Transcription
[Music] [Applause] [Music] thank you [Music] foreign
New Haven on wnhh FM New Haven's home for Community radio. I'm Paul bass, inviting you to look behind the headlines on the stories that make New Haven tick. Well, today we have a man who has made New Haven tick in 2022 and has plans to keep doing that in 2023. New Haven's new police chief, Carl Jacobson, took some time out of a busy day, a pretty hectic day today actually, in New Haven to fill us in and how it's gone. Carl Jacobson, thanks so much for coming on the end on wnhh.
Thanks for having me, Paul. It's good to be here. I'm going to ask you to please pull the mic so close you're almost touching it. So, July, July 7th, you were sworn in as the police chief. It was probably one of the least controversial appointments that have been made in that department for a long time. The community was happy you were appointed. How's it going? Is it what you thought it was going to be?
Well, I think it's so much more than I thought it would be. Um, but, uh, I'm up for the challenge. I'm surrounded by good people. Um, and it's, it's amazing. Um, it's very, it's a roller coaster, right? Like, we were coming into the holidays. I was feeling like we're moving in the right direction and then, boom, we have the murder of a 16-year-old last night. And that's hard to take. Every single one of them takes something from us. And, you know, we work very hard to get justice for the family. But, um, I think for me, it's about moving this police department and community into a place where we prevent these before they happen.
Yeah, it's the Carl you talked about, her everyone take something out of you. I have to admit that, um, I've noticed in chiefs over the years, there might be sometimes a particular murder or a particular crime that really hits them. Jim Lewis was here during the Annie Lane murder in 2009, and I, I really felt there was something about him thinking of his own daughter and something about that got him. But he wasn't from the community. He was a great guy, he wasn't from the community. I think these might hit you harder than what I've noticed some other chiefs because I think you have more relationships in the community. You spent so many years as a homicide detective and, and just, you got close to a lot of these families in New Haven. Like I remember only Strother over the summer, that was a kid when there was a young man who got killed in West Hills, and all of a sudden people are saying, well, Carl Jacobs, the father's telling me Carl Jackson was over trying to straighten the kid out, he was linking them to a job. And, and I've talked to you at other times where you, I could hear it in your voice that someone you know was just killed, someone from the family because you know, you've been part of this group identifying the small number of young people involving violence, trying to state them out. Am I right about that? Has this been, is that something you've had to learn as chief, how to get a punch to the gut because you know someone?
And then, yeah, I think it's, I think with community policing, it needs to be personal to us. You know, we have to separate our jobs and be able to go home to our families. But when you do community policing the way New Haven does, you come, become very attached to the community. First, I want to, um, correct you. I wasn't a homicide detective. I was in charge of Project Longevity. So I would identify the most violent or likely to be shot or shoot someone, but then go out and offer services. So that's how I made a lot of my connections. Um, but yeah, it gets, um, it's tough. It's very tough. Um, Struthers, I had a ton of contact with him. Um, I knew his family. I mean, you were trying to, you got that guy like appointments like for jobs and stuff.
Yeah, what was it like then to see? He was still a teenager. What was it like when you found out he was shot?
Well, I mean, you feel like a failure at first, I would say. And the people that do this work, all the officers, um, you know, we feel like we failed that person and the community. But I think the big thing you take from it is there's more. So this year, we only, only, and I, I don't want to say only because I don't want to demean any death, but we have 12 homicides. Last year, we had 26. So I know that 14 people's lives were saved. But I want to save the other 12 people. And I think we have seen New Haven down to as little as seven homicides and 50 or 40 shootings. And we need to get back there. And we get back there by working together with the community and the police.
Yeah, now, you know, I was thinking, there's no question the city feels different in the last six months. I don't hear anger at the police the same way. I don't feel controversy. So something really bad happens like Randy Cox, the prisoner who was, who treated very badly and paralyzed, and now there's a big lawsuit, protest. I wasn't feeling the same kind of potential for the city to blow up and police tensions. Do you feel that they're like, am I right that the, the relationship has pivoted?
Yeah, I think we're making some ground. It was tough with the, me starting with the Randy Cox. How soon was that after you started?
Well, no, it happened prior to me being, uh, voted in by the Alders. But you were running the department, right?
Um, the CAO was the acting chief, but yeah, myself and her were running the department. And, um, it was a tough hit. Um, because I based my administration on procedural justice, right? That we need community buy-in to police the community. And that we need, through procedural justice, we get legitimacy. And if you know, there's data that shows if the community feels the police are good and just and they're good people, they actually commit less crimes and help the police solve crimes. So I want to get further up that road. But I think we are getting back to that. And I, and I credit, um, the way we handled that situation with the transparency and accountability. Um, and I credit the Ellicott administration, um, in our department moving forward.
