While We Were Separated, My Husband Fell for Someone Else

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So about four years ago, my husband and I were separated for about 8 months. But within the time that I had asked him for a divorce and signing the papers, it was about 6 weeks. He had developed feelings for someone else.

Well, I mean, it it sounds like you're way more his mother than his wife. What's going on? What's going on? This is John with the Dr. John Deloney Show coming to you live from Nashville. Except you're listening to this not live. So hopefully they edit out the parts where I'm not very good at this job. But for the last 20 plus years, I've been sitting with hurting people who are trying to figure out what's the next right move in my life. And that's what this show is. Real people going through tough times trying to figure out what's the next right move. And I don't know anybody right now. Nobody. Um, people who are struggling financially, people are struggling emotionally, struggling with their kids, struggling with politics, struggling with like their marriages. I don't know anybody who's not sitting in it trying to figure out what's the next right move. And so, if you want to be on this show, I would love to have you. john.comaskk and fill out the form and it will go to Kelly 1.0 and 2.0 and they'll build up build out the show and hopefully we'll have you on. love to talk to you.

Let's go out to Atlanta, Georgia, and talk to Melissa. Hey. Hey, Melissa. What's up? Hi, Dr. John. So, about four years ago, my husband and I were separated for about 8 months. Um, and during that time, uh, we got separated because I wasn't seeing any changed behaviors. And upon signing some papers to actually get a divorce, I had wanted to have one last question with him. um or one last conversation just to get more clarity and understanding and that actually led to us reconciling. But within the time that I had asked him for a divorce and signing the papers, it was about 6 weeks. He had developed feelings for someone else, a coworker, and I let him know that if we were going to move forward, um I wasn't comfortable with him being friends with this person. So, after some conversations, we decided to move forward with our marriage. And now that we've been married for almost 12 years, I just found out that he's still following on her on social media. And, you know, we'll chat with her every now and again. And so, I'm just feeling a little distrust. And I'm wondering how to move forward in my marriage when he doesn't see that as a problem.

Why did you choose to separate at the beginning? Uh well, we were first married for seven years and during that time he didn't have a full-time job ever and I really supported us through that while he was chasing his dreams and his career. And so for a little bit I was like, "Okay, I signed up for this for helping him kind of get to where he wants to be, but I didn't sign up for seven years of being the sole provider." And so there wasn't really any change behavior whenever I would ask him about that. And I decided, you know, we well, we decided, I guess, but really I prompted it. I said, "I think we need to separate so you can understand the full responsibility of being an adult, paying your own bills, making your own money, and understand what I'm going through." And so, we were still, you know, considering ourselves married. We still had date night and all that, but just not living in the same place.

What What was his job? What was he trying to to do? Uh, be a full-time musician. Okay. So, he was out there grinding it. Was he laying around all day? Was he trying to book shows? He was at home practicing in some shows every now and again. Okay.

H when you had the conversation with him about being friends with somebody, how'd that go? Well, he I mean it was basically more than a friendship. So the context there is he was really upset at me after I said I wanted to continue the marriage because he felt like he had already processed through the grief of that and then allowed himself to develop feelings for this coworker. And so that was definitely a tension that we had to navigate and he I mean he just didn't feel like it was a problem because there wasn't actually a relationship happening between them. So, I guess the the word that keeps coming to mind is clarity or something we say around the office all the time and I've said to people for years is clear is kind. And so, tell me if I'm wrong here, but there's a difference uh in saying um I'm signing up to follow your dreams. I'm increasingly frustrated that you're not making any money or you're not moving the family along in a way that I want to. So, back then, was there ever um a conversation about I know you have this dream. I know you want to do this. At the end of every month for us, we need you to bring in this many dollars or was it okay? Tell me about that.

So there were definitely conversations around that and you know I said this is just the lay of the land. This is what has happened thus far and I'm not upset at that because there is some amount of investment that needs to go into this but I need your help. This is the amount of money we need you to bring in. And I mean, he's really never had a full-time job at that point. And so it was difficult for him to understand what that meant and how he could do it. And so he would get small jobs every year and again and it wasn't wasn't really ever enough and it wasn't actually a behavior change. And so I I mean that was the reason why we got separated. And when we did, that actually did work. He went he got a job, found roommates, paid his own bills, and was responsible for all of that. So, because of that behavior change and learning about it, at the end of it, we decided to move forward.

