How A Gay Jew Rewrote Core Catholic Doctrine in the 1960s (This is CRAZY)

Hello, Simone. If you clicked on this video and are wondering, "Is this a clickbait title?" It is so much crazier than you think, right?

So, I saw a title going through on a Redeem Zoomer video. We've had him on the show. I think he's a great content creator, but he's a pretty small conservative content creator. Doesn't really lean into clickbait. Generally tries to dig into the meat and bones of religious history, Christian history, and theology. And it was the the gay Jew who infiltrated Catholicism or the Vatican or something like that.

Anyway, I read this and I was like, "This isn't normal Redeem Zoomer content, right? It can't possibly be true, Malcolm." I start listening to the video, I get to the end of it, and I'm like, "Oh my god, I have to know more." So I need to clarify a few things about this particular individual and the influence they have had on Catholicism.

First of all, is this somebody who was just like same-sex attracted or, you know, not not actually sleeping with men? Or maybe they, long after writing the documents that became important parts of Vatican II, Nostra Aetate, um, they, they maybe long after had gay sex or started doing gay activism or something like that. They were, while they were a priest during the time period they wrote these documents, having active gay sex with men.

"Yeah."

"And then it's like..."

"Hold on, you..."

"How can you be a Catholic priest in a..."

"I mean, I guess you could be malarial."

"Right. So here's the other thing. I was like, maybe they're just ethnically Jewish or something like that."

"Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah."

"They're probably not actually a Jew, just matrilineally Jewish and that's it, right?"

And then, um, he is, by the way, matrilineally Jewish. His, one of the things he fought hardest to normalize within the Vatican and Catholicism as a policy is that it is immoral to attempt to proselytize to and convert Jews to Christianity. Does that sound a lot like somebody who actually deconverted from Judaism? That makes no sense if you actually believe Christian principles, right? Like you would, I'm, I'm saying this, I'm trying to be like, as I have, I have tackled this particular conundrum every way I can in my head. And the only way, because then, like, wouldn't he convert back to Judaism? But the only way I can get it to make sense when I piece together his various writings, and then it does make sense, is he thinks that the Jews are still under the first covenant and that as such, you can have a belief that the Jewish worldview is both 100% correct and accurate, and the Christian worldview is simultaneously 100% correct and accurate because the first covenant stands and you have the second covenant.

And so he basically, I mean, if this is true, it means that he 100% believed in, even if he was telling the truth about being a Catholic, Catholicism and Judaism, or a form of Catholicism that's heavily different from other forms of Catholicism. Because now we're going to get to what did he write? So he wrote Nostra Aetate. This is an official declaration of the Second Vatican Council. It was overwhelmingly approved with a final vote of 2021 in favor and only 88 against. And it was promulgated, or officially issued, by Pope Paul VI on October 28th, 1965.

What that means in terms of Catholic doctrine is that's not the same thing as a papal bull, right? Like it doesn't mean that it directly came from God. But what it does mean, according to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, or like their official documents about what all Catholics have to do, is Catholics "owe it religious assent" or a "sincere submission of intellect and will." See CCC 892 to 893. It is not optional. And I will read through that, the like official Catholic doctrine on these types of policies.

What it said and what it introduced to Catholicism as a concept is that other religions, including religions outside of the Abrahamic tree, like Hinduism and Buddhism, have a ray of divine truth to them. And it's even written, it can be interpreted. Like now, after I went over this document, I understand now why so many of our Catholic friends hate Vatican II. I'm reading this and I'm like, "Whoa, posers. Like, this is pretty wild." And it, it goes through and sort of praises things about other major religions and sort of creates commandments essentially for Catholics around getting along with them, rather than necessarily trying to convert them.

"That's um..."

"Crazy."

"Very convenient if a Jew had entered the the Catholic Church."

"By the way, other final crazy thing is he also deconverted from Catholicism."

"So he like came in, vandalized church policy, and then..."

"Vandalized church policy in a very, and note, when I say he wrote the Nostra Aetate, this document, it's not like he co-wrote it or something like that. He wrote the entirety, as far as church history and anyone is aware of, the first draft of this document."

"Yes."

"It was heavily edited after its first draft and before it entered the sort of church law and stuff like that. And actually, it seemed to have gotten even worse in its future edits. In his original writing of it, it was really just focused on Jews and Christians getting along and Judaism being partially true. And all of the like Hinduism and Buddhism stuff was added by other people afterwards. So like the time..."

"Yeah. But the reason he left was also crazy. So within the church and during his time in the church, he was a well-known LGBT activist. And he left the church. And we'll go into that because, as he said, the the the church's stance on gays, which is odd because one, he, it's, he was a priest. He's not, in Catholic terms at least, is that that doesn't just mean you can't sleep with women. You can't sleep with anyone as a Catholic priest, right? Like their stance on gays had nothing to do with the fact that he couldn't sleep with..."

"Yeah. It's about celibacy. It's not about selective celibacy."

"Yeah. Although he was doing that anyway. He ends up, by the way, long-term dating another Catholic priest who is gay or former Catholic priest."

"I just..."

"No, I just want the Yahwei manga version of this. Fantastic."

"Yeah. You know how..."

"Oh, you want to get even more manga? Do you know who he's married to today?"

"Neil deGrasse Tyson."

"I don't know who. What? Ex-Catholic nun."

"God, you said that and my my computer just like demonically shut off. It was like, 'To process that.'"

"Ex-Catholic nun who he's married to now."

"Oh, my. Well, a very mananish nun, perhaps?"

"No, no, no. They don't have a sexual relationship. I think it's so that he can more easily have both a long-term relationship, which is something he's always wanted, and practice casual sex with gay men in, in potentially large numbers."

So, okay, I set the scene. I think this is absolutely crazy. I now understand why like all of the sane Catholics who like are are our friends are all like, "Yeah, I'm not like a big fan of Vatican II. That some, some fishy stuff went on with that, right?" And let's, let's just go into this, okay? Because it gets so, um, he knew he was attracted to men in his teenage years but remained celibate during his time as a priest, ordained in the 1950s. Left the priesthood in 1974. And note, his conversion into Catholicism is also pretty fishy. So we'll get into that as well.

In his 2016 autobiography, *The Oil Has Not Run Dry*, he came out. He described falling in love with men emotionally in his younger years, the joy mixed with pain because it couldn't be reciprocated due to his vows. His first gay experience was at the age of 40, around 1963. This was around the age that he wrote this document, which he described as exciting but ultimately disappointing because he wanted a committed partner. After leaving the priesthood, he married Shirley Flynn, a former nun, in 1978. They lived together platonically until her death in 2007. He described continuing to explore his sexuality in other "nonconformist ways." In 1986, after moving to Montreal, he fell in love with a former priest, a male partner, and remained committed to that relationship.

