Transcription
Now, in Chinese culture, ritual is important. When China was unified 2,000 years ago, the first emperor ruled by law. It was so tough. People were killed, tortured, and when he died, his son could not hold the empire together. You're too tough.
In Croatia, Mr. Georgio shares insights from his distinguished career in politics, diplomacy, the military, and international business. He reflects on the challenges and opportunities facing small states in today's shifting global order, offering valuable perspectives on diplomacy, geopolitics, and leadership. Let's take a look.
Uh, a question. Uh, when I tell people I'm the Australian ambassador, one of the common reactions is, "Oh, it's so far away." And, and in, in a sense, it is. Uh, and so part of my job here is to say why my part of the world is important to Croatia. So I just want to enlist your voice, if I could. Why is Singapore? Why is Southeast Asia? Why is, uh, the Indopacific important to Croatia?
When we look at Asia, we see three big realities. There's China, which has been most of its history a self-sufficient civilization. The people are homogeneous. So when they are organized, they always had the biggest internal market in the world, and the Chinese, if the rest of the world were to disappear, China can continue because it's big enough. Then there's the reality of India, which is noisy, confusing, but which is spiritual, always invaded, never invading, or hardly invading. It will become the world's second biggest economy because of large numbers. Then there's Southeast Asia in between, and Southeast Asia is half Muslim, and Islam will be a growing theme in world history because by 2050, and many of you will be in your prime then, by 2050, half the world's babies will be Muslim, more or less. Half the world's babies, which means in whatever you do, you have to understand Islam. It's so easy to say that Islam is a problem, that Islam is this and that. The first thing is not to judge, but to understand it in itself, in its history, in its achievements, in its strengths and weaknesses. In Southeast Asia, we are Buddhists, we are Christian, we are Hindu, we are Muslim, and we live with that. And because we have a sense of all the other big powers, I describe it as a place where the mandalas, the aura of China, of India, of the West, overlap to different intensities in each of the 10 countries. When I was trade minister and foreign minister, I worked to make Australia a deep partner of ASEAN. Geographically, it's at the tail end of a great archipelago. Its past was Western, but its future is Asian. I never miss a single meeting of the Asia Australia Institute convened by Steve Fitzgerald and Gareth Evans because I believe in this passionately. But Australia oscillates between being a member of ASEAN and being the 51st state of the US. It kind of swings back and forth. But I believe the pendulum, in, in the end, will swing closer towards Asia. And from that perspective, ASEAN and Australia, which means that that whole string of peninsulas and archipelago leading all the way to Antarctica, this will be a very important region in the world, which threatens nobody but which incorporates everybody, and therefore, in some way, shining a light into the future. That's how I would describe our joint destiny.
Maybe one, one question for me, and then again back to the audience. But recently, a couple of, well, it was just very recent, maybe last week, there was a big parade in Beijing on the occasion of the 80th year of the end of the, uh, Sino-Japanese war. Uh, from Europe, I think only a couple of leaders were present there, President VuÄiÄ of Serbia and Fico from, uh, Slovakia. Uh, it seemed, what, what is your, I mean, how do you read that event? What was the message behind, behind the, the so meticulously planned and executed parade?