And so, where are you now? Well, now I have so since then I have asked him, you know, recently finding out that he still is in contact with her. I expressed, you know, I feel really uncomfortable with this because she messaged you after you told her we were working on our marriage. Something like you deserve, you know, to be with someone who treats you better or something like that. Okay, that's super fair. Then that means yes, I she's not getting the message and that that deserves a total cut off. Not talking to you. End of communication. Totally get that. Mhm. And so how can I help you? Yeah. So, I'm just wondering what how I move forward with this or what's the conversation I can have with him to help him understand the severity of it.

Well, I mean, it it sounds like the the language you're using, it sounds like you're way more his mother than his wife. Mhm. And he's shown the ability to when he's on his own to go do his own thing. But there's something about y'all's dynamic that he immediately falls into. Yes, ma'am. Or ignoring you like teenage boys do with their moms. Right. And and what I'm wondering is one of two things. One is um he has maybe what I would call it an emotional call it romantic because that's kind of just silly. An emotional connection with somebody else that he doesn't have with you because you're his mom. and he likes the idea of a girlfriend. That's one idea. Another idea is he's just a complete and utter manchild liar. Um or the third thing is a weird combination of both, which is you married a musician with dreams of both of y'all hitting it big, right? He hits it big and then you get to go along for the ride and that creates a cool life for y'all. And then you would say, "Hey, we need this dollar amount. I need you to you have to go make $650 this month. Like through any number of combination of things, shows, whatever, but you got to make this much money because this is how much it takes to run this house. And maybe he would play one show and work some odd jobs and come up with 500 of that or 600 of that. But for you, that finish line kept moving. And it was like, "No, no. I don't mean get a get a part-time job to get that 650. I meant you need to get a real job." And you see what I'm saying? Like the bar just keeps moving and moving. I don't want you to be friends. Okay, I won't. I'm gonna go sit down with her and say, "I thought I was getting divorced. I was already starting to look over the fence and I'm not doing that anymore. This is over." And then she's like, "Cool." And reaches back out like, "Are you sure?" And you see, you get what I'm saying? And I'm just wondering if if he is in a position, I'm not saying what he's doing is right. In fact, I if he was on the phone right now, I would I would be all over him for still having contact with this person. M but I'm wondering if he is in a position where he can ever win with you or is the finish line keep moving and moving because you're just wholly unsatisfied with him as a guy that sounds like you don't respect him and it's hard to be romantically involved with somebody that you do not respect. Are you a safe place for him to come home to? I believe so. And he can he can just drop down and tell you what's going on in his heart and his mind and with his music and with the songs and his writing and all like you're a safe place for that. Yeah. Okay. Then have you have you sat down and said, "I feel less loved and less safe when you're talking to this person. That's why." Yes. And he said, "I don't really care how you feel or what you want." He said, "Well, she's just a friend. I don't know what you want me to do." Okay. Then what he's doing is he's saying, "I'm choosing her over you." It's just that simple. Exactly. He's choosing whatever friendship that is over my feelings. And it I don't really know what next steps are. I think you do know what the next steps are. They're just really challenging. Okay. Let's sit down and let's use eye statements. Okay. And maybe you spend some time really getting to the bottom of what you are experiencing and say the words when you enter into that conversation with you and then you and then you then he's going to play defense. I don't understand why you're being like this. I don't understand why that and I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm just saying there's a different there's a different path to get to where you really want to get to, which is why is my husband, the guy that I'm trying to build something with, why is he getting emotional connection, why is he getting his needs met with another woman? That makes me feel small and less than. Because then you start trying to defend yourself with I make all this money. I have a job in the business world. I'm letting you go play music for a living. I'm Right. And now we're into scorekeeping. Then we're getting into contempt. I am somehow better than you in this relationship and so why are you doing this? Well, I've definitely been there before and have worked through that. And so, yeah, I completely agree that there there's a lot of