in my mind I have to tap everybody else

winning is not enough

the following is a conversation with

hajir Gracie widely considered to be the

greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all

time this is the Lex Friedman podcast to

support it please check out our sponsors

in the description and now to your

friends here's hodger Gracie

let's start with possibly the greatest

match in Jiu Jitsu history your second

match against buchesha let's go through

the details let's go through the whole

thing so the walk leading up to it you

always do this walk it's epic walk you

post on Instagram Hanzo posted on

Instagram yeah this calm walk towards

the mat well let's go to that match in

particular what was going through your

mind you've been away from competition

facing probably one of the greatest and

at that time many people consider the

greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all

time in bachatcha uh here's the old man

the Old Timer getting back out there

what were you thinking yeah I think

that's the first time

since probably I got my black belt that

I was in the favor to walk into a fight

I have to say like a lot of people

thought consider him the favorite

I mean

understandable you know I was out of

competition for a while he was just

winning everything

so you know saying about the walk like

for me

you know the five stars way before the

referees say go you know it's uh is all

the focus on concentration

that I think is very important for me to

start before like you know I almost walk

blind to the Met many times I passed

like great friends and I couldn't see

anyone you know they're trying to talk

to you and I'm like I'm 100 focused on

my opponent already even thought that I

cannot even see him in front of me so I

think that's what me was always uh very

important to try to clear my mind out

from everything are you visualizing the

opponent I'm not just clearing not at

that time is there what's what's in your

head is it like a calm River with birds

chirping what it's flank just blank

Darkness yeah Darkness okay and that's

what we see in that calmness it's just

blankness how hard is it to achieve that

blankness it's difficult to say because

I think I don't remember when I'll say

probably as a black belt I try to

Focus like that not to think because

it's probably something you learn is the

more you think the more nervous you get

and there's nothing that you're gonna

gain by thinking of the fight or the

possibilities what you know what you can

do what can go wrong what can go right

because it's unpredictable you have

absolutely no idea it's impossible to

predict the fight and you discover that

if you just let those nervous feelings

go and empty your mind it actually is

pretty effective it is it makes you feel

better it's you know you kind of control

your emotion control the adrenaline on

your body up to a level

so it absolutely helps you you know

focus in the fight I've learned that in

Jiu Jitsu and in general in life that

whenever something feels really shitty

you can just like take that thought and

not think about it yeah like I do that

like on long runs or like a fast run or

yeah in Jiu Jitsu especially not getting

older out of shape like that feeling of

exhaustion well you can always get to

the feeling of exhaustion you could just

not think about it yeah not think about

being exhausted yeah just and that's

somehow it relaxes you I think maybe in

the face of exhaustion all the fears

start to creep in maybe your muscles

tighten up I don't know this is for the

uh the amateur suggested person

but it's kind of funny how you can just

take that thought and let go of it so

you get as a black belt competitor you

get used to you get good at letting go

of any thoughts yeah for Innovation to

exhaustion is I mean that's not the good

example of it it's

you know there's a lot of times in the

fight you're getting tired and you're

getting pretty tired

so it's like the last scene you want to

think of it is how tight you are it

doesn't matter because it doesn't but

you're going to quit I mean it doesn't

matter yes how tall you are it's yeah

there's no value thinking about it

there's no value it's you just have to

go through it so when you're like uh

you know many minutes into the match and

you're slowly moving as you sometimes do

tying your belt catching your breath

you're not thinking about anything

you're trying to let go of thinking I'm

trying to like to save

everything to the file like nothing goes

to waste it's you know every move

unnecessary this is just going to make

you more tired or it's going to take

something out of you like you know I try

to calculate every single Move I Make

save as much energy as I can so I can

fully you know be focused 100 in the

fight with no way especially energy wise

and that's instinctual like uh

minimizing the amount of moves you're

not like

explicitly thinking should I do this or

not it's just just don't move unless

it's absolutely required yeah because

fight these you you cannot really

there's not really time to think much

you know it's like it's just your

instincts are playing it's like it's

you know you already have your you know

your weapons let's say you know you did

the things that you do at is just you

wait for the perfect moment the beauty

of it is you know there's the right

moment to everything if you feel one

second too late it doesn't work no you

get messy so it's you know you're trying

to catch that moment

that's his you know and for that you

have to be fully focused in what you're

doing because one second is you out it

won't work but you're you're not exactly

known as somebody that moves super

quickly so the so the moment

it's not about how quickly you move it's

about uh the right moment yeah yeah it's

not

like it's speed

it's not like you have to move the

spirit of life it's it's the move itself

at that precise moment it doesn't have

to be super fast because your opponent's

not moving so perfect you know so it's

it's a combination of moving between you

and him I mean the same thing happens in

in Judo and the movement can be really

small yeah it's just Jude is a is a bit

more explosiveness you know she's the

moves are slightly faster so it did no

it does require a bit more explosiveness

in Judo but even just the right timing

for an off balance yeah

it's still a little tough yeah yeah it's

not that they're you know moving the

speed is not going to count that much

yeah it's the timing that you initiate

that move you see that with foot sweeps

there's nothing more beautiful than uh

like uh Olympic level athletes going at

it in the Olympics and a person

and it's just and you see

one man's life flashed before his eyes

and realized like I'm supposed to be the

top three person in the world that I

just find they don't they have this look

on their face like I don't know what

just happened it's beautiful to see you

don't see that I guess you see that

unboxing Knockouts and stuff like that

you don't know what the hell just

happened yeah is it that precise moment

of movement that you get caught like is

is that one Split Second

that's it do you get that in Jiu Jitsu

at all because Judo has

because of the explosiveness because of

the point scoring system that

incentivizes these giant throws

um has these moments where everything

just turns on a single moment do you

have that in Jiu Jitsu too not really

because Dennis points is you get like

you know two points so he's

because I think regarding the submission

it's not just one precise movement that

changed everything I think Judo is the

takedown that counts as a submission

like keep on fight over Jujitsu don't

have that

so you will you will score points but I

think in terms of submission you need to

get to uh in a dominant position first

and then the submission will come slowly

it's a process yeah

okay let's go back to that guy with his

mind so actually in the weeks leading up

to it in the days and the hours in the

minutes is there some fear in you

leading up to this

I mean I'm not going to say you know

that I'm fearless because everybody

fears something you know

the fear is there but it's like how much

you like that controlled you I think I

was a lot more confident than fearful

that for sure walk into that fight like

I I was pretty confident that yeah I

could beat him was the source of that

confidence

my belief going on on me this okay I can

take the word

you can take anyone in the world but is

there specific strategic

like uh you know talking to Donahue

he believes that there's no such thing

as confidence like or rather the way you

get confidence is through data

like that you have proven yourself

effective

uh in previous situations but with

buchacha

you don't you don't have much data it

was a very the first time you faced them

was a very tough

that was also one of the greatest

matches of all time it was very tough so

doesn't that creep in like that doubt

because you know you don't have enough

data to be confident based on

yeah I mean

okay if I never have fought before you

know somebody walked into a fight with

someone like that then would I be that

confidence I mean probably no you know

so that history of what you know what

we've been doing or been achieving those

gives you confidence if that was my

first fight ever

I wouldn't probably I wouldn't be that

much but the time off

uh it doesn't matter it doesn't matter

doesn't matter you don't have the fear

or the actual physical experience the

psychological experience of being Rusty

of being honest that will come out on

training

so you okay so you simulate some aspect

of that yeah I mean the trainer will

tell you how you are okay did you

increase the intensity of the training

leading up to this yeah I mean I've

trained I train normal let's say

compared to the first fight the second

was a lot more confidence because you

know like I said on training the

training for the first fight they were

terrible

so what do you mean I think I was

focusing MMA for a while for a couple

months and I wasn't really focusing the

ghee and you know by the time I accept

the fight didn't start training

like all my responses on training were

off like all my training partners that I

used to train with that I destroyed I

mean now they like they're beating me

you know it's like I cannot beat them

the way I I was used to but you know so

I knew it was something was not right

for the first fight

but then it's like is it you know no

points is submission or Draw so yeah for

people who don't know it was the mother

Morris which is a 20 minute match

submission only so there's no the winner

is determined only by submission

otherwise it's the draw so physically I

was I wasn't myself on that fight I was

tired you know my body wasn't responding

anyway so that so the conflict was

different from the first the second I

think I was confident enough that I

wouldn't get tapped out on the first

that I was still gonna fight because he

has to tap me out to beat me and I trust

on my defense I'm confident enough for

my defense that he will not top me out

but in terms of

winning you know walking to the second

fight I was a lot more confident

what can you say about that feeling when

something's not right it's not a thing

that breaks people these three breaks

it's weird like people crack they give

up you know this is is a big test

because it's it's like being

really tired it's the same thing it's

like a lot of people crack because they

just feel they cannot give in more

there's not having nothing more to give

so they just like give up it's too hard

so what do you do just again take the

thoughts out there's no giving up I mean

I don't mind I don't care like you

you're just giving up it's not enough

it's not that's always the way you

thought yeah about Jiu Jitsu yeah I I'm

never gave up I mean I tapped it's you

know not giving up it's not not typing

that's just stupid especially you know

doing training like it's I get caught I

tap I've never ever

hurt myself by not tapping I get you get

angry you know it's train hard you know

improve make it make yourself better

you'll go caught accept that you made a

mistake give up tap then try harder so

you know the not tapping it's you're

sacrificing your body and you know

you'll never be the same like if you let

your elbow popped the air will never

ever be the same ever you let yourself

go to sleep your resistant drops so this

everybody has a has a limit of

resistance until they you know to resist

a choke before you pass out the moment

that you you you go to sleep that

resistance will dropped that's why I've

never heard anyone say yeah that's

awesome so that's true so tap this so

that's the reason because people usually

say it's no you can somebody is the same

or you're getting knocked out you get

knocked out the first time your

resistant dropped your drug weak gets

weaker so just for the record I've never

gone to sleep again

which uh means my resistance is high

right I don't know it must be oh your

defense is pretty good I I don't know

about that no no I would

um because it doesn't make sense to me

or maybe

in my case I think my understanding of

when I'm screwed is pretty good yeah

like there's no you're not in trouble

yeah one of the things I regret the most

about my Jiu Jitsu journey is not having

given enough time to um

being in really bad positions like the

better I got I think the less I started

being in bad positions

that's like the that is how you train

yeah because you should just Spa When

You Spa like it's difficult to to be in

bad positions a lot and you train with

better people but I mean let's say five

six minute rolls how long you're going

to be in a really bad position not long

right so you don't really have time to

develop

that's why people they don't

you know they don't train be in bad

positions because you have to stop there

over and over again

to be used to it yeah or put yourself

there I just didn't have that mindset I

think I think you start I mean part of

the fun of jiu jitsu's as you get better

and better you have certain people you

go with you have these puzzles that

you've figured out that you're playing

very specific details you're working out

you're trying to improve your main

like techniques and so on but yeah just

the percentage of time you spend being

submitted or being or trying even going

against like Laura ranks trying to

escape basic submissions is low I I

don't know if that's true for most

people probably is right most people

have very bad defense yeah because they

don't allow themselves to be there

because

I mean who wants to get tapped because

you will until you you know to work on

your defense of course you're gonna get

tap or you know you're not gonna Escape

you're gonna struggle to escape

so people they don't want to be there

I regret it most because of the effect

it clearly had and how I competed

it it was it was clear that my

competition was was constantly driven by

a conservative thinking

like don't take risks I think because of

a weak defense honestly and I think uh a

lot of the any of the fear like uh for

example exhaustion was accompanied by

fear because of weak defense I think if

I were to psychoanalyze myself and I

regretted it I regret it a lot

but speaking of which

I don't think anyone's ever submitted

you in competition so you're

well I was a juvenile yes

yes so so when you were a young person

yeah six is that still haunt you I know

first I was winning that fight by a

large

I mean I think by six points or four

something like that but I was like I was

going to remember it though huh by the

details

again he never competed again

hi whoever you are please uh let's let's

do a podcast

uh no but what do you attribute to that

too you're saying you're confident

you're confident that

the top of the world the number one

puchesha would not submit you

um so where is that confidence grounded

and what do you attribute the fact that

nobody was able to submit you

first you come down training you know I

train

a lot bad position like my defense is

good because I I practice over and over

again as much as I practice all my

offenses position

so it's you know you have to train both

equally it's not just being a good

position you have to be in bed

so I think that's a very strong part of

my game

you know to be a complete fighter you

know at least a complete martial artist

you have to be good in every single

position every single one those that

you're not you have a weakness

so it's you know to be complete you

should have no weakness

so that was always my you know I was

always very uh particular on that like

it's one of my weakness where am I what

I don't feel good at it if you put me in

a position to a struggle how to escape

how do I get out everything any

submission locked Penny position you

know back mount everything it's doesn't

matter which position up I practice over

and over again so that when I if I get

there in a fighting situation I will

know how to get out at least I'll have a

direction you know I would know this is

my way up

do you practice both escaping the bad

position and the transition

into the bad position avoiding it

because that's how it happens you know

Jiu Jitsu you start in a neutral

position

now the transition then it then becomes

the fight itself you see it's being

there is the most important is when

you're there

then you have to know how to get out

that's your weakness how I either

stopping the person getting that

something different they're two

different things it's you you either you

practice one or the other

so but both are important I guess but

the the stopping the person is easier to

practice because that comes naturally in

training yeah what was uh the actual

process like what was your biggest

weakness throughout your like you just

remembering what was annoying to you to

figure out uh I mean outside control is

always is the bottom of second bottom

it's regardless how much you you

practice it's not that very easy you'll

never be easy

but it's so annoying it makes no sense

yeah someone pins you down this doesn't

want to move much he's a big and strong

guy regardless of who is not going to be

to escape so some situations are just

hard it must be the sorry to interrupt

I'm interrupting hydrogracies but

but you just made me realize