"Now, this is also pretty interesting because that's a huge age gap relationship there."

"On the bright side, I mean, we've got gay romance, we got the costumes, we got the age gap. This is just perfect manga fodder for some kind of priest yandere series. So..."

"This is, this is one of the things where if you come to the conclusion that I do in this, and you're watching this, that he just never stopped being Jewish."

"I'm not getting the Jewishness in any of this though. I..."

"Where's, where is the Jew coming in?"

"We haven't, we haven't gotten to that yet."

"Okay. Because I, I don't, none of this feels like someone who's very Jewish. I just, it just feels like someone who's kind of trolling the church."

"But if you, if you..."

"No, suppose you are an actual Jew right now. Keep in mind, Jews aren't supposed to be gay either. So like, he's not good at being a Jew in that..."

"Like, again, to my point, this doesn't sound like a Jew. This sounds like maybe someone a little bit early urban monoculture, someone very 1960s-ish, just like free love, everything is real, God comes in many forms, that kind of person. There's nothing particularly Jewish about that. That has to do with a loss of culture, a loss of tradition."

"No, but imagine you're, you're Jewish, right? Even a bad Jew. I, I still think even as a bad Jew, even with that level of sin, this is one of those like sneak stat things where I often joke that that Jews are just specced into like way too high a sneak stat. It's not just they come off as sneaky. It's the fact that that Mossad has been able to pull off these insane things like getting terrorists to pay them for pagers."

"I love that. Yeah."

"When most recently, there's been this big scare with Mossad being a little bit too socially connected with a lot of high-ranking Trump officials and they're sending all this intel back on what internally the US government is talking about visa-vis the Iran war."

"Yeah. But imagine the civilization-level sneak stat that is to sneak your way into a household which decides what is religiously true for Catholics."

"Okay. Okay. So, he's he's misdirecting the Catholic Church, is what you're trying to say."

"It was with documentation that says you're not allowed to go against the Jews."

"That's not even like..."

"That's not even like..."

"I'm just like, damn."

"Really? Isn't that just, isn't that what he wrote? More just like, let's try to be more cooperative and kind if he's any other religion?"

"No. It basically affirms Judaism is is partially true in worshiping the same God. Well, it is the, I mean, they they share the Old Testament."

"Yeah. But most Catholics before Vatican II did not think Jews were worshiping the same God. That is even the concept of that is really a post-Vatican."

"Oh, Jews worship the God of the Old Testament and Christians worship the God of the Old..."

"I know that makes sense to you as a technocrat because we believe the same thing. I'm just saying that most Christians don't believe that. They do not. I guess someone's going to explain this to me in the comments. So, yeah, fine. I'll take, I'll take your word for it and then go to the comments."

So, I decided to look more into this to see how popes after it was out related to it. And it looks like they've just built on it since then. You have Pope Paul, this was the one who put the, whatever, on it, the the the seal on it. Then you've got Pope John Paul II, who frequently referenced and built upon it. Examples include addresses and anniversaries, specifically his 20th address in 1985, his 1986 visit to the Rome synagogue, and multiple statements on Jewish-Christian relations. Um, then you have Pope Benedict XVI, who wrote a letter for the 40th anniversary in 2005, praising it for opening a new era. So he explicitly praised it in relation with Jews and overcoming prejudices. As both cardinal and pope, he affirmed its role while noting some limitations. Eg. It focuses positively on religion, but should address the sick and distorted forms of those religions. Okay, whatever. Pope Francis marked the 50th anniversary in 2015 in a general audience, calling the message "always timely" and quoting sections on Judaism and Islam, and emphasized practical dialogue, friendship, and cooperation in the document. Then we have Pope Leo the 14th, who recently gave an address to a general audience for the 60th anniversary, highlighting its ongoing urgency for Jewish-Catholic relationships.

So what I'll note here is, yes, none of these are like papal bulls or anything like that, but for half a century at this point, well over half a century at this point, every single pope has reaffirmed and built on this document. This inception was deep and thorough. It looked like the age gap might have been around like 25 years for one of his relationships.

"Well, I mean, you know, they're very common these days. So..."

"Yeah. So, we'll start with his sexuality stuff, then we'll get into the Jew stuff. But that is that is fascinating. And it makes me understand more why we see so many of the Catholics who do not think the church is, is as it exists right now, is something that they can follow. And they've gone for other versions, their sort of past iterations of what the church taught. And it's always fascinating to me that they don't consider themselves schismatic. Although what's really funny is a lot of the like most famous schismatics, like Martin Luther, also didn't want to consider themselves as schismatic. Other individuals who didn't consider themselves schismatic were John Calvin and Henry VIII and John Wycliffe. I personally don't understand this, you know, now that Protestantism is large, maybe it's just twisted my brain on this issue. So, like that's just a common thing that happens to people where you have this sort of trans schismatic take where it's like, I don't define myself as schismatic. And I'm just looking at the guy in a wig and I'm like, but you're clearly just a guy in a wig, right? Like you're ignoring the church's teachings, right? You know, that seems, but anyway, to continue here. And and I think that at the end of the day, whether or not you're schismatic or not does actually come from whether or not you define yourself as schismatic. I actually buy into the the trend thing of schism schismatism because you, at the end of the day, get to decide, you know, what your heart thinks, right? So even if I, as an outsider, would be like, this looks schismatic to me, they, these insiders wouldn't, right? So to continue there, he knew he was attracted to men in his teenage years, but remained celibate during that time as a priest. And he used priesthood to sort of, this was part of what seemed to motivate him to become a priest. The ability to live a celibate lifestyle and and not be drawn to this. In his 2016 autobiography, *The Oil Has Not Run Dry*. So keep in mind, this stuff about who he's sleeping with and when he's sleeping with him is not coming from outside hostile sources. This is from his own mouth. Talk about this."

"Oh, sorry. We just went, wait, did we just go through this?"

"Yeah, we went through his first sexual experience and stuff like that. He described wanting to explore his sexuality in nonconformist ways."

"So, anyway, this, this is where it gets interesting, right? So, remember I mentioned when his sexual experience was, right? So, that would have happened when he was 40 years old. Okay. So the document by the pope, right, was officially promulgated. That means this is when the pope, you know, basically affirmed this document. When he was 42 years old. He..."

"Apparently wrote the first draft of the document when he was 38 years old and would have been working on the interdrafting process during this time when he was having gay gay sex. Right."

"So to get some quotes from him, 'Looking back, I began to realize my vow of celibacy had not been a meaningful religious commitment, but simply a promise to bracket my homosexuality, to refuse to explore its meaning and power.' He decided to leave the priesthood since, quote, 'Since I no longer agreed with the church's official sexual ethics and was exploring my sexuality in nonconformist ways.'"

"Oh."

"Again. What? You left the church to explore your sexuality in non-conformist ways, my brother. Straight men don't get to do that either. Like the level of this guy's commitment to the church, not high. You know."

