Reacting to the Dave Smith/Douglas Murray Joe Rogan Debate

Hello everybody. Uh, hope you're doing well. This was—I'm going to give people a few minutes to show up. Uh, there's a lot there to discuss, uh, of this, of the Rogan episode with, uh, um, Douglas Murray and Dave Smith. I was just looking at my, um, uh, um, YouTube, and it's been two years since I've done, did one of these. And the reason why it's been so long is—one of the reasons I was doing them so much is because how bad New York got toward the end. So like, my friends were leaving; there's no place to go, so I would do all these live streams. And now that I'm in Austin, things are a lot better. So there were other things I were doing, but people really seem to enjoy these; I enjoy them as well, so I will try to do them more now.

There is something I want to talk about at the top of the show, which is—and by the way, I'm such a boomer. No ifs or buts; total boomer. I'm like, how do you put up pictures in videos? I see people doing it all the time. It's like the—and of course, it's the easiest thing possible. But uh, all you have to do is hit present, then you have to pull up an image file, and then you pull up this, and you open it, and it's on the screen. So, um, let me give you guys the link. I'm really, really, really stoked to be doing a show live, and I'm even more excited that my first guest is going to be, uh, Kurt Metzger, um, who you guys know; he's been on the show several times. Just one of the best talkers on earth. Kurt is one of the very few people—who I'm going to put this on the screen for the link—Kurt is one of the very few people—wait, a god dang it—here we go. Kurt is one of the very few people who I would rather sit and talk and listen than add to anything to the conversation. So please go get your tickets. Um, if it goes well, I'll start doing this regularly, and if it doesn't go well, well, then it's not going to go well. So that's that. So I'm excited. Creek and Cave is a great spot; I saw Neil Hamburger there not that long ago. So yeah, I, I'm, I'm—I thought that was really nice of Kurt to agree to be my first, uh, um, guest. We're gonna take this off; let's see how do we—now, now we have to figure out how to remove it. There we go. Look at this; I'm learning. And I could do hide current comment; not too shabby, Michael Malice.

So let's talk a bit about this. Oh, hold on. Thank you for doing this. Okay, let's talk about this. So I want to give you guys a background. Um, I wanna—what is—did you—wait, what's this? Did you ever respond to Jim Go saying you're only friends for the writing of the new right? That makes no sense; that makes no sense. It's not like we stopped being friends when the book came out, as the book came out, um, but I'm not going to trash Jim Go under any circumstances. So, um, God, there's a lot. Okay, okay, okay. Let me talk about why I—my relationship is to these three guys who were on the show. So, as that—uh, I want to put the guy's comment up again. So as Fear the Old Blood said, during the lockdowns, me and Dave would do crossover episodes; he'd come on my show, you're welcome; I'd come on his show, Part of the Problem, and we would do this throughout, and it's one of the things I'm proudest of, not in the sense of it was some big accomplishment, but in the sense of a lot of people said, "You guys kept us sane," and it was really fun. Uh, I really enjoyed it. I'm like, if you can help people doing what you do, it's really kind of just icing on the cake. So I look back fondly on those live streams; we really enjoyed it; we got it. It was also funny because at a certain point, there's only so much politics you could talk about. I remember some guy got really upset because I asked Dave what his love languages are, which is how people express affection, and it's like, look, like this is opportunity for people to get to know us. So, you know, that was, uh, um, uh, uh, oh God. Okay, I disagree with Douglas, but I don't think he articul—well, if he doesn't get a solo episode, will you book him and give him space to spell his position without adversarial positioning? Okay, off the top, spoiler alert; Douglas is my guest on next week's show. We recorded it the week before, the day before he was on Rogan. I did challenge him on his positions, uh, not in an aggressive way, but but just the basic questions that you'd expect: "Why should we care about Israel? Isn't this in a part theid state?" You know, blah, just so—so you can watch it, and I, I think he handles himself well. And in fact, spoiler alert—if you could spoil a podcast—the last question I asked him was, "Will you debate Dave Smith?" Not knowing that the next day, uh, he was going to—I loved your recent—oh my god, Roseanne. Yeah, one of the greatest things in my life is being friends with Roseanne. Okay, uh, wait, wait, wait. Cat got love to cat; that's not my quote. I stole that quote from Kurt Schlichter; that is Kurt Schlichter's quote. How about it? Because Kurt—some people tweeted him, and Kurt will reply—I, I hear your proposal; here's my counter proposal: I do what I want all the time; you cry more.