if you're really good if you're if

you're going against like the perfect

Jiu Jitsu competitor

probably side control might be one of

the hardest positions is that the

hardest position to escape is one of

them if the person doesn't want to

progress It's concerned about it yeah

like the best pinners in the world I

mean partially because I've Just Seen

Judo people that know how to pin yeah

they scrape this I control is a

nightmare it's a nightmare doesn't

matter how much you practice yeah it's a

nightmare

and it's also just frustrating uh I

think I guess it is also frustrating

because a lot of people in that position

will be about maintaining control not

progressing yeah and usually people in

their mouth and back control are usually

trying to progress towards a submission

which opens up opportunities for escape

so what's the actual process

just time and time again putting

yourself inside a bottom side control

yeah over and over again starting that

escape back Escape get back

if you mount you get back any situation

outside that stop start again stop start

again

and it has to be I'll say five minutes

because it's the repetition that will

teach you you know if you train like

three minutes on top

you have time to you know one thing and

then time up is the right position there

over and over again you know when you

try to say move over and over again then

you see what can go wrong

and is that understanding the details of

the movement are actually doing the

movement and feeling it it's it's both

first you have to understand the

movement and then practice

but

most important thing is defense

Escape coming second

because if you know he's attacking you

the one thing is if he's not trying to

submit you but the other one if it is

let's say if a person is very good has a

very good attack

the first thing is defense

not just Cape you can expose yourself to

a even worse position because that is is

very risky when you're trying to escape

you'll always expose yourself to a worse

position

so avoiding that it's you know first is

defense not getting caught and then when

you're Skyping don't be no worse

position so defense uh Engineers when

you're wearing a ghee what does defense

entail is it mostly grips is it mostly

the positioning of your hips and legs is

is everything together because it's a

whole body movement it's you know it's

constantly moving off your arms legs

body it's it they you know they they

have to everything works together

going back to the mind of that guy uh so

confident

no fear at this point

is there a bit of ego in there too yes

like I say no I'm not gonna say I'm

fearful I'm fearless of course This

concerns

that fight I would have to say was

probably the fight that I got nervous

the most walking in because I knew what

that meant that fight I mean everything

for me all my legacy was on the line

because

you thought I lost that fight though

forever will be number two yeah forever

and I mean bushesh is is a great great

guy great competitor judicious is very

good but I'm better than him I knew that

it's like he's competing non-stop with

them he's uh he's a great competitor you

know taking nothing out of him he's

super tough very very tough very good

it's probably the best competitor

introducer and he won 13 times the world

championship I won 10. so as a

competitor you know he has more titles

than I do

so but in terms of you know analyzing

the game I consider technically better

than him

so knowing all that everything that I

build all my legacy it's

if I was writing on this match if I lose

this fight I'm forever number two

and none of that is going going through

your mind I know I knew I mean it's not

at that moment that I I already knew

that I remember just before you know the

curtains open I'm standing in before

they call my name and I mean my legs

were like

I feel the adrenaline kicking on my legs

and I'm like

you know I'm hitting the legs I'm like

wake up you know get off get adrenaline

off me you know

so it's it was it was intense it was

intense and this was in Rio that was

Unreal so

my hometown so this is I mean and you

know Rio is is not exactly known for its

calmness in its fans so this is like wow

wherever they hosted the Olympics

the year before yeah so this is like

I mean this like the whole basically

martial arts Community is watching this

stuff like

yeah I mean is there some uh was henzo

there yeah yeah so people are just I

mean there's attention it's also

I mean I don't know if you felt that in

part but you're also fighting for the

Gracie name yeah

in the in our hometown the greatest

where the Gracie really is crazy

competitor of all time arguably in the

hometown

yeah I mean okay all my family my best

friends my friends everybody watching

everybody there there was a lot of

pressure a lot

see and then

were you thinking that you would be able

to submit him no it's at that point like

I don't predict how the fight will go

that I never did because it is

unpredictable it's I never tried to set

any strategy for any fight I think oh

okay that I did but that was the only

time that I said any strategy into a

fight there was a 15 minutes fight that

and for I said first five minutes I'm

gonna play defense he's bigger stronger

younger I don't want to play his game

and I know he comes in very fast every

single fight he had you know he comes

very aggressive

so my strategy walk into the fight let's

say five minutes I'm gonna play defense

I'm not gonna try to attack I'm not

gonna try to match his space

I already expected you know maybe I'm

gonna start losing the fight because you

know if he comes in there's a risk of me

maybe getting takedown you know

something happened

I'm like I'm gonna stick to the game

plan

five minutes I'm gonna start picking up

the pace because then it's 10 minutes to

go which 10 minutes a long fight so I

don't need to stop fast but I'm gonna

stop being more aggressive and then

you know try to take him down up who God

you know but by then I'm like that's as

far as strategy goes

there's no specific uh stay on the feet

were you comfortable being both bottom

and top and this yeah strategic I'm

always comfortable being borrowed top I

prefer to be on top because

being in the bottom the personal topic

takes the pace of the fight because he's

on top over you so I always prefer to be

on top because I can dictate the pace I

can Implement my own pace

and being the bottom they can Slow Me

Down

so it's harder so if I can choose I will

always be on top

but I think by then I was like it's

you know five minutes hit it I'm like

he's pretty big and strong I'm gonna

spend a lot of energy taking him down

I forgot how did it how did it feel

so here you're stepping in by the way

puzzle masks this is old school as old

school as it gets

so calm and relaxed here for people just

listening we're watching the early

minutes of the match yeah so just

feeling it out he seems pretty calm too

he must be nervous too I wonder how do

you ever talk to him you guys are

friends yeah yeah we're friends did he

ever say how nervous he was no we never

spoke about that fight no no

he probably lays uh late at night

thinking about it maybe I don't know

that SOB yeah I mean so you see the

first five minutes no he kept

I knew what he was going to do in my

study his game his stand-up is most

basic is basic in takedowns uh leg

attacks double leg so you go single

double and he charges in that is pretty

much his

stand-up game so you try you get you get

a grip yeah that we got penalized

so do you like to uh use the

do you like to post with your left you

have a right foot forward usually you're

righty right I'm ready but I know he

wants my leg so I'm I'm playing my

stance just because of this game

oh you know all my grips are that the

first five minutes was to kind of try to

neutralize his attacks so he wants to

get your left leg Yeah

uh yeah right there yeah so how hard is

that to stop that I mean he felt pretty

strong

so I'm you know I'm pushing the head

down trying to play with his balance

yeah if if you if you see it there was a

pause

go back there he charged in

there's a pause me standing in front of

him yeah I did that on purpose

what do you mean

just uh it's just in front of him

because you know he tried yeah and I'm

like you fail I'm here

there's a

okay so you could feel the frustrations

I could feel his frustrated his

frustration not be able to take me down

okay so now and this is just

psychological battles and you see me

walking straight into the middle of the

mat and he's circling out yeah see I'm

going very slow I'm recovering and he's

Computing like shit yeah okay it's

because he just made a you know effort

trying to take me down he needs to

recover

and I mean you you need to recover the

other guys there waiting for you yeah

enjoy do I go for another takedown

because this one failed yeah do I need

to recalculate the strategy yeah and he

kept trying over and over again and keep

failing I think that frustrated him a

lot on that fight I fell

I felt him kind of slowing down suddenly

because he was getting nowhere

so we're five minutes in yeah he keeps

so you never got that takedown in the in

the early no

let's see so at this point do you pull

guard yeah okay so

that's when I fell

like he's he's

mentally he's he's not he's worried now

did you try to pull close guard here no

I knew he was going to bring Danny in

okay because that's the defense against

pulling closed guard yeah

but I like that

what he I like people bringing the knee

between my legs

because see I'm gonna close my guard

even with this lagging okay he is he's

he's stopping the club well this is this

is awkward but yeah I was holding his

arm that's why he felt he had no hand to

post got it

but still it puts a leg in but you're

able to close your guard around if

you're okay with that I do that really

well at three people from that position

a lot what's the sweep I guess just

pushed okay it's just a pledge to your

left side yeah okay because he has no oh

it's almost like uh you mean you're

basically around his back a little bit

like he knew that like I swipe a lot of

people with that sweep so you you see he

kept leaning to his left to my right

yeah so I want to push them to my left

so you see him leaning over to my right

a lot what's the right answer for him to

like roll or something no I mean he's

stuck he does not really he's stuck

there but the one thing he did he kept

off me completely see that he's leaning

yeah true like he's too afraid of my

attack now because he that you know he

should lean on me yeah you know you

should bring the fight to me so when I

fail him you know I I knew he was like

he's too worried about my attacks now oh

yeah that's right so he can't yeah he

comes back to the center he has no like

so he's not engaging at that time he's a

hundred percent just defending so I felt

that I'm like he doesn't want to engage

and he's looking I knew at that point he

wants my foot because our first fight I

had this like the same position I wasn't

holding his arm and he went to attack my

foot which he did you know he got into

hold or what okay yeah so I know he's

looking at my foot which foot sorry the

left my right yeah my right foot okay

so I'm hoping he's hiding it I'm holding

his arm and now you're going to the back

it's an arm drag type of thing so the

moment that I came off now I'm here I'm

holding his arm so he cannot come up so

he's you know I'm holding his left arm

so he cannot post a hand on the floor

and come up and he's holding it right to

try to get you yeah

basically to prevent you from attacking

yeah

oh that's interesting and he rolls yeah

he tried to he tried to get me off

balance so see now I'm switching I

switched the grip on his arm so I can

free my left arm

can I ask you a question like uh

was there a chance he sweeps you here I

mean there's always a chance but very

bad yeah but see my left arm is free uh

so you can post yeah

why was your left arm free oh cause

you're using it you got it got it

okay

and now I tried the hook now you will

see

yeah but what I knew

his Hispanic

because

he did a move that he completely opened

himself up like I'm holding his left arm

so by holding the arm

his that prevents him from defending the

hook on that side because his arm is

being hauled across so their arm cannot

block the hook and

I mean the hook with your left leg Yeah

okay so you see when he come up but I

would say I mean that's my guess but

bushesh is

he's a big guy you know he's like 110

kilos 112 something like that which is

245 yeah all right yeah so what were you

at the time uh less 220 yeah 220. a nice

slim 100 kilo okay

it hits

his defense are not amazing he's good

but you know he's not known to have

amazing defense so by being the big guy

in the room when you train you used to

get out of situation because of your

size you shake people off you know it's

it's because of your size you shake them

off you get off some bad positions you

can I mean I could feel on the first

fight I'm side control you know

something he explode out so you know you

I've seen him doing that a few of his

fights no you're not in the most

technical way just I'm getting out and

he did because of his size

so and he did the same thing like he

tried to stood up when I'm on his back

did he completely open up the hooks he

will see the next move his head gonna

come up and he's gonna try to get off

the floor so basically come up shake you

off kind of energy there was no

difference for the hooks I put both

hooks in

straight away

his arms yeah I'm off balance yeah see I

didn't bring him up he came up yeah and

now

I'm attacking his neck and he's worried

about the hooks

that's fatal mistake that's like defense

always come first remember what I just

said now the defense first Escape second

so he's not worried more about the

points than his neck

so it was like a a progression of

mistakes that's why I think he did he go

frustrated when he couldn't take me down

and then when I pulled God he was he was

he was frustrated that the fight wasn't

going his way you know he's very good

about taking down he tried over and over

again for five minutes and here he was

frustrated about the hooks so he's like

it's almost like the frustration things

like no no these folks shouldn't be here

like I pull God on the grips that I want

he's not comfortable inside my God he's

not in a position that he wants to be

he's over leaning to his left you know

to to to not he's not engaging or trying

to pass he's trying to get the foot but

his arm is trapped he's gonna get

nowhere

and then when I swapped him thundered

his words are collapsing you know he

couldn't take me down I pull God I'm

swept him he tried to roll me over no

you didn't get me anywhere the first

movement that he tried to escape I'm on

his back I mean now he's lost yeah

that if you just go back to him standing

see both who goes in no defense like

there was nothing on the way of those

hooks

coming up you're you're high enough on

him to where the weight was just

probably immense

it just felt too heavy man you got it

you already got you're already you're

already going for the choke huh of

course there's no time to lose

look at that yeah so you're not like

worried I'm gonna get shaken off you're

going for the trip okay no shaking me

off I'm on your back now

we're in this together and your your

right hand is opening up the lapel my

right hand is holding his arm

sorry yeah like you're holding the

sleeve but holding the sleeve and I'm

already going for the neck

because it's timing at which point do

you let go of the sleeve and open up

help with the power do you not need it

no I did that but first I want to try to

make a grip like then I need to

establish control Before I Let Go his

own got it

so I kept holding that a bit longer and

then when I fell okay I have a good

control over the back then I Let Go

do you okay so you have like a light

grip on his lapel but you're thinking

you need I need to adjust that you need

to adjust it you're like holding it

there and you're thinking okay at some

point I need to adjust all I need all I

want is to get under his chin then I

noticed I mean now I can't go for it

because if it's over there's no choke

right the wrist needs to be on the

that's just not right okay it's not

right or it doesn't work it both it's

not writing doesn't work I mean would

you tap the choke on your chin no just

pressure

have you you heard but it's not going to

choke you out I don't know I don't know

I'm not let me argue this I love this

arguing with Roger great thing about

jokes this is great okay like clock joke

it was always interesting to me because

in Judo it's illegal to have the gear on

them

and face and so it was kind of

liberating for me to be allowed to have

our gear on the face no it's just

liberating no you don't have to worry

about it like of course it's more

effective to go under the chin but I'm

surprised just because the amount of

pressure like it's all about how much

you can take it you can take a lot but

it feels like no it doesn't feel

comfortable I mean sometimes on your

mouth it cuts your mouth now you're

bleeding you feel horrible no but it

feels that's not the feeling the feeling

it might not be a joke but the feeling

like like it's a pressure that

everything's just closing in but but it

doesn't take you anywhere like you're

not gonna go to sleep you might not go

to sleep so it's just pressure

yes so pressure he hurts is

uncomfortable but it it is not going to

break your face and it's not going to

put you to sleep so if I don't get the

neck I don't go for the kill

I'm like I'm I'm holding the the his

collar you know my my wrist is almost

under it's you know I I'm trying to kind

of dig in if if I can't dig in then I

will adjust the call but first I need to

dig in I dig in first and adjust can you

do all that with one hand or no I did

so you can tighten the choke with just

one hand no I need the second one to

open the level but you're like digging

in with one I'm digging it under the

chin yeah this is under now I need to go

deeper but that the going deeper

requires a second hand it does okay

it does and but that requires you

letting go of the other hand yeah I have

to let go eventually

yeah I see all right yeah well that's

