Ethnobotany: The Story of Plants and People with Susan Leopold

Welcome to the Virtual Herbalism Conference. I'm your host, Lindsey Feldpausch, and I am so pleased to be welcoming our next guest, Dr. Susan Leopold. Susan is the Executive Director of the United Plant Savers, a plant conservation leader, and an ethnobotanist whose life's work is seated in the deep living relationships between plants and people. Susan has championed the protection of at-risk medicinal plants and the wild places they call home, fostering ethical harvesting, habitat restoration, and a culture of stewardship across the herbal community. She brings a PhD in environmental studies and ethnobotany, decades of on-the-ground conservation and community engagement work, and of course, ethnobotanical experience to this conversation. Please help me in welcoming Dr. Susan Leopold for our talk today on the topic, Ethnobotany: The Story of Plants and People.

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. I'm super excited. I love talking about this stuff.

It is definitely your life's work, Susan.

Yeah. We're so grateful to have you here, and I would love to start off just by telling us more about ethnobotany as the story of plants and people, and what aspect of this field do you want the audience to feel in their bones?

Yeah, awesome. Great question. Yeah, I often tell this story about how I was in middle school, and I don't even know where I came up with this idea, but it was the science fair, and you had to come up with your own project. I grew carrot tops, and so I had three tupperwares with rocks and water. I grew one carrot top by itself. I grew two carrot tops in opposite places in the tupperware. Then I grew a third container with a whole bunch of carrot tops all together in the center. Then I charted their growth. Then my hypothesis was that plants are like people, too, and they need each other. The carrots that grew the most, obviously, were the carrots that were all together. I don't know. I think as a kid, I was constantly thinking about the plant world and the people world and what that intersection was. I didn't know the term ethnobotany.

I was a geography major at Boston University, and I will never forget the moment there was a big box of discounted books in the little gift shop. I saw The Healing Forest by Richard Evans Schultes in that box of books, and I bought it. I went home and I read the introduction where Richard Evans Schultes, a Harvard botanist, ethnobotanist, considers himself an ethnobotanist. It was really at the turn of the century, the 1920s, where the term ethnobotany starts to come into the academic literature, and it's really as simple as a study of the relationship between people and plants. Dr. Evans Schultes was a botanist during World War II and sent to the Amazon to research a disease-resistant rubber plant because everybody needed rubber for tires and for the war. That was his mission. But while he's down there, he's introduced to all these tribes, and he starts becoming extremely fascinated with their use of plants for everything in their lives, including medicinal plants. And that's really what The Healing Forest as a book is about, his journey to the Amazon and seeing the forest as a healing forest. I was just like, that's it. Aha moment. I want to be an ethnobotanist. I just felt like everything in my life that I felt passionate about I was curious about.

I would say the study of geography in general is a study of the relationships. You're looking at demographics, you're looking at geography, you're looking at people's impact on geography, on nature's impact on geography, on wetlands, rivers. I do think there's a lot of correlation. Of course, there's spin offs of ethnobotany into ethnobiology, which is looking at people's relationships with insects and animals and the biological world. I think a lot of ethnobotanists consider themselves ethnobiology. There's an element that ethnobotany is rooted in economic botany. So how plants play an economic role. Of course, there's the Journal of Economic Botany, which is the staple in the academic field that's probably been around the longest. There's a lot of discussions within that space of how you define ethnobotany, and you can really take it in almost any direction. And I think the direction that I have chosen is really looking at conservation of these useful plants in their ecology, and certainly those plants that are threatened, maybe the combined threatened impact of use and loss of habitat and environmental degradation, all the things that create a diverse situation that takes a lot to dive into. I think that's where when we study plants at risk with United Plant Savers, every plant is so unique, and every plant has a story. It's really hard to make these broad generalizations. It takes really going deep into one particular plant to really understand the complexity and what makes sense, what doesn't make sense.

