Transcription
Welcome to another episode of Safer Communities Canada podcast, where we have brave, authentic conversations with leaders and people with lived experiences. We are very excited today to have our special guest, Sarah Tessier, in the house. And me, being one of your co-hosts, Arvana Zad, executive director here at YCE, and my co-host today, Tanisha Evans, program lead for the New Narrative Initiative here at Yay.
So we always start out with a short bio of our guest, and then we kind of will delve into the conversations. So Sarah Tessier is a dedicated social justice advocate with nearly decades of experience championing the rights of marginalized, victimized, criminalized, and institutionalized individuals across Canada. With a foundation in lived experiences, Sarah has worked tirelessly with numerous organizations such as John Howard Society, Elizabeth Fry Mainland Nova Scotia, and Coverdale Justice Society in YCE, providing crucial support to those transitioning out of provincial jails, particularly during the challenging times of the COVID-19 pandemic, which we know was rough for everybody.
In her roles now as an outreach worker for the Gate Program, a peer mentor with CDALE—that's not her role now, sorry, I'll take that back, I just restate that and we cut that—in her role as an outreach worker for the Gate Program, a peer mentor with CDALE, and a peer support training facilitator with the Seven-Step Society, Sarah demonstrated her commitment to empowering individuals by offering guidance, mentorship, and practical assistance. Now, in her current role as the impact director for formerly incarcerated persons at the North Pine Foundation, Sarah's focus is on facilitating the successful reintegration of individuals exiting the Canadian prison system. This is where we met, and our work really aligns well with here at YCE. Our work encompasses a wide range of initiatives, including providing access to legal services, affordable housing, post-secondary education, health care, and employment opportunities. And through these strategic partnerships that she curates all across Canada, financial support, expert guidance, and all the other various forms of support, she collaborates and brings together the stakeholders to design unique ventures that are innovative and foster meaningful relationships and contribute to a healthier and more inclusive Canada. Which, in the long term, not only solves problems but also leads to a lot of savings in taxpayers' dollars.
Beyond her professional endeavors, Sarah is really influential in her many advisory roles and board memberships in numerous organizations. We're going to learn a little bit about that as we tap into the questions. And she's a prolific writer and speaker on various topics, including prison issues, carceral law, advocacy, human rights, sexual violence, reproductive justice, LGBTQ issues, and mental health. And through her multifaceted efforts, she continues to make significant contributions to advancing social justice and empowering marginalized communities across Canada. And I know this bio doesn't do her justice, so thank you for being here, and we hope to bring out the rest through our conversations.
Thank you very much for inviting me. [Music]
Today, so my first question to you would be, can you share your journey on what inspired you to become a social justice advocate?
Absolutely. So I never, in my wildest dreams, ever thought I would be in this position. And that's because, since I was knee-high to a grasshopper, my goal in life was to be a police officer. CU, I used to watch Chips, and Erik Estrada was my like all-time hero. Yes, I just dated myself. I'll be 50 on Friday, if you don't know, Google it, YouTube it. So um, Chell was my hero, and it really was because I wanted to be able to arrest my father because, you know, he was abusing me and selling me in the sex trade and things since I was very young until I was a teenager. And um, so a lot of maladaptive behaviors came about, um, especially, you know, I truly believe that society failed me in so many ways because when I was eight and I tried to say something, he shot himself, and the courts gave me back to him two years later. He didn't pass away, and so that just goes to show that, you know, no matter how many times the child reaches out, they're often not believed, or uh, you know, it's just brushed under the rug because the system's not designed to be able to um help people. I was bounced around from different foster homes because they just had no place to put me. They eventually ended up shipping me off to Minneapolis for six months to a youth treatment center because they had no foster homes for me. So yeah, so those maladaptive behaviors that were instilled uh and that I learned for through my survival led me to my offense uh path, where I committed some armed robberies just to be cool because some guys told me that they did it and got away with it, and I wanted to do better than them. Uh, so I spent five years inside prison on an eight-year sentence. And during that time, I really deep-dived into why I had these maladaptive behaviors and what can I do to learn the proper skills and tools that I needed to change. I wasn't able to sustain the kind of livelihood I wanted. Um, you know, I had great friends that were professionals and lawyers and doctors, and I was traveling all over the world and stuff, but I never felt I deserved it or fit in. And so that, you know, I really needed to find out what what I needed to do to change. So I took dialectical behavior therapy, and it was great. I—and what is that for our readers who don't know what that what that is?