I saw, was so Randy Cox was in the back of that van. The police made a lot of mistakes. Even though some of the people involved were good cops, they made some really bad mistakes. And he got, they dragged him on the floor, and his neck was broken. He went paralyzed for life. And within two days, I saw something happen that never happened before, which is the police department, when they had been criticized for an action, released so much video that everyone knew what happened. We weren't arguing what was happening. The police, the press wasn't bothering you to find out more because we just had to look at everything. He gave us. The community protested, but they weren't clashing with you. And I guess I'm wondering how we measure success. So I think there's a feeling, you talked about fewer murders. That's important. But murders are a tricky number, Carl, because remember, we have a year where like there's a triple murder, and then there's revenge, and then someone at the, I'm thinking back to 2011, and somebody at the worked at a laundry was made at the bar, scale them also in those, you know, it's such a small number of murders relative to shootings. That, I mean, of course, it's great that murders went way down this year. Yeah. And we measured more in the fact that the city didn't blow up after Randy Cox.
Well, yeah, I think that's important too. And I do credit, like I said, the, um, the mayor and his staff and, and the police staff work together to release that information as quickly as possible. Um, we got the state police involved, which I think was important. We had the state police investigate. You know, I don't want to talk too much about it because there's an open IA now and I have to do my job after the IA's done. But, um, I think how I measure it is, um, you could have five murders, but people in the city could feel unsafe, right? So I feel like what's New Haven doing? Is New Haven prospering? Or people going out at night? Or people feeling like they can walk around the city? And I think they are. And that's the important thing. And they are because they see a walking beat again. They see their cops getting out of cars and walking around. They see extra motorcycles on duty stopping people to make it a safe, safe roadways too, because that was a big issue a year ago.
Well, um, and our numbers for, um, motor vehicle fatalities is down. Our numbers for pedestrian, what are those numbers?
So last year at this time, we had 19, um, people killed in, in traffic fatalities. And this year, we have 15. But I, I would say the big one is last year we had 10 people, 10 pedestrians killed. This year, we only have four. So we're working hard to to stop people.
Please do that, or is that luck?
Um, I think it's a little bit of both. And I'll take luck any time of the day to save lives, Paul. So.
But I know this one. I'm not criticizing. Of course, you're doing everything you can.
No, but I think you're seeing results of good work.
Yes. I, I do. Because I doubled the Traffic Unit. I put four more people on the Traffic Unit, which their number one responsibility is to make the highway, the roadway safe. So I put more people into that unit when we necessarily don't have a lot of people.
Right, right. So I felt walking beats were crucial and very important. We put walking beats out there. I felt more traffic enforcement was important. And, and I'll give the mayor credit because he asked me every day, are you doing more traffic enforcement? Because this is an important thing to him too. So we both worked on improving those divisions and work moving forward to make the city safer. Um, now, four different deaths is not really, does that make the city safe? But I, I think the walking, the lesser walking pedestrian deaths is an important thing there. And I see it. Like I was driving to work today, and I see a young man walking to school, and his head's down, and his, his light changes where he shouldn't have been crossing, but I knew it was going to cross anyways because he was looking at his phone. And he walked right across. Things but like we've also gotten a message out there, you got to pay attention. You got to, um, people are walking around looking at phones, people are driving looking at phones. So I think just the awareness piece and the enforcement piece has definitely helped.
We're talking to Carl Jacobson. He's been six months on the job as New Haven's police chief. But how many years? 17 years, 18 years on the job as a New Haven Police. Yeah, 16 years here and 10 years with another department. So what's surprised you most about being chief so far? What, what's the, do you have a moment you say, oh, I didn't expect this? This is different, or this is what the job involves, which I wasn't knowing it would?
Well, we had a tough month of October. It started with Chad Curry responding to a motor vehicle accident and being shot. Yeah. Um, and I got that call, uh, one in the morning, and I was told an officer was shot, um, in the head. And, um, it just, the worst feeling I've ever felt. But I will tell you, when I get the call, no. Well, he was, it went, he grazed his ear and stuck into his head. But he did okay. But he did okay. Yeah, he, he, it had to be, is he coming picked out of his skin? Yeah, he's rehabilitating. He's going to come back. But just right after that, we had the two Bristol officers killed. During that, we had one of our beloved officers, Officer Hint, die of cancer, and we had to bury him. And just that whole period of time, I felt like, is it ever gonna end? Like, oh, I feel. And, but I felt for my officers. I felt for the community. I could feel that people, um, were hurting. And the other big thing at that time, too, Paul, is I felt that the community cared and they reached out to us and they sent some food and, you know, um, they, they thanked the officers for what they do. Um, because it's a real tough.
