Transcription
Jamie Diamond is the CEO of JP Morgan Chase, this nation's largest bank. He's also connected to many of the wealthy and powerful in New York and here in Washington, where we spoke with Diamond in the JP Morgan offices on the occasion of an annual letter in which he gives his opinions about almost everything.
Thanks for welcoming us here. It's good to be here.
Thank you. Thanks for Thanks for coming here.
Uh and I read your letter. It's really compelling. I just yeah absolutely every page uh it is more interesting than the average corporate document because you have opinions on many topics and that's my first question. Why do you feel you should as a CEO be speaking out on topics all across the news when you probably could stay silent?
Yeah. So it's very important. So I when I do these letters I think to myself what's important to the company? What's important to our employees? What's important to our shareholders? I actually make a list of questions. Talk to people. I want to answer the big important questions and the thing you're asking about most of it's about the company but the last section which is about America and the world I always say it's predicated upon the fact that if America doesn't do well JP Morgan will have a real hard time doing well and that we have a deep interest in that and the second reason is that you know policy you we shouldn't I'm not saying that government can't do we shouldn't rely on government alone collaboration works okay collaboration works in Detroit it worked in World War II it worked in all these things so I think it's good for business to get involved to bring their expertise to bear to help all the citizens of this country and that helps the country and your company.
Do you assume that the interests of the country are about the same as the interests of your company?
No. No. But I think that we have common interest so that you know we all if all of our citizens do better we'll all do better. I think a lot of people come to Washington tons of special interest groups. I think there like 17,000 lobbying organizations and they all fight for them stuff. I'm kind of more in the camp that we should also fight what's good for the country. If the country grew faster, we'd all be better off. And you people talk about polarization and things that don't work. I also think it is our job to lift up all our citizens. That is what we should do. We should be civic-minded, not just, you know, about our ourselves. And so, um, and banks have been doing that for years. If you go to, actually, a lot of companies have been doing that for years as part of just the normal culture. Sometimes it's local, sometimes it's national. The business round table here gets involved in public policy that's good for the country, not the public policy that's good for banks or private equity or chemical companies or pharmaceutical companies or movie companies. And I think we need to do more of that. What's good for the country?
One of many things you comment on is the war in Iran. You talk about geopolitical risk. It's right up there. I know that you've said in recent days that you approve generally of the idea of the war to attack a threat in Iran. I'd like to know though what you think of the president's leadership in the war and particularly his recent threats to bomb Iran back to the stone age to use his words.
I'm not going to comment on that, but I want to put this in a broader context.
The most important thing that we can do is make sure the world is safe for democracy and it's being challenged today in Ukraine, Iran, North Korea, somewhat by China. I think that is probably the most critical issue. What world are we going to have the next 40 50 years? This is a part of that. So I'm not I was I'm not supporting and not supporting what I pointed out in my letter is, you know, people talk about being an imminent threat. It's not a threat. They've been killing and murdering innocent people, including innocent Americans, you know, for 47 years. They have missiles, ballistic missiles that can go 3,000 miles and they clearly are trying to develop nuclear capability. I agree with the concept. They can't be allowed to have nuclear capability. And so that's why I'm saying I'm not an expert in it. I don't know all the choices they have. I know the military is exceptional. I don't know what their plan B, their plan C is. I'm simply pointing out that it it's you got to look at that risk as being an enormous risk for mankind. And so, uh, so I want I hope we prevail. And, uh, so and I I know it causes other problems in society and, you know, the cost of fuel, the cost of oil. I I completely understand. I'm quite sympathetic to that, but this is a really important subject that has to be properly dealt with eventually.
What are the economic risks, which is your area of expertise, of the potential destruction of this war? As we're talking, the president has just had a press conference and talked about destroying Iranian power plants. The Iranians have talked about destroying infrastructure in response. The economic blast radius could even be bigger than it has been.
