Transcription
I feel like, you know, it's not my job to save him. I need to save myself. I need to be here for myself. And I really thought I had a partner in him. I thought that we were kind of kindred spirits that way. But he's not. He's a fucking little boy that can't get out of his own fucking bubble or little cave or whatever he created for himself. And I'm tired.
[GENTLE MUSIC]
We met within the context of an open relationship at a time in our lives where, you know, he-- I was exploring things, and he was exploring different things, and we kind of met.
Generally, what kind of things?
A more open sex life.
- More sexually.
- Yeah.
Sexually. We were both exploring sexually.
Mm-hmm. So he and I are, separately, serial monogamists, from one relationship to another to another. And I think, for both of us, we realized sex doesn't have to mean one person for the rest of your life. It can happen within the confines of an emotionally committed relationship, and I think that's what attracted both of us to each other and created that bond.
Did you bring other people into--
Yes.
--your shared sex life?
- Mm-hm.
- Yeah.
Yeah. And how did that work for the two of you?
Yeah, I think, at the time-- like, I always looked at it as like we were kind of our, like, exploration buddies, you know? And that's kind of where the relationship flourished from there.
And did that stop at some point?
So boundaries became a huge issue. And we did--
So who wanted what kind of boundary?
I think, when we first got together, the boundaries were that we only dated other people together as a couple. And then just scheduling issues became difficult, whatever. And so she started dating someone on her own. So then we decided to try that for a while. But then his boundaries were, OK, you can't go on long walks with them. You can't cuddle. You can't do this. You can't do that.
- Well, that's going way back.
- Hold on. Hold on. Meaning you can't do things that are--
I can't do monogamous relationship things with other people and--
You can do pure sexual.
PING: Just pure sex. Got it. Show up for the sex, put your clothes on, and come home.
THERAPIST: Got it. And for me, that's not sexy to me. I don't operate like that. So he had a problem with how I was going to be intimate with someone else. But then when we were looking for other people to date, he was having a hard time because most guys will respond to me. But for guys, it's much more difficult. So sometimes I would help him write the notes to the prospects, right? And it worked. But I think when he started seeing other people, there was that switch that flipped, and all of a sudden, oh-- oh, I can do this with them. Oh, I can do that with them. Oh, that's OK. This is OK. So it's a free for all now. So he would disappear for three to four hours, not check in, no text, nothing. And I think, at that time, I wasn't so much I was jealous. It was just-- hello? We're in a relationship where we have other people, so you need to be more mindful of who your primary is. This is someone who told me I can't do X, Y, and Z, and all of a sudden, he's out doing X, Y, and Z.
THERAPIST: You were upset.
Yeah. The deeper issue is really--
Feeling left out.
I feel fucking left out. And that's not what this relationship is about. That's not what--
What's-- you're smiling because--
Because the irony is, like, she's saying she feels left out. It's always people trying to include her. Like--
I love how you don't take any accountability for how you make me feel. It's not about them, OK?
What would you want Will to say? What would be a way that he could convey to you that he is taking some responsibility? What would it sound like?
I guess I would love it if he says, you know what, you're more important to me than all these other people.
THERAPIST: Is there a way that you can communicate to her that she is important, that she's actually the most important?
I feel like any time I tell her how I feel about her, she just says, no, you don't. That's not how you feel. Or--
So part of you feels defeated.
Yeah. I try to reassure her with words. She either calls it bullshit or says, no, you don't. You know? Or I try to show her with small actions and things, and she says, that's not enough, or that's not good enough, or-- this is what causes me, probably, the most stress and anxiety in the relationship, is just trying to always figure out how to make her happy and always failing at that.
THERAPIST: Yeah. And, yeah, I feel like I've wracked my brain endlessly and have lost countless hours of sleep over it and just trying to think of things to do and always coming up short.
Well, what are you hearing, Ping?
Honestly? Just a whole lot of whining.
Bullshit, yeah. That's what I hear a lot, too.
PING: Yeah. Because he makes it seem like I'm this shrew running around. Pay attention to me. Pay attention to me. I need this. I need that. And I don't.
- I don't think--
- I don't think I said that.
- Wait. I'm a little concerned about what's happening right now. Are you thinking for a second about what Will is saying to you about his experience?
Yes.
THERAPIST: And your response to that is a whole lot of--
PING: Whining.
