2023–2025 Ball Python Bust: What Survived, What Didn't, and What's Next?

What's going on everybody? Thank you for being here. Tonight I got Stephen from Leviathan back on the show. I've lost track for how many times that is. Tonight we're going to do a uh an autopsy on the 2023 to 2025 market. So so traumatic. Stick around. We got a good show coming up for you.

[Music] [Music] What's up everybody? It's good to see you all tonight. Uh it's 8 o'clock on the East Coast, 7 o'clock here in Minnesota. I hope that you're doing well. Uh I'm um equal parts like excited and ramped up and also equal parts exhausted. We uh celebrated my wife's birthday this weekend. It was a bit of a milestone birthday. So we we kind of went pretty big. Um and then you know your first day back and it was a long weekend. It ran over into Monday. So anyway, I'm catching up. Called up Stephen last night because I said, "You know what? I'm in a little bit of a bind and we do good work together. What do you want to talk about?" And uh so we put together a little show for you guys. So uh Stephen will be back. I say it like I'm not even like excited or looking forward to like oh Stephen's back. No. So we always do good good work and it's a good show and he's one of my longest friends uh in the industry. So I'm thrilled to have Stephen back tonight. Um always insightful and uh it's sort of well I don't know I don't want to make it about me but he stays in touch with with a lot of people. keeps his fingers on the pulse of uh of a lot of different heartbeats of the industry and with different people than I do. So, anyhow, we'll compare some notes tonight. We'll we'll get there in a moment.

Uh Kane starting things off right. 20 bucks right there. Who needs ads when you got people like Kane throwing you a little bit of money? That's Keeper Kane. Go check out his YouTube channel right here. Uh reptiles, fish, tarantulas. Pretty good ball python breeder as well. Check him out. Keeper Kane, that's him. Um, I liked F. Uh, hang on a second. SFC reptiles. This is this is the kind of uh mindset that I'm up for. Isn't an autopsy for dead things. That's right. You know, I wanted to say like a posttop or like a a post-mortem or like after you have a big event like you do a a wrap-up meeting of what went well and what didn't, but I didn't want to make it too corporate and, you know, had to have some people show up. So, that's that's what we went with.

Um, holy crap. Okay, more no commercials. I was just about to get to the first promo and say along with Keeper Kane. Now I'll say along with Keith at Creative Genetics. Go check out Keith. He's out in California. West Coast friends out there. I know for sure he's got an isanthic clown that uh he's working into many projects. He's doing some super gravel stuff, too. So check out Keith at Creative Genetics along with our good friends at Palm Street bringing you all the proper royals live content adree. No more interruptions, just unadulterated. Um, I'm just thankful that you're here and that you spend the time with me. So, thanks very much. If you're interested in applying to sell on Palm Street, the link is down below in the description.

Uh, guys, thank you very much. That's very, very generous. Um, I appreciate you both. Thank you for that. Uh, as I said earlier, a uh, very happy birthday to my wife, Kelly, more than I probably ever let on and certainly more than I tell her. She is absolutely the rudder on the ship, the most patient woman that I know. And a lot of times when I take a step back and I look at uh, maybe things through anybody else's eyes other than my own, I realize uh, she has suffered through crazy amounts of my madness. So, I'm so thankful. Uh, happy birthday to Kelly. Not that she watches the show, but if she ever does, she's going to hear it and see it.

Uh, my morph market is mostly up to date, getting better. Not quite there, but uh, if you want uh, so go check out that. I did put a few like breederesque things. I'll talk to Stephen about this. Like I put certain things on Morph Market, but other things like or other things that I'm like I I'm probably not going to post a Pied Het Lavender in my Facebook stories because that's kind of the pet place and they're going to pay for the hat lav that they're never going to use. Likewise on Morph Market, I'm probably not just going to put a run-of-the-mill Pied because I'm going to get run over on price, but a Pied Het Lav. So anyway, uh go check it out. I got some things updated on Morph Market. If you want to see all of it, everything top to bottom, go to properroyals.com. That is, uh, again, mostly up to date, not 100%, but really, really close. What's not on there, uh, because they need to shed and eat some meals, is a clutch of Ultra Het Pides. Uh, one of the parents had pinstripe in it. I, unless they're the same sex, I got two pinstripes. I'm going to hold those back. Um, little secret, pinstripe and ultraml, they both like accentuate golden color. I made a pinstripe clown ultra last year. Amazing. Like like the color of of the color of that orange there behind the $20 from Keith at Creative Genetics. Um, anyway, if you're interested in any of those, uh, I will have the non-pinstripes available as soon as possible. And if the pinstripes are the same sex, I'll let one of those go as well.

Uh, stick around if you like uh visuals because I do have ultram visual podi clutches coming up. Should have two and maybe three if if uh if the world cooperates. Um, also got some uh gravel clown and hatclown stuff. I know it's really really niche, but if you're into gravel and you don't want to worry about if it's it's yellow belly or gravel or gravel or something, gravel, that's it. uh a couple gravel clowns and hatclown stuff uh available here at the old proper royals shop. So go check those out. Everything is on proper royals.com. If there's something you think I mentioned and you don't see it, message me because I've been a little bit all over the place lately. So working to tidy that up, too. I gave myself a little talking too. Like I need to get my stuff in order.

So um other big news of the day, certainly not reptile related, but uh you know, we lose Aussie Osborne today. I'm admittedly not a huge metal head, but first like chordlike riff that I learned to play or one of the first ones uh is uh Paranoid by Black Sabbath. I still can remember playing that A minor bar chord to learn it. And then when you start playing lead, the first thing you want to learn how to play is Crazy Train. And then uh I've told the story before, but I really special memories of the song uh Mama I'm Coming Home. And uh one of my favorite covers to hear any band attempt to do is uh War Pigs. It was one of the first like like what is that? This is going to be awesome. Just that first like just snap of the the the the symbol, the high hat symbol, man, it's so good and it just doesn't disappoint. But I'll tell you what I've always really really been inspired by Azie about. If you look at his pictures of him performing, even all the way back to like uh 1968 early Black Sabbath pictures um in black and white, he always looks like he has this like childlike awe and appreciation for what he's doing. And a little part of me is like if I don't ever feel that way about what I'm doing, I don't want to do it. And I've never been successful enough to fully implement that reel because you can't or that that rule because you can't just quit your job because things aren't always amazing. And I'm sure they weren't always amazing for Azie. But in those moments when he's on stage, uh, whatever guitarist he was with, whatever band, whatever he's jumping around, he just looks like a kid splashing in a fountain for the first time and having an absolute blast. and that was even evident up to the show just earlier this month. So, uh in that way he has absolutely always inspired me. Of course, I love the music. Uh again, probably not as much as as some like just dieh hard fans, but uh definitely. So, uh rest in peace Aussie, but also I'm a believer that if music or art or something, uh is left behind, that's how that person lives on and and his music certainly will. So, uh condolences all you grieving.

Um, I'm going to after the show crank up uh War Pigs and feed these animals behind me and have a little moment myself. Uh, Stephen will be on here in just a second. If you don't know Stephen from Leviathan, started as Leviathan Snakes, rebranded recently to Leviathan. And, uh, Stephen and I got uh, I don't know, maybe you'd say mixed up. We got we got uh, connected uh, early on in my uh, sort of podcasting journey. Um, he was doing content on YouTube. I was doing content on YouTube. Uh, his was, uh, more like the traditional YouTube format video. I was trying this podcast thing as well as a traditional format video. One of the first people that I got to meet in like in the industry when I went to a big national show, which was uh, Daytona that year. And um, he and Courtney were were kind enough to I don't know, we just hung out and had a good time. And uh, we connected that way. And it's been kind of cool to parallel and challenge each other. We've gone about things in different ways. I don't know about wildly different, but sometimes wildly different. And um also one of my favorite people to have a discussion and a debate with. He's insightful. He's smart. He's wellconed. And uh he's got a pretty good knack for if somebody disagrees with him. um actually having a really good conversational disagreement, which is a beautiful trait to uh uh and skill to have these days. I wish more people did. So, anyhow, um, that's why he gets to come back uh fairly often, although I think it's been like eight months, which is kind of crazy. Anyhow, uh please welcome back for I don't know how many times to the proper royal stage uh Stephen Caps from Leviathan. Stephen, how you doing, man?

>> What's going on, man? Um, before we jump into it, I do want to say real quick, we chat chat, we were less than four minutes into this show and between Kane and Keith, they had already dropped $40. That is wild. Now, so one, I completely understand that doing super chats is not something that's open to everybody, but if you guys want to chip in, take a screenshot of the podcast right now and share it to Instagram so that way we can get everybody else here. But if you guys do want to throw in a super chat, definitely thank Adam because he did take away all of the advertisers. So, he's not getting ad revenue for this anymore. So, this is the only way that he's going to be able to truly have people help support the show. So, but yeah, Kane, Keith, you guys crushed it,

>> man. Thank you very much. That's another reason Stephen gets to come back. He does these little like spontaneous fundraisers and uh you know, I times are tough. It's summertime. People aren't buying animals. Got to get Stephen back on here, you know. But yeah, no, it's been

>> How's life been? Things good?

>> It's been great. It's been really, really fun. So, just various different things. We went to Costa Rica back in June. That was a blast. Um, from Costa Rica. We had our very first video ever get 10 million views. So, we were stoked about that.

>> Well, hang on. Hang on. What What got 10 million views? Was it a real? Was it a What? What did you do?

