Portfolio Committee on Employment & Labour, 04 September 2025

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] Uh, good morning. Uh, honorable, uh, members.

Uh, good morning. Uh, um, committee support. May I just check recording in progress? Clock. We're scheduled to start at 9. Uh, just to be sure that we have the numbers to start the meeting, but as well as, uh, whether those that need to make presentations are already on the platform.

Yes, chair. H, we have the numbers to can start the meeting. Mr. Malib just called me. He was struggling to to to join in, but I resent him the link. So he should be he should be joining and Mr. Moroto.

Okay. So they are not yet on the platform. H, not yet, chair, but I see I see Mr. Khalipi is is just joining now.

Okay. I'm admitting him now.

All right. Honorable Basson, I see your hand before we start.

Thank you, Chair. Chairperson, if I can request if we give it two minutes. I also had problems to log in. If we can maybe just give it two minutes. Thank you, chairperson.

No, it's fine because we we also do need those that must present to be in, otherwise we have no reasons. But I'm happy that we are all here by 9, especially from the side of the members on whose instance meeting would have been organized. Let's start at 5, uh, on the dot. Thank you.

[Music] [Music] [Music] [Music] [Music]

The time now is 9:05. I'm sure the connectivity challenges have now been addressed and everyone else who needs to be on the platform is now on the platform. Like I said, this is the workshop organized by the committee and I'll just talk to the rules of engagement, uh, on this platform.

Uh, we just need to remember, uh, one, members and all participants on the platform, that we, we mute, uh, our mics. H, the video, uh, camera until at a time when you are to speak, having been recognized by the chair to speak. You then proceed to unmute your mic and switch on your video camera.

It's a situation where you experience connectivity challenges. You'll indicate to the chairperson for permission to switch off your video camera so as to maximize your bandwidth. From time to time, there may be, uh, those who may lose connectivity and you want to reconnect back to the meeting. Just make sure that as you do so, that at all times your your video camera is off and your mic is muted, as mics are sensitive, uh, and therefore could pick up background sounds that, uh, interfere with the meeting.

Um, of course, today we do not, uh, really get to a necessary point of orders as this is, uh, a workshop in the main, without us making a decision. But we'll have to still observe, uh, those rules so that there's no, uh, just order without, uh, going through the chair, uh, for the chair to rule on whether proceed in that way or not, especially on procedural matters. Uh, so let's just make it a point that, uh, it doesn't collapse the workshop on on this platform.

Um, I think having clarified, uh, those rules, just to recap again as a way of, uh, opening up. We'll just, uh, check if, uh, the members, there may be those, uh, that would have, uh, sent in apologies for not being able to be present today. Uh, so that we place that on record, uh, for the future when we get to discuss these matters. Uh, we can make reference to the workshop. Uh, but that if the member wasn't there, at least remember that that was placed on record. Uh, committee support. Do you want to give an indication on apologies received?

Uh, good morning, chairperson, and good morning to all my members, uh, who are on the platform, and also the guests from the department, chair. I only received an apology from honorable Zongula, who saying that he is going to join but a little bit late. He started at a funeral. So that's the only apology that I received, Ch.

Thank you. Thank you. Apology from honorable. That's the one we have on record. Uh, may I just check members if there's any apology, uh, that you would want to place on record, uh, that may have not reached the office? It seems there's none. Uh, so I'll take it that, uh, we have no objection to the apology of honorable, uh, Zungula.

All right. As I open the meeting, let me now officially, uh, welcome you, honorable members, here present. Uh, let me also, uh, recognize, uh, the committee support staff that support, uh, our work. Uh, let me also acknowledge, uh, that on the platform also have, uh, civil society structures. We al I also saw representative from organized labor, Mr. Matthew Parks from Katu. Not sure if there are others on the platform, but you are also, uh, recognized. If I don't, uh, see the, uh, the names, please, uh, uh, pardon me for not seeing that, but all, all, uh, recognized for taking interest in the work of the committee.

Uh, let me also, uh, greet the South Africans who are following, uh, the the work of this committee on the platforms made available by, uh, parliament.

