Transcription
[Music] All right, let's go out to Birmingham, Alabama. Talk to The Sun Will Come Out Tomorrow. To talk to Annie. What's up, Annie?
Hi John, how are you? So good. How are you? I'm doing well, thank you for asking. Awesome. What's up?
Well, my question for you is, how can I talk with my husband about the way that he communicates with our children?
Tell me more. He can be, um, very demeaning at times and belittling, um, especially to my daughter. She, uh, will be 10 later this month, and I have noticed a change in her behavior, um, recently. And she's come to me in confidence and told me that, you know, it really hurts her feelings the way that that he speaks with her.
Give me an example. So, um, say she's, um, trying to make herself a sandwich and she makes a mess. So instead of, uh, telling her, "Okay, it's time to clean up the mess. You know, don't forget to put your dishes in the in the dishwasher," he just loses it. "I can't believe you made this mess in the kitchen. You know, why does it take you so long to clean up afterward?" Those kinds of things.
And he talks to you this way too, otherwise you wouldn't be calling me. He does. When's enough, enough? Put your kids aside for a second. When's enough, enough for you?
I'm not sure. Here's the deal. He is dramatically unhappy with his life. He doesn't like him. He doesn't like how he feels. He thought everything in his life was going to feel different, look different. And if your 10-year-old daughter made a sandwich and, unlike any 10-year-old on planet Earth, she immediately cleaned up every crumb, he would criticize how loud she chews. He would criticize the way she walked to the table. She would criticize, "Why did you use two pieces of ham instead of just one piece of ham? You know, how expensive ham is?" Because his criticism and grenade-throwing is not about y'all, it's about him. And he's not on the phone. You are.
What has it been like in the past when you've said, "Hey, stop talking to me like that"? Or have you usually? He automatically becomes the victim and he says things like, "Oh, well, I guess I'm just trash," or "I guess I'm just not good enough, you know, for you, man." That's a gaslighting, manipulative young man right there. So I'll ask you again, how long? How long have y'all been married?
18 years.
How long's you been doing this? I would say the first eight to 10 years were really good, um, and things kind of changed after we had our daughter. The focus shifted from just he and I to her. You know what that's called? It's called adulthood and maturity. You know, you know what I mean? Like it's not like that's everybody's life. When you have kids, you have kid number one, your marriage changes, it gets weird, your money's different, your sex life is different, your communication is different. You got to rebuild something new. And if you don't, you go to shame or embarrassment or, "I don't like my life." And then you either withdraw from humanity and and just drink beer and watch Netflix for the rest of your life, or you just start attacking people in your life and making your discomfort and your dislike for who you have become in your own life, you make that everybody else's fault.
Well, how do I break that cycle for my children? I don't, I don't want them to continue to live in feeling like they're not good enough. I know how that feels, but I don't want them to continue into that.
You're probably going to have to have some conversations and take some actions that scare you to death. And probably the conversation starts with, "I'm going to be real direct with you. And if you start saying things like, 'Well, I guess I'm just the worst and I'm just trash,' then you are opting out of this conversation. I need you to stay present with me. Don't whine. Don't immediately make yourself the drama victim. I want to solve this thing for our marriage and for our kids." And if he cannot hear that, then you tell him, "We're going to have to talk about next steps until you go get some professional help because you're unable to have an adult conversation with your wife." But you have to be ready for that conversation because you don't like discomfort. And when he starts his "woe is me," that that wreaks havoc on your body, doesn't it?
It does.
Who else did that to you in your life?
My mom.
Yeah. Your parents were divorced when I was six and she left, and so your dad raised me. Was it your job to make sure Mama was okay?
It felt that way.
Was it also your job to put a smiley face on because Dad was sad a lot?
We had to make things okay, even if they weren't. That's that's how it felt. That's not how it felt, that's how it was.
So I'll just tell you, and six-year-old Annie, I'm sorry that you were responsible for that because that wasn't your job. Whether they stayed married or got divorced, it was your parents' job to take care of their emotions and their happiness and their grief and their heartbreak. That was never your job. In the same way, your 10-year-old daughter feels like she has to walk on eggshells with her dad and that her actions are being scrutinized under a microscope and she has to perform for him. That's not her job either. And you know this. This is why you called. But I'm going to say it out loud anyway. Your kids are desperate for an adult in their life who loves them to step in between this madness. And it may be that that what I, the like, the conversation prompt I gave you a minute ago, that may be too much. It may be a matter of you sitting down with your husband saying, "You have done this to me for 10 years, and I'm watching you do this to your kids. This ends now." And you can go down the "woe is me, I'm just trash," and that's stupid. That's a cowardly way to bow out of a hard conversation. You can do that. And if you walk away from this table, then you're choosing to walk away from this house for 30 days while we figure out what's next. Or you can stay engaged and we can figure this thing out. I think at this point, you are closer to the edge of this marriage than you want to say out loud. Is that true?