So dialectical behavior therapy is composed of four components, which is mindfulness, so you learn mindfulness skills; uh, distress tolerance, so you learn skills to deal with uh distress; uh, emotion regulation—mine was non-existent. I'd go zero to 10.3—everything, the slightest little change would set me off, and I'd get angry and violent because I didn't know how to to handle anything; and then the last one is interpersonal effectiveness, which teaches you how to interact with others. And and that's when they kicked me out was I when I got to that module because I was articulate, they thought I was just trying to learn ways to manipulate people further instead of the change that I was really looking for. So I started working inside the prison as a pure legal advocate for CAVE. I was trained, and it really showed me the injustices that were going on and that people really didn't have the capacity to be a voice for themselves and advocate for themselves. And that's why so many uh injustices and inhumane practices were happening. And so I did that, and I studied for my LSAT. I was released January 9th, 2020, wrote my LSAT, um um, and then well I was working in community with different organizations—John Howard, Elizabeth Fry, Coverdale Justice Society—um, and then I saw this posting for North Point, and I sent it off to my dear friend, Sender Kim Pate, and I said, "Do you think I'd be good at this?" Because I still wasn't confident in myself. I didn't think I was worth anything or had any value to add. And she said, "I'm writing you a letter of recommendation right now," which was two pages long, and it just it put me in tears. Um, so I got the job with North Point, and I was able to be on this completely different platform where I'm able to go across Canada and help uh in in in, you know, more systemic way where we can work together with organizations to help people reintegrate successfully back into society. And so that's what I do now.
Wow. I mean, thank you so much for being vulnerable right off the bat with our first question uh and modeling, you know, vulnerability as a form of strength. I think the stories are so powerful, and people are able to connect with that. And I had a follow-up question to that because, you know, I think uh we we talk quite a bit around incarceration or even here at Yay supporting folks who are formerly incarcerated. Can you talk—us, you know, you talked about validation—like, can you take us through the psyche of, you know, how was it when you first started or, you know, your first year of being incarcerated compared to now, going through that therapy and, you know, trying to kind of figure out who you are, what the future looks like? Like, walk us through—someone who has no idea what incarceration might be, particularly um, you know, not as a male.
Yeah. So I mean, the very first thing that happens, and I think this is very important for people to recognize and acknowledge, is that the very first thing that happens when you walk through those doors of a prison is you're strip-searched. And when you're looking at somebody like me with a traumatic past with uh sexual abuse and violence, um, it's—itself—reported that 83% of women incarcerated have been sexually abused or assaulted at some point in their lives.
And can you repeat that stat, 'cause that's a very high number?
83%, and that's only self-reported, which means we believe the numbers to be higher than that. And it's not much different for men as well. You know, a lot of men come from—and it's even more stigmatized, and it's even more um, you know, not as open and talked about when it comes to men, which is, you know, really sad. It's a bit of a taboo topic, right?
Exactly. So when when you're taking somebody and you're immediately traumatizing them again, and let's admit it, sexual sexual assault is non-consensual sexual contact, uh, sexual uh, you know, comments. You know, so you tell me, do you think that being strip-searched is consensual? So let's call it what it is: it's a form of sexual assault, and we need to put a stop to that, especially considering statistics show and research shows that it doesn't even reduce the amount of contraband that comes into the prison. So that's just upon entrance, you know, that was just part one. That was just part one. That was just the first 10 minutes of your stay. Um, so you're you're thrown into an environment where, you know, you're with very vulnerable people, and you know, so there's a lot of different mental health issues, there's substance abuse issues, there's people who've been, you know, traumatized, people with PTSD, people are triggered easily, people with zero emotion regulation like myself or or the ability to to handle any form of distress. So you're in an environment with that's concentrated with these these vulnerable people and marginalized people that, you know, of course it's going to be exacerbated. And then, of course, that, you know, if you're having issues, you're scared to say, you know, "I'm feeling vulnerable," or "I feel, you know, like harming myself, myself. I don't feel like I should exist," you know, which is very common, then because then they throw you into a segregation unit with nothing on except a paper gown. You have to eat finger food; you can't even have their rubber sporks, and they—you're watched 24 hours a day on camera. And you know, it wasn't too long ago, just a couple years ago, where it was leaked where a guard who had an individual who was vulnerable on suicide watch in a in a cell in in a correctional provincial facility in in Nova Scotia, he leaked the video onto uh his Snapchat or something, and his friend saw it and reported it because they were making fun of this vulnerable person who was crying out for help and calling her, you know, all kinds of derogatory names and and stuff. And so that's the kind of treatment that people don't see that happens inside the prisons. And even furthermore to that is, you know, we're looking at a system that has full power and control over vulnerable individuals, and not everybody is in there for the right reasons. And a prime example of that is the guard Brian Wilson, who was sexually assaulting many, many women, including myself, until I was was able to put a stop to that, you know. And so these are the things that happen that society doesn't see.