>> Yep. Yep. So, it was a real. We were down there with Bob, Mary, and Ryan, and we were out herping and we were looking for specifically the real was ones. We're out looking for the Costa Rican poison frogs. So, there's poison frogs and there's poison dart frogs. I don't actually know what the difference is, but our guide told us that there's a difference. So, we're out there. We find wild poison frogs by this beautiful waterfall. And we have like gloves on and Bob is taking a picture of one in his hand. He has gloves in one hand, his other hand is bare. It jumps out of his hand and on reflex he almost grabs it with his un like unglloved hand and apparently 10 million people really wanted to see Bob die. So that was what the reel ended up going on.

>> I did see that reel. Now like all like drama aside, what would have happened if he caught that frog? Like you would have been in a tight spot out there or what happened or what would have happened?

>> No, that that specific species which we didn't know it at the time because none of us are frog people but we just knew that they were poison and all that stuff. So that specific one that probably wouldn't have done much unless it got into like a cut on his hand and then if it did it could cause like vomiting. It could cause like him to pass out if it was like a big enough dose and all that stuff but realistically it probably would have been fine. That said there was another species that we found um while we were there that was significantly more poisonous, toxic. I don't know exactly what the right word is for the frogs,

>> right? Yeah. Oh yeah. Let's please let's there's plenty of memes out there. Let's let this be. Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. So, that that was our first video we've ever had that actually that's our first video that ever broke a million views, but it's just maybe a week ago it got over 10 million. So,

>> Wow. Very cool. Now, for uh people wondering, and you talk a lot about marketing and brand growth and all that, what does a 10 million view video get you? So, I mean, you get the you get the big bucket of pride, you hit the number. What were like some of the any Well, they're not really tangible. You can't hold them, but any statistical uh um results from it, followers, money, what you what comes with that?

>> Yeah. So, specifically on Instagram, we're not monetized on reals anymore. we used to be, but then they changed the like real bonus program and now we're only monetized on Instagram on carousel posts and regular posts, not reals. Um, which was pretty disappointing. But had we done that when we were monetized on like when they had the Instagram reel bonuses going on

>> that because I don't think that any of like the top end it probably would have been multiple thousands of dollars that would have paid out on it, but we just weren't monetized on reels anymore. Um, that said, on followers, I don't I don't know exactly because I wasn't really paying attention. I'd say between 500ish, um, is what I would guess, which I don't know the which I'm happy for because the big challenge when you have something go viral like that is that's not type of content that we can replicate. We can't put Rob in a life-threatening situation every other day. Um, so if we had gotten a huge influx of followers that were expecting that kind of content and then we never delivered on it again, it could kill our Instagram account because it would essentially be like, "Oh man, 99% of your audience never likes any of your stuff. It must be garbage." So yeah, the we all know the algorithm works in weird ways that way. So my and I haven't added it up, but I would say it's around five million views. my most viewed video of all time. Now, it's never gotten five million in one pop, but I repost it every now and again. If I feel like a little lag in uh in and you know, excitement, I'll put it out again. It is the crappiest video of me with a glove on smearing a sperm plug on the back of a snake to the music of Sweet Things, Sweet Dreams Are Made of These. And that's it. There's no explanation, no nothing. And I think part of it is that people watch it three times and then comment, "What is this?"

>> Yeah.

>> And so it gets engagement, it gets a lot of views, and then like nine people want to give a smartass response or cheeky response to the question because the people have no idea what the the waters that they're waiting into. That video slays, but like you say, that's not really content I can or that I'm going to recreate. I guess I could. That's not what I'm gonna recreate, though.

>> Adam opens up in Only Fans, but it's just him smearing snake plugs on or sperm plugs on things.

>> Yeah, exactly. Yeah, just around the room on the bridge on

>> on a cat. I don't even Yeah, I don't even have a cat, but if I did, that that's what I would do.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. All right. Uh, well, that's good. How uh how are the little ones, man? Every uh family good. Everybody's doing well.

>> Yeah. Yeah, they're good. They've been um just having a blast today. So, I kicked them out of the living room because they're being too loud. So, they are um or brooming. I'm not sure what although I'm sure they'll invade later on, but I think Courtney's going to be getting them down here shortly for bed.

>> That's always um it's always a good like power to enjoy as a dad. Oh, you're having fun. Get out. Get out now.

>> Yes. Yeah. We can't have happiness around here.

>> No, we can't do that. That would be that would be too much. Um, no, I do empathize. Summer vacation when you're trying to do work and you're happy the kids at home. On the other hand, you got your own work routine and you're like, "Look, dude. I can't chat with you about every random thought that pops into your mind that you want to wander in here and ask me about. It's not gonna work, man. Like, get out of here."

>> So, okay. Uh we you've I was I was looking last night that was totally transparent. I'd gone on this long uh weekend vacation with my wife for her birthday. I've been focusing on that. I was like, "Ah, I'll figure out something for the show." Of course, Tuesday comes around way faster than I think it will. Um so I was watching some of your videos lately and three in particular. Um one was uh uh let me see what what to start with with like 2500 bucks I think was one of them. Uh, one was about like um I think it was like boom and bust or something along those themes and there was a third one that had a similar theme. Um, and it it felt a little bit more almost like where where do we go or or is there still value and I thought that was really interesting and I don't think I want to rehash like what do we think the causes are? Like we we've we've all talked about that. How do we get here and that stuff? There we go. Whoa. We got the whole the whole Kane uh uh household is uh getting in the mix here. I like this. I like this. Um so, uh thank you by the way. Also, uh go follow Keeper Kane on YouTube. Those of youall that weren't here earlier that are here now. Um but uh I thought it was a really interesting thought to say, all right, who's left? Uh it's sort of like where do we go from here? What do you think we do from here? And then I also like the idea of like what do macro markets teach us? And I think you play a little bit in the stock market and you have before in the past and it's a little bit harder when it's our own like uh right in front of us when it's our own hobby business. But we know from history markets are cyclical. We know the basics of supply and demand. Is this a time for an opportunity rather than like uh fear or whatever? So anyway, that's my thought. But uh who or or are we at the bust? Is the bus has the bust happened or is it still in front of us?

>> I I think so. Also, so Michelle came in with the $10 and then Bill and Kate coming in with the 20. Heart of the Python. You guys are killing it tonight. Again, anybody who can't do a super chat, completely understand. Just share it. Share it. Get as many people here as possible. You guys are crushing me tonight.

>> All right. Well, for all the delays we get for super chats, we'll make up on the end and we'll run into overtime. You will get your content tonight. I promise.

>> There we go. There we go. We could talk a lot. So,

>> that's right. All right. So, the the the bust, are we there on the bust? What do people think? What are you hearing? What do you think?

>> I think so. And I think both anecdotally from what we've seen just selling animals, the vibes that we get as well as some data because Jessica from the whole backrackck did her like recent quarterly ston report.

>> The ston report.

>> Yeah. And she goes through there's like limitations to the data that she describes because of like it's going off of the sold prices on morph market. We don't know exactly what the end prices were, but overall essentially based off of her thing on pretty much every single morph that she looked at that the prices have essentially stabilized, not perfectly, but from this time in 2024 until this time now. So, for the last year, prices are essentially stable, which I think is a sign of hitting the bottom. That's an amazing stat right there actually because

>> I would bet most people watching this

>> have never been in a in a quantifiable stable ball python market. Like

>> that's a really big stat. That's an important experience. Uh I'm going to have to go back and rewatch that episode or not re-watch. I'm gonna have to watch that episode. That's intriguing. Okay, carry on. I like that. That's a great answer to that question. What else you got? keep going with it.

>> So I think that that's one piece of evidence to kind of signify that we are in a more stable market than we were in 2023 or even 2024 because they were still falling in 2024. So that's one. The second one is again anecdotally I feel like that I have seen a significant decrease in the posts of people saying that they're getting out and they're selling collections. It still happens. I'm not saying that it doesn't but not nearly as much as I was seeing in 2023. and that was quite a bit. Um, so I think that with less people getting out, there's less of a massive supply being dumped on the market besides just the babies that were hatched out that year. So, yep.

>> Do you think what it seems to me is and again this is totally anecdotally whatever conversations or algorithmic feed that I'm being given it does feel like there's less but it feels like the announcements that I'm seeing of people that are done or that are backing off or even conversational that maybe they don't post it because we don't have to post everything in our lives is like bigger almost icon cons like some of them that just say that they've run their course and you know what I'm not going to reclim this mountain essentially which I get that's how I feel about restaurants. I get it. But is that what you're seeing or you feel like that's maybe just a selective memory there?

>> No, I I think you're completely right and I think again I don't know. This is just me making stuff up. I think that from what I perceive to be the economic cycle of ball python breeding. I think that the bigger more iconic breeders either getting out or vastly pulling back is that kind of final stage before the full full the end of the bust. And the reason why is that again this is going in a little bit to the video that I did last week I think it was. But at a certain point in COVID a lot of breeders that were already established greatly increased their production because they could not keep up with the demand that they had. They ran out of animals. There was still people clamoring to buy anything. They increased their production hugely, bred every single female that they could. Every single baby that every single egg, didn't matter what it was, was valuable to them, right?

>> But then when the market got oversaturated and there wasn't as much people buying for the demand to keep up with this increased supply, those big breeders did make a lot of money during the boom time, but now they had increased their expenses. And over time, it's not like that they're immediately going to essentially fold or back off because they did have some level of cushion that they had built up, unlike smaller breeders who didn't have that cushion built up and they got out first. So, I think that what ended up happening is for various different reasons. Not all of its business. Sometimes it's personal life getting in the way. Sometimes it's just priorities change as you get older. But I think that with the bigger, more iconic breeders getting out that that is a sign that for whatever reason, the return that they are getting from the hobby doesn't outweigh the work that they had to put in given all of the animals they had. And it made more sense for them to either completely get out, switch to a different species, or drastically pull back so they could have a better work life balance. And again, I think that it makes sense that those are the last type of people to kind of get out versus the people who are brand new and didn't have that cushion to begin with.