--whining. It's hard to know what to do, in my seat, with that response, because I-- if I can't rely on the two of you having some concern for each other, I don't know what we're doing here. But this growing resentment that I have for him has-- it's not from any one incident. It's from all of these incidents where I see him choosing himself, choosing his needs, putting his needs-- putting someone else's needs in front of mine. So you know what? Fuck you. All I hear is whining. I don't fucking care. I am the person that he can come home to, he can get comfortable, sit around and fart and be himself. But he won't do that with other people. He puts on his best self for other people, not for me. So I left for Korea in August of 2019. I came back September 2020. And upon my return, I'm finding none of that's true.
What did you find?
Well, the phrase she keeps throwing out is I came back a stranger. I would say I've grown or evolved. I had this awesome experience over there. How could that not change you or affect you? The reality is we both have changed.
[SIGHS]
So he came back in September, and when he came off the plane, he didn't hug me. He didn't kiss me. And he was just like, ah, this feels so weird. Everything feels weird. And OK, fine. He needs time to adjust. But I don't think he appreciates that what I was seeing was a stranger. And that, in turn, affected our intimacy. Like, we used to have a great sex life. Now we have no sex life, and that's--
hmm?
Why?
- Yeah.
- I don't know. Ask him.
What do you think?
I feel like she's putting this on me, that whatever this no sex thing is, it's all for me to figure out on my own. And you better do it quick because I'm losing patience. One of the reasons why I married him was because I thought he was going to be my playmate. I thought he was going to be my partner in that sense. I thought we were going to have an open marriage and open communication and blah, blah, blah, and you've been anything but open with me. He disappointed me on such a fucking level, and now we're not even having sex. And if we're not going to have sex anymore, then I don't want to be married.
THERAPIST: But maybe-- I think it sounds like something about the experience of this departure, of this leaving, has hurt you. You're speaking from a place of desperation and a deep worry. But what's ultimately coming out is intimidation. And that aggression kind of creates the opposite of what you're needing. So what you need to do then is kind of tame your dragon and move it in a slightly different direction.
I'm trying.
So you still have those strong feelings.
Right. But they, indeed, go towards passion rather than aggression.
Yeah. He calls it Grendel. He named it.
What does he call it?
You called it Grendel. That's her dragon. That's her Grendel. And she always talks about how the Grendel is there to protect the little girl inside. The few times she has been able to open up and I've seen her vulnerability and I've seen that desperation, I've seen that fear, it instantly melts my heart, you know, and I feel it, too. And I just want to, like, comfort her. And I feel like those times we instantly connect. But it's so rare that it happens that way.
So rare it happens that way.
Yeah.
Will, how are you doing right now?
I don't know. I feel hopeless.
THERAPIST: Hopeless? We've been to so many therapists, and it's just going through the same thing again and again. I don't think any progress is being made. You know, I try to look at myself, and I try to change things, and I try to do things differently. But our sex life is absent. Our communication is pretty much nil. I don't feel like I can tell her anything or say anything. I think it has to do with the fight we had just a few days ago. I just asked her if she was OK if I went to play golf with my friend. And somehow that turned into I always choose other people over her. It's just like a moment of realization for me.
THERAPIST: Of?
It's like all I did was ask to go play golf. And in your mind, I'm choosing everything over you. Like, how do you reason with that? How do you have any kind of logical conversation about that? That's just golf. There's so many deeper issues I want to talk about that I can't.
Where are you?
I'm listening to him, and I'm trying--
She's thinking I'm a crybaby, is what she's thinking.
I'm trying not to come up with a snide remark, but--
THERAPIST: But you have an impulse to do that?
Yeah. I do, in the sense that, you know, in response to what he's saying, how do I work with someone who's always a victim?
OK, can I tell my part of that story?
WILL: How would you respond if all the times you, you know, went off about how you feel about me leaving the area, if I was just like, oh, stop playing the victim? Like, how the fuck would that make you feel?
I feel like there's a lot of he said, she said, right? And there's a lot of, OK, well, this is his perception. This is his view of what happened. And then I have my view of what happened. But what's missing is the--
--is kind of theory that will help you understand what's the dynamic.
PING: Exactly, yeah. So one of the things we've talked about is you're already deeply stuck in the groove where you start with an assault. Right. Now, we know already that underneath the assault there's all sorts of feelings of hurt, of vulnerability, betrayal, that it's hard for you to sit with.
PING: Yeah. So you launch an assault.
PING: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And your response to that is to enter some state of helplessness and trying to comply, trying to appease. But, really, you're retreating. You're just trying to minimize damage, which leaves you further abandoned. And what do you know how to do when you feel abandoned?
Attack.
PING: I fight, yeah.
And what happens when you attack?