One of the tricky things is, you know, we have a period of much more criticism of police. We have Black Lives Matter, some really important issues. People have marched against police. Police have felt that people don't appreciate them. But it's also true at all times, community appreciate the police, right? So like, people didn't want to defund the police in New Haven's poorest neighborhoods, but they also didn't want to be mistreated. That's a tricky thing to interpret, don't you think? So like, I know the police can often feel unappreciated, and yet there are those instances like you're mentioning when they, people show them a lot of love. I mean, what have you seen as chief?
Yeah, I mean, it goes back and forth. But I think overall, um, people like their police officers, especially when they are community-oriented. So I'll tell you a story. When I started in Rhode Island, we responded to 9-1-1 calls and we had a community police unit. So a sergeant of four people did community policing. Uh, but when I came here, I was told, you're all community police officers. And I really love that concept because there's nobody on the police department that thinks of themselves as not a member of the community and somebody who's going to help the community and move the community forward. And I know we get criticized a lot, the cops don't live in the city. But listen, right now, they're doing 16-hour shifts almost daily.
So they do. Is that sustainable?
No, and that's why we're, our big push is hiring. And we've been doing pretty well with hiring.
All right, I want to ask you about that. How many cops are we down?
Budgeted strength, we're down 72. Um, since I've been chief, we've hired 30 who are in different phases of training right now. Like 19 are at our academy and 11 are out at different other academies.
And how many have we lost since you were chief? Like every year people retire.
Oh, yeah. We didn't. So every year about 20 can retire off the sick leave buyback, and only 12 did. So I was very happy about that. Um, because usually 30 people sign up and only 20 can go, and only 12 went. So I'm happy about that. I hope people choose to stay because that's our institutional knowledge that we need to keep.
That's another tricky thing. So over the years, before your chief, we lost a lot of institutional knowledge, a lot of older cops left, including some younger cops too, who were lured by the departments. So on the one hand, you're losing institutional knowledge that's important, people have been around like yourself who know the people, know what these cases like. But you also have an opportunity, don't you? Like people who see things fresh and, and have new energy, new ideas.
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's some people that we lost that, that's okay. You know, um, and that's the same with every organization. Everybody in the world has different good employees and bad employees, right? Um, but it's, you feel it a little more here, you know? Um, and that's the other thing we've been doing here. You know, we're making sure that, um, people are identified with multiple IAs and they're given opportunities to have mental health checks and different things that are helping.
That's tough with police and fire, right? People feel like it's macho, you're not supposed to get a mental health check.
Yeah, I, I think we're far from that now. I mean, I would say 25 years ago when I started, yes, absolutely. Even 20 years ago. But I think it's changed a lot because we see the worst of the worst, and we go through everybody's worst day ends up on, as our job that night, you know? And, um, and that's tough. And, um, you know, even with a big push to recruit New Haven residents, of those 30 that we put on, we have 25 New Haven residents. But yeah, 25 out of 30 in New Haven. No, 25 percent. I'm sorry, excuse me. And then, um, 65 percent of that 30 are minorities and female, which I'm happy about that because we need a diverse police department.
Talking to Carl Jacobson, new police chief of New Haven. Uh, here on, on Dateline New Haven, wnhh FM. Another thing this year that happened was just a couple months ago, we have a crisis response team. And that's the team of social workers, mental health workers. That right now, it's a pilot. So if there's a situation that might be better handled not by a cop, so it doesn't escalate, and someone has more expertise, they'll call them. Although we're not yet at the point where they're going to do that instead of a cop, right? Because we're testing it out, right? It's a pilot right now with a baller cop as well. What are we seeing? Is this working out the way we hoped?
Yeah, we're seeing the officers and fire department call in. So we go to our call, like we normally would, deem it safe. If it's a situation that might not have been safe, and then if we see somebody with substance abuse or mental health issues that needs extra help, where the police at that point, all we can do is clear the call, right? We'll call for, um, the, um, Compass Team. The Compass Team, yeah. And they'll try to assist people in a variety of ways.
Well, you and I know about some cases where an officer's tried really hard to deal with someone who's like, you know, lost it. And they'll be patient for an hour. And if it's still a police matter, it turns into something violent. You know, no one likes that. So the goal here was that the police wouldn't have to be on scene dealing with something that they're not most trained for.
Yeah, and I think in a situation like, I think you're referring to, the cops were with that person for over an hour, right? At the time, right? Yeah. And at the time, he was calm. So what we do is the Compass Team could come and talk to him and give them other options.