Now, in Chinese culture, ritual is important. When China was unified 2,000 years ago, the first emperor ruled by law. It was so tough. People were killed, tortured, and when he died, his son could not hold the empire together. It was too tough. So the, the next dynasty, the Han dynasty, which was contemporaneous with Rome, the republic and the, and the empire, they, they adopted protocol, ritual, li, as a basis of organizing large numbers, how you deal, deal with one another, the titles, positioning. Today, if you go to China, before an official photograph, you don't just stand where you wish, you stand where you're supposed to stand because that photograph will be studied by hundreds of millions of people as to who is standing where and what is its position. This is how China has been governed. So big parades are part of the way China governs a vast real. Chinese soldiers could march with such astonishing precision is no indication of fighting ability. When I was in the armed forces, I trained with the US army. I visited Israel many times. The Israelis and Americans can't march for nuts, but they can fight. So there's no guarantee that because the Chinese march well, they can, they can fight. What is interesting is not the ritual, which you must expect in China. What is interesting is in the weapons they were displaying, especially the new ones. And this is a poker game because the Chinese know they're getting stronger. So they don't want the US to miscalculate. So in a poker game, you show some cards. Of course, the stronger cards are hidden. I don't think the Chinese are bluffing. So, I think the stronger cards are hidden in the Pentagon. You must have read the pizza sales went up four, four-fold. Papa John's and Domino's because all those in the, working at the Pentagon were busily watching, counting weapons, looking at who's who and what's what because China was sending a signal. And what is the signal they want to send? "You may have secret weapons. I have secret weapons, but these are the cards I open to you. So think carefully before you push me too hard because you may regret it. I don't want it because it's lose-lose, but think carefully." So that is the true implication. And then the participation of Putin, who's always been a favorite at these Chinese parades. I attended the same parade 10 years ago. I was a member of the Hong Kong delegation as an adviser to the Hong Kong chief executive. You wake up early in the morning, security check. It's so tedious, you are freezing. Then you enter the space hours in advance. The sun was beating mercilessly. But you enjoy the parade. So when I watch it on television this time, say, "Well, it's more or less the same parade." But okay, this is this is China. But what are they telling the Americans? "It's better we don't fight because if we fight, you may not win. I may not win. You'll be lose-lose. The world will lose." That is the real meaning of that parade. And to reinforce it, you have Putin, Kim Jong-un, who who came by train because in this multipolar world, the Western blockade of North Korea and Iran is broken, is broken. Then, a further remove, which most news agencies clip out because they only show you Trump, show you Xi Jinping, Putin, and Xi Jinping. Next was Tokayev from Kazakhstan and Prawo from Indonesia. Why Tokayev and Prawo? Because in 2013, Xi Jinping announced the Belt and Road Initiative. He did it in Astana in August 2013 at Nazarbayev University, and a month later, he did it in Jakarta to the DPR. This Belt and Road is a huge initiative. It's not a plan. It is, it is a phase of history where China's economy will power the development of hundreds of millions of people. And to have them all coming out together was a signal to the G7. "Please do not, in your decision-making, think that you are the sole master of the universe. We are also here." That was the message. Thank you very much.
Uh, do we have a question from the audience? Uh, there's a student over there in the, and then later on we'll go up. Yeah.
And just briefly introduce yourself.
Yeah. Hello. So I'm Luca, a first-year student, and I would like to ask you, how crucial is it for Singapore to balance the ties with major powers, and what risk does the country face if the balance is lost? Thank you.
Thank you, Luca. So, I cited the example of Dubrovnik and Venice. You're a small power. You, you are facing pressure from the US, from Japan, from China, from India, from Europe. So you've got to be skillful, you know, try not to be in a room alone with somebody who's much bigger than you. That's a bit dangerous. So always go to an open space where there are big guys all around. Then it's okay. You can be yourself. So our international diplomacy is based upon inclusiveness and friendship with all the major powers. Now, from time to time, one of them will try to bully you, and then you've got to say, "Okay, you're a big guy, so I move away to where the other big guys are." Then the bully, looking at where you are, then we say, "Okay, I understand." This is how a small country survives. Now, it's easier for us to do this if the region as a whole is united, which is ASEAN, because all the other ASEAN countries, including the biggest, Indonesia, are small compared to the major powers, and they also do not want to be in a room with nobody else but a major power. So in this common fear, we find unity, not a European unity, which is, uh, a complex legal construction. Ours is a loose unity of camaraderie, of common perceptions. You know, in Europe, you vote all the time. In ASEAN, we never vote, but our approach is, we know we are small. We know we're non-threatening. We turn that into a strength by being friendly to everybody, and therefore providing a platform where people feel that they are okay. They are treated equally. So you're Croatian, you come to Singapore, you feel at home. You're American, you come to Singapore, you feel at home. You're Chinese, you come to Singapore, you feel at home. You are Martian, you come to Singapore, I think you still feel at home. This is what we try to be. Thank you very much.
Uh, another question up there in the back. Yes, first in the back, and then Tony, just briefly introduce yourself.
Hi. Are you listening to me?
Yes.
Okay. Uh, I'm Alexi from France, and I, uh, had a question for you. Uh, have you noticed any, like, differences in terms of, uh, international relations, um, about, like, trade, since COVID? Like, have you seen or observed any deterioration of international relations since COVID, um, due to the competition of the reborn, reborning from COVID? Thank you. Is it clear?