You feel helpless, retreat. So that's your dance at the moment. And you're exhausted by it.
I've been exhausted. But something's keeping you together.
PING: I don't know what. This is what I keep digging for. This is what I keep thinking about. So we can do all sorts of things. You can tell me that you're tired of it. You want to break up. We can try to understand how each of you got so deep into this particular position. I'd want to hear something about your family histories.
I feel like everyone always wants to talk about my family. I don't have the best relationship with them, granted, but I felt like that is something I've dealt with earlier on, like in my early 20s.
THERAPIST: Right. But just so you know, I'm not imagining doing reparative work on your relationship with your family. Right. What I'm imagining is that maybe each of you can understand a little bit why you're so stuck in a particular position. I mean, you're too good at this role for it not to be well rehearsed. Is that of interest to you?
She's really well behaved when she's here with you. She listens, and I feel like there's an actual dialogue. And I feel like even when she's talking about her feelings, she communicates in a more effective way. But whenever we try to do it on our own, it's completely different.
Do you understand what Will is saying?
Yeah. I call bullshit.
OK, but that's exactly the opposite of what I'm asking you. So let's just know--
This is why I don't tell you anything, because, according to you, everything I say-- everything that comes out of my mouth is bullshit. So why bother?
OK, well, then don't then. Then shut up. Because you're--
- I'm sorry. What is this?
He likes to think that he is this person where, you know, I'm trying to communicate. I'm the peacemaker. I'm blah, blah, blah. He is not. He is not.
OK, so do you want to do therapy?
I thought that was what we were here for.
OK, so abusing each other is not therapeutic.
PING: Exactly. Yeah. So don't
I'm trying not to, which is why I'm--
THERAPIST: So, Ping--
--on my best behavior.
Ping, look at me.
PING: I am looking at you.
And try to follow my advice.
PING: OK. What you're doing right now is destructive. It's not therapy. So just don't do it now.
[SIGHS]
I understand his frustration--
THERAPIST: With?
--with me. I understand that he doesn't know how to handle it when I get angry because he just sees the anger and he doesn't see what is underneath it.
In previous therapies, when you got to this point, what happened?
I'm not sure we've gotten this far. We were allowed to kind of just fight with each other to the point where--
THERAPIST: That's not helpful.
--the person's just like, OK, well--
THERAPIST: Yeah. You know?
What do you want to do? At one point, I was just like-- That's not what happened, is you-- you know, the therapist said something you didn't like. Then she gets triggered, and she blows up, and we fire the therapist. So we still haven't figured out what I'm doing to trigger-- like, what that trigger is and what I'm triggering. So let's try. So I guess it all goes back to just being acknowledged as someone important in his life. Right? And I think, yeah, a lot of that goes back to my own childhood. Yeah, a lot of neglect.
PING: A lot of neglect, a lot of, you know, no one telling me that I was good or smart or whatever. And it-- it stays with you. The way in which it plays out with us, with the lifestyle as an example, if we're embarking on this together, then we need to be a solid unit. We need to be a team. We need to be partners. But there's a part of me that always feels like, OK, well, I kind of feel like you're just-- you're using me, right, to enjoy this lifestyle, and everything that I need from you in order to feel special, to feel like a partner, I'm not getting.
OK, so we talked about this a few weeks ago when we were talking about the choice to live kind of a non-monogamous life, right? Which is interesting if one of your tender spots has to do with feeling not special, not seen. Right? You'd think that if you wanted to really address that fully, you'd want like a super monogamous, tight kind of relationship. So the choice to enter situations in which that is at play is interesting, right, that you're-- it's like you're-- in a way, you're-- you're setting up a situation to provoke yourself, which is interesting. It reminds me of what you said about Korea, that, in a way, you kind of have this-- orchestrate a certain plan, and then you set yourself up to feel left behind, not thought of. So there is some way that you're kind of unconsciously creating these scenes for yourself, where you get to revisit what has hurt you the most.
You both seem suddenly quite sad. What's going on?
I feel like that lifestyle helped me kind of come out of my shell a little bit. And I thought, by meeting him, that I found a partner, you know, that would see me and--
[SIGHS]
And I think what makes me sad is I just-- I don't really think he sees me.
Well, I have a couple of thoughts, but First I want to say that these kind of early experiences of deprivation and neglect sit very deep, and there's a certain degree of being unseen that you're going to have to live with in the sense that it's always going to be there. It's not like somebody else can come in and see you the way you needed to be seen then. So there's a certain pain that you're living with that this relationship can't fix.