Yeah. No. So again, I'm stepping morality from you talking about economics. I think the morality may be more important uh than free and safe world may be more important. And that's hard to understand. You know, we did that in World War II. You get paid tremendous sacrifices but economically you know there's tons of uncertainty and I list like tons of them out there not just these wars but obviously they can cause help they usually ends up in some form of recession you know recession is unemployment it could be stackflation infl recession which is the worst it could be you know where it pushes inflation down it could be short I don't know it may not happen at all so I'm not saying it's going to happen I just think it increases the odds of bad e economic outcomes and we should just be cleareyed about that to be cleareyed.
Is there some way to measure the economic damage of this war?
So far, I think the best way to look at it so far is that, you know, people here are paying more for gas and might end up paying more for food and uh um but if it ends up in the right place, you know, you got to look at that quite carefully. So, I don't know yet.
You don't know yet?
I don't know yet.
Uh do you have in mind a worst case scenario and a best case scenario?
No, I think the worst case is that somehow we don't get control of the straits or removes that that we have to back out that oil and gas that Iran doesn't give up and oil and gas prices go even higher today. That's probably the worst case scenario and the best case is that they that they negotiate something where they don't build nuclear weapons. The straits of Hermuz opened up uh and we go back to a more peaceful world.
Listening to your worst case, I think I hear you saying as a citizen the United States has to win this. that losing it would be
I I don't want to go that far because you're that's putting words in my mouth. I don't know what all the potential outcomes are and neither do you. Okay. So,
fair enough.
We all after the fact would be having strong opinions. In hindsight, even hindsight is not perfect. I say even in hindsight, you don't know history. I point out my letter that we're still analyzing what happened in World War I.
Without a doubt, right? Without a doubt. There's a thing that's happening in real time that's particularly interesting and that relates to the financial markets. The president regularly has made statements about this war and other issues that have moved the markets. Now, that's normal. You've been around a long time. Every president moves the markets, but they've been quite sudden, quite frequent, quite dramatic, and sometimes there is news suggesting that someone profited in the moments when that happened. What do you think about when you watch that?
I look, I have to deal with the world of God. So, I'm I don't spend that much time worrying about it. I think if people are profiting, that's bad. Uh, I think, you know, when the president changes his mind, I don't think it's always a bad thing. You know, he wants to do X, doesn't work that well, he tries something different, that's okay. So, I don't look at that as a terrible terrible thing. And I think they've learned, you know, he he was president years ago, he's president now. I think they've learned what works and what doesn't work. And so, I hope I hope what he does works. You know, some of that causes a confusion.
And in fact, this great lesson for those you look at the market like you could see that words of a president matter. And you know, presidents are careful. This president's less careful. He's also willing to stand up there, take questions, and change his mind.
What do you think about people who are either profiting in those moments or frantically buying and selling based based on whatever the president just said?
I don't know. I profiting illegally should be against the law. You know, like I like for us, any insider information that you trade on, whether you trade in securities or trade in the prediction markets, we told our people that is against the law. is certainly against JP Morgan policy. You know, people who just speculate on this stuff, that's different. That's just some form of gambling and I defend your right to gamble.
Um, you say in this letter, as you've said elsewhere, the fact that the United States remains the safest investment in the world, especially in tough times. That seems true to this day. And yet at the same time I as a layman have observed that the interest rate that is charged on US Treasury bonds has gone up and up and up several percentage points in the last few years. Are we collectively doing something that erodes confidence in the United States?
Yeah. Again I want to put this a little bit of context and I I really do mean what I'm about to say to your listener viewer. If we opened up our borders, billions of people move here. They want to be American. They want to be American because the values of America and when if you if you say and I also mean this true if you're can only invest all your money in one country and that's true for anyone around the world what country would it be? This country is defended by the Atlantic Pacific, our military, the rule of law, our courts, our un unbelievable innovative system. It doesn't mean it does doesn't have flaws. So when interest rates are going up generally there's two there I mean I hate to overgeneralize but it's because some people think they're inflationary pressures and there are some deficit spending you know oil gas that depending how long this war goes on if it if it ends quickly you know that can adjust rather quickly uh and then also deficit financing you know we have a lot of deficit financing and I think the world looks at that and you know questions it and then and the whole world is doing it by the way you know our deficit actually happens to be the I think the largest in the world like 6% of GDP and we're going to eventually have to deal with that. I don't know that's going to be a problem but I think those are the reasons you have you know uh the dollar the tenure rates going up.