Yeah. And I think society's mentality needs to take a huge shift because it's instilled to them, you know, various uh, you know, political platforms and things like that that they need to be afraid unless there's more prisons. And if people, you know, aren't in the community. And the reality is, you know, the the vast majority of people in prison are going to be released. They will be in your community; they already are. Do we want them released with no support so they're forced to, you know, remain in this cycle of crime and reoffend in order to survive? Or do we want to have those supports in the community and resources for them to thrive and become productive members of society? You know, these are your neighbors, whether you like it or not, so why wouldn't you be reaching out to help them? And that stems from my belief in a core value of kindness that I choose to live by every day. And the biggest example of that that I can give is when Brian Wilson went for sentencing for sexually assaulting me in the prison, I wrote my victim impact statement and read it, and I said, you know, "These are all the ways you harmed me, but now my heart hurts for you because you're going to an environment where I know you're not going to get the help you need, 'cause I've been there, right? And I I want you to know I forgive you, and I hope you can learn to forgive yourself so that you could start the healing journey and so that you can stop harming others and be the best you you can be, and just know I support you in that journey."
Wow. So I think that was really important, CU. Then I later found out that he was really working hard towards that and, you know, making those changes because he was overwhelmed with the fact that I showed so much kindness after the harm he caused me. Wasn't expecting that at all.
Great. Thank you for that. Um, I'll pass it on to Tanisha for our next question, or if you want to share anything…
Um, yeah, I just want to thank you, actually, for being so vulnerable with like your journey, 'cause I myself, too, was formally incarcerated. So I just like being able to like share the process, and I can tell like just with you telling the story like you're using it as a strength to kind of portray what happened, um, because the strip search thing, it's definitely um something that can be embarrassing, um, especially when guards are not very um kind when it comes to the process. So I just want to thank you for sharing that part. Um, there's also the part around being um Black and coming to jail. I remember like I had single braids in at the time, and I literally just did my hair, and they literally wanted me to pull out all like 120 of my braids in front of a guard, and they made sure I threw like everything in the garbage, and they had like a dog sniffing me like while I was doing it. So just like things around that where like society doesn't really catch on to those things, especially—what if I was afraid of dogs? What if I was allergic to dogs, right? Um, so that can be very traumatic for women, like just entry-wise, like not even like going out into general pop.
Absolutely.
Yeah. Thank you. Oh, thank you for sharing that.
Yeah, no problem. I kind of like—same with you—I feel like I kind of use it as my strength now, like kind of going towards the work that I do, 'cause we work with um children and youth that are going through a process that they don't know. So I feel like it's kind of best that they work with somebody who's kind of been through it and can kind of guide them properly and then provide those supports that they need to reintegrate properly, whether it's preparing them to go in or preparing them like when they're getting out. So yeah.
And I think that the the the healing piece is so important because I think you're both speaking from a from an entry point of having processed it and kind of either, you know, you're along your healing journey—you know, healing never really finishes—but I think you're well past where you started out where, you know, many people we um encounter in trying to help them uh we see that they even haven't started that journey. They don't have the language; they don't have the thought process to really dissect it. You got to the stage of forgiveness; you know, many people are still in the vengeance um zone. And so I think, you know, we we we had Greg um previously where we really broke this down, the impact of trauma and the psyche, and I think it's so important uh which I think transitions to the other point we're going to discuss is, you know, society is under this assumption that jail and the fear and the culture—you're supposed to go in, you know, say, "Okay, I learned," and come out and never do it again—in the ideal world, but we know that's not what happens. You actually come out worse than when you went in, regardless of what you did. To your point of you knew the type of help that person needed; they weren't going to get it; it likely they were going to get worse, and if anything, end up staying and rotting and so forth. And so I think one of the questions is really what initiatives have you found most effective in facilitating successful reintegration uh and that reduces recidivism that addresses the root causes, you know, which we know is in the health care and the housing and employment.
Well, it's really hard uh through the initiatives that I I currently fund across Canada. It's really hard to to really pick and choose which ones are the best because they all have different purposes and really and truly it's about meeting people where they're at. So I mean, there's investments where they're taking the most vulnerable people that nobody else wants to take in from jail and providing them with, you know, harm reduction environment. It's a housing-first approach with a harm reduction environment, and their—they're provided with an occupational therapist and nurse practitioner and a doctor. And so—
Sorry to jump in, what is harm reduction? It's another word we we hear a lot, but from your stance, what what does harm reduction look like when you look into a program, for example, right?