Um, today, uh, we are, uh, meeting as the committee looking at, uh, what would be, uh, bills, uh, that would finally come to the committee, uh, and those that may not be, uh, introduced to parliament as yet. Uh, but this is as a result of a discussion the committee had and agreed upon, uh, that before formal introduction, it would help to get to be workshop, but also get to know, uh, the state of each of the bills. Uh, this will then help us, uh, even in the public discourse, that we can be able to engage knowingly that other matters may not be before the committee, but elsewhere, uh, and that these are the ones that may be before the committee, and this also taking those ones, uh, forward.

I'm making this point because we, we get sometimes to be drawn to matters that are not before, uh, the committee, and sometimes if you make commentary on that, it may, in a way, compromise the standing of the committee. In that, once the matters come before the committee, we must not only say, uh, we are open-minded, we, uh, to listen to comments from the public and so on, uh, but we must be seen to be doing so also in our conduct, uh, in how we react to this, to these matters.

Uh, so in that score, as the program will be flighted, we have invited, uh, those that are in the department who have been handling this, uh, to come before us. Uh, firstly, talk to generally all the, all the bills and what are the possible, uh, amendments and and the state of, or the status of those. And then we will also be again having an opportunity to look at, uh, the employment services amendment bill. Uh, link that with the, uh, national labor migration policy. Uh, and I want to, uh, state this clear, uh, that the understanding is that that is in the purview of the executive, and it would have been done by now. But as we deal with the employment services amendment bill, we should also look at that, at that alignment, so that, uh, there's a reinforcement, uh, instead of one, uh, weakening the position that needs to be taken.

H, of course, like I said, h, would then look at the proposed bills for for noting that score. Uh, in terms of, uh, the program, I take it that it's now flighted, and the approach is to take the one that is to be introduced, if not yet introduced to parliament, because it has been going to and fro, which is the employment services amendment bill. Take a discussion there because it is what would come before the committee. Uh, and thereafter, take the, the proposed, uh, labor laws, uh, uh, bills.

There is a, a mic that is open, and that mic is disrupting the meeting. I'm trying to check who is this member. It was honorable. Yeah, this is a, this is the problem with the visitors. This is the problem with the visitors. Uh, honorable sl to accept that you have visited the committee again. H, but please don't, don't come in in that way. Subject yourself to the rules as we agreed. So please be muted. And I know that your intention is not to disrupt, but just to say that you are noted to be, uh, present, because at the time we're doing that, I'm not sure if you already on the platform. Uh, that's on a lighter note, though.

Uh, honorable members, without really waste of time, uh, will then take, uh, up, uh, the presentations. I take it that all the presenters are now finally on the platform from the department, and I'm sure whoever is to present, uh, on the first two, first two, in that I want us to look at both the employment services amendment bill and the national labor migration policy at once. Uh, not only to save time, but to help the discussion to look at that alignment. Uh, Mr. Malipi, I'm sure you are now on the platform, and Mr. Morotoa from, uh, the department, you then proceed on the basis of how you would have planned to assist the the committee. Maybe let me establish also, just before you come in, so that we don't have that problem, whether members, all of them, would have received the documentation from yourselves. Can I had confirmation, honorable members?

Yes, we did, chair. Yes.

So there's no one who would want to have the document shared only now. So you can then proceed. Uh, Mr. Rotoba, platform is yours.

Um, I've I've looked at the the slides. Uh, honorable members, uh, surely to put that together, shouldn't be the whole day. Um, especially when members would have received the judgments. Uh, when when we get to the 30, 35 minute mark, I will then be indicating that, uh, try to to get to speed towards conclusion. Uh, I'm saying on the first part, because we still have another presentation that will come.

Mr. Please follow. Good morning, honorable chairperson. Good morning to honorable members. Um, share person, I'm on my my picture as a video, and I would no.

We see it's you. You are permitted to to switch off. So you did not render robot to come and, uh, talk to us. Okay, we see it's you, and therefore this is you. No, permitted process. And Mr. Mura.