I think that's what makes United Plant Savers very unique is that most conservation organizations are super focused on... It's just so easy to say, just don't touch and don't use. Take pictures. When you look at the perspective of how our parks and protected areas are managed, but what we do know is that interactions between plants and people actually can create diversity within a species and you can't deny the relationship between people and plants and the impact we've had on creating diversity. But it's complex. It's easier just to be like, Don't touch. That's where United Plant Savers is extremely unique. Not that there isn't a role for organizations like the Native Plant Society, which there absolutely are, and habitat conservation. But we've always been about how do we create a reciprocal relationship with our environment and how do we use plants in a way that promotes that reciprocal relationship. That's a big mouthful, but I do think, sadly, ethnobotany has struggled academically. Harvard had one of the strongest departments of ethnobotany, and they just, I think it was back in the '90s, where they sold off the collections and they stopped the program. There's very few programs where you can get degrees in ethnobotany.

I was very fortunate that I studied undergrad at Friends World College, which is a part of Long Island University, where you create your own degree. I studied tropical ethnobotany as an undergrad. Then I went to the Conway School in Western Mass in environmental design and planning, and then I discovered Antioch's PhD program in environmental studies, which allowed me to do my dissertation on ethnobotany. I think most ethnobotanists out there have just had a very diverse academic background or non-academic background. I don't think you have to go to school to become an ethnobotanist. I think we're all inherently ethnobotanists in our own capacity as humans, living and surviving on planet Earth. I think it's a personal passion and whether it comes in an academic framework or not. Obviously, you can focus on botany or Anthropology or come at it from geography. There's lots of pathways, and it's extremely interdisciplinary. That's what makes it really difficult in the academic setting because everybody is so focused on very... You're a business major, you're a botany major, you're an anthropology major. But when you try and overlap and become more interdisciplinary, it becomes problematic in our traditional academic setting.

What a fascinating journey you have been on this, Susan. Yeah, it sounds like ethnobotany is a web that has been woven throughout many different disciplines. And I think it's a beautiful thing to share the story of plants and people. I love that you brought up already, the reality is being a human on this planet is to be in relationship and in story with plants, right? From an ethnobotanical framework, where do they speak about the relationship starting with plants and people, and how do they document this plant knowledge?

Yeah, that's a good question. There's lots of aspects to how one conducts ethnobotanical research. Typically, collecting herbarium specimens and documenting stories that go along with those herbarium specimens of use. It's so fascinating because you can have one plant and it can grow in different tropical areas or be in different cultural communities and have very different cultural uses. That's why gathering ethnobotanical knowledge can be so rich. Also, I think when you're gathering knowledge, I don't know, I'm always about the power of three and triangulation. I mean, a plant could have a relationship with one person and have a story that's just relevant to that one person. Sometimes it's really helpful to get at least three different interviews on one plant and see where that overlapping information resides. But there's a lot of good research out there on methodology in conducting ethnobotanical research. You can come at research from a quantitative perspective and a qualitative perspective. From a quantitative perspective, it's very data-driven. What the plant is, how it's being used, what it's being used for, and really gathering... Jim Duke is an amazing quantitative native ethnobotanist who was so data obsessed and also a bibliophile and really created multiple databases. Daniel Moerman's ethnobotany of North America is just that he's just compiled all of this research into a bibliography of information that has been collected in a way that is accessible by species. Then you have this qualitative approach, which is a methodology that's more abstract and based on just gathering stories and interviews, and it's a long form. I feel like that's an oversimplification of two different approaches to how one might see or tackle ethnobotanical research and go about gathering information.

Of course, there is a lot of, within the academic realm, people don't want to cause harm when doing research. There's a big element about making sure you're being mindful of the knowledge you're collecting and that the person you're collecting it from and you share the same perspective on how that information can be shared. Then there's the element of being mindful of the types of questions that you might ask somebody and being aware that those questions might be triggering. That's really important to build long-term relationships with the people that you're asking for information. Just to go to somebody and be like, Tell me everything. That doesn't really work so well. So just like these things take time, relationships take time. And probably someone's not going to share with you their secrets or interconnections with plants unless they feel like there's a sense of trust. And so there's a lot of good information about how you go about all those things and certainly diving into the literature. That's something that I like to do whenever I go somewhere new. I want to go to a bookstore and I want to see whatever the local books are that are written about that area and that culture and see who those people are that have been doing this work and honor that first or go online and see what books are related to the cultural stories and connections of places that you're going to travel to and really do your due diligence and research and know who's done that work before you and have a sense of what's going on. Sometimes it's always good just to be in a place and soak it in before you try and dive into acquiring information and knowledge and also be very clear on your intention of why you're doing this and what are the outcomes you hope to achieve. These are all things to be mindful and thinking about.

