Gretchen Rubin, "Outer Order, Inner Calm"

Thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. I guess lots of happy and it's so cool. I love being back in this beautiful place again. At six and I, and there's nothing like seeing Washington D.C.'s cherry blossoms to put you in the mood for some spring cleaning. So we are ready to jump in. So I'm gonna talk for 30 to 40 minutes about, you know, spoiler alert, outer order. And then we're gonna have some time for your questions. So be thinking of your questions because that's always my favorite part.

Now, sometimes people ask me, what is my subject? And my subject is human nature. I'm interested in who we are, why do we do what we do, how can we change if we want to change? And for that reason, I've been thinking and talking to people for years about subjects like happiness, good habits, self-knowledge. And I noticed something surprising over and over. You know, I'd be talking to people about things like, how do we engage more deeply with the people we love? Or how do we make more time to read? Or how do we know ourselves better? And people would be very interested in this. I'm super interested in it. We'd have a great conversation. But then the subject would turn to outer order, and people would get fired up. There's something about this subject that just has a special emotional buzz to it. I mean, hate the question of make your bed. How many people here regularly make their bed? Yes. How many people here regularly make their bed in a hotel room on the morning they check out? Your hand went up right away. Yes. We will talk later. I think there's just something about this subject. There's just a buzz to it. There's an emotional charge to it that doesn't really make sense because we can all agree that in the context of a happy life, something like a crowded coat closet or a messy desk, it's trivial. And yet, over and over, people tell me, and I certainly feel this way myself, that when we get more control over the stuff in our lives, we feel more in control of our lives generally. And if it's an illusion, it's a helpful illusion.

How many people here have listened to the Happier with Gretchen Rubin podcast? Okay. Yes. Great. Oh, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay. Well, you've heard me talk about Elizabeth. So the thing about outer order is that some people are clutter blind. Some people don't feel it. Elizabeth doesn't feel it. It doesn't drain her. It doesn't overwhelm her. If she didn't live with other people, she would not close a kitchen cabinet door as long as she lived. But she does live with other people. And for most people, outer order does contribute to inner calm and a sense of energy and a sense of focus and even a sense of possibility. I was talking to a friend who said, you know, I finally cleaned out my fridge and now I know I could switch careers. I know exactly how that feels.

So why, why is there this deep, disproportionate connection between outer order and inner calm for most people? Well, there's many reasons. One, just on the most superficial level, life is easier. You can find things. Research suggests that the average American adult spends 55 minutes a day looking for misplaced objects. Imagine what you could do with 55 minutes in your day. So it's easier to find things. It's easier to put things away. It's easier to clean. You don't have to run out to the hardware store and buy a tape measure, even though you know perfectly well you have a tape measure somewhere. Life is just easier and freer when we get rid of the old files, the old storage containers. We just feel lighter. And also, clearing clutter, creating outer order, often rids us of things that make us feel bad. Sometimes our stuff makes us feel bad. Like maybe I have a pair of boots and I spent too much money on those and I don't wear those boots, but I should wear those boots, but I don't wear those boots, but I could wear those boots, but I don't feel like wearing those boots today. And so I don't wear them. And they just sit there accusingly. Then there's the unfinished project. I started a 1,000-piece puzzle on my dining room table. I've about 30 pieces in and it just sits there. What am I gonna do? I can't stop. I've already started. I don't feel like doing it. But so there it sits. Or there are possessions that we have that are related to the fantasy self. You know, I have a fantasy that I'm gonna learn to play guitar. So I buy a guitar and I buy a music stand, I buy music. And yet I'm not teaching myself to play guitar. And so the guitar just sits there. I myself just recently got rid of a pair of leather pants. I mean, what was I thinking? I had those things for years and I finally got them off my shelves and off my conscience. So by creating outer order, we eliminate these things that make us feel bad.

And here's something that's surprising is that when we get rid of the stuff that's kind of clogging our vision, we often feel more engaged with what we have. And my sister Elizabeth calls me a happiness bully because I can't be quite insistent if I think there's an opportunity for you to be happier. And I want to get right in there. And so one of the ways this comes out is I begged my friends to let me come over and help them clear their clutter because for me, it's like the contact high of all the clutter clearing, but none of the emotional uneasiness that you get when it you have to make decisions about your own stuff. So I love it. So and I've had an experience over and over, and I just felt this way myself. So let's say I'm helping a friend go through clothes clutter. So we'll go through their closet and take out maybe two or three bags of stuff to donate. And the person walks back to the closet, gazes inside and says, wow, I feel like I have so much more to wear. We just objectively not true because there are fewer items in the closet. And yet, when we get rid of all the things that are in our way, then we feel more engaged with the things we have. We want them. We want to use them. We know they fit. We know they're there. You know, sometimes you get in there. You know, one time, I hope I was helping my husband clean out his closet. I was holding up pairs of pants, you know, keeper or donate. And he looked at one point and said, I have never seen that pair of pants before in my life. Like somebody snuck in here one night and hung them. So he wasn't wearing them. He wasn't enjoying them. So he could either wear them and enjoy them or give them away to somebody who could wear them. And so when we do this, we feel more engaged. And that's a good feeling.