things that I need to do on my side to maybe communicate that better. And I certainly have expressed it in that way. It makes me feel uncomfortable. Yeah. And what what's the thing beneath? What's the thing beneath uncomfortable? What's the thing when I say that? What do I mean? Your body makes you feel uncomfortable. But feelings are simply the lights on a dashboard of your car. What is that discomfort? What is it signaling to your body? Yeah. That I'm not enough. There you go. That's what he needs to hear. I feel like not enough. And I've tried to get your love by making a bunch of money. I've tried to get your love by letting you go do this stuff that I still think's kind of boyish and childish, but go be you. And I don't feel like I'm enough. And then maybe asking a hard question. Do I make you feel like you're not enough? But that's the only way you're going to get to the true root of this issue. And if he says, "I just can't talk to you about this stuff and I like her company more than yours," then you got a guy who is invested in another woman, you're going to have to deal with that reality, which might put you back at that table of I don't want to be married to you. Man, often though when people get to the underneath the you make me feel uncomfortable, you're making me feel like this instead of saying I feel less than. That's almost always the place where the o only true healing can happen is there. Because my hope is he's a guy who doesn't want to make his wife feel less than. My hope is he's a guy who has figured out I can't talk and be fully myself in my own home. And so I'm doing something that's wrong and unethical and not integrous by reaching out to other women to get that. But that's the true nature here. And that's the conversation it feels like y'all are avoiding. Maybe you haven't avoided that and you've actually said those things in the past. And if so, then you've got a hard decision to make about you've got a husband who is emotionally invested in another woman and is having his needs met there. And that's emotional infidelity. And you're going to have to deal with that. And I can't tell you how to deal with that. Whether you leave that marriage, you make peace, and that that's going to be your call to make, but I always want people to take that one last step and go one layer deeper and say, "Here's what my body's trying to get my attention about. I feel small and less than in my own house. I'm trying to love you and I'm not getting through." And I also say this to you and everybody listen to me. It feels like when you come through a big monumental moment in a marriage like you guys did, you were at the table to sign divorce papers and you walked away and you said, "No, let's do this again." It feels like that will be the once and for all. That's the last time we'll ever come to a crossroads. And I guess what I want to pass along to everybody is marriage is full of multiple crossroads. And you can look at those one of two ways. You can look at crossroads that come up on multiple occasions as this is the last straw. One time it was about money. Now it's about I'm asking you to not follow somebody on Instagram. Now it's about you're yelling at our kids and I don't want you to yell. You can you can say strike three, you're out. I'm out of this thing. Or you can look at it this way. My wife said this once and I love it. She said because of the hard stuff we've been through, I know there is nothing that we can't overcome. So when we come to these new crossroads and these new crossroads, it's a moment to exhale because we've been through hard stuff before. for so we can get through hard stuff again. All that's going to matter though is if both of you can get to the real root and say, "Here's where I am on this one." And hear me say everybody, I think he's wrong. I think he's in the wrong, but there may be a context to his action, and that's what I want you to explore. Thanks for the call, sister. I really, really appreciate it. And if he ever wants to call, I'd love to talk to him, too. We come back, a woman wants to know how to help her husband open up about sex. All right, it's time for a quick word about delete me. Does anyone else feel like our digital footprints, the things we're doing online, are starting to feel more like digital trails leading bad guys and scammers right back to us. 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All right, let's go up to Canada to Edmonton and talk to Rachel. Hey Rachel, what's up? Hey, John. So, my husband and I have been married for almost 20 years. We both come from conservative backgrounds. Over the past few years, I've been doing a lot of inner work to heal from shame and harm caused by the church and purity culture. And as a result, I now feel a sense of freedom in this area and have been the one initiating conversations with my husband about sex. He will engage, but says the topic still makes him uncomfortable and has said he would honestly prefer not to talk about not to talk about at all. How can I help my husband be more comfortable discussing sex?