What are the risks if we don't deal with the federal and we're talking here just for the layman the federal budget deficit the federal government borrowing more every year than they spend.
So uh you know the best way to deal with the problem is to actually deal with the problem to acknowledge it to work on it. You know, years ago, we had a solution, the Simpson Balls Commission. It didn't get done. I wish it had gotten done. It would have been a home run for all of Americans, and it would have resolved some of these issues. So, we have 60% of our our spending. I think our spending is like six trillion almost $4 trillion is set in stone. You know, it's Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security. I think we should work on it, but I don't know. And again, I don't think anyone can predict does it become a real problem in six months, six years. I don't know. I do know it will become a problem and the way it would exhibit itself is volatile markets rates going up uh you know the kind of the bond vigilantes the people not wanting to buy United States treasury still will still be the best economy but there'll be not want to own US treasuries so we should deal with it sooner than sooner than later maybe
and and if it that if it gets done that way it'll be kind of crisis management which we'll get through it it's just not the right way to do it maybe uh you're partly answering that question when are we going to know when we borrowed too much when we've gone beyond the point of no return.
You usually rates going up and volatility in the marketplace.
You come to Washington a lot. You talk with a lot of powerful people. It seems to me as a layman that um people when they're out of power are concerned about deficits and when they're in power they cease to be concerned about deficits.
I think there's truth to that. I mean this hasn't neither Democrats or Republicans have really focused on this for a while. It comes up all the time and you talk and you walk the halls of Congress. I mean, almost everyone knows. It's just we haven't had the will yet to actually deal with it. And it's unfortunate because it can end up with a real problem worse than it would otherwise have been. Good policy is free. And if we grew at 3% and not 2% that number debt to deficit was the deficit start going down and the debt to GDP would start going down. And yet
you're saying if the economy grew at 3% 3%.
And I think if we had good policy, which I mentioned in my letter what that might be, education and immigration and certain regulation stuff like that, we can grow 3%. We should aspire to 3%. We can do probably even better than that. You know, this is the most innovative nation the world's ever seen. And so I think we should focus a little bit in that to solve the problem too, not just raise taxes or cut expenditures.
I want to ask about another kind of borrowing by private companies. Five giant tech firms that are called the hyperscalers. They're building out data centers and other things for more and more AI. You note in your letter they borrowed $450 billion last year. They're borrowing $750 billion this year. When would we know when that is too much and leading to a crisis?
Yeah, it's hard to tell. So, we have, you know, we've had huge investments like that before. This may be the largest ever if you compare it you know some of our economies have done that to other you know the interstate highway program and internet or electricity railroads and the
these are fast now the the total capex in the country is like two and a half trillion so it's a big part of that but it's not unbelievable
capital expenditure
capital expenditures how much companies invest in the United States and so I don't know I don't look I look at it if you look at AI in total okay we're not going to know who all the winners are how much is too much we might overspend a little bit but AI itself has huge potential and the use of it is going up very quickly very dramatically and the greater context of stuff and I think there's important for the younger viewers here I think it's going to cure certain cancers I think it'll save a lot of people you know highway deaths I think it's come with composite materials and make planes safer it may came up come up with solutions for for pollution and climate so I that is the good good thing and and it may reduce the work week you know 20 30 40 years from now So there's good things. You can also focus on the potential negative ones. There's both. It's not just one.
Of those things you mentioned, the most interesting one to me was your suggestion that we might have a three and a half day work week someday.