Those are really important messages to share about ethnobotany, Susan. These are living traditions, right? These are the stories that are still accessible in today's world. I think it's interesting just juxtaposing that with the stories that we can derive from, say, archeological digs or like Ötzi, the Iceman, and what plants were found on this mummified human from thousands of years ago, and it's just all so very fascinating. You are in Appalachia. Actually, we both are kind of in the same region of Appalachia, and so you've done a lot of work in the Appalachian region. I would love to hear if you have a plant story that really awakened your sense of ethnobotany in relation to Appalachia or elsewhere, but one that guides your work today.

Yeah, that's a lot to unpack. Something that's super fascinating about our history is that during the Great Depression, one of, I think, amazing government programs and putting people back to work was the need to collect folklore. It was something that was seen as very valuable and important. There were lots of federal programs that were geared towards going out and interviewing people and gathering the folklore. Of course, Appalachia is such a mix of so many different cultures through different waves of migration and settlement and, of course, all the indigenous diversity of so many different tribes and languages and all that mixing together. I did my dissertation on the Bull Run Mountains, which is right here in Northern Virginia. It's a small mountain range, but very diverse because it's where the Blue Ridge meets the Coastal Plains. It was also a place where a lot of people escaped indentured servitude. There were many different cultures that were enslaved in the founding of the New World. Often, they would get here and try to escape their situation. The Bull Run Mountains was a place where people went to hide. What's really fascinating about that that I discovered in doing my interviews and my dissertation was that in a very unique and short time, these people gained a very deep connection to their environment. Simon Kenton was a historical figure that grew up in the Bull Run Mountains. He fled because he thought he killed a man. Then he goes on to live this extraordinary life, traveling with all different tribes, marrying an Indigenous woman. It was one of those just mythical frontiersmen. The story that I have is that of the birth tree. It begins with a midwife who lived in the Bull Run Mountains and was there for Simon Kenton's birth. What they would do is when a child was born, they would take a piece of the hair off of the child's head and they would go find a young tree and they would take some of the bark off of the tree and stick the child's hair in the tree and then secure the hair and the bark of the tree. The belief was that as the tree grew, so would the child grow, and that their lives would be forever intertwined. Of course, that tree grew big and strong, and it was hit by lightning. Parts of it were cut down to make parts of different furniture and guns. But no matter what, that tree just kept growing, just like Simon Kenton kept surviving, near-death experience after near-death experience. And that tree was super symbolic to people who lived in the Bull Run mountains, and they considered that tree very sacred. It was a sweet gum tree. And that story really stuck with me for many reasons, in part because that idea of a birth tree is something that you find in cultures all over the world. That idea that when a child is born, you connect that child to a tree, or maybe you plant your placenta in the ground and put a tree over top. That our lives as humans are deeply interwoven to the ecology of our environment and our sense of place. If a tree grows strong, so does the child grow strong. I don't know. Anyways, I could tell lots of folklore stories. I mean, it's really so rich that we had this time period where those stories were collected. I was very fortunate that the Bull Run Mountains was one of the areas that they specifically collected a lot of information. I was able to weave that folklore with people still living there who had connection to that in the '40s when those stories were collected. That's one that always gives me chills when I think about it.

I love hearing that story, Susan. I think there's so much to gain from it. Just as you've mentioned, the interweaving of people and plants and the fact that we do rely upon plants to survive and this tree connecting to the survival of a specific person. I haven't heard of the birth tree, so I'm really excited to have heard that. I wonder if you could share a little bit about your perspective on how language and plant names through that language shape the transmission of knowledge and the usage of plants across generations.