"That is a little, yeah."

"M."

"And this is actually something really weird about Catholicism that I'm beginning to notice. And I noticed this from his writings on Catholicism. The way he relates to Catholic theology is a lot of people who are at like controlling levels within the Catholic church and Catholic religious orders are significantly less religiously faithful than I'd say like the average lay Catholic that I know."

"And that's been very, very surprising to me. And I..."

"Well, there's also such, it is a little something that I struggle with with the Catholic Church is the lifestyle, the day, just the day-to-day routine of someone who is in the clergy is so different from the day-to-day routine of a lay person who's really deeply engaging all the sacraments, right? Because you're looking at one life that has possibly a lot of solitude, you know, a lot of sort of communal living, sort of like a university style living if you are, you know, in a group or more isolated living, very independent versus, you know, a teeming family, lots of young kids running around, lots of, I mean, obviously priests work closely with their community, too. It's just, it worries me that, and what I like about the LDS church, for example, is that the people who are involved in policy are people who are, they came from the church, they raised families, they they've done the whole thing, they're living the LDS life, or they lived the LDS life, and now they're older and senior and and now influencing it and trying to make it sustainable and good, presumably. But if you're a Catholic priest, you've never done that. Like, you haven't had the family, you haven't raised the kids, you don't know the challenges of raising a kid in the church in the modern day."

"Why Catholics have such low fertility rates when contrasted with other groups. I mean, it can't help. There are so many factors, but yeah, it, so when when you say, you know, you don't see such great adherence from the clergy, well, can you be surprised when the clergy don't really live the life of the lay person? They can't, because they can't be married, they can't have kids, they can't raise children within the church. Instead..."

"It's kind of like how something I've noticed in this, like in a very different world, there's a lot of childless women who worked as nannies or as teachers."

"And they're like, well, you know, and they they sort of act like they know really well, like, I know how a child should be raised. I know all these things, but they they never really have lived it, right? They've only been like paid staff who work with children under certain conditions, but they don't know the full experience of it. And then they're very judgmental around like parents and parenting and how a child should be raised, even though they don't know what it's like to be on the hook 24/7. And I think there might be a similar dynamic that takes place with like a full-time clergy who's not allowed to engage in the sacrament of having kids and getting married because they're viewing it from a limited perspective that makes them think like they fully understand the experience when they really can't. Does that make sense?"

"Also, one of the things that was increasingly clear to me as I studied this guy's life is he seemed to do very little for like actually, like if you look at his writings and stuff like that, they predominantly seemed tied to gay activism, right? Like it almost seems like he was living off of Catholic tithings while spending his day and nights promoting like, because he just had, you know, you have time to think and free time when you're doing something like this, promoting gay stuff."

"And that seems to be a big way that like the the sort of gayness became more normalized within the church was specifically downstream of him."

"But to continue here, and and gayness is super normalized in the Catholic Church to the extent that we've pointed out there's even an article on like the gayness of Catholic priests where it's argued between 25 from surveys, 25 and 50% of gay Catholic priests are same-sex attracted, which isn't a ding on them. I mean, we often say this is actually kind of a an ethical way for society to deal with same-sex attraction. Absolutely. If it, if, you know, it's saying you can't participate in it, you know, at least use these people like ethically sourced eunuchs so you can get people without as much nepotism to have positions of authority within your religious institutions, right? Like, but that's also going to make them like way more open to these ideas and in an environment where people are skirting around these ideas. And I think that this might be where the normalization, especially in the heart of the Catholic Church, of trying to cover up the child, the everybody knows what scandal I'm talking about. I guess I'll put a line from South Park here."

"Why would he put anything in your butt? We don't know her. That's what we're trying to figure out."

"H."

"Hello there, children."

"Chef, why would a priest want to stick up my butt?"

"Goodbye."

"Now, I want to be clear that the Catholic institution was committing these essay attempts at lower rates than other large institutions like the US public school system by pretty significant margins. But that doesn't explain why they tried to cover it up like up to the highest levels of the church and put people in positions where they could continue to do this even after the cover-up. Like, if you're going to do a cover-up for reputation, at least keep the people away from kids afterwards. It was almost as if, or at least in terms of how they were acting, that they thought the mere fact that people were upset at them for sleeping with children was the problem. And I think we even see how the sentiment could potentially arrive through individuals like Milo Yiannopoulos, where he originally said that this was like a sexual awakening for him when a a priest hooked up with him as a kid, and that others may feel that way as well, and like the outside world just doesn't understand. That's, I don't know, one potential perspective. Like, okay, so bear with me here, but suppose you're like Milo and you were molested as a young person, but you felt it very affirming for whatever reason, Stockholm syndrome, whatever, or even just you actually did feel it affirming, it was like an important awakening for you. And then other, you see other people doing the same thing to other children, and you then see them being punished for it, and you would think, oh, well, this doesn't make sense. Look, just, I, as an outsider, I'm trying to find any logical reason why a good person would do this. And maybe Catholics can chime in and explain why they think that the church may have been covering this up in the way that they were covering it up, where it allowed the people who were doing it to keep doing it."

"This year, we're taking the boys on a weekend boat trip to discuss Jesus's role as the navigator of our lives."

"That sounds pretty fun."

"A Catholic boat trip. The Catholic boat's going to be heading on out today. The Catholic boat, get some hot Christian action that'll take you."

"But uh, the, the, it's always really perplexed me like, why did they not, why, why were they trying to protect these priests, right? When when they were like moving around the priests that they knew were the issues, instead of dealing with them? Like, I, I always thought there must be some form of normalization that I'm not aware of. Then I read this guy's writings in daily life and I'm like, 'Oh, if there were a bunch of priests like this guy, that explains it. There's basically a, what do you call it? A gay cult that has infiltrated the upper rings of the Catholic Church, the Vatican, right?'"

"Like..."

"No, they keep their mouths shut."

"Right. And so wait a minute. What?"

"Yes. But we've got to find out why these children are suddenly finding it necessary to report that they're being molested. Stop the problem at its source."

"YES."

"WHAT? THAT'S WHAT EVERYONE HE'S MARRIED TO AND HAVING SEX WAS AFTER HE LEFT WAS A FORMER PRIEST."

"It doesn't look great that that happened. Yeah."

"Okay."

"Or or it just means that when people realize they can't adhere to the values and rules of the church, they leave, which could be a sign that those who remain are being pretty good. I don't, I don't know. Just maybe, maybe."

"Right. That could be."

