Raptors & Cavaliers Series Preview | RR x Chase Down Pod

Everyone, welcome to another episode of the Poet Trade podcast. I'm Samson Folk. I co-host this thing. Uh, I'm joined by Travon Heath, the Trey That Pulls Up, the namesake. And we are joined by not just Trey on this podcast, but the Chase Down podcast, of course, the famous LeBron block, blocked by James, the namesake there, by Carter Rodriguez and Justin Rowan. How are you, Justin? I'm going to I'll direct traffic here. How are you doing? And are you excited for this uh this series we're seeing?

>> Uh I'm doing terrific. I am very excited for this series. Uh we we just wrapped up a a preview with our our good friend Esperhaney. Uh we and we were talking about how it's kind of funny that both fan bases seem happy to to play each other that it wasn't the matchup that we expected. And I think that there are valid reasons for both sides to to to feel that way when it comes to this. But it also means that somebody's walking away from this a little bit disappointed when when both sides are excited.

>> Well, I tell you, if it's if it's the Raptors walking away happy, I the Cavs I imagine would be more than disappointed. It would be shell shocked, I think, because the expectations for this team are are quite high. Carter, what are your expectations for this series? I'm not asking for the prediction, but uh broad strokes.

Uh, I think, uh, it'll be the first time we get to learn about this Cavs team, which, you know, it's it's it's I'm not sure I've ever gone into a, uh, a playoff series feeling like I know less about the team that I watch 80 time 82 times a year. Um, but, you know, it's just kind of been this uh, this comedy of errors or injuries and changes. And um you know we we've seen this team completely change their identity mid-season adding three rotation players in James Harden, Dennis Shrud, and Keon Ellis. They also shipped out a core part of their identity and Darius Garland. Uh they are second in the league in games missed, second in the the league in total salary missed among among uh playoff teams. Um and uh so we just really haven't seen them. Like kind of my pet stat is that the Cavs did not have a fiveman unit that played more than 100 minutes uh uh this year. Uh and their top unit, their top lineup, which was at 89 minutes, featured Darius Garland and DeAndre Hunter. So we just really don't know who these guys are at the end of the day. And um so I I'm really eager. It's weird. Normally, I'm spending the playoffs just thinking and racking my brain about every part of about their opponent. And it almost feels a little moot until I know who my team is. So, that's what I'm most eager to learn. Uh, obviously, there's going to be some great X's and O's and battles on the way that I'm sure we'll talk about, but that's where my brain is right this second.

>> That's that's the big stuff for sure. I just I did the podcast with Bob Schmidt and Fear the Fro. So, I know all of your guys fancy little stats. I know the 89 minutes. I know the elbow touches for Jared Allen is second only to Nickel. I know.

>> I listened to that today and my goodness, Bob was just rattling them off and you [laughter] I'm like, I want to hear Samson cook here. Bob's going to town.

>> I think he's got such a great voice, you know? So, it's like when he's going, it's great. Um, okay, Trey, before the people haven't heard from you yet after the the Cleveland uh matchup and you just so you guys know, Justin and Carter, the the Raptors fans, they've been beating my ass for being too high on this Cavs team. It's like, why do you think they're so good, man? We're going to roll them. Why do you like I'm I've been getting my ass beat because I wanted the New York matchup and maybe I will further. Trey, where are you on this whole thing?

H I I don't want to be a a schmuck, but I I felt the same way.

>> Oh, you went to go grab the switch. You're in trouble now, buddy.

>> It's It's irrelevant. The rap the Raptors record versus the Knicks in the regular season is irrelevant. They have they haven't beaten them in 12 in 12 matchups, which I understand that's concerning, but I think the the oppos the kind of the the opposite of the the Cavs situation. We know this team through tons of sample size of minutes and the things that they struggle with are dealing with with size and dealing with dribble penetration. And the Cavs happen to have James Harden who is one of the greatest drivers we've ever seen in the NBA and multiple big options that that could either turn into a lob, eat on the glass that just offers like so much more attention. I thought they had a better chance of trapping Jaylen Brunson and dealing with the consequences of Josh Hart taking threes. And if you lose like that and you you lose in five, like I'm okay with that as opposed to Jared Allen 25 and and 20 type series.

But >> okay, let me see.

>> I'll shoot some bail for us. The Raptor side of things. So the Raptors, any series can be won. Of course, the Raptors, they have things that they will try to do. They will try to inform far more transition. uh not maybe a tempo halfc court game, but perhaps like just moving at fullcourt pace non-stop, but I got to ask you, we'll start with you, Carter. Every fan base, every analyst, if you have a lean towards your favorite team, there are other things you're scared about the other team. And when Lewis and I did our big, you know, analytic and film breakdown deep dive, we spent a lot of time trying to problem solve what the Cavs posed. What do the Raptors do that makes uh Cavs fans or Cavs analysts think, well, this is a bit scary?

>> Um, well, the first thing they do is they run uh and they force turnovers. Um, and I think the Raptors best road to uh making this a long series and maybe having a chance at stealing it is getting the is beating up the Cavs as they get into their actions. Push, pull, grab, bump, the stuff that you can do in the playoffs a lot better. um and really overplay the Cavs pet actions. Uh we've seen teams be able to disrupt the Cavs rhythm by overplaying the short roll pocket pass and and getting pick sixes going the other way. Um, we've seen uh them kind of knock the Cavs out of their rhythm and have them uh kind of flatfooted as a shot goes up uh and get out and run. on the Cavs floor balance, especially in the front half of the season, was a disaster and teams were able to get out and run on them really, really well. I know that uh from our conversation with S that the Raptors uh transition efficiency isn't exactly where it needs to be, but it's not going to be a problem if it's if they're if they're consistently able to generate twoon ones, threeon ones where uh you know, the Scotty Barnes of the world are just able to steamroll their way to the rim because the only size on the floor for the Cavs is under their own basket. So, I I think that's kind of the road. Um, is is and the stuff that scares me is just physicality, be getting turnovers, be [clears throat] getting transition. And I think if if the Raptors aren't forcing turnovers, I just kind of don't see how they're going to score enough, but I think it's very possible that they can do it.

>> Okay. So, Justin, before I swing this over to you, just a heads up, everyone, film is going on screen. So, the uh the Cavs, they do run a lot of like you would think with James Harden, Don Mitchell, maybe this is just a team that's just spamming pick and roll. But while they run a lot of that, uh Kenny always likes to draw something special up. He's one of the best designers of offense in the NBA. And the Cavs, they run through a lot of stuff. To Carter's point, if you push and shove, a lot of these pretty actions can be a little bit too much hat on a hat in the playoffs, and you might just get down to the brass tax. Justin, the physicality stuff, I I don't know if you guys know, but the Cavs, Raptors fans think they're soft. I think a lot of the NBA thinks the Cavs are soft. What do you make about this team, and I guess transitioning into playoff style?