Yes. The, the ice started to crack with the end of the Cold War, and it's still cracking. COVID saw the ice cracking much more quickly, and in some ways, President Trump is putting a blowtorch to the ice to melt it more quickly, fast-forwarding the future. But the general trend, the ice cracking into a world which is multipolar, that is like climate. It is almost a given. But trying to predict the weather day by day, week by week, month by month, requires an attention to detail and careful tactical movements. Yeah.
Thank you very much. Another question over there, Tony.
Thank you. Uh, my name is Antonio. I'm from Croatia. Uh, first, I would like to thank you for being here today because it's a real pleasure to listen to you speaking. And, uh, I was not planning to have a question, but the opportunity is too good to miss it today. So, there's a very famous book called "Why Nations Fail" by James Robinson. I'm not sure if you know it, but I guess you do. And the point of the book is that the main thing that makes nations fail or rise is the institutions, which can be inclusive or exclusive. And, um, the author gives many good examples of South and North Korea, and also the Spanish colonies in Latin America. And today, you mentioned a couple of times China. Um, one of the biggest chapters in the book is about China, where the author explains that although the economy is inclusive, and we have seen the growth over the last 50 years in China, because of its exclusive institutions, they predict that in the long term, that China will not see, let's say, the status that the US has today in the world. What are your thoughts on that?
Thank you. That's an excellent question. Governance is a complex business. It's part of what some philosophers, uh, describe as what is justice? Why do we have civilization? If we are, if you are alone on an island, or Robinson Crusoe, this, it's not possible to live. Everything requires a division of labor. If you look at it from an accounting viewpoint, on the left-hand side is assets. That's a division of labor. You apply capital, land, labor, technology, people work together, you create a bigger pie. The right-hand side is how you divide up the pie. Who gets what? Who holds the equity? Who holds the debentures? Who holds the, whatever, you know, inherent in the right-hand side is a sense of justice. Why should you get more than me? When we work together to bake the pie. Oh, because I'm clever. No, I'm because I have more capital. Yes. But does it mean that you should have this share? You imagine if the billionaires in the world, the, the masters of the universe, people like, uh, Bezos and Zuckerberg and all these big billionaires, if this were in the village, and this was an income inequality within the village, I think the knives will be out because it is not fair. So in a community, how much should the king get? How much should the peasant get? It depends on what is the historical sense of justice between husband and wife, between ministers and citizens, between priests and laity, who should get what? So a society where the distribution is in accord with tradition and the sense of justice, then people say, "Yes, this is fair. I'm happy. I'm happy, therefore we cooperate, therefore the pie grows bigger." But if many of us are not happy, they say, "Forget it, I'm leaving the kitchen," then the pie shrinks. In other words, what is right for society depends a lot on its history, its culture, its value system. If the value system tells you that things should be shared in a certain way, but in reality, you don't, then there's tension. The problem with governance, to reduce it to a struggle between autocracy and democracy, to me, is childish because democracies can be captured by vested interests, the voting system manipulated, and the income inequality getting worse. In the US, the Supreme Court has ruled that there's no limit to Super PAC funding, which means that it's $1,1 vote for election campaigning. Is that fair? If you own the main media, and I don't, but we have one man, one vote. Is that fair? In Australia and Singapore, voting is compulsory. You have to vote. Imagine applying it to America. Is that fair? Well, what is your history? What are the expectations? So when we judge China and see that China is autocratic, yes, it is. Is there democracy in China? There is also democracy because there are levels of governance all the way down. Is China productive sometimes? Is it sometimes unproductive? Many times. And for China, to me, the key is corruption because corruption is rent collection outside the value system. Everyone knows that if you are corrupt, it's wrong, regardless whether a democracy or an autocracy. You cannot be corrupt. If you, as a duke, get land, get gold from the king, it's okay. But if you steal that land or steal that gold, that's wrong. So it's common now in the West to see Xi Jinping as a kind of a bad figure, you know, because he's authoritarian, this and that. But to me, Xi Jinping has done something remarkable. He has reversed the tendency towards corruption in China, and he has been so relentless in tackling corruption that sometimes it seizes up the Chinese administrative machinery. But I think it's more important to tackle corruption because corruption causes people to lose faith in the institutions, that it's not right, it's not fair. Corruption led to the reformation of the Catholic Church. Corruption brings down monarchies. Corruption brings down democracies. So, to me, good governance has as a precondition, corruption, which is a detraction from what is considered fair in the distribution of rewards in the society.
In Singapore, you were quite successful in rooting out corruption. How, I mean, how did you do it?
