Transcription
In looking at powerful people, the person who talks less always gives off a greater aura of power than the people that are yabbering all the time that are talking that can't control their tongue. And the idea is if you can't control your mouth, if you just keep talking and talking, it gives an aura to other people that you can't control anything else. You have no self-control. And that is very unpowerful aura. And obvious the more you talk the more you are prone to say something kind of stupid and irrational that you're going to regret.
And so powerful people know to command an audience. They sit there. They let other people talk and argue and then occasionally they utter something that's maybe a little bit ambiguous and goes, "Whoa, whoa, that's very interesting. Robert said that. What does that mean? You look powerful, right? You give off an air of mystery. You give off an air of control." And so a lot of people have a hard time with this because they think, "Wow, shouldn't I just be able to say whatever I want and just talk?" Well, no, you don't. Not in the social world. Not in the work world. It's going to get you in trouble. Learn to control what you talk and learn that there are moments that saying less is actually much more powerful than just yammering on and on.
I was um through my years of business, running businesses and stuff, I came up with this idea, which I've shared with a few people called your contribution score. And much like we have a credit score where if we, you know, we're reckless with our finances, we our credit score gets lowered. Um, I think the same applies for the contributions we make in group settings, but just generally the contributions we make. And I came to learn this over time because in one of my offices many years ago in a different company, there was this one individual who in the meeting rooms would when people were brainstorming before they'd thought of what they were going to say, they they'd interject and say, "What about um if we do a we could do like a popup with maybe we'll do like t you they were thinking out loud and what was what I would observe as a CEO is the minute they spoke. It was almost like people rolled rolled their eyes and tried to cut them off because they developed this contribution score which says when exerson contributes it's always ill-formed um not productive and takes too long.
But then there's this other guy who I remember from my Manchester office who when he hardly spoke and every time he spoke it wasn't important. So the minute he starts speaking it's like the room shifts towards him like like with baited breath. So there's an art of protecting one's contribution score.
Yeah. I remember uh 50 I would go to meetings with him and 50ent. Yeah. And he would hardly say anything and people would be trembling. My god, he's not talking. He's not saying he's interested in my ideas. He'd just sit there with this kind of ry smile on his face and then when he'd say something, oh they would let out of breath. Oh, he's saying something. It'd be very short and curt. But he completely commanded the room because he just sat there as if he wasn't really happy with what people were doing and it made them compete to make him happy.
Interesting. Really interesting. He he's a master of the 48 laws of power.
The other law that I was thinking a lot about if we're jumping back to the the laws of power is let others do the work but take the credit. your face when I said that.
Well, you know, some of the 48 laws is irony and you know, people have to be able to understand and read what's ironic. So, um, like I have a chapter in there, play on people's need to believe to create a cult-like following. And I'm not really saying go out and create a cult. I'm showing you why you might be in a cult right now because this is how cults operate. Okay? So when I worked in Hollywood, I worked at one point for a film director and we had this process where we would sit in a room and we would talk about the the story. We would discuss the dialogue stuff and I would give all of this dialogue and ideas in there and he'd be writing it down. And I'm not saying half the screenplay, but at least a third or a fourth were like my ideas, my contribution, my dialogue. I never got a single credit for any of it. It was always his name that was on there. People go, "Wow, Sam, that was so funny. That was really brilliant. I love that line." Was my line. Okay. So, I learned this is the law of the jungle. When you're working in particularly in entertainment, in media, people take your work and they put their name on it. So, like when you're watching a television show with some uh news broadcast or whatever or an interviewer, their jokes aren't their own. They didn't write those jokes. They had a team of people writing it. All those great facts that are coming up, a team of researchers are putting there. You never hear their names. You never know who they are. They took their work and they put their name on it. That's the law of the jungle. And the law of the jungle is don't get upset about it. It's part of the game. You know, I got upset when that happened. I didn't say anything. I didn't do anything. But I got resentful. Nobody's recognizing my work. Whine, whine, whine, whine, whine. The adult, if I had been smarter, was that's just how it is, Robert. Just calm down. At some point, people will see your screenplays or your books or whatever and and you'll be fine. But just I'm trying to show you this is how the world operates. And don't be so naive. And don't think it's not like that. And if you had kicked up a fuss, you might have accidentally outshone the master.