over yeah because I'm already under his

like the first hand got under the chin

do you need the a hand on the second

level yeah of course otherwise he turns

and he's out that's the control of the

Turning versus the tightening of the

choke yeah he does both it helps tighten

the collar and stop the person rolling

out

will you

feeling pretty good about this position

yes

I just felt it's getting tighter tighter

tighter tighter because he wasn't super

tight from the beginning he wasn't like

the perfect joke so we're still I mean I

knew it was like it's very close to the

end but you know he was I still need the

just that was still the risk of maybe

escaping is it possible for his head to

slip up yeah is it possible yes but I'm

closing that Gap

yeah

and here

what does that feel like relief relief

awesome amazing

somebody on Reddit ask ask him about the

Cross grip he used to sweep followed

with the genius grips which when

buchesha was inverted did you use a

cross curve when you sweep did you I

guess the Cross grip in the arm that

must be oh that's the cross group okay

uh what's the genius behind that or was

that just the uh do you like that kind

of that kind of grip yeah because I

always like close guard and no one wants

to be in anyone's close card right it's

open God is the step to pass

so everybody when you try to close the

guide they bring them in the middle like

if you if if you're not standing if

you're lower on the ground and the open

guard if you're close to me you need

that knee between so it's a must that's

when I start developing the attack you

know I managed to have long legs to

close my legs around people even with

that and then I just developed that

sweep when did you start developing that

like I don't remember when but I would

say before black belt

Okay so

your answer to that is not to figure out

how to prevent them from putting the

knee in

is there an answer to that no

the good guys will always no you can't

remove that leg out of the way that's

not possible well maybe off balance them

enough to wear this now no okay I mean

you you can try but like it's hard you

know he's kind of honestly you'll sweep

them

right so that means gonna so you're

gonna have to say it's not full sweep

yeah

because that's is the is extremely

common to have that I mean I if if I'm

on your guard open guard you know if you

have your legs you've found between both

of your legs in the open guard mind you

will be between your legs because it's a

must my knee cannot be on the floor

sometimes I was there what did he tell

you before

I think just motivate you I think that's

hands will always do that fantastically

well to motivate me like before I fight

a match

I think that you know the confidence you

know he's

you know his energy being around you

it's I think that's the is the great

thing to have hands on your corner it is

the motivation that he gives you what

did you learn about Jiu Jitsu in life

from Hanzo Gracie we got to hang out

with him in Vegas a little bit he's a

character he's one of the uh historic

coaches and Jiu Jitsu competitors but

also Personalities in the martial arts

world in in the world in general there's

very few like them hands was a fantastic

person it's it's you know what I've

learned most from him is like it's you

know you can't take any challenge it's

you know it doesn't matter when where

yeah well you know who it's you know you

have to be ready and

you know with that war spirit that he

has he you know he always took any

challenge

Ready or Not Ready

was it you that said it or he said it

where

uh not until

you go in

you know to do something difficult to

discover the strength that you have so

like if you really think about it

you might think that you don't you're

not good enough you don't have the

strength to take on something difficult

I fully agreed I think we are measure

not when we're on the strongest but when

we are on the weakest

that's when we truly measure ourselves

or character who we are not we're in a

position of power

or when our position of weakness have

you surprised yourself like how damn

good you are

like is this is this really how good I

am in this situation where in retrospect

you might think how the hell was able to

accomplish this not

how good I am because

otherwise I wouldn't be there

so you know being there in the first

place it's it's already not a great

thing but I say you know I've every

single time I found myself there I was

super proud that I've never cracked

like I've never gave up ever any second

any fight never never been broken in

competition never even it's not about

winning or losing is about you giving up

I've never doubt myself I always fought

to the very end always that I'm most

proud of

because there was moments you know it's

you're in a terrible position you know

mainly like there was moments that I was

super tired but like exhaustive tired

when and it was easy to give up like I

had nothing more to give

but I pushed I took

energy out of my soul I would have to

say because when my body had zero my you

know my spirit my soul

pull it out

is that in part just not allowing

yourself to have um

to have to ever ever quit yeah

I have uh one other thing I regret I

remember like a blue belt match

I remember I'm not gonna say who it was

against but uh I remember just being

extremely exhausted

and um just constantly fighting a guy

was really good Mount really good guard

passing and I just remember

um him passing my guard

eventually it was just like a finals of

one of the ibgf tournaments

and then

right away going to mount

and just

I don't know I the the level of

frustration I mean I quit at that point

I said I remember that still like I it's

not about losing winning or losing but I

just remember I was like like I was like

teary-eyed frustrated and then I knew

there was a lot of fights still left

even in there somewhere and I I quit and

I regret that to this day because uh I

think the reason I regret that is

because it gave me an option

to to now quit in every other aspect of

life like that this is an option yeah it

is it sucks

yeah it teaches you you know it makes us

stronger it's actually made you stronger

uh yeah it makes you stronger that you

did that to learn that don't do that

again

um but still like you said just going to

sleep in training

I do think it made me weaker it did make

me weaker in the rest of my life too

that those you know I've quit a few

times in my life on small things and you

realize okay it's not that big of a deal

it's fine

like who cares

um but that what you learn over time is

that voice always comes there like uh uh

obviously maybe it does for you too even

at the highest level of like it's not

that big of a deal like it's okay to

quit here like it makes sense I really

would understand

you know in some sense like you're uh

you know many people would say you're

past your Prime in this match with the

procession like it makes sense you've

been focusing on MMA makes sense yeah it

makes sense to lose yeah I don't know

that that's a weird voice and in some

sense uh it's that voice and a voice

that says like why are you doing this

like this is silly that doesn't make any

sense just just stop just stop just stop

and uh shutting that voice down and

never allowing yourself to quit that's a

really powerful thing like everybody

I've met

everybody that's successful

yeah down to the even Engineers CEOs

Elon Musk just never quitting

like when everybody around you it says

quit never quitting it's weird I don't

know what that is might be genetic it

might be like using the stubbornness to

just never allow yourself to um

develop that it's basically developing a

calluses to that voice that tries to

tell you to quit you never quit huh what

would you attribute that to

it's like how much you want to get to

the destination you chose like you know

it's how badly when I get there

it's if you quit you're never gonna get

there and you always wanted to I always

wanted

is there some thing you remember from

that match some things that happened

before and after that stand out to you

just since in Rio yeah there was an

interview you know like prior to the

fight you know there was a big fight we

don't like media every day before we

know me and him we're meeting for media

and

like five days before you know five six

days before I'm quite chatty it's

you know the closer we get to the fight

the more Focus I get the less I stop

joke around playing you know with people

but I remember I think it was maybe

three or four days before we were doing

an interview together I think

I think my cousin Kira was there she was

doing one of the interviews with us

and

I don't remember exactly what we were

talking about but I just remember we'll

talk about the fight of course and then

it was original with standing beside

each other

and I'm like and then I you know

suddenly I chop and I grabbed him by the

neck I say well I'm gonna tap you by the

neck and then he's like you know very

shy yeah and then I let go see no I'm

gonna tap it by the arm and I could feel

he was like he wasn't comfortable you

know with being there was you know me

saying that I'm gonna tap him out there

was like I was so relaxed joking about

it but I'm joking that I'm gonna tap him

out in a fight that we're gonna have him

for this time and

yeah I felt he was like not comfortable

at all

do you think you got in his head a

little bit to give you a little bit of

confidence yeah you've said that you

just is a reflection of your personality

so both your jits and your personality

there's a calmness what is that why are

you so calm is there in like an ocean

underneath that's boiling is this

developed or is this your personality

are you basically leveraging who you are

already to develop a game around the Jiu

Jitsu or the Jiu jits and make you calm

I think both I I was always very calm

since I was a kid you know since very

young I was never very you know fiery

person so that is a reflection you know

you reflected on my reducer of my life

all my fights the way I fight so it's a

direct influence of my personality

and I think he's also in the day you

know you develop the more the more you

practice the more you fight it's like

you know you don't want to get nervous

you don't want that adrenaline and so

you just learn how to shut that off from

your mind so the less I thought about it

you know it's like how many times I

fought you know let's say the week

before the fight that's when you stop

more because when you're concerned the

most because now it's getting very close

before it's just far away you know it's

it's normal to think of the tournament

you get a bit nervous but it goes away

quick but the fight you know the week

before now you're constantly thinking of

that day

and every time you think adrenaline

pumps in your heart accelerate you know

it doesn't you know it makes you it's

like why am I feeling this what

difference will it make so you kind of

you sharing that thought out of your

mind because you don't want to feel the

adrenaline your heart accelerating it's

not gonna add you anything

so it's you know it's the practice also

that I think I helped me to shut that

off my mind has that helped you in

regular life yeah of course it's you

know it's suddenly when you go into any

any situation that might be stressful

you know like an important meeting no

super whatever it is it's like how much

would you worry about that before what

it is not going to help you anywhere

it's the opposite just gonna make you

more nervous you're hard to accelerate

your ability to think clearly is going

to be

damaged by that so it's like they're

more calm the more relaxed you are the

better you can think of do you ever get

angry yeah

like in traffic

do you ever get like not calm just like

you're screaming not not in a screaming

no but just angry what does the angry

look like is it still calm

yeah like you know a few seconds of

complaining but then it goes away have

you ever like thrown a cell phone at a

wall or something like that I think just

that no I never get that angry because

that's just silly it's like it's it's

it's if I would have done that I would

not be able to control my emotions prior

to a fight

[Music]

letting yourself lose yeah uh and losing

control that will reflect other times

do you think

it has uh make in part made you more

emotionally closed off from the world

like you're you're it's harder for you

to be vulnerable to others probably

yeah but I I heard that a few times I'm

emotionally close it's yeah maybe that I

think that influenced it yeah have you

ever cried in a movie yeah

for not for many years before I think

maybe I'm getting older you remember the

movie something nice I mean it's no I

mean not the notebook

I mean I would say the last few years

I've been crying more than before for

some reason I don't know why like silly

movies like nothing suddenly brings

tears to my eyes yeah well I really I

already just having met you and

interacted with you I can see that

you're kind of opening your heart and

mind to the world you could you could

see like here's this historically great

athlete now like the wars have been

fought and you're now like waking up to

the world it's cool to see probably I'm

bringing my guard down now I don't have

to keep it up all the time

you can even do some podcasts

um you said you watched like movies

beforehand sometimes mentioned

Braveheart what were you doing did you

watch something beforehand like the day

before I used to yeah there was like I

think Brave hard

and

Gladiator

I mean there's a few others that I've

always watched the day before because

the day before I used to do nothing yeah

I just want to be at home in bed

watching TV like saving you know the

energy

stretching by myself so it's like it's I

just want to save energy I don't waste

my energy going out going around

so you know it's those are the movies

that I always like to watch kind of

trying to bring some you know hyper

excitements like you know I'm getting

ready to walk tomorrow so I'm like let

me watch some

movies they're like brother you know

some that Warrior Spirit yeah into me

yeah what is that about human nature

Braveheart I love you know even more

should you put your life on the line

for a thing that matters or run away

just so you can live it's like running

you may live but like years from now

when you look back at this moment uh

would you trade all the days yeah

just to come back and to this moment and

tell the English you could take our

lives but you can't take our freedom I

mean oh man what is that about human

nature

is there some aspect of like the glory

you were able to achieve being more

important than anything else

there's some aspect of that that that's

that's greatness you know yeah I never

pursue Glory

so it's it just came you know it is it

came with it but that was never my goal

I never care for

Glory were you able to experience like

like I'm at the height of this thing

whatever whatever humanity is able to

achieve in various things holy shit I'm

flying I felt like

no one can touch me I can destroy people

yeah prolonged periods of time or just

momentarily

I I always knew you know from before I

got to a black belt that like I I you

know it's I can be great because my

program you know I used to train with

the best in the world I used to you know

it for many years and I used to see my

progression with then everybody else so

I knew I was getting somewhere I know I

could be the best

and that was that was always my goal

since very very young

and I always believed that I could be

and that over the years that kept

telling me over and over again because

I'm getting better and better faster

than everybody else

so it's I just need to carry on with

what I'm doing but I think you've said

that you wanted to

and maybe you thought you could be the

greatest of all time

like at the very beginning like when you

sucked yeah

yeah not not the greatest of all time

because

and I never really thought about that

but I thought I'm gonna be the best in

the world when I saw it when I saw okay

so what is that uh

what is that like that's self-belief is

there a component to that self-belief

being a prerequisite it's difficult to

say because that was a decision I think

like why did I believe that could be I I

can't tell you that because I don't know

but you think you decided I decided to I

decided to be and I believed I could I

think there was like a day somewhere

when you were young where you're like

huh you're sitting at a couch eating

Cheetos I don't think it was them a day

like a moment because

for many years is I wasn't really

training much as a child you know I've

done a bit of I used to train and then

stopped on a bit of Judo never stay away

from it much but until you know it

like from 10 to 14 I barely trained juji

so much I used to there was no gracious

school near where I used to live

and I was doing there was a judo school

I used to go twice a week

I'm going to introduce torment I lost in

five seconds left cried

the guy he pulled me in five seconds

anyway

when I was 14 I went to the south of

Brazil to see my uncle Helen

to spend some summer holidays I was

there for like four weeks I think

and I want to go there my cousin Hollis

were living with him Holly is like

bigger than me it was I think it's four

years four years older so I was 14 I was

already 18 17 18. purple belt comparator

and I think that was the first time in

my life that I felt what it mean

what it meant to be a greasy

in terms of

having a school teaching training you

know living that you know judicial

lifestyle what a crazy mean to be and

I've just I've loved that

it was out of shape

my uncle was like you know incentivizing

me to lose weight to train but you're

not training why you know it's like give

what a shape you need to diet so I used

to run every day I was eating super well

I started you know I started that when I

start changing so when I go back to Rio

was super motivated to follow up carry

on and he you know he invited me to go

back there to live with him but I

couldn't it was too soon in to change

schools and everything my mom said no

but maybe next year if you want to go

you can

so I kept that in my mind next year

hey I moved to the South to live with

him I was 15.