And then there's another reason why outer order contributes to inner calm. And it's really a much more profound reason. Sometimes people feel uneasy about the idea of seeking out order. They think it seems selfish or self-centered. You know, you think with everything that's going on in the world today, this is really superficial. This is a distraction. And yet, research shows, and I think common experience reflects, that when we do things to help ourselves to feel happier and calmer and to boost our own sense of self-mastery, that's when we're able to turn outward and to think about the problems of other people and the problems of the world. And often, by tackling what seemed like pretty minor challenges, we actually prepare ourselves to go out and deal with much bigger challenges.

Something that's important to remember, though, is that we're not all the same. There's no magic one-size-fits-all solution for how to go about this because we all have different habits, we have different challenges, we want to arrive in different places. And when we do this in a way to suit ourselves, we're much better able to create and maintain order in a way that works for us. So in the book, I've got like 150 things to think about. And I would like to talk about all 150, but we don't have time. So I'm gonna hit the big ones, the questions that come up over and over, and the tips that seem to resonate to most people. And of course, the first question that anybody asks is, where do you start? Because we've all had that experience of just like, oh my gosh, this is so overwhelming. I don't even know where to begin. So where do you start? Well, I will tell you where you should not start. Don't stare. Start by declaring that you're gonna get organized. Don't get organized. People who are gonna get organized often have this impulse to run to the store and buy complicated sets of hangers, inventive storage containers, filing cabinets, binders. I do not know. It is what it is about people and our binders like it because like people just want to buy binders. No, don't get organized. If you get rid of everything you don't want to keep, you may not need to organize something at all. I have this jacket. Just talking to a guy last week, and he was saying how he had a lot of paperwork and he had vowed that he was gonna get organized and he was gonna, you know, sort it and put it in chronological order and three-hole punch and the whole business. Then he realized that it was actually mostly related to pet insurance. And he realized that he did not need to have this extensive files of his pet insurance. And besides, it was all online. So he really said, could this get rid of all of it? So he had nothing left to organize. And surprisingly, this, this happens. We read everything that you don't need to keep. A lot of times you don't need to get organized. It on. You just put it away. You don't need a filing cabinet if you just have three pieces of paper that fit into a manila folder that go into your the top drawer of your desk.

So then the question is, okay, but how do you decide? How do you decide what to hang on to? What do you decide to keep? What do you relinquish? What do you toss? What do you recycle? What do you donate? I think the most helpful question to me is, do I love it? Do I use it? Do I need it? Sometimes we have stuff we just love. And I think there's room in our hearts, in our homes, for some of that stuff within reason. For example, in my case, one of the things that I just love. It. Do you remember years and years ago, there was this fad and it's these, it's like a poster and it looks like this, just like a pattern. Magic eye. It looks like a pattern, but if you kind of blur your eyes and go like, move forward and backwards, like a three-dimensional thing pops out. So I have a book of postcards of magic eye designs. And every three to five years, I pull it out. I'm just like, whew, you know, and I love it. What do I get? I'm not gonna send the postcards because I want them. I mean, nobody else cares. Do I really need it? Do I use it that often? I really, I just love it. So I'm gonna keep that. Another stuff that you use and you need. You know, like I have a pair of scissors. And I don't have a particularly strong emotional attachment to those scissors, but they do their little job well. So I'm gonna keep these scissors. But if you don't use it, need it, or love it, that is like the charging cord to nowhere. You know, like the weird things that just accumulate in the corner of the cabinets or, you know, in a basket somewhere, and you have no idea what that thing is. If you don't need it, use it, or love it, probably it's something that you can get rid of. You know, the bread maker from five years ago. Okay, you don't need that. You don't use it. You don't need it. You don't love it. Just let it move on.

And here's a funny test that many people respond to that has to do with clothes clutter, which is one of the most annoying kinds. And that is to consider the X factor. So imagine with an item of clothing, you are walking down the street and you run into your ex. Are you happy that you are wearing that item of clothing? You're thinking, yes. Then keep it. If you're really, really weighting that oversized sweatshirt, maybe it's time to let that thing go.

And yet, there is an easier, faster, cheaper way to create outer order. And that's not to let the stuff in the front door in the first place. Keep it. Yeah. Just keep it out. Keep it out. Because once it gets in, we have to figure out what to do with it. So how do you do that? One thing to do is recognize if you have a certain kind of clutter, which I would call anticipatory clutter or preparatory clutter. This is the person that's like, this thing would make a great birthday present for someone. I don't know anybody who's got a birthday coming up, but I think I'll just go ahead and get this thing now. And then is this like you got to deal with that thing. What you can't do if you have a tendency to do that is you could just store it at the store. They won't hang onto that for you. They haven't put away very nicely. And whenever you decide that you want it, you go get it. But for now, you'll just leave it there. That's one way to keep things out.

Another way stuff comes in is impulse purchases. It's 11 o'clock at night. You had a glass of wine. Quick, quick, quick. And then you end up with something you don't need, use, or love. So if this is something that is a temptation for you, an easy solution is to delete your accounts. This means that every time you shop, you have to shop as a guest, which means you have to enter your billing information, your credit card information, and your shipping information. It's not an insurmountable hurdle if there's something you really want or need, but it's enough of a hassle that often people are like, yeah, you know what, I just, I'll deal with it some other time. And then you never think of it again. Or if your temptation is when you're in a store, don't take a basket or a cart. Because if you have to carry that stuff around with you as you go around the store, a lot of times, again, it's just not worth the inconvenience. It's not worth the effort. So then you think, oh, come back and deal with it another time. And then again, it just never occurs to you.