Okay, so let's talk a bit about this, why I'm in a position to discuss, uh, this episode. David, so Dave and I go back; we're boys for, for a long time now. Great, uh, whatchamacallit, Rogan. I've been on several times; I don't want to mention how many—it's nine. Um, Dave should write a book called The Ramblings of an Uncredential Jewish Comedian. Have to write a book; alleged. I'm going to talk about this because this is really driving me crazy; like this is really driving me crazy, um, and I have some tweets I'm going to put up on the screen that address this preemptively that I've been talking about. Let's—and Doug, so Joe and I are, are, are friends. I guess we're just friends; we text, um, and Douglas I've, um, only—I had him on my show once when I was on Gas Digital, and then I had him on, um, again, um, what do you call it, um, this past week, and then we had dinner. So I know him the least. Okay, here's a bash about Dave. So let's talk about, um, the beginning of the episode. So when I—Jesus Christ. Okay, I don't know what to do because of this. I, I feel like it's bad to not address the super chats, but I also want to get to my point. So I, I literally don't know what to do. I'm sorry, guys. Um, oh, this is wonder—well, this is so wonderful. Your shows with Dave helped me when I was in lockdown and led me to follow Dave and Tom Woods; that partially led to my anti-war position. I guess you want me to apologize if—if you're going to Tom Woods, um, did you hear Ron Paul sold out to big pharma? He's endorsed by Sudafed, to quote Tom Woods. I'm about to commit an atrocity. Okay, let's talk about, um—oh my god, I'm not sure that was actually Murray; I think it means Sam Harrison, Douglas Mask. Okay, let's talk about the beginning of the episode. Let me, let me, let me take a back, a back step, and I'm—what I'm going to try to do is steelman everyone's position, and there's a tweet of mine, um, I'm going to put up on the screen that I think is very germane at this moment. Let me find the tweet, uh, is it this tweet? What did I just put up? I've gone full boomer. Oh, this is it. Okay, so I removed this. Yes, people are far more interested in what they heard than in what you said. So let's talk about this regarding Rogan. Rogan, during COVID, had went to his doctor; his doctor gave him a list of medications to take. Rogan goes on his Instagram live, I think it was; he makes a little video; he goes, "Hey, I had COVID; went to my doctor; he gave me this list of, um, medications, blah, blah, blah; I forgive, blah, blah, blah, blah, and now I'm better; here you go." And did you hear that he said horse paste? Every—you heard it; he said—he said—you said horse paste? The whole internet—did you? He said you should take horse paste. It was—it was so disingenuous and maddening, and I said this to Joe on his show; I said, "If I watch CNN, I would get the impression that," and I—this is exactly how I said—I said, "You put on a trench coat, dressed like Dave Smith, so no one would recognize you, went to Petco, took a tube of horse paste, and was guzzling down in the, in the, in the, um, store." That was the impression you would have gotten, but that's not at all what he said or what happened. Another great example is—if you are, um, into aquariums, as I used to be—I still am—they have something called a UV sterilizer, because a lot of times you'll have pathogens in aquariums, and in the ocean it's fine, right? Because the parasites will drop off. You're in a very small contained tank; you've got the fish; the parasites are dropping off, reproducing; they're latching onto the fish; the fish goes down; it's, it's, it's, it's really a dangerous thing. So what a UV sterilizer does is the water goes through the UV sterilizer; it hits it with ultraviolet light, and all the pathogens are destroyed. And this is a good way to keep the tank clean of, you know, parasites and various viruses and bacteria. I don't know if it works for viruses, but you get the—you get the gist. So when Trump, during COVID, was talking about, oh, you know, maybe you can take the blood and hit it with, you know, some, some steril—some light, that's what he was referring to, or something analogous to that. Oh, did you hear that he said inject yourself with bleach? Well, you heard sterilizer; that means bleach. He—we all heard it. You're tell—and people will tell you to this day that they heard Trump say you should inject yourself with bleach, and you will never, ever, ever, ever be able to dissuade them otherwise. The biggest example, the biggest example of this is, um, very fine people. You guys, I'm sure everyone watching this knows this hoax. I, I don't call—I don't like calling it a hoax, because a hoax is like a, a joke; it's like a, like, oh, I played a hoax; it's, it's like a prank. I call—it's a lie; it's not a hoax. Hoaxes are nice, benign. When, when, uh, the thing at Charlottesville was about taking down the Confederate statues, and Trump said—I think this is verbatim—on this debate, "There are very fine people on both sides," and I'm not speaking about the white nationalists who must be repudiated totally or rejected totally, whatever the negative term was. And everyone's like, "Oh, you heard that he said very fine people, both sides." La, very fine people, very fine people, very fine people, both sides here. And if you play that clip for, for leftists of a certain ilk, they will still not perceive anything to the contrary, and it is so, um, frustrating. So what I like to do, and why I always say I prefer to do discussions rather than debates, is because a—there shouldn't be an incentive to say, "Hey, you know what, that's a good point." I did a debate with Tom Woods about Alexander Hamilton; he kicked my ass, but that was like a fun, frivolous topic that doesn't matter. You know what I mean? Like, everyone can have their opinion about Hamilton for themselves; he's not going to be president or anything like that. And there's so much there to unpack, and he's a very complex figure, so it's a fun, completely frivolous topic. When you're talking about serious things like kids dying and, and, and violence and war, I prefer—let's have a discussion and hash this out, and instead of trying to dunk, uh, and I'm not saying anyone involved in this is trying to do that, but that's my personal preference. Um, in fact—oh, this—your friends in this space have strong opinions and often dislike each other heavily; is this hard for you to navigate on an interpersonal level? It's, it's, it's, it's excruciating; it really drives me crazy; it really, really bothers me when I see people who I know—if I got them in a room, uh, would respect each other—just to be dunking on each other in very vulgar ways. I, it, it really bothers me; it really bothers me a lot, um, especially when the P—people are not in a position to enact policy. Now, if they were a politician, that's very different, right? If you're talking about someone who's actually passing law, legislation, and you know, forcing these things, okay, then we have a different story. But if it's just some [ __ ] with an opinion, like myself, I think that's a very night and day situation. Um, anyway, so I've had Dave on to do this; he—we have discussion with him and Will Chamberlain on Israel on my show; he had one with people like, "Oh, you should debate Constant." He and Constant had a great discussion about Ukraine on my show; I came into that, and I want to quote Dave from the beginning of the, um, Rogan episode, because Rogan's asking about the different types of people who are liberty-minded, and what Dave pointed out correctly, he's like, look, he comes from the Ron Paul school, which is very anti-war, and and that's kind of their big issue, and there's the Rand school, which I'm much more a party of, and I don't care about foreign policy anywhere near as much as Dave does or the Ron Paul people. I don't—I am much more concerned about Washington; I will always be more worried about what's happening in America than what's happening in, you know, Beijing, Pyongyang, uh, Jerusalem, you know, any, any place or, um, uh, Moscow. Now, I'm not going to not care, but it's not going to be as much a priority for me. And then people try to conflate it; be like, well, you can't have one without the other. I think you can, but that's just my, my two cents. Um, and so I came into that Ukraine—people also think this is really kind of a function of having the kind of, um, career that I do, and and my friends do, is that whatever the big issue of the moment is, you have to be informed and have an opinion, and lots of these things I just don't find, uh, compelling or interesting, and I just don't bother. And if I haven't done the homework, I'm not going to run my mouth; I really feel that's important, and I wish more people stuck to it. So what I really liked about the discussion between Constantin and Dave about Ukraine, where I was born, is I came into it like having a very layman's opinion. My answer for all of these things is—what will get to no one dying? That's my only goal, uh, and I really, really bothers me because a lot of people for these issues, and I'm not saying Douglas, I'm not saying Dave, I'm just saying broadly speaking, is it's like an underpants gnomes thing. So the underpants gnomes, from those of you who watch South Park, there were a bunch of gnomes, and they were stealing underwear, and it was—step one, steal the underwear; step two; step three, profit. It's like, okay, what's step two? So they think—there—anyone who claims that there's this simple—they always use the word just—well, Putin just; Israel just. I've never heard anything that is anywhere close to plausible being resolved in one sentence; it, it just, it, it's—and what—and I remember when I was in college, this was in the 90s, when Bill Clinton was, uh, when Bill Clinton was pushing for socialized healthcare, and I was talking to my bioethics teacher; she was in her mid-30s, I would guess at the time, and the big argument for Clinton taking over the entire healthcare industry was that, um, there was rationing, like some people couldn't get healthcare, and that's not fair, right? So she wanted socialized healthcare. I go, "But in this bill that Bill Clinton is pushing, lots of people are not going to—by law—like, if I'm rich, I can't buy more healthcare; it's banned; like they were going to put doctors in prison for this; it was really crazy." You guys can look up the history; Hillary was in charge of it, and she blew it up so badly, so badly, the Republicans took over Congress for the first time in 40 years. And I go, so she's like, "Yep." And I go to the professor, I go, "You're saying rationing is bad, but therefore we need to mandate rationing by law." And she's like, "Yes, everyone needs to have access to healthcare." And when I realized it was such a revelatory thing that she's just using any pretext she wants to get to the conclusion she wants, even if the conclusion doesn't at all address the pretext. So when people have an answer for Ukraine or Israel, my only question is—is this going to result in long-term peace and lack of death and murder for everyone involved? Or at least, if not ban it, minimize it. And if they're like, well, I'm not hearing it—like, that's all I'm interested in. So I—a simple man on this issue, on all these, these issues. Um, so yeah, the other thing that bothers me, broadly speaking, before we get into the debate itself, is people have this—Americans are so propagandized for so long that if there is an issue on the news, an issue on the news, it's a given that the implication—implying—is we have to do something about it. When I did my book on North Korea, dear reader, and I gave talks about it and discussed it, my goal was kind of simple, which was to have, um, uh, um, people stop looking at what's going on to North Korean population as a joke. Now, this was in the context of, uh, um, Team America, uh, this by the South Park guys; Shane from Vice went there, and he presented as kind of a carnival. I don't blame either of them, because it's really—when things are dark, it's sometimes easier to put it over in a humorous way. But I said this all the time when I was doing talking about the issue; I'm like, my only goal is to take that camera, uh, off that clown Kim Jong-il, the dear leader, and move a little bit to see behind him all those bodies. And I was part of the people who—I can't take sole credit obviously—but that has succeeded—succeed—in the sense that when people look at North Korea, they don't think it's a joke; they think this is really horrible and tragic. And I would always get asked, "What should we do?" And I would always say, "I have no idea; I have no idea. There's not even bad options," like—and I went through why. But when we are, as Americans, presented with an issue on the news, it's always like, "Here's a problem; therefore, we got to do something about it," and we—meaning the government—and, uh, this is why—to like Dave's point—a lot of these atrocities in other parts of the world, we never hear about them because there's no possibility that the US is getting involved, so who cares? So it's really a presents a very skewed, um—I, I think even I underestimate how propagandistic the news is, because it's always—"Here's a problem; we have to do something about it," instead of—"Wow, this is a [ __ ] up story; the end."