Thank you for the book recommendations.
Yeah. I got one of them.
Which one?
High-Conflict Couple. It's a very short read, but there's a lot of stuff to do in there.
Are you both reading?
I asked him to read, and he--
She read me an excerpt. I'll read it when you're done.
Well, the goal is to read it together. But, anyway, it kind of made me look at a lot of the shit that I was bringing to the table. But what in particular?
I'm still stuck in that emotion of you hurt me, so now I'm angry, and now I'm stuck in anger because I want to make you feel--
THERAPIST: Anger and retaliation.
--anger, retaliation. And that's where that's coming from. But at the same time, what I've been doing is not helping him understand where I'm coming from. It's hard because there's a lot of moments where I look at him and I feel bad because I'm like, oh, wow, you've been mean to him, or you've said bad things, or you've been just a total asshole, right? But how do you undo it? Because a lot of it is knee jerk, obviously, because that's been my narrative for so long, I think ever since I was a kid. So what do you do with that? You know? And--
You do a very, very intense override. It's hard work. It's a lot of shit to unpack. But I get it. I get it. Yeah. I'm moved by what you're saying. Moved with you. It's wonderful.
How are you, Will, sitting and listening and--
Not to seem impatient, but I haven't really seen the results of that. Like, I haven't seen much improvement in our interactions with each other. Like, our daily interactions are minimum, barely there. And I have a hard time trusting that there's going to be noticeable changes in our relationship. And I almost feel like, you know, she's working on herself to improve herself and her ability to have a relationship with the next person, not me.
THERAPIST: Thoughts about that?
I'm trying to undo some of this crap. I'm trying to be better. And, I mean, it makes me sad because I thought he would be on that same journey with me towards recognizing our own folly and bullshit and saying, you know what, I'm contributing to what's at play here. But, you know, to what he was telling you earlier is like, well, I feel like, you she's getting better for the next relationship. And quite honestly, if he continues with stonewalling me and withdrawing, then, yeah, that's where I'm headed.
I was thinking about it the other day. One of the reasons why I did fall in love with him-- because I saw a little bit of me, the younger version of me in him, and I wanted to take care of that person. I wanted to be there in a way that I-- nobody was there for me.
What did you see?
PING: That inner child, you know, the one that was neglected, that wasn't given what they needed, you know? But-- yeah, and that's what connected me to him. But I think over the years, I found myself not getting what I needed. And however I express whatever I need, he didn't hear it. I didn't feel like he listened. And I'm just tired. Like-- you know, it's-- he thinks I'm crying wolf. It's like, oh, you always say you're going to leave. I'm like, no, I don't want to leave. I'm telling you, I don't want to leave. But I feel like we're going to get to a certain point where I'm done. I can't do this anymore. Like, yeah, I have things I have to work on, but I feel like you're so encapsulated in your own shit that you can't see what you're throwing out. And if you want to throw it out, then fine. Then let me go. Move on. I would like to move on with my life. I feel like, you know, it's not my job to save him. I need to save myself. I need to be here for myself. And I really thought I had a partner in him. I thought that we were kind of kindred spirits that way. But he's not. He's a fucking little boy that can't get out of his own fucking bubble or little cave or whatever he created for himself. And I'm tired. I'm just tired. I don't know.
In the back of my mind, I'm always thinking, OK, well, you keep saying you're done. Are you done? Are you absolutely done? And I mean it. I am, because I don't want this, and I don't see a way out of it without his participation. I don't want to have this fight anymore. Like, seriously, I would rather be alone.
Well, I just want to say a word about this being done, which is there are all sorts of being done. You can decide, you know what, this is really not what I want. There's no way to make it different or better, and we should let go.
Yeah.
THERAPIST: And then there's being done, which is just the same as starting a fight or attacking. It's sort of an attempt to influence by being done. And that I want to dissuade you from because that's just--
Right. It just messes up the whole system.
No, I see that. Yeah, I see that. Yeah, but--
PING: I mean it. I'm done. I think I'm not the partner that he expected me to be or that he wanted me to be, that how I was back then in the early years is no longer the case now. I don't know. If I'm honest, I don't know that I can be that person for him anymore. I don't know that I can be in that lifestyle. And if I was at one point, it was because I wanted to make it work. I really wanted the impossible, right? And I was wrong. I was wrong. I was wrong about him. I was wrong about us. And that sucks. I think, at the end of the day, I really-- I want a partner that sees me too, and I don't-- I don't think it's him. I'm sorry.
[GENTLE MUSIC]