and it was him my uncle Helen and my

uncle crawling they both used to live

very close to each other they used to

have their own schools close to each

other so I was with both and I stayed

there for almost a year I mean I was the

youngest in the academy there was some

you know blue purple Bells normal guy

but they're very competing training

ahead of me and I just joined the group

of training I didn't compete while I was

there because there was no composition

that then and I wasn't really ready but

it's not about company it's more about

the training and I start training every

day start improving and year after that

when I came back to Rio I was already on

a mission I was like I love this I'm

just carry on training every day because

my uncle Carlos Carlos Gracie Jr Grace

about

and the one I got there I was training a

little bit that before but I just 14 15

but when I got there there was a you

know there was one of that was one of

the most competitive one of the biggest

Jiu-Jitsu schools at the time there was

so many high-level World champers

competitors in every single belt and so

and I've kind of joined in with that

and I've carried I don't remember when

but I remember you know looking and

saying I'm gonna be the best in the

world but I used to be I was at the

bottom of the stairs you know no one

really believed me I didn't shower you

know to disguise but you know I told a

few people I'm like I'm gonna be the

best

and that's I think up

I was just losing but I've never ever

doubt I've never divert from that

Mission outside did anyone believe you

when you said you could be great nobody

did it matter it didn't matter I don't

care I don't need even people that like

love you everybody my mom my dad not me

no one thought no one in my family

thought I was gonna be here today nobody

because I just started late you know

I've I've never had any start that

people or that kid's gonna be really

good you know I'm always a chubby kid

that didn't barely train I mean people

used to look at me he just another

greasy this

you know one more

what do you learn from that do you think

most people

lose that self-belief they quit when

everyone around them doesn't believe

yeah I think

if if those that need approval yes

but I see you shouldn't have approval

and I'd never need approval from anyone

I don't care if you we believe you're

not if you

not my problem it's tough it's tough I

don't need approval but

you're surrounded by people older wiser

better than you and they're kind of

directly or indirectly saying you stop

being silly kid no one ever told me that

because I I it's not that was not

something that I used to say all the

time I'd maybe say it just very very few

times

I just go you know maybe that's the

secret of course I mean if you start

shouting then you've just been silly

then it's not what you really want then

you're saying that for another reasons

if you say it over and over again

because you shouldn't I mean that's why

well to push back one of the reasons you

might want to say it is to find the

right people that believe in you yeah

but more if you say over and over again

then it's just then you're just bragging

sure because

one thing is to say it but the other one

is to do it

so it's you know you say that once or

very few times but now you have to do it

saying it's not helping you getting

there was there sacrifices you had to

make everything

everything that was my priority in life

everything was secondary like social

life

career paths yeah everything

and is it from 14 15 16 as you get

better and better and better and better

it was just becoming sharper the focus

on this thing yeah it's just over and

over again over and over again it's you

know it's just training training

training and

I mean how many times I lost I I have

had no clue so on the mat you were

getting beat up I'm getting smashed by

everybody

people my age I was chubby I was

physically weak I mean I'm tall but

physically I'm not physically strong I'm

normally strong for my size but

physically

if you want to measure strength I'm weak

because you know we can measure strength

living with living with I'm weak I don't

lift I lift weight same as people much

lighter than me everybody my my weight

leaves have heavy weight and then people

that train with you often talk about how

they're strong super strong yeah because

I generate a lot of strength I can

create I I put myself in the right

angles so then I can be strong I'm not

strong and the only person who I listen

to saying that is uh computer one guy

that I fought

I fought him a few times

and he's the only one that I heard

saying about me this like no Roger's not

strong

he's not he's Technical and he's he can

create strength but he's not strong he

meant that as a compliment

yeah I think so no I think he was honest

because he I think he's the only one who

could see that yes so I think that's a

compliment so he's technically so you

had an incredible matches with him yeah

is there a

Insight you have about how you went from

a person

who was not very good

but had a a dream

a confident dream

a vision

to somebody that was actually good was

there something to the practice sessions

were you getting reps on the specific

techniques I'd never done anything

special because I mean you know I'm in a

gym training equally with everybody else

so I've never did anything on the side

different than anybody else so you know

I was in the school training this is

like the same way as everybody else wow

in terms of schedule yes but what was

can you reverse engineer what was going

through your mind because there's so

many different ways to actually mentally

approach these same exact training

sessions I'm gonna try to be

okay so in some part is competitive yeah

like at the core of it

is I want to be better than these

particular people you're going to keep

beating me I'm gonna keep coming back at

you and to do that I have to solve

problems I have to figure out how to do

stuff you catch me once

I'm Gonna Keep On Coming trying to

unlock

get get caught on that at which point

did you develop a game that was

basically the white the famous white bug

game of the very Basics the very

fundamentals of Jiu Jitsu like

saying I'm going to beat you

there was never there was never a

conscious decision to to try to you know

to have a basic judicial first

I think there's a big misconception

there okay

it's not you're right it's not basic

it's not old school I think people they

just don't see that it's extremely

complex

in a way that is is people they cannot

copy I teach people you know I can teach

you

the cross color choke

but the one thing that people didn't

realize

is not the move is you need to practice

the move until you learn

is the practice over and over again like

it took me years

when I say ears I'm like years after I

was a black belt I was able to choke

people out with a cross-color choke in

the mouth effectively years after I got

my black belt so he said that's

something that you learned first day

first week

so I can't teach you it makes no

difference

you you know the theory but until you've

applied it and you help you of course

the more details you learn you know the

the more tools you have to practice but

it's still very complex because it's not

about the move itself it's about how can

you control the movement of the other

person

he's resisting you're blocking you

cannot predict what he would do and he's

doing a whole bunch of moves to to block

you every single move you do a step of

the way because it's a is is a

progression of move from beginning to

end till I apply the joke it's a

progression of moving there's not one

way to get that there's many ways

because how many ways can you blocked

you can put your arm in every single

angle we have both arms you can Bridge

so it's dealing with all that that is

the yeah that is the complex complexity

of the position but that goes for

everything like every single move

my strong moves I would say it took me

years developing them years so it's and

you're going to tell me that's basic so

go try and do it what the other person

is defending that's the thing because

most of the things that I do

have been doing them for years and I

they know that I'm gonna do and I can

still

get it most the times

that's the hardest is when they know

what's coming and you can still do it

and he said that the way you're able to

do that you just have to do it right

yeah

what do you learn by doing

all the steps along the way and just for

people who don't know cross-color choke

from the mount

so Jiu Jitsu starts in a neutral place

there's people on their feet and then

you either then you get to the ground

somehow and then there's the person on

top and on bottom and then there's a

guard with the legs between the two

people and then you can get past the

guard as you get past the guard and you

uh into side control and so on you get

more and more and more dominant

positions and so Mount is considered to

be one of the most dominant positions

it's when you're

past their legs sitting on top of their

stomach

putting pressure on them and cross

collar choke is using their jacket to uh

how would you explain that to children I

put my both hands on your collars and

when I squeeze you you press your neck

so it blocks the venue you go to sleep

so it's a you you choke people with your

hands in the wrist you put them you know

you grab the collar so you get the

wrists around people's neck can you

squeeze yeah the discovery of that is

fascinating I mean because it's it's

interesting it's like um

you know you can imagine there's all

kinds of ways to choke

a human being

what animals do with their like mouth

right they put like their jaws around

the

and the fact that you can kind of

discover this methodology of the right

kind of positioning and then it becomes

an art form like

of why this why not this right or why

not this or something like to figure out

we practice that would come easy over

time you figure out what works and what

not on you and then and then more

further and further details and

subtleties start to emerge anyway on

that process of beating of being able to

beat some of the best people in the

world and the thing they know is coming

what is what's the difference between

the white belt doing that and hydrogracy

doing that the thing that's so hard to

explain what do you think you're picking

up is it some tiny tiny details of

muscle movements it is it's many tiny

details because

is is the whole movement itself is the

perception

from beginning to end like every step of

the movement it's important and precise

so it's you know you miss once one

detail on the way you collapse

so I'm going to start with the black

belt the black belt has no control over

their whole movement he's thinking

beginning and then

so he goes straight to you know straight

to your neck regardless he cannot read

the other person if his you know if it's

time to let go of the time to go for a

neck should I be pushing here before I

get my hand in you know is is this the

right time to go deep or should I deal

with this first before the second hand

that's at the beginning says that that

the white belt yeah at the very

beginning of the journey yeah the white

Bell to just think finish yeah

and then as you get progressed you see

that there's like this giant tree of

possibilities that you're almost feeling

your way down I mean would you be able

to teach

do you even know what you're doing

by the details okay

but it's hard to convert into words

probably uh no it's possible then you

don't know what you're doing okay uh

so what is what what is the most

important details

they could say maybe positioning of the

hand the gripping is it the positioning

of your body the posture is there some

interesting like insights It's a

combination because first you have to

put your body in a very strong position

that you don't require your hands to

hold them out

so the choke is that that's first

because

I cannot use I cannot use my hands on

the floor to stop you escaping yeah so

if I had to my body has to handle that

the way I position myself I have to do

it in a way that don't require my hands

for balance okay why is the model such a

dominant position it doesn't make any

sense right like you're just sitting on

top of the stomach of a person it makes

all sense if you think what's forget

forget fighting forget Jiu Jitsu like

you've never trained what's the one

position the most dominant position you

can get over another human being one the

most for you which one it is like the

most dominant position that you can get

over another human being

so if we were just because the way I

think about it is putting myself in like

a six seven eight year old self without

knowing any martial arts and I had an

older brother who would beat the shit

out of me

uh yeah it probably was Mount

it what

but

well yes okay so we both didn't know but

if you knew something it'd probably be

back control

if in the back control you're under the

other person the thing being under is

the most dominant position it can be

over another person

you mean like a back control if I'm on

your back oh like that you can move you

can roll I cannot stop you rolling yeah

maybe you can even stand up how dominant

is that yeah but if we're the same size

both untrained it doesn't matter have

you seen kids do they do that okay

mount looks and feels like dominance

when you're two eight-year-olds fighting

okay I don't know I don't know why it

feels that way it could be some

animalistic thing maybe it is actual

dominance I don't know but it feels like

if you're on trained you can just buck

your way out of it it feels unstable it

feels unstable to hold mouth unless you

know what you're doing right no well if

you if you're multiple both of your

hands on the floor yeah just your hands

to think it's easier to take somebody

off

yeah maybe not to think it's easy to

remove the hand and bring them out the

hands on the floor I'm straight I'm

leaning in

yeah you're right it's hot

I mean you don't need to know fighting

to hold yourself down yeah but you're

right when you take the arms off and

balancing then it gets tricky because

when you're trying to uh I think what

happens I'm thinking back to

eight-year-old because my my brother's

five years older than me and he would do

the usual like stop hitting yourself

thing and you I think he'll be in mouth

like hitting me with my own hands uh

from at a place of Love of course I love

them deeply and it was very formative

and uh positive experience for me okay

um I think yeah the weakness is when he

takes

well when the person who has your mouth

takes their arms off to to do something

but even if you keep your hands opened

yeah when I'm falling

yeah okay I'm not falling so I'm

speaking about untrained people I feel

like they get greedy they try to do

stuff the other day I watched my

nine-year-old daughter yeah well I'm in

a friend's house

there's a whole bunch of kids that

they're playing

and when I looked

she's mounting a boy her age her size he

cannot Escape wow she probably has seen

no she trans she's been training for

almost a year and a half okay which is

not much I mean she's a nine-year-old

daughter a girl over a boy has she seen

footage of you maybe she picked up no

but she appreciate she'd been training

for a year and a half so she has an idea

what Mount is but

I mean it talks about skills I don't

never taught her them out yeah she has

you know she had lessons at the Academy

like any other kid did she make him cry

or no but he couldn't escape

which which are the position would she

be able to hold that boy

you know in the back he would roll it

out that's true like he couldn't come

out from underneath her shoes in decades

like there is no other most dominant

position that you can pin the other

person couldn't you argue

from that perspective side control no no

because I control you have to to hold

the other person

and it's you're not free you you cannot

release them but inside control your

hips are not on top of theirs

they can't Buck you off right

can you if you're holding them a little

bit and then you can hit them with one

hand but his head is here you're gonna

hurt him here by the time you're doing

that but then he has his arms free and

if you turn towards your legs

then he's away from your arms you're not

even has the perfect angle I mean it is

a good position you can hit you can

dominate but it's not the best position

to be over the other person he can knee

you in the head at the same time you

punch him then there's a knee come into

your head

I love playing Devil's Advocate to hide

Your Grace about two eight-year-olds

fighting and you and you your head is

closer to his hand yeah maybe he can

give throw you a punch all right so

would you choose to be inside control of

a mouth

getting in the head well for a person

who in competition prefers neon belly

over her mouth

but that's my weakness that's my failure

as a human being holding him out is is

can be tricky it's very hard

of course it's hard

but what is easy

control in neon Bell is easier but neon

Bell is easy

easier I'm not saying black belt level

I'm saying well maybe even black belt

these are for what to hold somebody

to make them squirm and hurt

to create openings with a big guy yeah

you can you can't yeah

he's gonna push it back and come up in

the mouth he can't sit up not when he

mounted him the thing is also about Mao

is people on the bottom of mouth Panic

it's the most exposure you you have

because the first arms are free you

cannot touch him his head is too high

there's nothing he can do his legs won't

get you anywhere he might touch your

lower back it's like nothing

you do you you most expose being in the

mouth

already you hope inside control a

thousand times the amount of me and

having to look up for your fist come

down

yeah side control I heard you you cannot

hurt me

okay hold me but I'm hugging you if I

hug you tight what can you do against me

hold it it seems maybe it's just from uh

and again I'm arguing just for the fun

of it but

it seems like a more difficult

skill to learn

to apply a huge amount of pressure and

weight from Mount you don't have some

slight pressure and weight from mouth or

not apply pressure but be heavy right

you don't necessarily need to be heavy

you don't

no why do you as people say you feel

extremely heavy if I'm putting if I'm

being heavy I cannot attack

yes I I have to choose I can be heavy