I I think that's actually one of the more interesting questions of the series because I think both of these teams are capable of applying physicality and you know beating up the other team and both teams are also capable of falling victim to that sometimes where they get out of a rhythm and when they're not as organized or sharp on the offensive and defensive end they can get pushed around. I think that's true for both of these teams. But I I think what kind of interests me in this matchup and getting back to what Carter's saying is how much are the Raptors able to kind of frontload their defense and get the Cavs going east versus west. I think that was something that we saw in those early matchups. Uh they were really effective there. The important context is at that time of the year the Cavs were for some reason completely allergic to running pick and roll. They were allergic to rim pressure. uh they were 26 in offensive rating before Darius Garland uh came into the lineup. They they just weren't running a lot of those kind of sets. And to me, the interesting thing, and you know, going back to what you guys were talking about of the Cavs matchup versus a Knicks matchup, the Knicks have an identity. They've been together and they have played that style of basketball for a while now. Whereas the Cavs, because of the availability issues and frankly, you know, the roster turnover, they don't have that same kind of chemistry and continuity as some other playoff teams. And I think that that plays into the Raptors hands to some extent because I I think when the Cavs have lost in the playoffs, one of the consistent criticisms that Carter and I have had is that it doesn't feel like Cavs basketball, that they got sucked into the other team's style of play. I think that was very true for the Indiana Pacers. And, you know, you could say, yeah, the the losing team, it doesn't feel like their basketball. But you look at the Orlando Magic versus the Celtics last year in the first round. That game, that series went five games, but it felt like Magic basketball the whole time. I think the the Raptors ability to kind of frontload defensively, maybe throw some strongside zone in there and get the Cavs going east and west and away from downhill. I think that that would be my biggest concern because I think beyond the pace, whichever team gets downhill the most, I think is going to win this series.

>> Yeah. Two teams that love getting into [clears throat] the paint. Trey, in terms of forcing the Cavs, East West instead of North South, there are uh there's a there's a problem to solve. Yes. But what how are you trying to dole out these defensive assignments? If you you're putting on your little Raptors coaches cap, how are you trying to stop the Cavs? Not in the nitty-gritty of, you know, X's and O's, but just what are you assigning in terms of matchups?

>> Yeah, I I think the first question is like who which big are you starting? I think Colin Murray Boils has earned the right to start game one.

>> I I think he should start >> over Ple.

>> It gives the Raptors their best chance of winning. I I think it would be fool's gold to assume that whether Emanuel quickly plays or not that he's going to be able to offer some sort of deterrence in from from a defensive standpoint. So having CMB within the lineup allows you to be a lot more switchable. And one thing we know about guys like Donovan, guys like James Harden, that they are very meticulous in trying to get the matchup that they want to then try to go get downhill. CB being that force and being him or Scotty being the guy that you are forced to switch on changes the dynamic of of that approach offensively. So, I would have both of those bigs start. And in terms of who's in terms of who starts if Quickly doesn't play, I think you play Jacobe Walter and not Jamal Shed. And you have Jacobe Walter um play on Donovan. And hope to God RJ Barrett can can stay with James Harden.

>> I did want to ask uh Trey right off the rip because like I mean cuz that I think both Justin and I were pretty surprised by that. Do you think that there's a chance that that is what Darko does or do you think that's something maybe he'll have to settle on if the Purle minutes don't go well?

>> I think it's something he's probably going to want to settle on. A lot of the season the Raptors have used like CMBB Jamal shed lineups, CMBB Mamu lineups to throw a funky transitional lineup that they can play fast with while still being physical. I think Yakob is going to get the the chance simply be just just because CMBB is doesn't have the requisite length to stop any of the vertical spacing stuff that Jared or Evan offer. And if he can be the guy that stops a lot of those looks, then sure, he could play some minutes. But the past two weeks or so, I don't think he's he's moving quick enough to show that he can do that.

>> It's so it's so interesting. I'm just going to say from the Raptors perspective, if you're playing CNB, I think you're blitzing like tip game one, blitzing, blitzing, blitzing because if you don't force Harden to pick up his dribble above the break, if he has any forward momentum, as you said, that vertical spacing for one of Allener Mobley is pay dirt. I I suspect Justin Carter, one of you guys, I'm surely surely has thoughts.

>> Yeah. Well, particularly if R.J.'s defending James and you know, you're kind of relying on him from a screen navigation standpoint, like are you basically saying we're, you know, bas soft switching everything? We're blitzing the hell out of this. We're trying to force the pickup because, you know, the base coverage is not going to work out here.

>> Yeah. Trey, what are your thoughts?

>> I I think that has to be the the way the Raptors are going to win this series or win a few games is forcing turnovers and and speeding up the pace. So, I think blitzing James on every single switch makes the most sense. I think you're going to have to live with like Jaylen Tyson's going to have a lot of open looks in games. Um, Evan Mobley might have a lot of two-on-one situations, but you're putting yourself in a situation where the back end of the defense is, in my theory, with CMBB or Scotty being the backline, your best two defenders being able to navigate that. And I think they can do that well. I you know at least in theory I understand what you're saying and I I think that that is a way that you can go about it right because what Carter and I were both saying is you take away kind of that short roll right and forcing a pickup is one of the ways that you can do so right you make them uncomfortable because I think if Harden's finding Moy there or or whoever you know sometimes you they'll they'll have Max Duce or or they'll have Jaylen Tyson slip in those situations as well if that guy is getting hit I think things break down for the Raptors because, you know, the their their rim protection numbers are not particularly strong. Obviously impacted by the the availability of Purle this season, but the Cavs are so good at that, you know, short roll playmaking, that big to big passing and, you know, finding the the shooter spraying out of that that it gets back to that are you preventing the Cavs from getting downhill? And if the the blitz is what effectively does that, I can see that working out. I just think you're giving up a little bit too much size. Like I I think you're almost better off deploying that type of of approach in the staggered minutes, right? Where okay, we we just kind of have James as the solo playmaker. Donovan's not out there and we're going to make him uncomfortable because we're daring uh Sam Merrill and Max Stru to create [clears throat] a little bit more. I think that some extent uh

>> I I think they I think Purle makes sense only because I think the Cavs are going to start Dean Wade at the three in this series >> and I just think that's where the help should be coming. You know, I think that's where they're going to show the extra bodies and they're going to load up on the strong side and say, "Dean, you want to put the ball on the floor, brother?" And the answer historically has been no. No, I do not. Uh and then it's just a matter of is he going to hit threes? Is he going to uh is he going to take threes that are even semicontested? Because I think a record scratch is like an enormous win for for this Raptors defense. Anytime the ball swings to the weak side after they've committed all these resources and Dean doesn't take the shot or and you know I at the end of the day doesn't if he doesn't make the shots. Um, I I just think that is like the best road for this Raptors defense to be able to gunk up what the guards do because two on the ball against James has been death, especially with Donovan on the floor. But if you are just basically abandoning Dean and just building a building a wall at the rim, I do think like that's probably your best chance, especially with the backcourt personnel you're going to have out there that are not, you know, like the RJ Barretts of the world are not the best screen navigators in the world. [clears throat]

>> How dare you? Uh, I'll have you guys know that Darko, maybe it was two weeks ago, >> R.J. had a game where there were maybe he guarded Cade actually and they beat Detroit. Uh, and afterwards, Darko was like, R.J. has all the tools to be like a two-way star in this league. I sat across from him and I was like, man, I [laughter] I don't believe that for a second, unfortunately. As as we can see for for viewers on screen, you can see Scotty is loading up off of Evan Mobley to just gunk up the lane for a a Donovan Mitchell drive. And to to Carter's point, if you pretend that Mobley is Dean Wade, then you can see this is how the Raptors will dissuade driving lanes and this is how the Raptors will get them to move the ball on. It gets more complicated when you think about like, you know, I had a James Harden double drag into establishing Donovan Mitchell clip in here. I can't find it right now, but uh the Cavs have a lot of different things they use to get these guys going. And Donovan Mitchell was kind of on an island during this season series, but like it's this is 77 shallow. The the Raptors run this as well. And just a quick note, actually Trey, you had a question. Wait, first everybody, I have to this is episode stationation of Tony Bet online sports book casino. I'm glad they're probably so happy they got that 18 minutes into the episode. Um [laughter] Trey, you had a question about uh Donovan, Garland, and Harden. I'll let you pose that to move us into this part.