And also, be very wary of freebies, conference swag, hand-me-downs, bargains. Things that feel free can end up costing us a lot of time and money because we have to deal with it. It's like, yes, you went to a conference and they gave you this super cute cow-shaped pencil sharpener and you're like, okay. And then you bring it home and you're like, what do you do with the cow-shaped sharpener? Where do you put it? You don't even own any pencils. I mean, it's like, what do you now you got to figure out what to do with it? It's too good to just throw away, but who, nobody wants it. My own temptation is tote bags. I cannot resist a tote bag. In fact, just last night I was in Plano, Texas, and they handed me a tote bag. And even though I had literally just said that I did not want to take tote bags, it took every ounce of my strength. And I don't think I would have been able to resist the tote bag except somebody else said, oh, I'll take the tote bag if you don't want it. I was like, yes, please take it. Save me from myself. I cannot resist a tote bag. There's only so many tote bags one, if you're, you know, one person can use, one family can use, I mean, one apartment building can use. I can cover everybody. So be very careful about these things.

And here's the thing. Sometimes people say to me, well, I don't want to deal with outer order because I don't want to contribute to the landfill. But here's the sad truth. We contribute to the landfill the minute we reach out for that thing. Because whether the cow-shaped pencil sharpener goes into the landfill tomorrow, or whether it goes in there forty years from now, when my children do a Swedish death cleaning on my apartment, it's going there. So if we want to keep things out of the landfill, don't take them. Because that's where they're going once we have them.

Something else to think about is how do we keep clutter maintained once we've created it? Because everybody's had the very discouraging experience of spending an entire day or afternoon, you know, weekend cleaning up the kitchen or cleaning out an office, and then a week later, it's like nothing ever changed. And so how do you maintain it once you've got it going so that you don't have to keep doing these sort of heroic efforts? It's much easier to keep up than to catch up. And so we want to have habits that will help us maintain it as we go along.

So one of the things that has really worked for a lot of people is the one-minute rule. This is a rule that anything you can do without delay, you just go ahead and do it. If you can hang up your coat on a hook instead of throwing it on a chair, if you can put, rip open a letter, scan it, and realize you don't need it and toss it, just do that without delay. And what that does is it gets rid of the that this task that are sort of the scum on the surface of life where they're not, they're not a big deal on their own, but when you just look at a whole bunch of them, it just makes you feel weighed down. So the one-minute rule is a very manageable way to do it as you go.

The other one, kind of related, is power hour, which is when you take an hour, just an hour, once a week, and tackle these tasks that kind of mount up and clutter your brain and clutter your house. Because things that can be done at any time are often done at no time. So I'm like, you know, I need to get new heels put on these shoes. So I think I will put them on the kitchen counter, right by the coffee machine, where they do not belong. But if I put them there, I will remember to take them to the shoe place. A week goes by, a month goes by, six months go by. There's no sitting there. Because why am I gonna go to the shoe place today? But power hour is a way to accumulate these little tasks and then just an hour at a time to do them. We often overestimate what we can do in a short amount of time, like an afternoon, and we underestimate what we can do in a little amount of time if we do it consistently over the long term.

And here is a strategy that a friend of mine told me about, and I have to confess, I was very skeptical when she told me. Was like, well, I'll try anything. So, okay, I'll give it a shot. And this is the rule to take one thing with you. So let's say I'm in my home office and I have a dirty coffee cup and I'm going to the bedroom. So I will take it with me to the bedroom. I'm not gonna take it to the kitchen because who could be bothered to go to the kitchen? But I will take it with me to the bedroom, which is sort of closer to the kitchen. That's how it works. And I said to my friend, I don't think that you understand that you're just shuffling clutter around your house. She said, no, no, no, try it. And the fact is, it really works. It's much quicker. Things just get into their place much more quickly. And again, it's the kind of thing that you can do as you go. You don't have to take a time out of your day if you don't want to. These are things that are just very concrete and manageable for even people who are very overwhelmed.

It's also important to ask ourselves, what kind of person are we? Why do we have the clutter that we have? And how might other people be different? Because we all want to end up at different places. One question to ask yourself is, are you an overbuyer or an underbuyer? Some people are neither. Overbuyers are the people who love to buy. They love to go prepare for things. You know, they're going to get everything they possibly need for the summer. They're going to get everything they possibly need for a trip. They tend to accumulate large stores of slow-moving items like toothpaste or canned soup. And you can see how this contributes to clutter because they all this stuff they have to store, they have to manage it, they have to deal with it. It's like a pile builds up. Then there are underbuyers. And underbuyers don't like to buy things. They don't like to run errands. They don't like to get stuff. They often don't like specialized products. Like I'm an underbuyer. And it's only recently that I have really made peace with facial tissue. I said, I was really like, we, this is who needs this level of specialty? I mean, we could just blow our nose on toilet paper. You know, like I don't use hair conditioner. I'm like, what is that? You know, want to products? What is enough? So you like they put, what would under buyer's stuff clutter? Because they don't, they don't want to bring anything in. That's why they have clutter because the idea of having to go out and get something is so loathsome to them that they hang on to everything for fear that they might have to get it. So, you know, somebody gives me some hideous electric blue sweater that I don't like and I've never worn, but I hang on to it because I think, well, what if one day I did want an electric blue sweater? Like, what if I want to go get one? No, I would not. So underbuyers often hang onto things too much. And they need to remember, as I've often reminded myself, to let things go if they're not, if I don't use them, don't need them, don't love them, and then worry about it later if it turns out that I need something.