just to penalize you know just to

pin them take the energy out you know to

make them suffer but the moment that I

decide to attack I can only behave him

if I'm sitting up straight that's when

my all my weight can drops down if I'm

high then I'm sitting on your chest and

on your own solar plexus that's the

worst position to be said added on the

person because that's where he breathed

so you're in a high mouth sitting up

straight that's when you can I can be

very heavy I can make people you know

feel my weight and you know be very

uncomfortable but I'm not in a position

to attack the moment that I want to

attack my body has to lean forward I

have to approach the you know the neck

of the arms the moment that I do that my

weight comes off my hips it goes to my

knees the way it is off you

but at that point if you have now I'm

attacking I'm no longer heavy on you but

you want to be at that point to remove

any of the defenses they have or some of

the defenses by getting there now now

I'm like either getting trying to get

your call or bringing your elbow across

to talk to your unlock so what are some

interesting details along the way that

are tough to get to figure out

what were the big leaps for you from

white belt to to the best in the world

it's you're trying to attack the neck

you know putting one hand in the collar

you're priving yourself that hand to

place it on the floor yeah so now you're

vulnerable to get bridge to get rolled

over because if your hands are free

trying to roll you over you stopped the

moment they put your hand in the

person's collar now you have to be very

careful with your body positioning very

careful the distribution of the weight

yeah and how you you know how high you

sit you know how tall you you your upper

body goes and then the biggest challenge

comes as you try the second hand that's

the you know for the for the choke

that's the biggest challenge the second

hand because you already have you you

know you already don't have one hand now

you you are trying the second hand and

if one of my hand is in you you know as

a uh defending yourself have two hands

one hand is already on one side this

this side is getting attacked you have

two hands blocking that I have one hand

there's no help for that hand I cannot

remove anything that's the biggest

challenge getting one hand getting past

two

and not getting rolled over but I also

have to have two hands on bottom I have

two hands and can also turn and do all

kinds of stuff yeah

and my whole mind and everything is

focused on that second hand

it's a big challenge it's hard very hard

is there an art to getting the first

hand into a place where you it's less of

an art because it's easier I'll say most

times I get my first hand in is when you

you try some move you're trying to

escape you're pushing I get with the

first handing as an opportunity and it's

gonna sit there for a while

and now and I go as deep as I can so the

first hand because the second hand is

the hardest I have to compensate the

first thing to be as deep as I can right

if I cannot get the first hand in deep I

won't try the second

I need that first hand deep then I go

for this and it's deep in it everything

is like super like tight super tight the

first hand has to be super tight

otherwise the chance of failing is very

big okay does the opponent usually feel

like they're screwed at that point also

no as you put in the first hand and the

moment that I position myself just prior

to attempt the second hand I think the

way I my body is positioned the way I'm

I'm collapsing with my weight and the

field is like it's I'm in a

this is terrible yeah how long did it

take you to figure out how to reposition

your weight once the first hand is in

very quickly because door get reached

out

okay so that there's a good feedback

loop yeah because one mistake you out

like one off positioning you out but you

still have to do that against the best

people in the world yeah where is the

way out for most people like if you were

in Mount against pusheshire or some of

the best defenses in the world uh

the way out is to I mean obviously is to

defend themselves and you know prevent

the first hand to get deep and I'll say

the best

thing that they could do is try to

change my positioning on the mount in a

way that you know pushed me to a very

low amount you know try to just to to to

to change the way I'm dominating you not

to be you know to get me off the high

mount pretty much are you always is it

as slow is it a fast thing to go from

low to low a high mode slow very slow

because I need to beat your arms because

you're holding me down and the arms need

to come out it's a slow it's a slow

process okay and you just is there like

a yeah you saw use my legs against your

arms so it's my legs pushing your arms

but how do you get them how do you get

your legs into the elbows as long as

this

you know it has to come under the tip of

your elbow because now the legs will

start forcing your arms up

so your legs are like spread out there

no they're in your elbow cannot get

inside my leg right because that because

that means I'm in a very low amount

and then I cannot attack because I

cannot ignore that because the mode that

I attack that will

you will stop pushing my leg to push me

out

what's the secret to getting the second

hand in

there's two ways either you go four

fingers inside which is the hardest

because with the moment that your two

hands are defending

you'll be blocking the the you know the

the way and I cannot clear and attack

two hands against one so I go summon I

go behind the ear yep so my my grip goes

because for you to defend you need to

get there yeah and when you get there

you elevate your air will expose the arm

lock

put the thumb in and then there's the uh

dreaded

like the other person just waits for you

to Loop the arm over how about that this

will it's a once you get the thumb and

it's over

okay no but when I'm there it's if I get

that it could be a bridging you know

they try and I mean I'm not using their

hand to post

now your head is your head is very close

to the floor when you've tried to Bridge

and you know my forehead would touch the

floor that would be used as a hand but

it's not on the floor not necessarily

okay because if it's on the floor my

body's collapse over you yeah so there's

no place for my hand for me to work on

your neck so I need some space between

us so I don't completely make it bob up

and down yeah I try to keep a gap

between us okay

so that Pursuit that takes many many

many many many years

I don't know if you've seen Giro Dreams

of Sushi the

doing the simple thing

that's not so simple but it kind of

looks simple of the over and over and

over and over and over and presumably

getting much better and simple it

becomes very simple but you're picking

up details probably along the way

there's wisdom along the way

what is that is that um

there's like lessons that you just kind

of accumulate over time like one

training sessions you'll see

maybe

like the positioning

of the thumb like this detailed

positioning of the thumb or something

like this and then you like okay if you

like load that in

that that would be very basic because

there is not that many different ways

maybe one two I just do one any other is

not as strong because it's it's about

getting a strong grip on Your Collar I

mean the sun is it's the thumb goes

inside you know is it the thumb in or or

four fingers in base getting a strong

grip on the call as long as they know

this

is just holding yeah and feeling strong

so that's just two options so uh it's

the dynamic stuff along the way that

yeah and then some of that timing too

it's timing are you also like making

people like faking them out making them

think about something else no not at

that point

that's not because I cannot fake

anything else at that point

because I'll have to change my

positioning to you know maybe to fake an

arm look then I have to move out from

that so then I will lose that the

control I have so what's the process

towards Mastery if you were to convert

that to something that generalizes

Beyond jiu jitsu how can you get

that good at a simple thing practice

and what that simple the same exact

thing over and over it's just a matter

of how long it would take

so all

that's true that's true I mean like I

said that's true look how long it took

people give up along the way

there is um intricacies to that Journey

towards Perfection there's a lot of

people that do Jiu Jitsu for decades

and don't get better no because they

don't train the way they should they

don't train to get better they train to

get tough there's a big difference

most people they train to get tough so

they are tough you know like we were

talking before they don't practice the

weakness you want to be good at you want

to be really good at jiu jitsu

you have to practice your weakness not

your strength

you have to practice everything but you

have to be equally strong in every

position they all exactly the same you

know you your guard top bottom side

control top bottom Turtle half guard

mount back I mean you pick take down

it's and then you get into details of

escaping triangle

it's applying the you know triangle

escaping arm lock difference scenarios

of you know it's the one thing is

defending the amlock when you you know

you have your time your arms very close

to your body the other thing is to

defend the arms when your arm is you

know almost getting and then when he got

your arms so this

so many things to practice

that you need to repeat them over and

over again until you confidence enough

that when you get there you have a

chance and you can do the same kind of

thing for even the final stages of a

cross joke from everything I mean of

course like you don't practice skipping

the unlock with a full arm straight

because you know it's it's gone

I mean you practice

you know you practice keeping the arm

lock when he takes your arm you have you

know you have a chance of trying to

escape but you don't practice you know

okay take my arm when I say go Go I mean

you got you know you pop the arm

that is like you get injured doing that

escaping the cross color choke it's

I mean Escape not letting the person get

there you can escape you can practice

keeping triangles because you know it's

like it's you you have a way better

chance of skipping Triumph but then okay

mount on me put both hands in my neck I

mean it's over you know don't be there

what's the best submission in Jiu-Jitsu

a choke I would say for which position

if if a billion dollars

to start in a position

like uh in a submission and you only get

the billion if if you get the submission

which one would you start choking them

up Costco checking them not from the

back

no you have a better chancecaping from

the back

really yeah even with the hooks even

with everything do you think some people

disagree with you I don't care I have a

better Escape I have a better chance

skating from the back than if you mount

on me put my hands on my neck so I've

been that many you are facing yourself

and I will give you a billion dollars to

escape

you you would uh you would pick from the

back a thousand times over like really

no compare you have like uh with hooks

with like a triangle like that matter

you can do whatever you want but like a

body triangle okay

okay

a thousand times over so what no

questions it's you the mount is a super

controlling position it's not just

because

cross color choking the amount the

moment they put both hands on my neck

you know you have to your arms need to

be very close to your body to attack so

that means there's very little space

between us so that means there's very

little escape space for you to work on

your escape and the moment that you

cannot Bridge let's suppose I have you

know the person has a good Mouse so he

cannot Bridge him off what else you

don't have space to try to work on your

defense being in the back I have all the

space around me to work on my difference

in my arms I have the mobility to bring

them anywhere

so I because of that it gives you me a

much better chance

and yeah you cannot I can move my body

you feel my you feel my back you you

cannot pin me

you know my I cannot take you off my

back first I need to defend the choke

but you have no control over my body so

that means there's still a lot of

movement that I can try to use to escape

in the mount there's no movement I'm

pinned down I cannot move and I have no

space between us to escape well the

argument against that this is great is

that on the bottom of Mount I the uh I

do have my hands between

so you're saying they're pinned there's

nothing between where I mean you could

get them in theory you could somehow you

could but there's no you can but then

there's no space they'll be squeezed

between our bodies if it's an incredible

if it's an incredible amount no it does

not Mount like how standing if I put

both hands on your neck if I'm gonna go

for the cross collar choke after I get

my hands in the next step is to pull you

close to me so it's this my arms needs

to be closer again

put there's a hands that could do

something they can come in but this they

are very limited space between us yes

yes no I mean to push your body away

only through standing not if your back

is against the floor okay the argument

against the mount is uh or the argument

for back controls being the most

dominant position is even though I have

hands I can't really use them

effectively

as effect 9 the mount

there's no space there's no space you

can try

I mean you can squeeze your hand in I

mean there's there's still things that

you could do but they're so limited so

if you pulled

the 100 best competitors of all time

what do you think they would answer to

that do you think most would agree with

you

I don't care

please

it will show me

their skills the ability to see okay so

the perfect mount versus the perfect

back control there's no question okay

there's no question for me

I mean argue with me like show me

because I'm not being stubborn because

I'm being I've been scientific

so explain it to me why the back it you

would be harder it would be better to

your position to finish them out if if

you can explain it to me why

I might change my mind I was trying to

but uh

I don't I don't have the cred

I'm like a middle school a science

student trying to talk to Einstein here

okay besides you who do you think is the

greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all

time

can you make the case for some of them

Marcelo Russia

liangelo I'll have to go with bushesha

because look at the how many titles he

has I mean

he has by far more than Marcelo Marcelo

stopped quietly

londolo has eight but

sure she's better than him what do you

think makes procession so good

he's a heavyweight that moves like a

lightweight his removes very fast but

he's very agile for his size

so the uh the agility combined with

aggression yeah so it's very hard to

control him because he moves fast

and he's 112 kilos more than 15

sometimes or 110 I'm not sure but he's

about around that so 240 in in pounds so

when you when you agile 200 to 240

pounds that makes it very hard to

control you what about making the case

for some others what about the little

guys or about Marcelo if you were to

make the case for him being the

strongest what makes Marcelo good masal

gas is extremely technical I mean I

think he's he's one of my favorite

judges of Fighters

because in in a technical way I think

he's probably one of the best because

raw technique in a bunch of different

positions for submissions he's

he's not very powerful you know

physically he's not very strong

but he can make himself very strong and

his technique is very very high level

have you ever uh trained with him not

fight him twice yeah

he's more smaller than me it's what

happened in those matches the first

fight I topped him I think five minutes

in which submission choke from the back

color choke from the back

and the second time I beat him by points

but a very large I think 12 to

actually uh

just to continue

uh I wonder if uh if John Donahoe would

agree with you about Mountain back I

can't wait to this is a bear versus lion

conversation but I'm looking there's

there's statistics about

I'm not letting this go uh there's

statistics about

oh look at that Roger what do you know

looking at Hydra Gracie's statistics for

um most successful submissions choke

from the back yeah is the most

because people panic when I'm out ah

they turn the back I choked them out

that's one explanation uh but for people

it is interesting that uh of course this

doesn't capture but this captures a lot

of your major matches

and we should say that you've submitted

most of your opponents so you rarely win

on points usually wins submissions

choke from back is most of them then

cross joke from about arm bars a lot too

so 18 from choke from back 12 cost joke

10 armbar

uh five RNC rear naked this is for nogi

okay so Ezekiel is very powerful I took

I'll use it's a strong weapon yeah also

from Mount for also from Up

oh that's when you can't get the one

hand in no because the Ezekiel most

times I use against people is is that

is the attack that as soon as I get to

the Mount when they're trying to escape

the open up and I get them it has to be

at that initial

timing so it's not a thing you use to

like bother them in order to create

either I get it right right away or I

don't bother trying much because you

need to keep one hand behind the head

and that um you're naturally on that

position as soon as you're Mount most of

the times and the moment that you mount

someone no one accepted they go mount it

they're gonna expose to get out so hold

in the head it gives you a better way

way to dominate them initially you know

to deal with that explosiveness on the

big on the initial in the beginning

and then but then we have to let go to

try it you're very limited hold in the

head

in terms of goats uh shanji

I feel like he doesn't get enough credit

that he deserves he had an extremely

dominant performance in competition what

about solo and Sanji hibera what are

your thoughts about what makes them so

good yeah a bunch of tough matches with

ashanji yeah and Solomon eight times

yeah for eight times shown there I

fought solo once

what uh

I think I'm bringing up a sore Point

oh did Sanji tap when you uh or did the

time right out and that uh was the last

time you guys face each other yeah 2008.