>> Yeah, obviously the the biggest change for for the Cavs and for you guys is they made a a seismic shift with with Harden and and Garland. How do you think um Donovan's approach in the playoff adjustes with the addition of James Harden?

>> I think the biggest thing that Harden is bringing is availability to and you know that's that's not as lazy as an answer as it probably sounds because I I think one of the the issues the last two years is that when Darius was physically limited, it forced Donovan into kind of a point Donovan role, right? where Darius is playing primarily off ball and Donovan's an, you know, he's an all right playmaker for a shooting guard. He cannot run an offense. Like that gets back to what I was saying before where before Darius came back, they were 26th in offensive rating.

>> Um the Pacers, I thought their approach to defending Donovan was really smart, right? Like we're basically allowing him to beat us one-on-one. If we're not sending help, it's not going to give him those easy passing reads that he's actually going to go out and make. I think that that's something that the Raptor should try to steal in the kind of Donovan without James uh minutes. But I I think what what Harden is bringing is, you know, someone that's going to take a lot of those ball handling uh responsibilities, someone that's going to consistently feed the bigs. I think that's one of the things that we're really looking for because that's something that Cass fans and analysts will say like Harden guarantees that the bigs are going to be fed. But in some of these matchups where they've played Boston or they played OKC, we have seen it devolve where all of a sudden Evan Moy and Jared Allen aren't getting those touches late, right? Like um maybe the the ball handling split went from 7030 James initiating to Donovan to a true 50/50. And I think when that happens, it stagnates. So I think the hope is that James is going to give you a, you know, floor raising presence that's going to keep the bigs involved, keep things moving, and also dictate the style of play. I think that is kind of the the main gamble with with this move. Um, but I I don't think it's necessarily as sure of a thing as some Cavs fans might think, just because when you don't have time together and you hit adversity, I think that's where old habits kick in. And I think James has been so kind of, you know, deferring to to what what's going on with the Cavs and trying to fit into the style and, you know, moving around more and and trying to to match their their pace of play, right? Like he'll he'll get out and try to run if they're running and stuff like that. I think sometimes he can defer too much and that's where I worry about the, you know, Donovan initiating taking everybody else out of the matchup.

>> Yeah, it's kind of a weird relationship where I almost think like in some cases, uh, Darius was a better fit for Donovan when Donovan was on the ball than James is. Um, just because James doesn't really move. You know, he's not a guy who's going to run through, you know, three screens off ball and destabilize a defense. like you look at his gravity numbers, they're all really really good. You basically do get to sign up to play four on four uh when when he's on the floor. But I do think there is something to the idea of if the Peak Cavs had that 50/50 split between Darius and Donovan in terms of who gets to initiate the offense and it feeling really really good. I do think to Justin's point a 7030 maybe 65 35 kind of split where Harden is doing the lion share of the initiation and helping Donovan catch the ball against a destabilized defense that to me still feels like the best version of what they do like I that clip you played earlier Samson where Donovan's catching the ball coming off a screen and is able to attack >> you're like like Donovan against a set defense in a you know broken play setting is one of the best bucket getters in the league. and that's great, but Donovan against an a destabilized defense is pretty unfair. And like that's where uh I think the offense really gets humming. That's where his reads get really easy and he's able to make the kind of plays that uh he's capable of making. Um, and I just think that's the best way to kind of democratize what they're doing at the end of the day. So that's kind of the the interplay I'm really really curious to see just cuz we haven't really seen enough high leverage moments with these guys and and this being put to the test.

>> Okay. So uh to the point I'm going to bolster both points. One the fears about Harden versus Garland. The motion Donovan is driving this. You know all five Hawks are present. James Harden is on the floor. However, he is not in view camera. He's not on the screen. and Darius Garland probably makes himself available for an above the breakthrough. And while Harden does eventually come around and call for it, it is pretty late. But as mentioned, there are ways that the the Cavs can use Garden or Harden and Donovan Mitchell. And Justin, I know you said you listened to another podcast appearance I had earlier today, so you will understand this reference. Before James Harden joins the Cavs, Don Mitchell is driving and he's about as efficient as Trey Jones per Synergy. And Trey Jones had a good driving year, but it's not great for Donovan Mitchell. After Harden arrives, Donovan Mitchell leaps into the top three in the NBA and basically is giving you Luca Donuch driving efficiency numbers. That is massive. But now, fellas, we have to talk about what the Raptors do offensively at least a little bit. And so for people who don't know, and I'm going to beat you guys to the punch on saying this, by the way, uh the Dean Wade lineup where he's at the three has an 85 defensive rating per cleaning the glass. That's a monstrous number. Why is it so damn good, fellas? Why Why are they stopping everyone all the time?

>> You know what? I'm embarrassed. And I I have Carter knows I have so many pages of research and stuff. I actually didn't have that one handy for [laughter] this year podcast. I wasn't going to say that. I am aware of how damn good that lineup is on the defensive end of the floor, but um that that wasn't something that I had ready to go.

>> Why it's so good is Dean's their best perimeter defender. He's a very good screen navigator. He's a very good perimeter uh isolation defender. He does a better job staying in front of guys um than, you know, even a couple years ago. I think in the past when he was guarding shifty players, he could get a little handsy, right? like he wasn't moving the feet so he would grab, he'd get in foul trouble when he was guarding, you know, your Jaylen Brunson types. Um, so I I think part of it is Evan Mobley is a very good defender. Jared Allen's a very good defender. Dean Wade's a very good defender. So when you have those three out there, it's going to cover for a lot. And frankly, they do need to cover for a lot because I think one of the trade-offs with going from Garland to to Harden is, you know, with the Cavs specific defense, they do switch a lot. And I think in the past like they would soft switch in a matchup against the Celtics and you know that's how you end up with Darius Garland defending more Jason Tatum shots than any player in the NBA last year. Like Harden's not going to get posted up in the same type of way. But the offball attentiveness with he and Donovan Mitchell is rough. Like it's it's a legitimate struggle and there are times where the point of attack defense is very tough for them as well. Right. whereas Garland's going to stay in front of his man and he's pretty attentive off ball. He's just 6'1, right? So, I I think having those three out there um really does help cover for a lot for for the Cavs. I think the other thing uh that it does is it makes the switches easier um you know, especially when you know a Purle or someone is coming up to set a screen for Brandon Ingram. like that's just a switch, you know, that's just that you would just now have Jared Allen guarding Brandon Ingram with less time on the shot clock and Dean's going to be able to hold his own against fives and a lot of his lineups at the five are actually defend quite well. Um, and it kind of just creates that extra layer of insulation like the the core thesis of the Cavs defense when both those bigs are on the floor, Evan and Jared, is that you're always going to have at least one elite rim protector near the rim. Well, when you add Dean, well, he's not an elite rim protector. You now have at least two good rim protectors uh around at all times, even if you are switching Evan or Jarrett way and and someone's trying to drag them far out of the play. So, I think that uh I also think the rebounding Dean is not an individually strong rebounder, but he's one of those guys uh who kind of the team defensive rebound rate always just flies up when he's on the floor because he's attentive and he boxes out and makes it easy for Evan and Jarrett to just high-point rebounds when he's on the floor. So, I think there's that kind of that that trio of uh of things of, you know, he's an attentive on ball defender, he's switchable, and he can help protect the rim. Uh, I I just think that it it I mean they're just huge. Like that's that's 3610 or bigger dudes who all really really care about that end of the floor. Not a lot of teams run

>> are low. [laughter]

>> What part C is every lineup has very low minutes. So you can have an 85 defensive rating.