Uh as opposed to firing a lot of people, which is the other scenario, that people would work less and maybe still be paid or paid the same amount or paid more.
but the firing scenario seems like the most obvious one to a lot of people. What makes you think the shorter work week would be the way that companies would grow?
I wouldn't I wouldn't make that the solution. I think that you know people can adopt AI to do a better job for the customers and if it does a better job for the GDP the country will grow.
I think the risk you're talking about is that and there are a lot of jobs out there today. Okay. Well-paying blue collar jobs, well-paying white collar which are open cyber and AI and welding and electric and all things like that. So I think the the question we should ask is what and most other major technology innovations came in slowly. It took you know 10 15 20 years for cars and electricity and even the internet. The internet in total paid off. It just you don't know who the winners and losers were but it didn't change jobs that much.
If and I'm saying if this changes jobs too much here's what we all should do. We in government business and government relocate income assistance early retirement maybe reduce the work week a little bit. uh you know not mandate it you know let the system work the system will adjust eventually I just think if you look at the history of uh you know developed nations we went from working six and a half days a week to six days a week to 5 and a half days a week to 5 days a week to 12 hours a day to 10 hours a day to 8 hours a day I do think that there's a good chance it'll be three and a half days a week and uh in many years they'll be living wonderful lives and as you could say that, you know in Europe they're already working four days a week.
What do you think about when somebody says on NPR as they did the other day, one of the risks here, one of the goals here is to replace almost everybody's job.
I I don't like that. I don't think that's going to happen. And there a lot of jobs are not replaceable and you're going to wake up in the morning, you're still going to have to eat something and go somewhere and go hiking and talk to people and need shrinks and all there are tons of jobs. I mean, I just and and even to build these data centers, you're talking about tons of labor, uh, engineers, people who are building the stuff, cement, steel, servers. So, there's a lot of jobs, the the econom
building whole towns next to new data,
whole towns, and this this will adjust over time. They really question if it goes too fast to have the adjustment we had in prior large technological advances. That's the real question. And we're starting to really think about what society should do to deal with that if it happens.
Um, is AI going to eliminate a lot of entry-level jobs?
I don't know yet. I I I don't know because we're still going to need people who paint clients. So, you know, what it may very well do is change what that entry- level job is. You know, a lot of those entry- level jobs are a lot of paperwork. They'll be eliminated. And you can say, well, then you can do less people. Maybe, but I also need those people to call in clients. So, that job may change. You know, the job may IBM is doing something really neat. They're hiring as many young people, but a lot more of them are AI experts. They've been using AI kind of their AI native. They started with AI. So there may be jobs that we're doing so they can train people and one day they can go, you know, be the client exec, you know, covering a a large global client.
Is something like that happening at JP Morgan
a little bit? We've always done what I call redeployment. You know, we've always been, you know, jobs are going up and going down. We always say, "Hey, Steve, we really like you. You know, here's some a whole bunch of other jobs." You know sometimes it there's no fit or you don't want to you want to retire but other times yeah we retrain you move to another job. So you know there are people in our branches who in the mortgage business there are people in the mortgage business you used to be in the branches there are people who want to do different things and so one of the things that Jour do is offer you great opportunities in life you know in the United States sometimes around the world and I think people the next generation will probably have a lot more jobs changes in their career than we've had in ours.
There is a line in your letter that I want to try to decipher for someone like me. I think you're telling me that asset prices, things like stocks and real estate and so forth, are grossly overpriced. The actual language is that they're more valuable relative to the economy than they were before the 2008 financial crisis. What's happening?
Yeah, there are a lot of ways to measure asset prices. So, you know, one is PE ratio, price to earnings ratios. One is the total in Warren Buffett's favor. One is the total value of stocks to the GDP. I put something like that in my letter.
Yeah.