Wow. So, tell me like give me an example of a situation where he just shuts down. So, I shared with him like one of my fantasies and he just listened and didn't really respond at all. Um, I have asked him like, "What turns you on?" Like, for me, it's this thing or that thing. What gets you excited? And he's like, "When you're naked and doesn't say anything and and I'm like, okay." Oh, the simple male mind. All the all the all the guys in the booth are just nodding like, "Well, that's kind of it." So, but I'm like, there has to be more. Like, um, I guess there's there's two sides of this. Number one, tell me why there has to be more. What if what if his ultimate fantasy is you? Yeah. And that that may not be the case. And I I know there's deeper layers to this, but I just want to hold that potential. What if the source of his fantasy is you? I guess I never thought about it that way because in my head I'm like, "Oh, you know, I assumed you would like this thing or what about this or I have fantasies about doing this with you. Like, what about you?" And he'll respond like, "Nothing." And I'm like, "Okay, but when you try to enact some of your fantasies with him, does he go along with it? Is he all in?" No, he'll he'll be like, "Oh, that's crazy dirty." or just listen and not really say anything and then it just makes me feel kind of stupid for being so vulnerable and it wasn't well received. So that that I think is is the first thing I want to talk through. You've done all this work to heal from shame. But you moved from your parents approval to your church's approval. And now you've you've you've you've wiped that up. You haven't wiped it clean. That's not fair. you have unhooked yourself from those judgments, but you outsourced it to him, right? And now he's like, "Yeah, that's just that's kind of out there." And that that 9-year-old girl or that 17-year-old girl or that 22-y old girl goes all the way back again. Yet another person telling you that the way you feel about sex is somehow wrong or dirty or not enough. So tell me about the outsourcing of that. Could you clarify your question? Do you feel like you're gross for having a fantasy that you want to try out with your husband? I mean, I don't want to feel gross because I'm so happy that I don't feel shame anymore. Yeah. Except you do feel shame when he looks at you and doesn't doesn't answer you back. Yeah. I feel like kind of like he's judging me. There you go. Is he really judging you? Cuz if he is, then he's a jerk and we can we could take a different path here. Is he judging you or is he just saying, "Oh, I'm not into that fantasy, but good on you." I don't think he's judging. I think it is just kind of like, "Oh, that's a crazy fantasy of yours, but yeah, he's not into it." Okay. Does it feel lonely or isolating or you feel nuts? What do you feel? Yeah. I guess I just feel like I'm so excited and like all in in this area and I feel like he just wishes I would have stayed in this box. Ah, there you go. Is that a story you're telling yourself or has he told you that story? That's a story I'm telling myself. Okay. Is there anything in your mind or your more than your mind in your experience that says he doesn't love being with you? He doesn't like making love to you. doesn't like going along with some of your wild stuff. Not maybe not the extent fantasies, but like all right, I want to try this tonight. He's like, absolutely not. We're not doing that. We are going old school missionary. We're done in 30 seconds and we're like, or does he or does he go along with you? He sometimes will be flexible. Um, but he's he's a man of routine for sure. Okay. He just likes the good old classic. A man of routine. That's fantastic. good old classic. Uh, and just know that millions of men listening to this are just banging their dashboard in their car right now like why? Right. Um, and so, so have you gone, again, I feel like this is kind of a recurring theme in the show. Have you gone that layer deeper and said, "Hey, I've put some things on the table. I've tried to be vulnerable." And when you just kind of blow it off, I feel that deep sense of shame again. I feel like you don't like the person who I I don't feel like you like a sexualized wife that wants to be with you all the time and and be curious and be playful and be exploratory together. Yeah, I've said that. And we're just in different places right now, which is fine. I don't think anybody's desires match up 100% of the time. And so for me, I'm the one with the higher interest and he's not. And so, um, I think it's harder, too, for him to, um, want to be all in when he's just mentally not. Um, why why isn't he mentally in? Um, he's shared, you know, he's he feels nothing lately, like he doesn't feel excitement, he doesn't feel joy, he doesn't look forward to anything. And we've talked about, you know, him possibly seeking out therapy or seeing a doctor and things like that. And he isn't interested. And so, um, you know, just any excitement at all and never mind when it comes to the bedroom. He's just, um, he's a good, loving husband and he'll particip he'll participate. But is is that how much of this story is that that you're watching the life drain out of of the guy that you love? Yeah, I thought about that lately. He hasn't been, you know, when you meet, of course, like two decades ago, it's you're different. You're teenagers, you have no responsibilities, no kids. Um, but he was definitely more full of life and vibrant and fun and funny and um he hasn't been that way for a long time. Yeah. And is there some part of you, the