It's a constant struggle. We have laws. We pay civil servants good salaries, even ministers. But the temptation to take is always there. So you must have laws. And if you get your hand in a cookie jar, well, you get smacked. And if enough hands are smacked, people say, "No, don't, don't, don't fool around." You know, if you go to China today, it's very safe. It's very safe. You leave your, someone did a, a survey, you know, they left a notebook on the table in Paris, in London, in New York, in Rome, in Beijing to see how many minutes before it disappears, right? It's a like a big map test. You know, in China, it gave up. [laughter] It's not disappearing. Now, if you're cynical, you say, "Yes, it's because there are so many cameras around. No one dares to steal." That's true. But it's also because after a while, people said, "Look, this is the way to behave." The state of public toilets is always interesting. It's very difficult to find a dirty toilet in Japan because in the toilets, there are no cameras, right? So it's between you and the toilet bowl. What is a value system? If you see something which you can put right, do you make it worse, or you put it right? For the Japanese, it's internally driven. They feel a conscience. But in many places, no one is looking, who cares? To me, that is one indicator of the quality of a society, of the quality of the social contract.
So look at the toilets next time you think about the country. There's one question over there. Yeah. Uh, Greek colleague.
Tony. Okay, quick question.
And we'll take a few, and then George will answer.
So, I'm Tony. I'm a fourth-year student, and I just wanted to ask you, do you think that the Croatian government can replicate the success that the Singaporean, um, Housing Development Board had with providing its citizens with, like, affordable housing? And, like, if I'm not mistaken, 80% of Singaporeans are like homeowners. They own their own homes and apartments.
This is a very good question, actually, and this is not just relevant for Croatia but the whole of the European Union at the time. You probably saw that the EU now has, I think, uh, very much in focus of this new commission is the, the housing issue, that is, uh, not present only in Croatia but across the board in European countries. So, thank you for the question. Well, uh, there is no secret formula for public housing, and Singapore's public housing structure is, is, is, is easily codified and reduced into a textbook.
Open source.
Is open source, and we use it as a form of diplomacy to help other people and gain some goodwill for ourselves. So every city in China has studied the public housing system in Singapore, and increasingly India too. It is never a problem of engineering and organization. It's always a problem of politics, and the politics in every country is different. So you ask me about the housing problem in Croatia. I don't understand enough about the policies of, of Croatia to give you an answer. But if Croatians want to come to Singapore to study a public housing program, to study where we've done right, where we've gone wrong, you're welcome.
Thank you very much. Yes. Uh, ME student from Greece. Just briefly introduce yourself. Nice shirt, by the way.
It's a great university, great shirt. Uh, thank you, uh, first of all, to, uh, to have you here. Uh, my name is Mihalis. I come from, uh, Greece, and I will, um, address you as, I guess, a proponent of political pragmatism. And the question is about political pragmatism, as it, I would say, it requires a sacrifice to break, uh, sometimes idealistic standards, to take unpopular, um, decisions, and to have the orientation towards the long-term game with short-term, uh, sacrifices. In democracies, like that we have in Europe, where, um, politicians have a short-term orientation towards getting reelected, how can these, uh, decisions be properly communicated and, uh, justified towards the people so that more democracies can go towards this kind of, uh, orientation, long-term orientation? Thank you.
Thank you very much. In the, in the Greek city-states where democracy started, they knew one another and they cared for one another and they fought to help each other. Good democracies must have that direct nexus, that we all feel that we are part of one community. In the same way, when we read "The Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith, and we're celebrating a big anniversary next year, the market works well when you have a sense of community. If you don't have a sense of community, then a liberal democracy, a free market is a way of playing a game to get more for yourself. And in a society which has lost a sense of community, whether it's because of politics or because of massive immigration, where people are only interested in themselves, their families, and their friends, then I think democracy breaks down. So for a long time, the Scandinavians, the democracies were direct, it worked well. Till today, in Switzerland, where democracy is at a canton level, there's a strong sense of community. And it doesn't mean in the democracy that you don't think long-term. If you have a sense of community, you will think long-term. But if you don't have a sense of community, then you just grab what you can see. So my answer to your question is, look at a society and has it still got a strong sense of community? I think in Croatia, you have, and therefore it should work well for you. But in many countries now, it's just a game.
Thank you. Uh, okay, first, [clears throat] the lady, and then we'll go there. Yes.