>> Yeah, I I think that's all exactly right. Especially from a very rational financial business decision because most of the people were talking about it's from a business standpoint versus say the hobby standpoint where people are like, "Okay, well, it's come and gone for me. I'm not excited about it anymore." Uh, Goodness.

>> Even Courtney in the background. You

>> Yeah. How about that? All right. Uh, well, that's uh William from TJW Exotics, guys. Actually, and this is not I mean, I would say this if you hadn't paid, but because he did pay, let me really accentuate it. Uh really killer content. Uh one of the longest shows that I've done in a long time. And you guys know I'm a stickler for not running long. So, I mean, the content was good, the insight was good, the thought for provoking stuff. I've had people follow up with me that frankly strongly disagreed and I've had to say I'm not going to be the one to disagree with somebody that's been at it for 15 years. Go check out William's uh uh episode um just from last week. It was really great, man. Uh that's incredibly generous. By the way, William, thank you so much. I appreciate it. Um my pleasure to have you on and I will have you on again, man.

>> Um, yeah, to to Brandon,

>> if you guys want to get on the show, $100 super chat. That's how you get it.

>> It's a damn good start. I'll tell you. I I don't do pay for play. I have I have had people pitch that to me before where they're like, instead of like being an advertiser, can I just pay you? And I'm like, no, it's no, we got to we got to give content here. But, um, it's a good thought. I mean, it's a start, I gotta say. So, um, yeah, Brandon says, uh, you know, sometimes people just retire, too.

>> Um, I think from what what I was saying before, uh, William at TJW Reptiles uh, um, distracted me, when you combine all of those financial and and rational uh, metrics and statistics and you combine it with maybe you're exhausted or not as exciting anymore or you can't make what you used to. Again, I really feel it in restaurants, but restaurants were a little different. They were a little unhealthy for me by the time. I mean, there's a really kind of a dark place. Much less dark, though, is uh music gigs. I love playing music. Um it it's just not as exciting. I have my 3 to four hour show that I put on. I'll learn a few new songs here and there, but honestly to dedicate rehearsal time, gig time, paying somebody else, finding another musician to play as a duo, um figuring out what we're going to have left after we split whatever we have to with the bar. Like I'm I'm kind of indifferent. Like I'm like I'll do the gigs, which by the way, I am playing at I forgot to mention earlier locals. I'm playing at Egan Arms on Sunday at 5:30. I know this is a real bad pitch now that I don't sound very excited. It's going to be a blast when I do it. But I'm saying I understand the people saying, you know, I'm going to keep five or 10 animals and really love what I do and I'll I'll see some projects through, but there's other things or there's other ways or I'm just, you know, I I've had somebody tell me, you know, I want to be able to go to uh, you know, Costa Rica for 3 weeks and not worry about is my livelihood going to be here when I get back or who's going to take care of it, you know, and so all of those things. But I feel like I feel like those are the people that were I'm hearing the most from right now versus, man, I bought 60 snakes 18 months ago. I'm done with these things. It's crashed. Well, I'm like, yeah, well, you never thought you were going to see it through anyhow. Even if you think you thought you were going to, you weren't. So, um, that seems like what it what it feels like. I'm I'm really jazzed that you came up with the uh or that you brought to light the uh the this the stability of the market for a year. That's really a massive thing cuz we've been we're not quite as crazy as crypto, but I mean we've been at it for a little while of some some whip sauce. So So all right, we talked about who's not here and we talked about uh what what we think has happened with the market uh leading up to this point. So at this point, who's left? What do you think describes the people or the tribes or the groups or the ven diagram of who's left?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, real quick before we jump onto this, I do want to say it because it was in the chat. So, one, the sentiments in the chat. All of the stuff on people talking like getting out and all that stuff, that's not a bad thing. Like, nobody has to Kane brings it up in the chat right now. Like, nothing has to be forever. Just because you're interested in something now doesn't mean that if you decide 40 years from now you're old and you want to relax a little bit and you don't want to have to clean snake tubs and take care of rodents. That's still perfectly okay. And those people have done amazing things for the industry. So I don't want anybody to misconstrue us talking about these iconic breeders either getting out or greatly stepping away as a bad thing. priorities change, burnout happens, and again, they have contributed to massive things to the industry. But, oh, do you want to add something?

>> Yeah, I do because I think it's a good point. Um, Brian Kusco, maybe even just this week, uh, he was talking about downsizing and and a lot of what we're talking about, but he brought up a good point, too. He says, you know, it messes with your head. You have this identity. Like, this is our cool niche. This is what we do that nobody else does. and what's what's what's going to be there and what's going to be that identity when that goes away. Is it still going to be, you know, even uh Chris Eaton, I'm not saying he feels this, but he's been accused of like, "Oh, you're not you're not real anymore." He's like, "I'm not real. I did it for longer than you ever will, and I know I'm way more experienced than you will ever be." And so there it doesn't make people, like you say, it doesn't make them illegitimate. It doesn't make them uh whatever awful words somebody will sling at somebody else. Um it's just a change in life and a change in pace. And um sometimes, you know, Brian also said in that video, there's no sense in his situation, not everybody's, but in his situation to risk putting his family in debt. That's a bad decision. He's got to make he he needs to reassess and and refocus on where he's at. So, he's going to downsize. And that's some pretty real talk right there. That's that it's hard to acknowledge publicly. It's also hard for some people to acknowledge that privately just because of the identity that goes with it.

>> So I I know you had asked like who do I think's left in the hobby, but I had taken the first answer on the last question. I know this is changing up a little bit. Would you want to talk about who you think's still left in the hobby?

>> Yeah. So, okay, fair enough. Um I'm typically the one that asks the questions on my show, but you know. All right, fine. You you've earned No, I'm joking. Um I think there's some new faces is first what I think I think there's some new excited energy which is good and I was I was using that to think about myself. Uh there was a time and you know you remember this time of of of me doing this where I was doing a live show and at least one traditional video a week and I was doing it like clockwork. I was doing it like work, excuse me. And I stopped doing it and I definitely started doing other things. But when I look back at that, I was like, that was exhausting. That was a lot of work. And I see people that are doing that level of excitement. Right now, I'm on Mor's show tomorrow night. They're doing that kind of stuff. They're that excitement and that new energy. And I I I realized I asked myself like, have I become like taking this opportunity for granted? Am I letting my guard down? Am I thinking I'm just owed something? Um are sales slower because it's July and it's a tough market and uh you know, economics are weird or have I not put my pedal down hard enough? So, um, so I think that there's that there's some really great new faces that are very excited and I hope that their excitement is infectious, um both to other new people, but also to people who have ridden this out, which for all the reasons we've talked about can be an exhausting ride. So, there's those folks. Um, there's people who actually might turn out to be the most successful in the long term. uh are the people that have maybe been at this uh like starting in 2023 like they were able to buy all the way down. That's how you get rich is buying on the way down. So there's them, there's people that have gone through it um and and have kind of hitting that fiveyear mark. There's you, there's me, there's I'm not I don't have the list of people, but that that philosophical fiveyear mark of like I don't want to speak for everybody, myself going, "All right, I've seen a really high point. I've made it into this low point. It's a scratch and claw right now. But if I believe my basic economic theories and I believe what you're telling me that the market is stabilized, okay, that means this is the land of opportunity right now then and I want to get into that later. Um, and then there there are and you know they're the guys that are and and some of the women, but the guys that are mentors to you and I are people like you and I that have seen it and done it and they're just the the hold steady. They're going to get through it. You adapt. You change. Um almost like I I mean I'm uh 45 now. I don't know how many I've been through a handful of recessions, four or five depending on if you want to use the actual like economic definition. You tighten your pocketbook. You change your you change a few ways. You keep your head down. You keep working. You make sure you don't lose your job and or you do the best you can not to. And then you come out of it one day and it turns out everything was fine and the market still is going to average a 10% increase over decades through recessions and um um you know all the downturns. So, I feel like those are the guy I'm not at that point yet of of my outlook, although I want to be. I tell myself I need to be, but I think there's the guys that have ridden out the ups and downs that maybe were at this since 2010 or 2015 that have seen, okay, all the hype come and go, all the realities come and go and are still going. So, um, that's not a good like catchy answer though. Do you have like a more succinct like catchy answer? Like who's who's left?

>> All right. All right. I do have notes. I have notes on it. So, we'll see if it's more succinct or whatever. Um, because I talk a lot. So, the ones that I have, I have my left standing section here. So, I have people who during and the I'm going to go from like COVID, like 2020, 2021 till now. Like people who are in in 2020 and at this point are still in.

>> Um, people who kept it small kind of like as a hobby. They were primarily doing it for like personal enjoyment, not necessarily for money. But if they made money, great. And because they kept it small, they didn't overextend themselves. They weren't buying super high-end animals and then suffered the big huge price crashes. Or if they did, they didn't overextend themselves to the point that those big giant price crashes completely wrecked their confidence in the market. They just wanted to make some cool snakes and whatever money they made on the side was great. That's one group of people. I think that those people are still here.

>> Um, the next one that I think is that you kind of mentioned it as the people who got in in 2023 and were writing it down is I said people who were dollar cost averaging throughout the fall. So the people who got in whether it was 2020 anywhere around there and they just kept buying animals because maybe the first animals they got were overpriced compared to what their values are now. But because they kept buying animals and they constantly upgraded and they constantly were improving their collection, they were able to get amazing animals at significantly lower prices. So once you average all of their investments together, it was almost as if they were buying in the middle of the fall rather than only buying at the peak or only buying at the end because you can't time a market. That's like classic investing advice.