I think in our current study of botany, we use Linnaeus's form of classification, a binomial Latin naming system. We've created this system of families, and within those families, we have these scientific names. I think it's really helpful in our quest to document and understand, create some navigation of species. I think it helped to really see how plants have similarities with where they grow within the elevation and where they are in relation to the equator. I mean, all of these things really help us understand global biodiversity, and so it's super helpful. But that taxonomy is just one way, and that's the purpose of that taxonomy, to create that structural way to study nature. But Indigenous communities and even folkloric communities and common names have their own way of telling stories because the language is based around that cultural relationship with the plant. So these names, like trillium is called birthroot. So we identify the healing purpose of trillium based on that folk name. Sadly, we're losing languages and biodiversity at such a rapid pace. The loss of languages and the loss of biodiversity have really been linked together. I think more so than the cosmology of a language around a culture, it's more about we're losing that cultural knowledge when we lose a language. Then within that culture, there's that reverence for the plants. It's like you protect what you know. That's the fragile web that is broken, that can be really difficult to mend. There are so many languages and so many different cultures that just disappeared that we don't even know about or that we have some inkling of because there was some census done in the 1600s or the 1700s. It is super tragic, and it's a big part of creating the social and cultural aspect to protecting our environment. Obviously, many people, different groups were completely removed from their landscape and relocated to really different ecologies. That's certainly an element. It's when you dive into some of these other languages and how they describe a plant, it's just so fascinating what can be learned and in that aspect. And so, I don't know. It's also like, when you have so few threads, how do you bring back that relationship?

I'm a member of the Patawomeck Tribe here in Virginia. It's located in White Oak, Virginia. We're one of the few Virginia state-recognized tribes that has a language, in part because it was documented in the 1700s. There's a small dictionary of that language, and it's super fascinating to tap into it. But then it's the practicality. Primarily what was documented was just basic communication. A lot of the really minutiae of those things that explain the relationship that that plant had in its environment are lost. But anyways, it's definitely something that's been written quite a lot about. Wade Davis has a whole book dedicated to that topic, and many others have written about that. But I also think it's fun just to put yourself out there and think about what's in your yard and what plants you use. How would you name a plant? If you love bee balm, what's your own term for that plant? It's super fascinating to think about. But I do think that Indigenous languages and folk terms, they describe that plant and its role or something unique about that plant versus, like, the scientific realm is just a piece of the puzzle. Sometimes there are terms that refer to the characteristics of the plant, or maybe there are terms that refer to who did the work to document that plant. There is some things to be gleaned from scientific names for sure. In itself, it's a whole language. Yeah, the etymology of plant names, that's always fun to dive into. I think this is one of the reasons why ethnobotany is so important, though, because we are supporting the documentation of these cultural relationships, the languages, and really working towards that cultural restoration and preservation through the story and the language and really placing value on it.

As you're aware, Susan, so many of our plant teachings do come from Indigenous folks and herbalists of color. What are the ways that you feel we can give back through this historical plant knowledge to the originating communities?

Yeah, I think the plants want to be in our lives. I think absolutely we want to be respectful of cultures and uses of plants. But I think it's a delicate dance between also forming our own relationships with plants. I think that's why I love herb conferences so much, because we get this opportunity to share and learn from others. I think it just goes back to building relationships. It can be tricky. Plants can mean different things to different people. I I think that when Rosemary founded the International Herb Symposium, a big part of the vision and mission was to recognize that people can have all different types of relationships with plants, and there's no wrong or right way to go about creating that healing connection with plants, and that being respectful of all the different cultural ways and learning about other cultures is how we acknowledge and give back. I feel like in most cases, we're really learning about, okay, how do we use this plant? What do we use it for? But I think we need to balance that with, what can we do for the plant world? What can we do to create more diversity in our local environment? That can be from the plants that grow on our porch and pots to the yard that we have outside of our home to volunteering in a community or state or whatever park is in our area. There's all little things. I think that's, for me, that's the mindfulness, and I feel like that's the unique perspective that United Plant Savers brings to the herbal space. Whether it's creating a botanical sanctuary or whether it's planting some goldenseal and ginseng in your yard or whatever that is for you. It's not like everybody's got to go out and plant those things. It might be something really different in your environment. Just in the United States alone, we have so many different amazing environments that host all kinds of plants and insects and birds and animals. I think it's so hard to come up with really generalized things because every group, every person, every plant has different needs and different things. But I really feel like we're all part of this humanity that lives on this planet that is our home and plants are our ancestors. How we do our little part is, to me, the important thing.