Oh, or been fired. It's interesting because there is an element of this where it can where like trying to take the credit can really also lead you to being fired because I'll never I remember back in previous again a previous company that I'd started had a big team about 200 people in Manchester and there was this one kid in his early 20s who would always sulk if in our like public company channel someone just innocently forgot to include his name in credit when credit was being handed out and it would happen maybe once every 6 months you just like forgot that he had contributed to the project and that happens in all businesses people don't tag you sometimes and I remember hearing that he was outside on the steps bitching that's the best way I can describe it just like complaining to other younger team members that he hadn't been included in that message and it developed this horrible rel um reputation for him as someone that was always complaining and always trying to take credit cuz it's ugly to be seen as trying to take credit.
Well, so the if you read the law carefully, it's really about how powerful people use this. So if you're an underling and you do the work, don't you don't want to take credit for because it's going to get you in trouble, right? But powerful people have used for centuries the labor of other people and put their name on it to make themselves look powerful and to make them seem like they've got endless energy. Okay. So, you you have to apply that law with intelligence. If you're an underling and you're doing some project, it's a group project, don't go out there and take credit for it cuz people are just going to laugh at you and you're going to make you're going to make a terrible fool of yourself. So, every law has a context, you know, but that's that's powerful people use that law. And if you don't think that's how it operates, I'm sorry, but you're you're in for a world of pain.
I think there's an overarching thing here which which can be discovered in your other book, The Laws of Human Nature, about mastering your emotional self.
Yeah. Because none of these things are going to be possible if you don't have mastery over your emotions. I'm not going to be able to refrain from snatching credit. I'm not going to be able to not outshine my master if I don't have this sort of foundation of emotional control. Is that true? Is emotional control really where this all begins?
Yes, it it is self-control. Um, of course you can take it too far where you have no emotions and you're just a cold fish out there. You know, it's good. Emotions are important. You're not going to write a book. You're not going to start a business unless you're excited, unless you have that emotional energy. So, I'm not talking about stifling your emotions. That would be incredibly counterproductive and unpowerful. But there are emotions that are going to get you in trouble, particularly as a social animal. So, it's not like you stifle your emotions. You learn how to channel and control them. And you learn that certain behaviors are going to be read as unpowerful, as hysterical, as somebody who can't get things done, as ineffective, incompetent. So, as an actor, you learn to sort of present the right front, the right facade. And that requires a degree of emotional control. Yes, for sure. It's very important. And it's not easy because when you're young particularly, you're very em you're wired to to be emotional and you're going to learn this the hard way, which is how I learned it. I'm trying to teach you some lessons so maybe you won't make as many mistakes. But it's a hard thing. You learn and you learn it by the mistakes you make by saying something foolish that cost you your job. By outshine the master that cost you your job.
You learn it from the mistakes you make. Is there any practices that you know of that would enable me to increase my self-awareness? Because you know I we're all going through experiences in life, but it seems that some people are learning from those experiences and becoming more wise and more effective and then other people are kind of repeating the cycle over and over again. And I think I asked this in particular because you're a writer so you spend a ton of time thinking thinking about what's happened to you, your jobs, experiences, your feelings. If if you do a a foolish mistake, there are two ways to go. And the common route is that they they screwed me over. It's their fault. You know, right? Or I made that mistake, but you know, if circumstances been better, if I had more money, if this person supported me, it would have all would have gone well. That's what we naturally do. And that's the kind of person that never learns from life. So your first instinct must always be and not your first instinct. I correct myself. Your second instinct because your first instinct is always going to be that. There's a great book, I can't remember what the writer's name was. Mistakes Were Made But Not by Me. I recommend that book highly. It came out about 10 years ago. I think it's Elliot Arensson.