Another good question to ask is, are you a simplicity lover or an abundance lover? And this is important because really, people want to get to very different places when they are creating outer order. Not everyone wants to end up in the same place. So simplicity lovers are people like me. We like bare counters and a lot of room on the shelves. Like I literally have empty shelves in my house. I love that. Not that much on the wall, not that much going on. You know, it's one little vase with one little rosebud. That's a simplicity lover. But then there are abundance lovers. And they love profusion and choice and collections and buzz. They like piles of things with unexpected juxtapositions. They want stuff on the coffee table. And that's what they like. Not everyone wants a capsule wardrobe. And this can create conflict and disagreement because sometimes people say, I'm right, you're wrong. I'm a boss. And I say, a cluttered desk needs a cluttered mind. Maybe it does for me, but that doesn't mean the same thing is true for you. What to me feels like beautiful emptiness could feel stripped and sterile and like a timeshare to someone else because they're like, where's the stuff? People want to end up in very different places. And I was reminded of this because related to this difference is people who are counter bearers and people who are counter fillers. Like some people just walk bare counters, like me. I work like crazy to get everything off my counters. But then some people like stuff on the counters. And I went over to a friend's house and I had her counter next to things like the coffee machine, she had a bagel slicer, a jar of wooden spoons, a spoon rest, a big bottle of fancy olive oil, a giant pepper mill, a bottle of pain reliever. I mean, you know, on. And I was like, do you maybe want me to help me help you find some places to put this stuff away? Oh, no, I like having it out. You know, I like having things at the ready. I like to be able to see what I need right in front of me. So it's not clutter because she'd mindfully put those things there. She liked having them there. They were arranged just the way she wanted them. So it wasn't clutter. It wasn't my preference, but it's just, but it's not clutter. And so we always need to remember that people want to arrive in different places. And we have to create an environment where everyone can thrive. But it's not that everyone will necessarily agree.

Another important thing to be aware of is, do you procrustean? This is when the desire to procrastinate takes the form of vacuuming every floor in your house or something like that. And the way there is helpful preparation. You know, we've all done that thing where you have to write the annual report. So you, you know, you put the files away, you put the trash on the trash, get rid of the, you put the pens in the pen cup, you do all that stuff. And that helps you focus. That's helpful preparation. But then, [Music] procrastinate. I have to write the annual report. I'm looking around and I see that there's this bookshelf that I haven't really focused on in a while. It's full of stuff. I think that I need to take everything off that bookshelf, scrub it down, go through the books, alphabetize them, maybe color code them, who can say? And before I can possibly start work, that's four across declaring.

Another thing to watch out for is the accidental stockpile. This is when you accidentally acquire too much of a of something because it seems useful. You know, like your family eats lots of pickles and you're like, well, you can always use a good glass jar. And then pretty soon you have like 45 pickle jars. My daughter Eliza, when she was in kindergarten, she did a hundreds project. You know, how kids they have them do these projects so they grasp the number 100. So Eliza picked playing cards, which I thought was a very clever choice. But once our girl did a project that involved 100 ketchup packets. And so I said to her mother, how in the world did you get your hands on a hundred ketchup packets? And she said, are you kidding? We got a thousand ketchup packets because we got three jillion drawers in our kitchen full of ketchup packets. That's an accidental stockpile. He's like, what do you do with it now? I'm like, you're gonna have to like drive that to a food bank. Hi, you know, it's like, you know, you can say to them, no condiments, no utensils, food only. Like, don't let this ketchup into your house. So you want to watch out for an accidental stockpile.

But the last question that I want to tackle, and then we'll open it up to your questions, as I say, is my favorite part. This is a question that comes up all the time. And this is the question when someone asks, I am the neat one. This is the messy one. How do I make the messy one become neater? And the sad fact about everything related to happiness and all related subjects is the only person that we can change is ourselves. It is very tempting to think, I would be happier if this person would behave properly and have a long list of demands. But unfortunately, we don't get the handout homework like that. The only person that we can change is ourselves. But the fact is, when I change, a relationship changes. And when I change, the atmosphere of my surroundings change. And so often, we can bring about larger change by changing ourselves.