Yeah, it's tricky. I mean, there's so many layers to unpack that have happened historically and I think that's why I just dove into the Bull Run Mountains so much, because I think we all are... What was happening then is this place of refuge. We all are this mix, navigating these really constantly changing environmental, social, political landscapes. I don't know. For me, it's really rooted in learning. I feel like a lot of people just say stuff off the cusp and haven't really done their research because there's a lot of fascinating history out there. I just went and saw Ziggy Marley, and I can't get it out of my head, [singing] "You don't know your past, you don't know your future." I was like, Wow, he was really writing some good music back in the early '90s. Anyways, that's how I feel. I feel like that was a really great note to end on, Susan, in terms of that question. Yeah. And well, I mean, really what you're saying and what I'm hearing is we do have to just approach plants and our relationship with them from a place of gratitude and reciprocity and do whatever we can in our own little ways to give back.

If you had to outline the ethnobotanical story of modern herbalism, how would you do that?

Wowzers. I guess maybe modern herbalism in regards to just here in the United States, because I think that story is a little different in all these different places. But that's a real big reason why I wanted to do International Herb Symposium with the focus on the Eclectics. I do think that... I wrote an article in the journal that just came out, and that's online. Anybody can download it, Why the Eclectics? I talk about how that's who they were. They were not tied to any one dogma, that they were really trying to look at all the different ways and what could work best in that situation for that person, and very much about the empowerment of plants to heal. If people don't necessarily know who the eclectics were or that history, I feel like their mindset has set the stage for how we see our health and how we are very much about empowerment and taking control and taking responsibility for our own health. I think those values linger in the renaissance of modern herbalism. It was not that long ago. We've been in a really quick U-shape. It wasn't that long ago where doctors were herbalists, and there was 50 schools of Eclectic medicine in the United States, and that most of the doctors that were there in the turn of the century were graduates of schools of Eclectic medicine, and that you could find herbs in every small little store in every small little rural town across America. Then we go through this pharmaceutical rise in allopathic medicine, and of course, amazing technologies and discoveries that have probably changed mankind's health more than we can imagine. I mean, antibiotics alone have been the key to people surviving into their 50s, 60s, and 70s. Most people overall did not survive because they got infections or whatever that they died from. Most child mortality was, even with herbs and all that good stuff, child mortality was very high. A fever would come and that child would die. Antibiotics and some other things like Benadryl and Tylenol, God forbid, all these things had major impact on actual human health in a way that hasn't been seen for thousands of years. There's that. But then you have this renaissance "Back to Landers" and people like Rosemary Gladstar and David Winston and these people really rediscovering the eclectics and that knowledge, and then the rise in herbal medicine, dietary supplements, health food stores, co-ops, all of that that we see today. Now we're in this really interesting realm where young people are rediscovering herbalism, and it's creating a mecca of people taking more responsibility in their health and well-being and seeking that out as alternatives to what's going on. There's just an explosion of up-and-coming herbalists and educators and all the people on Herbal Academy. I forget the question exactly, but I feel like that is a huge story. Where it's going to go, I don't know.

I'll share this, that I was traveling in Bhutan, and they actually have—it was founded in early 1970s—Traditional Medicinal Hospital. That is focused on herbal medicine, and that works in conjunction with the regular hospital. It's a massive hospital, and they train doctors, and it's six years of study. You go to see your doctor, and they prescribe herbal medicine that's manufactured right there in their pharmacy. They do the acupuncture and the cupping and the massage and the herbal steams. And when I interviewed one of the doctors, she talked about how they acknowledge that herbal medicine is good for things that allopathic medicine can't treat, and that allopathic medicine is good for things that herbs can't treat. How those two things work together, it's like, of course. She talked about what are the things that they are most successful at treating? Depression, headaches, sinus, respiratory, and pain. Yeah, go figure. Anyway, so that's really fascinating to think about. We write our own future. What does that look like for us looking ahead? I mean, in China, they've integrated acupuncture into most hospitals. I mean, these are things that don't overlap. There's huge Ayurvedic hospitals all over India. I think there's elements for the two to kind of, whatever, but it's so disjointed. But obviously, it's a huge ecosystem in itself, the economy of people who are writing books, who are making herbal medicine, who are making herbal products. I think it's only going to continue to grow. It's doing so organically. It's tricky. Of course, you're seeing in Canada and in Europe, more of a regulation and crack down on these things. Here we have our whole labeling. We're a dietary supplement, not a wellness product per se. But yet we all define our personal relationship with plants. I think as much as we can educate and empower ourselves about the knowledge of plants, we're going to be healthier and navigate this world a little better for ourselves and for our families if we bring herbs into our lives.