person raised a people pleaser to please everybody at your church and please everybody at your house that is trying to run around and trying to solve that for him? or that's taking ownership. Yeah. Um it's hard for me not to um feel his mood. Like if he's depressed and I feel depressed and I'm like, "How can I fix it?" Or if he's, you know, angry, I feel like I turtle and I did something wrong. Like it's hard for me not to feel his emotions. Um but I know that I can't fix anything. That's up to him. That's his job. I know. But can I just tell you, you're a pretty amazing wife. Thank you. Um, this is when a lot of wives cash out. And I'm I'm so grateful to know there's a wife like you out there that loves her husband so much that she sees him dying in his own skin and is really trying to make an effort to reach out to him. That's awesome. Thank you. And when we're live such busy lives, y'all have kids, too. Mhm. Okay. You got kids running around. You just got chaos everywhere. A lot of times, especially in certain seasons, the only only thing we have left to get our pulse rate up is not on a screen somewhere, is sex. And I, man, I high five you for getting like going and going back and mining your depths and getting your healing done and for exhaling. Honestly, for his sake and for your marriage's sake, I I really think you need to go talk to somebody. And I know it can be hard when you have a stubborn husband who just is like, "I ain't doing that, or I'm too busy," or whatever. Um, but I think it's worth saying, "Hey, I'm not doing a great job of communicating with you and I'd love for you to go talk to somebody with me because I want to do a better job. It would mean a lot if you came with me." So, what if I have said that and he's already said he doesn't want to then I think the next layer is is I'm feeling unsafe and unloved in this house because that's the truth. Yeah. Do you ever say this? I need you. I want you. Yeah, I do. You didn't want him. I don't know how often I say that, but I can just tell you I was on the road for the last two months. I was touring all over the place and I got home and things are always a little bit just everyone's just trying to figure out their routines and I missed finals week for my son and I was just out and about and my wife just said a week ago sitting by each other on the front porch looking out over our property. She said, "I think I realized why I was just out of sorts." And I was like, "Why is that?" And she said, "I need you. I'm gonna tell you right now, dude. I got a great marriage, but that felt like a cup of cold water in a desert. Mhm. There's a lot of conversation about quote unquote mental load that women carry and it's exorbitant. It's crazy. It's a lot. It's It's astounding. The dentist appointments and the schools out and the lunches and all of it and the the bills. Like, there's so much. I get it. I think there's been a misrepresentation or a lack of understanding or not even conversation about the mental load that men carry. It's so heavy and it's way out into the future and it's not always real, but it's so heavy and most men I know are walking around their lives feeling like they're just a failure at everything. And so some a wife reaching out and and grabbing their husband's hand figuratively or literally saying, "I need you. this is a path you can love me and I'm asking you to come with me. I'm not telling you you need to. I'm asking you please come with me. That might be the shot. And all I can say is it worked with me. And I thank God every day of my life that my wife asked me to do that because it unlocked healing in me that I didn't know needed to be healed. And I think I'm an infinitely better husband and a better communicator and a better dad, better citizen because my wife said, "I need you." Thanks for the call, sister. I'm really, really grateful. And hey, I would be honored if he would call in. He probably won't, but man, I would love to talk to him. That would be awesome because I've been in that seat before. I would love for him to call. We come back, a woman asks how to raise concern for her husband's lack of friends. Sounds like we got a theme on this show. Be right back. Poncho is back as a supporter of this show and I'm stoked about it. If you have seen me speaking on stages across the country, if you watch this show, or if you recently ran into me when I was fishing with my son out at Gulf Shores in Alabama, or if you've even seen me mowing my acres out here in Nashville, I'm almost always wearing Poncho shirts inside and outside. Poncho makes the absolute best outdoor performance shirts for men, period. Whether they are sponsoring the show or not, you're going to almost always see me wearing poncho. And of course, I love their denims and their insanely soft flannels. 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All right, Charlotte, North Carolina. Let's talk to Morgan. Hey, Morgan. What's up? Hey, how are you? I'm all right. How about you? Doing good. Excited to um cannonball into this question as I've heard you say. Let's do it. Cannonball top rope. Let's do it. Okay. So, how do I kindly encourage my massively introverted husband to make friends? Because I am his only best friend. And if I if something happened to me, he would have his family who are lovely people. Um, but he has no like really close male friendships. he did in college, but those have dissipated. Um, they still like group text occasionally, but I just am I making a mountain out of a molehill? Antill? No, molehill. And um is is it how do I go about this because I just I'm lost.