>> Yeah. The the new core four with Dean Wade has played a total of 33 minutes.

>> Okay. My question then, I don't know if you guys are seeing it once again, but everyone thinks that there's nobody to guard Brandon Ingram. There isn't. There isn't a soul on Cleveland. This is his series. If Dean Wade is 69, 230, and uh, you know, a really strong defender both in like when you watch the tape and in the I guess correlative stats, why do people think this? What do you guys think about that?

>> One, he he looks like Dean Wade. So, I think that's always part of it. [laughter] Yeah, I'll all due respect. Uh

>> oh, Dean looks like three out of four of us on screen.

>> Yeah, I was about to say as someone that looks like my archetype, that's probably going to be part of it. Um, but Dean does do a really good job. Like I I think that was the matchup where you know on the the chase down uh preview that we did with S I said that's probably the most important one because if Dean is able to guard BI straight up where you don't need to send help um he's settling for some mid-range shots he's not getting downhill. I think that really hurts the Raptors half court offense and then you have to go do something else to try to get the Cavs into rotation so that BI can get downhill. Maybe that's hey RJ you got to be really aggressive hardens on you and and you know you can turn the corner on him and open up you know kind of that swing swing and then BI attacks but Dean I feel good about that matchup from a Cavs perspective just his ability to get around screens his ability to stay in front of Brandon Ingram. Uh he did not play a lot in that that uh you know, the the season series. Um, I kind of looked at the top 12 in total minutes played versus Toronto this season and eight of them I don't anticipate being in the game one rotation. Um, so, you know, I I it it's so hard to get anything from that, but I I do think that that at least going in I feel good about Dean's ability to to hold up in that situation. And I just think like at the end of the day and you if you're watching these highlights like that I mean a lot of these are really tough shots and that's kind of the Brandon Ingram experience is that he's really good at hitting those kinds of tough shots. But like I think if you are not getting into rotation and he's scoring 22 points on 17 field goal attempts like the question I just think very quickly becomes is where do the Raptors find their efficiency otherwise? Where do they find their you know their 20 points on nine shots? because like it kind of then has to be Scotty and I just you know I I feel okay about that if if Evan and Jared are on the floor and making life hard. So the big thing as you as you mentioned like bang on that's why I cut the clips because I was I was watching all this film before we started doing all this coverage and I was like so Brandon scored in transition he scored on post ups basically against the Cavs and I watched as they earned him cross matches like they run that little screen to get him on Lonzo he's on Jaylen Tyson he's on a bunch of guys who are smaller than him and DeAndre Hunter is there and Dean Wade is there and the one time he gets to the rim is against Dean Wade. It blew it blew my mind. It was like it made me think because you could see actually in one of those plays they had Dean Wade guarding Jacobe Walter and then helping off of him to gum things up. And I was left to wonder like I wonder if they just say like if if Brandon is going to turn it into a mid-range maestro exhibition. Maybe we try and get away with smaller size. I don't know. I'm really interested to see how that shakes out because as you bring up where the Raptors get their efficiency from and what that looks like, even the offense over the course of the season this year is like Brandon is 57% true shooting. Scotty's 57 point whatever. Uh Emanuel Quickley is in 57 and RJ is 58. That is innings eating. And then they have four bench guys who are north of 60% true shooting and that's where they get their efficiency from. The guy who is better on this team at getting the ball to the, you know, the team, I guess, in general is Scotty. Justin, are you guys scared of Scotty in in Cleveland? He's an all-star player. He might make all NBAs. He's a scary guy to you guys.

>> I don't get scared of players. I I respect Scotty, though. I I do think that Scotty deserves all the accolades he's got this year. Um, I think, you know, his motor has been more consistent this season, and that's kind of the the biggest thing. Like, I think he deserves to be all defense. I think he deserve the the all-star spot as well. I'm really really curious to see how that matchup goes with Evan Mobley because I think both teams are going to handle that matchup the same way. I think they are going to guard each other. I think they are going to cheat off each other from a floor spacing standpoint. And I think on the offensive end of the floor, both teams are going to work to get one another off of one another. I think the Cavs are going to want to get Scotty off of Evan Mobley and the Raptors are going to want to get Scotty or get Moley off of Scotty. So, I'm very curious to see how those teams access that. And that might just mean there's a lot of guard screening in this matchup, right? Like, hey, like we're not going to run a twoman with with Scotty MBI because >> we're swapping Mob for Dean Wade. like we're not we're not really getting anything here. Or if we do it with Yaka Purle, Jared Allen can can hang in this kind of matchup, right? Um

>> I I'm very very curious to see how that goes because I think if from like a productivity standpoint, if that matchup is a draw, it's a wrap for the Raptors. Pardon the P. That wasn't intentional. But like I I I think Scotty is going to have to be more productive and I think some of that is definitely going to have become in transition, right? Like I think they're going to have to get out and run and I think that was something that we definitely saw in the season series.

>> That's exactly what I was going to say. Uh Justin and Jaylen Tyson fear no man, but I fear some things. [laughter] And I fear I fear uh after Scotty in transition because I think that's his best road to make hey in this series. And like sometimes when you say that it's kind of like damning with faint praise. It's like yeah he's going to have to get out and run. But like I think it's like kind of a perfect matchup for him to do that especially you know if the Cavs are running a switch heavy lineup and all of a sudden Evans near the near the you know rim uh on a defensive rebound for Toronto and uh Scotty's around the three-point line and he's able just to get moving up like I like I just think like that is where if especially when the Cavs only have one of the bigs on the floor and they're playing a Max at the three or a Jaylen Tyson at the four and Scotty's just kind bull rushing all the way to the rim. Those are all like those have obviously that there's, you know, they're highly efficient plays. They're also the kind of like demoralizing plays that can kind of change the tenor and tone of a game. Um, so I I do worry about that a little bit, especially with the Cavs shaky commitment to floor balance over the course of the season because like I do think like Scotty's going to get a couple buckets bull rushing against this Cavs team even in the half court because he's become a really really good player. Um, and you know If there's one thing you can ding this Cavs front court for is you can knock them back sometimes. Um, but what the Cavs generally do is make up for that by being long uh and coordinated and athletic and covering the distance anyway. So, I I don't think he'll be a crazy efficient halfcourt player in this series, but I I just think there's going to be a lot of opportunities for him to be a devastating transition player even if the Cavs aren't playing sloppy. I just think there's going to be some inherent opportunities that come with a very switchy series, which I think this is going to be.

>> Trey on screen. Two Jamaican sons battling.

>> I I got to know you >> problem of two years.

>> It [laughter] might it might seem like you're biased for the Raptor side, but these are your two Jamaican sons. What do you think of Scotty versus Mobly? it what similar to what Justin said, Scotty has to win the matchup and it has to win in a large way for the Raptors to have have a chance. I think the the biggest thing that is going to decide if Scotty's effectiveness in the series is whether he can force that rotation that that opens up other three-point opportunities. I think from like a strength perspective, he should be able to to get downhill, force spit force Evan closer to the rim. I think it's a matter of who who are the outlets that can help in those situations. Like Purle in the half court in half court scenarios makes a lot of sense. They use him all the time for a little short roll pass. Use him all the time to finish at the rim with his floater. I think what will be huge for this series if he does play is Emanuel Quickley. He's going to go against two guards that >> aren't the greatest screen navigators that don't necessarily want to chase somebody like Emanuel Quickley. And if Scotty is able to force the defense in rotation, a guy like Emanuel Cookie running around the court and getting those three-point opportunities can juice the Raptors in in a way that can help them win a few games.