Absolutely. And, um, I'm all for it. Whatever there is to relieve the burden. Remember, Paul, we went through years of just put it on the police's plate. It's the police.
Well, that's what's so interesting about this whole debate. So what I heard for years in New Haven, started community policing, and they would team as social workers and get the root of problems. A lot of cops who didn't like the change, were older style cops, more conservative cops, said to me, we're not social workers, we're not trained to be social workers. We're not trained, you dump every problem at our door. We said a very compelling case about this, by the way. The society dumps a lot of problems that, that it can't solve for cops and teachers to do, which is one reason I hate when people dump on cops because they're just basically dealing with the kind of junk, tough stuff that we just haven't figured out what to deal with, right?
Yeah. So for a long time, it's like, don't make us be social workers. But then the George Floyd protests happen, and the call to have someone other than cops deal with the stuff came from the people who were critical of police. So they said, don't spend the money on police, spend it on these crisis teams. So then those same cops, kind of in some cases, became critical, saying, oh, who are you going to call? Us. I mean, I see them posting on the Independent, the same cops would write, oh, gee, this is tough. What are you going to call a social worker instead of a cop? Let's see if that works out. Someone's gonna get hurt. And I always thought there was a grand bargain there that if we can move the politics from it, couldn't 95% of society agree that we need the police for tough stuff that might violence or breaking the law? And that it's better if cops weren't the ones having to deal with stuff that they're not most trained for that ties up their time.
Yeah, I, I do agree with that. But I think there's an element where the police have to do more than just adhere, you know, uphold the law, right? Like a walking beat gets to know the people to build that legitimacy. I'm talking about crisis teams, like mental health codes. Yeah, I mean, when I, when I was first pitched it, I wasn't sure. I talked to some friends who were law enforcement in Portland. And that seemed to work there. You have friends in Portland, like Oregon? Yeah, only because of all the different trainings you go to as an officer, because they are in the middle, they're ground zero of like police. I mean, there's nothing, we have nothing compared to Portland where people attacked the police there. Absolutely. Um, what did your friends say? Portland, Seattle?
Well, they're tied up constantly with protests and they can't do the real work, you know? So some of those situations, there's people that are losing their lives in those cities. Was in Seattle where it was occupied territory with the police station. Oh my God. Um, so, and it's funny because when we went, when I went to the training, it would have been in, uh, 2021. And I met a lot of people. It was police, um, Executive Research Forum. Um, I actually said, like, you know, even former officers here that were in Virginia, like, we had a hundred days of riots and burning cars. Well, not a single car burned in New Haven. You know why that is? Because the people aren't as mad. No, because I think the relationships are better, right? Um, so I think there's something to be said about when it started under pastor and walking beats and, and I know I keep saying walking beat, but that's the root of it, right? Because people become critical of walking beats in some cases, used to like them, they say times have changed and we just don't have enough cops and that every cop should take some time out and walk out of the car. But that these simones and cars too. But then other people say, that was the epitome of community policing. You get to know your copper people. How many walking bees because you didn't, we didn't have pocket beats. You put them back. How many did you put back on the street?
There's about five, um, night, right now. And it's at night only. Yeah, B Squad, you know, three to eleven or four to twelve.
Well, no, we've done, we're doing day shift too. We'll hire some for day shift too, depending on, you know, we look at what's going on in the city, where the need is.
Um, I want to get back. What do you think about that? So I, I think it's, listen, when I came to New Haven, I became a better cop, a better person, and a better cop because I was walking a beat. And I got to know my, um, people in my district. I mean, one of the women from my district actually testified at the Board of Alders for me to say, I remember him when he walked the beat, and that was 15 years ago, you know? Um, but we built such a relationship. We talk at Thanksgiving, we talk at Christmas, even though I'm not in that area anymore. And I think that's what policing needs to do because you, you win people over and people see you for who you are. They see you for the people you are and not the job that you do. Um, of course, we're gonna have incidents like, you know, George Floyd and things that set us back. But we need to move forward. We need to build trust with the community. And, and I'm not just saying that for, or, you know, that we have good relationships. I'm saying that because then that leads to solving more homicides and solving more shootings, which leads to less homicides and less shootings.
So you're saying a lacing building cannot be calculated exactly, but I think it's for the plus plus. All right. Carl Jacobson. So another issue has been the lockup. So the Randy Cox case showed that they've been problems with the lockup. But when you have an opinion, prisoners, people when they're arrested before they go to court the next day and go into the the prison system, we did not used to run that. They used to run by the state until like, well, like around 2015, 2016, we took it over. The state didn't want to pay for it anymore. Do you think it would be a good idea to bring that back to the state? Do you feel like things are under control there? Did the Randy Cox case reveal that we have problems with lockup?