So let's talk about the beginning with, um, um, Douglas and, and, and Rogan and, and Dave talking about, uh, expertise. And this was really, really, really hard for me to, uh, uh, watch. I'm sure I'm not the only person who find it hard to watch, because it really felt to me like they were talking past each other. And what I'm going to try to do as I break down this stuff is to steelman everyone's position and present it in a way that people can agree with and, and, and make sense. So let's talk about this thing with experts. Um, I'm actually going to have a book coming out next month; it's going to be—you'll see; it's, it's, it'll be very, um, uh, you'll see. Okay, let's talk about this. Okay, uh, I, I've got a tweet about this because I've been talking about experts for quite some time. Let's pull it up. Here we go. Here's this. And now, right—there's this—this is 2024; there's no better marketing slogan for authoritarianism than "Trust the experts." Hold on; it's—we heard it all the time, and that word has become—I have another one. Hold on; let me put it up. Another tweet. Look at me, learning how to use the, um, the screen grab. Here's another one: "A corporate press article citing experts is explicitly a signal of propaganda as an Ed Hardy shirt is a signal of a douchebag." Right? So we do need—everyone's going to freak out; just let me finish the sentence, please. We do need to trust experts in our lives. What we don't do is trust the experts because trusting the experts always was the case that the government decided who the experts were, and if you disagreed with the government position, therefore, by definition, you weren't an expert. And Jay Bhattacharya is a very obvious example. There were lots of people who were doctors who were medical professionals who were basically told by every dimwit with a Twitter account, "You know what you're talking about; they went to medical school; you didn't." So if they had legitimate questions about all the COVID nonsense—if this was a sincere conversation—if we're having an, a big emergency—when you watch these movies like where the asteroids come to the Earth, what happens is—all hands on deck; everyone get in the room; we got to hash this out; this is crazy. You—we need crazy ideas. Everyone who's—I was a business major; people who are business people know this—you have a brainstorming session; you throw [ __ ] out there; see what sticks, right? If 90—you expect 90% of the ideas to be completely stupid, just completely stupid. But if that one idea gets you to a solution or course of action, it's a success. But that's not what they did at all. What they did is—we are going to pick—and this is why authoritarianism always fails—because if you have a free enterprise system where everyone has the opportunity to be a creator or innovator, that is how you allow people to rise to the top and help create solutions that are better for, um, uh, uh, um, everybody. Uh, I double check me on this, but we all heard this story about how in the Gulf of—what is now called the Gulf of—the Gulf of America—there was that oil leak, and it was really far down, and how are we ever going to seal it, and it's going to destroy all life in, in the oil, and I think it was a high school kid or a college kid; I don't remember; please double check. But they figured out how to solve it. That's what you want. If you're going to preemptively—Chernobyl was a great example of trusting the experts, because the guys running it were telling the people who saw the meltdown, "It's not possible; you know what you're talking about; shut the f up," and they were happy to sit on their hands until it got blown up—to no pun intended—like, if we don't take care of this, this is going to, like, destroy Europe. So when you have the experts, that is exactly the time when things get very dangerous. Now let me speak to all—so I think what Douglas was trying to say, and I don't think he's incorrect, and I don't think he or Joe or Dave would—you can speak to this more, okay, that—but that's not—okay, hold on, please; just let me, let me speak, please. I'm sorry; it's not—you're not—that was on me to click on you, so that's—I apologize. Um, Rogan, when he took his ivermectin and all the other things, he was trusting an expert; that was another big lie that was told by CNN. He did not do this; he's not googling Kiwi Farms; he went to his doctor; he trusted his expert. Every one of us, we trust our attorney; we trust our doctor; we don't always trust him completely. You know, my doctor said something that doesn't sound about right; let me get a second opinion. But you're—everyone has certain issues where you're like, "I'm going to defer to the—"

Knowledge and judgment of someone who's more informed and more knowledgeable than me. Now let's talk about this in the context of history. I am not a Churchill person, one way or another. I don't know much about Churchill; I don't find him that interesting, um, but let's talk about something where I can address which is vis-à-vis the white pill. So you see right there, there's Mrs. Thatcher; she's on the cover of the book, and a large or a significant part of the white pill was discussing, uh, Margaret Thatcher. And this is a good question; I think it's a very easy one. Was discussing Margaret Thatcher and her role, her very pivotal role in ending the Cold War. And if you read just my book and you, you took it as your entirety, you would think, "Yeah, she's a little bit quirky; maybe she's a little bit of a nag, but this woman is like the greatest thing ever." But that's not full context. I didn't talk about all the mining towns that got decimated. I didn't talk about her relationship with the IRA. I didn't talk about how her arrogance, uh, got her driven out of Number 10. There were lots of things that were in there that were not, uh, um, did not provide a full picture of her. So to Douglas's point, read Churchill. And I haven't followed, uh, um, uh, what's his, what's modern maid's name? I'm sorry; I'm not getting his name. I haven't followed his what he said about, uh, um, uh, um, uh, Churchill. I think Douglas's point is if you're going to take a piece out of context or or give it a lot of attention, it would be responsible to have someone to put that into broader context.