So harm reduction, contrary to to popular belief, isn't that people are condoning the use of of substances or that they're encouraging it. It's about the fact that we know that people are going to use, um, and so we just want to make sure that they do it safely and that we can prevent deaths from happening, and that's what it boils down to. And uh, studies have shown, and it's very common knowledge now, that harm reduction is actually more effective when working with trauma than abstinence because if you take somebody's a means of coping with things, they're numbing the pain; they're they're they're, you know, masking the pain through substances. If you take that away, they're not going to be able to effectively deal with those root causes of the trauma because they're constantly going to be wanting to hide that pain and mask it up. And so the more they're able to, you know, lean on those coping mechanisms while working through the trauma, the less they end up needing those coping mechanisms and the less they they rely on the substance and eventually move towards the abstinence. So it's not about, you know, encouraging the drug use; it's about recognizing that right now where this person's at, taking that away isn't going to help them be successful.
Great. Thank you for that. And sorry, I jumped in. You were just talking about some of the programs that you founded and how they meet people where they're at using that harm reduction…
Right. So my very first investment with was with Coverdale Justice Society, and that really stemmed from a lot of things. Um, Ashley Avery, who's the executive director there, is is a very, very forward-thinking, innovative, you know, level five transformative leader that recognizes that, you know, the way things are currently being done is not working. And a big part of that is when you look at the homelessness-jail cycle. And that came from the, you know, seeing during the pandemic having to build the the pop-up shelters with the full wraparound services to decarcerate the jails in Nova Scotia. And um, Ashley and I wrote an article that's on uh my LinkedIn page. It was the largest mass decarceration in Nova Scotia history.
Wow.
And it talks about the successes of that and everything. And then the Department of Justice says, "Well, we're going to put our money into electronic monitoring instead." Well, 100% of these people were homeless, so they had no address to be released to, so where are you going to monitor them from?
Right.
Right. So um, what had happened was the jail started filling back up, so we ended up investing in Coverdale Justice Society, uh, and they opened up a a 15-bed home called Caitlyn's Place, and it was actually named after a client of of Caldes called Caitlyn Greenwell, and she had a dream of a place like…
This is where she could go, a safe space where she could get the support she needs and not have to return back to jail. Unfortunately, during the pandemic, in September 2020, she committed suicide. And so this is named after her, and it's a 15-bed house for women and gender-diverse individuals who are sitting on remand in provincial jail because they're homeless. And you know, if you look at the statistics, over 70% of people in provincial jails are on remand. That means that they haven't been convicted of a crime. You know, so these aren't even people that are sentenced for committing a crime; these are people that were just accused of a crime. And quite often what happens is you're seeing people taking deals, uh, you know, and and and pleading guilty to things that they haven't done or that they wouldn't be convicted of, just so that they're not sitting in that environment, because it's not a good environment to be in. If you're on remand, you don't have the same access to the programs that are in higher security. And so this allows uh women and gender-diverse individuals on remand to be able to go to Caitlyn's Place. They have—it's staffed 24 hours a day—they have full wraparound services. And like I said, occupational therapist, nurse practitioner, doctor, programming, employment opportunities, education, you know. And so the Department of Justice did not want to fund this because of the harm reduction practice. So Ashley was very innovative, and um, the Department of Community Services saw this as a way to address their housing crisis. And after 7 months of our investment, they stepped up and said, "We're going to give per permanent core operational funding to this." And since then, we opened On House, which is a 15-bed uh space for youth uh as well, which uh the Department of Community Services also came in and said, "We will permanently fund if North Pine steps in and and does the first two years." And now we just recently did our third one, which will be a Coverdale Justice Institute that would also have 15 beds and it would amalgamate all their programming and services under one roof and a national coordinator that would scale the model to other areas of Canada as well. And the Department of Community Services again said, "If North Pine sustains the first two years, we will take over permanent core operational funding."
It's awesome.
Yeah. And it didn't happen alone. I mean, I invested in other organizations that would help, so Mobiles Outreach Street Health um is a part of that that we funded that provides the occupational therapist and and stuff like that. And so it actually transformed an entire community because people are so used to working in silos, and organizations are so used to the traditional funding models that keep them fighting over scraps, you know, over over crumbs and working in silos. So this broke down those silos and actually enabled people to, you know, share their resources and work together and collaborate for the best outcomes and the most impact for the individuals that they're serving.
Okay, a lot to take in.