No, thank you very much, uh, honorable chairperson, and honorable members of the portfolio committee on employment and labor. Um, just to clarify a number of issues that you indicated, chairperson, and requested that we do up front. Uh, the employment services bill and the national labor migration policy are part of a process that dates back to 2017, and it has gone through the fifth and the sixth administration, and we are now in the seventh administration. That is unfortunately how long it took us. But that is because of the extensive consultations that we had to undertake from the time we drafted a zero draft, a second draft, and did internal consultations within government. We then had to go through the clusters of government. We were told to have bilaterals with various stakeholders, which we did. We then received the various certificates, uh, as per the procedures in government of, uh, developing policies, uh, both from the presidency, socioeconomic impact analysis to check the impact of this policy on the society, but also from the chief state law advisor. Then we were given permission by cabinet to release the policy and the draft bill for public consultation, a process that took about three months, and, uh, it took almost a year to condense and go through all the public comments, about 662 of them, having follow-up meetings with the various people who made submissions, and then we embarked on a long process at Netleck, having amended the bill and the policy, uh, which took us almost another year. We took the report of Nedleck, the amended bill again through the processes of government until we get the secondary certificates, the chief state law advisor. We went to the government last, and again to cabinet, and finally, like you said, chairperson, the policy has concluded its cycle, which is, h, a released by the executive. It will serve as a guide, uh, and gives direction to how we are going to do a number of things, uh, in government. Obviously, it is subject to review when the situation changes within government and in the international environment. However, the policy also, in terms of certain elements that must be, uh, implemented, had to point out to certain legislative instruments that are needed, which is now contained in the bill, uh, which has been certified by the state law advisors, and it is now being presented to yourselves as the lawmakers to take it forward. What ours from now on will be to come in to clarify certain aspects as and when you need us to support you. But finally, we are also looking forward to the product that will emerge from this committee, the National Assembly, the National Council of Provinces, until the president can act as an amendment law that will then allow us to do quite a number of things, uh, in in in government. Uh, let me invite, um, Miss Ma to also fly the the presentation, uh, because I'm going to start going through the presentation, having given that, that background. Uh, honorable chairperson and members of of the committee. So there is a relationship between the policy and the, the, the bill itself. Um, I'm, I wonder if you members can see the presentation. I'm not seeing it on my side.

Yeah, she's not sharing it.

Okay. And while she's sharing it, just additional information worth adding. Uh, the, the white paper on national labor migration policy aligns very well with the white paper, uh, on the review of the immigration act, the refugees act, and the citizenship act. And there are interdependencies, and we are hoping that as you finalize this bill, you'll also follow or interact with, uh, members in the other committee so that that alignment is is is is ensured, and that, uh, we can deal with the problem of, uh, foreign nationals in our country, uh, and and make sure that the way they come in and leave, uh, especially economic migrants for work purposes, uh, does not undermine the rights of South Africans, their their wishes, but also we have aligned with the international treaties, our constitutions, and other laws to ensure that they're protected, but done so orderly and in line with, uh, the conventions, both at international dial, or the SADAK protocols as well. Miss, are you struggling to fly the the presentation? Maybe Mr. Zakasa can assist the honorable chairperson, uh, through you, chair. Miss, just started to be co-host, so she's, uh, trying to, uh, share. She just joined.

Okay, I'll pause for a minute and double check, person and members. Or, uh, honorable chairperson, because members have copies, can I proceed on those basis so that we don't take your time? Uh, Mr. Sakasa, I'm checking with you. Anyone of you can share in the meantime. As I said, we also have South Africans who are following deliberations of the committee, who may not be having that. And remember that they're the same ones who will also be bringing on board to, uh, participate as as the public.

Okay, Ch, let me try from my side. Let me. Where is it now? Is it visible? Ch.

Uh, yes. If you can just put on a, a slide mode.

Yeah, we can see. Roto, you do see, you will indicate which slide to go to, so you can proceed at this point. Why she's trying to put it on, uh, mode to then, yes, then we can proceed.

Thank you very much, uh, honorable chairperson. If you can go back to the first slide. The very first slide, if you can go back.

Yeah, that's the challenge now. Okay. The first slide would be this one. Yes. The the bill, chairperson, and honorable members, is amending a provision. Oh, okay. Okay. Now, thank you very much. The the bill is amending the current act, section 8 and 9, which was seen to be completely inadequate in terms of making sure that the department of employment and labor can play its role in the migration management and to show orderly movement, uh, of people to work in our labor market. The purpose is to, inter alia, promote growth, productivity within the labor market and the economy, and to facilitate work opportunities for work seekers, in particular vulnerable workers. And the act seeks to facilitate the employment of foreign nationals in South Africa in a manner that does not undermine, uh, the South African labor market, the wishes of the people, uh, locally, including the conventions, and to regulate and operate, to regulate and and make sure that the operations of private employment and agencies operating in the space is consistent with our labor laws. As you know that in most cases, human trafficking arises from private employment agencies that recruit people from South Africa to other countries, and from other countries bringing them into South Africa.