"Yeah. So, and note here, this episode, people might be like, 'Malcolm, like this seems like an area where you could really dunk on Catholicism. Like, why aren't you taking the shots here, bro? Like, we all know you want to.' And this is one of those, 'Oh, no, no, no, no, no.' Like, this is too bad even for me. Like, I'm like, I feel bad about this. I would like learning this history. It wasn't like it was almost like cursed knowledge for me because I was like, 'Oh, like this is, this is not fun to know happened to your religion, right?' Like this is, this is too much of a, this is like, you know, you don't like the other team, but then you see them do so bad in a particular game that they just get completely owned and they're they're walking off the field and you're just like, I'm, I'm, I'm sorry that happened to you guys. That was painful to watch. Which is what learning the story of this guy has been in terms of like my thoughts on the Vatican. But to continue here, and note here, I'm not saying this because I'm anti-Jewish or anti-gay. Like everybody, if this guy was secretly a Jew, right? Like, dang, right? Like I'm, I'm just sort of like, we all should be advocating for our own group. This is, this is where, you know, when somebody sees a Jew say something like, 'Well, you know, I support Israel over the United States.' And people are like, 'Oh, can you believe they?' I'm like, 'I mean, they're Jewish.' Yeah. Like, I support America over any other country. But I'm, I'm an American, right? You know, that's like the core of my identity, my genetic history, my cultural history. And if I lived in, for example, Britain, I would never move to supporting Britain over America just because I had a job there. I should clarify this is very different from supporting your own in a way that creates negative externalities, like the Jews did where the ADL ended up supporting and trying to deplatform that content creator who rightfully was calling out Orthodox Jewish communities for running welfare fraud or Habad did, and getting that guy who killed a bunch of people off, or the Mormon sort of cabal did around the bricks and mini figs. Yeah, that's that creates problems. But in terms of just being pro-Mormon, if you're Mormon and you know, saying, 'Oh, I'll hire a Mormon over a non-Mormon.' Like, of course, of course. Why would, why would we not want that? That's presumably what we all want. I mean, in this respect, sometimes we'll have like Jewish fans or Catholic fans who will be like, 'Oh, well, I'd support America over Israel,' or 'I'd support America over the Vatican.' And I'm like, 'It doesn't, I mean, I support America because I'm an American and my religious and cultural history as American. If your plan is to eventually become fully American, that will eventually, intergenerationally, lead to a break from your past identity. It's not a flex to not care about protecting your people. Your people are different from our people. And if you deny that, you can. America does integrate people, but full integration eventually means some form of true and permanent separation from whatever your original group is. And I think that we're actually seeing that within portions of the American Catholic population and their relation with the Vatican right now. It's just when is this fully accepted? And as well as was the American portions of the American Jewish population. Like the Jew who tells me, as some Jews have, that they would support American interests over the interests of Jews more broadly, I don't hear that and think, 'Oh, that's super cool.' Or the the Catholic who's like, 'I would support American interests over Vatican interests.' I don't hear hear that and I'm like, 'Oh, oh, oh, yeah, you're so cool.' Like any more than like if I move to another country, even if even if I spent 50 or 60 years there, I wouldn't support that country over America. And some people can move to America and become fully American, like I think Leaflet's a good example of this. But you know, I don't expect that from everyone. It's just that when it's clear that a person isn't moving here for that reason, there's probably another place where they would be better suited."

"You know, that's the, the guy was playing on team Jew, you know, his his goal was it, you know, in in inject Catholic doctrine with protect the Jews, right? And and he achieved that. So to continue here, he also thought gays had like a special position in in God's design even when he was religious. So here's another quote for him. 'I have asked myself, is there a special meaning in the homosexual condition? God creates the great majority of humans heterosexual and only a small minority homosexual. Is there a special task associated with the condition of this latter?' By the way, there is. It's it's self-control. But that doesn't occur to him. An an additional opportunity to exercise self-control and an additional challenge. Since they are an oppressed minority aware of the hypocrisy of society and the damage done by the dominant culture, I have suggested that gays and lesbians are intended to extend solidarity to all marginalized groups and demand greater justice because homosexuals are largely invisible in society. Their prophetic vocation will have a cultural impact and support the struggle for human emancipation."

"So like keep in mind that this is what this guy thought his spiritual mission to do with like the tithings that were supporting him."

"Thought Simone, before I go further, I'm just so floored. Like this is so, maybe this doesn't have more people talking about it because it's so hard to process that it actually could happen. I guess like it just, like if you were to see a flying saucer land right in front of you or like you were to drive by one in a parking lot, you'd be like, 'Well, I definitely didn't see that because that would, that could never happen.'"

"And so I actually, yeah. People know me like, 'Come on, this is a Malcolm. He's going to have an anti-Catholic conspiracy rant.' Like that word, that that should go like BUTTER FOR ME. BUT IT'S JUST like too blatant, right? Like it's like you spend your whole..."

"Yeah. Like how could this? My brain can't process it. It doesn't make sense."

"It's, it's like you spend your whole life on alien conspiracies and then aliens land in your front yard with a flying saucer. They come out and Elvis is hanging out with him and he starts doing like an Elvis dance in front of you."

"Yeah. And you're like, I, I don't know what to do with this."

"Yeah. We're just like, 'What? What? What? That's, that's not even like an interesting like, gay Jew infiltrates the Vatican and incepts them with weird ideology that inverts their prior religious principles. WHAT? NO. NO MALCOLM. BAD MALCOLM.'"

"Oh my god."

"But we're going to pull on this thread."

"Okay. And this is also why for me, and and I've always said like, this is why I really personally, when people always wonder, well, what's your source of authority, right? Ever having a source of authority that like is living and not dead for me is always really difficult because it can always just decide to disagree with you, right? Like this isn't just something that Catholics face. Suppose I'm a true believing Mormon and I truly believe everything I believe, right? Like, and and just like tomorrow, the church can come out and say, 'Your beliefs are officially wrong now. Update them or you're no longer a correct Mormon.' I'd just be like, 'But I really believed all of that, right? Like you taught me all of that and then I really believed it and now all of a sudden, black skin wasn't a punishment, right? Like what, what do you mean?' Right? Like that that was..."

"God."

"That was the the war, right? They were the people who sat out the war in heaven between Jesus and Satan, right? We, we've all, I, that that's not like tangential to my worldview. That's a core part of my reality, right? But to continue here, and and so I, I, I think that the way that a lot of American Catholics have gotten around this is they sort of, I think branched with, well, what the Vatican is doing largely around the Second Council, and now they practice something that's like adjacent and may may one day recapture the church, but like the, you know, and and if you look at current demographics, you know, that they might, the question is, is how far does the church go before they recapture it, right?"

"About some other quotes from, because I want, I want to, in his mind here, okay. The definition of human nature tends to reflect the self-understanding of the cultural elite."