Hi. Uh, I'm Holland. I'm coming from Mongolia. Also an exchange student here. Um, and
Not an exchange student.
ME student. Yeah, there you go. That's different.
Full-time student.
Okay, [clears throat] cool. Um,
Full-time student.
I'm also interested in, I think, like, seeing it from more of a business perspective, right? Especially, I feel like a lot of the talks are more like political or like policy-related, but then when you look at, like, smaller, you know, like structure like a business, it's like, how do I actually navigate these things such as the global realignment of powers when you're a business and you can't really, like, you know, influence the government? What do, especially like you, being, you know, former trade minister, like, what is your advice on that?
If you're a company, you have to be aware of the weather and the climate, otherwise you will not make the right decisions. You can't change the weather, you can't change the climate, but you must be aware of geopolitical trends. If you're investing in Croatia, you ask yourself, what will Croatia be 10 years from now? Yeah, it's stable. The politics may be interesting, but it's basically stable. So I will make a long-term investment. 200 kilometers away, a similar opportunity arises in Bosnia. You say, 10 years from now, what will Bosnia be? Maybe not so simple. So I better not make 10-year decisions. So if you're entering a geologically active part of the world where the ground shakes and earthquakes are either big or small, then you, you should take smaller steps and build smaller structures and structures which can flex. But if you're on bedrock, they say, "Okay, I'll build a 30-year structure, 100-year structure." See, and in any business, you must be aware of the geo, geology, which is geopolitical conditions. Is there going to be stability? Then you make your assessment. It may be that even though it's geologically active, there's such a wonderful opportunity, I go in, I make a deal, I make my pile. The earthquake can take place tomorrow, I'm safe home, it's okay. That's good luck. But be careful about making long-term investments in such a situation.
Thank you. There's a question over. Thank you. Uh, thank you very much for your interesting and thought-provoking, uh, thoughts about management, political decision-making, diplomacy. I'm from the Croatian Ministry on Foreign Affairs, Director for Policy Planning. Not any longer a student, but hopefully, maybe one day again. Um, I was very, uh, struck by your openness talking about prayer as part of your method of your decision-making process, and then you gave an interpretation what prayer would be for you, and you said it's after meeting, listening, discussing, it's calming down and thinking about the best outcome, something like that, you said. So, is prayer for you just an act of reason trying to look for the best outcome, or is it truly a way of trying to listen what God tells you for that moment to do, because that would be the right way of prayer from my Croatian Catholic point of view?
All right. Jesus Christ said that all the commandments can be reduced to a duality: to love God and to love man. And if you love man, you love God. You can't love God without loving man. And if you really love man, in effect, you're loving God. So prayer is a period when we see each other as human beings with legitimate interests, and seeing how we can help each other to achieve a better joint outcome. And invariably, why should I see you as a brother? You look different. You have a different history. I may not like what you do, but are you still a brother? So it's a struggle. I'm not saying it's easy. What I'm saying is that period when we pray, it's always a struggle. Now, say, Russians and Ukraine, as they meet, they talk, they hate each other. Then they, they pause, they relax, they say, "Okay, what is the history? Where's the future? Maybe we can find a way. Maybe today is too difficult. Let's meet in a month's time, and a year's time." Yeah. So that if we don't even make that effort, there's very little hope. So it's important when negotiators meet to prepare the ground, you know, where you talk about periods when they worked together, when they helped each other, the things they love in common, the things which bind them. Yes, there are differences, but there's always a start, you know, between, uh, India and China, whenever they meet, they talk about how India gave Buddhism to China. When Xi Jinping first visited Modi in India, they went to Gujarat, to Ahmedabad, because from there, a Gujarati Buddhist monk in the fifth century went to China. And when Xi Jinping visited, hosted Modi, he was in Xi'an, where the great monk Xuanzang, after spending more than 10 years in India, went back and was given a temple by the emperor to translate the sutras. Xi Jinping hosted Modi there, and later on, they met again in South India, where there's a seaside temple called Mahabalipuram, and on the temple frieze, hundreds of Indian deities, but in the middle, one with a Chinese face, and they believe that in the fourth or fifth century, there was a Chinese monk who went to India, who went to Kanchipuram, and that was probably that person. So before they talk about the border and all the unhappiness, all the unhappinesses, they talk about how in history they've learned from one another. And that calms you down, and you begin to think more positively about each other. That's always worth doing. Try not to meet cold. Begin with dinner. Begin with common friends, and then layer by layer, build up a basis for better negotiations.