I'll give it an example that I think everyone listening will agree with, and I'll defend, I'm going to defend Neville Chamberlain. So Neville Chamberlain has a very bad rap. They always bring him up: "Oh my god, Neville Chamberlain didn't fight Hitler's aggressions; he shook hands with Hitler; he handed everything over." Then the phrase, uh, um, "peace in our time," that's from him. So after he shook hands with Hitler, he gets on the balcony, I think it was, whatever it was, and he goes, "Uh, we will now have peace in our time. Now go home and get a nice rest or a good night's sleep," something like that. And of course, you know, it escalated, and World War II ensued. And it's like, "Oh, what an idiot!" And if someone had that perspective, you would say, "Okay, wow, this Neville Chamberlain is a real idiot." What would be responsible to say would be my perspective is to provide the broader context, which is they just got out of World War I. He saw his an entire generation of men killed for absolutely no reason, and the ones who weren't killed came back deformed and mangled. In fact, people might not know this: plastic surgery was invented as a result of World War I because it was the first time you had human beings facing these massive machines in warfare, and they were coming back as monsters. And I think it was George Grosz; I think that's the guy's name, uh, he got in a lot of trouble because in the 20s he was doing these drawings of all these butchered German soldiers and how they looked, and that was supposed to be swept under the rug. So if you're going to have someone say, you know, Neville Chamberlain was a is a coward and a loser and idiot, I think the responsible historical approach would be, "Wait a minute, he's not doing this out of nowhere; he's doing this because of what they just faced." In fact, there's a traveling museum here that I saw in Austin before I moved here, so this must have been seven or eight years ago, called "The Great War," and if it ever comes to your town, I highly encourage you to see it because it, it, it, it broke my heart; it'll break your heart because the they were like kids; they're like 18, and they're in Belgium, these American kids, and they're like, "Hey, Mom, just landed in Belgium, you know, the guys are here; pretty cool, uh, hopefully I'll be back to see you." And he's dead in a week, and they're all dead, and they're all these letters from these kids being like, "Boy, this is an exciting adventure." And they're all dead, and you read it, and it's for nothing, and it's, it's, it just hits you over and over, the depravity and the inhumity of that war. And this is why Gertrude Stein said to the young men in the 20s, "You are a lost generation," because this was this big, "We're going to save, make the world safe for democracy," what do we have to show for it? Like nothing. So I think that was Douglas's point. I don't, Daryl Cooper is the guy's name, I'm sorry. So I, I don't know what, what Daryl said about, I know there's that one sentence; I'm not going to fixate on that one sentence, but I think his point is if you're going to, and I'm not saying Daryl's doing this, please just calm down. I think what Douglas is trying to say is that if you're going to re, um, uh, um, rewrite or retell, I don't say rewrite, retell the World War II narrative, it's important, which has very much resonance today, far more than the Great War; it's important to have someone there to provide a broader context. So if Douglas had just said, instead of the word "expert," which we all agree is horrific, if he had just said, "It would be better if you had more people on who knew what they were talking about," uh, then I don't think any of the three of them would disagree. So I really think his fixation on that word was a huge mistake. Um, I think people are clowning him very heavily for it, but I think what he is attempting to say, and this is on him if he's being inarticulate, I think what he's attempting to say is something that is broadly speaking, uh, not controversial in the slightest.

Okay, now, um, it was Murray smug; pissed people off. Here's the other point about that, so I'll, I'll, if I, I was on, um, if I'm trying to, if I wrote a book, the CNN and a place like that do this all the time. There are people who wrote like vaguely right-of-center books, and they would only have them on if there was like a college professor to debate them; they wouldn't let the message go out unchallenged. So for me, if I am writing, but then I'm not writing a book about something as contentious as as Israel, what's going on in Gaza, so that, that's a very different story. There was a show that not that long ago wanted to have me on to debate North Korea, and I said, "No, because, and again, North Korea is not the same obviously as Israel and Gaza, because I'm like, if you're going to have someone who's defending North Korea, North Korea has every excuse in the book for, you know, the US made us do it; it's they, it's their fault we have camps. I'm, I'm not interested in engaging with someone like that," uh, which is which is not all the equivalent of David Douglas, uh, let's, let's be clear, as as well. Right, a great point: fog of war; you look back and you see the man; you don't see the fog.

Okay, so the other thing that I think Douglas did very incorrectly, and I'm going to put up now, I'm so proud of myself that I know how to put up these tweets, this is a tweet I had, and this is I think a big misstep on his part. I said here, the, the, the quote tweet was gone; this is 2022. "Weird" is a reaction when they haven't received instructions from a cathedral about how to integrate something in their ongoing narrative. So "weird" is this word that has no meaning; it just means I don't like it, but I can't articulate why. And I thought it was quite effective, uh, one of the more effective things that their not very effective campaign did when Officer Harris and Tim Waltz started calling JD Vance and Trump "weird," because it makes him seem bad. How do you argue against that? Like, "No, I'm normal," like that's the weird thing to say, also. So they latched on to that, and for Douglas to keep saying, "Oh, it's weird to have a comedian on," like, I, I don't think that's an effective word at all. And I don't know if he understood that Dave has been a political commentator for quite some time, um, and, and yeah. So let's see: "The expert narrative has been mandated." Yes, yep, yeah. I think this is a great point; thank you. The expert narrative has been mandated in US schools for decades; it can be assumed that's most people's launching point. It's fair for people to share alternative perspectives; let us decide. Absolutely. And I think that's what Rogan's show does really well; it's, "Hey, you guys thought the Egyptians were the first, well, 5,000 years before that, you know what I mean?" So that is, oh, 300, is this like $2? Do you think it's fair to think that with Dave being on the podcast last week where Joe could push back on his points, the pushback Douglas got from him would have happened if it was just Douglas and Joe? Um, I, the pushback would have happened if it just, I think, I, I, I, I, I'm not psychic; I, I'm going to have to avoid this; I don't know what Joe's reasoning was to have Dave there. Um, I think Joe, he's had plenty of people who are anti-Israel, uh, anti what's going on in Israel right now on his show; I would think he knows their points of view pretty well. Um, I asked Douglas about several of those when I had him on, um, so I don't know what, I don't, I don't understand the, I, in a literal sense, I don't know what led to that situation being the situation that it, uh, uh, was.

