Transcription
I used to be a Mormon, and so I was very religious. Where I was looking at, you know, the history of Joseph Smith, and he was obviously a fraud, right? We know he was. Sorry, Mormons that are out there. We know he is, right?
"Can't believe you're saying it, but I'm very excited you're saying it."
Well, Joseph Smith said some crazy. Can I say that? Sorry. Sorry. Can't say that. He, he said...
"I wouldn't say it that way, but I agree."
Well, well, he did, right?
"He did."
A former Mormon challenges Cliff on faith and truth. After walking away from the LDS church, he now questions whether belief in God is rational at all. Cliff pushes back, arguing that everyone lives by faith. The only question is what you're putting your faith in. He points to Jesus, claiming the historical evidence for his life, death, and resurrection gives the strongest foundation for trust. What argument makes the most sense to you? Comment below. Now, let's dive in.
Said that you believe that Jesus is the way, uh, not because you have faith in him, but because, uh, you look at the evidence and you came to the conclusion that based on eyewitness testimony that he was, uh, he had to be the Son of God, right? Is that, is that what your position is? That it's not faith, it was probability and evidence that led you to that, right?
"No."
"Okay."
"Thanks for pressing for that."
"Okay."
"I just want to, you bet, before I, you know, present my next question, I want to make sure I don't misrepresent what you're saying, right?"
"If you ask me,"
"Yeah."
"Cliff, why do you believe in Jesus?" And I say, "Because I believe."
"Right."
"I find that to be scary."
"Okay. Yeah. That is..."
"I am scared when I ask somebody, 'Why do you believe whatever it is you believe?' And they answer me, 'Cuz I believe.'"
"I find that embarrassing. I find that scary."
"Right."
"So, whenever anybody asks me, why do you believe in Jesus Christ?"
"I don't say because I have faith. I think that's really weak. And intellectually, I got real problems with it."
"Okay."
"Instead, what I say is, I believe in Jesus because the historical evidence, not proof. I've been over backwards to distance myself from the word proof. No, can't prove anything."
"The historical evidence of the way he lived, taught, died, and rose from the dead point to his trustworthiness."
"Okay?"
"That's why I have taken a step of faith. Everybody has a worldview. Meaning by that, everybody has to struggle through the question, am I worth anything or not? And that's tied to where do I come from? Secondly, is there a purpose to my life, or is life ultimately meaningless? Thirdly, now that I am here, how am I going to live my life ethically? Cheat, lie, truth, honest. We all have to make those decisions. And fourthly, what about after death? What happens?"
"Okay. None of us can prove anything, but we all have faith that whatever we're living for is reliable. So when I say faith in Christ, I mean the evidence is he's reliable, and I choose him instead of one of the options."
"Okay. But those four things that you listed right there, what you're basically saying is that Christianity answers all those things for you?"
"In a way that is so intellectually satisfying, it's far superior to any other philosophy I've been exposed to."
"Okay. I just want to make sure that I get that right. So..."
"You've been telling people, right?"
"Yeah. To go home and read the Bible."
"I don't know which translation."
"Gospels. I don't care what the translation, as long as it's an accurate translation."
"Okay. So..."
"King James is that, that's okay. Uh, you know, preferably if you had the original Aramaic, you would say that's, uh, was it Aramaic? Was that the original..."
"Text was written in Greek?"
"Okay. So, but if you had that and you, let's say you even had that, okay, and you read it."
"Yeah."
"Um, but you came to a different conclusion."
"Yep. That Christianity is not. It doesn't answer those questions for you. It doesn't answer, uh, what you think about the afterlife. If you say you don't really think Jesus is..."
"The guy that he says he is, right?"
"Yep."
"Are they wrong? Or are you, are you okay with that? Or I mean, have you, I, I assume you're out here to spread the word of salvation, right? You're trying to get people to think the same way you do. Is that correct?"
"No."
"Or am I... Okay."
"I'm not out here to get people to think the same way I do."
"But you are trying to get them to accept Jesus Christ as their savior, right?"
"I'm, I'm out here to introduce people to my closest friend, Jesus Christ."
"Okay. But if they go out and read the Bible and they come to a different conclusion..."
"Yeah."
"...are they wrong?"
"They are either right or wrong."
"The same way I am either right or wrong. So..."
"Okay. So, it's, it's, it's an either-or situation. It's not shades of gray. It's not..."
"Well, there are shades of gray. But due to the fact that Jesus made truth claims, I either accept that as being true and reliable, or I reject it."
"Okay."
"Him. I reject him, or I accept it. Same with Muhammad."
"Right?"
"All religions are the same. That's a truth claim."
"And guess what? That truth claim contradicts the majority of people on this planet."