>> Fellas, over and by the way, I just noticed Trey and I wearing glasses. You guys not. is uh the jocks and the nerds over here first.

>> Yeah, we've got uh pristine vision over here on the Chase down pod.

>> Oh yeah. Um, you guys are more well aware with Emanuel Quickley's playoff performances probably than most actually considering the >> the shades of the past. How do you guys feel about let's pretend Emanuel's there game one which I know is a big if but let's pretend hamstrings aren't a worrisome thing. How do you guys feel about him performing in the playoffs and I guess against this this Cavs team?

I >> before before Justin answers, it is so funny to hear someone else say against on on a [laughter] podcast because it's like the number one giveaway that Justin is Canadian on our pods and people are it's like the most consistent Canadianism that our chat will react to is they'll say against and [snorts] because no American has ever said it that way.

>> I'm so sorry to say I could not let that go unmentioned. [laughter] Thank you. Thank you, Carter, for for for getting me to blush and put some color into these very very pale cheeks. Um, but yeah, I I think Emanuel Quickley's availability and how effective he is when he plays is one of the biggest determining factors for me of how long I think this series is going to go. I think if he's limited physically, that's really really going to hurt the Raptors because I think he is essential to what they do in transition. I I think you know the the the pull-ups in transition things like that. Trey, I thought you brought up a great point of his ability to run around screens and cause some chaos there. As much as I really like I I think they should go with Jacobe Walter if IQ is in playing like I I think that that's probably your best matchup against Donovan, >> but going Jacobe or going Jamal Shed I just don't think is going to get the Cavs to scramble on the defensive end of the floor. And if BI is not able to get downhill against Dean Wade, which I I'm not saying is a foregone conclusion, but like if we're kind of rolling out the the string of what we think could happen in the series, if you're not able to get downhill in that way, you need to access other ways to get the Cavs into rotation. And I think IQ's gravity in those situations is one of those ways. And the other way is, you know, Samson, you mentioned that we played IQ. We also played RJ Barrett. and R.J. was very effective slashing to the basket in that series. Um, a lot of kind of what the Knicks were able to do on the offensive glass came in those single big minutes because what happened was RJ in particular would beat that first line of uh defense, right? He would get into the paint and Jared Allen would be forced to contest that shot and when you're playing in those single big minutes, there's no one else to clean up there, right? So, uh, even though he got a lot of the the crap for saying what everybody could see, which was that the the Cavs were not ready to play in that series, he he got blamed for a lot of it, but it was a structural thing that we have seen in those single big minutes. And I I think where the Raptors are probably, if they're going to extend the series, where they need to have success is in those staggered combinations. I think going to, you know, those Mamu lineups, I think, are going to be really important for them. I think, you know, when it's just James out there, can they get him to pick up the ball and slow him down with when it's just Donovan out there, are we able to take away the easy passing lanes and bait him into being, you know, someone that's going to score well, but not get other guys involved? I think that those are are the situations where they really need to kind of make their money.

>> I think that to answer the the IQ thing, I I I'm totally with Justin. The only thing I wanted to say and like I I think it's like sometimes gets uh confused when you have kind of these strength and numbers offenses where you know there's not one you know central figure that the entire Raptors offense revolves around. People look at that diversified offense and go oh man they they they can really uh they can take a hit. And I kind

Of find that those offenses are the ones that can least afford to take a hit because they have so many specialists that do so many that and and they don't have that like, you know, unifying force that can do a little bit of what that player that's gone uh brings to the table. And I think about the pullup three-point shooting for IQ and I just I'm just wondering where it is for them if it's not for him.

>> Park the pullup Trey. Come on. [laughter] Scoot up, brother. Um uh you know cuz like I I just that I keep going back to like that's kind of one of those things that like those straws that break the camel's back that just the Raptors won't have if he's not in the series and even though Jacobe has been shooting better. Um you know it's there's a different level of fear I think with an IQ and just IQ is just ability to like relocate off the ball when when that help comes. Um I I I I do think while I don't think he's inherently like a guy who's super scary for the Cavs to deal with, I just think the Raptors need him.

>> Yeah, it's it's going to be going to be huge. It's a big determin of how the series goes. Um, I think another key factor for this series, the Raptors won tons of games with their transitive lineups using those bench lineups like powered by like Jamal Shed, Mamunes Philly, um, and playing this pressing, aggressive style of defense while also running a ton. How do you feel about the r of the Cavs bench and dealing with that?

>> The Cavs bench is probably the part that I'm most confused about because we haven't seen, you know, the the full rotation. in game one might be the first time this season that they have had the full rotation. A big topic for us is how deep do the Cavs go. Um I I think both of us are kind of in favor of shortening a little bit going down to nine. I kind of anticipate Kenny's going to go 10 and play some Dennis. Maybe Dennis plays a shift in the second quarter and then we decide whether or not he plays again. Um, but I I think from our standpoint, like if the Cavs are putting their best foot forward, I I think I feel pretty good, you know, depending on what Kenny chooses to do. But the tricky thing about starting Dean is it does force you to go smaller in some of these other lineups, right? Like ideally Dean would be

>> you're only going to play Dean 20 to 25 minutes on on balance.

>> Right. Right. So, I I I think what I am hoping I see is that when when James is out there in kind of those staggered lineups, he's going to be paired uh with with Jared Allen. I'd like to see that be the Jaylen Tyson and Max Strus at the 34 like almost uh actually no I I want to see Sam and Max there maybe with uh Dean mixed in in that one and then the Donovan one have Jaylen Tyson out there with Keon Ellis and um yeah because I think that gives you supplemental playmaking. I think Jaylen Tyson's a little bit better when he gets the reps out there. Um, and if you're going to have one of those lineups without Dean in a big, I feel better about the ability to play power forward by committee if it's Max Juice and Jaylen Tyson out there rather than just one of them. So, I I think

>> Keon there mucking stuff up.