"So here, what he's talking about is whether or not, I think gayness is normal, right? And he's trying to, and because he believes that like white straight males are the cultural elite with like their heteronormative ideas, he's trying to argue that like gayness isn't quote unquote unnatural, because I was, I was trying to understand his like theology on this because like the Bible's pretty clear on gayness, right? And and so therefore calling gay love unnatural is a cultural statement, is what he's trying to argue here, not an absolute moral one. He challenged the traditional natural law that homosexuality is inherently disordered. So let's, let's go into to what, what, what I think he means by this. Basically, when he reads in the parts of the Bible where gayness is seen as negative, he would say, well, that was just those cultures at that time, and that's where he got, you know, that's that's where he's like, so I don't need to follow what, what, you know, those cultures did because our church's theology and motivation has evolved since then. And what's interesting is you can sort of tell under what does he think that it evolved into? It evolved into the goals of the urban monoculture, this sort of, you know, endless helping of the society's quote unquote oppressed classes, which which doesn't necessarily map on to real oppressed people, as we've talked about in the press. It's it's more like an urban monocultural distinction of like ethnically superior groups in their mind. But let's go into the quote on what he said about Catholics and Jews because you might think I am overstating him saying as a Catholic, you shouldn't try to convert Jews. He said, 'After Auschwitz, the Christian churches no longer wanted to convert the Jews. While they may not be sure of the theological grounds that dispensed them from that mission, the churches have become aware that asking Jews to become Christian is a spiritual way of blotting out their existence and thus only reinforces the effects of the Holocaust.'"

"Hold on. What? That that like undermines all of Jesus's teaching."

"All of Jesus's stuff. Yeah."

"Okay. Okay. I'm not..."

"This is like, this is again, this is why I can't process this. Like, how did he get this through? Like this. It boggles the mind. Okay. Well, keep going. Maybe it will start making sense."

"No, that part wasn't in the official document, but that was something that he said in an official capacity. We'll get to the stuff in the document in a bit. Okay."

"Let's talk about his conversion. So, when did he convert to Catholicism? Formerly, you know, living in a a Jewish household. He had one parent who wasn't Jewish, his dad. He converted at the age of 23. That is very suspicious age to convert."

"Why? I mean, isn't that, you're you're almost fully myelinated. Like, you could argue that's your time of intellectual maturity. It's the time to really, most people convert if they are going to convert to a different religion between the ages of 13 and 23. But this is also an age where if I was a Jew and sitting down and thinking like, how could I have the most positive impact was my life for my whiter people? Like, what's the moonshot of moonshots, right? Like, if I could incept a group with converting Jews is equivalent to the Holocaust and you should from a religious standpoint get along with Jews, it would be the the Vatican, right? That that's that's the, I mean, I, I think of religious orders on earth, it might be the largest single religious order because you know, with like Islam, there's not like, even even if you could, there's so many different factions. So even if you could somehow inception..."

"We create and perceive our world simultaneously, and our mind does this so well that we don't even know what's happening. That allows us to get right in the middle of that process."

"How?"

"By taking over the creating part. Now, this is where I need you..."

"In do an inception on like one of the Muslim faiths, you still wouldn't affect as many people. So just be like, 'Oh, at 23 I converted.' And he said he converted after a friend gave him a copy of St. Augustine's *Confessions*. That's a weird reason to convert. Like, when people generally convert, it's either because they're on a mission, like actively seeking what they think is true, or, you know, something profound happens to them, or they see something that they think can only be described as miraculous. Like for us, or for me, the thing that really made me so fanatical in my belief was when like literally happening through this podcast and on this podcast is me going back to stories of the Bible that everyone in my childhood told me. They said one thing, and then I read them, and they say something that is one, both completely different, and completely implausible that people at that period in biblical history could have known. See our Adam and Eve episode or our Genesis Confirms the Bible episode, or any of like, just more broadly, I've been broadly shocked by how little and so that had me sort of be like, okay, it is miraculous to me that I could grow up next to these stories and not realize how sort of correlatory they were to reality as I understood it, right? You know, how much sense they made. The things that I thought felt unethical, like the Adam and Eve story, actually weren't when I reread them. And that for me was very, that that's like the way a normal person converts. I read St. Augustine's *Confessions*, and I converted. That sounds like the type of poetic nonsense that a Catholic would buy, but I don't really buy it myself. But anyway, what was his early work? So, what was some of the first things that he started writing as soon as he got like officially into the Catholic church as a full-time like staffer? Right. In 1961, he published *The Jews and the Gospel*, later reissued, 'Is the New Testament Anti-Semitic?' He emphasized God's covenant with the Jewish people as valid and irrevocable, drawing from Romans 11:29. 'The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.' The church is quote unquote incomplete without Israel. And Judaism continues as a source of divine grace, he believed. Okay. So, first, we'll just do a a broad overview of of Nostra Aetate and then we'll go into the various points in it. So, broadly speaking, it promotes a more positive view of non-Christian religions, eg positive remarks on Hinduism, Buddhism, esteem for Muslims, stating they adore the one God, strongly condemns anti-Semitism, and rejects charging quote unquote all the Jews with responsibility for Christ's passion. Affirms God's ongoing special relationship with the Jewish people. Quote, 'God holds the Jews most dear.'"

So, to keep going here, let's get into specific authority. So, first, I want to go into like how much authority does this have for Catholics. Okay. It's considered an authoritative teaching of the church. Catholics are expected to accept it with religious assent, the same level as most conciliar or papal teachings that are not defined as infallible dogma. So, no, this isn't infallible, but that doesn't mean that Catholics aren't supposed to accept it. We'll get to the official teaching on that. It is not a dogmatic definition like some statements on Lenten and earlier councils. It is as a pastoral and declarative document addressing the church's relationships with non-Christian religions. Catholics owe it a quote unquote religious assent or sincere submission of intellect and will. So the part of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is like the official things on documents of this type, by the way, it says, "Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter." Uh, and in particular,

"The apostles or apostates? Sorry, I'm trying to keep up."

"Apostles. Did I say apostates?"

"Yeah."

"That's quite a Fidian type there. The the apostles teaching in communion was a successor of Peter and in a particular way to the Bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole church when without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in an infallible manner, they propose in the exercise of the ordinary magisterium a teaching that leads to a better understanding of revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful are to adhere with religious assent."