Yeah. I mean, I think I really love that you think outside the box, and you're, you know, always looking for innovative solutions that are looking at the root causes. You know, you started out with, like, you know, the systemic piece doesn't get amplified as much, and we always make it about the person and their decision. And so I think we we we know we need to address the root causes, or else it becomes kind of like you said, a revolving-door cycle. I pass it on to T. What else you got for um…
So just a follow-up on like reintegration, what role would you say education plays in that process?
Well, I think education plays a a large piece. Um, if you look at the statistics, I think it's, you know, the majority, about 80% of people have a grade four level education in prison. So the numbers are are not very good. And when you go into prison, you know… I don't know what they did since they took away the GED, but they're actually still figuring it out; nothing has been formally announced.
Yeah. So when I was in… that happen exactly when they took that away? Very recently, just uh this year, I believe, right? They didn't really make a big announcement about it either. It's been kind of hush-hush.
Yeah. Okay. And unfortunately, so I mean, the way it is, first of all, let's let's break it down to, you know, we got we've got usually, you know, retired teachers or semi-retired teachers that are being contracted by Correctional Service Canada to go in and teach uh teach the the the people incarcerated so that they can get their GED. And um, so if you even look at that in itself, these aren't people that are trauma-informed; these aren't people that are used to to dealing with people that may have, you know, cognitive behavior issues or traumatic brain injury for one, you know, um and all these uh additional um complexities that they wouldn't normally deal with. So that in itself, you know, uh could be better if we hired people that would have that type of training and would be able to provide it. But outside of that, you know, there's no access to postsecondary education. Um, it used to be that you could do it if you pay for yourself, but you would have to do it fully offline, so it'd be purely paper-based. Well, that doesn't exist anymore; everything's done online. So they don't allow the internet into the federal prisons.
Yeah, no, they don't. And that's something I'm working on now, uh, you know, working with Public Safety to try and change those policies. There's programs in place that mitigate risk so that we can have internet for educational purposes and that, you know, block sites. I mean, they already do it for their staff; staff can't go on to certain sites. So it's not like it isn't happening; they just haven't changed the policies to allow for it. Um, so I do invest in some uh organizations that um provide education to people who are currently incarcerated. And so Dr. L. Jones at Mount St. Vincent uh University was one of them who was an investment done with the Coverdale one as a part of the learning ecosystem. Okay. And so she actually took her programming—she's an associate professor at at MSVU—and she took her programming and made it into a purely offline, and it's a very tedious process. I mean, she's on three-way calls giving lectures over the phone, you know, taking down assignments for people, mailing things back and forth, and this is offering full degree programs, you know. So actually, it it really good because now I've been in conversations with MSVU and I said, you know, "You were the first university to have tuition waivers for youth who are wards of the crown; we need this for formally incarcerated." So we're actually in the process of designing that admissions right now to have tuition waivers for formally incarcerated. And this would also provide that, you know, continuum continuum of care when they're coming out; they start their education inside; they can continue without disruption, right? And not have to worry because we have things in place for full wraparound services, housing support, mental health support, addiction support, anything that that somebody would need, including emergency assistance, um, you know, things like that. So those are just a couple. Then then… yeah, education's very important. I also do a Vancouver Island University's Inside Out program. Okay. And they're in some different institutions in British Columbia, and it matches an inside student, so somebody who's incarcerated with a student who's in university, and they take a course together. Yeah. And then they have these think tank alumni where they, you know, discuss different issues that they've they've they've uh, you know, recognized and and acknowledged and try to find solutions to those, you know, whether it's making systemic changes or yeah or… yeah. I mean, I think the return on investment for education, it's always a good one when we when we're able to track it. I know…
Just a couple of things on the education point you mentioned. Um, you know, um, a couple years ago I did a bit of a a scan around education that was available to folks while incarcerated in in Ontario and really in our province. The two main uh folks who are doing programming inside around that were, you know, Wallster Bridges, which kind of has that, you know, doing a class bringing folks from the outside with folks on the inside, and Amandas, who, you know, well… um, who do either GED, you know, finishing their anterior secondary school diploma or through paper-based correspondence, um, doing a postsecondary course. Now we are working with um Kevin McKennis from CSC where they've kind of created these courses that uh on devices which have been vetted so they don't have internet, but the links have been vetted um in order for folks to be able to complete courses. It's offered within federal facilities, and we are hoping to advocate and work to bring it within provincial facilities because one of the problems, to your point, is the federal and the provincial, they don't talk; there is a major inconsistency across that, and I think that uh would bring um, you know, would create opportunities for folks um to be able… so there is some good things happening, but we don't know what's going to happen with the GED replacement, but we know um education is really really important. And the one thing I did also find when I was doing that literature scan and what exists is colleges, universities have accommodations, right? But being incarcerated is actually not one of the approved criterias for accommodations when in fact it should be. And so I think that's something we need to continue to advocate for um in order to make that happen. And you know, places like the United States do have something like the Pell Grants where folks who are incarcerated can apply for scholarships, and we don't have something like that in Canada.