>> Right. Right. And Keon can kind of uh, you know, spot up. Jaylen Tyson alleviates some pressure on Don and doesn't get into that pure point Donovan uh, type thing that that we're not a huge fan of. So, I think I'd like to see that go that way, but I can also see Kenny going deeper, playing a lot of Dennis Shruder and trying uh, you know, different things and maybe having some of those three, four guard lineups out there. To me, I think that's going to be a really interesting swing for the series is those Donovan uh Donovan without James lineups because I think if the Raptors are able to uh to use, you know, the the chaotic bench lineups to muck up the offense, get Donovan playing ISO ball and force Kenny into adding a second point guard or a second guard into those lineups and forcing Dennis in given Dennis's Dennis is small and Dennis can't shoot, you know, and I think those are two big wins for the Raptors in in that matchup. Um, and even though Dennis can get downhill, which is maybe not exactly the Raptor strength, I think they probably would rather force the Cavs into that than to have to play against all of the Cavs size. Because one thing that's really nice for the Cavs, if they don't have Dennis in the lineup is you have Donovan at, you know, 61, 6'2, then everyone else is 6'4, 65 or bigger. So, like you don't have quite as much wing size advantage as you would if the Caps have to play two small guards because they're not in the Darius Garland uh you know, business anymore or or even the Tai Jerome business where you know well he's 6'5 he certainly didn't guard like he was 6'5. Um uh like I I think I think they're just a little bit more flexible with their size than they were in years past. The thing that I think is so interesting is that if I were the Cavs, I think probably the best lineup to start games in the series and manage the bench aspect of things, I would start Streus at the three for some of the things that we said about how Brandon wasn't seeming and doesn't seem to drive the basketball regardless of who's there because he he loves the midtering shot. He's great at it. um that you might not suffer there. And if the Raptors are able to successfully frontload defense and move the ball west and east, Strus being there is actually like a really great option and it allows you to be more liberal in how you play the big man with Dean Wade coming off the bench because Jamal Shed against transitional lineups, he might be able to find more avenues to driving the paint and and kicking the ball and making things happen. And I think the Cavs, it would be a lot of trouble for them if suddenly the Raptors are getting into the paint a lot with their bench because their bench can't like Mamu can shoot fine enough. Yes. But the bench on large is led by a point guard who's like, you know, 36% from the field. It's not scary in a traditional sense, but when he's punching gaps, suddenly offense comes around. like the Raptors, I think their half court offense, the biggest guy in terms of on-offs is RJ Barrett and then Jameson Battle and then Emanuel Quickley. It isn't actually their a lot of their like uh it's not Scotty, it's not Brandon and uh Jamal Shed continues to win minutes despite the fact that he can't shoot. And if the tempo of the bench in transitional lineups goes towards the Raptors, then suddenly Jamal Shed, a guy who would probably be extremely ineffective playing a slower game, suddenly you're getting maybe, oh, this guy's a nice guard that we have to contend with. And I really wonder how that goes. I also am so interested about Dennis Shruder if he starts and how have that second bring up ball handler, how that affects things. I will tell you guys though about something else. Beer everybody. Basketball. It can be stressful, but your choice of beer. It doesn't have to be. Cororsite delivers a mountain cold refreshment. When the mountain turns blue, the beer's as cold and refreshing as a Rockies. Cororsite is cold augered, cold filtered, and cold certified for a smoother finish. Celebrate responsibly, people. You must be of legal drinking age as well. Do not embibe if you are not of legal drinking age. Pullup tray is against underage drinking. Uh you can find Cororsite near you at visit cororsiteshop.ca. Okay, Trey, the the pod is in your hands, brother. Let me switch over to the tuni bet there. We can go again. We can go again,

>> man. I could trust.

>> Max Streus was a man with a beer in his hand uh postgame recently, too. So, perfect tie.

>> I love Max.

>> Dur during our our our draft season pots, um Jaylen Tyson was one of our favorite prospects heading into heading into that class. both Jacobe Walter and Jaylen Tyson actually.

>> Um,

>> we were in the same boat. Yeah, we like them both.

>> I think he's gonna be a huge part of the the Cavs run whether in this series or future series. How do you feel about him this year and his role heading into the playoffs?

>> I love Jaylen Tyson. I love the draft wars between these teams. You know, it's Evan Mobley versus Scotty Barnes. We got Jacobe Walter versus Jaylen Tyson. Like I I

>> That's what the national media is going to be talking about. The Walter Tyson match.

>> Absolutely. it it's what it's going to be about. Um Jaylen Tyson's giving me PTSD right now. Um you know coming off of the toe injury. Uh obviously we are overly

>> we don't like toes here in Cavs Town.

>> Yeah. Not not not big feet guys uh on on the chase down. Uh [laughter] but I I I think Jaylen Tyson is insanely important for the Cavs because so much of the conversation the last couple years has been can you win with a small back court, right? Like that was always the thing. despite like I think the common narrative is oh that got picked apart in the playoffs. They never lost on defense. The offense would fall apart. And I I think the more accurate conversation is how many teams have won with a point guard and shooting guard as their two best players. Like I I think it's just as rare, right? The only time that teams win with guys that are offensive engines being, you know, the the point guard and the shooting guard is if they have front court players that can alleviate the pressure, right? Think Draymond Green with the Warriors. Uh the Raptors, you know, even though they didn't start Kyle Lowry and Fred Van Vleet, you had Marcus Sully that you could run stuff through. You, you know, Pascal was an outlet. Kawawaii was obviously an outlet, right? I think Jaylen Tyson, why we've been so high on him is he fills in a lot of those gaps. He's someone that can take some initiation responsibility but makes good decisions as you know a secondary initiator as well. Uh he can contribute on the offensive glass. He can get you some extra possessions. He can play with toughness. You can have him you know play some power forward. I think the versatility and his ability to fill a variety of different roles is what has us so excited. And we did not anticipate the three-point shooting would be as good as [clears throat] it's been this year. like that's just a guy that has like an absolutely insane work ethic. Um, you know, it was a question of how much of a role he was going to earn this year and he fought and clawed and got all of those minutes and I thought they were really welld deserved.

>> Uh, put simply, I think the Cavs have at times have been uh too uh have leaned too hard into specializing roles uh for for their players. you know, they have the play initiators and then they have the play finishers and then they have the guys who are shooters or defenders or you know, like whatever, you know, George Niang or Isaac Cororo and uh you know, they have not really dabbled with a lot of generalists, especially among their role player core and um you know, I think this year if you're looking for reasons to feel really good about the Cavs depth is that they really do have one in Jaylen Tyson, a guy who can guard a little, who can shoot a little, who can play make a little, who can rebound a little, um, and kind of just do all those little things. Uh, I also, you know, one of my favorite things I've seen said about the way Jaylen plays is he he just plays the game as it unfolds in front of him. He's not someone who, um, spend who like on the court, you can really you don't really see him thinking a lot about his role or what he's supposed to do. Like he just makes the makes the play right in front of his face. And I think the Cavs kind of like it's a team of very thoughtful lads uh who are always, you know, and I think sometimes someone who just kind of plays off instinct is actually really valuable for them. Like I always joke about Evan Mobley as someone who's being cursed with options. Like he's got so many things he can do that sometimes he doesn't know which one to pick. And like I think Jaylen just plays the game so instinctually. And I think writ large like the to kind of expand the you know the the the aperture a little bit like I think that you can kind of say that about a lot of the Cavs role players like Max Stru I think is actually while he has the reputation as a shooter I think is a generalist he rebounds he playm makes

>> uh he does all those things. Sam Merrill, a guy who um uh in at media day told me and Justin that he was working on expanding his game and you know I how many times do you hear a shooter say that and like I'm going to get better at [laughter] attacking closeouts and uh and hitting the midi and getting to the rim and and even even in front of him I was kind of like just in the back of my mind be like all right brother we'll believe it when we see it we're seeing him do that kind of stuff a lot better

>> and it's a maximile I'm going to keep making that pun in three times. Dustin's favorite punt is that Sam is a is a Max Emily, but he is also an elite three-point shooter as well as obviously what he does. But you just kind of look at this role player core and it's just more guys who can do a little bit of everything. And I do think that'll help when teams are keying in putting and and messing up some of those pet actions that that kind of get the the Cav stars exactly what they want. Like you need to have those release valves. And you know, I think that's was a big takeaway from the Pacers series was having five, six, seven guys who could initiate in their own way and help in their own way and felt safe to do so. I think the Cavs are a lot in a lot better shape uh to operate that way going into this postseason somewhat due to necessity because everyone died all year. I think one of one of the most interesting things about these teams facing one another is that they both seem like bad shooting teams on their face, but then you realize one team was pretty healthy with the guys who are supposed to take jumpers and the other team is like when we were going through the film earlier.