So this falls into the category of, to this ordinary teaching, the faithful are to adhere with religious assent, which though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

"Because Catholics are also like, well, it's not exactly like you have just assent with faith and it's like, that's true, but that this is the actual teachings of the church on this because I wanted to double check on this because people always like, oh, that's like just a vague suggestion from the church. It's like, it's not a vague suggestion that is not official Catholic doctrine. That is a this schismatic belief, but it's okay, right? Like it's, you know, if you, if you believe that the church is wrong in this document, too, then they're just wrong in all the documents, right? So, you know, we can go back to the older councils. This actually gets to me and I think it helps me explain to myself what's going on better. In the same way that I get really confused when I talk to a Jew and they're like, 'Your children are Jewish.' And I'm like, 'They're like 1/16th Jewish.' Like, that makes no sense to me, right? Like I'm like, 'Yeah, I mean, matrilineally they're Jewish, but they're not, you know, no other culture on earth would think of them as Jewish, but a Jew will think, an Orthodox Jew at least, no, they are 100% Jewish.' And I just can't understand that because I'm from a different cultural perspective. It's the same with Catholics where a Catholic will be like, 'Well, I'm not schismatic.' And it's like, 'Well, you you do disagree with the magisterium on these issues.' And it's like, 'Well, I don't identify as schismatic, therefore I'm not schismatic.' And I'm like, 'Well, that's not really.' And then I'm like, oh, I just need to see this from their perspective. And it's not just their perspective, it's also the perspective of the people at the Vatican. They also don't see these people as schismatic. And it's just that I'm never going to be able to understand what it's like to perceive the world in this way. Yes. Okay. So, this is also rooted. So, if you want to go to where this comes from, it comes from Vatican II's Lumen Gentium 25, which the CCC quotes to build this out. But the quote from that is, 'This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra, that it must be shown in a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence. The judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to according to his manifest mind and will.' So again, religious submission of mind and will. Okay. So now let's get into the stuff that was updated by this document. The new belief..."

"Thought Simone, before we go further."

"Keep going. I, I want..."

To I want to see what the updates are.

Okay. Great. Yeah. So this is in relation to Hinduism, Buddhism, Muslims, etc. Okay. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and life that precepts and teachings which though different in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth nonetheless offer and reflect a ray of that truth which enlightens all men.

That's crazy. Um, that's that's completely crazy. And and and note here if you contrast this with previous councils, right? So we have the Council of Florence, Kante Dominino 1441. What did it say in relation to these sorts of stuff? It firmly believes professors and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels unless before the end of the same have been added to the flock. That that seems like certainly a a a very different teaching.

Yeah, a very different perspective, right? And I think a lot of Catholics still want to hold to that perspective. And so I I can see why it's becoming so popular these sort of pseudosismatic branches. So what did the document say about various specific religions, right? Because it also like even went so far as to start glazing individual religions.

On Hinduism, it says, "Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an exhaustable abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition, either through aesthetical practices or profound meditation or flight to God with love and trust."

On Buddhism. Again, Buddhism in its various forms realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world. It teaches in a way by which men in a devout and confident spirit may either to acquire the state of perfect liberation or attain by their own efforts or through higher help supreme illumination.

No, the I don't know. So in in the brag's guide to crafting a religion, you make it pretty clear there are basically two types of religions. You can have two types of approaches to what it is required to be saved. And one is limited to atonement. You you you can't save everyone, you know, not there are some people who are just not going to make it. And these are kind of in some ways not very nice religions because they accept that you can't save everyone and some people are damned.

Two more religions which have this perspective are the Calvinist denominations of Protestantism of which we are one and the Jews.

And then there's the other which is a more domineering religion which believes that everyone can and should be saved. And in this way, the religion is a bit unpleasant because it basically would entail, if you really want to save everyone, coercing people to convert against their will. And what this is trying to do is be neither. Like it's not like, well, no one no one can be saved. But it also it's not trying to save anyone. It's just like, well, everyone's kind of right, which is kind of the worst thing. Like, I don't care. Do what you want to do. It's the absence of religion. It's the antithesis of Catholicism and and any organized religion.

I I just can't believe they this has to like maybe someone's going to chime in in the comments and be like, "Oh, this is some obscure piece of writing that's not official in any real capacity. I mean, could that be is that what's going on here?"

It was it was affirmed by one of the major councils and the Pope.

Yeah. But is this the equivalent of like someone hearting something on X, you know, adding a heart to a post on X?

And not realizing? Why I went through the other documents, the specifically the the catechism documents and stuff like that so you could read before we get into this exactly the way that Catholics per previous rulings that were seen as coming directly from God are supposed to relate to teachings within this category submitting to them.

It's it's not the same as having faith in them. By the way, I put Simone's concerns into an AI to see what the AI would say. And it says, "Simone's skepticism is understandable as a lay person reacting to something that feels like a massive shift, but it's not accurate. Nostra Aetate is not some obscure low authority footnote. It's a formal declaration of the Second Vatican Council as an ecumenical council overwhelmingly approved 2,221-8 and officially promulgated by Pope Paul VI. Catholic teaching is outlined in the Catechism of the Catholic Church 892 to 893 and rooted in Lumen Gentium 25 requires religious assent, a sincere submission of intellect and will to teachings from the ordinary magisterium of the ecumenical council even when they are not infallible dogmas. This is distinct from full assent of faith from infallible documents but is still binding and not optional or dismissible as just a suggestion."

So, this isn't someone passively endorsing something without sufficiently paying attention to it or I don't know, someone just being like, "Here's an interesting idea. Sure, we'll publish it." But like, you know how the Huffington Post used to be, you know, they'd be like, "Yeah, we'll accept your blog submission." And they wouldn't really like

Yeah. This is very very very different than say like the Vatican wrote something in an official paper or something like that, right? Keep in mind that this had to be of of the declaration of the Second Vatican Council. So that's a a Vatican Council, mind you, right?

This had to be voted on by the bishops, right?

Of the vote.

Um, 2,221 voted for it and only 88 voted against it. So it was also overwhelmingly approved. Then it was promulgated. That's an official issue. That means review an official issue by Pope Paul. That's it. I mean, I obviously I I think that there's I mean, Catholics I I feel like want to say like and and well, you know, we don't the real Catholics don't take this sort of thing and the way that those documents say you're supposed to relate to this stuff is actually corrupted as well and this stuff shouldn't actually fall under that. And I think that Catholics actually have a number of outs here. There's been a number of things in recent papal elections that could be considered outright fraudulent. I may do a whole episode on that at some point.

Whoa. Really? What do you mean outright? Can you What do you mean by outright fraudulent?

They did some things the Jesuits did and how they held It wasn't the Pope of this Pope, but it was one of the previous Popes, I think.

Okay.

Where they pulled some shenanigans that sort of prevented people from voting, like the the block that was against them from being there to vote.

Oh, wow. Yeah, it it was I I can't remember the specifics. A Catholic was the one who would because obviously they're most invested in this when he was crashing out on me about the Jesuits and and and blackpilling me on the Jesuits and making me sort of see Catholicism as this fight of like the good guys, the Opus Dei versus the Jesuits for like the heart of what it becomes. But uh this the way I sort of see this right now like as I'm looking at it from an outsider is I historically as a kid was of all the sci-fi franchises and I was a big sci-fi nerd. The one sci-fi franchise I didn't really like was Star Wars. I I I like Star Trek over Star Wars. Starship Troopers obviously love SG1. Love. Got to do a whole video on how they handled the SG1 reboot because it treated the military too well. Oh no. Fans might like it. It did. It didn't make the tribals like like the military. Yeah. Well, and by the way, Stargate did not universally portray the military. Well, in fact, some of the most annoying episodes were ones where they I guess fairly, you know, well, NOT REALISTICALLY.