Next slide.

Uh, it empowers the minister to make regulations which are going to facilitate the employment of foreign nationals in a manner that does not undermine, uh, the current, uh, uh, laws, like I said, and it will also ensure that we use public employment services or private employment agencies to assist employers to do the recruitment of suitable workers who are South Africans, citizens or permanent residents, and where they have to recruit, uh, foreign nationals. There are certain procedures, uh, that must be followed, and the current definition of foreign nationals in the act includes both asylum seekers and refugees.

Uh, honorable chairperson and members, uh, I'll I will skip slides number, uh, um, three, I mean, four to nine, because in essence, those are definitions that we have, uh, managed to, uh, uh, add. Ju just slide number six, you, you, you, you, you, the, the, the, the, there were a number of adjustments in the form of, um, on slides four, for instance, the question of definitions, uh, that we had to adjust, uh, so that we align with the immigration act that is on slide number four. On slide number five, uh, there were also definitions that we had to adjust, uh, to make sure that we align with the refugees act, but we also create consistency with the immigration act, especially around critical skills. On slide number six, we also made adjustments in terms of definitions to clarify, uh, what a foreign national, uh, means, to exclude persons who have been granted recognitions as refugees in terms of the refugees act, and to insert a definition on labor inspector, uh, to expand the powers of labor inspectors appointed in terms of basic conditions of employment act. As you know that it limited them to the BCA, and now it will expand to cover, uh, the employment services act, and to amend the minister to mean the minister of employment and labor, and to insert a definition on permanent residence to align with the immigration act. On slide number seven, we also amended the definitions, uh, around the private employment agency to include private sector agencies who provide employment services not for gain. The refugees to align with the refugees act. We clarified the sector for the purposes of setting thresholds, and we, uh, we inserted a definition on sectoral determination to align with the basic conditions of employment, and we clarified the definition of South African, uh, covering both citizens and permanent residents. On slide number nine. The definitions, slide number nine, sorry, slide number eight. Okay. We we amended the definition on supported employment enterprises, uh, to remove the requirements for the entity to function as a national government component, as it exists in the current act. And we inserted a definition on the worker to make the scope of the act consistent with the national minimum wage act. And lastly, we amended the the definition of work seeker to cover employees and work seekers, uh, that are South Africans, uh, seeking work abroad as well.

On slide number nine, where we now go into clause by clause, uh, analysis. Uh, this clause two seeks to provide for the regulation of employment of foreign nationals in the South African economy in terms of section 21H, to provide a basis for the introduction of borders in the new chapter. I will talk to that later. There was an insertion of a new clause, 21H1, in the purpose of the act to include, facilitate and regulate employment of foreign nationals in South Africa where their contribution is needed. This was to provide for the scarce and critical skills needs, because there's an acknowledgment of the need, uh, to really attract skills that everyone in the country is competing for, and to ensure a smooth passage. The insertion of section 21H, uh, on, sorry, on the purpose of the act, include that facilitate and regulate the employment of foreign nationals in South Africa where their contribution is needed, and the insertion of 22F, uh, to be achieved, providing a framework to facilitate and regulate employment of foreign nationals in South Africa, uh, the employment of South Africans abroad, and the, the reintegration post posting, uh, in the abroad abroad as the diaspora, and employment of South Africans residing abroad into the South African economy. So the reintegration of the diaspora, and lastly, clause three on slide number 10. Um, the amendment will repeal the current provisions, uh, that are contained in sections 8 and 9, and introduce a completely new chapter that is detailed, uh, in the act to deal with a whole range of aspects that were identified in the policy that were seen as gaps. Obviously, there was a balance to try and strike between an enabling piece of legislation that also makes provision for additional regulations to be made, or in some instances, allowing for codes of good practice, or in some cases, guidelines, so that we don't find ourselves overregulating the labor market, or, uh, taking the time of, uh, this, uh,acious parliament in dealing with the detailed, uh, aspects that would require further research, review, and so on. And some of these aspects, I can attest, were made during the submissions that we received, uh, because people wanted the how before the principle is accepted. And the advice we got was that get the principle accepted, get the objective accepted. And if there's an agreement on the objective and the principles, then we can work on the details. And you don't have to legislate, uh, around some of the issues, because you can use various mechanisms and processes, and in some instances, the courts will assist us in interpretation.