Oh yeah. I know him. Uh very good book. Anyway, your first instinct always will be it was a mistake, but I it wasn't mine. I'm not to blame. All right, everybody does it. I do it. Your second instinct is to sit back and go, whoa, wait a minute. That's not right. I'm fooling myself. Actually, I played a role in that in in what happened there. And what is that role that I played? What could I have done differently? Maybe it's very subtle. Maybe it was something in my body language that turned people off that made them not like me. Or maybe it was something I said or I did that could have changed the circumstances. What is it that I did? Then you can learn from the experience. And if only 10% of it is your responsibility at least see it as 30% so that you can learn from it and exaggerate your role in the mistake because then you can learn from it. you can understand that you can correct these mistakes. Right? So, initially you're going to always blame the other person. Then you're going to step back and you're going to go through this little dance. You're going to go, "No, I think I I I've definitely played a part in what went wrong here." Things go wrong and we leap to blame. And once we leap to blame, we often leap to revenge.
Yeah. We want to take revenge. We want to write the wrong that's happened to us. We want to correct the injustice. And you talk about this as part of human nature, but also give us some advice. I think it was in it was actually in the law of power book about um I think it was law 36. When we feel like we've been wronged, Robert, when we feel like there's been an injustice, what is the best course of action?
It depends on on on the wrong and in the injustice.
So, let me give you an example. Someone at work said I heard they said something to my boss and it's cost me my promotion and they're talking about me behind my back and and it's annoying me.
Well, there are several um avenues that you can go. Everything depends on circumstances. So, if you're going to be a strategist in life is which is what I recommend, you have to look at the particular parameters and not just go there's one answer. There's several possibilities here. So, number one, maybe you're in an awful job with awful office politics. I have a a thing that I get talked about in one of my recent talks um of you can scale a culture of a group on a scale of 0 to 100. 100 is what I call a reality group where people are only interested in getting the job done and everything is on results. Zero is where everything is political and everything is personal and everything is about who knows who and how you brownnose your way with the boss. Okay? So if you're at a company that's at that 20% level, then get your ass out of there. Okay? You you have a colleague like that, but there probably other colleagues like that and that person is probably always causing problems. Do you need to be at this job is the main thing you have to first ask yourself. And if it you do need it, you need the job and it's only this one person. Then you have to go through a few steps. Number one, is it worth taking personally? What if I not take the high route because I hate that that phrase, but what if I say it's not really worth it for me to get upset. It's better off in the long run to just act like um you know it didn't happen and to end up getting the promotion on my own in a different way and proving myself as success is the best revenge you know and how can I get there kind of thing. Ignoring him or her and what they did and only focusing on what you can do to get back to get the promotion that you deserve. The third possibility is sticking it to this other person, which is always something that I think is is something you might have to consider doing, right? Which is playing the game back at them. So, when you're dealing with people who are unethical, like a Putin kind of type, where they're willing to do anything to get power and you're not, it's asymmetrical warfare. They have more options than you do. Okay? This person that did that to you, they're going to do anything for power and it puts you at a constant disadvantage. What do you do? You have to do what they have in warfare called a deterrent strategy. You have to show this person that you're not somebody you can mess with. That you're going to do something to hurt them, but it's controlled and it's a one-time thing. You're going to damage their reputation. you're gonna spread some nasty rumor about them, but it's you don't have to feel like you're lowering yourself. It's just I'm doing it one time to show them that from now on you better not mess with me because damn it, I've got a gun in my back pocket and I can use it. You can't be you can't just lay roll over because they're going to keep doing it to you time and again. So, you've got three options and you've got to choose what's the best one. If you hate your job and you can't get around this person, quit. If you don't feel comfortable going the low road and if you think it's a better strategy in the long term for you and your soul and your safety to simply focus on your job and and get revenge that way. That's probably the best solution of all. But sometimes you need to have a shot across their bow to say, "Look, you can't attack me because if you do, there going to be consequences to pay."