>> The ball was always it was like Lonzo again, always Lonzo is the guy shooting it. You know what I mean? Very very little of the Jaylen Tyson 45% three-point tape made it into the package. But the Raptors, they have, I think objectively, less offensive talent. They somehow piece their way to a top five defense, which Scotty Barnes, here's your first team all defense. Congrats. You know, you'll get some votes for defensive player of the year, of course. But the guy who hasn't gotten enough positive attention from us yet in this conversation. You guys decide if you want to or not. But RJ Barrett, as you mentioned before, Justin, his slashing was imperative to how the Knicks were operating for the Raptors. They, even though all the guys who score are in the starting lineup, they still do transitional lineups. They still do all this kind of stuff. What do you guys make of RJ Barrett heading into this series? And especially if the Raptors decide like we want to approach this more multiaceted than just trying to hunt mismatches with Brandon Ingram and and work from there, bend the defense or even pushing in transition. When it slows down, the Raptors by the onoff numbers and by the I guess the efficiency numbers for RJ Barrett, go figure. He is one of their best halfcourt players. What What does he do to the Cavs defense? I because he'll put pressure on it. It's not like James. I assume it's that's the first thing. Is it gonna be James Harden? Is it

>> Jamesarden? I think it's gonna be James. Donovan is the guy they will always put on the the the biggest non-threatensive end of the floor. That's just they have not deviated from that and it doesn't seem like they plan to.

>> Okay. So, how James Harden versus RJ Barrett? We talked probably like 20 minutes of like Jesus Harden's tough to stop. Does R.J. inspire any uh problem solving from the calf side? I think so. Like I I'm I'm an RJ fan. Like I I think I think he's underappreciated and I think he's, you know, going back to what we talked about before where Raptors have so many contributors. I think he's a really important piece to this puzzle offensively. The one of the concerns that I have about the Cavs ability to have a deep playoff run compared to last year when when they were fully healthy is they're just low on point of attack guys. like they don't have guys that get a loss. Like it's basically Dean Wade, it's Jaylen Tyson, but Jaylen Tyson's got a toe injury and we need to see what his mobility looks like, right? Like when you compare it to last year where that Isaac Coral that was an option, Darius Garland would do a good job staying in front of his man. Max Struce wasn't coming off a Jones fracture that limits his ability to move side to side like his foot speed and lateral quickness is not there. Samson, like if it was last year's Max Duce, I agree with you. He's the the guy you start you start no matter what. And you know Dean Wade's going to be that second big. I think that makes the rotation a million times easier. But that's just not the reality right now. Like

>> and even Keon who who is a great defender on ball defense is not the thing that he is

>> that he

>> he's an event defender. He's not a stopper. He's not going to suppress attempts in that way. So, I think if I'm feeling good about the Dean Wade on Brandon Ingram matchup, I think R.J.'s that wild card because I think if RJ Stark is getting downhill, that opens up everything else that gets the Cavs into rotation. You can attack the Cavs when they're destabilized. I think the absence of, you know, solid consistent point of attack defense has led to some overhelping and some breakdowns in communication. Particularly for a group that hasn't spent a lot of time together, you're going to see those types of lapses. I think defense takes longer to figure out from a communication standpoint than offense. So, I I think RJ is actually one of the most important swing parts of of, you know, this series. I think for me, I just keep going back to like this is why where it's so hard for me because I don't know my own team very well, but you know, like James James has not been a good point of attack defender in Cleveland. Um, but you know, a lot of that is attention to detail and March basketball and uh which you know, we know isn't always the most correlative uh month of the year. uh like what does James giving 20% better of focus uh and effort and sliding his feet just a little bit more on that side of the floor do? Um like cuz like if cuz yeah, based on what I know, I'm definitely worried about R.J. because he's one of the guys who I think is going to be able to turn the corner on his man and he's got the skill to to do something with it. Um, and the Cavs in rotation means that guys like Scotty Barnes and Yakob Purle can get the duckins with and get easy finishing angles that they otherwise wouldn't against the Cav Shell defense. So, yeah, I think I think right now I'm definitely concerned and again, I know we keep saying this, but like it's one of those like if R.J. isn't consistently turning the corner and getting downhill. Like again, I just think it's going to be a short series, but I think there's a very good chance he's able to.

>> Okay, so before I swing this over to Trey for one last piece of RJ positivity, he again has the best onoffs for the Raptors half court scoring. If you go to the synergy play types, by the way, the synergy apocalypse happened just the other day. Rest in peace to everybody who got kicked off their Boro Synergy account. Oh. Oh, it's terrible. And uh R.J. also he just extremely efficient producing offense for these Raptors. Where does RJ fit in this series for you, Trey?

>> Yeah, I I think the the RJ Purtole pick and roll is going to be a great source of offense for them. Um it's been effective for them all year. You're putting James in actions that you don't that the Cavs don't want him to be be in and it'll give R.J. a chance to actually get downhill and put either Moy or Jared Allen in in a twoon-one situation. And the Raptors should be able to do that in the half court like fairly consistently. He's going to be relied on to be a play finisher in a lot of actions as well. Like when Scotty has the ball and and the the Cavs are walled up, R.J. usually is on the other other side either spotting up or cutting to to then create opportunities within that space. So for for them to win, he's going to have to steal them a game. Typically when the Raptors have beaten good teams, it's R.J. having 25 26 points on 12 shots. Super effective with also six.

>> There's that efficiency that I that I was looking for when I was asking about BI.

>> Yeah, they're the total opposite. So, they're going to need a couple games like that from him and he his shooting is going to be so important for for them to play on the half court against a team like this.

>> Yeah. Okay, we're heading into the last thing, fellas. The last topic everyone's picking, but I will say this segment is a presentation of Tony Bet online sports book casino. Thousands of slot games live casino at your fingertips and a sports book made for Ontario. Get your game on a Tony Bet. Tony Bet is licensed and regulated by the AGCO and I gaming Ontario 19 plus Ontario only. Please play responsibly. I beg of you people please please play responsibly. They we have numbers. The money says minus 589 for the Cleveland Cavaliers. What does that mean to a person? I don't know. It says plus 400 for the Toronto Raptors. What does that mean to a person? I don't know if you're betting. You do. But for the four men here, we're not picking 589 or 400. We're picking how many games and for which team. Carter, let's start with you, brother. What's this series going to be?

>> Uh I'm going Cavs and six. Um uh I think that uh I don't think that this is a Cavs in six on talent. I think the Cavs uh if they had continuity, if they had health um uh and had a more established track record with this with this group, I you know, I think this is a Cavs and five uh kind of kind of play. But like I just think this team is going to be tested. Um uh and some of the things they're not good at are things that the Raptors are good at. Um, so while I think they have a lot of advantages and I think they should eventually, you know, put the series away, I think there's going to be a lot of discovery going on. I I keep pointing the fact that, um, when the Raptors go on a run and Kenny goes to put in a lineup to try to stop the bleeding, he's going to be making his best guess on that lineup because none of them have enough reps for him to know confidently that they're going to take away one thing or another. can. While I trust in Kenny to make, you know, as informed of decisions as as he can, whenever you're dealing with guesswork, that makes it hard for me to predict a short series. So, I'm going Cavs and six.