That's a tough situation. So we've done a lot of changes and we're doing further changes. We're redoing some cell doors to make them safer. We're redoing, um, some cells to make them more handicapped accessible, to make them more suicide proof. We're putting more cameras and more audio, um, into the area so that if a body camera doesn't pick up an audio or picture, we can pick it up. Um, we're just making a lot of improvements. Even customer service wise, because if you go to that door where you bond people out, sometimes you can't get a cop. So we're going to make it a whole buzzer system where you buzz in and you talk to somebody and they'll say, I'll be right with you.
Part of it's been management, right? So that one case where the person in charge, who then was also around the Cox case, wasn't checking on someone who killed their cells. Yes. And yet another case where the woman was complaining, had a protective order against some guy, and they arrested her instead and locked her up all night. And she really had a badge. But I think that mistake was more on the street. But I get distracted. That night, they were listening to her, then they threw her back on the street in the morning. She had to walk miles to get to court and get her car. And I mean, I just wonder whether partly is personal, like, would you rather not be in that business?
Well, I think no matter what business we're in, we need to do better than what was done, right, Paul? I don't mean just that, but yeah, if I could give it back, I'd be right to re-running that. If I could get that back to a true detention facility run by marshals who are trained specifically for that, that's what they're trained for, that's their thing. That gives us also five officers and a supervisor back to be on the street doing what they need to be.
Will the state ever consider taking it back? Do you think?
I don't believe so. I mean, they just didn't want the cost. Yeah, I think, I think it became a great cost. I think they, um, lowered the number of marshals as well. Um, you know, I think it's something we'll always, if we were offered it, would, would like to find.
Is it at the lock covers it before they get? So our supervisors set the bonds. But then there'll be a bondsman that comes in routinely and lowers the bonds. Um, not a bondsman, a, um, I can't think of the word. Someone works for the court. See, because it was honest. You know, the whole bond conversation has been interesting because you guys raised the issue, people get let out too early. But other people want to eliminate cash bonds. And that's another case where I'm wondering where people are talking past each other. Because the idea of cash bond is, if the idea of bond is, if someone's a threat to the public, why would you have any bond? If someone can go out and hurt someone, you don't want them released. Why can't a judge be convinced this person might shoot someone, this person might fleece? So you don't, I understand the state law says you have to set some kind of bond. But like, you know, could be very high. Whereas when it's set, any small amount, it really becomes, if you're wealthier, you can get out. If you're poor, you can't. So it doesn't become based on how dangerous you are. It comes, dangerous people have money get to get out, and dangerous people who don't, or not dangerous people who have money, don't get to get out. And the decision isn't made based on the danger of the public, because maybe I don't care. So I don't get this whole industry.
So yeah, it is tough. Um, Rhode Island did it a little different. If you were a parole or probation violator, you were held without bond until a hearing two weeks later. And I really like that system because most of our people either shot or shooting are some form of supervision, right? So we would save more lives if we had. So you have a shooting and say, we catch somebody with a gun, but we can't arrest them for the shooting. Say they don't make bond and stay in jail for a couple weeks. That allows the streets to kind of de-escalate a little themselves, you know? If they get right back out and get another gun, the violence continues, right?
Carl Raiders is listening. He says juveniles don't even get locked up. Is that true? Don't need to get, don't even get locked up.
Um, there's situations where they spend a couple weeks in lockup. Um, but they have eliminated the lack of facilities for juveniles. Um, I remember the kids who beat up the rabbi in Linwood Place, they've been let out right before. Yeah, yeah.
And Carlo says, how many officers? Thanks for listening. Carl, is the, is the department short? You said we're 72 below budget. Is still, we've hired 30. Does that mean we're 42 short? Or no, 72 after the 30?
After the 30. So we're still 70 short, 72 short. Yeah.
Do we want to fill all those? Or do we not need all those? That's more officers per capita than some other cities.
We need the bodies. Or do we need the deployment different? No, we need the bodies. I mean, I don't, I don't know what the true number is, but I know it's where we are right now. We need more.
16 hours. Yeah. And, and this is where, where our personnel are at minimum staffing levels, a lot of times, you know, especially on a weekend, because you got to allow people to have certain days off and people come up for funerals and weddings and whatnot. But, you know, you need to have, if you want community policing, if you want the officers to have time to spend time with residents and do the things that you want them to do and walk beats and still respond to 9-1-1 calls, I know you need more than we have right now.
How many do we have?
I believe it's, uh, 344, counting the people in training. Yes.