This is something that I always harp on. I had an apothecary, The Paris Apothecary. I loved it tremendously in Paris, Virginia, but it closed during COVID. But my whole thing was like, get to know herbs when you're feeling good. Enjoy incorporating herbs into your life. It's like a friend, right? You don't just call your friend when you're upset. Well, maybe you do. But you also want to call them when you're having a good time, too. I think people find their way to herbs because of a health condition that they can't problem-solve. But it's pretty fun just to come to herbs for the fun of it. Then when you're in crisis, they're there for you. So I think there's a lot to be said about that. So herbs should be fun. It shouldn't be like, I don't want to take that tincture. It should be like, please, I want to feel better. Thank you. Or like, I just want to dip into something that makes my day a little bit brighter.

I love that you see this future visioning of reintegration and this continued reverence for plants as herbalism continues to grow worldwide, but definitely in North America, particularly in the United States. United Plant Savers is playing a really big role in supporting writing the story of endangered species and plant stewardship and conservation. United Plant Savers has an at-risk and to-watch list that intersects with endangered plants and the ethnobotanical history, the story they're telling about these plants. Can you speak a little bit about those lists and the plants that are on them?

Yeah. I mean, not long after United Plant Savers was founded, this idea of creating an at-risk list came to be, and the list really came together from people in the industry, wildcrafters, harvesters, growers, herb manufacturers, a list of plants that they were concerned about. That's the formation of the list. Since then, we've come up with an at-risk tool that's really user-friendly. It's just a series of questions that helps you rate each question, and then the higher the score, the more concern for the plant. These questions are based around what part of the plant is used. Is it the root? Is it the leaf? Is it the berry? Is it the flower? Obviously, if it's the root, it's got a higher score because that plant has got to start from ground zero to replenish its population. Then looking at, is the habitat unique? Does it only grow in a bog or a wetland? Or is there threats to that habitat? Then it looks at how high in demand that plant is. Really looking at all these factors helps you ask some questions when you're really looking to source a plant for an herbal product. I think, obviously, when you're out there harvesting by yourself, you're pretty aware of what's going on around you, and you're just taking what you need for yourself. But this is really in the context when you're buying plant material, and you don't have that experience of what that environment looked like when you harvested that plant. These are really good things to be aware of. I would say when possible, growing the plants you use is the best way. Though some plants are difficult to propagate and aren't realistic to propagate, and they may thrive from being harvested. It really depends. These are plants on our list that are good to familiarize yourself with and use as a guidepost when you're making decisions. Jane Bothwell did a really good overview of all the at-risk plants and plants that have similar properties that are more abundant that you could use instead. That's always a good list to consult. Actually, when you think about it, almost every plant's medicinal. I say every plant is medicinal on some level. You would be surprised how it's very easy to find alternative plants that are weedy and abundant that can serve often the same purpose of its healing property that may be easier to source, and you may be able to source locally. I also think bioregional herbalism is a big thing. Really seeking more plants that are in your region when you're looking to formulate or create medicine for yourself and your family or for a product line or for a business that you have. All these things are really important to think about when you're sourcing plants. It's a good... We constantly write articles about these plants. We constantly write articles in our journal about bioregional herbalism or stories from our members or things to be aware of. When you think about essential oils, it takes a tremendous amount of plant material to make an essential oil. So that's something to be really mindful of when you're using essential oils in your products. I don't think... United Plant Savers really isn't into shaming people into practices. We're not there to police or tell people what's right and wrong. We're really about putting good quality information and to get people talking about these issues and hopefully provide a place that's unbiased that people can dive into, because that's harder and harder to find. Because if we were a company and we were out there promoting our products, of course, we're going to tell you that they're sustainably sourced and all the keywords. But we are membership-based. We exist because people choose to become members of United Plant Savers. I feel like it's a super small ask to become a member and support our organization. One, because of all the resources and educational material that you get to help guide your herbalist journey, but also because it's the one organization that's holding this space. Of course, we have our sanctuary in Ohio where we propagate and do tons of educational programming to really teach people the skills they need to cultivate these plants. The conservation mindset that needs to happen really on a really broad landscape to support these ecosystems that support the plants that support us. I think this is a really great public service announcement. If you're not a member of United Plant Savers, you should absolutely consider joining, and we'll put the link in the chat for everyone to go check out all of the wonderful things that United Plant Savers is doing in the world and also the benefits that you get as a member.