Is it safe to say that Douglas Murray would whoop Dave Smith in a duel? I don't think that's safe to say at all, to be honest. So I don't, I don't know about that, um, so I also have the clip of them, um, talking about Israel. So it was interesting because I had Dave, I was, people are like, "Why do you ever talk about Israel?" I was on Dave's show; we discussed Israel, um, at length, and I said to him, "Okay, here's my perspective." And I go, "Correct me if I'm wrong." I said, "This to me is very analogous." And of course, the North Korea guy is going to, uh, regard it as analogous to the Korean War. So in the Korean War, you had, um, the Great Leader Kim Il-Sung in the north, who's an absolute totalitarian monster, and then you had Syngman Rhee in the south, who was not exactly a nice guy, but he's our guy, preferable certainly; he was also an authoritarian; they didn't have, you know, democracy for quite some time. Uh, the Great Leader Kim Il-Sung launches the invasion, and eventually you have, uh, Chairman Mao and the Chinese in the north, backed with Stalin and the Russian forces, and the South you had the South Koreans, the Republic of Korea, with, um, US and UN forces, and the Korean people pay the price; the entire country gets leveled back and forth; like at a certain point, there's just chimneys left, and everything else is just firebombed. And I'm like, "This is what it feels like in Gaza, where you have Hamas pushing the Palestinians and Iran; you have Israel over here, and they don't want them there, and America backing them up to some extent, and the Palestinian people are just getting [ __ ] bombed." And Dave's like, "Yeah, that's, that's about right." I'm like, "Okay, what, what, and I'm like, and I go, Dave, what's the answer?" And he goes, "Look, like, like until like Netanyahu and Hamas like lose their leadership positions, like there's no good way out of this." And I'm like, "Okay, that seems very reasonable to me." On Tim Cast, you said, "Yeah, thank you for explaining my joke." Why do, why are people like this? Do people think I didn't get my own joke? I don't get it; like, I don't get it. Okay, so I have the clip when they discuss Israel; I haven't watched yet. I'm going to talk one more point because this is something else that Douglas, uh, um, says that I think Douglas and Dave and Joe would agree with, and I think because he said it in such an aggressive manner, and people have made memes and made fun of him, I don't blame them, but what I would say, and Dave would agree, and Joe would agree, and Douglas would agree, I'm confident that if you're going to talk about a subject and you went there, like if I'm writing a book on Kla Harris and I interviewed her, I would be more informed; it would, it would, uh, um, add to my commentary and my information, and I don't think that's a controversial statement at all. Now people, Kathy Newman did go, "Oh, you can't talk about Israel unless you've been there." I don't think that's what he said at all; I think he says it would benefit you to go there; that I don't think that's a controvers, just like it benefited me enormously to have gone to North Korea before I wrote the book about it. Douglas may have relied on Dave's lack of credential and did not engage Dave on his demonstrated knowledge; also attacking Joe's guest to start was not helpful to endear himself to Joe's audience. I think that's reasonable; I think that's reasonable to say. So let's pull up the Joe clip, and we are going to, um, I'm, I'm going to watch it live; f it, we'll do it live. Okay, we're gonna present this, um, video file, guys; I'm figuring out how to use the program. Not bad for a 70-year-old. Okay, open this: The Joe Rogan Experience. Okay, and I think that people have been indoctrinated by very bad actors into this, and as a result have excused atrocities or will make excuses for them, make excuses for the people who do them. I think in addition it plays to the some of the darkest things of, uh, the regional mind as well as the international mind. The aims of Hamas, the stated aims include the annihilation of the Jewish people, and October the 7th they had their best go at doing that. And the fact that in a, in a decision between whether or not you're on the side of the people who want to dance and live in peace with their neighbors or whether you're on the side of the people who want to rampage through a dance party bar in the early morning, see this is where I disagree a little with Douglas, how this is framed, for example, um, when Syria, when, uh, um, Assad fell from Syria, immediately everyone's like, "Is this good for us or bad for us?" Like the idea that, the idea that everyone has to take sides in these foreign conflicts, I, I don't agree with that at all. Macheteing at people. I find it amazing that there are so many people who don't know which side they're on, but there are a lot of them. There are a lot of reasons for that, but one of the foremost reasons is the fact that the state of Israel has been uniquely lied about, its history has been uniquely lied about; it has been uniquely put under an international spotlight and then misrepresented in a way which I cannot think of many other countries in the world that have been treated that way, and there are, um, deep reasons for it and shallow reasons for it. The deep reasons include some of the most ancient bigotries of the human heart, and the shallow reasons are people who don't know what the hell they're talking about. Um, okay, I think that there's, look, I, I'm not going to speak for what every person out there believes; I, I don't exactly agree with like the characterization that there was no outpouring of like feeling after October 7th, and certainly like everybody I know was just like, "Oh my god, this is like a horrific atrocity, and like what, an unprecedented terrorist attack from Hamas, the worst terrorist attack in Israeli history, um, against Israelis, and it, it was horrible." I think what a lot of, there, I'm not, I'm not arguing that there are no people who are pro-Hamas or there are no people who are actually like hate Jews or something like that. I do think that what happens is that a lot of people get put in that category who do not belong there, much like we've seen this over the last year and a half where a lot of people, you know, you have, uh, John Pudhuritz calling Thomas Massie anti-Semitic scum because he said, "We're dead broke; we can't afford to fund everybody else's war here." Um, people have been calling Tucker Carlson, uh, anti-Semitic all over the place when these are two guys, Thomas Massie and Tucker Carlson, who have never uttered the words "the Jews" in their life; like they, they're just not, well, this is, this is, I disagree with Dave, and I'm talking about Thomas Massie, Tucker at all, but there's different types of hatred, so you don't have to use that phrase, and you're also entitled to your opinion, um, so I don't think that that I don't, so not anti-Semites at all. So there's a lot of people I think who are, when they're critical of the Israeli government's response to this, get lumped in as pro-Hamas. I will certainly say that's certainly not my position. I think your description of them, "death cult," by the way, the same term that Daryl Cooper, uh, Daryl Cooper used to describe Hamas, I think is an accurate one, and it was horrible, but I, I think that the, you know, I think that your characterization, first of all, of, of that they gave the Palestinians a state in 2005 is just wrong; I just think that is not at all an accurate way to describe the disengagement, which we could get into more if you want to, but first of all, I would just, I agree with Dave; I don't think they gave them a state; I gave, they gave them area, but even still, it was not at all analogous to a state. Point out that if the, if the two-state solution was achieved, um, I assume you're arguing it was taken away after that; you, you're not still arguing that the Palestinians have a state, or are you saying they have had a state since 2005? They had, they were given a state in the Gaza, and when did it, when was it taken away? Well, they kind of screwed it up for themselves on the 7th of October. So you're saying from 2005 all the way till October 7th, there, there was a two-state solution; it had been achieved? Well, it was another state; yeah, okay, but that would be, I, I don't understand what Douglas is saying like here; like, I don't, I don't, like, I literally, I'm trying to see things from his perspective, and I don't understand: two states, then no, it was another state; it was different from the PA. Okay, right, but I'm saying a Palestinian state. Okay, so what's interesting about that is that this is not how, like, this is not how any of the leaders really describe it; I mean, when Netanyahu himself is not claiming that there, they had already achieved a two-state solution, why are you talking about this? What happened in 2005 in the disengagement was that essentially Israel went from occupying the place to surrounding the place, okay, and they've had it under a brutal blockade, um, since 2007, and yes, you were right. Why do you think, why, why do you, I don't agree the blockade was brutal by any means. You really, you don't think the blockade of Gaza was brutal? I mean, I, how brutal do you think the Egyptians are pretty brutal; yeah, they laid, allowed stuff in. I don't, I don't, I, I, I don't even understand what this, what's going on here; it's just there; I, he's just posturing; I don't understand. Okay, I mean, since Douglas, some stuff has gotten in; yes, that's true; no more than some stuff, more than some stuff; okay, some from, I'll say this right, because there's been different levels of blockade even before 2007, going back. I know in 1996 they had like a, a pretty strong blockade that year; according to the World Bank, it contracted 40% of the GDP of, so here we have a comment; what's it say? 30% of Israeli somewhat do 25 cents; okay, interesting, um, of Gaza. So just for, uh, for, for reference, the Great Depression was a 30% contraction; this was in 1996 for one year; they gave them something worse than our Great Depression; that was just one year; they, from 2007 on, there's been a blockade of that country; you don't think that's kept the country poor? Why do you think there's a blockade of any kind? Why is there a blockade? Well, I mean, the, okay, so this, this is something I don't understand. So if you are going, I, I don't, like, I literally don't understand, because this is Douglas's chance to say the reason there's a blockade is X, Y, and Z, like, and that would be a fruitful discussion instead of being like, "Why do you think so? Explain; tell us what, why you think so." The argument from Israel would be, no, why do you think? I would say, okay, I think that the disengagement, I think was correct when he said that; I'm sorry; my, my mistake there. I think the, um, which another quote that I'm sure you're familiar with, but, uh, uh, Dov Weissglass, uh, who was the senior advisor to Sharon, I, I want to hear Douglas's point of view; I want to hear, I, I don't get this, minister at the time, he essentially said the reason we're doing the disengagement, the reason we're doing this is so that we can put the peace process in for Malvolio, that ex, this is the reason we're not answering my question; you're getting right-wing Israeli politicians, but what do you reason? I'm getting there; I'm saying, so I think they disengaged in order to kill the peace process; I think they put the full blockade around the country for the reason that they've always kind of done it there, that yeah, they don't want too much stuff getting in; they want to keep them, as they put it, on a diet, and they don't want, uh, rockets to fly into Israel. The second one is a kind of important one, isn't it? The final one you said it is, um, if, if, uh, the Palestinian leadership in Gaza after 2005 had not, from the get-go, decided to use Gaza as a stockpiling place for rockets to fire into Israel, all of it would be different if they had just resisted the temptation that so many of us do in our lives to stop keeping RPGs in our cellars and then Qassam rockets in our children's bedrooms. All of it could have been different if that desire to live in peace beside your neighbors had superseded the desire to stockpile rockets; it would all be different. Yeah, or if Israel just had occupied them for 60 years, it would all be different too. I mean, why is it always on them? Well, you believe in self-determination, I'm sure. Yes, I believe in individual rights. Yeah, sure. Okay, individual rights, and that includes the right to make bad decisions. Yes, the Palestinians in Gaza, when they voted in Hamas, made a very bad decision. Yeah, of course. Hang on, hang on, and in the years after that, they made bad decision after bad decision. It was a very bad decision to continually fire thousands of rockets into Israel; it was a very bad decision to use what boats came in early on and the, and, and to use the smuggling networks from Egypt not to bring in supplies that you could actually build a thriving society with, but to bring in rockets; it was a very bad idea. Okay, no, there was not starvation in Gaza after 2005; no, there was no deficit of goods coming in; I've been plenty of time; no deficit; no, there are plenty, there are plenty. How many have you been to the crossing points? No, when were you last there at all? I've never been. You've never been? Well, I'm not, am I not allowed to talk about it now? I've never been to, have you ever been to Nazi Germany? Are you allowed to have feelings about them? You can't time travel, but you can, but you can travel. Okay, but so what, so what's the point? Like, I find that lots of people have been there and agree with me, and lots of people have been there and agree with you. So if you're going to spend a year and a half talking about, about a place, you should at least do the courtesy of visiting it. Yeah, I don't, I, I, I don't agree with Douglas in how he said it, and I think if he said it like, um, uh, um, what do you call it, uh, like I had said earlier, if it's like, hey, you would, it would, you know, you would be more informed; that Dave wouldn't deny that either. I