Because these types of people, they they prey on those who seem weakest, right? Predators love prey. Yeah, but if you do the option number two and you show that you don't really that they didn't affect you and you kind of act like it didn't matter sort of thing, but you still work hard and you're still doing your job. They might they're going to wonder like, hm, that's pretty impressive. That's interesting. This person has self-control. And they're maybe going to be afraid of you in that sense by the fact by the composure that you show them. So everything depends on who you are, your nature and the nature of this this uh Machavelian character that you're facing, you know, but um be alive to the moment in the circumstances and play for the long game. So sometimes the long game means showing that you can mean action because then they're going to leave you alone for the next couple of years.
When we zoom out on what's going on in the world, um, a lot has changed. A lot has changed. One of the things that's changed is our society as I think I've heard you say is less united by some of these great myths of religion and you know I've heard you say talk about democracy and all these kinds of things and as a result people no longer believe in the same ideas because every form of authority is now under question and you're someone who studies history. You're someone that understands the cycles of history. What cycle of history are we in at this moment in time and how does one navigate it?
Well, um you have to take a big picture um especially if if you're someone like me who studies history a lot. So there are always these moments in history of cycles of chaos where and it could be caused in the past by a plague by some terrible war that goes on like the hundred years war in Europe where um people feel genuinely powerless and helpless and there's a crisis of meaning in the world and I could point to specific moments in the ancient ient world in Asia, in Europe, but it goes on and on. It's a cycle that happens. And when people feel powerless and helpless and there's all this chaos going around them, then they tend to be attracted to authoritarian figures, to easy solutions. They get much more irrational. They're much more likely to fall for cults and for belief systems that offer simple solutions and easy one-s sentence answers like make America great again kind of thing, you know? Wow, that sounds that's simple. That's easy. Yeah, that's the we'll vote for that, right? So, in moments of chaos and helplessness, people are going to grab for something that anchors them, that gives them a sense of per meaning, right? But it's often something very, very dangerous. So, we're in a moment like that right now, I think, around the world. It's not just the United States. Believe it or not, things can happen under the skin and and and are subtle like climate change. There are a lot of people who don't believe in climate change, but it's affecting everyone. It's making everyone a bit neurotic. This sense that we can't control our climate, right? That these disasters are going to keep happening and happening. That's a major sense of helplessness. The global economy where now your business is at the mercy of something that's going on in Indonesia or Japan or China is a tremendous sense of helplessness and a lack of control and your political figures don't seem to be responding to you in any way like their actions, their talk doesn't lead to the kind of results that you want. So you're very prone to following what demagogues say who offer you like easy solutions. Okay. So if you're living in a time like that and the it's more dangerous now than in the past because of social media and because of memes and because of the viral effects that are sweeping through humanity right they didn't have that during the bubanic plague during the hundred years war during the French and industrial revolution which was another period of incredible dramatic change in Europe at the turn of the 19th century right So they didn't have that which is adds to the brew and makes it much more dangerous. So having a longer view is to say well you know this is a moment a moment of chaos and I'm going to be in control of what I think and what I believe. So I'm going to have a degree of distrust of what people are telling me. I'm not going to get so emotional when people start saying this is what's evil. This is what's wrong with the world. And to be very very very wary of people with simple solutions who say if we just do this one thing everything will be great. If we just add tariffs, if we just get rid of all the immigrants, America will be fabulous. These are fairy tales that are being pedled to you. I'm not trying to be political because the other side pedals their own kinds of fairy tales. Believe me, I understand that.
Can I ask you a question about this book? Um, which is kind of linked to what you're saying now, the 48 laws of power.
What demographic emails you the most about the book?
Young men.
Young men voted for Trump.
I know you're someone that I sense and from what I've understood from my research isn't a big fan of Trump. And so what what do you say to those people about why you you have that position and what they're misunderstanding potentially?