No, I mean there's there's multiple things here, but no, your instincts are right. Men are lonelying themselves to death in record numbers, right? Yeah, they are Netflixing themselves to death. They are gambling themselves to death. They are lonelying themselves. They're pornography themselves to death. They're they're just slowly dying. Um, most of that I think comes from there's no more shared purpose. There is zero shared purpose anymore. It doesn't exist. And um I think there's not a there's not a like that's why there's those long text threads. That was the last like there's reasons why 40-year-old men get together and still talk about that old football game that one time cuz that was the last time most men were a part of something bigger than themselves. Yeah. And he like I'm flying out to see my best friend tomorrow and I'm coming back Sunday and I know while I'm at work, I know exactly what he's going to do. He's going to or while I'm visiting her, he's going to go to work. He's going to come home, take care of our dogs, cook himself dinner, watch him show or read a book, and go to bed. Like I could I would bet my left arm that that is what he's going to do. And it's just it's not great. And it makes me sad. and I don't know what to do about it.

Okay, but but let's not let's not judge him for the life that he's choosing. Get to the deeper pathology or the the deeper struggle here to use a not nerdy word. Are you are you being asked to carry a disproportion or let me ask it this way, have you become his trash dump? You're the only person he talks to about politics, about religion, about work, about money, about people, and you just get dumped on every day. I would describe it not as getting dumped on. I mean, but yes, I'm pretty much his everything. I'm his best friend and we get like he is a lovely human. Like we get along great. We have a ton of fun together. And he does have a coworker who he like a previous co-orker, I'm sorry, who he hangs out with like once every 3 to 6 months. And she's great. Like they get along great. Um, but like that's kind of the extent of his socialization. And he had like some really good friends in college, but is he happy? Is he happy? Is he happy or are are you seeing something in him that you're worried about? So, we check in and I ask like, "Hey, are you happy?" I haven't more normally it's more in a romantic sense. Um, but yes, like he says he's happy. The last check-in we had um was like a couple weeks ago and it was great. Like he said, "Hey, I am happy and it was um a little context. I was having a panic attack. He sat through it with me and part of the panic attack was something that he said one way that I heard a totally different way." What was that? And what he thought um basically so we it was a Saturday and um I we we just got back from the grocery store and he was about to go outside to mow the lawn and we'd eat and do all that fun man stuff. Um and he we were going to go see a movie and I basically was just like I don't think we have time. And so what he said was it's okay. I'm used to it. And what he that he generally meant that like it's okay like it's not a big deal. I heard it as I am unhappy we get to we don't get to go you know do things like what I want and that's not what he meant. That's how I heard it from my own issues and trauma and blah blah blah. So um I had a p panic attack. So that was kind of like the needle that um you know or the straw that broke the camel's back. And uh he saw me had it. He sat through it with him before with me and held my hand and you know been great. Um and so he went outside after I finished. And then he came back in was like, "Hey, I just want you to know I'm really sorry I said like it came out that way. I love you and I'm happy." And that's the that's the context that he said. So, he just seems completely unbothered that he doesn't have any friends. And so, I don't know if I'm making a big deal, but I know if he didn't have me, he would not have any close relationships. And it kind of But hold on, hold on, hold on. It bothers me. I think two things. One, he may be such a good man in his mind that he always wants to make sure he's available for you in case something happens. H I had never thought of that. He may love you so much that he How dare he go waste time drinking beers with some buddies watching the fights? Cuz if my wife has a panic attack, if my wife isn't okay, I'm going to be here. That's true. But I I know. Hold on. Hold on. And it may be that you are making up a story in your mind that if it weren't for you, he would have nothing. A harder reality is if you were to go away, he might have lots of fun and friends. [Laughter] You know why? Hold on. Hold on. You know why? Cuz he did before. Yeah. Just sit in it. Hold on. Just sit in it. He did before. And so the reality is he just might. And you have to ask yourself, whoa, if he was going out to hang out with friends once a weekend and once or twice, would I be okay with that? Or if he texted me and said, "Hey, I'm running 30 minutes late." And I spun off into a panic attack again because I'm so close to the edge most of the time. Would I be okay if he wasn't there to sit with me and ride it out? Well, and and he I mean, yes, I've had them when I'm completely alone. Um, and I'm medicated. Like, I mean, it doesn't happen like every day or anything. Um, but I don't know if that's an issue or not. Um, because he had, what I was trying to get to earlier was so he had a really good group of friends in college. Um, and he was even supposed to go on a boys trip with them last November, but he cancelled not because of me. They they like to party and he's just past that in his life. Sure. And they were just talking about some things that made him uncomfortable and so he just bailed and made up an excuse. And so, but I encouraged him. I was like, "You should totally go have a great time. I'll take care of the dogs. Don't worry about anything." And so those are the only other people that he has um like even remote friendships with and they group text occasionally, but that's it. And so I don't really know what to do.