Thank you. One question over there. Mr. George, very pleased to meet you. My name is Alicia Leners. I'm from Brazil. I would like to ask you how do you see the recent uprising of BRICS and the tentative of de-dollarization of the world, and how do you think the world will respond to that? Thank you.
Thank you very much. You know, in 2008, when you had the GFC, the Global Financial Crisis, the G7 countries did not have the ability to pull the world out from a deep hole. So George Bush convened the first summit. The second summit in 2009 in London, Gordon Brown chaired it, and the 20 countries agreed to coordinate fiscal and monetary policy. China, uh, introduced a budget of 4 trillion renminbi to generate global demand. He created another distortion in the Chinese economy, where it helped to get the world out from that crisis. With the Ukraine war, the G, the G20 has broken down. It's no longer effective, and the G7, for the Western countries, has recovered its old primacy. But there's a danger that compared to 2008, the G7 today is even a smaller share of the global economy than at that time. And if the world goes into another hole, there's no way the G7 can get us out of it. It requires coordination with many more countries. BRICS is not to counter the G7 because you still need the G7. BRICS is a way, a deterrent to the G7, not to ignore other countries, is to keep the G7 honest. Russia may want the G7 to be anti-West because of what it's facing. But neither China nor India nor Brazil nor South Africa want it to be an anti-Western organization. For this reason, till today, the G7 has not even got a secretariat. It only has a steering committee because slowly, slowly, let's play it and see how the G7 reacts. If the G7 doesn't learn, then you'll begin to have a small secretariat. Then you'll begin to develop legs and wings. Then it'll be a different world. But for the time being, it is to keep the G7 honest. And on the dollar, de-dollarization of the dollar issue, do you have a view?
Well, from a climatic viewpoint, the, the, the exorbitant privilege enjoyed by the US dollar is, is an operation. It cannot continue forever. Um, so the question is when and how. And the weaponization of the dollar and of the financial system, the confiscation of Russian, Maduro's gold being kept in the Bank of England and given to his opponent, and not really, but in name. All this would have convinced wealthy people and governments to say, "Look, be careful about Western financial institutions. The politics may change, and they may take your, your assets." So I see Western action accelerating the decline of the US dollar. But for the time being, it's very important, and many of us need the US dollar. He said the cookie will crumble. When will it crumble? How will it crumble? You don't know, but it will crumble.
Okay. Uh, unfortunately, we're running out of time, so we have time for only one more question from the audience. Anybody, uh, yes, who is, okay, stand up.
Introduce yourself, please.
Good morning. Uh, thank you so much for such an interesting discussion. I'm Adella, and I originally come from New Zealand. And in fact, I see many synergies between Singapore and New Zealand about our diversity and, in fact, about our innovation. So I wanted to ask a question, I guess, about our place in time right now, where we are, um, we're at Zagreb School of Economics, a hub for innovation. And I guess, what do you think there is to learn about both Singapore and countries like New Zealand, which are such fertile breeding grounds for emerging technologies across food and security, agriculture, um, governance, etcetera. What do you think there is to learn, um, in terms of innovation from our nations?
We, we like each other. We're good [laughter] friends. New Zealand and Singapore. And New Zealand was the first free trade agreement I negotiated as a trade minister. Um, kindred spirits. And sometimes I think that there should be a condominium of small countries in the world who don't judge others, who don't try to dominate others, but who believe in working for mutual benefit. But unfortunately, we are a bit far apart geographically. So communication is not always the easiest. But nevertheless, on many issues, New Zealand and Singapore, in the UN and other international forums, we're on the same side, and there is a very easy, deep, uh, relationship, and we are learning from each other. We wish we had your natural beauty and the open space and the blue skies, um, and you wish you had a better location. So, so I'm sure we can help each other. Yeah. And if we don't spend time trying to judge each other, I think there's almost no limit to the ways in which we can work together for mutual benefit.
And on that wonderful note, I really want to, first of all, I want to thank all of you for joining us here today, taking the time out of your busy days to be with us. I want to extend a big thank you to George for visiting again the Zagreb School of Economics and Management for sharing your super interesting insights. I hope it was interesting. I, I hope it was helpful. So, let's give a warm, uh, welcome and applause to our dear guest. [applause]
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