I don't know why he went at it in such a um um aggressive way. All right, I just think this is a non-argument, but okay. I think it's a non-argument, but if you're an expert, well, you have to go and touch the ground. No, I think you have to see. I think it's a good idea to see stuff, particularly if you spend a career talking about something. Yes, I I have a journalistic rule of trying never to talk about a country, even in passing, unless I've at least been there. Okay, it's sort of normal in. It's a normal thing to do. You're talking about. Okay, okay, okay. Now I'm triggered. I I I I I think normal is not a good argument. I don't really care what normal is, and I think that uh I went to England once in 2001. I think it is very reasonable for me to say what is going on there with their free speech stuff is unconscionable and evil. And I don't think, and I'm sure if I talked to British people and I went there, I would be more informed about like how is it affecting them, whether they like it, so on and so forth. But in the context of that, I need to go there to be like, I've been to Germany. I went there for like a day to see what's going on there. I think it's perfectly fine for me and for other people who have done their homework, who tried to do their homework as possible. I would be more informed. I went there again, but I I think this is not a good argument. And not only have you never been to a crossing point in either Egypt or in Israel, but you never even been to the region. Okay, again, I think this is a non-argument. I don't understand. No, it's not a non-argument. Yeah, it is. It's not an argument if you're insisting that you're an expert of some kind. Or why is he fixating on this term? I I don't get it. I don't I don't understand what he's trying to get at. It doesn't make sense. Claiming you're an expert but still talking about it, but I I I I don't I don't get it about the provisions going into Gaza or not if you've never seen any of this going on. So you're not allowed to speak about things that you've read about. You have you can only speak about things that you've seen with your own eyes. Talk about what you want. I don't. But but here Ron or or KTZ, you if what he's saying about the current blockade is inaccurate, you don't need to go there to be informed of this. Douglas or whoever else could bring receipts. Goes, "Hey, you think this is what's going at the blockade? Here's footage." You know what I. Like I I think this is just really.