The thing I I do want to say is that you want to be able to think for yourself. Okay? So let's say you think Trump is the answer. He's going to have he's going to solve all of our problems. Well, be capable of stepping back and going, maybe some of the things he's doing I don't agree with, aren't right. You know, have some discrimination, have some self-distance, have be able to crit criticize your own side. So, I'm on on on the left on the Democratic liberal side. They are buffoons. They are fools. They are out of absolutely incompetent. And I don't I'm afraid to say it. They make terrible mistakes. They blew this election. They're stupid and it's painful to say that because it's the side that I support, but I do not believe in everything that they pro promote. There are things I disagree with them on the some of their woke policies I just find are ludicrous. Okay? So, be able to say stand back and say, "I don't agree with everything he says. Have some dignity. Have some selfworth. Say that I can think for myself and not get so emotional." Right? So, you think being masculine and being a bro is just say, "Oh, Robert, f you. You're such an idiot. You're so blah blah blah blah blah." You know, put YouTube comments cuz I get them all the time. You know, f you. You You can fill in the blanks, right? That's not being masculine. That's not being tough or strong. That's being an idiot because you're not able to think for yourself, right? Being emotional isn't masculinity. Masculinity is self-control. I'm afraid being masculine is being able to step back and go, "This isn't necessarily the right thing to do. I have to think about it. I have to do something that's more productive, that's positive. I have to criticize myself sometimes. Weak people can't criticize themsel." So, if you're listening to me, at least be willing to say that maybe some of my ideas are wrong. my ideas and your ideas, right? That to me is strength. That to me is a masculine virtue. Being able to criticize your own side and not get always so emotional and overheated and leaving nasty YouTube comments as as I'm sure I'm going to get right now.
You made me reflect on something I read the other day. I think it was on X and it was a study that shows that when the more testosterone you have again which we can use as like a proxy for masculinity in studies you're more likely to think for yourself. So they had two groups of um two groups of people and they gave one group of um people testosterone. I think it was a group of men testosterone. They both had to do this test and the ones who had the higher testosterone levels had been given art like the artificial testosterone. They were less likely to cave in to external social expectations.
Wow. Which I thought was it's a proxy for what you're saying, which is right on. Potentially real masculinity is having the the strength of your own convictions and being able to ignore social pressure to conform.
You you talked about wokeness in the left and how they messed it up.
Yeah. I consider myself to be I'd say apolitical, but it's more This sounds like a strange thing to say. I can just see the merits in things on both sides. So, I really struggle to identify with the side. I I think, okay, that's good for the economy, that's good for the different social classes and stuff and and so I I also just have I think um a very strong negative reaction to the binary choice that you're kind of forced to make.
Yeah. Right. Agree. I just, you know, so I just I've always kind of stayed out of it in that regard. But in terms of this wokeness and the the way that the left have screwed it up, what have they got wrong? Well, um, and what's Trump got right, I guess.
Well, I don't know. It's it's it's too painful for me to say what Trump got right.