So here here's a path forward. One is I would sit down with him and say, "Hey, I want us to make more friends around town. Okay. And you're about to get on a plane and fly away to your friends. I want you to start being vocal about I want us to to have friends locally here. And my wife and I I left to my own devices. I would end up with my old text threads and I'd hang out with nobody ever. Ever. Mhm. And I would go hunting in the fall with people. But here's what happens when you go hunting. Nobody says anything. You're allowed to talk. Mhm. And we'd go sit in the woods next to each other and say no words. And then I'd go and be like, "All right, way to go." And then I'd help somebody drag a deer out of the woods. And then I'd be like, "Man, I hung out with my friends." Yeah. You know what I mean? And so left to my own devices. I could get there really quickly. And here's the here's I've dug into why. Here's why. I have no shared experiences with somebody. And in a man's world, leading with emotions or with vulnerability is a way to get yourself excommunicated from the party. Okay? And so this sounds so ridiculous, but when I say, "Hey, we're having a couple over for dinner." And my wife's like, "Awesome. Who is it?" And I tell them, she's like, "Great. That's cool." Now I've got a shared purpose. That's why guys go stand around a grill because they can pretend that they're doing a thing. Yeah. Because in their normal day, if I just sit on a couch and be like, "Hey, bro, how's your heart?" It'll be like, "All right, I'm not coming back here." But when we grill together and we're shouldertoshoulder and I can say, "Man, I've been worried about my finances lately." He can go without making eye contact. Yeah, I know, man. And hey, can you help me build a fence? Can you help me move a thing? Andrew, who's over here running the the screens right now, I asked him, "Can I hire you for a Saturday to teach me how to weld and teach my son how to weld? I want my son to learn how to do it more than me." I think in the world he's inheriting, he's going to have to learn how to weld. So, I want to know how to do it. And he knows how to do it. Yeah. But I didn't ask Andrew to come over to my house and share his feelings with me. M but I promise you through welding spending a day welding together he'll learn a lot about my feelings and how insecure I am. You get what I'm saying? And so setting up things that we can technically do together or that there are shared experiences or in our house we had to put one on the calendar. We will have one couple. We'll have one group of people to our house once per week. Period. That's just a rule we made in the house. And we don't always stick to it, but most of the time we have somebody over at the house. Yeah. And it's a wacky cascade of characters that comes over to our house. And I love it. I love it for us. I love it for our kids. I love it for my f like all of it. And I've made some great friends out of it. So more of like a hey, let's do this together type of thing. I think absolutely. So that's my thought there, Morgan. Um, I think you have to wrestle with he doesn't see seem that there's a problem. And so feeling the problem in your chest and then saying, "You need to go do this to fix my my angst." That's a recipe for things not getting fixed. Um, or for him going to sit at a bar with a couple of dudes and being like, "Hey, hey, have you tried the hot hot wings?" No. Cool. All right, man. See you later. Like big gulps, huh? like it's it's just not a recipe for that. Shared experiences. Now we're talking. Now we're talking. Hey, and we come back. I have a very important um segment that I've never done before. So hang with me. It's Cozy Earth time. 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All right, we're back. Um, so a few weeks ago I was on tour and I had an opportunity to meet with a woman who's become a great friend of mine over the last 5 years, and she is an executive at BetterHelp, the the counseling service that I recommend online that's available 24/7. Like it's not 24/7, but it's available, um, online or on your phone. And we had a great conversation backstage, and she sent me a study. And I just want to just call out, I'm always skeptical of studies, especially that are done by companies, right? Because I always think, man, there's going to be a bias there. Um, but I read through it, and I think this study's exactly what I'm reading in the, um, regular literature, and it's especially what I'm experiencing with people over and over and over again.