What I said is they're at the they're they're not as high as they've ever been, but they're in that upper 15% or something like that. And then credit spreads for debt are kind of low. They're not the lowest they've ever been. So, what I'm pointing out is that that is not in and of itself bad, but it creates a risk if things go south. That's what I'm pointing out. That, you know, you can have a quick quicker adjustment asset prices.
Do I need to be prepared for my pension fund or my home value drastically?
I think you should always be intelligently invested. I mean, you know, if if you're 100% in stocks, I'd say yeah, you should have something in something more conser I'm a little more conservative. I have, you know, short-term investments and I obviously have a lot of JP Morgan. Uh, but yeah, you should always be thoughtful about how you invest your money and you should always not assume it's going to go up forever or go down forever. You know, people make mistakes when they overreact, when they overconentrate, you know, like buy five stocks. Yeah.
Um, so
you also say cities need to compete.
Yeah.
And you've said this before, but what is distinct here is that you name exactly one city.
Yeah.
It's your hometown, New York City,
and you talk about their high tax rates. What, if anything, is your message to your mayor, Zoran Mamdani?
Yeah, it wasn't meant just for him. It was answering a question I get asked by a lot of people. You know, we just built a new headquarters there, which is extraordinary. And we try to take very good care care of our people. Individuals compete, cities compete, companies compete, countries compete. That is not me guessing. That is the truth. And when I grew up, when I was younger, you know, Singapore wasn't a great city, London wasn't a great city. You know, Nashville wasn't a great city. Detroit wasn't. And and I I was reminded that in New York City, 60 of the Fortune 500, they had 120. 60 left in the 70s.
This is a bad time for the
bad they're going bankrupt. But today, New York City's got some wonderful. And if I was any mayor, I'd make a list of strengths and weaknesses. You know, it's got arts, it's got Broadway, it's got restaurants, it's got, you know, it's a melting pot. It's got brains. It's got financial. It's got media. All great. It also has the highest individual rates, the highest corporate rates, the highest estate tax rates, and that tends to drive people out if you want to be competitive. So, it's people vote with their feet. And then I point out in there that that this happened before. It's happened to other cities. is happening to California in general today. And that's not because that's not a moral statement. That's an actual what's actually happening and why is it happening? And so, you know, that's what people should do is think about those things. And any mayor should think about how do you fix that? And most of what mayors have to worry about is sanitation, crime, schools, hospitals, uh things like that that make living standards better for the people of the city.
Have you spoken or had the opportunity to speak with Mayor Mani about this? He wants to raise taxes further.
Yeah, let him do what he wants. I mean, he can try. He could do whatever he want, whatever whatever his rights are. I'm not going to worry about it.
Does he he say hello to you? Does he reach out?
I have not. I've spoke I spoke to him right if he got elected. Uh um, you know, if he if he wants to call me, I'd be happy to help figure out how he can do things. It doesn't mean I'm going to agree with him, but um I'm interested in what you think of the results so far in that Manny has not raised taxes. He certainly tried. He just hasn't gotten it done yet. Uh but it seems that services are getting done. There are all kinds of stories about potholes being filled. How's he doing?
I don't know yet. I'm going to res reserve my judgment in that. And I just also I want to point out I'm my my real loyalty is to my country, not to my city.
Okay? So I'm a New Yorker by birth. I'm a Yankee fan, but I'm not going to do bad things for my country because of my city. I I just want to be a little careful with that because very often people say, "How come you're not more loyal?" Well, there's a lot of reasons. I'm much more loyal to my country.
You also point out that you now as a company have more employees in Texas than in New York.
Yeah. But
why?
Because they're hugely hospitable. And you know, Florida's going down. You see a lot of people moving to Texas and Florida, both individuals and companies. And uh uh so Texas is it's a melting pot. Tech. When I first started working in Texas, it didn't have opera. It didn't have the restaurants it has today. It didn't have, you know, it's got some wonderful universities. And then it's conducive to business. The mayor calls you up. they you need a big plot of land. They'll change the bus lanes for you. They do a whole bunch of things. And I think their tax rates are very low, both corporate and individual. So, people want to work there. Uh and so that's why
could you envision your company doing as Elon Musk has and relocating the headquarters to Texas?