Yeah, but that is a different matter from spending an awfully long amount of time talking about an issue in a region you haven't even had the courtesy to visit, whilst developing all of these views about it. I mean, now I slightly get an idea of where you're coming from. You've read about this blockade, and so you imagine that that's what it is. I imagine you've read all the people who say that Gaza was a concentration camp, and you probably think that too. Am I right? I mean, again, literally a concentration camp. It shares a lot of similarities. I would think, wow. Well, as I say, you can't time travel back to the era. Let's go back to the Middle East and actually visit the world. The World Bank said, let's pause this. Hold on. Okay, if I can see why people are frustrated with this. If it is your belief, as Douglas's belief seems to be, that it's ridiculous to call it a concentration camp, don't huff, just say, here's the distinction, and just go through the list. It's if he's if Dave is saying from Douglas's opinion something that's ridiculous, he just set you up, just [ __ ] just own him. Like what is just sighing? A I don't get it. I don't understand. In 1996 for the one year are quoting the World Bank. I live in. This doesn't mean anything. This is a non-argument. Yes, I'm saying the World Bank did their own analysis of this and they said that it was a 40% your own analysis. Hold on, you got to stop interrupting. Why don't you do your own analysis? But he is doing his own analysis. I don't understand. Let him finish. The World Bank said that 40% drop in the GDP of one year due to the blockade, and there's been a blockade from 2007 on. So are you saying that there this hasn't had an economic effect? Is that the argument? No, I'm of course it'll have an economic effect. So you're saying you have to be on the ground and do an audit of the block. I really don't like. Okay, because I I was seeing a lot of comments about this debate online. I'm glad I waited to watch it on a live stream. I want to point out to everyone watching this at home that both Dave and Joe just not not iron unironically used the phrase, so what you're saying. I'm going to rewind this because they literally did it, which is just humorous in of itself. Let's just watch that again. Bank said that 40% drop in the GDP of one year due to the blockade, and there's been a blockade from 2007 on. So are you saying that there this hasn't had an economic effect? Is that the argument? No, I'm of course it'll have an economic effect. So you're saying you have to be on the ground and do an audit of the blockade in order to be able to. I think you should at least know what it is, what the territory is, what the what the situation is in the region. Yes, absolutely. And the only way. Hold on, hold on. Murray was being an elitist. It's like saying we can't have an opinion or complain about DC being a swamp because they'll be there to touch the ground. Yeah, I don't get it. Happy pay. Yes, happy pesock to everybody. Um, I'm being a bad Jew today. So you're saying Douglas and Dave Smith step to the octagon. It goes decision. Douglas is pretty yolked, so I my money will be on him. Instead of presenting facts, he tried to undercut Dave's credibility. Classic leftist tactics and front stress. I don't understand this. Like I don't get it. To do that is to be there in person. I think that's the best way. It's not the only way, but it's the best way for sure. Okay, let's let's steal man this. Let's suppose Douglas is correct that that is the best way. I think people would agree broadly speaking that the more direct information, the more you're there, the more you learn that would be the best approach, but that's not the only approach. We have things called secondary sources. We have things called discussion with things called debate. So yeah, if you can't do that, there's plan B. It's not uh binary. Um, notice how Douglas comes out very condescending. Even have good points, the way he delivers them turns me right the right right the other way. Okay, yeah, for sure. If you have never seen the countries in question, you've never spoken in Douglas's defense, and I I think Dave would agree with this broadly speaking. I I wish I knew what the backstory was to this setup, because if I showed up to promote a book for three hours with Rogan and it's like, why is this guy here? I wouldn't be a happy camper, but I don't know what the setup is here. Um, I I I I Dave is obviously not um like a Jen Weaguer figure or something like that, so uh I think he's listening to what Douglas is saying uh and engaging him with that. I tech the one I. So I haven't talked to any of them uh about this since the only person I texted with Dave and I said to him, I'm very glad it didn't get uh personal and ugly, which I really hate uh so that that's what I said. Okay, Dave's makes on analysis. You're ping some cheap Afghan points with no way coming in, which not true. It's on Dave to go see what he's talking about. No, no, but I I I think it's on Douglas to tell him, Dave, if you'd gone there, you'd know, here's what's true. That's like what a debate would mean. So if someone's uninformed and you're arguing with them, inform them and inform the audience. You missed my chat earlier. I think this is a cultural difference. Let's open it. Is this it? There's There's a lot of these oh here is this it. I'm sorry, they're just coming in um and they're vanishing. Okay, sorry. Let's. Okay, what's this one? The This is my point for you in North Korea. Going there helping me with your book, but I don't have to go there. Know it's a hot situation. Sure, good to the people in question. You've never interviewed anyone. You've never gone around. You've never seen the terrain and so on, and you've used Wikipedia. I'm sorry, no, that's not the same thing. Okay, I don't think he has visited Wikipedia. I don't know where that Wikipedia thinks to him. Dave admit he hasn't visited any not some of these places he talks about. Equally get off your ass and go if you care that much. Man, Murray never said Dave can't have your opinion. I sure. Okay, well, I've not just used Wikipedia, but didn't you write a big piece when the war in Ukraine first came out titled something like I've been to Ukraine and they can win, they can repel the Russians. So you could go there and still get it wrong, right? No, I was with the Ukrainian armed forces in 2022 when they were retaking territory from the Russians. Right, the last time they had any advances. Yeah, I said I can see how they can win, which would be advances like that. Yeah, you said if we just fund them or if we just arm them that they can. Then you said that the Ukrainian army was making great successes, which it was when I was with them in the fall of. Listen, there were lots of people who went to Iraq and said, "We'll be greeted as liberators and it'll be paid for in oil and democracy will spread through the region." So I I don't know either take on the arguments or don't, but I don't think your arguments in. That's a fair point. If I've there have been many like if I'm on live stream like let's just right now if someone super chats me a dumb question, I'm not going to be like, well, I'm the live streamer, you're just a pun. I'll address the question. If they're wrong, I'll say where they're wrong, and there's not even a pretense the person asking a question is somehow an authority in any kind. So I I don't understand this. Okay, fine. Well, then present a counterargument to it, but to just tell me I'm not allowed to talk about something because I'm not an expert. Okay, fine. Well, you're not an expert, so you shouldn't talk about it. You haven't been there. Yeah, I know, but you keep playing this game where it's like the whole opening to this podcast was like the non-experts talking about this is such a problem. Now you're saying I haven't been there, I can't talk. Okay, now let's let me uh uh take another step back, and this is something that I think Dave would also agree with. Let's talk about autodidacts. So autodidacts, which is a great word, is people who are self-taught, right? And I'm going to use this in reference to myself. The reason the the white pill is subtitled a tale of good and evil and not a history is because I'm confident that if I sat down with a historian of the cold war or the Soviet Union, they would really wipe the floor with me and educate me. I was telling a story. It's not at all in any sense doesn't pretend to be a comprehensive history. I don't talk about Vietnam, Cuba, Mao, all these other huge parts parts. I think I mentioned Bri once. There's huge things that are missing because I'm telling a story. So I I think the point being it's better uh when people have broader context and broader perspective are in a position to speak on on history. And here's Hel Manin, whose picture is hanging over my desk right now, wrote a book called the American language, and linguists think it's a it's a joke because when you are like self-taught and going down rabbit holes, you're not aware of the broader literature. I'm not speaking about Dave. I'm not speaking about uh um Daryl. I'm just saying this is con often a problem when you're not in the field and you go down rabbit holes. You don't know what people who've made this their life's work kind of take for granted. This is a very common issue about it. Is there a blockade there that's causing economic uh devastation or not? According to the World Bank, there is. First of all, I don't think it's a game. I don't think it's a game at all. Me neither. I'm not playing a game. Okay, okay. But this is semantics. No, but this is important. Mhm. I've seen plenty of this up close. I've seen plenty of this with my own eyes because I do believe that one of the things you should do if you're talking about something is to see it. Yeah, you've established that. Is there a blockade? The blockade that existed. Douglas's argument supreme say Mr. Anne on FB on the rare occasion that he actually makes an argument besides people authority. He's very intelligent, but he's being disingenuous. Hey, Michael, since you were in the room during this debate, do you have any ability to respond intelligently, but would you not agree? I'm not I'm not trying to send you out Joshua that if I was in the room, I'd have more to add. Like I'd be able to see the body language, and I'd be able to kind of have more background. So you would agree with that. So I think that is and I think Douglas would agree with that and Dave would agree with that and so would Joe. To the extent it existed was a blockade to try to make sure that the Israelis and the Egyptians knew what materials were going in and out of Gaza after the first rocket fires when Hamas, in fact, before Hamas was elected, the Israelis and the Egyptians, the Egyptians didn't do a very good job of it, were meant to be trying to make sure that the materials that went into Gaza were not materials that could be used to build up the Gazan Hammaz warring machine. The reason why uh trucks get searched. Okay, so this is what I was. This