that was incredible to watch uh also

I think you pull guard with one minute

left working towards or attacking I mean

it's probably very tough to get anything

and uh for people who don't know time

ran out you had uh something that looked

like an arm block

and uh shanji

look like he may be tapping but it

looked like he might be just celebrating

which is mostly I'm not sure I'm not

sure it was

I'm not sure because

I think he's I'm just just straight he's

on time finish yeah so I'm not sure if

it was tapping to you know to let go

time time's up or because of the outside

most likely the time was up yeah and

also there's a thing where you start you

realize there's only three two seconds

left he used to kind of start

celebrating you realize that hydra's not

gonna be able to finish this armbar in

the time left so you start celebrating

no I think he topped to say the time the

time was up anyway what do you think

like the longevity especially is

impressive with with uh with shanji how

long I think he doesn't get credit as

much as he deserves because he pushed

his career very far and the last few

years he was on his best

so he's

if you were to stop before you know you

would people would remember him on his

highest

but he kind of pushed

more than his

Peak let's say

how hard is it for you to walk away

we'll talk about the journey into MMA as

well but you basically especially with

the second match against Patricia

basically walked away on top

um beating arguably the greatest

competitor of all time

um and just walking away

it wasn't that hard to be honest because

there was something that I was

considering for a while

because the last few years of my career

let's say

he was fighting MMA at the same time I

was fighting Jiu Jitsu and it's very

challenging to do both

like I don't there's not another person

who ever did that because the training

is a confliction with the Y train

everybody who start doing MMA start

focusing MMA

the Jiu Jitsu gets worse because they

stopped training with Diggy

everybody no exception

was your Jiu Jitsu also getting worse no

because I made sure I kept training with

the ghee and I kept fighting at least

the world championship once a year that

was my goal I'm like I'm gonna go for

MMA but I I love Jujitsu and I still

want to fight the highest level so I

kept fighting once a year for a few

years

it was a challenge

especially because the two or three

times when I competed other words it was

right after I MMA fight ahead and then

you know no you don't you you don't have

the grips so if my grips it made a big

difference

oh my grace so I was weaker great price

so I failed that so I knew it was like

it's it's unnecessary risk because I'm

not if I cannot be 100 so what am I

doing this but I'm stubborn I love

Jujitsu that's like I love if I

introduced to I never loved MMA I've

liked it but I think it for Grace I

wouldn't have done it

so the the thing you felt the most

is uh the grips yeah

yeah because you want a ghee World

Championship without gripping no like

just pretending it's no game match they

get to grip you but you don't no so

grips are essential of course I mean how

can you choke someone like it's if your

grips are weak you you your forearms

will fatigue

and then you will have no power and then

you cannot do anything yeah

you could still arm lock and you can

so I meant more not for the submission

but for the control of the game of it

but you need to opportunity to grip to

get there to get there

and if it was a week

but you also have grips and nogi can she

use those grips no it's a thought

experiment so like I'm trying to

understand how essential I gotta get a

new guy go fight with the git they Panic

they Panic of course everyone panics a

bear panics when they're in the water

with a shark but that doesn't mean the

bear can still win when it stops

panicking and relaxes

it's not possible that's another

discussion can a bear beat a shark in

the water

actually I need to put maybe a polar

bear because they're pretty good at

swimming okay I say not possible for the

no gear guy to win but the Bears is it

for the discussion

what was to you the biggest difference

between mixed martial arts and uh jiu

jitsu what are some interesting

differences some interesting insights

even just about the grappling within

both Sports

so the biggest difference for me between

MMA and Jiu-Jitsu is first is the speed

like Jiu Jitsu you know like a 10

minutes match I can take my time there's

no dangers there that forces me to move

fast

MMA you have to be 100 Sharp

in fast from

first second of the fight because

punches are coming can get knocked out

anytime one mistake you're out you just

don't have that like it's I don't have

to worry about quick submissions because

it's all about the way my body is

positioned you know my grips is easy to

avoid it's easier to see it coming

like it's like a quick submission a

surprise it only works if you make a

mistake if you're not correct

positioning otherwise it's impossible

it's extremely difficult MMA is not I

mean one Split Second mistake and when

the person comes

you have to respond you have to to match

your space I mean you can slow down but

it's like you you're forced to respond

so that much faster is that it's a lot

more physical a lot more

and you need to be physical much better

conditioning faster it's explosiveness

it's much harder is it possible in the

MMA to

calm things down unless if they change

the rules yeah five minute rules now

ah I see so like uh I just meant

actually technically speaking is there

ways to

to take an opponent that's being

exceptionally aggressive you can clinch

clinch but then he takes her down he

keeps moving something is hard to

control that pace

you can you don't if you play defense

you you save more energy than if you try

to beat aggressor and respond and even

get into the coins is very difficult

yeah you have no way to hold yourself

there

so that was the biggest challenge for me

in MMA is the speed because I'm a very

slow start fighter if you look at my

matches I start very slow because if I

go hard you know I fatigue faster so for

me that was the hardest part

of is to start fast

what about on the ground is there

something different

more challenging in the ground being in

the bottom yes the sponges yeah how

fundamentally different is jiu-jitsu's

punches on the ground that changes

everything everything

which which parts the the distance that

you allow your opponent to be on you the

techniques that you choose to apply

you know you you have to

but your body has to be aware of the

punches and you know you are a lot more

limited on your attacks like so you're

you're known for your closed guards how

does your closed guard have to adjust

how does the positioning of your hands

have to adjust when you're on the bottom

of close guard so in the garden

especially the close guard you you have

to either keep the person very close to

you or you have to kick him away that's

in the God is either I'm hugging you or

get away from any Jiu Jitsu you're

allowed to have a middle yeah there's a

lot of you can allow the person to be

what about getting a a arm lock or a

triangle submissions from the from the

guard is is that fundamentally different

because you don't have the middle game

is much harder

there's barely no open guard

in MMA very little

because the open guard there's a

distance between you and him yeah

there's a distance you how you you

cannot control it's much harder to

control that punch coming and I have to

position myself a way to block that and

it limited my attacks my options of

attacks is there a reason

correct me if I'm wrong but I don't

think you do open guard much in Jiu

Jitsu and nogi

is there a reason for that

it's harder with the explosive uh

explosion of person

because it's you know when they're

moving fast then you have to try to slow

them down so you like guards that allow

you to control the person

and closed guard is the ultimate control

oh no it's not ultimate control but

close guy puts in a position that I'm

attacking and you're defending you

cannot attack me for my close guard

we can argue that this might be one or

two attacks but it's like

very very very limited and

depends who you're fighting against

but I I hate the Coast Guard of being on

top well against a good close guard is

no one likes this is terrible it's

horrible yeah it's one-sided yeah so

you're in the garden is one-sided the

person the brother has the advantage I

can be completely relaxed in my closed

guard

and I cannot be completely relaxed you

know the most annoying thing is is

somebody who is both good and extremely

confident with a close card because they

have that smug energy about them they

know how much unpleasant how much work

it takes to pass this anyway

um especially people with longer legs

is there something you um wish you did

differently in how you started trading

at MMA in that trajectory and figuring

out how to train how to get good like

what have you learned about getting good

at MMA

from having done it if you were to start

now for example

I think I would have to dedicate it more

I didn't dedicate enough

uh both like literally time number of

training sessions training yeah but also

mental training wise physics yeah I

think a lot more the physical part of it

the strikes everything the strike from

the beginning it's

because

I mean I love Jujutsu like it's I truly

love the old aspects of it fighting

training you know the practice the

competition

I don't have that for MMA so it's hard

to to give your heart to it something

that you don't have the passion to it

like Jiu Jitsu you know I gave my heart

to it like I did everything that I had

to MMA I never I didn't do that so

that's why it was

I won't say it was wrong for me to to

have to to do it because I don't regret

doing I always

you know looking back as a kid when I

decided to you know to be to take Jiu

Jitsu for life I I already knew that

some point I would have to do MMA

there's almost like that's the path of a

Gracie you know you when you're ready

you go to MMA

so there was a like a Duty versus a love

yeah that was that was not a choice that

was like I have to

that's just the the life I took he will

lead that way

are you proud of that stuff you know go

against the natural love and towards

more Duty

I think

I don't regret it because if I hadn't

done it I would feel there was something

missing yeah so I don't regret doing I

would regret not doing

the the tricky thing is the choice to go

to MMA

could have compromised your ability to

win against Patricia

and it didn't and it's um it's a

fascinating

case study it still doesn't make sense

to me they after all those years you're

able to come back and go against the

best person in the world and beat him

yeah

and I had to because the first fight we

had

I had something stuck in my throat for a

long time

you think so you think about that oh

yeah I'm like as soon as that first

fight finished

a headset I that got stuck in my throat

that I already at that point I knew I'm

gonna have to fight him again I knew

I always knew

because there's no choice I have to oh

man all right well

in terms of nogi who do you think is the

best no-gi competitor of all time

there's no question you know this Gordon

I mean it's

I don't think it's right to say the best

comparative of all time because he's

still very young I think that's

something that he came back in the end

of when the person you don't want him to

get lazy you know what I'm saying I mean

but you cannot praise someone in the

middle of his career you know so it's

you cannot call him the best ever he's

26 or 27. so it's I mean he's he's great

he's very good he's ahead of all of

other competitors I think

and I mean he's having an amazing career

you know he's doing amazingly well

so I mean when he's when he finished

when he finally retired

then you can I go like

you know what there's wisdom in that

it matters how you finish right of

course it's very interesting

I think that nogi is relatively new

that Noki seen that was not there wasn't

a scene before

I think you started now on his

generation you know his time because

before

like when I was competing you know he

was just ADCC there's nothing else

every two years and my first was only in

the Emirates you know you should have

you had to go there to compete

so there was not even a scene there was

like this one tournament that gives a

lot of money to

you know to competitors to Fighters and

it brings fighters from other modalities

you know to

Marca Venice day or you know some

wrestlers

Greco-Roman you know they can compete

against each other

and they you know they create that

settle rules try not to favor anyone

so that was it so you cannot be called

the greatest dogia of all time if you

only have one torment

every two years only in memories they

have to be invited to but I think now

you know the degree grew a lot now we

have so many different tournaments now

we have a scene you have people that

only train nogi they're fully dedicated

to nogi then you have supervised

different tournaments so now it's it is

now you know now it's professionally you

can do just no dinner which before was

unheard of it because you you have one

or two Thomas if you cannot be called a

no-gi Fighter fighting one so two one

seven two years twice every two years

and now there's an entire yeah systems

that are optimized for Noki that could

be fundamentally different like what do

you think about the body lock

like this passing with the body lock I I

don't know if you get an understanding

of it yeah that I think it's okay

it's uh it's a popular way to uh what is

to maybe to apply to stay tight to stay

tuned very close to your parents your

your opponent so he can't push create

distance he can push away but somehow it

uh shuts down the hips as well

yep makes it more difficult to yeah kind

of trap your legs you'd see your back

gets stuck on against the floor

are you like scientifically

curious about these new developments do

you think do you do you have answers in

your head to them

most

so body lock is one interesting one

obviously foot locks is another and

that'll mean just the full locks but the

whole like control aspect of foot locks

that's interesting and there's other

there's other interesting stuff John is

really into uh

the wrestling aspect but not wrestling

wrestling but wrestling everywhere Jiu

Jitsu at all levels of the plane

um that's that's very interesting

because you know obviously you just was

not really been you know unlike like

Freestyle Wrestling and so on has not

been this like a systematic scientific

rigorous exploration of wrestling it's

like you're on your feet and you're on

the ground not

academic he tried to you know numbers

mathematic everything well you kind of

are too yeah

oh I mean that

I am because you have to understand what

you're doing you know there's a

everything there's a step by step

like logistic like details every single

move there's a reason for it you know

there's things around that happens it's

the more you know the better you are

right the more knowledgeable

compared to whatever

so I think with the foot locks with the

nogi like if you look back

you know if you think of used to be seen

as a really bad thing to attack the foot

it wasn't seen as a good options of

attack

mainly what is a respectable gentleman

don't attack the lake or what no because

if you look back you know the Thomas the

one they were created all the rules and

everything else was to simulate a real

fight with no punches we're now having a

ghee I mean if you ask what is Jiu Jitsu

like what are you trying what's the main

goal of jiu jitsu to dominate your

opponent what's the middle of fighting

it's refining it's of course submission

is the ultimate goal

but the the you know before that the

main goal is to dominate you like we're

fighting I have to dominate you and then

the submission comes

and foot locks it's I don't require any

domination on you I don't I I don't need

to be in a dominant position to attack

your foot and is this if I attack your

foot you're still free to knock me out

if your body goes down to my foot I can

still come close to you or stand up and

I'll punch you so it's not a good

position to be in a real fight

yeah to attacking the foot I mean how

many times you've seen that going bad

they're going bad in in MMA fight I mean

of course you had you know some sort of

success with the hookup it's no

questions but how many times went wrong

people who are knocked out attacking

their foot so you can't say it's the

best position to be it's it's okay to go

but it's a very high risky position to

go so that's why it's not in a real

situation it's not seen as a good thing

so when you translate that to jiu jitsu

and attacking the foot is not seen as a

good thing because when you reflect that

to a real situation it's not going to go

down well

so he was always seen as a as an easy

way out you know easy cut you're trying

you're trying to do the easy path you

can't pass my guard you can't dominate

and then you're trying to attack my foot

that's why I was always seen as a you

know it's not as a best a great

submission of which win but the sad side

effect of that is it was completely

underdeveloped because of that

of course so people never really

developed that but now they do the

torments the the fighting it got

completely not completely but you got

some it's not longer seen as you know as

a simulation of the real thing now is uh

now's a sport it's only seen as a sport

so now it doesn't matter if you attack

my foot you cannot punch me so why is it

bad now to attack the foot

this is not seen as a bad thing anymore

and

it now it got really developed

I don't know that's another

Bear versus Shark question but you know

there is

in a street self-defense situation it's

possible to imagine where foot locks

would be effective for a highly but I

guess if you invest 10 000 hours it's

better to invest it in chokes yeah to

dominate you if I'm you know if I were

fighting

it's way better for me to be on your

side control on the mount where I can

pin you'll be completely safe then to

stay inside your legs trying to attack

your foot

but people would argue that there's a

lot of very dominant controlling

positions in the whole football game

right it is but it can go bad very

quickly yeah just no it I mean this

there's some great ways to control

someone that he cannot Escape but it can

go bad very quickly that's the thing

well even back control can go bad very

quickly on the street

so Mount I don't know is mount a really

good position but then then there's no

good position then

there's no every every position there's

a risk okay

attacking the foot is a way higher risk

than side control mount back

as I'm saying the back is not the best

way to pin someone unless you underneath

because I if you try to rotate I can

sacrifice the back and just allow you

push be in the mouth okay there you go

would you prefer Mount or back Mount or

they're flattened like uh

still Mount sorry I gotta get you

uh so yeah going back to Gordon what do

you think makes that guy so good we were

just a ADCC got to see him uh

historically dominant performance

he's dedication

the way he trains and how much he trains

and of course you have to add his mind

his belief

to really try to be good

the best or you know I don't know what

his goals are but I know he's trying to

be better than his opponents so his

belief are very strong

his dedication he probably trains more

than everybody else

I mean I'm I haven't seen firsthand it

but from what I hear interviews with him

and everybody else training I you know

the way everybody trains yeah you know

trying to for my

uh little knowledge I have I I'll bet he

trains more than everybody else and most

important how he trains

and when I I kind of already knew but

when I heard John podcast with you the

other day John was explaining the

preparation the training for the ADCC

and that kind of gave me a very strong

idea how they've been training all these

years

so you know when we said it's you have

to work on your weakness so you have no

weakness

he trains a lot on his weakness which

not everyone does that you know if you

look although I'm not gonna name but you

know or the main schools when like very

strong competitors great comparatus so

super tough people

but super tough

not great

because they train they Spa very hard

that makes them tough

if you want to be good you have to work

on your weakness

because

when you spaw like we're saying how many

times you're gonna practice

Escape in a bad position like a

submission hold or a pinning position

side control Mount or this very little

the amount time you get to spend on

those positions if you don't start there

so that

he's very smart the way he trains and

part of that is also cerebral it's not

just putting yourself in those positions

but talking through different ideas like

they they talk

they like experiment

it's very like at at first glance it's

like philosophical almost

is you're trying to create systems

constantly trying to understand how this

fits into this big picture and and then

it goes back to what is Jiu Jitsu what

is fighting he's fighting for dominance

you know he's fighting for the ultimate

dominance positions which is back him

out there's no others and from that you

finish so if you look back at his you

know over the years thought you know of

his past fights

before he used to mainly focus in legs

and over the past few years now he's

mainly focusing in finishing from the

mountain back