I I would do whatever is right for my company.
You would abandon that tower.
I would do whatever is right for my company. I'm not saying I'd abandon the tower. I'm just saying I don't think our headcount is going to you know that dramatically that we wouldn't fill that tower but you know it could in 10 or 15 years you know people bad things happen I mean you know we had you know I remember you know Detroit unemployment hit 25% you know the population went from 2 million to 700,000 you know and again and this new mayor has done an unbelievable job mayor Dougen you know what he did to save that city is extraordinary and it was all collaboration business civic society schools teaching people advanced manufacturing, getting anyone who can help them. It's it should be studied. They should write case studies about it. He turned the city by that attitude. I was running for a governor as of Michigan on the independent ticket.
You recently put out a thing about the American dream.
Yeah.
Saying that your company wanted to support that. I don't want to make you talk all about it again, but it's everything from home ownership to improving healthcare. Uh but I'd like a basic definition from you.
Yeah.
What is it? What is the American dream?
Yeah. And I also point out to kind of a universal dream. Home ownership, uh, health, uh, jobs, skills, wages, uh, less crime. Um, that's the American dream. That's the dream for most people. Have a a good life, you know, and, uh, a safe life. And so, and we've always been financing the American dream. Small business formation. There are 30 million small businesses in this country. We bank 7 million. uh so frustrating in that and the reason it's so important is that it has frayed for a lot of people and I think it's wrong I mean I think it's part of our job to say what did we do wrong that you know a third of the population or 25% their wages effectively didn't go up like everybody else's for years and almost for 15 or 20 years depending how you look at it and a lot of those folks also go to neighborhoods where their their schools don't work so most of the people in a lot of neighborhoods their schools work fine their neighborhoods have more crime they have more less social outcome uh so what do do and so I what I try to be is here's what we are going to do here's what we're going to do for small business but I give three really important suggestions there okay one is schools I think schools should be evaluated I'm talking about high schools community colleges and even colleges on outcome the outcome being what job do you get and kind of what does it pay and because you could teach kids there's I give one example but there are hundreds around the country where there are kids in not far from I grew up in Jackson Ice Queens their kids go to aviation in high school. High school. They teach you high school. They also teach you how to maintain a Sesna aircraft. They travel sometimes one or two hours each way by subway. Their mom and dads want them to go uh and they learn how to maintain the hydraulic system, electrical system, the engine system of Sesna. 95% graduate making 75,000 plus a year. They could be 17 years old. That's what they should be doing. So way way back when a school taught you how to read and write, that kind of was the ticket. So now it's not you know we so we have to and there's schools in cyber and aviation program management hotel administration tons of these things that people are going to need. So outcomes they should be certificates they should count for college degrees they should all those various things that is would be an unbelievable thing that would drive uh jobs skills and wages
is the economy almost moving too quickly for education to be organized that way.
No, because I think if you were we already spend a trillion dollars or something in K to2. So I would so every high if you were a principal of a high school you should be thinking every year what should I add and what should I subtract. So now you may be saying I need less coding but I need more cyber I need more AI because of all these building we're doing we need more skilled trades. Unions do an excellent job teaching people skilled trades. those jobs 100,000 a year, $120,000 a year and they're not, you know, they're not pounding just nails in. They're actually ma managing equipment. If you go to these I've been to some of these advanced manufacturing schools, you know, you and I would have to spend the 12 weeks how to how to [clears throat] manage that piece of machine tooling thing. And so, no, they're that's what they should be doing. That is their job. And so, the second thing I suggest in there is the earning of them tax credit.