"That's right. I mean, it contradicts..."
"Right? So it means it's either right..."
"...or wrong."
"Right?"
"Right. I mean, uh, well, when you say that, okay."
"Yeah."
"Are you saying that one out of all those religions is true? I mean, I don't want to rephrase two questions that have already been put forward, right?"
"No, I love your thinking. All right."
"If I say one religion is true, that's a truth claim. If I say five religions are true, that's a truth claim. If I say all religions are equally true, that's a truth claim. You see, guys, unless you're simply going to say, 'Well, there's an opinion,' you're making a truth claim. I don't care if you say one religion is true, five religions are true, or all religions are true. When you make each one of those statements, you are making a truth claim."
"Okay."
"Right."
"Yeah. It's okay."
"I mean, it's a claim."
"Yeah."
"Right. I mean, I'm, I'm confused when you say the word truth claim."
"Yes."
"That's assuming that the person, and I don't want to argue semantics right now, it's assuming that the person saying that actually believes that whatever they're saying is true, right?"
"Yeah."
"Doesn't mean it's true for everyone."
"Obviously. Oh, no. No. Wait a second."
"If a Muslim says to me, 'Islam is the truth.' They're not just saying, 'For me, Islam is the truth.' They're saying in reality..."
"Right. It's, I mean, it's the same people that think that the, that you're, what is it? The sun goes around the earth, right? There's actually, there's a group in Illinois called the Galileo is wrong people, right? They have a convention every year..."
"...and they legitimately believe that, you know, if the earth does not go around the sun based on..."
"...you know, they're obviously a fringe group, right? But they're making a truth claim."
"Yeah."
"But it's obviously not correct, right? We all, we would all agree."
"But if I say to you, 2 plus 2 equals 4, is that a truth claim?"
"Oh, come on, guys. If I say 2 plus 2 equals 4, is that a truth claim?"
"Yes. Thank you."
"That's a truth claim."
"It's a claim."
"No, no, no, no, no. It's a claim, and we know that it's true because we can empirically prove it, right? We know every, every scenario where we have two and you add two more things to it, you always get four. There's never been a situation or a scenario where we haven't gotten four. It's never happened. George Washington was the first president of the United States. Is that a truth claim?"
"Yes. Thank you. Like it or not, guys, you make truth claims. Everybody does. So now the question becomes, are you in touch with the truth or not? Obviously, Jesus Christ made an incredible claim. He claimed to be the truth. He claimed to be God in human form. He's either lying out to lunch, blowing smoke, or else he's claimed to be God in human form. He's made it a truth claim. Now, here's what I am getting to resent. As I speak on university campuses, as I hear this line of thinking, 'If you believe that Jesus is the only way to God, you are arrogant, intolerant, and prone to violence.' You know why that's so dishonest?"
"Well, I mean, you're putting people in a box when you say that. And you know, I mean, it's not true, right?"
"Thank you. Why is it not true?"
"That's a straw man, right?"
"Well, why is that not true? Yeah, but I hear that from professors, sir. I debate professors and I hear that one from a lot of professors. Like, if I tell you 2 plus 2 equals 4, is that arrogant? No. It's a truth claim, right? Now, if you say to me, 2 plus 2 equals 5, that's when arrogance or humility is going to be shown. That's when tolerance or intolerance are going to be shown. It's when you and I have a disagreement. Whatever the disagreement is about, that's when we're either going to see tolerance and humility, or we're going to see arrogance and intolerance. But to make a truth claim, 'Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life.' 'Muhammad is the truth.' 'The avatars of Hinduism are the truth.' It's not arrogance. It's not intolerance. It's not to mean you're prone to violence. It means you're making a truth claim. Now, how you respond to people who disagree with you, that'll display whether you're an arrogant twit, an intolerant twit, and prone to violence. Fair enough."
"Yeah. I mean, I, I, I think, let me, I think what you're saying is you're making a truth claim, right?"
"Correct."
"Hindus are making a truth claim, right?"
"Right."
"Muslims are making a truth claim, right?"
"Right."
"And what they believe is, they believe what they're saying is actually true, right?"
"Atheists are making a truth claim. Agnostics are making a truth claim."
"I, I don't know about atheists making a truth."
"Oh, come on."
"An atheist is saying, 'I know the universe so well. I know there is no God.' If that ain't a truth claim, I don't know what is."
"No, no, no. Most. Well, then it depends on what your definition of an atheist is, right?"
"Just look it up."
"An atheist is someone who says, 'I know there is no God.' An agnostic is someone who says, 'I'm not sure. I don't know.'"