NO, US realistic depiction of how military bureaucracy can really gunk things up sometimes.

No, no, no. That was those almost every one of the episodes you're thinking of was tied to the US Senate or Congress, and the military was the good guy.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. You're right. You're right. It's not like they're even not realistic. You know, they're like, "What? There are some problems that the military faces."

The point here being is despite me not being a Star Wars fan. Watching Disney buy Star Wars and then start to just write like we hate you and poo all over the walls of the property made me genuinely sad. Right. Reading this feels a bit like watching the new Disney Star Wars where it's like yeah I might not have been the biggest fan of that property but like why do you have to do them that dirty right like and and as a Star Wars fan I feel it's it's probably pretty similar to being like a Catholic today where it's like well you know none of the real fans actually take those new ones and consider them canon right we're still all about legends over here what what are you talking about

We're in this for the long run it it'll come around again.

Yeah, everybody knows Disney's eventually going to realize this didn't work. As I've heard rumors that they're thinking about doing and recconing it, so we're going to get a Vatican 2 reccon just like go back. But

They can that's the cool thing is they can they can say look that was a mistake. I don't know what happened. It's over now. Undo.

There's Catholics. How could you reccon Vatican 2? Could it be done? I guess the best way to

Undo. We're sorry, we were wrong. How what

I asked an AI how you could reccon Vatican 2 with this context in basically what it said is full deletion is extremely unlikely. It would require admitting a major error in a council guided by the Holy Spirit which undermines everything the church claims about itself. I mean, I think the real way to do it was to assert that they didn't have official power when they put it out and that something had that's that's

I mean like obviously there's been instances in the past where there's been like multiple Popes at the same time and then a council came together and decided okay now we have another new Pope that decides you know because you know clearly you got to have a a a chain what do they call that the chain of what they got together they decided this new Pope and then the new Pope comes in and and immediately says actually Popes rule over councils and the council was LIKE BUT WE BROUGHT YOU HERE SAYING YOU WOULDN'T do that right so like yeah they they've done a bit of this in the past but I don't think any of that was as like written down as Vatican 2 was I don't think that that counted at the same category of stuff that can't easily be recconed but I mean clearly it recconed something else so like Catholics can chime in here so let's go what they said about Islam okay the church regards with esteem also the Muslims this is what is Islam. They adore the one God living and subsisting in himself, merciful and all powerful, the creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men. They take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees just as Abraham dot dot dot submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, his virgin mother, dot dot dot. In addition, they await the day of judgment. Dot dot dot. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

H yeah, which is interesting here when you take our our view contrast with our view on all of this. I mean, at least we take the stance of like while we do say that Jews and Muslims are worshiping derivations of what appear to be the same God. Like Hindus and Buddhists are certainly not like I that was that was wild. As the sacred sodom searches into the mysteries of the church, it remembers the bond. This is about the Jews that spiritually ties the people of the new covenant to Abraham's stock. Dot dot dot. The church therefore cannot forget that she received the revelation of the Old Testament through the people with whom the Jews, the people with whom God in his inexpressable mercy concluded the ancient covenant. And then they cite here on account of their fathers, this people remains most dear to God. For God does not repent of the gifts he makes nor the calls he issues. Romans 11:28-29. And so this directly quotes Romans. And then further they say although the church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God as this follows from the holy scriptures. And then on collective guilt this is from the nohate again true the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead presented for the death of Christ. Still what happened in his Christ passion cannot be charged against all Jews with distinction then alive nor against the Jews of today. It also decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-semitism directed against Jews at any time by anyone.

Okay.

But yeah, I had no idea that is really sad. That is that is I mean a potentially near god tier play by an individual Jew. Um, and if not that, at least a heavy infestation by the urban monoculture because he was already living, you know, the very least in the lifestyle of the urban monoculture. You know, sex with men while, you know, writing this stuff down. If you see his wider philosophy, it's very clearly more tied to the urban monoculture theology than anything that could have historically could have been considered Catholic values or the theology.

Yeah. Not even close.

So very crazy crazy conspiracy. And you guys

Conspiracy. Yeah. I guess that the larger question though, this doesn't appear to be documented for what you found. Who let this happen? Like you're talking about this guy going through publishing all this stuff, but all these people that voted for it, all these people that added to it to your point, right?

Who let this happen? Like if you want to know how could when people act like and this is the other thing that got me. I had this impression as an outsider that like when people are like, "Oh, we'll retake control of the Vatican. We'll retake control of church infrastructure. I hear that and I get this impression that like, oh well, maybe they've recently been able to get their hooks into the Vatican. Maybe there's like this ideological divide in the Vatican. 2,221 of the bishops approves this with only 88 against this. This is not like two power factions or something like that or an infiltration of the Vatican. If this is an infiltration of the Vatican, it's what percent is that? Yeah, I guess I don't know how the voting structure is set up. I don't know if this is like people around the world or a bunch of people concentrated in city.

So again here I decided to ask the AI to find out who are these bishops? Are they just randos or are they actually the people who run the Catholic Church? And it said the bishops who voted for Nostra Aetate as well as all Vatican II documents are the actual power structure of the Catholic Church, not random. They are called the Council Fathers, the highest level church government in an ecumenical council. They included all diocesan bishops, heads of dioceses from around the world, archbishops, cardinals, Eastern Catholic patriarchs, heads of major religious orders with voting rights. It was the largest gathering of Catholic bishops in history. Deliberately global for the first time, bishops came from Europe, but North, South America, Africa, Asia, etc., not just Vatican insiders and Europeans. This is why Malcolm and Simone noted that an extremely lopsided vote, only 3.8% against it shows nearly universal buy-in from the worldwide episcopate at the time, not just a small clique of Vatican insiders. 3.8% 8% of the bishops voted against this 3.8%. And that was in 1965. So like not recently either. Like when I talk about this institutional capture having been in the Vatican for a very very long time at this point. I'm not like that isn't me being a conspiracy theorist or something. I'm just trying to like lay out like what I'm seeing as an outsider. And so the best thing that you can do I guess if you want to recapture it is just breed and yeah get involved.

I mean yeah this shows things can change and things can also change quite violently but this means that I think that there's hope they can change violently in a different direction. Are you actually I love Simone as an outsider. Went from like your standard progressive whatever and now she's like the Catholic Church needs a civil war. THEY MUST TAKE OUT THE VATICAN. WELL, this is I don't know. It's like someone trying to change to they're like marching into an anime convention and they're like, "No, this is a Star Trek convention now." like fine, but go to a Star Trek convention. Like, leave the anime nerds alone. This is about anime. So, I don't I don't autistically, I don't like the the the diluting and confusing of the categories. I need Catholics to be Catholic.