Yeah. If you are a single parent making I think $18,000 a year, the government gives you $7,000 at the end of the year. And if you with two children, if you have no children, they give you like 600. I would get rid of the child requirement. I would probably double the earned income tax credit. If you were making 18, the government will give you 14. I would make it like more like a negative income tax. It comes in monthly. And the reason I like it so much is it it
it you give the money to the people directly who need it. It's not going through government programs lecturing you what you should be doing with it. For the most part, it's going to be used to help their families, schools, health, tutoring, you know, fixing their car, all those things. It'll be spent locally, so it actually be spent in those neighborhoods that need some of the help. Yeah.
Uh and it has it great social outcome. So every study ever read less recidivism, less crime, less suicide, less depression, more household formation, and you're incentive people to work. So, it I think it would actually be a home run and Paul Ryan supports it, Democrats support, Republican support. I just I think it would be better than most other programs. So, um
I'm thinking as you're talking of Alexandria Casiocortez, your fellow New Yorker who uh has been on NPR, it was last year, and she said a lot of people feel increasingly that everything is a scam, that they're being ripped off. What would you say to people who think that the people you deal with, people in your class, uh, the very successful, wealthy people in this country have lost sight of the national interest are not taking care of the country.
Yeah, I I I think that's a kind of a broad statement and
it's a broad statement, but it's made in both parties, but in different ways.
Well, I think there are people who don't care. I mean, there are people who don't care who are not wealthy and people who don't care who are wealthy. I I personally don't like those kind of people. So you know I don't think that proportion is that different than it was 10 years ago or 40 years ago 80 years ago. And and the other thing which I always point out is that very often people look at quote capitalism and say well these are bad greedy people but there are bad greedy people in communism.
Sure. They're in every institution. I'm not supporting it. I think it's bad. It's not the reason we have flaws. We have a lot of flaws. Like I can point out policy flaws. I already mentioned education. Yeah. You know, I can I make I make a hold of this permitting certain regulations hurt mortgages. The the regulations that hurt mortgages, and I would agree with AOC. I hope you can help me on this. If we fix those regulations, mortgages would be a lot more affordable for a $200,000 home. If we fix some of the affordable housing stuff and you could build more affordable homes, you'd create a lot more homes, starter homes. the people would buy buy those homes would be able to get a mortgage and they'd leave be leaving rental units, you know, which would reduce the price of rental for the the people who need the rental. And so there's so many things we can do to make this country better, faster, healthier, and help everybody.
I want to note that you turned 70 recently.
Yeah.
Is there something you've learned in those many years that you wish you knew when you were 30? Say,
I'm I'm you know, I grew up with the same values. is, you know, my parents, my grandparents were Greek immigrants, didn't finish high school. The values was to have a purpose in life, treat everyone well, do the best you can, leave the world a better place. And that's that hasn't changed. Obviously, I've learned some stuff like when I was 30, like anger doesn't help. Okay? Like making big decisions on a Friday when you're tired is a really bad idea. So, [laughter] I can give you tons of lessons like that. I always call them lessons learned and relearned. I still make some of those mistakes, unfortunately.
You said a purpose. What's your purpose?
To to make the world a better place. You know, I I uh and you know, and purpose when you know when they say on the cover annual report this year, it's the 250th anniversary, the Statue of Liberty, American flag, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. When they said the pursuit of happiness, they didn't mean happiness like we mean happiness. Oh, are you happy? Do you feel good? They meant purpose. That purpose could be an artist, politician, reporter, you know, business person. Uh, you could be just a caregiver, a mother. You know, there's a great oped that someone wrote that who would won who would receive the Medal of Honor saying 50 years later they realized that some of those people who day in and day out helped other human beings that they are the real heroes that they never gave up and they did it through, you know, health and sickness and things like that. So that's the purpose. You made the world a better place in the way you can contribute.
Jamie Diamond, it's a pleasure talking with you again. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Pleasure was mine. Thank you.
All right. New episodes of Newsmakers can and will publish at any time. Stay caught up, follow or subscribe to this program wherever you watch. I'm Steve Ensky. Thanks for joining us on NPR's Newsmakers.