And so to set the stage for my answer to this question, and to prepare your minds for why I think it's right, I want to tell the story of Mike. So Mike is a guy I have known for many, many years. I know his wife a little bit, but I know Mike much better. Mike and his wife both live in New York City. They live in a big house on the suburbs. They have two children aged six and three. So they are in the season of stuff. And Mike is the neat one, and his wife is the messy one. So because I am kind of a happiness bully, he, I know, I was asking Mike about this issue, which I know has been sort of like a tension in their relationship for a long time. And he was telling me about it, saying things like, you know, it's like, I'm home with the kids all day, and the house is made as a pin. And she's home with the kids all day, and the house is a wreck. That's like, well, you know, I get it. I get it. And it's like, and there are, there are other ways that this comes up for you. He said, I give you a perfect example. Often there are these household administrative tasks that she wants me to do. And, you know, the other day I came home from work, and she wanted me to do it. So I sat down, down on the kitchen table to to start. And it was just so messy in there that I had to spend the next 45 minutes getting everything picked up before I could sit down again. And then when I was done, I didn't feel like doing it. And then she was really annoyed with me because I didn't do this task that was important to her. And I said, okay, well, were you at the kitchen table because it's important to you to be in the thick of things? You know, some people just like to be in the middle of everything. He said, no, it, that's not really it for me. So I said, here's the thing, Mike. Do you think that you could find a desk or some corner of a room where you could just arrange things the way you like them? Where you could create the outer order that you need to focus so you could sit down and do this task that everybody would agree to leave it alone? So it's always there when you need to go to it, and it'll be just the way you want it. And he looked at me kind of puzzled. And he said, well, I have an office. That's like, okay, Mike, why don't you use the office? And he said, because it's too messy. So he saw where I was going with this pretty quick. But actually, is quite neat. And as we were starting to talk about it, you could feel him getting excited and like he was getting really revved up to do it. And indeed, that this was a Friday morning when I saw him. That weekend, he sent me a before and after video of his office. He spent five hours cleaning out his office. He got up three huge bags of stuff. He moved things all around his house. He moved in a chair there so it was more like how he liked to sit and work on his laptop. And it was great. So I was talking to him about it the next week. And I was like, how's it going with the office? And he said, it's not exactly where I wanted to get stopped. Like another 10% to go. But it's great. I couldn't resist, of course. I was like, what's the rest? You know, what's the rest? That's the ten percent. And he said, well, my winter coat is on the floor a lot. You know, I just, it's just thrown on the floor. And I said, well, why is your winter coat thrown on the floor? So why don't you just use the coat closet by the front door? He said, because it's full of all my wife's clothes. And so I'm supposed to hang up my coat in the bedroom closet on the second floor because there's no room for my clothes down there. Okay, you know, it sounds like, how big is the closet? He said, it was about that big. Not that big. And I was like, well, his wife really does like clothes. That's not a very big closet. I could kind of see why it's crowded. So I was talking about, I said, well, the thing is, Mike, I really do think it's pretty unrealistic to think that someone is gonna hang up their daily coat. But you probably putting it on and off several times a day, putting it away in a second-floor bedroom closet. That doesn't seem to me very realistic. But I can also see why your wife is using the the main coat closet because it doesn't seem like that's very big. So I said, so here's the thing, Mike. Do you think you could put a hook in the garage? Because I think a hook in the garage, it's not ideal, but it's so much more convenient if you're trying to go out to your car, you're going to walk in the neighborhood. It'll just be so much closer to where you need it. I think you would have a better, easier time of putting it away. And then you wouldn't be throwing it on the floor of your office. And he looked at me kind of puzzled. And he said, well, we have a mudroom. And I said, well, Mike, why don't you hang up your coat in the mudroom? And he said, because it's too messy.

So what is the lesson of Mike? Clear your own clutter. Create your own outer order. Create your own outer order relentlessly and searchingly and honestly. Go through your own things, the things that you have control over, and get rid of everything that you don't need, use, or love. And many things happen when you do that. First of all, you may see new opportunities. Like you can use your office, you can use your mudroom. And so certain problems are just solved. And sometimes, not always, but sometimes the messy ones get kind of swept up in this. And they will kind of go along because a lot of people, even if they are messy, would like to have more outer order. Not all of them, but some of them. And also, it's true that when we have more outer order in our own space with the things that belong to us, we start to have more tolerance for other people's mess. And also our mess also often seems different to us than other people's mess. I mean, this is like, you know, me saying, yes, you know, I've been working on this scrapbook project in the dining room table for three months and my stuff is everywhere. But you left crumbs on the kitchen counter and we can't live like that. You know, maybe my mess is adding to the overall visual clutter of an environment, but I kind of take my, I kind of give myself a pass. I just think about your mess. If I get rid of my mess, I think I'm gonna feel different about your mess. Because when we create outer order in what we can control ourselves, we just feel differently. Now, you could say that there are two kinds of mess that Mike was facing. One was his office, which was totally within his own control. But one was family clutter that was that was shared. But that's a shared environment. And I think with the shared environment, if you're the neat one, you kind of have to admit that you're gonna be the one that's gonna be like, hey team, why don't we tackle the mudroom today? Because then eventually one's never gonna think about that. But it is true that if you do what you can with what is within the ambit of your control, you feel very differently about your environment and about your surroundings. And you can have a lot more tolerance for people who maybe have a different point of view.