Susan, you mentioned that UpS also has a plant sanctuary, and I know that this is part of the United Plant Savers mission, is to create botanical sanctuaries and allowing members to list their botanical sanctuaries through United Plant Savers. What are the features of a botanical sanctuary? Are they ethnobotanical classrooms? How could listeners get started cultivating one, too?

Yeah, I mean, it's really about intention because I feel like when you set an intention, then things just manifest into... And there's no right way or wrong way. There's no perfect application. It's really just three simple questions. What plants do you have growing there? What plants do you hope to be growing there? And how do you plan to use your sanctuary as an educational tool? Some people just want to be a sanctuary and not have classes and do things. Other people are doing the botanical sanctuary because it's a platform of which they can educate their community. There's no size requirement. It's really just the intention to want to create the space that you are passionate about as a botanical sanctuary. You can go online, you can look by state what sanctuaries are in your area. It's a great way to connect with other people that are passionate about conservation of native medicinal plants. We encourage sanctuaries to write articles in our journal. I mean, it's really just an unbelievable way to... It's like every sanctuary is different, every story is different, and it really depends on the intention behind creating that sanctuary. I think we're up to over 200 botanical sanctuaries, and there's a fee to apply, and that fee really just goes towards the work that we do on reviewing applications and then putting that information online. If people want their sanctuary to be online. That takes time and effort with our web designer. Then we send you a beautiful botanical sanctuary sign that you can put up, and then two other smaller signs that say no trespassing, this is a botanical sanctuary. We do sell those no trespassing signs on our website. But the botanical sanctuary sign is a really beautiful outdoor metal sign that people really love putting up on their property or in their community garden or sometimes group supply. It really can be anything. A lot of people are like, What do I have to do to get ready? You just have to decide this is something you want to do. In some cases, if it's a community group and they can't navigate the application fee, you can request to have the application fee waived. We don't want there to be a barrier to becoming a part of the botanical sanctuary. Of course, when you're a member, we do seed giveaways in the spring, we do root giveaways in the fall, where we offer roots and stuff to members. We do educational programs all the time, specifically around the space of forest farming and agroforestry. Even if you're not ready to become a member, sign up on our mailing list because we do so many programs that are highly subsidized to teach people the skills they need to propagate native medicinal plants. We're always doing events and programs that are very affordable at our sanctuary in Ohio and promoting other programs that we know about around the country.

United Plant Savers is truly doing such important work, and I'm so glad, Susan, that they have you on their side. One thing I want to ask you before we wrap up, are there any policy changes or cultural shifts that you would like to see to support the protection and stewardship of plants and how our audience can support this?

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there again. But one plant in particular, white sage, it's not necessarily endangered in the state of California. If you have not seen the short film, I believe it's What's Going On with White Sage, or I might have the name wrong. We'll put it in the chat. But it's a short film, like 15 minutes, that talks about the white sage trade, and there's really no regulation. That's the thing that I think there's very few regulations in regards to plants. There's CITES, Convention of International Trade of Endangered Species, that navigates where plants have to have special permits to do international trade, but there's nothing regulating domestic trade. It's very difficult to get a plant on CITES listing. We've been working really hard to get white sage listed because we do believe that the international trade is having a huge huge impact. White sage also grows in Mexico, and it's having a huge impact where plants are just being overharvested to the point that they're being destroyed in the natural environment. White sage really only grows in certain areas of California and Mexico. White sage can be cultivated very easily. What we really want to see is some certification or acknowledgement that white sage has been cultivated if it's going to be in trade. I don't think we're going to end the trade of white sage. But in particular, up near Etiwanda, which is really a huge preserve that's between LA and Palm Springs. It's the heart of the white sage mafia. Everybody sells it. Everybody puts it in their herb shop, and nobody says where that white sage came from or if it was grown. We can use culinary sage in the same way we can use white sage. If we are going to use white sage, we need to be growing it. You could grow it as an annual in a pot anywhere. It has very good seed germination. There is an endangered bee that survives off of the flowers of white sage. It's endangered because the white sage habitat has been so decimated due to the illegal harvesting of white sage on public lands. There's been lots of arrests in California, but it's been a struggle to get any state regulation in place. We've been really working hard to have white sage listed under the IUCN red listing in hopes that it'll have an impact on getting the global states that participate in the Convention of International Trade to consider CITES listing. But I feel like this is the stuff that you get into the weeds, and a lot of people don't have the bandwidth to dive into it. But that's just one example of a plant that we're really advocating for and have been working with the California Native Plant Society, different tribes in California to bring awareness. And yeah, Herbal Academy could do a free showing. Anyways, it's on YouTube. The film is on YouTube, and it's a great film that briefly dives into the issue of white sage.