Yeah, actually, those have slowly been taken away too. Uh, one of my uh friends, Nancy Lewis, is one of the professors down in in uh New York State for those programs. Yeah, and unfortunately, they've been taken away as well. So what was the name of that show on Netflix? Remember that's all about education in prison? Um, it's not coming to me, but I think it's called *Prison Education*. It's a really good series if folks haven't watched it; I highly recommend to check it out.
I'm going to go look for it. Thank you.
Yeah. So for us, um, you know, we got a couple more questions before we wrap it up. I know you've had a wealth of experiences; you know, you've done such a beautiful job taking your lived experiences and helping people who don't understand how the system works to then think about policy and processes. So can you tell us a little bit around some of the advisory roles, the board memberships, um, you know, testifying before Senate committees and how that type of advocacy has uh led to some current legislative or policy changes?
Right. So I mean, it's great that I'm able to fund and provide non-financial supports to organizations, but if unless we're actually truly making systemic change, we're never going to get any further ahead than we already are because even when we do find better solutions, improve these be better solutions with the same policies in place, it's always going to re, you know, regress back to what's already um existing and not working. And I just want to point out also, like, in no way do I point the finger and lay blame; this isn't a blame game about corrections does it wrong or government does it wrong and things like that, you know. This is about working together to find those better solutions and build those better solutions. Um, so you know, we don't limit our funding to just just organizations, and this isn't just like a pitchfork against the government type thing, you know. If Corrections came up with something phenomenal that they wanted to do, I would definitely support that if it was finding better solutions to to what what people really need.
Oh, the question… no problem. Um, it was really about um how have some of your experiences um, you know, with committees have influenced change, right? So I mean, I I get heavily involved in a lot of things on the back end, and the reason I do that is because, you know, like I said, what I'm doing now really proves out better solutions and gives the enough information and data that we can then take and uh try and try and make those policy changes and legislative changes. Um, for instance, like I just spent… health care inside the prisons is is just just, you know, again, these are people that are hired by by Correctional Service Canada, so you know, confidentiality non-existent, um, they don't treat people the same incarcerated as they as they would outside the prisons. You know, think about being a pregnant mother inside a prison and going to give birth handcuffed to a bed while giving birth, you know, things like that, or having to go—like myself—having surgeries down below for the the damage that was caused from all my abuse and having guards standing there, you know, invading your privacy. Uh, there is no privacy, even though you know you have a right to that privacy, you know. So those are other things. And so I just spent over a year on the technical standards committee as a policy maker uh designing those those standards for Correctional Service Canada when it comes to health care of incarcerated individuals, and it actually was launched yesterday in a public draft for review, so that was released yesterday. You can find it on my LinkedIn page if you want to provide any insight, comments, or feedback that we will then take back. Uh, it's open for public review till September 22nd of this year, and then we'll take that back and and uh take those into consideration while doing the final draft.
Awesome. Thank you for that. Okay. Sah, so um we really value you as a funder, and we really love the work that you're doing. So I just want you to talk a little bit about how that how you came across the work that we do here at YCE and how the partnership is going for you.