Well, you've got to be able to. Uh, I know. Well, he he is I'll tell you what he's he gets right and what he's really brilliant at, which is communication and messaging. So, the Democrats completely suck at that, right? They couldn't craft a message to save their life if if they were, you know, if if everything depended on it. They're just terrible at it. They don't know how to communicate. They don't know how to make a simple message. Now, I said simple messages can be deceptive. But in politics, you have to have something like that. You have to stand for a vision for something straight and you have to be strong and you have to be willing to fight for it. So, I do have the ear of some people in the Democratic party and I say what you got wrong and what Trump got right is to show the public that you are fighters, that you are strong, that you believe in something and that you're willing to upset other people, other groups because you believe in certain things. He a large portion of the public he doesn't care about. He he's interested in his base. He doesn't care if he's hated. Okay? Democrats don't care if you put if you upset this special interest group or that special interest group. So people have to hate you. Being hated is a good thing. Stand for something and be willing to fight. You got that all wrong. He got that right. So I can admit that. And he's much better at communicating and messaging. Okay. When it comes to policies, there's a there's a pretty big gulf between us about what I think is good and bad. But I mean, wokeness is it it it's an ideology that isn't really connected to everyday life, to to to what's going on around us, right? It's it's kind of a purity test of these are certain things that we hold and you better either if you believe in them, you're on the good side and if you don't believe them, you're on the wrong side. It's a polarity. It's a black and white binary way of looking at the world. And that's not reality. That's not how things are. Things aren't black and white. Things have a gray zone. Yes, there are things that are evil. Murder is evil. you know, social injustice. We can all agree on certain social injustices. Yeah. But it's not like this purity test of if you don't believe in this, you're an evil bad person, you know? So on the Israel Palestine issue for instance, now I happen to be Jewish, right? Um and I've never been a Zionist my whole life. I'm very happy to be Jewish. I was bar mitzvah and I have nothing against it and I'm proud I'm not a practicing religious person in Judaism. I understand because I lost a large part of my ancestry during the Holocaust was deeply part of my childhood. A very traumatic thing that my even my parents were still recovering from. So when it comes to Israel Palestine, I'm very conflicted because I've met Palestinians who had a terrible impact on me as they described the horror of what happened to them and how the loss of their land and how deeply what a beautiful country Palestine was and how traumatic it was to lose their home. But at the same time, Jews were completely homeless from the Holocaust and they did originate from this land. I can see both sides and it's very painful. And if I were to craft a solution, first of all, I I think Netanyahu is is is a horrible person, but there is a middle ground that could be had where there could be a two-state solution, but the woke people, oh, God, forget it, man. You're just you're just you're you're in favor of genocide. Get out of here. That's not life. That's not reality. That's not how the world works. It's not how things happen in this world. You're not dealing with the real world. You're just trying to act like you're morally pure. You're not really willing to sacrifice to roll up your sleeves and come up with practical solutions. You just want to yell and rant and act and look like you're you're the most virtuous person on the planet.
But isn't this one of the laws of human nature fitting into our tribes? And because I think being in the being in the sort of political middle or wherever I am, you get attacked from both sides because sometimes you'll have a conversation with this person and they'll say, "Oh my god, you're you're rightwing." Then I'll have a conversation with this person, then they'll say, "Oh my god, you're a leftwing." So you just you never fit. And actually, my my instinct is tempted. My instinct my sort of like my primitive instinct is like just pick a side, Steve, and then at least you'll have a you'll have a bunch of people to protect you. Yeah.
You talk about that as well, how having a group of people around you and not being in isolation offers protection.
Yeah. So, it's it's tempting.
It's tempting, but you're going to lose your soul. You're going to lose your dignity in the process. So, it's fine to be part of a group. I remember uh I was a young man in 1983. I was on the left for sure. I don't deny it. I went to Nicaragua to report as a journalist on the war going on between the Contras and the Sandinistas. And I was more on the Sandinista side and they've ended up as things have rolled out that Sandinistas are truly evil. I mean, Ortega and what he's done to Nicaragua is truly evil. But at the time, I thought they were pretty great. And I remember one day there was this immense plaza that they had and I was in Managa. And Monoga had just suffered this incredible earthquake. Half the city was in rubble still. But there was this immense plaza. It was filled with everyone because the pope had come there and you know and it was a big deal because the senus was like you know anti- good or something which wasn't true. Anyway, I was there with hundreds of thousands of people and um the feeling of being in the group where everybody was on the same side was so intoxicating. I felt so a ripple through me that I've never had in my life again of just being connected to all of these people. It was so joyous and exciting, but then it's also very dangerous as well. So, you know, I liked having that experience, but as I got older, I go, I don't want to feel like that again because I think it can turn very ugly and dangerous. As it ended up turning that way in in Nicaragua, you know, it's like a Hitler crowd kind of thing. I'm always fascinated, weirdly enough, as a Jew, by Hitler documentaries. I can watch every single Hitler documentary. It's just riveting to watch like these Nuremberg rallies. My god, it's like it's like a drug. It's insane. All the people with their torches all marching in the same way with these insignias, everything. You can understand how people would get caught up in that kind of mania, right? But it's very dangerous. And even that moment in Monoga later when I think back on it, h maybe I I should have had a little more self-d distanceance from that.