So the last thing I want to say, and then we'll open it up for your questions, is I really do think that for most people, it is worth the time and the energy to think to think about how to create more outer order. Because I truly do believe that for many of us, it really can help us lead the happier, healthier, more productive, and more creative lives we yearn for. So thank you. So come up to the mics. We can talk about the four tendencies. We can talk about outer order, of course, children's literature, whatever you want. All right. If you get a gold star for asking the first question because Kelly likes to ask the first question. Good evening. Thank you. So I was wondering if you can come over to my house. And it feels like he's gonna require 80 percent of the work. I've done the 21-day challenge. I've downsized a year ago. It's really not that much left. I also have a cleaning lady coming once a week. So I give her things that she helps take things to write for donation. And I was, and I just kind of feel I don't have enough energy for the last 20%. And I was wondering for the last, how much percent? 20%. What sounds like you've done an amazing job so far. So give yourself credit for having done the bulk of it. And maybe think about what it is about the last thing. Is it emotions? Is it going through papers? Is it that there's a lot of decision-making? And think also about what would make it easier. First, one thing that's interesting is that there are some people who say that when you do this, you should really be by yourself so that you can concentrate and not be distracted. And then also, sometimes people will encourage you to hang on to things. But for many people, it's very helpful to have a companion. Just somebody who's there partly as like an accountability partner, like we're gonna do this because I'm here for three hours. So what are we gonna do? And then also, they can help you sort of talk through if you get stuck on something. And a lot of times, it's more fun. There's a companion. So maybe think about what could be. Or maybe you want to set yourself fun goals. Like, I'm gonna do as much as I possibly can in a half an hour. Or I'm gonna try to beat my record time. Or listen to fun music. You know, try to make it more fun. But just keep going because that last 20% is often the hardest. But then it's the most ecstatic when you really get to that point. So really think about that too. How great you're gonna feel when it's done. So good luck. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. So I have, I have a different problem with the clothes. I'm 69 years old. I have all the clothes I've ever, give or take, yeah. I have not changed size. It's defended, but it's basically the same. I can fit the same clothes. Yes. So and the problem is that I will not use something for 15 years, and then suddenly there's a new use for it, and it becomes the centerpiece of this year's collection. And so I have a great deal of difficulty using that sort of, it doesn't do anything for me right now because you have a 30-year horizon reincarnation. Yes. And these things are really working. They really are working because often I think people fantasize that it will work. I actually, you, you actually do. You know, I'm not saying I use all of them. No, no, no. I get it. Random. 20%. We'll see. This is the thing. This is why clutter clearing is a little bit like casino gambling, okay? Because if you hang on to everything, there will be a day when somebody's like, what we need is a cord to a fax machine manufactured in 1985. And you're like, hang on. And you go get it. And you feel amazing. And so everything in your house is for that hit. You know, you're like, I cannot risk not getting my hit. So I think I would say, take a gamble. Take a gamble. I mean, it's just like, how many times does that happen? Maybe ten times. It's happened. It's happened. I should be wearing that pantsuit from 1970 to right now. Right. Right. Right. It could be called bottom. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I guess that's all. It's all. It's every. I would not say that you should or you shouldn't. It's whatever works for you. How much stuff is it? If you're like violets, it's a lot. Can you pick out your favorite things? Thoroughly. There are things and you're like, even if this came back in fashion, I wouldn't even want to wear it. Like, I don't like it. It was sprat. See the zipper. It's weird. I don't know. I've never really liked heel. Whatever it is. And just try to get it down to the things you think are really worth keeping. To me, that feels very overwhelming to manage that. But if you really find it satisfying way to go. Okay. Okay. Good. All right. Good. Excellent. Interesting problem. Yes. Hi. Though I'm a questioner. I'm actually described in the questioner section of the four tendencies. Like, literally, it's you. Yeah. Oh, I am very messy. And I really am not convinced that outer order matters. And I've read the intro. I hear you. So what questioners often say, why should I make my bed every morning? I just unmake it every night. That is not an efficient use of anybody's time. I'm like, you got me. Yeah. So I just, you know, I read your intro, which is the part that looks like it has the most on what matters. And so I'm just wondering if you can do anything else to convince me. You know, here's, here's the interesting thing. There is actually a lot of research. But I don't really cite that research because I don't really believe the research. Because the research is often trying to tell you the best way. This is the best way. This is the most efficient way. You're gonna cut down on your blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, it's just in my, in my observation, there just aren't generalizations like that. Like even if it's on balance, it's like they did, they did a study of Stanford undergraduates eating marshmallows. It turns out they eat marshmallows faster in a messy environment. It's like, but what about you? What would you do? Because people are really, really wildly different. And what, what stimulates their creativity? What makes them feel productive? I mean, it's sort of like, is it better to work in the morning or at night? It doesn't really matter what's best because if you're a night person, it doesn't mean it's like you got to, you know, you're just dead in the morning. You've meant to do. So, so, so I'm not going to throw a lot of statistics at you because I sort of feel like those aren't very helpful on an individual basis, even if they're interesting kind of on a wide basis. But I would say, well, what about for you? Like, do you find that you can find things more easily? You can put things away more easily? You have less decision fatigue, which is something that's very often a particular problem for questioners because they can have analysis paralysis. So to really think about the reasons for you, about your own efficiency and productivity, and like mental noise. But if you truly feel like there's no benefit to you, I don't think there's any reason to do it. There's, if there's no purpose to it, other than it's helpful to you. Yes. But I appreciate your own skepticism. I'm married to a questioner, so I ever, I'm very familiar with the strengths of that of that tendency. Yes. Hi, Miss Rubin. I'm an overly sentimental hoarder. Yes. Probably not an uncommon thing. Every school assignment, every art project from children, especially from children of your own children. Every handwritten note. I've got every single handwritten note I probably have ever received. I've been using storage bins. I've been doing things chronologically. I've got a system. But I'm starting to build a little fort for myself, basically a system. So is there a way to stop this or at least cut into it somehow? Yes, absolutely. This is a really, this is one of the biggest challenges, I think, with in creating outer order, which is the sentiment that we attach to things. Now, sometimes when you read advice or suggestions, they're kind of like, you should get rid of all of this. It represents the past. You know, you should move forward, clean and free. And these possessions, if they aren't, they don't matter. This is not the common experience of mankind. Possessions do matter. We use them to remind us of the people and places and activities we love. We use them to protect our identity and to our.