Yeah, so um I was very fortunate to hear from Aravan and um he was able—him and Devon were able to tell me about the wonderful work that they were doing here and and the ideas that they had for the dynamic uh custody model that they were looking at. And of course, I was extremely interested in what they were doing, and you know, I can't even keep up with everything they do because it's always just… I love visiting here and just seeing the impact that it's having because I get to come here and see the the the youth in action, and it's a busy place, you know, and and everything that's going on, and it's constantly like, "Oh, we've added this, and we've done this," and you know… and finding somebody like Aravan and and Devon and the rest of you that are are here with YCE, you know, I'm more about investing in people, you know. Any organization can tell you anything, but I can sit down with the individuals and I can see the passion and the devotion and, you know, the you you know, recognizing that, you know, the needs of the individuals that they're serving are what's important and really, you know, trying to hone in on what those are, and I see that here, you know. And just, you know, the fact that these are youth that are in conflict with the law and often, you know, with with firearms-related charges and things like that, and you know, people would… people don't understand how people get to that place, and I think that's important is understanding the stories of how this happens. And quite often it's because gee, Canada spends $84 billion a year to keep people in poverty. Yeah, you know, that's a very high number. So when you're born into, you know, Toronto Toronto Community Housing, mhm and you know, in in Nova Scotia, we saw it when when they took people who lived in Africville and moved them up to Uniacke Square and, you know, put them all into this place and then like built up this this this environment of of poverty that people were stuck in this cycle and generation after generation, people are being born into the same cycle of poverty and, you know, no resources and and nothing for the for no way out and no, you know, the oppression and colonization and everything that goes on to recognize the root causes, you know. These these youth aren't coming out and getting guns because they want to be cool and they want to commit crimes; they're getting guns because they are in a place where they're not safe and they see generation after generation that this has been an unsafe place to be, and they want to protect themselves; they're scared. Yeah, they're scared; they don't have these criminal masterminds where they want to go out and, you know, take over the world; they're fearful, and they don't want to die, and that's the reality of it. Yeah. And you know, recognizing that, and I think the big thing is recognizing, you know, the system as a whole was based on a foundation of oppression and racism and discrimination and colonization; the criminal Justice Code uh criminal justice system in Canada was designed to oppress and control the Indigenous population; that's why it was created. So when you take that foundation of bigotry and racism and and whatnot and you build on that, and then those people are teaching the next people coming in the same laws and the same system, you know, it's a cycle just like the cycle of poverty and the cycle of criminalization and intergenerational trauma and things like that; it's just on a different, you know, two different levels. And you know, just like what people do in community to help criminalized individuals, a lot of it's putting Band-Aids on things; it's no different than the criminal justice system, you know. They've got this rotten foundation that they build this house on. And when they see parts of the house crumbling, they tear down and fix those parts of the house, but it's still on a rotten foundation, and so it's never going to be sustainable; it's never going to change; it's never going to be a nice house until you tear it down completely and start from the ground up. Well, it's the same with, you know, these youth and and people who have been incarcerated or in conflict with the law; until we address the poverty and the systemic oppression and marginalization and discrimination that's keeping them in this cycle of violence and, you know, until we actually tear it down and build it from the ground up, we're not going to see real change.
Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, the fact that you said, you know, "you invest in people," I think that's very important, and you know, we're really grateful here at Y being able to have such amazing people like Tanisha who have that lived experiences because I think nobody wants to talk to someone about their problems or their trauma if you don't trust or think that they're not going to understand you, which is why, as an example, we have so many parents come and say, you know what, "My child acts up in school or in community, but when they're here at Y, it's, you know, they're so different," right? It's because they they feel validated; they feel seen; they feel listened. And it sounds a little bit cliché, but if we can do that consistently, particularly during those difficult times, um, you know, it makes a big difference. And you know… want to just flip it to you, Tanisha, like how how is it for you being in that role of now doing programming and supporting people who have gone through, you know, struggles that you know you could relate to?
Um, how is it for me working with them? Like, sometimes it's like… um, I like to help them replay their tape, call it like playing the tape till the end, just making sure they're recognizing where they made their mistakes because even for myself, there was a lot of self-reflection during my reintegration. So I just feel like it's really important to make sure that they take things step by step, that they're able to take things slow, let them know that they're capable, 'cause a lot of times they feel like they're not, and they're stuck, and they can't do this and they can't do that. Um, a lot of motivation, 'cause sometimes they get so used to the waking up at this time, breakfast at this time; they're so stuck in this like structured time. Um, it's kind of like trying to break that and give them flexibility, break them out of that kind of like laziness. So implementing certain things in programming where it comes to like self-esteem boosting and learning the healthy boundaries and learning when to say no, um, being okay with saying no and don't let anyone feel like, you know, they can judge you for making a different decision. Um, I enjoy it because I feel like um they adapt to it quick, and then they're listening to somebody that has been there, so it's not like I'm steering you to a wrong place, so they're more receptive to…
It and the delivery too, like I like to practice my delivery a lot because I don't want them to feel like this is what I did, don't do it, but more like, more meeting them where they're at, talking to them on their level. Cuz majority of them are like children with programming, so not making them feel like I'm towering over them with all the rules and what they need to be doing. But you know what, I've been there before, listen is how it goes and then showing them what they can be—verying. I mean, that's beautiful, cuz almost like regardless of what you went through, it makes you who you are, you know. And we started out with sharing your story and very deep, and you know, it makes you who you are and and it gives you that currency to be able to navigate the different spaces because um you understand how power works and how oppression works, and and you know you you become an advocate for it. So well, I I just want to add also, you know, I think like for for for you and I, you know that lived experience is important, you know. Like I know when I when I came out, I still had over three years of parole to do. My sentence didn't actually end until February 4th of 2023. Okay, so when I came out, you know, I had to build my credit up again, I had tons of things in the credit bureau, you know, I had to pay that off, I had to work hard, and you know, all these things. But I think, you know, the important thing is I really wanted to show that anybody can do anything if they really work hard towards it and have the right supports in their corner. So I actually bought a house, and the closing date on my house was the day before my sentence ended. February 3rd, 2023, was the closing date on my house, and the next day my sentence ended, just to prove. And now I see people incarcerated that I I speak with and I tell my story and I talk to them and and I get so much feedback about how they're like, wow, like you you you showed me that I can actually do something, you know. You you you you made me believe that I can actually accomplish things and change my life and actually have goals, and I think that's important for someone like you and I with that lived experience.