Okay. So that means that we would be 400. We're budgeted around 412, 413. What are the differences?
All right. Well, that actually would be 416 if that were the, is that the right? Yeah, okay.
And Carl Jacobson, tell me something you've done before. I remember that you're in the pandemic, at the beginning, we didn't understand how it worked, and people were more isolated. We weren't doing the check-ins that seemed to work so well. Or someone's in trouble, Project Longevity, you know, New Haven's store pioneer in identifying small groups of people sponsored violence so you can focus on them rather than randomly stop people. When was it when you started the check-ins again? And what have you done in the last six months toward that kind of targeted effort that may have helped cut the violence?
Yeah, so we, I would say it, it has helped because we clearly show a period of time where we don't do any call-ins, any custom notifications, and violence skyrockets.
What's a custom notification?
Custom notification would be, so we had the shooting last night. If we identify people who may or may not retaliate or family members, we go knock on their door and say, hey, listen, we know your family member was hurt or killed. We don't want you to retaliate. Please let us do our job. And we have a, a real conversation with them. And then on the other side, if we believe people were involved, we may stay the same. Um, and, you know, we stopped doing that all together. And now we're doing it and we see a reduction in violence. And, and not was that, when we started again, probably November of 2021. You know, so it takes a little time to, to catch up.
And are you doing anything more toward those ends in the last six months here? You stepped up anything in terms of?
Yeah, I mean, when we have, uh, an incident, we make sure we're out there. But prior to the incidents, if we see stuff on social media that looks like it might blow up or fights that might blow up, we make sure that we go out and do those, um, face-to-face meetings. But we all, every three months, we have a call-in. And at the call-in, we invite 30 people who are either just getting out of jail or on probation and parole, who the most at-risk people. Identify 30 people. About 30. Yeah. And then we give them a presentation like, we want you safe, alive, and out of jail. Which I think is the most amazing thing I started doing here was saying to people, we want you safe, alive, and out of jail.
And do people get, take the help? Because I remember early on, people, it mattered that you offered to help, but in most cases, they didn't. Now, most cases, they still don't. But Project Longevity has been funded better recently, so there is housing, there's other opportunities we never had before for, you know, and we, you know, we love taking advantage of that. Um, we're gonna, we're tracking the data now with the Justice Education Center, so we'll know. We're gonna need a little time to find out. Talk to other places like Waterbury had more murders this year, and they're a smaller city, right? What you were called there to give them advice about what we're doing? So I've worked with them. Chief Spagnos a great chief. They have a great police department there. Um, I've worked with them through my work with Project Longevity and Justice Education Center. They're doing the same stuff. I went to one of their call-ins. They did a great job. They really, um, have picked up how to do this. And I know as this year has come to a close, their violence has slowed down.
How many shootings have we had so far this year?
Um, 107. And what had we had last year at this time?
105.
Well, we're about the same. Okay. What is it? I mean, I think, I think a clear indication is our confirmed shots fired. We're down. Down 12 percent. Now, that may not seem like a lot, but when you're talking about 340 shots fired compared to 290, that's a lot of shots that are, uh, potentially, um, people shot. Or is there a lot we could do given, and we live in a large society where they're more people than guns, and people are kind of freaked out since the pandemic, even more than before, and they're just kind of shooting over crazy stuff.
Yeah, I mean, um, mental health's a big thing, you know, it is. I kind of feel like, like I heard, like Metro, where this kid got killed, I heard that that school was one of those. And it's not the only school where people have just been freaking out all year. They're like holes in the wall, and there's like marijuana smoke in the building all the time. They've been all these big fights. It seems like school's been a tough place, not just in New Haven.
Yeah, adults are freaking out. I'm not going to confirm holes in the wall and marijuana smell, but I will say that schools have been challenging for the police department and everywhere more. And, um, and it's concerning in other communities too. And it's concerning because I'll give you a good example. We usually have two SROs at Cross. And I know resources, and I know a lot of people are against the SROs, but the day that yes, both SROs happen to be off because they had vacation year that they had to burn at the end of the year, it was a big fight because the kids knew, oh, there's no cops here.
That's so interesting. So what school was that?
Oh, Cross. Is that this year? Uh, yeah, I think it was last week. So there's a big argument. And I sat on the board that talked about SROs. And I think it came out to something like 96% of the teachers and parents and students who were given surveys, because we gave surveys, it was during the pandemic, but we did a big, um, thing monthly, had agreed with having SROs in the schools. And I will tell you that we definitely arrest less kids with our roles in the schools because it probably don't happen. Yeah. And because the officers know the kids and can resolve problems instead of arresting them. If you're calling a cop from the other side of town who don't know these kids and just throwing them into a fight situation, you know, they're probably going to make more, they are going to make more arrests. And, um, you know, so I think in New Haven, we've always been successful with the SRO program. It's just, I only have five now. Previous years when we were fully staffed, we'd have up to 10 or 12 SROs.