Do you think we're in a similar time now where we're getting caught up in mania?
Yes, we're getting caught up in in easy solutions and and things that um aren't really thought out. I mean, what is human stupidity? question that has um f obsessed me for a long time. And in fact, the third book in my series was originally supposed to be the history of human stupidity, but my publishers thought it was too negative a subject. And it would have also been too long of a book. Um, but stupidity is the inability to think of the consequences of your actions. To think that you are certain that you know the answers. to take action based on this certainty, but to not think of steps three, four, and five that are going to happen as a result. And man, I'm seeing that all over the place on our political map where people take action. It's like our id is is running the world, like adolescence, like, you know, I'll do this, man. This will be cool. This will be interesting. You don't realize that you're going to get in a car wreck because you took this drug and you're driving your car. We're getting a lot of that kind of adolescent mentality. I'm going to take this action because it's fierce, it's angry, it's going to solve things, but the consequences down the road 5 years from now are going to be horrific. That is human stupidity.
You said that Trump is deploying the laws of power. What laws of power has Trump successfully deployed?
Court attention at all cost. He's the master of it. He's I remember uh I was in uh on a book tour. I can't remember where it was, some corner of the world. Maybe it was Australia, maybe it was Singapore. And everybody was talking about Donald Trump. It was like the whole world is obsessed with him. I don't think there's ever been a moment in history where anybody has had that kind of power. Court attention at all cost. He's the absolute master of it. He's law number 27. play on people's need to believe to create a cult-like following. He has a cult-like following, right? People, nothing he does can be wrong. He was actually God is on his side. God is protecting him. That's a cult. I'm sorry, but that's a cult. This is politics. It's not religion. You know, interaction with boldness. He knows how to interaction with boldness. Law 28, I believe, or 29. So, there are several laws. He he creates compelling spectacles, but there are a lot of laws that he violates as well.
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One one of the things I I was thinking about over the Christmas period was um identity and the pitfalls of having an identity.
Yeah. In life. And it reminds me of law 48 in the 48 laws of power which is to assume formlessness.
Yeah. What do you think of the the subject of identity? because it's useful to some degree, but it can also be our downfall as you alluded to at the start of this conversation when you say that, you know, someone gets to 30, 40 years old and they've almost have like a midlife crisis because they've now they're now like successful, I don't know, accountant.
Yeah. And that that's their identity. That's their friendship circle. I'm wondering what your perspective on identity is. It's good not to think in in such concrete terms of this is who I am to place labels on it like I'm a lawyer, like I'm a right-wing Trump follower, like I'm an entrepreneur. You're much more than that, right? There's something else about who you are, right? You have a soul. I know that's an old-fashioned concept, but I believe that people have a soul and it can be their character, their traits that they have that almost have they have when they're when they were born. It's what makes them who they are. It's their sense of dignity that they return to that self. But I can't put a label on it. I can't put a word on it. I can't say it's being a lawyer, being white, black, left, right, or whatever. Right? I like to think, and this will sound like I'm John Lennin in imagine or some sentimental thing like that, but I like to think of myself as a citizen of the world, as a citizen of of the universe. Um, so personally, maybe it's just me, I'm interested in every single culture, in every single religion. You know, I am just as much fascinated by the Yoruba religion in West Africa as I am by Buddhism, Islam, etc. They all fascinate me. Every country, every culture has something incredibly interesting about it. I've been studying things like the Aztec culture. I wrote about extensively in my new book. Just an amazing story, amazing history. It's not me. I I'm not ethnically uh Mexican. I'm not related to it through time or anything, but I'm related to it as a human being and I identify with it on a very deep level.
Which poem? The sense of magic, the sense of awe in the in the face of of this universe. The incredible sense of spectacle that they created this and I describe it in my new book. The city that they created to knock Titlan, it