I think if something was written by somebody who deconverts, it should be taken out of official church teachings. Like, that should be that should be the thing that invalidates it.

Yeah. That's yeah may I mean I think until pretty recent history people just didn't deconvert so there is not yet a cultural technology to address that and this is exactly the point you make among many others of course the private

Related for like a good reason it was just like he wanted to have sex with strangers like that seems to be the reason he deconverted

Again I think there's an argument to be made for that being then the system working as intended that the bigger problem would be if active And especially policy-wise, influential people in the Catholic clergy were like, I want to have gay sex and I'm going to just stay and continue to generate policy and do have it all. So, I don't see the deconversion as the bad sign, but I do see statements that seem to nullify pretty definitional or or foundational concepts, at least as I, as an outsider, understand them about Catholicism. And that's throwing me for a loop. But even from pretty devout Catholics, we hear about these like, well, there was this conspiracy and this particular faction was trying to mess with things. And I feel like there's a non-trivial amount of politicking, infighting, and influence campaigns that are influencing what's happening in Vatican City. And to a great extent, the most devout active practicing Catholics that we know have an attitude of look at the parish level, we are going to thrive, we're going to follow kind of a pre-Vatican 2 version of the of the Catholic Church and pretend that this stuff didn't happen. We are going to leverage the infrastructure of the Catholic Church and of bishops and everything else when we need it. Like if we need a a Catholic school to be spun up, they will lean on the formal church when they need to. But for the most part, they're just like, "Look, what we're creating is what's going to last. We're the ones having kids. We're just going to ride this out and eventually they're going to find their way back to sanity." But I don't know if that's going to happen. So just so you get an idea of like what level of authority this teaching would hold, it would hold the same level of authority as something like the Theology of the Body, which actually I think holds a little bit less because it wasn't also affirmed by a religious account. So that that sort of gives you an idea of like the level of importance and Theology of Body is pretty important Catholic teaching. So yeah, anyway, love you Simone. That's a crazy episode and

Understatement. Yeah.

It feels a bit like is this a simulation? Because like if there was something this big, why was I unaware of it?

Yeah. Yeah.

Like it seems like one of the first things you would mention if you were a Protestant talking about this stuff. You would think that. Yes. But again, I think it's one of those things where it's so outlandish. It's so hard to believe that it just doesn't process.

And again, I I have I think there's at least a good 30% chance that someone Catholic in the comments chimes in and it's like, "This means nothing. you're doing the equivalent of, you know, saying, well, you know, person X responded to person Y's comment on YouTube, and that doesn't mean that's an endorsement of person Y's, you know.

Yeah.

Endorsement or that there's different ways of relating to the councils or there's different ways of relating to the bishop.

So, I feel I I just we have to be missing something. It has to be something like this. the bishops who voted on this. The thing that I is is less than 4% voted against this. Like that to me shows that like the quest even if that's true for retaking the Vatican is an astronomically uphill battle.

Yeah.

That's like when my loading bar is at 96%. That's like when I

It's functionally there. Yeah.

It's like there it's done, right? Like it's cooked. Mhm.

But they do have fortunately current demographics on their side.

Yeah. We'll see. We'll see. Thanks for sharing that with me, though. That was a wild ride.

All right. Have a good one.

You, too.

What are we doing for dinner?

You're having the renang either with French fries or on Hawaiian bun.

Fries.

Okay. Fancy Korean fries or normal fries?

Fancy Korean fries.

Oh, if we have any. I'll make sure we have some.

We can do curly fries.

Oh, I thought you didn't like the curly fries. You did like

We just got to cook them a bit longer.

Okay. All right.

I thought I was approved. No.

Yeah. People were mad at us for like not being aggressively mean.

Yeah. What on earth? Like, hello. Like when we get I think this is something that the wider conservative community doesn't get about Ayla's relationship to the community.

We're talking about the episode from yesterday about how somebody from Ayla's circle actually made us against early stage abortion which we were not before through a very well-argued piece. But it starts the story starts with a birthday gang bang. Well, no, her essay doesn't, but like our discussion of her does because she recently talked about her experience meeting her future husband. I think I think they're engaged to be married and they have their together now at Ayla's famous Earth Day gang bang.

Yeah. And I because people generally in the conservative movement who aren't on like the nerd tech side, they're unaware that Ayla in terms of gravity and orbit has been pretty useful to the right in that because she tries to always say what she believes is true means that she is constantly pissing off the trans community and constant.

Oh yeah, she is the trans. Well, because you can't really talk about the science around transness anymore without just offending trans people. And because of that, she's actually sort of broke the egg for a lot of people's transition into more and more conservative ideas. And I think for a lot of people, the trans issue is their first step on that pipeline. Sex survey does have or big kink survey has one of the best samples of at least self-reported trans individuals of probably maybe any research done just given her sample size. So I don't know if she's said anything that's like disturbing but or that like makes them look bad has she does have very good sample data.

Well I mean she's the one who did the study when we did the trans one showing that transness is linked to violent fetishes. Oh yeah, we used to that's from her study.

That's true. That comes from

But but what I mean is while I may think her actions are immoral and more immoral today now that I understand the potential negative consequences of sex and I've become dramatically less sex like I'm kink positive sex negative now. I just think that non-procreative sex is bad until we have better forms of birth control. But in the net, she pushes people towards our movement and and advances like the number of conservative donors.

She's not encouraging anyone to live her lifestyle. Like I sometimes I feel like I get this insinuation from people of like that she's selling something to them.

No, she didn't like the gang bang. She tried a gang bang and did not enjoy it. Everybody like that seems like a pretty good indication of like don't do this people. A little bit but more is so into pulling on everything, but she's not trying to fob her lifestyle onto anyone and just like we aren't either. Like we're not a lot of people like to accuse us. They're like, "You're trying to convince all these people who aren't equipped to have children, to have kids." Like that's something someone just today was accusing us of and that we No, we absolutely don't do that. So, I think people like to miser on like Twitter or something

On X. Yeah. Oh, okay. So, like somebody has no idea what we're about.

Yeah. But a lot of people have no idea what Ayla is all about. So, you know, like it's I just think it's stupid. It's very annoying.

Yeah. Well, I mean the informational sphere, I guess, just when somebody's aligning with us on anything that puts them on the outs with progressives and they are also helping the wider project. I'm generally like pro them. Like that's the way I operate. I'm generally pro when someone is thoughtful and takes a first principles approach to what they believe and what they're doing and why. And that's

Sometimes those people can still be antagonistic to us or our efforts. And I I think that you know in those instances we need to

How much is the weight this m some more.

Hey, I'm going up. I'm filling up the basketball.