And so the name of the study, they named it, is "The State of Stigma." And here's some of the data points in the study. 76% of people, that's 7 and a half out of 10 people, believe that talking to a therapist is actually helpful. Six out of 10 people, though, believe that society discourages people from actually talking to somebody. And if you dump men into that conversation, as some of the calls on this show, I think it's even higher. There's this idea that if I go talk to a counselor, if I go talk to a therapist, I have failed in my ability to fix myself. We don't think that about air conditioning. We don't think that about our roof. We don't think that about a crack in our driveway. But for some reason, we think if I have to go talk to somebody, I have failed me. Or I can just put the answers into Chat GPT as though the answer is what I'm looking for.

Here's another one. Gen Z is highly engaged in mental health content. They scroll these things. They listen to my show and other shows like it. They are scrolling TikTok, but they're very distrustful of therapy, saying that a therapist would never understand me. Here's another one. Those spending four plus hours on social media are more likely to feel judged and skeptical of therapy. By the way, if you pull that data further, people spending four plus hours on social media feel like everyone in every circle is judging them. That's why there is caustic literature about girls, especially teenage girls, and being on social media a lot. And if you add different types of behaviors, like violent behaviors or checking out completely and just playing video games 19 hours a day, boys are experiencing it, too. It just looks different. The the pathology is expressed in different ways.

Here's another one. Parents of young kids strongly believe in therapy, but face high stigma and high cost and high time barriers. I don't have time to leave work, drive for 45 minutes in traffic, go talk to a therapist for an hour, and then drive 45 minutes back. If I'm working hourly, I just burn three hours of wage. Not to mention how much it costs to go see the therapist.

So, here's the deal. There is stigma when it comes to getting help. And I am so, one of the highest honors I've ever been able to experience in my life is the millions of people that listen in to this show or watch this show. It's amazing. And I get your letters and I get your DMs and I get your emails and I get so much great feedback on when I'm on the road and thousands of people come out to a live event. Just the lines and I'm signing books and man, it means the world to me that you're picking up ideas and learning things. It's amazing. And you're applying them in your homes with your kids, with your spouses, with your boyfriends and girlfriends, with your workplace. That's so great. It's why I do this show. And there's there's a percentage of people, a large percentage of people that like myself need to go sit down and exhale in front of somebody and be seen and be heard for the first time.

So, I just want to say this. Um, I want to thank my buddy at BetterHelp and I want to thank the BetterHelp people that like when there's lines of like, "Yeah, you can come see this therapist. There's a six-month waiting list." Or, "Yes, you can come see this person, but you got to pay $200 'cause they only take cash and they don't, I don't have $200, right?" I want to say this out loud. If you're struggling with something, please go talk to somebody. Call one of your buddies. I promise you one of your buddies is going through something similar. I promise you, before you blow your marriage up, before you text that man or that woman back, before you go spend money that you don't have, talk to somebody. Talk to a friend. If you're a person of faith and you have a safe religious community, not that someone's going to beat you up for having thoughts or fears or anxieties, go talk to somebody at your local church. If you can go see a counselor or a therapist in your local community, please go do that. I do that regularly. And if cost is an issue, if time is an issue, if convenience is an issue, if just the anonymity is an issue, please reach out to my friends at BetterHelp. We have to as a community, as a society, we have to go through that stigma. We've got the world needs a whole bunch of regulated adults because things are getting off the tracks. And look around at what you've tried to do to solve your anxiety, to solve your depression, to solve your your yelling at your kids, to solve your frustration. Every time your spouse says something, you just go into a hole or you want to come out swinging. What we're doing isn't working. And it's strange that all the literature points back to other people are the solution for so much of these issues. So please jump right through that stigma. I know it's real. I have felt it myself. I remember the first time I took anxiety meds and I sat at my kitchen table and I wept. I felt like such a loser and a failure. I've been there. I've been there. I've been there. Walk through the stigma and reach out and talk to somebody. And I'm telling you right now, men, I'm especially talking to you. You, I don't care how many tattoos you have. I don't care how big your truck is. I don't care how much you think you're failing your wife or your kids. Call somebody. I love you guys. Bye.

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