I find it fascinating because, Susan, you're talking policy and the work that United Plant Savers, which is so very important, is doing in collaboration with others to facilitate the change in shift in the policy of white sage and getting this plant protected, but also the importance of the cultural side. We, us, the audience members, can all choose not to participate in that trade at this time unless we're ensured that it is cultivated because of the importance of protecting the species, not only for itself, but for the bees and for the tribes that have held reverence for it, and Indigenous people who hold that plant sacred. There's a lot of difficult realities with that because a lot of these companies who talk healing and have a good impact or presence in their websites and their photography that sell a lot of white sage. We get to utilize our purchase power in this way, right? Like not purchase it. Yeah, or ask good questions or grow it. I think it's a plant that's super special and one that I certainly love to grow and so unique, so fragrant, and such beautiful oils that come from white sage. But yeah, there's, I think, the current need for people wanting to connect with Native American culture and those elements, of course, it's like plant porn or something. You know what I mean? It's like lust. I should say plant lust. But yeah, it's like we can... Anyway, so that's one that we're working on. I think there's a pathway forward, but it's difficult to navigate. The whole conservation world is just collapsing within the lack of funding and support. It's really important that whether you support United Plant Savers or support causes in your local community, this is a really critical time to choose to just support a handful of organizations that you care deeply about in this moment.

Susan, we have already spoken about United Plant Savers' membership and the potential to cultivate your very own botanical sanctuary in partnership with United Plant Savers. We will link United Plant Savers in the chat, of course, but I would love to give you an opportunity to tell us anything more about United Plant Savers and ways that people can support or donate to the organization, any events that's coming up, or anything that you want to highlight.

Yeah, thanks. We're just wrapping up a big eventful filled fall. Another thing I'll just talk briefly about is that we have the Brickhouse Apothecary, which is in Pomeroy, about 10 minutes from the sanctuary, and we're building this unbelievable botanical library. We've had several donations from different herbalists. It really started with Jim Duke's library. We named that the DEA, the Duke Ethnobotanical Archives, which was funny play on words. You can go online and read about the archive and explore the different collections. Then people can book a stay at the Brickhouse and come do research. We're really looking ahead. We really want to be the Lloyd Library of the East with these modern collections and tell this story of herbalism and be a place where people can come and do research. We have an art fellowship program as well. There's lots of ways we encourage people to come and visit the sanctuary. We are in a time of transition, as always, and we're working on building a conservatory. That's pretty exciting. And to expanding our ability to host more people for overnight capacity at the sanctuary, so stay tuned. I feel like in this day and age of so much online education, which is great because we can reach people wherever they're at, United Plant Savers is definitely the destination in-person place where you can come and really get your hands dirty and get into the woods and the prairie and get to know these plants in a very individual way. We're excited about the future offerings. Then hopefully, by having people come stay and doing more programs, we can then take those funds in a sustainable way and put it more out there into action, seed saving or seed bank, and doing more of the work that can be difficult to fund.

This is all so exciting. I love hearing these updates, Susan. A conservatory and this Brickhouse apothecary sound absolutely amazing, and of course, a continuation of the important work that United Plant Savers is doing in this world. Thank you so much for this time, for your teachings and sharing your wisdom with us today, Susan.

You're welcome. Happy to be here.