In the environment, something that's handwritten feels special. It's like I deeply shocked many people when I said that I threw away holiday cards like the next day. Some people keep holiday cards forever because it's got someone's picture on it, you know, and like that feels powerful.

So you've got the problem, which is actually not that hard because you're experiencing the downside. If you keep everything, it becomes meaningless. Its value becomes diluted because you can't enjoy box after box after box. There's just too much. It's overwhelming, and therefore it loses all meaning.

And so the thing to do is to really go through and pick out the things that are very, very, very important, that are truly significant. Not the not the handwritten notes that were just the perfect tree things, but like things that are truly meaningful. And I think what's helpful when you're trying to release all these other things is to say, if I have a few things that are truly precious, then I will enjoy them. I can go through them, I can look at them, I could frame them on the wall, I could make a little book. And you could take pictures of the other things if you wanted to have some kind of memento. I'm a huge fan of taking pictures of things that you want to remember, but you will actually find that they will be actually much more valuable for the reason of holding your sentiment.

You can also use this with furniture. So like with my grandfather, I could have taken when my grandfather died, I could have had his roll-top desk, I could have had his big chair, I could have had his grandfather clock, he collected clocks, or I could have had his pocket watch because he was an engineer on the Union Pacific Railroad and his pocket watch was very, very important. So what did I choose? Chose the pocket watch, right? Because all I needed was a little thing to remind me of my grandfather. I really don't need anything, but I like to have something. But I'll pick the little thing, and then this is something that I can really treasure and value because it's little and it's easy and it's supersaturated because all the meaning is there. Whereas if I had all this stuff, I would just feel like, oh my gosh, what am I gonna do with all this stuff? So try to think of it that way, like really pull out what's most meaningful because then it will hold, it will serve you better in that, in it kind of a carrier of emotion for you because I do think that's really important.

Thank you. Okay, so we have time for four more questions. For okay. I feel like I have to be very consistent in my answering. Okay. All right. So mine's a or Tennessee question and I'm a questioner who leans towards upholder. Okay. And I also have a motto that one's an outlier, choose a trend, three's an issue, three's a reason, issue, okay, or problem. So as my friends and colleagues have been taking the quiz, we're finding that rebels, they are people, they are rebels, but they're finding out when their quiz that they're coming out it's upholder. So but then we do a deeper dive and say, oh no, no, you really are a rebel. So we're wondering why is our, you're experiencing false positives from rebels who come out as our thoughts are they're answering the questions as an ideal self, not the real self. So just have you come across that?

This is fascinating, and I have to say, I have noticed this, and it was very puzzling to me as an upholder. And I will tell you this, no upholder thinks they're a rebel. This is a one-way confusion. No upholder thinks the rebels in upholder. We know they're not. The reason that I believe that rebels test is a polder is because they are so authentic to themselves that they are like, I am meeting outer and inner expectations because I'm doing exactly what I want to do. So they have that kind of that sense of total sort of self-discipline in that kind of the most pure sense. It was it's interesting because one very, very perceptive rebel said to me, because I had said that the motto of the via polder is discipline is my freedom, and I cannot tell you how true I feel that that is for me as an upholder. And the rebel said, but you see, for me as a rebel, freedom is my discipline. And I think there is that connection, and I think that's why sometimes rebels do feel that they are upholder. I will say that when I talk about the percentages, I am not using the two million people who take the quiz online because of selection bias. Yes, questioners, if you've been thinking about selection bias, I know about selection bias. This is a limited group of people who took it in a like a, you know, took it like in a proper thing where it was balanced and, and, you know, across regions and ethnicities and ages and all that sort of thing. So I have noticed that too, and I think it's a certain kind of rebel feels upholder-y, but usually with a little, you see that there, it's coming from a very different place, but it's interesting. It's a, it's a, it's a surprising phenomenon. I've noticed it too. Yes.

Hi, I have a question about implementing the techniques in the new book with the strategy of the clean slate. Gel. So I have I've been a stay-at-home mom for several years and I'm starting a new job in two weeks. Can I, congratulations. Can I implement my plan? I have a big list for my clean slate. Can I implement it before I start the job or do I have to wait?