but that's when he became really good

uh so part of that is Mr John Donahue

what do you think you've you've you've

known John for a long time what makes

that guy

interesting uh special and and good what

have you learned about Jiu Jitsu in life

from John donoher he's super smart

I mean eccentric and he leaves

through Jiu Jitsu he's 24 7 thinking

better ways to teach how to make his

competitors better

and that as a coach when you have that

dedication as a coach that it makes the

most difference of your athletes like

which other big team you have that coach

with that motivation

all the other

schools is either someone that competes

that push the training like on drug

overall it's not he's one of the

competitors so he brings the hype in

everyone else but he doesn't have the

time he doesn't spend the time working

individually I mean I'm sure he does but

he's limited because he's also a

competitor

and you know looking

most of the other big schools like

you don't have that nowadays all the

leaders the the main coaches for The

Other big schools they have other things

all the things in their lives they could

not don't fully dedicate it to the

athletes John does

you know look at the interview he spends

hours and hours a day studying how can

await a system you know to make his

athletes better

look at the results

I enjoy just sitting back and forth you

can actually just get him you control

him essentially by sending interesting

videos and you could just see his mind

he's gonna do research on that because I

kept sending him videos of bears because

he claimed

that a lion would beat a bear because

I'd love to get your take on this okay

so the bear is much bigger much stronger

but his take is that the Bears don't

have experience of fighting to the death

that's not part of the culture they're

more scared in fact he keeps sending me

footage of like even like a small

mountain lion scaring a bear away

because they're they don't want to fight

so his idea is that it really matters

your life experience how much you fight

it's not necessarily the skill

um like the dimensions the the

characteristics you have

uh but then I send him I'll show you

people should

um Google this it's bears fighting of

any kind and it's it's pretty much the

most epic thing ever

here I'll show you

like look at these guys the cardio

though is interesting you know it's

funny I was going to mention that

because I was you know flipping to

internet I came I came

around that video look how big these

guys are no they huge but she they don't

buy each other

you think it's just playing they're

trying to no intimidating because they

don't want to get hurt

so they try to size each other up you

know they they'll see the whole fighting

his sizing each other up there's a lot

of pushing and the the the fur is so

thick so the cloth doesn't really damage

much

and they're using the tree so maybe they

they yeah they're I mean there is bites

but see there's very little

so the whole time they trying to

intimidate the other one like winning

the fight by their size

and mostly about like the way drunk

college kids fight which is like some

kind of display of dominance versus

actual yeah they're not fighting to kill

and bear or tiger you know they they

fight to Finish unless the odd one runs

away like one will die

yeah the Lions attacks yeah I uh well

look at the cardio look how bad the

cardio is I wonder how

uh my favorite part is when one of them

just like stands behind a tree it says

all right he's holding things

let me catch my breath he sits down he's

like all right you can't it's over

it's like uh it's the equivalent in the

in the in the forest tapping out all

right all right you got me yeah look

they're both like uh just shot

and but see the thing is that I was

trying to make an argument for is that

we get this rare footage it's not rare I

mean there's like hundreds of videos but

it's not millions of videos because

there's a huge number of bears and I was

trying to say that there's some badass

bear we don't know about

because he just goes in there

and just does work

and we just don't know about it because

he's

like ever see the thing is if you kill a

lot of other animals you probably have a

territory that nobody's gonna mess with

you so it's very hard to catch the uh

the

like the Hydra Gracie of bears you know

he's just gonna be sitting there doing

nothing so I don't know I don't know I

feel like

of course when you Corner him John will

say that if you put a bear and a line in

a cage the bear will win if it's like if

it's the if if they're forced to be to

the death but

I don't know oh let me ask you another

ridiculous thing before I ask you

serious questions

um so Joe Rogan thinks that a tie

is an effective way to attack somebody I

don't know if I I can't believe I

haven't in the time in Vegas I didn't

talk to you about this I think it's not

have you ever explored this it says so

as the best choker in the world have you

ever explored the use because like

Jiu-Jitsu has the jacket but the tie

to me is a pretty shitty uh way to choke

somebody like intuitively it thinks like

it's a good way but it can slide around

it's it feels like if it feels like

there's no uh there's no way to really

pin you would need to right so you use

it the way you use a belt yeah

essentially yeah but then I would guess

so yeah

I don't I don't think it's and I think

if it gives you it actually has the

reverse effect which it gives you the

the false sense of confidence that you

can use it

and instead it'll just distract you so

you think is a stronger way than the

call

or just a strong way yeah

yeah I don't see how

maybe just like in a street fight

scenario right like um but by the time

you grab the tie the guy goes punch your

nose yeah what what uh what George Saint

Pierre thinks is the best use of the

ties to actually like a um what do you

call that so basically to all balance

them

which is an interesting point to like um

yeah but you could use the jacket for

the same kind of thing

yeah I don't know I haven't really fully

tested it it's a okay for that

perspective of unbalancing of balancing

the person

it can be yeah because you you know you

have control of the person's neck the

color you know the jacket moves so for

the purpose of off balance in the person

I would agree with George

see the thing is that's the thing about

martial arts is you can say all kinds of

bullshit

but until you really test it in uh over

a period of years the competition you

won't really know I think like that's

where my gut says

um just how easily the time moves

my gut says the collar there is

something really powerful about the

jacket there's like the way it sits

I mean the fact that the arms trap it

from rotating

yeah like it's a weird piece of clothing

it's a really dangerous piece of

clothing that we put on ourselves yeah

like and it's kind of cool that we've

developed this whole martial arts system

that allows you to use that to to do a

lot of damage it's very interesting so

when we're saying something that you

develop over the years of practice over

and over again going back to deficience

of the amount of back by experience of

attacking people

they people always had a much higher

chance of escaping from the back then

from my mouth

so it's I feel if if I mount you get

both my hands on your neck you cannot

Escape if my hands are deep

it's over like that I don't remember

anyone escaping but I do remember if my

hands are deep on your collar or even

the real naked choke is still a hassle

like super clean you have some data on

this is there some aspect to you to how

your body is the characteristics of your

body then that fits a particular set of

techniques so if we just look at Jiu

Jitsu broadly

do you see most techniques being able to

work for most people like uh what you're

saying about Mount versus back control

is this is it possible for a different

body type to mount is not as effective

uh yeah of course

I'll say very big people make sure I'm

out

you don't have to give yourself as big

not big I mean fat oh

they should stay off them out why is

that that's a card Mobility it's like

it's I think that you know you don't see

any you know like those few ways like

160 kilo like you know in pounds I don't

know

270 pounds of a lot of fat

it's you you need a bit of Mobility

and that wouldn't you would play against

you so great and even back that great

back the same requires Mobility yeah

okay so even though it doesn't look like

you're moving very much when you're

doing Mama that requires Mobility yeah

because you have to reposition and wait

redistributionally uh adjusting your

your body all right the legend goes you

got very good by training mostly with

lower ranks uh what was your training

like in that environment

so when I first moved to London I was 20

years old

I opened my school there

and I had nobody to train with

I had one guy that was teaching with me

a black belt middleweight

it was good

and that's it brother was May humu to

the same they said he moved to England

the same time as I did but he was in

Birmingham so we did got together you

know maybe twice a week close you know

when we were prepared for something

if not then not very often as often as

we could but like did I say not that

often

and I had just

call about students there was no one

high level there was no one world

champion in any Bell to train

then you need to create a scenario that

simulates that can simulates

you know like a realistic

fighting so I think on that aspect you

know when people

said you know people ask

why they have such a basic game I think

that also influenced me sharpening up

all my skills when I move there because

you know when I'm when if you practice

with people

you know lower level than you you cannot

there's nothing to to learn

from them or you know you can learn

things and practice with them but

outside

very complex scenes on them it is not

the best so it's

I sharpen up all my skills so I you know

that when I really improved everything

that I already knew to a higher level

but how can you sharpen something if the

resistance is much lower level than a

purple belt okay makes it very hard for

you to skip side control doesn't have to

be a war Champion for black belt

it's you know if it's one is holding you

it can be very hard what about on the

attack how do you how do you become

literally by far the best person at the

cross truck from Mount by training with

purple belts

it's sometimes football belts defense

way better than black belts okay see a

lot of people listening to that would be

like that makes no sense haja Gracie how

does that make any sense because like a

lot of the black belts even world

champion they get to the black belt

they're really good enough what in what

they do let's see in the guard you know

on on top on the bottom position but the

difference or not like very very few

people high level have a very good

difference because they don't practice

yeah then that goes back to how you

train you know you can be very tough

very tough it will make you terrible

defense because you're not going to

practice your weakness so your weakness

still gonna be terrible you can have the

best God in the world impossible to pass

the day people pass to God you do

nothing

like it's you your guard is high the

highest level but your side control

defense or not your mouth defense or not

so some purple Bells they practice this

you know the the amount way more than

that black belt did so the naturally the

difference is better so they they get to

experience the defensive position much

much more and especially training with

you they get really good at defending

yeah and then over and over again you

attack them with the same thing over and

over again and didn't know what's coming

they will block they will develop a

defense over that yeah way better than

most other high-level blackboards so

both put yourself into really bad

positions with lower ranks and just keep

attacking the same way over and over and

over

yeah

and with that you were able to be at the

top of the world at the World

Championships yeah

I mean can you give some like what was

the preparation like to a world

championship with lower ranks I mean

um I did a lot of boxing a lot of

conditioning no but the conditioning is

but they won't seem to help me extremely

living in England in London was training

Judo at the Budokai in London

that helped me massively because he he

gave me the motivation to learn

something new because it you know that

by then at the Budokai you know the

stand-up was I'm sure today it is too

but by them was even higher than it is

today like there was some very high

level Judo guys training there and

I mean the first time I went there my

stand-up was terrible compared to theirs

I mean was was bad but compared to them

was terrible so I was getting through

like a child

and that motivated me to kept to keep

coming back and and get better

so that made my Jujitsu much stronger I

became my base got better my top game

improved

my pressure game improved

did uh this Neil Adams train uh Ray

Stevens when he I've never met

neurologist

is that he's the voice of Judo I don't

know if you watched the tournaments he's

uh incredible yeah Frank Stevens is a

you know Superman and silver medalists

in the Olympics he won European he won a

lot so he did some Judo training what's

your favorite throw like uh

if I would pick one so that made you

better at Jujitsu as well yeah yeah

okay and and back then like for the

first I'll say maybe three years maybe

four

I went to Brazil for like two months

before every major tournament yeah so I

said you know I moved away from the

school and I really focused I was

really well prepared with my jewelry and

everything else sharpen up my skus and

then went going to Brazil to train with

like really high level people

so that way I would manage it to compete

in the highest level what uh advice

would you give to let's start with a

complete beginner

um you know a bunch of people come up to

me they still want to start doing Jiu

Jitsu what advice would you

give them

try to absorb as much technique as you

can and try to be as relaxed as you can

don't

you know don't desperately try to

fight so hard

like learn

and move slow

move slow and relax that's the hardest

thing to do

the hardest you know you know what I

find with people it seems like it's hard

to even know that you're not relaxed

it's it's like the introspection

they don't even know what it feels like

to relax not even know they tense yeah

right they're trying to relax you look

how you see what what do you mean relax

I'm relaxed exactly exactly

you feel it and in terms of going slow

they're like yeah where I'm going slow

no you're you're not uh yeah there's

there's a there's a grace and elegance

of movement that you could probably pick

up from a lot of other disciplines like

for me I think that came from just

learning piano piano at a young age this

for um I think any Mobility thing to

learn how to move efficiently you have

to know how to relax it's just the fact

that you can like the body can be tense

so it could be relaxed just knowing that

fact now imagine you showed the stints

yeah play piano well no yeah everything

has to be real life I guess some of that

is mind too but just knowing that and

being self-aware and you but see like

even me

you know approaching a thing I'm not

I don't know anything about being a

beginner you're going to tense up no

matter and like it actually takes a

conscious effort to think to relax I

mean that's massively that's why

learning things as an adult is much

harder than as a child like it's very

hard and as an adult

it's like to get to the highest level

it's not possible

because you will never relax

for the way you should yeah relax in a

way that you become like water but then

you solidify in the right places

yeah

is there advice you can give to an adult

so like somebody that has a job like a

hobbyist like how to progress I mean

dude train this just need to train as

much as you can no you know five seven

days a week because you get gonna get

injured I mean two three times a week to

start is the best way to to you know to

to to to to initiate your judicial

journey and practice the same thing over

and over again when they don't work it's

just because you're not doing well not

because you know you have to learn

something else

do you see some value in just picking a

set of techniques that seem to seem to

draw your heart in like for example I'll

give you an example you'll get a yell at

but

uh I never learned the close guard

well

it just never connected with me you

could say it's body mechanics whatever

it doesn't matter the point is it's just

like my heart

never connected with it uh you know the

way I Justified it to myself is I felt

like when you're bad you're using the

close guard just like you could use the

half guard to stall so I was really

drawn to the butterfly guard as a

beginner because I thought that I have

or open guard in general uh there's I

have no options to stall so I'm going to

learn my thinking was let me do the

guard that enforces me to learn and then

I fell in love with the butterfly garden

open guard and so on and I never I never

really understood the close guard

and the other thinking was

do I really need to understand the

closed guard because it's always by

choice that I go there

so I can avoid not I mean you can avoid

anything you want

I mean you don't have to do anything

well in this life yeah it doesn't make

you complete yes that means you want to

be complete as a this is the question

how valuable is it to be complete

to get good

depends how good you want to be okay

let's go uh well there's several

questions there yeah okay like to be the

best in the world do you need to be

complete of course

the best in the world of course you have

to be complete otherwise you somebody's

gonna be

better than you but what about like two

so to understand to defend you have to

be also good at the offense and in every

single position

otherwise you you have a weakness and

someone can

capitalizing that weakness okay what

about to be like a hobbyist and you

don't have to but can you or this is so

bad I mean it's not bad I'm nothing is

bad I mean if as a hobbyist you start

late I mean this it doesn't matter how

far you're gonna get as long as you

enjoy it just train as much as you can

if it's twice a week twice a week it is

you you'll be limited how good you will

be training twice a week of course

then the guy that trains twice a day you

know this is the more train the better

you get but you have to select what you

train that's what I'm asking so I don't

know yes but like for how long like

there was some point in your life that

you might try something

so if you like it noted at some point on

your life that you might okay let me try

close guard you might not like it now

maybe in two three years from now well

still don't like it I kept trying it

listen because listen it's very

difficult to get any respect and you

just get it's hard to get to black belt

and Beyond in Jiu Jitsu at a respectable

place

and not have a good close guard close

guard is then don't do it it's not

necessary I'm being a rebel no no it's

not it's I'll say because it's not it's

not a position that

you want the pressure that if you don't

know you'll be in trouble you're not

going to be in trouble not to know the

close guard you're just gonna go

straight for open guard I mean that

that's not a problem the main limitation

is if you don't do a close guard a lot

that you don't quite

you don't get a full complete picture of

understanding how to attack close guard

when somebody puts you into a close

guard when you're on top so it's nice to

know both sides if it's just understand

yeah but you can have a pretty good

understanding of how to defend from the

top and not having any bottom I mean

some of it is also just like the length

of legs and just the the geometry of

your body

uh Nick I'm sure Marcelo Garcia is a

good close guard but I don't I've never

seen that that's exactly that's the

point

in theory Theory you can imagine it but

like for a hobbyist I think it's

interesting to think of that like

is it possible to

is it possible to focus on a small set

of techniques that help you to develop

of course still into a good job yeah of

course and still enjoying and still be

most people Hobbies

in the judicial World 99 let me put

their competes even the people that

compete one percent max and you have

high level competitors

have no clue how close God is okay thank

you for me no I think you would say that

most people don't have an Coast Guard is

such a

a such a difficult position to

understand For Me Maybe One Day we're

brainwash yeah good I I felt it's too

easy to stall

uh versus attack

that that was my main concern is like I

want to be forced in every way to

um to always be attacking to always be

moving to always be and it felt like if

I got really good I've seen it happen

with half guard too it's like when

people get really good at half guard it

just feels stully if you just look at

this at the matches and so on it's you

just slow things down to a thing that's

not

you don't get reps on learning you don't

get action in interesting ways so that

was my worry that I'll get old and fat

and just sit in close guard all day

holding on to the white belts trying to

kill me because it's also I mean that's

the other thing for hobbyists and for

everyone

is to like when you first start I think

you have to relax

in the face of the fact that you're just