"So, if you're a hard atheist, you're saying, 'I know there is no God.' If you're an agnostic, you're saying, 'I don't know.' Okay, I'll agree with those definitions. If you want to go down that route, that's fine. I mean, I mean, most people technically you're supposed to categorize atheists as agnostic atheists or agnostic atheists, starting with a G, G N O S T, right? Gnostic atheists are the ones that say, 'I know there is no God.' And that is an unscientific position to have, right? Because I can't go around, uh, proving people wrong. I'm sure you've already gotten 18 questions on this, right? But I can't go around proving that God doesn't exist, right?"
"Good."
"It just means that like you said, you've put out what you think is a truth claim. I've looked at that and I've said..."
"It hasn't satisfied me. I'm not, I'm not convinced."
"Yep."
"And we can both go our separate ways and we're fine, right?"
"Yeah."
"Um, so I, I, I, I just want to make sure that we're all, uh, Right. You can't put everybody in a box, right?"
"Not everybody thinks the same way. I think you've done a good job saying that, right?"
"Hope so. Yeah. I mean, I guess my central question was, you know, last semester we had those Hindu monks that were walking around. They were giving out the Bhagavad Gitas."
"Good."
"Okay. And they believe what they were saying was true. And I guess..."
"Yes."
"...and I respect them."
"Well, I mean, I mean, you're saying that if you accept Jesus, you'll eventually get salvation, right?"
"If you accept Jesus, you, he promises you'll go to heaven, right?"
"Yep. I don't want to, I'm not so versed in Hinduism, but I, I can assume that along the way to Nirvana, or I'm sorry, that's Buddhism. Sorry."
"No, both Hinduism and Buddhism, or you're headed toward, hopefully you're going to Nirvana."
"If you go along the right path, what is the eight steps or whatever it is, right? You, you will achieve enlightenment."
"Yeah. If not..."
"Yeah."
"...and that's their version of salvation, right?"
"So, it is possible then that both truth claims can be right and both people can reach salvation?"
"No. Because they contradict each other."
"I'm either here or not here."
"So you look at both..."
"I'm not both here and not here."
"So you're looking at both truth claims and you're saying that me, Cliff, I'm saying that my Christian one is correct?"
"No, I'm saying the evidence is that Jesus Christ is reliable in a way that none of the options are."
"Okay?"
"Don't take it from me. Read the Quran. Read the Vedas and Upanishads. Read the Gospels and ask yourself, what does the evidence point to? If you're a searcher after truth, if you want to live in reality, you owe it to yourself as a thinking human being to seriously explore the options that you think are good options. All I'm doing here is standing here saying Jesus Christ is a great option. I can't prove him. The evidence is he's reliable. You got to check him out. Read the Gospels for yourself. Don't take it from me. As a thinking human being, go to the source document. Matthew, Mark, Luke, John. Read it for yourself."
"Okay. So, as a final point, this is my my final, final..."
"I'm sorry to hear that. I like talking with you."
"Oh, no. Well..."
"We can keep going if you want. I mean..."
"I'd love to."
"I'm afraid people will go in circles, but, uh, I mean, your, your conclusion is..."
"...that the Christian truth claim is more correct than the Hindu one that I just stated because the, there's more evidence to support your position."
"To support chief."
"I just want to make sure that was actually my first question was that, that that's what you're saying. Jesus is the way because there's more evidence that points to him."
"Everything in my worldview is based on Jesus Christ. Which means..."
"I better study and figure out, is Jesus reliable or is he not? Because if the evidence is Jesus Christ is not reliable, I'm an idiot for believing in him. But if the evidence is Jesus is reliable, I'm an idiot for not believing in him. So, I better check him out."
"Okay."
"Very carefully."
"What about all the biblical scholars like, uh, Bart Ehrman? I can't remember a second guy. Okay. So, you've heard of him, right?"
"Not only have I heard about Bart, I've debated him."
"Oh, you. Okay?"
"At dinner with a guy."
"Okay. Uh, and I, I read his book."
"And, sorry, I used to be a Mormon. Um, and so I was very religious. I don't want to get into a personal story with me anyway, but I fell out of it."
"And, and I mean, the same principles that I used to get out of Mormonism where I was looking at, you know, the history of Joseph Smith and he was obviously a fraud, right? We know he was. Sorry, Mormons that are out there. He, you got to go. Uh, we, we know he is, right?"
"Probably was."
"I can't believe you're saying it, but I'm very excited you're saying it."
"Okay. Well..."
"Yeah. I mean, so, so you're right. I mean, I using..."
"Joseph Smith without looking at reality."
"Looking at, uh, I mean, down there, Church of Scientology. I read a, just I just recently read a book called Going Clear, all about L. Ron Hubbard. I mean, the guy was such a charlatan."
"Thank you."
"You're right."
"And you're right. And you..."