Yeah. Oh, beautiful, powerful. Um, okay, I'm going to end off with a question if you can both tackle it, and um um the question is what advice would you give to someone who, you know, is really in a rock-bottom position right now in life and come across our our podcast here and listening to your powerful narratives, um whether it's a person directly or it's a parent or a guardian or a caregiver who doesn't know how to cope with their loved one being incarcerated, cuz there's that Family Impact side of it.
Mhm. What advice would you give the person or, you know, their Circle of Care and how to move forward? Wow, there's so many layers to that question. Um, so some advice I would give for maybe parents or loved ones that have people incarcerated: try to learn the process, research as much as you can, and even though you can't physically be present, at least be very active because sometimes like those phone calls is all you have, especially if um you're on lockdown for 23 hours or um for whatever reason bell went down and the phones are not working, like just be present, be available when you can. Um, for those that feel like they're at rock bottom, um, write things down. There's nothing wrong with starting over. Don't feel like you can never start over. Write it down, um, and think things through, step by step. Break things apart slowly. Don't try to put all your eggs in one basket at a time, just slowly think it through, and there's nothing wrong with putting it on paper so you can visually see it and create a vision board of where you want to be, so you know what you're working towards.
Awesome. Thanks for that. What about you, Sarah?
Yeah, I echo that, and you know all that also, you know, if if you're a parent or or a loved one of somebody who's incarcerated, you know, as you said that you know that contact is so meaningful, um, but also, you know, there's enough shame, there's enough guilt. Mhm. We don't need more of that. Try and be more supportive and understanding, and if that means, you know, talking more to, you know, people in your community, organizations that work with people who are incarcerated or formerly incarcerated, just to to gain more knowledge and understanding and and empathy. It doesn't mean you're condoning the behavior; it means that you're trying to work together so that you can best support your loved one when they're coming out and while they're inside, so that you know, and and believe in them. You know, that's one thing is if you don't have someone who believes in you when you can't believe in yourself, you're not going to be able to be successful. And for those who have reached rock bottom, I mean, there's so many places out there that like YCE and and Amadeus and Urban Res Solutions, and I mean, I can go on and on and on and on and on. Uh, there's so many supports in the community, there's people with lived experience. Reach out to somebody, anybody you can get connected. You know, you don't have to talk to the first person you reach out to, but you could be connected to somebody else that you could talk to. You know, you're not alone, and you don't have to do this alone. Uh, there's people who understand, people who who care, and you are worth that, you are worth it, you deserve it, and you know, don't be afraid to, even if you don't think you're worth it, you know you are. People, people believe that you are, and they're there to support you.
Awesome. I mean, I continue to learn, unlearn, and relearn through the powerful stories. I want to thank both of you for being vulnerable, really sharing uh all the things you've gone through, a lot of traumatic stuff, but how you've been able to harness that and use that and uh you know with your passion and compassion to really lead and do some amazing work and try to change the root causes of what leads to incarceration, but also how more effectively we can uh you know do reintegration in ways that is in ways that are sustainable and allows folks to then also give back and pay it forward. So um I'll say any of you want to, you know, any concluding thoughts on or comments before we wrap up another episode?
I could go on forever, so I'm I'll just say thank you so much for having me here today. It's always a a great honor and privilege to be able to come and see the amazing work that you all doing here with the youth in your community and you know how it's transforming lives and and just keep up the great work and I love working with you alongside with, you know, along this journey, and you know, let's just keep doing it for a million years. Let's do it right.
Thank you. Awesome. And that's a wrap on another episode, and um um hope to you know, let us know what you think and follow us on our social media platforms, and until next time, see you all right then. [Music]