All right, like hopefully. Would you, would you put more there?
Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
Okay, talking to Carl Jacobson on Dateline New Haven. He's the chief of police in New Haven. What about your own evolution of policing? So growing up, you've spoken before in the station about you grew up in a household where the police were called, and you saw them as people who were going to help, right?
Yeah, I mean, I grew up in, uh, Rhode Island in a kind of like low-income neighborhood. I had my mother and my stepfather. I had an abusive stepfather, and we didn't have a lot of money. And I had a stepbrother that was older that committed a lot of crime. So the police would come to our house all the time. So it was a tough situation. Um, and from the first time I had interaction with the police, I felt like, oh, this is something I want to do. I want to help people.
Oh, that's interesting. So you want to be a cop since you were a kid?
Yeah, very young age. And I think that kept me out of trouble in my high school and college years, because I really like, you know, using drugs or experimenting with drugs or getting in fights. I just didn't want to do it because I wanted to be able to become a police officer.
What city in, uh, Rhode Island was that?
Um, Middletown. Where is that? It's right next to Newport. Oh, okay. Yeah. So then you became a cop pretty early?
Uh, no, it took me till I was 27 because I did get in a little bit of trouble. So I remember being passed over numerous times.
Well, what about that view? So it sounds to me as a kid, and how old were you when you thought that, ah, when I wanted to be a cop, when you saw them and said, this is what I want to do?
Yeah, eight or nine, probably. So your view of cops were people who helped people?
Yes, absolutely. Has your view of what police officers do evolved since you were in the forest and since policing has changed in America, and we've talked about stuff in America and rethought what police do? Like, you see mostly they lock people up, they come when there's a crime, or is it pretty consistent from when you were in Middletown, Rhode Island? Consistent that, like, you know, if there's trouble, a cop is going to help?
No, I think it's evolved. And I've talked about it before when I made chief, that my big, big evolution for me was when I came here and I walked the beat. And then in 2013, when, you know, I call Project Longevity, community policing for offenders, right? Because we're giving them an opportunity and we're reaching out our hand and saying, we want you safe, alive, and out of jail. So I learned a whole new role of policing. Um, but I will say it's evolved. And I want to give you one story. That, uh, I was working for the national network and safe communities, learning project longevity, learning, uh, group violence intervention. And I saw this slide that said, um, there was so many percentage of young black men that didn't have a father figure at home, and they talked about incarceration rates. And I had my own personal story about that because I was at the private to this when I was in East Providence Police. I worked as a DEA Task Force officer. And we would, to control violence, we'd go out and do numerous buys and do federal cases on people. And what I found out was for 3.5 grams of crack, which, you know, I always joke around, say, I hope you don't know what that means, but it's only about this much, right? For that much crack, if you were a two-time convicted felon, you'd face 25 to life. Wow. And so we would go out and most of it would be gang activity, and we'd take a lot of gang members off the street. But maybe only four of them were the shooters. But the other 30 got caught in the net, right? And these kids left the street, 22, 25-year-old young black men got 20 to life. And, and then I had another case where we had 62 kilos of cocaine, and the guy who we caught for that had no previous record, he only got five years in the federal system. So right away, I said, wait a minute, this isn't fair. This doesn't look right. You know? And I know we implemented laws back in the day, um, due to the violence around crack wars and, but I mean, it just wasn't right, right? And, and it's since changed some, but not enough. Um, so I see that for what it is. And at that seminar I was at, what they talked about, I actually raised my hand and I stood up and I said, I was part of this, but I didn't realize what I was doing, and I was only doing what I was told to do. Um, so I think that resonates with me about change and bond amounts and bail amounts. I don't want to keep everybody in. You didn't give me an opportunity to say this before. Yeah, I don't want to keep everybody in jail, Paul. But I want to keep a certain few that are going to save lives. And we have the intelligence base to be able to say that. We just need people to believe us. And I think we took money out of the question. Just said this, we have the fact that this person's dangerous. Yeah, I mean, I don't, I don't know the, I don't know the, um, state law says you have to put a dollar figure out. Yeah, but I don't know. But what I'm saying is, I don't know the solution. But I know what we're doing now doesn't work because it hurts people that shouldn't be in, but it also lets people out that should be. Right? And my bottom line is, the police chief is save as many lives of everybody, but especially New Haveners, that I can do. But Levy Lewis writes in, Chief Jacobson, we appreciate you and your involvement in the community. Continue on to lead the department in the right direction. Appreciate you, Pastor Lewis. Thank you for your comment, uh, Pastor Lewis.