"You said it, not me, though."
"Yeah. Well, they'll probably sue me. They'll probably sue me, but that's okay. Uh..."
"But I mean..."
"They better not. But, you know, using the same principles of of logic and and reason and, you know, Joseph Smith said some crazy ass. Can I say that? Sorry. Sorry. Can I say that? He's he said..."
"I wouldn't say it that way, but I agree."
"Well, well, he did, right?"
"He did."
"He definitely did."
"Holy. The guy was incredible."
"And, and what's even better is that I believed him for 15 years. Okay. I'm..."
"Sorry."
"Right."
"You know, I, I had to, uh, believe that horses lived in North America for 15 years before Columbus got here. There were elephants and everything. It's crazy, crazy stuff."
"Yeah."
"But when you look at, you know, the evidence, history of the church and whatnot, the same thing goes with Scientologists. Yep."
"It becomes disillusioned."
"Yes."
"And, and when I apply those same principles to Christianity, because I really did go searching after I lost my faith."
"Yeah. And, and I, and I came to the same conclusion that it's, it's in order for me to be satisfied, I need to have, I know you don't like the word proof, but beyond reasonable doubt evidence to support a claim, right? And, and for Ehrman, some other biblical scholars that, you know, look at the history of the Bible and the way it's written, a lot of them come to the conclusions that, you know, Jesus most likely existed, right? I agree with that. All the evidence points to that. Um, but there's just so much afterwards, manipulation. Um, a lot of mistranslations going on. Uh, I'm sure you're, you're more well-versed in this than me, because I'm, you study the Bible, right? History of it, Matthew, Mark, Q document, whatnot."
"But when you look at all that stuff, I just say there's, there's way too many, uh, things that we don't understand, not enough evidence to support the claim, and that's enough, right?"
"It seems to me that what I hear from you is, what did you just, you didn't say preponderance of evidence. You said..."
"Beyond reasonable doubt."
"That's it. Beyond reasonable doubt."
"Okay."
"Like 2 plus 2 equals 4. That's what I mean. That's exactly what I mean, right? Every scenario, we've never had a case where 2 plus 2 equals 5. I can't even fathom it."
"Do you need that kind of evidence before you can make a decision?"
"Uh, you know, you start talking about error tolerances and, you know, what is good enough for me to believe it? Yeah. I mean..."
"Then you'll never get married. It's got to be..."
"You can't go to sleep tonight if you have a roommate because there is no way that you have two plus two equals four type of certainty that that roommate's not going to stick a knife in your back as you lie asleep on your bed. You can't drive a car because you do not have 2 plus 2 equals 4 type of certainty that the guy coming towards the red light when you go through and it's green is going to stop. You don't know he's not going to run that red light and send you to an early grave. You guys are making a fundamental mistake. You're thinking that in order to know something, you have to have such a preponderance of evidence, basically proof, in order to believe it. You can't live that way. And that's why I talk with Bart about his marriage, about his parenting. You can't live your life demanding such an incredibly stringent level of evidence before you trust. You'll be a very lonely, very isolated person. Now, you better not be a gullible fool and just blindly trust. You better demand evidence that someone's not going to rip you off. And sir, if someone only wants to be your friend because you got money, watch out. You better find some people that really care about you, right? Yeah. Okay. And you better not have some incredible standard of 2 plus 2 equals 4. And if you don't meet it, you're not going to be my friend. I mean, come on. You can't live your life that way, guys. Right. And that's the mistake Bart is making."
"Are there thousands of manuscript variants? Yes, there are. But we don't have the original manuscripts, Bart. We all know that. But we have such a plethora of Greek manuscripts of the New Testament that we have an amazingly high degree of certainty that we really have what was written. So, you're going to push this inherent issue and laugh at Christians who believe the Bible is the inherent word of God, knowing full well that there's thousands of manuscripts and thousands of manuscript variations. Come on, buddy. You're playing a silly game. You can't live your life that way. It doesn't work. Because see, and what that my real, then my real problem is, and I didn't unload this on him, but you're either being inconsistent or you're being a hypocrite, an intellectual hypocrite, because you're saying there's not enough evidence for me to believe in Christ. But then you're going out and living for something that doesn't have anywhere near the evidence that Christ has, and you're trusting it. Like all my wonderful friends who say, 'Stock portfolio, Wall Street, it's where it's at, man.' And let's make no mistake, they get up at 4:30 in the morning, they get home at 8:30 at night, and they make a ton of money. And that's the bottom line. Please give me your overwhelming evidence that the ultimate purpose of life is to make money. Give me a break. People have faith, incredible faith in the American dream. Make money. It's a worldview, sir. Watch out. I think that's pretty much it. Thanks, sir, so much for that."