getting your ass kicked non-stop yeah

that can also be really tough on the ego

I think the probably the right way to

see that is you're growing as a person

you see that clearly when they are like

in a bad position let's say side mount

or mount

like a beginner

he will never relax from those positions

the moment that you say go they like

trying to

push you out and explode there's no

relaxation and work on the Defenders

like no it's a out and go until I have

zero to give until I'm exhausted my arms

cannot move

it's kind of fun to watch actually

what's the role of drilling

did you do you like drilling I do not

like drilling but I'll tell you why

I think

fighting its mechanic right so it's it's

very important to drill a move until you

learn the mechanic of course it's

important if someone want to teach you

an arm lock

you want to practice that movement until

you learn the mechanic of it but the

guy's not resisting so it's easy to

apply it right

so you apply as many times as you have

to until you know the mechanic of the

moves until you can apply the mechanics

the moment that you know how to apply it

there's no more pointing drilling now

you have to practice now we have to

practice with resistance of course

you're not going to practice with the

guy fully resisting the guys better than

you because he's not going to give you a

chance to practice that move but you

have to practice with resistance so

where does drilling comes

on that is most of people you know they

they flow drill and everything nothing

whatever you do you condition in your

body to do something

is there you know you do you repeat the

same move over over and over again your

body's conditioning to apply that

movement or the technique

drilling is not realistic because the

other person is not resisting you know

the flow movement or whatever after you

go beyond when you already know that the

the mechanics

the drilling with no resistance is not

going to teach you anything because you

will never know if how to apply the

movement with resistance so it's

pointless to carry on drilling after you

learn the mechanics yeah see but you're

making it sound easy to learn the

mechanics I would argue

you can drill as many times I'm not

limiting how much you drill yes you

drill as much as long as you had to

I mean it doesn't matter how long the

benefit of drilling and I'm just playing

Devil's Advocate with you the benefit of

drilling is that you can more

efficiently get a higher number of reps

what are you gonna gain with those reps

understanding the mechanics of the

movement and what I would like to argue

is you don't necessarily need the

resistance to deeply understand the

mechanics of something now

there's some moves

like I bet you you could drill your way

to an incredible mount

like mile is a good example of that you

don't really need a result

I can imagine a world in which the

resisting opponent is not essential for

developing some of the very fine details

of the mechanics which one I don't know

any what you say amount yes

why what are you gonna achieve by resist

by drilling with no resistance after you

learn the mechanics what I'm trying to

tell you the learning the mechanics

isn't a thing where you get a

certificate and you're done you're going

to learn the fine details of the way you

redistribute your weight you're going to

learn how to move your I don't

understand like inside a dead body what

yeah like everything you do is a slow

process and timing

you have to understand moving okay it's

the guys resistant like he's not I'm not

gonna grab you and apply the movement I

need to grab you and feel when is the

right time to do

like that that it only comes when you

with movement if you're not fully

resistant

how would I know

you could infer through it it's like a

with no movement with no resistance

okay okay let's say you've been drilling

for a week yeah

five hours a day you should be an expert

with the mechanics

but now

how are you going to carry on with

really

no resistance no you have exactly yes

after that week drilling five times five

hours a day the the arm lock you still

have no clue how to apply the arm lock

against a resistant opponent no clue

zero yeah so you don't know the movement

you know the mechanic which is you know

it's like how long you have to drill and

how that doesn't matter it's the various

of the person you can do for a month

after that month is over you should

understand how the mechanic works you

still have no clue how to apply the

movement against a resistant opponent

you will never ever know how until you

apply with a fully resistant opponent

yeah that's the the only way to know

to to really learn the movement yes well

put but the question is can you have a

small percentage of time when you go

against the resisting opponent to get

the wisdom and the Insight of what it

takes to perform that movement and you

spend the large percentage of other time

just practicing the mechanics of it so

like uh

do you need to as you get better and

better at technique to basically drift

away completely from Drilling and more

into the the sparring I I'd like to I

just you're like really no I don't like

drilling I see I well yes I like

drilling I would say uh but I just see

it always bothered me in the Jiu Jitsu

Community how a few people really saw

the value of drawing I see no wrestling

especially in the in the Russian style

of wrestling like the value of drilling

I don't necessarily mean that it's like

a dead body or like a dummy or something

like that but just getting the Reps in

really focusing on the high amount of

reps

agreed in wrestling in Judo I agree that

drilling is very important initial drill

a thousand times each move yeah Judo is

a really big one for that too it is

because

is is is the movement the the timing you

know is the Precision of the movement

yeah it has to be perfectly because this

one movement then is you you learn about

the timing of the movement when you're

fighting but doing fighting you only

need to know the time because your body

movement is exactly the same when you

drill that's really well put yeah the

mechanics is much more important there

yeah but it's completely different for

jiu jitsu because let's say from Jujutsu

like the arm lock for example we use

that as an example let's see from the

closed card even my closed card before I

go for the arm lock I need to have set

of grips let's see I have your call in

your arm right and then you know when

you're drilling I'm gonna grab your arm

I'm gonna grab your collar and I'm going

to drill my body until I can apply the

unlock and finish yeah I can do that a

thousand times okay now we're fighting

we start with the grip the moment that I

initiate the amlock attack you will

defend the amlok will not work

so it's not the one movement that will

get me to attack the arm there's a

there's a combination of other things

that I need to do I need to feel about

your weight you know I need to get you

close to it there's so many other things

involved that I need to fill that only

comes with life life with the fully

resistant opponent

yeah so pretty quickly it has to be live

yeah

and then he comes how you practice how

you train

you're starting on that position and

just saying let's go and and the moment

that we disengage from that position we

go back that's when you really learn

because everything that you do wrong

you're gonna go back there and you're

gonna try again try again try again and

the repetition it will teach you have a

feeling of timing when to go if there's

a you know there's other combinations

which you always has

uh to go with it

uh by the way for the internet that's

currently yelling at me for arguing with

Hydra Gracie about drilling that that's

called you know uh Playing devil's

advocate to strengthen to explore ideas

I'm not actually arguing okay

I forgot to ask you

if you had to fight against the bear

line gorilla or anaconda to the death

um which one would you choose and

would you be able to actually to win

against any of them what beer a lion

a tiger a tiger Anaconda oh a gorilla

joke gorilla you can go gorilla

I'll probably choose the Anaconda

let's see

that I mean you're not allowed to run

away though so you're in a cage

do you have to kill

the Anaconda okay I said the other one

look I think I have no chance against

any other ones

I think I have a tiny little hero

against the Anaconda

I just waited out you don't you don't

think it's possible to be

I just um

it it feels like technique can do

something against these animals but they

have so much strength so much aggression

you know that the real naked choke

translating to Portuguese is killed the

lion

so ever since I was a kid I always

thought that made me forget behind a

lion the real naked choke which you know

in Portuguese it says matalion

so matalionis kill the lion so I always

thought that that's the only way to kill

a lion or to you know to fight him

against Allah you go behind and put the

real naked choke I think you put him to

sleep or the name Mata Leone yeah is

like kill the lime yeah someone came up

with the name why somebody must have

maybe someone should be going to fight

with their life talk too much there you

go I I honestly do you think also

actually yeah you you understand

controlling positions do you think like

a animal like a gorilla or a lion would

shake you off if you had back full you

locked in well you say the one that will

have the biggest chance of staying there

is the lion because it's the thinner

body yeah he's smaller than a tiger I'll

guess I think tigers are bigger yes so

so do you think they can shake you off

though I think I'll have a bigger chance

of staying against Alliance back than

any other animal still answering the

question do you think you have a chance

if I start on the back I start full

locked in full controls let's say it's a

small enough line you can actually have

a full oh I'll guess so I mean I I would

like to believe so okay

well like just like you said somebody

must have been able to do it

throughout your journey in Jiu Jitsu

have there been low points because there

have been points where you really

doubted yourself

no I never really doubted myself this

low points in defeats those are the low

points when I lost how did you deal with

the feast

I just went back to the gym next week

and say I need to get better

that every time I lost I'm like I need

to get better because I need to choke

them out I need to submit them

because you know we buy points

it's as a black belt I have very very

little lost

I would say

I mean I don't like to sound like a

crying baby but I'll say most most of

those laws was very very controversial

yeah it was not a dominant clear

performance this has about referees and

points and so on everything that was

since I was very young

I always fought against my opponent in

the referee like it's if there was ever

in my whole life since I was a kid

those ever a doubt

they you always go to my opponent always

always that was just something that I

had to do with my whole life what's the

motivation behind what led to the fact

that you win most your matches by

submission or indominance like are you

chasing because that's the only way to

prove you better

and I've never

I never fought to win tournaments that

was never my goal that was the

consequence of me trying to be the best

like I don't

care how many titles I have I care about

I need to beat all my opponents and not

not win because

win is not enough

I have to submit them that's the only

way to prove I'm the best

to submit them if I win by advantage or

a point that means I was better than

them that day that does not mean I'm

better than them

if I take her down

pass your guard Mountain submit you

there's zero questions with the best

like there's nothing you can say about

it if I foot sweep you you put your butt

on the floor again an advantage we're

carrying a fighting in a win means

nothing

not even means I'm better than you

and if that happened that would haunt

you if this for me is not enough I

wouldn't be happy

what advice would you give to Young

Folks

who look at you was able to accomplish

from a place where you're not very good

to becoming the best in the world at a

thing what advice would you give them

to uh have a journey like that to have a

journey where they could be successful

in their career and their life

to to such a high level

determination is the most important

thing

you need to know where you're going

together

so you need to have a go which whatever

that goal is like you need to set the

goal for yourself

so you know where you want to go

and to have the determination to get

there

and

be sure that you will fail many times

like you cannot let your failures

brings you down because

you you will fail many times everybody

does

so you said you didn't look to external

sources of

uh belief you just believed in yourself

is there something to that where um

you have to try to

be your own source of belief

Flame the fire within yourself was it

was that something difficult to do like

um my dad was just very natural for me

I said you know you can surround

yourself with great people

that is extremely important don't

surround yourself with failures

because they will they're not going to

push you to

you know they don't know what it is how

to get there I mean everybody knows but

it's

when you surround yourself with winners

you know you know what it took them to

get there used them as an example

yeah there's a certain kind of Aura to

people that just achieve great things

and being around them but it's still

it's hard to find people that especially

at that early stage any any area here

any error that's right yeah greatness

has a certain I think it's almost

humbling just to see okay any human like

at least that's the lesson I learned

almost any human can do

could be great I mean one I've used

Muhammad Ali as a great example look at

his belief

look at how much he believed himself

before he was Muhammad Ali

look at the you know determination he

had the way the confidence he had

fighting

even on his loss

they never changed him

not when you fought Foreman George

Foreman I not not one person in the

world thought he was going to win that

fight by himself

he never doubted himself everybody else

did he won over

All Odds Against

so it's I mean you do when you look at

people like that you can you don't have

to be a boxer to try to you know follow

his example

but see those are like epic giant

battles but I feel like you fight the

same kind of battle when you're young

and your parents tell you that you know

just with their whole energy that this

is silly don't be silly don't don't be

silly to chase it's harder it is harder

but as a kid it's harder to deal with

that because I mean to go against adult

special parents telling you otherwise

like them the amount of strength you

need is uh is gigantic I don't even know

how much strange you need because that

that was not my case

so I can understand what you have to go

through with the with the force of your

parents telling you you know otherwise

but it's how much you want

it will dictate how far you're going to

go where you're gonna go so it's you

know if you can break through that

you'll get nowhere it's that simple

and actually one of the really nice

things the internet does that I will

give advice to young people is that you

can find even even if your parents are

not a source of that your teachers your

community you can find people on the

internet who believe in you yeah it's

kind of cool it's kind of cool how the

internet opens the possibility of like a

community of like 10 11 year olds like

building shit I see this all the time

engineering

the in a I mean they're fueled by belief

they want to um

they want to be like

they want to create the next trillion

dollar company right there there's that

fire in their eyes and not for the money

obviously but to do something really

impactful and I think that fire is

extinguished Often by teachers and and

uh parents because I think the logic

that parents have

and teachers they look at a kid

and they don't on the surface level they

don't see greatness

right they just see kind of mediocrity

and so to them it's like no right the

world is more complicated than that in

order to get great you have to like like

they they somehow kind of always try to

be reasonable with you and then so doing

extinguish the flame it's weird I think

most people afraid so to even try

so you can call them cowards for not

trying because

you are a coward for not trying not

putting yourself a risk right so

I would say a big part of society

are cowards for never trying

never pursuing

what they really want is so it's there

you know a a weight a pressure everyone

most people a lot of people will say

around you

that because they were afraid to try

they they don't incentivize people to do

so because

they want everybody to be like them

because imagine if everybody around you

suddenly I'm not afraid and everyone is

trying and you look yourself in the

mirror and say I was too scared I've

never tried so you feel really bad about

yourself so it's easier to have people

around you that think exactly like you

then otherwise

so they reflect a lot on the kids

it's you know it's Society almost like

pressed them down to be like everybody

else to have a normal life normal job

it's you know don't take risk because

you can lose it all

I mean that's the worst thing you can

tell everybody take all the risks lose

it all a few times that's how you're

going to build things especially when

you're young yes you can recover much

exactly what's what's the what's the

point of not trying you should try and

you should you will lose everything

doesn't matter what's what's what what

emerits

to lose at everything it does matter it

will teach you

resilience you know try harder go after

you know

it's don't don't live a normal life

because otherwise you I mean what we're

here for yeah take big risks take a lot

of them fail and failure a thousand

times

until you succeed and then you're gonna

you'll be the most proud of yourself

like is this this then it'll be

Priceless it's that then we'll change

the world

it is true that most people

are not necessarily cowards but have

cowardice in them it's most people are

just afraid to try you know and a lot of

it comes from a place of love because

you know if you try and you fail you get

hurt

and it hurts I mean it's not it's not a

pleasant thing to fail I mean you feel

terrible to think you know when I lost

any time it was a good thing you know

when taking when I was getting beat up

at the gym over and over again was a

good thing when I was getting there and

getting smashed by all the good guys I

think I liked it well I hate it

but it's my resilience that you know

make me carry on until I succeed I think

I like to get tapped

one of the most competitive persons you

know I hate to lose bodies I accept I

mean I just I just need to get better

every single time I lost in the

championship I hate you I've never

screamed no one never saw me screaming

shouting that you know I got robbed you

know I should have won the referee yeah

but you know screwed me over I mean it's

okay

it happened shit happens

I need to get better because I don't

want to be in that position ever again

so when I fight if I'm better

if I tapped him there's no question I

don't need to wait for the referee to

decide that that was points or no points

if you know his interpretation that made

me better

because I I was even more determined to

be better in my mind I have to tap

everybody else winning is not enough

it's just objectively speaking

what you learn the most from is really

wanting to succeed and then failing

and doing that often that's the reality

from a parent from a teacher perspective

from anybody from people you love if

they really want to do something help

them do that thing if you think they're

going to fail good help them do that

faster so they fail faster they're going

to learn the only way to succeed is

failing there is no other way that's

what people has to understand without

failing there is no success

since you've gotten a little softer a

little more emotionally open What's the

role of Love In The Human Condition

Hydra Gracie probably the most important

thing

that's the basic of everything right

it's I mean love brings the best of us

it's if we had more love and compassion

from from the other person

I think would will be a more evolved

species the world would be much better

place than it is now did Fred's family

help you along the way

yeah a lot I always had a lot of love

and help from many people that's why I

succeeded I've never got here by myself

I had a lot of people who loved me

believed in me and helped me get to be

here today

well I'm glad they did I'm glad you're

here today I'm a huge fan it was an

honor to meet you as an honor to hang

out with you in Vegas to hang out with

you again today I just been a huge fan

for a long time uh my pleasure man thank

you for everything you're doing thank

you for this conversation it was awesome

thank you very much

thanks for listening to this

conversation with hajip Gracie to

support this podcast please check out

our sponsors in the description and now

let me leave you some words from Haji

Gracie himself

Jiu Jitsu is simple

you just have to do it right

thank you for listening and hope to see

you next time

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Roger Gracie: Greatest Jiu Jitsu Competitor of All Time | Lex Fridman Podcast #343

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