>> Justin,

>> I think it's going to come down to game one. Um, I think, you know, coming off basically a week off where both teams get to do a mini training camp, but also play a 100 p.m. game, which just lends itself to weirdness. And the Cavs have been awful in these afternoon games. I I think if there's two of them

>> I I think if there's a game Toronto steals in Cleveland, it's going to be game one. If the Cavs manage to win that game, I do think that the series goes five. Um I expect Toronto to definitely get one at home. If I had to guess, it'll be game four because that is also a 1 p.m. start and [laughter] the Cavs are just abysmal in those uh in that window. Um, the other big factor for me is I'm assuming Emanuel Quickley isn't going to be playing for game one. Um, maybe, you know, game two and, you know, physically limited. He's got the planter ficitis. He's got the, you know, the the hammy. Um, those are things that linger and can flare up. If IQ was healthy, I'd probably would be with Carter and I would say, you know, Kasin 6. I'm going to go Kasin 5, though.

>> Okay. Trey, do you have any hope or are you gonna get your ass blasted in the comments, brother?

>> Raptors fans, when when no one was predicting us to win more than 45 games, this guy said we would.

>> Oh, he's he's preparing.

>> I I I want I want to give myself a, you know, I I'm sure I made some fans in the comments mad. I did say that I thought the Raptors were going to make playoffs and avoid the playin at the start of the season. So, I was a believer in this group. I was a BI fan.

>> Proceed.

>> Okay. Emanuel Quickley is severely hurt. I think it would be asking a lot of a lot of him to have a very productive series. And in the the Raptors season when it looked like it was nose diving came at the point in time where he was injured and they forced Jamal to play heavy minutes and lead the back court. I I don't think they're going to do that as much. I think they're going to ask Scotty to do a lot on both ends. I think for for that reason it's it's going to be Cavs in five. I think they're going to be I think they're going to be able to steal game one. Just it's a a weird funky time. The Raptors play with tons of intensity, tons of effort, and usually in in first round series, it's the the super spunky team playing super hard, winning the game, getting underestimated, and being able to steal that. So, I think they they steal game one, but then lose the rest, sadly.

>> Wow. Even a little bit more specific. I'm gonna I'm gonna come in endless and Trey probably will message me privately after and be like, "You coward, you pathetic coward." But the thing that is so, you know, difficult is the Emanuel Quickley thing. Because I would, oh, I would love to just say that it, you know, the Raptors, there's some physicality stuff they can win. They can change the shape of how and then how does basketball manifest afterwards. So many people in the comments are saying just do what the Pacers did. I would love for the Raptors to do what the Pacers did. [laughter]

>> Benjuring DeAndre Hunter for no reason. The dirty plays all up and down. The the ref blowing. You have to win. You have to win that game too where there are free throw line violations out the wazoo where Smith would be able to block Seakam's free throw. He was so [laughter] damn in the paint already.

>> Did some drama come out there? I'm sorry I blanked out.

>> I'll tell you what, at least the same way Raptors fans have 2019, Cleveland has 2016 no matter what. I mean,

>> that that's one of the best both those series are actually incredible. Both both those uh those runs, but

>> the Raptors uh when I was covering that Pacers series, I picked the Pacers. Uh we didn't make a pick against the Cavs actually uh in that episode. We did, but I was that was a really a tossup to me. I was very surprised that went five. But for me, you watched the episodes, Justin, you know, we talked about the injuries a lot mattering. I thought the Pacers would win against the Knicks. I thought the Pacers would do a really good job against the Thunder, but ultimately lose. And I thought the Pacers would beat the Bucks. I don't see the Raptors winning this series, unfortunately. Maybe if everyone's healthy and we get to talk about you guys, not, you know, Kenny doesn't know what this lineup does or this and, you know, maybe Harden slumps into old bad habits and, you know, X Y and Zed. But I I'll match with Carter. I'll say Cavs in six, but I would like Cavs in seven or Raptors in seven so we can come back up to Cleveland and I can show uh Trey Jimmyi Hendricks's guitar for a second. Look, he played this bad boy. You know what I'm saying? This is my last thing actually. Is there any suggestions about what we should do in Cleveland?

>> Yes.

>> Funny enough, neither of us are in market. [laughter] I'm in Columbus and Justin's in Winnipeg. So, we're probably like the worst Cleveland tour guys.

>> No, we're not because we get to go and I I get to vacation in Cleveland when I come and [clears throat] cover some games.

>> Um

>> Carter, do you want to give some hints though?

>> I'll say quickly. I asked Bob as well and he's from Buffalo. None of you damn guys are from Cleveland. What's going on, man?

>> My my problem Winnipeg is Cleveland of the North Children, so I come to the game and get out.

>> So Justin, go ahead. [laughter]

>> Well, the food is fantastic. That's You can't go wrong with that. Carter and I usually get some good barbecue there. Carter, why am I drawing a blank? Uh

>> Mabels. Yes, get get some barbecue at Mabels for sure. Um I I like walking around the downtown. I think it's really walkable, but the the food to me is always the big thing when I'm in Cleveland. I always enjoy it.

>> Mabel's Barbecue. Okay, we'll have like four days. So, I think we'll probably go to Mabel's Barbecue. I think there's some cool museums there, too. I've I've enjoyed them. Balto is there. Balto, are you a big Balto guy? I went with my wife. We went to the museum and we saw Balto. He is stuffed and the eyes look lifeless and it freaked me out.

>> That is terrifying. [laughter]

>> Very good. Uh, do you guys want to promote the show or anything before we get out of here?

>> Sure. Check out the Chase Down. You guys know how to find podcasts? Wherever you found this podcast, you can find the Chase down there. So, uh, we we appreciate you guys checking that out. Again, we did a series preview with S and really really appreciate you guys for having us on. This was a lot of fun.

>> Yeah.

>> Carter, anything from you, sir.

>> No. Uh, only thing I'll note is, uh, if you are a video podcast person, we're on the Cavs YouTube channel. Um, uh, so you can find us there.

>> Bit braggy.

>> Oh, yeah. Trey, do you want do you want to do you want to close us out?

>> You want to do do the job? It's been great as a as a LeBron fan. I I've watched your guys' pod several times throughout the years, so it's awesome to have you guys here. Oh,

>> thanks, man. Appreciate that. Thank you.

>> It It was great. I We We talk about LeBron at Nauseium. We have like our index for LeBron is [laughter]

>> Dustin's got the more complicated relationship of the two. I always tease him that he loves LeBron, but he doesn't like him. Yeah, I was ready for him to leave after 2018 while also having him as my goat and probably still my favorite player ever.

>> What last question? You could just say yes or no.

>> LeBron retirement tour in in Cleveland. Yes or no?

>> It feels I felt like it was definitely happening like a couple months ago and I'm it feels like the the embers are cooling but I don't know. It's all we don't have any inside insult. That's for damn sure.

>> I'm I'm I'm guessing no, but it would be very cool. I I'd be very very happy to see that.

>> It be it would be the perfect ending. Tears to my eyes.

>> Take take the minimum. Take the mid-level exception. That is a perfect slot in between James Hart and Donovan Mitchell, Evan Mobley, and Jared.

>> They all settle for LeBron at the minimum.

>> Yeah,

>> they f they're finally the big wing. You have the big wing.

>> Yeah, there.

>> There he is. Dean Dean Wade with a little more.

>> Yeah, [laughter]

>> just just a bit.

>> Okay. Um, for Cass Spence, for Spence, thank you for for listening to this. I'm excited about this series and we'll see you guys later.