Oh, no, no, don't wait if you don't want to change happening. No, no, no, no, don't wait if you don't want to. And also, a lot of hipsters that energy or preparation too. So you may want to do it as preparation. It was very interesting. Somebody was I spoke to 70 last night who had cancer, and she was saying that before she went into treatment, she went through a huge clutter clearing thing because she just, she wanted to eliminate any kind of distractions or anything. And I could see how you could do that as a weight, like to prepare for something big. And so maybe you said it was like nesting before having a baby. So she felt how the experience felt her, her. And so maybe you're experiencing something like this, like I want to get everything done ahead of time. So if you feel that urge, never fight it. The right time is always now. But I think you're smart to think about the clean slate with a new job because that is such a valuable opportunity. It's great that you have a plan because I think the problem with the clean slate is sometimes we don't take advantage of it, and then by the time it occurs to us, we've kind of blown our chances. So good luck with the new job and good luck with all the new habits. Excellent.

Okay, so we have two more. Okay. Yes. I'm so happy. I was wondering if you could help me reconcile or maybe others in the audience. I'm a super clutter cleaner at home. Questioner, tips to rebel. I don't know if that has anything to do with it. And then there's work and it's a disaster. It's really usually almost always it's the other way. Well, okay, so in all fairness to me, I run a pediatric therapy practice and I have 29 staff and thousands of children per day with lots of toys. I see everywhere. And I don't know if the outer chaos of working with children all day and the toys and the therapy equipment and everything just shut me down. It just becomes total announce where we're brave or have you found others who it sounds like you have, but in wait, so tell me your tendency again. Questioner, tips to write your questioner who's have trouble and this clutter. What is your role? Like what I'm in charge of all of it. You're in charge of all of it. So maybe it should be someone else's job to put away the toys. You're the only one who cares then. But it sounds like you have the authority to tell someone else to do it. I do. So can I tell them that Gretchen Rubin, tell them Gretchen with the happiness bully says you have to pick up the toys. I think I'm the happiness bully. So now I can say my mentor, happiness bully, gave me permission to bully you. Is that gonna work? You might want to frame it slightly there for a she encouraged me to bring us all together to have a better outcome. See ya. Well, and it's also like, let's think about, but yeah, yeah, yeah, I, but I, yes, I do think it sounds like it's not certainly that I'm different in the other places. The parameters are different. Yeah, yeah, I think so. Good luck. Good luck.

Last question. Gold star to you. This is more of an inner order. Good. I was wondering how do you mechanically implement your to-do list? Like do you have a specific app or is it like handwritten or do you have both? Uh, and then also what is your approach to email? Staying on top of email? Hmm.

Usually that Garron only comes up when people start talking about photos. So what to-do lists? I still do hand a hand. I keep a like a pad of paper and then every couple days, like I recopy everything that's not done. I have a philosophy though, that every to-do list should start with something that can be done in the next five minutes or that's already been done. So I always start with something cross off. So I do it that way. I find I don't like to type on my phone that much, so I don't like to keep them on my phone. So I will always trance transfer it as soon as I can into my written pad. But I know that more and more it seems like people are using all these apps that are for to-do lists and they really like it. As for email, this is something that's really interesting because one thing that I've noticed is that people really do use their email very differently. Like one thing that a lot of people say to do is don't use your email as a to-do list, but I find that's one of the most valuable uses of my email for me. Is I use it like a running thing or like to say, well, this person hasn't gotten back to me. If I deleted it or did something else, so that then I would just have to go retrieve it. So I like leaving it there and I just stay on top of it all the time. But here's a tip. If you're a person like me who wants to send email all the time, like I send emails in the middle of the night, I send them on the weekends, they send them on the holidays, I just like want to get it off my plate. Some people, it turns out, don't like that. So you can use the ladle IV if you like to send the emails when they're on your mind and then the people only get them when you like at 8:30 on Monday morning because so that you can respect people's leisure time if that comes up. I wish I had some fantastic answer for emails, but mine is just like to just constantly try to whittle away at it. I am not a big fan of like stepping away from it. I don't feel like that makes me more relaxed or makes me feel it calms meaning in any way. I die, I get, I feel better just like staying on top of it. But again, I think it's so specific to your work. I mean, like my phone doesn't ring, and a lot of people are very shocked by that because they're like, well, what if there were an emergency? I'm like, I don't know, they just have never had an emergency and I don't like, I don't want to like constantly be like, you know, paranoid that might that I, you know, people are constantly jumping. That's called first alarm, the FAU ex-post alarm, thinking that they heard their phone rings. So so ever, I think we're all so different. But the thing to remember, it may, this is a good thing the end on is these, this technology, all these, all these tools, they are goo, a great servant, but they are a bad master. And what we need to do is to really say, what do I want my notifications to look like? And how many apps do I want on my phone? And how do I want to manage my email? And so to take control of it rather than just defaulting and whatever the automatic settings are or whatever you just do without thinking because a lot of times we can set things up in a way that suits us better, but we have to step back and think about it a little bit because it is, it is very overwhelming and can really lead to a lot of mental clutter. So thank you so much. It's been so much fun to talk you. You.