>> That's right. If if if anybody listening uh hopefully everybody knows what that means and I'm not knocking if you don't because that's stuff that they should teach us in fourth grade and they just don't and we don't learn it till we're old weird dudes, you know. Go look up dollar cost averaging. Study your butt off on it. It is how you will make a lot of money whether it's in stocks S&P 500 index funds or ball pythons. It's the best hedge that you could possibly have in my opinion I think. Anyhow, um, aside from GAN insight and amazing marketing, like just as a safety net, dollar cost averaging is one of the secret weapons that anybody can use.

>> Yep. Yep. And I I'll again, it's probably way more in depth, but for ball pythons, the idea is let's say that you get into ball pythons right now and you have $10,000 that you can spend on it. If you spend all $10,000 right now in this month, what's going to happen is a year from now, there's going to be an animal that's better than the ones that you bought and they are going to be cheaper than the ones that you bought. And they might even be the same age because they might have been hatchlings when you bought it, but it's just one of them that was left over. So, if in that situation, you would have waited to buy, you didn't actually lose out on your opportunity and instead you could have gotten it less. But you can't time that. It is impossible to time the market because there's always going to be weird things going on. So, the idea is if you have $10,000 to invest right now, maybe every two months you spend $2,000 to pick up a one animal and then next two months $2,000 get the best deal on the best animal you can find and you keep doing it that way. And then that's your dollar cost average strategy.

>> Yeah, I completely agreed. Thanks for bringing that is primo. Perfect. Um, so the last group that I have on here, which by the way, all of these groups I'm saying they're not mutually exclusive. I am sure that there are people who fit all of these different categories, but the last one is that even though it was a tough market, there were people who still made money. And like this is completely anecdotal, and I don't mean this to be conceited, but every single year that we have been in ball pythons, we have about doubled what we did the last year. Um, so if you compete well enough, even in a tough time, you can still make money, you can still stay afloat, you can still grow, and there's going to be people who are like that who are going to keep doing well in when it hits a boom time. So, there's a mix between those three are the people who I think are still left that got in in 2020 and now it's 2025.

>> I don't want to speak for you, but we you and I started around the same time. I think uh how do I quantify this? I think from the timing that we started there was good opportunity to do what you said greatly increase up to or maybe even surpassing in some years doubling what we had done the year before and you and I took again wildly different approaches. I still have yet to buy an animal at the price of any sunset you've probably purchased but we did it different ways. Um, now this year I'll be I'm hoping to do just to be slightly up on last year. So maybe maybe reflective of what you were citing from Jessica's show. May maybe that is the market leveling there. Although in theory I'm producing more and better stuff. So that's actually would be a drop off. But um there was there was something to that timing where uh in my opinion um I was able to I mean there was there was a couple years it was nearly triple year-over-year just from being able to reinvest and choosing smartly and then the market and everything selling and all of that. So there was there was those there were those things. But I wonder like I'm trying to think of somebody that started like last year or even this year and looking forward if that would be the same. And it probably would because if you're just buying things to hold back as hatchlings, uh they're not, you know, in the two three years by the time you get there, it's almost built in that you're going to double and triple because the good stuff is then coming of age uh in that time. whereas you're not always being held back because your stuff is immature. I don't know. I'm thinking out

Loud, but like, yeah, it was a great time. I mean, it certainly was inspiring to me. I mean, I went and bought car washes because of it. Like, it was an inspiring time. Now, like I say, some reality is hitting right now. Um, although I always do better in the second half of the year, anyhow, but, um, I don't know. I have to think through that from a financial standpoint.

So, um, of those people, who do you think are positioned to do the best? The old people who've, not the old people, the people that have been around the longest, that have seen the ups and downs, or the people that are the most excited, that are going to bring the new energy? Because I, I do think I have to admit, the energetic newcomers are often not to be, uh, ignored, I guess, is the best way to put it.

Yeah. Yeah. 100%. So, I think that I'll start on, like, the people who've been doing it for like 20 years and that they have made their mark on the hobby and that they have made amazing animals and all that stuff. So, we are currently right now finishing up the documentary episode that we're doing on Brock Wagner, and in it, he talks about lots of different things that happened in the ball python hobby because he started in like 1999, I think it was. So, he's been here through the entire thing. And with that, um, he talked about bananas. And when he produced the first season, he produced bananas. They didn't know about the sex link thing. He had a female, he had a female banana, and he had a female maker banana, but he didn't know it was a female maker banana at the time. And he made like a hundred bananas.

Let me stop here really quick because some people already know this story or know the general outcome. Those of you that don't, if you think you've seen market swings, you ain't seen nothing until you hear about what was going on from like '99 to what, '09. Go ahead. You, you finish the story. Go ahead.

I would have, I, I can't believe we didn't hear people taking, I mean, that's horrible to say, but like, literally taking their lives from some of these swamps. Go ahead.

So, um, he told us about the first season that he produced bananas. He made about a hundred bananas. And of those 100 bananas, he had four males. Four. That's it. He didn't know why. He didn't know what was going on. He's just like, "I have four males." And he thought at the time that male bananas were incredibly rare. That they were, it wasn't a sex link thing. It's just like, 95% of the time, all bananas are female, is what he thought. So, because he had four, he held one back and he's like, "The price is $60,000. That's it. I'm not budging on it. It's $60,000. They're so rare." And he sold all three of those bananas for $60,000. But if you think about it, those three bananas, they were from a female maker male, which meant that those three bananas were male makers. So, when those three bananas got up to size and bred, and then all of their bananas were males, it caused a market, just straight up banana crash. That was the, um, panic because now what they thought was bananas, 95% of the time are females. Now it's entire clutches of bananas are males, and it drastically, it just obliterated the price of them over a year because the supply of the banana males was exponentially increased.

Um, so, well, the coin, the coin flipped, they, because then that's all that they were that they were producing and, um, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead.

So, with this, Brock experienced the situation of selling bananas, single dream bananas for $60,000, selling banana females for $30,000. Doing this over a hundred snakes in a season, and now he's at a point where he gets $200 for a banana if he sells a banana. Not that he really produces a whole lot of bananas. So, in this situation, not messing with that. Brock's not doing it at the point, like at this point, because it's so, it's amazing money, especially compared to what he's used to. He's doing it because he loves the animals and he keeps wants to breed the animals. He wants to work with the animals. I think that people who've been in for 20 plus years, they're in this kind of situation where if they're still doing it now, they do it because they like it, but they just look back on how it was 15 years ago and they're like, "This is nothing."

Right? Like, so I think that this means that the people who've been doing it for 20 plus years are in a much closer position where they're kind of like, "Yeah, it's fun. I like it." But if it gets to be too much work compared to what they're getting out of it, that they're more likely to be like, "I'm just going to do this as a hobby. I've already gotten what I wanted out of this hobby. I don't need to do more. I don't need to like work essentially their butt off in order to market themselves, market a brand, and do all this stuff to sell an animal that is a fraction of what they used to get for it." So, I don't think that those people are in the best position. Not that I think that they're going to go away, but I think that they know what the hobby used to be like and they have that kind of bias against them or working against their own perception of it.

Right? Um, I think that the brand new people who are super, super excited and super motivated on it, I think that oftentimes what happens, and this happened with us, it happened with a lot of people we got in with, you are, I, I believe Troy from Balls and Strikes have like coined it, "morph drunk," and he talks about it where you're just buying every single snake that you want. But it goes into more than that. You're so excited about it that you are every single second of every single day, you are living, breathing, and eating reptiles. And that does fade at a certain point. That doesn't mean that people don't love the reptiles. But at a certain point, you're like, "Oh, well, actually, I do have other hobbies. I do have." And I think that if people aren't careful when they very first get in, they overextend themselves. They burn themselves out, and then they end up getting out of the hobby altogether because they haven't gotten to the point where they see a return. I think you gotta have a little bit of a balance in there.

Yeah. And that's, you and I have tussled, uh, over that point for a long time of where that sweet spot is, which is of course different for every person. But I think we both thought it was important to make sure that we were cognizant of not burning ourselves out. Um, and really, both of us, we, in our different ways, we focused on cash flow along the way. And, uh, I think that that's an important kind of metric as well, because, yeah, you and you can almost see it coming with some of the people. They just, I mean, you see it in their media, you see it in their buying, you see it in their, their bragging or their conversation, or when you meet them at a show. And then, and it was so weird because I used to hear people say it all the time and I was like, "This isn't that common," or "These people are just being patronizing old-timers." And I'm like, "No, you see it all the time. Just these rocket ships take off and it's like, it's like a weird firework that goes up and then just shoots straight into the ground." And yeah, people got to pace themselves a little bit, man. And I, I remember people telling me to pace myself and resenting it. So, I'm not saying don't be passionate about what you're doing. Just, just think about what you can handle and making sure that you don't get yourself too far and over your head kind of deal.

I guess the best way I could put it.

Yeah. Yeah. And again, none of this is like negative. It's just kind of what I see. Like, it's like pros and cons of different areas. I think that in my opinion, this isn't so much about the time that somebody's in. I think that the people who are best positioned for the future have, in some way, for their business, a unique selling position. So, if you're going for the people who've been in for 20 years, oftentimes their unique selling position is that they make animals that are at the leading edge and are better than anybody else can make for whatever project they're working. And that's what makes them unique is because they're the top of that project. So, people want to buy from them if they want to get in that project because they want to get towards that leading edge. So that's why, I think that when it comes to newer people, it is much more common for newer people to find new audiences, find new ways to sell their reptiles versus people who've been in for 10, 15, 20 years because those people already have it in their mind what works for them. And these newer people.

