction. They go, "All you want to watch." It's the same reason why you don't say, "I understand." Because what's the, what's the negative part of me like after you tell me? So just one about summarizing and rephrasing back to you. But then after you tell me something, me saying, "I understand." What's the danger of that? Well, alright, let's pretend like you actually do understand. Right? But when you say that, they're not clear on what you understand. I mean, you're trying to give them the Cliff Notes version of it. I mean, how do they, if you say, "On, I understand," how did they know? How do they really know that they got their points across if you don't repeat back to them the points that they, in fact, that across? I mean, you know, since we were kids, we played the telephone game. You know, tell somebody a secret. By the time you tell four other people, the secret's completely changed. I mean, it's, it's nearly impossible to hear somebody's side of things the first time and get it right. So to say, "I understand," if you do, chances are, let's see, you're the best listener in the world. Chances are, you've got it 80% right, and you're taking a real risk on a percentage that you got wrong. So, "I understand" is that's just too nebulous. You tell me that you understand, I'm not sure I'm getting a warm and fuzzy feeling they actually do. In most cases, "I understand" precedes, "But here's where you're wrong." Is it, is it okay to say, "Let me make sure I heard you correctly," and then rephrase it back to them? Or is there a better way of of summarizing what you heard from them that makes them more open to understand that you really do understand? No, that's not bad at all. I mean, you know, we don't coach people to say it like that. There are other ways of saying it. I mean, "Let me make sure I heard you correctly" is a command, and it's a, it's a grab at control again, and it's to take autonomy from the other side. And, you know, I mean, I just--that's just commands. Just they just don't sit well with other people. I mean, if you're a frontline salesperson, and your CEO sat you down, you, you might be a little bit slow to say, "Tell me more about that," or "Let me make sure I understand." You know, you might, you might want to demonstrate your understanding, or you might change the tone of voice. But, you know, we like a deference to begin with, which is not to take control. You know, we love deference as an approach because there's great, there's great power in deference. I mean, we love deference because everybody loves it. If I'm deferential to you, you're gonna give me a lot more opportunity to talk. Because I'm deferential, you're gonna feel like you can stop me at any time. I mean, we love, we love deference. So it's more in the sense of, "It seems like you're those that," instead of, "Let me make sure I heard this correctly" scenario. Yeah. And again, tone of voice is gonna make a big difference. When you get away with a lot of bad words with great tone. You know, and we were on a coaching call just the other day, and, you know, we coach people to identify negatives. Identifying a negative diffuses. And you say, "Okay, that makes sense to me." And we say, "And identifying a negative never plants it." And they go, "Okay, that makes sense to me." And then we say, "Alright, so let's be proactive. Let's say, are you proud?" "You probably upset with us?" "Oh my god, that's..." You know, they they're gonna respond to us. "Well, I wasn't, but I am now." But wait a second, two seconds ago, you agreed that we couldn't plant negatives, and now you're now you're arguing. So we'll get somebody arguing with us. And so I just stopped and I said, "So it sounds like when I said, 'Identify negatives doesn't plant them,' you thought it was wrong." Now, listen, listen, that my tone was clear there, right? And I could have said, "So it sounds to me like when I said, 'Identify negatives doesn't plant them,' you thought I was wrong." Same words, different tone of voice. On a second one, kills me. But the first one, you know, I'm the, the tone of voice. I'm makes all the difference in the world. I mean, I'm a thousand percent convinced that, you know, the Wolf of Wall Street, Jordan Belfort, hey, you know, everybody wants to learn from Jordan Belfort. God, no. And what they do, right? Yeah. So what, what was there, what was there to learn from him? And in my view, well, the guy, I think the guy mastered tonality. I mean, a thousand, and clearly mastered something because he wouldn't know 100 million dollars in restitution, which means he stole way more than that. You know, but I mean, so what did he do? Because, yeah, you take a look at straight-line selling, and it's no matter what the client says, your widget is the answer. I mean, by definition, that is not listening. So how did, how did he, how did he get over so much? And in my view, the guy mastered tonality. And and that is something that's fair for anybody to master. Yeah, I'm not a fan otherwise. Don't get me wrong. You know, guy was the only reason that if you should ever considered buying his book would be to help give