should have happened 5 minutes ago when Dave was like, this is why there's a blockade. This is your side. Explain it. Explain why there's a blockade. This is information is not because the Israelis want to search through grain or flour. It's because they wanted to stop the trucks containing the arms and the munitions that the Gaz and Hamas and Islamic Jihad fighters were going to use to fire against Israel. And I'm sorry, it it just makes the most obvious strategic sense. As the great late great Joan Rivers once said, if if uh if uh as an appeal to authority um that one the uh that one I like. She also said Michelle Obama is a man. Yeah, I know, but you know what else is really bothering me? These are three funny guys. Douglas is extremely witty, and it makes me sad that obviously this is extremely intense issue. Kids are dying. Like let's be honest, you know, but if it was handled differently uh like I had on my show with with you know Dave and Will there was um because at the end of the day these people can't do anything about it. It would have behooved everyone, and this is what I try to do with dear reader, like put some humor on it because it's such dark stuff. And I understand people's intensity and passion, but if we had more of a conversation like this, I think everyone would learn a lot more. Maybe I'm being naive. I don't know. Um, Dave is in calling the God situation a game. Yeah, yeah, sure. Okay. And here we have for most people politics ro that's a no-brainer. Uh, the effective trolling burns would likely increase the expert level. If you had been there, I wouldn't be trolling. I would be very much focused on uh um uh u moderating and steel manning and and facilitating discussion instead of uh getting them to um but heads and I that's happened again when I have these guys on because people ask, oh, why is when you I have lots of friends who really don't share politics, and I don't share politics with many of my friends, but if they know they'll be respected and heard and treated fairly, it's really easy to get people who disagree uh as long as they don't despise the other think act in bad faith to have these kind of conversations. It's not hard because they want to. Oh, man. Okay. Tim says, "Seeing a thing with your own eyes can enrich your perspective, but we're done in Krueger." Sure, that's fair. Visitors versus sex pass. Yes, that's very fair. Uh, that's a very fair point. And Ben says, "Both parties assume that human flourishing is a good thing. Seems arbitrary and aren't argued." I I I think that's a fair assumption. I I share that assumption. Um. Okay, are we cut up? Okay, let's finish this. You do that. I'm saying she got everything right. So continue. Go ahead. But uh as Jen River said, if if New York was being rocketed from New Jersey, we would level New Jersey. Uh, I don't think you need to level it. By the way, Max Blumenthal was to Gaza. He saw what they wanted to see. Now he thinks he knows everything. I don't I don't know who Max Blumthal is. I can't speak on that, but you would at least try to make sure that rockets weren't being imported in larger quantities into New Jersey. Of course. Okay, that's all the Israelis were doing. No, no. Okay. Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. For him to say that's all the Israelis are doing, I don't think that's accurate because I don't think uh the relationship of New Jersey to New York and New Jersey to America is at all analogous to the relationship between the Palestinians to uh um uh uh you know, broader Israel. I I don't think that's a fair uh analogy, and I don't think it's also a fair analogy in the sense that like the population of New Jersey doesn't want to destroy America. So this is I don't know. It's fair. I feel Douglas comes off like he believes that non-experts. Hold on, let me. I'm going to remove this. I feel Douglas comes off like he believes that non-experts' opinion on these topics shouldn't have the weight they do when they have big audiences. It feels condescending. He's not wrong, and I don't think people would disagree in that a lot of times, and this applies to me. People can get big audiences by being blowhards. Joanne Reed, right? Joanne Reed had a fairly big audience. I don't think Joanne Reed knew what she was talking about. I think Jo, and for people who can't distinguish between the left, I think there's a very big difference between Joy and Reed and Rachel Madow. I think Rachel Mau is smart. I think Rich often do her homework. I think she's often grossly dishonest, but if I had to. Which of those two would you want to have as your accountant or as your doctor? I mean, it's it's a no-brainer. So I think that is kind of what he and I think Dave would agree with that as well that a lot of times people who have big audiences doesn't necessarily they mean know what the hell they're talking about. He challenged what's his name uh Hassan to a fight. So yeah, this you know, it it I I it just really um I think it's just unfortunate. I I guess it's just unfortunate because um Manser Ashkar is a Drews Israeli and former IDF of special forces. I think it's unfortunate because I feel like this um discussion debate between them didn't really move the needle, and I see a lot of these uh um I want to thank Sydney. She tweeted out, she goes, "Scott Adams has this idea of like most what we're what we're experiencing as our culture bifrocates is it's two movies on one screen, and some people see one movie, some people another." I see a ton of Twitter comments. Oh, my god, you know, uh Douglas put Dave into the ground, and everyone else like, oh, my god, Douglas came off terribly. Dave owned him, and what would have been great for me and for a lot of you, I'm sure, is wow, I learned so much. I can understand both perspectives now. So a lot of people also think there's only one perspective to understand, which is fine, but even if you disagree with the other perspective uh it's not all uh in both sides. I don't think I don't think everyone on both sides of this issue is in bad faith. I think that's crazy to say. Um, is Maria's pointing out that Smith hasn't been to Israel a bank hand attempting Smith's Jewishness implying? I don't think that's the case at all. No way. Um, I I there's no way that that's the case. I don't know that even that Douglas even knows that Dave's Jewish uh Smith. So yeah, I don't I don't think that's the case at all. I listened to the white pill. Made me cry. Hope you're happy with yourself. Take my money. Yeah, imagine writing it. So a lot of people uh make fun of me the Nazis do cuz I was crying in Lex Lex Friedman's podcast about my grandmother running for her life and facing starvation during World War II, but I was also at Gold's Gym crying about the Berlin Wall and and Peter Fector and things like that. So yeah, it was brutal to write that book. Joy Reed is for the conventional cast. Sometimes they're the dumbest. There's there's education and there's intelligence and there's money and there's class, and they're not at all the same thing. It's not possible, guys. This was really. So I'm glad this went so well, and you guys enjoyed it so much. I'm going to start doing these again uh if you please. Oh, so I'm going to put this up again. Put this up again uh and I'm going to put the link up again. Is this the link? I'm going to put this on the screen. Please go get your tickets. I will look forward to seeing you in person in a few weeks. Um, this was a lot of fun. I'm so glad I understand now how to put up clips and I can react to them. Um, please subscribe. It's youtube.com/michbos official. I might be moving this to Rumble though. I might be moving this to Rumble. Um, and next book's going to be coming out next month. U it's going to be a total. You're going to laugh when you see it. Oh, gee, is this really him? Oh, that's so nice. That's so nice. I regret scaring him at the at the um uh um uh supermarket. Not really. I really enjoy this. Can't wait for your next stream. Wait for my copy of Dere to arrive. It's a good book. So what I'm going to do on my next stream, I've had this sitting my desk for quite some time. We're going to go back to my old school stuff. This stuff. So there's a company called Deer, and they make weird fragrances, and I got all the weird ones. So we're going to go here, and I'm going to smell them all while we answer questions, and it's going to be scents like fireplace. Can you see it? I don't know. Fireplace and we got fuzzy balls, and then we got bubble bath. So we're going to do all those. It'll be a fun little activity. Theory does not make practice unless someone loses an armor leg during the conversation to make it real big of true. I brought my tickets already. I'll be wearing my Giius Naked and Famous jacket to the show. That's a great company. They just came out with an even heavier brand of uh um jeans. So that's going to be really uh uh cool. Um, God, I I I I just feel like that discussion was a lost opportunity, and it makes me sad, and and it also, you know what else makes me sad? Like what what's just going on there? It's just I I've never heard anyone give me um a good not underwear gnome's answer. Dave showed up to move the needle. Murray showed up to talk about definition. Murray showed up to sell his book. So that's the thing where I can see why he'd be a little testy to your point. Uh, Der Raul is one of the foremost expert infection disease. He runs famous lab. Okay. Okay. Uh, if there's no more questions, I'm going to go get a uh haircut. I am glad I I I I'm glad I watched this. I don't know what I how I'm going to handle it. Um, I'm sure I'll talk to both of them again. In all three of them obviously in the future. Um

By the way, I don't know if you saw this, but Donald Trump just endorsed um Douglas's book. So that's that's a big that's a big point for Douglas. Uh, let me put it up on uh. So yeah, that's a thing.

Um, in honor of Passover, which one of your four children--I'm obviously the wicked son? Are you crazy? What are you doing? What kind of question is that? We had this at Roseanne's house last year, and I was obviously the wicked son. Uh, it's hard to be white pill in Colorado. With the You're You're right, get the hell out of there. I'm not kidding. I just--this week's episode with Corey Dangelus--what's going on in Colorado? They're making misgendering your child legally child abuse. They legally, by law, have to take this into account. There's a custody battle. Get out of that state. I'm not--this is not an alert--get out.

His lab made contributions to the field: isolation of over 20% of bacteria and/or 50% of archaea for humans; discovery of four viral families, including the world's first virus giant, mimivirus. Cool. That's really cool.

Um, all right, I am going to bounce. I'm going to leave this up, so I hope you guys learned something and enjoyed something. Um, uh, I'm kind of bummed. I'm kind of bummed. That's all I'm gonna say. And and I'm also bummed that people are dying and there's no end in sight. So yeah, all right. See you on the interwebs. Talk to you soon, guys.