Oh, go ahead. Go ahead.

The one, and this is not a knock on anybody. This is just because I have some really, really great mentors and people that have absolutely, I literally couldn't be here without their help and support and guidance, but sometimes I feel like they've stopped innovating or stopped feeling the drive to innovate or the need to. And by innovating, I mean just finding new customers, just finding new ways to sell. And when that happens, somebody's going to come, what's the corporate term, you know, come eat your lunch or whatever, you know, whatever saying you want to use. Um, how do you combat, how do you, like, even now, Stephen, at at the time frame that we've been in, at this five-year mark, so to speak, nice round number. How do you combat that? How do you, uh, think of, uh, or or does that, is that something you think of?

Yes, all the time. All the time. And I'll, I'll explain because I do have a whole little notes section on that specific thing, like how do we keep the, how do we keep ourselves unique? How do we keep attention from the audience? How do we capture it?

Um, so I do want to, uh, add one thing on the group of people who have their unique selling position. So, you can do it with your animals. You can make better animals than anybody else has, and that can make you unique. You can do it from finding a new avenue to sell. So, let's say that in the past, we as a hobby know that Tinley Park and ARBC has historically been the best place to sell ball pythons. Whether it's high-end, whether it's pet, doesn't really matter. Just that's where a lot of the buyers were. But if you're brand new and you're like, "Well, Tinley Park and ARBC isn't letting any ball python breeders get into it, so that's not even an option for me." It forces those new people to find a new way. And when those.

Yeah. When those new people find a new way and their new way works really, really well, like I'm going to go ahead and shout it out, bias, but Southeast Reptile Expo, amazing show, incredible show. When we were at, um, the February Southeast Reptile Expo, we were vending. Winston Smith of WHS Reptiles was with us. And at the show, in cash, this is the first time I've ever seen it happen, in cash, he sold a $25,000 snake at the show. So, it's like, "Oh, that stuff can happen at Southeast." Okay, there's another alternative to Tinley is like that kind of thing. So, I think that when you are new and you are forced to find some new place, some new avenue in order to be competitive, it brings about new things. And when those things really take off, now everybody wants to shift over to that. But if you were able to get in early, that's what makes it really, really exciting. So, those are like two different kind of things on unique selling positions. And again, there's lots of different stuff. You can do it in your marketing. You can do it in your animals. You can do it on the shows that you vend. You can do it on the connections that you make. But being different than what everybody else is doing when you are in the marketplace, I think is critical. And it's those people who are different, and they are unique, and they are original. Those are the people who are going to do the best.

I agree. I haven't been to Siri, and that's no knock on Siri. I just, I, I don't have any frame of reference. Obviously, I believe Bob knows exactly what he's doing. I think to, to even take that farther, uh, and I've talked about it a lot, but I think diversification, both in where you sell or trying to, it's not exactly like timing a market, but trying to pick where it makes sense to sell certain things and so that you can get the best bang for your, you know, your buck or your best return opportunities by selling to the right marketplace. Uh, again, I'll use plain pides on auction on Morph Market probably aren't going to do you very well. You go to a neighborhood local show with your clutch of pides that you haven't been able to sell anywhere else in person, I bet you can make actually a pretty good afternoon worth of work. And that's an extreme example, but there's different, you know, there's they're selling on Morph Market, on Instagram, at Tinley, at local shows, at Siri, they're selling on Palm Street. There's a place in a niche if if people will study, um, sort of who's buying where. I think that there's a way to maximize, um, opportunity in those places and to you, I mean, selling in an auction is different than selling, uh, uh, something just posted at a retail price. It's different marketing. It's different, um, um, it's just different opportunities. So, I think I, I really think staying diversified and and how you sell and where you sell is as important as some of the other diversification theories in my opinion as well.

And, uh, lots of people are shouting out Siri, uh, Kate and Bill, Brandon. Again, if you guys are in the Atlanta area, area on August 9th and 10th, definitely head out to the Southeast Reptile Expo. It is an amazing show. It's super fun. I can't wait. We are also going to be doing for the first time, we're going to be trying it out. We're going to figure out if it works or not, but we're going to try to do like a breeder competition. So, the way that'll work is that breeders can enter their animals into this competition. There'll be three different judges, kind of like the 15 minutes of lame, where they rate all of the different animals and the public can vote on the animal that they like the most. And the highest scoring animal from each category will win a ribbon, with the top reptile in the entire show will win a trophy. So, we're excited about that and see how that works just for making people excited.

Let me ask you this because, uh, when, uh, Mark Mandic was on the show, he didn't talk about, he talked about sort of the, uh, uh, almost the dog show or the pedigree model.

Um, but something I've always wondered and, and I thought about it, not that I, I do not care to get into that arena. I maybe submit animals, but not be a judge, or I'm not the guy to lead a charge in this area. Okay, that's not me. But, um, will you label what the genetics are, or will you have a category with no label, no genetics? Like, how's that going to, because I could see value in both. But what really gets me going is when I see an animal and I have no idea what it is, and I'm guessing, and I'm guessing, but I'm just going, "That is blanking cool." You know what I mean? That, that's really the heart of, of to me, that's the heart of what this all should be about. But that's a biased question now. Uh, so give us the, uh, give us the overview of the structure.

Yeah. So, to start off again, it's a trial. We're trying to keep it small to make it manageable. But we're going to have three different categories. One of them is going to be best recessive ball python. And the only criteria on that is they have to have at least one visual recessive morph. Doesn't matter what their other genes are. One visual recessive morph. Best non-recessive ball python, and that is, it cannot visually show any recessive morphs, but they could be hits or something like that. And then lastly is best gecko. Then what happens is, let's say that there are 20 animals that are entered, entered into the best recessive category. The judges are going to go through and they're going to look at all of the animals and they have a five-point rating, and they could give like 4.3 or something if they want, but it's one through five. And what they do is that they look at an animal and they're like, "This animal compared to all of the other animals in front of me is about average. It's right in the middle of them. I'm going to give it a score of a three." They look at the next animal like this.

Okay. So, they're relative. So, we're on a curve, basically. Okay. We're curve scoring here. Yep. All right.

So, this animal, the second animal, of all of the animals here, this is one of the best in the show. I'm going to give this like a 4.9. It's one of the best ones in this group. This next one, it might look beautiful, but compared to everything else, it's just my least favorite. It gets a score of a one. And they go through and each individual judge, there's three judges, will score the animals like this. The public will also be able to go in and that they can scan a QR code and they can do the exact same things themselves and they can vote and rate any animal that they want. The end of the competition is going to go, each of the three different judge score and the cumulative average of all of the public scores for each animal are going to be averaged together, and then that is the final score of the animal. And then whatever animal in each category with the highest score wins. So, there'll be one winner for best recessive, one winner for best non-recessive, one winner for best gecko. And then the whatever animal has the highest score overall, regardless of its category, wins best reptile of the show.

I like it. And we just talked about like unique selling points, uh, setting yourself apart from what everybody else is doing. I think that applies in shows, too. I think this is a cool, um, I think it's a cool innovation, and it's the closest thing. And now, some people have been around way longer than me, so they'll think 19 people will think of 19 different examples. Do you remember, and he still got it, and he actually bred this pie? Do you remember like three, four, five years ago, there was a pied ball python that was getting freckles like crazy? Nobody had ever seen. Jake Tainer, or Trainer, I think, uh, owns that animal. And I, I don't know why he's nice enough, he he keeps in touch with me. He like he keeps it, he gives me updates on this animal, which is really cool because I want to see what happens with it. But that was like the closest I'd seen to people who wanted like a pedigree animal versus just, I say just, um, I know that there's different lines and, you know, uh, Barnhart, um, is a great example of different lines. Um, but anyway, do you think it'll start like a, a pedigree selective breeding, line breeding kind of mentality, or or potentially could?

I don't know because I don't know if it will catch on, but I think it would be super cool. So, to go on that kind of realm, so RGI is one of the sponsors of the showcase as well as Morph Market is one of the sponsors of the showcase. So, one of the things that we've talked about is that if, let's say that you enter an animal and it wins, it wins best non-recessive ball python of the fall 2025 rep, uh, Southeast Reptile Showcase, you can take the shed of that animal or a scale clipping of that animal and you can give it to RGI at the, like, if it's just at the show, and what they can do is they can genetically register the animal. So, it's like this specific genome for this specific animal is the award-winning animal. And then what can happen is that in the future, if you produce babies from that animal, you can say, "This is a direct offspring of the award-winning animal." And then anybody sends in a shed for those babies to RGI, they can confirm like, "Yes, this is a direct offspring of the award-winning animal." So, that kind of helps create the pedigree. On the Morph Market side, again, we're, this is super early on. We're trying it right now. We've briefly discussed this with Darien, but this is not something that's going to happen anytime soon, and it may not happen at all because of development costs. But I think that it would be super, super cool if, let's say that you win best non-recessive ball python of the fall 2025 Southeast Reptile Expo, that there might be a little badge that can go on the animal's listing in Morph Market to indicate that it is an award-winning animal, or if they go in and they send in the sheds that it's from the lineage of an award-winning animal.

Then it's not, it's not about the idea that somebody just makes up their own line. It is like, "No, this is an award-winning animal." It is exactly what happens in dog shows. It is exactly what happens in cat shows. It is in every other animal species except for ball pythons right now because ball pythons are so for focused on the Mendelian genetics.

