Transcription
K: So do I look at disorder with the eyes of my prejudices... my opinions, my conclusions, my concepts... the propaganda of a 1,000 years - you follow? - which is 'the me'. So do I look at disorder without 'the me'? And is that possible? So that is meditation. You follow, sir? Not all the rubbish they talk about. To observe without division... to observe without 'the me' who is the very essence of the past... 'the me' that says, "I should", "should not", "I must", "I must not". 'The me' that says, "I must achieve", "I must gain in God" or whatever it is. So can there be an observation without 'the me'?
You see if that question is put to an orthodox meditator he will say... "There can't because 'the me' is there. So I must get rid of 'the me', so to get rid of 'the me' I must practise"... which means I am emphasising 'the me'. So through practice I hope to deny practice... through practice I hope to eradicate the result of that practice... which is still 'the me', so you are caught in a vicious circle.
So the traditional approach as I see it - as one has observed it... not as I see it, but as one has observed it in the world is to emphasise... 'the me' in a very subtle way but it is to strengthen 'the me'... 'the me' that is going to sit next to God. Think of the absurdity of it! 'The me' that is going to experience Nirvana or Moksha... or heaven, enlightenment, it means nothing. So we see the orthodox approach is really holding man, human beings... in prison of the past, giving him importance in his personal experience. Reality isn't a personal experience. You can't personally experience the vastness of the sea... it is there for you to look, it isn't your sea.
So if you put that aside then the question arises: ...is it ever possible to see without 'the me'... to observe this total disorder of human beings, their lives... the way they live, is it possible to observe it without division? Because division implies conflict, like India and Pakistan... like China and America and Russia, you know all that. Division politically breeds chaos... psychologically division breeds endless conflict, inwardly, outwardly. Now to end this conflict is to observe without 'the me'.
C: I wouldn't even say observe.
K: To observe 'what is'.
C: Well, when you observe then you are judging.
K: No, that is what I mean. You can observe through criticism, through evaluation.
C: But a total observation.
K: That's partial. To observe totally, in that there is no evaluation at all.
C: There is no observer either.
K: Therefore what is meditation then?
C: That is meditation.
K: That is meditation. So in observing disorder, which is essentially meditation... in that observation there's order, not the order that the intellect creates. So meditation is not a personal search for personal experience. Right? Meditation is not the search for a transcendental experience... which will give you great energy to become more mischievous. Meditation is not personal achievement, sitting next to God. Meditation then is a state of mind in which 'the me' is absent... and therefore that very absence brings order. And that order must exist to go any further. You follow, sir? Without that order things become silly. It's like these people who go around dancing... chanting and repeating 'Krishna' and all that silly stuff, that's not order. They are creating colossal disorder. As the Christians are creating great disorder, as the Hindus, the Buddhists. As long as you are held within a pattern you must create disorder in the world. The moment you say, "America must be the super-power"... you are going to create disorder.
So then the next question, sir, from that arises, it is necessary to inquire: ...can the mind observe without time... without memory which is the material of the mind? Memory and time are the material of the mind. Can it observe without those two ends, time and memory? Because if it observes with memory, the memory is the centre, 'the me'. Right? And time is 'the me' also, time is the evolution... of the brain cells as evolving, evolving, becoming, all the rest. So can the mind observe without memory and time? Which is only possible when the mind is completely still. And the traditional people recognize this... so they say "We must practise in order to be silent"! So control your mind - you know the tricks they play.