I felt that way for a while.
Do you have somebody else?
No.
Okay. No. I love my husband implicitly. I know. But you also are coming around to understand that you don't deserve this, and your kids don't deserve this. And your husband either lacks the tools. Every time he reaches in his toolkit, it's empty. And so he just goes to dragging the rest of y'all down. In counseling, they call it there there's the one-up position, which is the screaming and yelling and the "how dare you." And there's the one-down position, which is the, "Well, I guess I'm just the worst. Ever. I guess we'll just go have that food. I just won't eat. That's fine." That's a power play too. And like you mentioned, usually it's moms who do that, but it happens with husbands too, especially increasingly. But you have to have a confrontation, is what I'm telling you.
Are you safe to do that? Will he hit you?
No.
He's never been abusive, not physically?
Okay. Will he scream and cuss and yell at you?
You may.
Okay. I think you preface the conversation with, "We're going to have a hard conversation. And if if you scream and yell, you're out." I want you to go. Can you have an adult conversation with your adult wife? Role play that with me. If you were to say that to him, what was his, what would his response be? You've been with him 20 years, you know what he'll say.
"What do you mean we need to have a conversation about what? I thought everything was fine."
"It's not fine. And I need you to sit down and listen very carefully to what I'm about to tell you. And I don't want you to start defending yourself. I want you to finally listen to the words I'm going to say. Can you do that?" What would he say?
He's such a wild card. I don't know.
Okay. I don't. Sometimes it would be, "Okay, I listen." And sometimes it would be, "Well, you know, I've been at work all day and I don't know what this nonsense is about."
"Cool. I've been working too. If right now is not a good time, you tell me when it is. But it needs to be within 24 hours." And if he gets up and won't have the conversation, you can be very clear, then, "We're going to have this with a therapist, or we're going to have this with an attorney. You get to pick." And here's what we're doing. If you told me you were unsafe or that you were vulnerable, that he had a chance to hurt you, I would not recommend this. But here's what we're doing. We're shaking the tree here. He needs to know that his little pity party, "woe is me, I'm just the that is that that that game is over." You're not going to talk to my kids. You're not going to make my children fearful in their own home. Period. You've been doing it to me for 10 years. It ends now. And my hope is your resolve will be so clear that he'll stand up a little straighter and listen to you. Or when he starts his "woe is me" stuff, you say, "Nope, we're stopping that right now. Are you going to continue to listen, or are you going to make yourself a victim in this conversation?" Or, "Well, I'm guess I'm just trash." You're allowed to talk to yourself that way. I would never talk to somebody that way. That's a distraction. Let's get back to. And you may need, Annie, you may need to go sit with a professional counselor and practice this conversation. And you've gotten real quiet. Am I scaring you? Is this whole idea scaring you, or are you feeling empowered?
I'm feeling like I need to to find that strength. I don't know if I possess it, but I want to.
I think you do. I think you do. I also understand, and I've been there too, where I wanted somebody else in the room with us. I wanted a counselor there. I wanted a professional or a pastor. I wanted somebody in the room to make sure, A, I was saying things the right way, and B, making sure that the whole conversation stayed on the track, stayed on the rails. When I find myself unable to feel like I have the strength, I always write it down. That way I can go through multiple drafts and I can be very clear about what I want to say. I read it out loud. And I will sometimes have somebody else with me. Does that work for you?
I think that could be the difference between being able to do it and not.
Okay. I think that's very fair. I also am not a huge fan of, not a huge fan of the surprise attack. I like adults to act like adults, right? And so, "You and me are going to a meeting." "Well, I've been working all day, I'm tired. I ain't going to some stupid meeting." "Your marriage is at risk. I need you to come to this meeting with me." "What, what do you mean my marriage at risk? I thought it was fine." "It's not fine. I need you to come to this meeting. I've arranged childcare for our kids. It's at 6:00. I need you to be there. And we're not negotiating. We're not having multiple like rounds of this." "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I've said what I need to say. I'll say the rest of it at this meeting. Can you do that?"
I think I can.
Okay. And if he wants to call, I'd love to talk to him.
Okay. He probably won't, but I'd love to talk to him too. But I'll say this again, and I don't say this to pile on. I say this because you're the adult. Your daughter came to you and said, "Mom, help me." And she's watching and experiencing your response in real time. And six-year-old Annie is also asking you, "How long are we going to do this?" And I think it's time to set her free too. I think you have the strength. In fact, I know you do. Make a very clear plan and get somebody else that's going to be in the room with you. And maybe it's a couple that you all trust. Maybe it's another man that you trust. It's friends with your husband. It could be any, any, you decide who that is. But your kids deserve peace in their own home. And you do too. And quite frankly, so does your husband. Call me back anytime. Um, I'm really interested to see how this one plays out. So holler back at me after y'all have this meeting. We'll be thinking about you.