Well, and also, it's, we're just the wild west. We're just a free-for-all. We're, we're naming combos. We're naming genes. They're already named. Screw it. We'll name it what we want to name it. Like, we need something. And I actually, I think that's a great, I like the idea, and it is a proven concept in every other sane animal marketplace, like it, it is, it is, um, it is out there. Uh, snake loop reptiles, somebody will answer that for you. If you don't get a good answer, message me, uh, directly. The answer though is that there's 50 different laws in 50 states, and then there's municipalities and cities. So, you got to do your local research. But I can help you with some of that. If you don't get a good answer, just message me later on that. It's far too big to get into right now.

Um, okay. So, this is, this is cool. This is a cool angle. I like it. Um, uh, who are, who are the judges going to be?

I know who two of the judges are. I don't, we don't have the third one finalized yet, but I don't know if I can publicly say it because we don't want people trying to bias them beforehand.

Sure. And that's probably better. I'll let you know personally off the air.

Well, because I'm going to ask, I'm going to ask this follow-up question. By the grace of what power invested in who are they, the judges to decide this? Now, I realize that the crowd is the, is is has is a big part of it, and I hope you know that I mean that tongue in cheek. But also, who are we choosing the, who, who are we bestowing this blessing on? You know,

philosophically, not not individuals, just philosophically speaking. Yeah. Philosophically, our kind of criteria for judges, because the judges do comprise 75% of the score of each animal. We wanted people who were well-respected and knowledgeable in the reptile hobby. We tend to want people who are not vending at the show, but are going to be at the show in person, because if you're a judge, you can't enter animals into it. So, we don't want to have somebody be a judge and then they sacrifice it. And with that, we don't want a conflict of interest. We don't want anybody thinking that the judge voted good for themselves or that the other judges voted good for them or something like that. So, essentially, the rule is judges can't enter their own animals. So, we try to get people who are well-respected, well-regarded, experienced, and knowledgeable in the reptile hobby, and they're going to be at the Southeast Reptile Expo. So, we have two right now for sure. I think Darien has to pick the third one, and I don't know who he's picked yet.

Okay, fair enough. And thanks for humoring me. Like I say, I'm not looking to, I don't know.

I'll let you know. Yeah, I'll let you know.

Well, and it's better that I don't know and that that I didn't have no idea who it is when I asked that follow-up question because I'm sure it would make some, Lord knows somebody feel some way, secret. Yeah, it's not a tight secret. There are some people who know, but it's just, we don't want people getting mad at the judges. We don't want people trying to bias the judges. Like, being the judge just in the 15 minutes of lame contest is stressful. People get very upset when it comes to the 15 minutes of lame. So, I get it.

That's like part of the, that's part of the stick of the, the 15 minutes of lame is never mind. It's, those are two very different worlds there. So, yeah, that's, uh, I get the, I get the point, and that's well thought out. It's well, obviously people have, um, put a lot of thought into that, and, uh, I'm excited to, I'm excited to see what comes of it. Um, how do I put this? I don't like elitism and snobbery, but I also don't like that there's just no guardrails on anything. I mean, I know it sounded like I was joking, but literally people start saying that they have their own line of something, or it's a new thing of this, or we're going to do this. And it's almost like, um, it's somewhere between like when it's done right, mafioso stuff, and when it's done bad, it's like a kid's fort club in the woods where they're like, you know what I mean? Like, it's just, it's, and it's everywhere in between. And, um, I talk a lot about the outward perception of our hobby industry world, and the more, not the more, when we can point to things that there is order, there is structure, there is sort of a, I don't necessarily want a governing body, the last thing I need are gatekeepers, but some sort of agreed upon standards, and pedigree and genetics are a really good place to start because those can be scientifically agreed upon of exactly what things are and what they should be. So, um, anyway, I like the idea. I'm excited, and it's exciting. It's something new. This is a, this is a new, new organizational idea.

Yeah. One, one more plug for it. So, right now, we, the people who are kind of like involved, like, um, Kate and Bill from Heart of the Pythons, they're the ones who originally approached us with the idea, as well as John from Inqualine years ago, he had mentioned it to us as well. John's been cooking that for. You're right. He's been cooking that for years. I forgot about that. You're exactly right, man. Yeah.

So, with that, it has been primarily, um, Bob and Mary of the Southeast Reptile Expo, um, Darien of Morph Market, Ben and Sean of RGI, and then Courtney and I here at Leviathan who are kind of doing it. But none of us really, we, if it takes off, it is not something that we feel like should be tied to any one person where it's like, "Oh yeah, this is Bob's breeder expo, uh, competition kind of thing," or that this is the RGI thing that they do. So, instead, if it takes off, if the trial goes well, and there's a lot of interest, and it doesn't make us all want to, um, jump off a bridge, um, what we likely are going to do is we are going to have a, some kind of loosey-goosey like organization that we're tentatively calling the Reptile Showcase Association, where anybody who wants to join can join, and that we'll have meetings where we can have like, "All right, we're considering adding in a new category. Let's get different proposals like, who, what category should we enter? What are the rules?" And then, as well as if people are members of the Reptile Showcase Association, that maybe there is a show in California that I obviously am not going to be able to put on because I live across the country, but there might be members there who can put on. So, that way we can coordinate with that, and then we also have the support of big organizations like Morph Market, like Rare Genetics Incorporated, like Southeast Reptile Expo to make sure that it's done well, not just kind of like a hodgepodge. So, that's, again, right now, this is a trial. We're gonna see how it goes. But yeah.

And then eventually, if it goes down the road where it really takes off, there can be like elections so that way there could be like president of it, and then we don't have to be the ones to do it every time, and we could finally enter animals because we can't enter animals right now. Um, man, I like it. I have lots of questions. Um, but I think some of, like say, is a work in progress. See where it goes. Um, good for you. Good for pushing it. And, uh, I've said it many times publicly, if you specifically, you personally get your head and mind set on something, you damn sure see it through. So, um, I, I know that you will, uh, at least see through the exploratory part, and I have no doubt it'll be great. So, congratulations getting that started. When, and that, that show is in August. I know you said earlier, is it, it's August show.

Very cool.

August, August 9th and 10th. So, if you guys are there, you guys need to come out and vote in the showcase. If you're vending, you need to put in an animal.

Yeah. How many, and I'm sorry. I know I've asked, I said I didn't, I wasn't going to ask all the questions. How many, uh, entrance, or what's the process for entry? Do they have to get in touch with you beforehand? It's at the show. What do you do?

Kind of both. So, right now, we do have, if you go to reptileshowcase.net, is the website for it. This is where the public can vote, and at the very bottom of the page, there's a registration form. So, there are people who have signed up so far to register animals. That way, we already know, and it's going to be kind of a first come, first-serve basis. We have five different displays that Morph Market bought, and that we're going to have for it. So, if all five displays get filled up with animals, anybody who enters after that, be like, "Hey, I'm sorry." So, if you want to make sure that you can get in, go ahead and register ahead of time. But what will end up happening is at the Friday show, we'll go around and we'll ask people like, "Hey, we're doing the showcase. I don't know if you guys have heard about it. Here's a quick little pitch. Do you have an animal you want to enter?" And if they want to, they can sign up and register it right then and there, and then we can just put the animal in the showcase location.

Yeah. And people would want to pre-register because if it's a showcase pedigree worthy animal, maybe it's a holdback that they wouldn't normally bring to the show versus something that's already in their cases where they're like, "Well,"

Yeah, but I want to sell that instead of, you know what I mean? So, like, yeah, pre-register people. Get in touch with, uh, get in touch with Stephen. Uh, reptileshowcase.net. That was the, the name.

Okay. Yep.