And we're talking to Carl Jacobson. So one thing I want to ask about being a police chief, and I noticed this with so many cops who work really hard and they don't get involved in politics. They're just like wanting to deal with all people, professing the community. When you're the chief, you have to be a politician too, right? Or do you not need to be? Like, has that been a hard adjustment for you to have to, or has it been fun, like just talking to all sorts of different people around the community in a different role, the space of the community?
Well, I, I mean, it, it, it, it's tough because I don't feel like I'm a politician, but I feel like I have to do certain things so that my officers don't have to do them, right? Like be that kind of political person or that person that really reaches out to the community, all communities of this, of this great city. Um, so, yeah, I do. Um, I, I like being out there. I like, because I hear so many good stories, right, Paul? I hear more good stories from people about my police officers than bad stories.
I love that. Tell me a good story about police dogs recently. You always put me on the spot.
Um, okay. If you don't win the top of your mind. Um, well, no, I was, I was, um, looking to promote some people. On, on January 20th, we'll be promoting some lieutenants and sergeants and detectives. And, um, there's a young man that works in Newhallville, um, and he is been in Newhall for his whole career. And he's a white guy who works in Newhallville. And I get all kinds of people, even call me and say, the officer appears, he's a great guy, he, he gets it, he talks to us, he stops and takes his time to do this job. And, um, he, he has ridden a bike out there, he's walked out there, he's done a lot of great things. And, and I told him that, and I, almost think he didn't believe me. And I'm like, no, people say great things about you all the time. And, and my job as the police chief is to tell my men and women, hey, they love you out there, and this is what they're saying about you. But also the negative too, to say, hey, you did it this way, let's do it this way.
Decisions you had to make. I mean, it was not like losing your virginity, but like as chief, you had a pretty early on recommend fiery some people who you personally liked. What was that like? How do you do that?
Yeah, I mean, since I've been chief, three people I've been fired. There's a couple more that's been recommended to be fired on. It's hard because you make connections with people and they work for you. But then when you have, like, people tell you the story, and the stories like really over the top. And then, and it was, and in this situation, it was just a matter of just telling the truth. And, and you're like, what are you doing? You know? Um, and, you know, we're all human and we make mistakes. So I'm not looking to fire people. But I'm telling you, since the Randy Cox thing, and in the incident that you're talking about, you have to treat the community with respect and dignity. That's what it comes down to. If the officers did that in these different cases, there would be a bit, a different outcome. Um, and, you know, I haven't had a chance to say it yet, but procedural justice, it's, it almost sounds simple, Paul. Give people a voice, treat them with dignity, neutrality in decision making. So you go to a call, and even though you arrested Johnny five times, you listen to what Johnny has to say and be neutral in your decision making. Say Johnny's arguing with a neighbor, and you don't label Johnny just because you arrested him five times, right? And then in the end, you're just, um, looking for that trust, and you're, you know, you're looking for trust for them to trust you, and you to trust them.
Are you glad you took the job?
Um, yeah, I'm glad I took the job, of course.
And then what do you got planned for the year coming up?
Well, um, hiring more, hiring more diverse, uh, groups, hiring more from New Haven, keeping this great city safe. I, I just, it just, you know, it's hard when someone dies in the city, Paul. It really is. For the, for the police officers, for the community. Training my officers, giving them everything they need. We're doing cameras, we're doing license plate readings, we're doing things that hopefully you'll see will lead to arrests for different situations, but also the stopping of different situations.
Carl Jacobson, I think you've got off to a great start. New Haven, I know the community appreciation, not just the people who called in and wrote in here. And your assistant chiefs, David Zanelli and Bertram at Tien, and their staff under them, are really having a good period. New Haven, let's hope it's 2023. There's another year like that.
Yeah, you can't do it without great people. And those two are two of the best. And I appreciate that time and, and all our command staff. They're working hard. And it's, we just keep going, Paul. You know.
Well, thanks for coming on Dateline New Haven, and thanks for policing our city.
Thank you. Thank you very much. To Harry Dross, the best production manager in the business, back behind the controls, putting us through the multiverse and 90 platforms. We're gonna take it out with the Afro-Semitic Experience performing "I Wish I Knew How It Would Feel to Be Free" from the group CD "Plea for Peace." This is Paul bass, inviting you to fly free with us all day and all night at New Haven wnhh, New Haven's home for Community radio. [Music] [Applause]