some of the 100 million dollars back because he owes restitution based on book sales. Whenever anybody asks me what my favorite sales movies are, you know, and they, "Wolf of Wall Street," "Boiler Room," "Glengarry Glen Ross." They tell him, "No, there's literally the worst sales movies I've ever seen in my life." You know, they're great movies, they're funny, but they're literally everything that's wrong about selling. Yeah, everything that's wrong about selling. And I tell them to go look. The two best sales movies under, actually, I'll finish with this, and want to understand what yours are. My two favorite sales movies: "Pursuit of Happyness," right? Will Smith. Wow. And "Tommy Boy." You ever watch "Tommy Boy"? I didn't. I never thought of as the salesman. But, you know, it's a great thought because I talked about catching your sales groove, right? And there's there's a moment in every sales rep's life where they wake up, and it's just a little bit easier today than it was yesterday. And you don't know what it was, but it's when you stop pitching your solutions and you start having conversations about your solutions, hearing more about the client's needs than you do about your commission check. And there's that beautiful moment in "Tommy Boy" where he catches the sales groove. Helen, look like a Helen, let me tell you why I suck as a sales rep. And he goes through this whole, like, "Jojo the idiot circus boy with a pretty good pet." And she's like, "Wow, you're twisted." "You'll go fire up those wings. Tell me like you, tell me what winging." And in that moment, he was he would be caught in a sales groove because before that, he was pitching. He was trying to be like his dad. You could stick your head up a butcher's ass, type of stuff, right? And couldn't figure it out. And then after then, it was just him. And it was empathy. It was self-deprecation. And so it's a, it's a beautiful sales movie. If you should get a chance to go see it again, I'll probably go back and watch it again. Yeah, you put this lens on because I, you fight your first is like, "Yeah, that's fun." You know, big fat guy making fun of himself. But look at what the sales lens on it. It's, it's a blast. That's really cool. Yeah. All right, very good. You know, well, then I look at it through a different lens. I look at it through negotiation, right? As opposed to as opposed to sales. It's a lens I'm gonna have to go back and take another look at it. Awesome. Well, Chris, this has been, like I said, I think I'd love to have an entire day with you asking all these questions just for myself and learning online. But, um, but I think we gotta cut this. Tell everybody how they can learn more. I know public workshops, I know you got your blog, I know you got a bunch of things. So tell everybody how they can find out more information. And pretty much mandate, I'm gonna mandate everybody who listens to me go pick up "Never Split the Difference" if they haven't already, because it's, it's one of my favorite negotiation. Thanks. So how can people learn more? Yeah, well, our newsletter/blog is a great supplement to the book. I mean, a lot of people get a long way out just the book and the blog. Long also, you know, the newsletter is a gateway to everything. It training announcements, a gateway to the website. You know, we're training across the country. The announcements are in the newsletter. It's short, it's sweet, and it's free. It's, it's not a lot of work. Some newsletters are a lot of work. Yeah. And the best way to sign up for the newsletter is, and we got a text-to-sign-up function. Okay? To the number 22828. And the number you're texting to again is 22828. The message you send to that number is FBI empathy, all one word. Don't let the spellcheck put a space between FBI and empathy. Make sure it's one word. Then FBI empathy, one word, to 22828. You get a response back asking for your email address. You're signed up. Off to the races. Yeah. You know, I think I read "Never Split the Difference" probably about 10-15 years ago. So with our interview here and refresh myself, but one of the biggest things I went to is that blog and just picked up a lot of them nuggets and the tips along the way that really are, if you put that entire blog together, you'd pretty much have "Never Split the Difference." But I'm a big micro-learner as far as those tips and nuggets and small things that we can do. A little proof. So I really appreciate what you do, Chris. Thanks, man. Cool. Well, this has been awesome. Everybody, hopefully, you as much value out of this as I did. Check out Chris's blog, check out his workshops that he's doing, and bring him into your company. I know, you know, I do negotiation training too, but this is next-level [ __ ] here. So bring Chris and go to some of those public workshops. And hope everybody got some value. Thank you all very much. Have a great week. And go make somebody happy today. If you do nothing else and you make somebody smile, you know you had a good day. Thank you all very much. Make it happen. Thanks, Chris. All right, man. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.