Cool. And somebody can make a reel and repost it on Instagram, all that we just said, you know what I mean? Um, let me see. Uh, we got to put a stopping point right there. I got to, we've paid a lot of bills, and I got to say thank you to a couple people, but there's also other people that are paying bills. I got to take care of them, too. And they are people that support the hobby. Uh, audience, don't go anywhere. Stephen and I are going to jump into, um, where is, with all that we've talked about, where is the opportunity going forward in ball pythons, or is there opportunity? Are we dumb if we think that there's opportunity? We'll get to that in, uh, just one moment. Uh, bam. I use Redline Shipping, and I think that you should as well for the customer service, the service aspect. I think that it is worth, um, the cost that goes with it, the security that goes with it, the team that supports you, uh, from your equipment to start with, or your supplies, your knowledge, when to ship, uh, temperatures, and all of that. You've got a great team on your side in Redline. Use the promo code proper five for your next, uh, shipping label. Get yourself five bucks off of your next shipping label. Uh, I also use shedtesting.com. That is Charlie Williams. Um, he went from, uh, Grey Rider Reptiles to shedtesting.com. Over 40 shed tests currently available, and the latest live ones are Lace, Monarch, Hurricane, and Monsoon. There's over, uh, like I say, 40 total, including VPI Anthic, Wookie, Sunset, Clown, Puzzle, Ultramel, Zebra, and the complete yellow belly complex. You can go to sheddtesting.com to see the full list available. Quick turnaround times and great service directly from Charlie himself. Use the promo code proper 15. You get yourself $15, not excuse me, start over. Proper 15, get yourself 15% off of two orders of shed tests, and you can order as many individual, uh, tests as you want per order. So, you get to do that twice. Go check them out. Uh, another Charlie, that's, uh, Charlie Orion at Reagan Renee Royal Pythons. He's worked at the Krypton, DG G-Stripe, Candy Pi, and Clown projects. All overlapping, uh, all in very, very well done, uh, environment. Charlie is the reigning current and undefeated, uh, 15 minutes of lame champion, and he's one of the few people along with Stephen, as a matter of fact, that I've ever handed over the mic to to take over the show for me if I have to go on vacation or get out of town. Uh, go check out Charlie's Morph Market. Go see what he's got going on. He's one of the smartest, most insightful minds in the industry. Uh, from just a science and operations standpoint, it's what he's professionally trained to do. So, Danny and Renee Roachcha, I, they make some of the most beautiful animals. Like, I, I mentioned earlier, like sometimes you don't need an explanation. You don't need to know what genes are there, and you just want to look at their animals and you see how amazing they are. And that's the best way I can, um, uh, describe the Portuguese Pythons inventory. Go check out the Morph Market. Uh, strong influence from, uh, Ultramel projects. All of my Ultramel Pi projects are from them. Um, and the ones that isn't, I bred to one of their Ultramel Pides that I got from them, uh, this year. So, I'm not only an advertiser, but I'm also a fan. They're working Ultramel and Puzzle, Ultramel and Clown, Ultramel and Pod, and Ultramel and Ghost and True Ghost projects as well. So, go check those out. They're doing great stuff with really dark non-recessive genes in Ultramel, and then even some of the blue-eyed lucistic complex, which is turning the Ultramel is just electric. So, uh, do yourself a favor, go check them out. Um, Sundog Serpents are Sarah and Josh from Orlando. Um, much like Stephen, I've known Sarah and Josh for a long, long time. Done business with them, vended with them back on the Florida circuit. These are good folks. If you believe in the whole birds of a feather, and like, I'm not a great bird, but I'm an okay bird, but they're really great, and I, I hang out with them. Um, they are your TSK Anthic people. They've got TSK Anthic Clown project ingredients working, uh, as well as some other cool species like Euromastics, or Blood Pythons, and they are working also the Asphalts and Super Asphalts in the yellow belly complex. So, I went the super gravel route. They've gone the super asphalt route. Last but not least is Chris at BNS Reptilia Snake Loop. I think you saw, but Chris is who I'm recommending if you have questions for Pennsylvania. He'll definitely get you taken care of and the surrounding states. I'm sure he'll know about. Chris at BNS Reptilia. Uh, one of the original, I think the original, not one of, I think the original advertising partner at, uh, Proper Royals Live. All these years later, here we are still working together. He's my vending partner at Tinley in October. He'll be there with me. And we've made a couple investments together as well, which I'm, uh, happy and proud to say that I'm working with somebody at that level. Chris is Reptilia because he is working with ball pythons, blood pythons, locality boas, colubrids of all shapes and sizes, including the pitu pichuous, bullsnakes, and pine snakes. He'll have those at Tinley. And he'll also have the right education of whether you can have them in your state, whether you need special permits or paperwork. And he will have the proper permits for himself to bring those to Tinley. So, it's all on the up and up. Chris is also the regional distributor of the Chipper Cocoa there in Pennsylvania. So, see him for your cocoa needs, as well as if you're interested in becoming your own regional distributor, you can get in touch with Chris about that as well. Thank you all. Uh, thank you audience. Thank you to the advertisers. These are the people in our industry supporting our industry. And like I said, all Proper Royals Live, uh, content is now coming to you ad-free. And my goodness, uh, boom, Keeper Cane, Creative Genetics, Miss Keeper, more from the household, Heart of the Python, and, uh, man, William at TJW Exotics, William Filipec, thank you so, so much all of you. Uh, what a generous show tonight. Thank you. We got a couple, uh, cool topics to, uh, take you home on. We are not done by a long shot. Um, there was just a lot of thank yous tonight that I had to get into place. So, um, here we go. Stephen, where is, with all that we've talked about, where is the opportunity going forward in ball pythons, or is there opportunity? Are we dumb if we think that there's opportunity?

Okay, I'm going to give a very, very short answer, and then we can like elaborate on it for 20 years if you want. Um, so, in one word, the answer to all of the opportunity in the future is attention. It is how are you going to get the attention of the people that you want? And there's lots of ways you can do this, but let's talk about it just from the snakes right now. So, right now in the ball python breeding world, everybody is working on multi-recessive projects. And multi-recessive projects are really hard. They make beautiful animals. They are great ways. And that's a, a huge focus of our collection. But at a certain point, it's going to get to the point where it's like, yeah, there's another triple recessive that's been hit. There's another quad recessive that's been hit. And it's not attention-grabbing anymore. So, in addition, when you're trying to get people to buy your specific triple project or your specific quad project, you're competing against every other triple project and every other quad project as well. So, you have to find a way to grab the attention of people who haven't made that decision yet and win them to your side. This is not impossible, but it's really, really difficult. And when it comes to snakes, I think that the future is actually going to come from, and I'm going to do this loosely because there's a huge risk. There's a lot of danger on this. I think it's going to come from dinker genes. I think it's going to be the people who are able to genuinely prove out brand new mutations that nobody else can make, and they are completely different than everything on the market. They look amazing, and that's what grabs the attention because the attention now isn't that Justin hit another quad combo. The attention is, "Did you see the brand new gene that Justin's working with?" And that's why Cosmos has so much hype. That's why Bambino has so much hype. I don't know if you're aware of it, but there's a morph called Malice that, um, I'm super sorry, I'm forgetting the person who did does it, but I know that Reggie of Reggie's Urban Jungle and Levance of Straight F or, yeah, Straight Fire are both in that project. Beautiful morph, but they're brand new morphs that have come out into the market. And I think that that, when it comes to the snakes, that's where the high-end's going to be because that stuff catches attention. Not saying that a Sunset Ultramel Clown won't catch attention because it will. It's going to be a beautiful animal. It's going to be really difficult, but the majority of the attention is going.

To be, yes. Morphinded Ash. Yes, that's right, Chris. Yes. Um, so it's going to be stuff like that. Brand new genes that are completely different than anything on the market. Not a brand new gene that maybe is pretty similar to something that already exists, but it might be different, it might not. I mean, it has to be a brand new gene. And people are immediately like, "Yeah, there's nothing like that." Those are the things that I think that from Snakewise that I think will grab the attention and that's where a huge portion of the future opportunity is.

Okay, let me ask this and also push back a little bit. If we take all the genes that have been isolated and identified, which is really quite a lot in the animal kingdom, however, I don't know what's an easy number, 300, 250, somewhere in there. That can't be the standard for the only opportunity, like for the opportunity in the hobby or the industry. So, true. Oh, yeah. I'm not saying that's the only one. That's not the only one. That's just the one I think if you can get that, that's the biggest opportunity.

I get it. But I wouldn't want to tell somebody like, "Oh, you want to go into science? Well, just get a rocket to Pluto. You're going to be famous." Well, yeah. Okay. Thank you. Like we, uh, okay. How about one tier under that? How about sustainable, um, is there a sustainable business, like a standalone business model? Or, uh, really, one of the things that I'm working towards asking is sort of where in the hierarchy or practicality is like, almost like, does somebody, or will most people need, basically a side hustle to the side hustle? Will they need to do, um, media? Will they need to do, uh, rodents? Will they need to import equipment? Or do you think there's opportunity for straight snake business? And maybe it's a better fit for different personalities or different people. I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?

Yeah. So, this is getting in a little bit. It's still dealing with attention, but just different opportunities. So, there are, in my opinion, five different ways that somebody can outcompete somebody else. One is that they do it better. Um, so that's one. Whatever they're trying to do, and this doesn't have to be the super high-end. This could be my target customer are pet keepers. They're the people who want to buy $300 snakes and less, and they want pretty snakes that eat frozen thaw, that are well-handled, that are adjusted for large terrariums that pet keepers like to keep them in. And I am going to set my brand up to be the best, better than anybody else to serve this specific market. There's opportunity there. Um, you can also do it where I was talking earlier about doing something that's original, new, something that hasn't been done before. That's the new genes. You can do it where it is significantly more difficult than anybody else can do. This would be like those really, really high-end multi-recessive projects. You can do something that is more relatable to your target customer. And this one's seen more in social media. So, the way I describe this is if you do a lot of your content where whenever somebody sees it, they're like, "Yes, finally somebody said it. He's like me. He's telling it like it is." That can work. And then the last one is more convenient. The person just makes it so easy, easier than anybody else they've ever worked with. They're like, "I'm going to go to them because they just make it so easy for me." I think any of these different five categories or a combination of them have plenty of opportunities in it. Even if it's not like the top of the ball python pyramid, if you want to talk about it.

You need to put those five points of light and like a real, or even like, uh, do you ever see that guy? He's like a stoic, like philosopher guy on Instagram, Mark Manson. Like the way that he does his posts, you should do, you should do, you should do a, a five-thing post like that. Anyway, that was fantastic. By the way, guys, you want to get invited on the show seven, eight, nine times, however many times is, do some show prep and you see what happens. Outwork the other people. Do it better than the other people. That's how you get invited back on this show. Right there, man. Right there. That was it. Very good, man. Um, okay. Uh, get the attention. Are there, are there pyramids within like an individual person? Uh, I'm going to sell you the snake. I've got the supplies over here and call me when you need a rodent. Does that make sense? Or is that a too, no? Or, or is it too like, jack-of-all-trades, specialist of none, or, or whatever that expression is?

I think I think it depends on the brand. Like if I were going to make a reptile business around that, where it's, I want to have a holistic approach to my business where it's not just trying to make money from these snakes. I also want to make money from the rodents and maybe I want to make money from dry goods, whether that's like cocoa or enclosures or stuff like that. I would, I would completely, I would completely craft my brand with the pet type customer in mind. And I would probably make it very similar to what Snake Discovery does, where it's less about the genetics. I wouldn't say it's not about the animals, but it's very much more about the experience of keeping the animals rather than breeding. And then when you're doing all of this stuff, you are attracting pet owners who love you so much that they don't view it as a transactional relationship. They want to support you personally. So they keep want to come back when they buy an enclosure for the next reptile. They want to go to you to buy their feeders for that reptile. They want to do all these different things because they're a super fan of you. And any way that they can do to promote you and support you, they're going to take that opportunity. So then you're making your profit margin and your revenue not from just the individual snake purchase, but from everything, the continued relationship over years and years and years with these people.

Yeah. Um, somewhere in, and I can't look, I've always said the re, the resources and the drive that every person have has is unique to them. You, I'll use you as an example. You brought camera skills. You brought marketing skills. You brought a drive that's nearly unmatched. You put those three together, that's a unique brand. Maybe I brought a background in food and beverage, which has razor-thin margins and extremely long, difficult work days. Okay, and maybe I can figure this out and make it make it work in there. Um, I think it takes the certain kind of person that wants to set out, but I have found value in that diversified model where the higher margin of say, rodents pays for the passion project or the big longer-term payoff. Um, or, and I didn't mean to be flippant about discovering genes. Um, but that takes a, that takes an experienced breeder that's going to put in, and a ton of risk. 7 to 10 years. Yeah. For, um, and I'm not trying to poke at you. You, you had a killer looking dinker that turned out to just be a killer looking combo.

So, we don't, we don't fully know yet. We have one more clutch from them. And if this clutch doesn't like for sure be like, yeah, it's a replicatable, then it's be like, yeah, it is what it is. We'll see what happens. But it's due in like two months. I think she just laid.

Yeah. And that's not me, like I say, dumping on anything. It's just an, it's just an explanation of the. And how long ago did you buy that animal? Three years ago, five years ago. Five years ago. Yeah. It was right when we first got in. Yeah. It's a long, it's a long time. And like you say, for an incredibly, it's not necessarily risky because you could get these animals fairly cheap, uh, relatively speaking. Um, but the time that you put in is incredible amount of investment. So, um, anyway, I'm meandering here. What I am saying is there's many ways to drive cash flow and to drive, uh, uh, basically to put gas in the in the tank of of your business and to go after these things. Um, I made a couple notes here. Hang on a second. Oh, one note that I made, Troy's point. There's a ton of genes out there that were just, uh, basically marked, marked off as not cool. And a bunch of other genes have come to light that are marked cool, but maybe even some more ones that have been marked off as not cool that when you put them together, um, I, I'll just, I'll be totally biased and selfish. I, I think McKenzie is going to fall into that project, into that category. I think, uh, McKenzie is going to find the right combo and people, everybody that bought it because they thought they were going to get rich off of a second zebra and then were like, "Oh, never mind. It's not cool." I will say to you, why the hell did you buy it in the first place then? Did it look cool or did it not? Forget what it was called. And I think that there are tons of examples of that and there is a ton of sand in that sandbox to play.

I, I agree. And from just a purely economic perspective, I think that doing something like that, as Blake had said, like kind of the odd genes, the ones that you're talking about that aren't as widely worked, but they are established as a gene. I think that that poses a lot of opportunity with way less risk than trying to establish a brand new morph because what, let's say pastel. Pastel is a beautiful morph and it does a lot of cool things with a lot of cool other morphs. But the biggest problem with pastel isn't that it doesn't work that well with clown. The biggest problem with pastel is everybody already has it. So nobody needs to buy new pastel in order to work a cool pastel project. If a wild combo comes out that you need pastel and other people want to do it, they already got a pastel animal that they can work with.

So, then they don't need to pay a big premium to get it because they already have the pieces of it. So in my opinion, just from that alone, pastel will never have an actual economic resurgence. But let's say that you have a gene like furrow that wasn't really widely worked. It's fairly new. There's some people who've done it, but there have been some wild furrow combos that have been made, just not from super big breeders yet, but I know that Justin's working it because he's put up an animal with it right now. So, I 100% believe that when fur, when he does make some really cool furrow combos and starts putting it up and everybody that he has an audience for is like, damn, how have I not been paying attention to this gene? This is wild. That's what creates the opportunity for an old gene to pop off. There has to be a limited supply, but there has to be cool combos made with it. So, if you can find an animal or you can find a gene that has barely anybody working it, but what you have seen looks amazing, that's how you find it.

Yeah. I, I don't have an, I don't have a perfect example and I won't say exactly who I was speaking to either because I, I never want to speak for somebody else or misrepresent their words. Um, I had made a mahogany clutch, a clown clutch this year that I really loved. I think that mahogany is beautiful and, uh, this person has been a bit of a mentor to me. And so I called him up and I knew that he worked with, with, and actually, I, I didn't know he did. I asked him, I said, "Do you work with Mahogany?" And he was like, "Yeah." I was one of the very first people that worked with it like 25 years ago. I was like, "Oh, okay, good." Uh, could you help me identify these? And he said, and that was one of the things that really put that into mind. And then when Troy mentioned it, I was like, "Oh, yeah. We got to talk about that." He said people just got like, you know, dogs after squirrels instead of focusing on things that were, it's hard to say intrinsically, but widely regarded as cool, but they just moved on because there was something cooler around the corner. And there, like it was funny because he, he regarded Mahogany as like, oh, there's that's not been worked at all. There's so much to do with it. And I'm like, I feel like a lot's been done, but if that guy thinks that there's a hell of a lot more to do with it, I was like, wait a minute. Am I being one of these dogs squirrel thing analogies? And I was like, yeah, there is. There's just so much. And that's one of the beauties of this industry. I think there's still so much, uh, uh, um, opportunity for what hasn't been done. And the math when you start thinking of 200 or 300, 250 or 300 unique genes and the mathematical combinations, it's literally whatever, just infinity minus one is, is damn near what that number is. I mean, it's incredible what's out there. So, um, all right. What about, uh, for you specifically? What do you see in the future? Still full speed ahead, slowing down, or refocus? Where, where are you at? Where you going?

Oh, full, full speed ahead. So Courtney had a couple months ago taken Leviathan full-time. So that was a big, big change, both just in the amount of time that we have to do stuff, but also just like lifestyle stuff because not in like a bad way. Maybe to like somebody who lives in like a high cost of living area, they'd be like, "Oh yeah, your guys' like income's cute." But like combined, given our area, our mortgage, our taxes, mortgage, uh, insurance, all that stuff together is $700 a month. That tells you our cost of living. Okay, we have, we had quite a bit of disposable income that we could buy stupid stuff with. Um, so Courtney taking it full-time cut our income in about half. So with this, it is a little bit of an adjustment on like lifestyle things, but it also gives us the ability to focus more on snakes and content and stuff like that. So I think likely that will end up happening for us is that we will continue scaling our actual animal operation. I would love to get to the point where we are having a hundred clutches a year. We are pairing 60 animals this year. So, if we can get 40 clutches, I'd be stoked, but I don't know if we'll get there. Um,

It's one of, sorry, it's it's one of my favorite things. People used to ask why I would take these jobs in these crazy places. And I'm like, because I'm making a fortune compared to my cost of living, and they were beautiful places. I was like, I'll do it all day long. It's the best life hack ever. Good for you. Congratulations, man. Uh, I cut you off just out of excitement. You, you would like to hit 40 if you can this year.

Yeah. So, uh, scaling the animals themselves. That's part of it because I think that one of our biggest weaknesses as a business is we don't produce enough animals. We very often like, I would honestly, I feel like it's more often than we sell our own animals, we're referring people to others. Like we're referring them to Brock, we're referring them to Brandon. We're referring them to Winston, Brad, uh, Luke and Ryan of Captive Bred. Um, so I think that we need to produce more animals as one of our things. Beyond that, we very much, I very much really enjoy the highly produced, like trying to get it like TV level, like documentary stuff. And I think that we want to keep doing those kind of things and just try to establish ourselves at least in the video space as doing it, at least in the top 1% of everybody in the reptile hobby where whether or not they like our stuff, but they look at it and they're like, "All right, just watching their things between the video, the audio, between all the editing, they are objectively better than 99% of all of the other reptile videos out there." That's what I want to do. And I want to keep establishing that or trying to establish that. Stephen, I'm gonna leave it there. Uh, thank you. Congratulations. Uh, a few wrap-up show notes. I wasn't joking when I said if you want to stand out, if you want to be invited to various places, do your show prep, show up prepared, and treat things as an opportunity to showcase your brand and who you are. Today was a clinic on that, guys. Uh, second, one thing you might not have noticed, Stephen always has very, very specific goals for himself. He and I for several years now, and maybe three or four, have done an annual goals episode. And the specificity of the goals isn't necessarily to, um, succeed or fail at, but it's to tell you exactly how well you're doing and also to give you a guidance. And you do those things great, and I know Courtney's at your side doing it. Um, I appreciate you, man. It was really, really great to catch up and I always look forward to the next time, but thanks for coming. Thanks for all the work you put in and, uh, I, sorry, I know it's weird to just compliment somebody in the third person while they're sitting there, but I really appreciate you and I look up to you and, uh, nice job tonight. Thank you very, very much, man.

Well, thank you. It was a blast. Thank you for having us. And again, anybody who's going to be in Atlanta, air the Atlanta area August 9th and 10th, head out to the Southeast Reptile Expo.

All right, guys. Audience. I'll see you same time, same place next week. Stephen, stick around for just a second. And, uh, thank you all as always. I genuinely, genuinely appreciate you. And good lord, thanks to everybody that threw a little cash in the pot. Thanks. Cheers, guys. Bye.

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