Now, let's go to the new chapter 3A, uh, on slide 11. The new chapter, which is inserted as 3A, would, for instance, uh, insert a new 12A, which will provide for the, for instances under which the employer may employ foreign nationals. Uh, B sets out the requirements that an employer must comply with before employing a foreign national. C, 12A3, sets out the minister, if it is consistent with the purpose of the act, circumstances or conditions under which the minister may determine, make a determination to exclude the requirements to prepare a skills transfer plan. In other words, uh, the circumstances under which the minister may grant exemption, uh, uh, for certain requirements where scarce and critical skills are brought in. And D, provides that a determination in terms of the above, uh, in order to make sure that we don't have a situation where the minister makes these things willy-nilly. Uh, the minister is obliged to do detailed consultations with the employment services board, and to publish in the gazettes, where we can attract, uh, comments, uh, on the gazette, so that the process of exemption is, is very clear, and is understood, is transparent, and is fair.

On slide number 12, uh, a new clause 12B empowers the minister, after consultation with the board, to issue notices, uh, around the maximum quotas for employment of foreign nationals by an employer, in respect of any sector. Secondly, in respect of any occupational category, and thirdly, in respect of a region or area where that notice will apply. Uh, 12C empowers the minister to make regulations concerning the employment of foreign nationals, including making regulations on the procedure for applying for an exemption from any provisions of this chapter. And that, in doing so, uh, the records that employers must keep are, uh, produced, and, and, and, and are kept, and that, uh, the foreign nationals in their employment, uh, align with the, the, the, the permits that they would have been granted, in line with sections A2 and A3 of, of, of the act.

Clause 4, uh, is an insertion, uh, 12C, which empowers the minister to make regulations concerning the employment of foreign nationals, including procedures for applying for exemptions from any provisions of this chapter. Uh, 12D provides that foreign nationals hired in contravention of the South African law are entitled to enforce claims against the employer, which means if an employer has employed a foreign national for years and underpaid them, for instance, there will be a retrospective enforcement of, for instance, the payment of national minimum wage or other applicable requirement. And, and this section, uh, 844, seeks to prevent unscrupulous employers from employing foreign nationals on terms and conditions of employment that are inferior to those provided for by labor legislations and collective agreements. So the labor inspectors and bargaining councils or their agents are now empowered to bring claims on behalf of these workers, documented or undocumented, in the circumstances where these workers are unable, are unable to personally enforce such claims. And remember why, why I'm emphasizing the documented and undocumented. The reason is simply because our laws currently do not distinguish or discriminate against the status of a worker, whether documented or undocumented. So there will be that retrospective, uh, h, um, claims. If the deportations are to happen, then they will also happen, but they will not necessarily exempt from the employer from complying, uh, retrospectively.

Uh, 12E on slide 14, uh, introduces a new section which prohibits employers from requiring foreign nationals from performing work that is not authorized in terms of the foreign national's visa or permit or any statute. In other words, if somebody was brought to work in a mining for a specific area or permit, that cannot be altered. Uh, 12, and then clause five, amendment to section two. Uh, a new DA expands the powers of the employment services board in their role in advising the minister, because this was not initially catered for under the functions of the board, uh, as it exists in the current act. And F enables the board to advise the minister on the publication of annual employment services report, which includes sections on matters, uh, dealt with above, in other words, on migration related.

On slide number 15, the amendment seeks to amend section 23 by substituting paragraph, uh, B with a paragraph expanding the provision for the establishment of committees under the employment services board, uh, so that they can discharge their functions in advising the minister. Uh, clause seven. This amendment enables the supported employment enterprises to operate within the department, as the amendment provides for it to be established as an entity within the department, and no longer as a national government component. This is a requirement, or a, a, a, an additional provision that came in as a result of years of interaction with the National Treasury to sort out the governance of the, uh, supported employment entities.

Uh, clause 8 on slide, uh, 16, uh, is being inserted to empower the supported employment enterprises to perform any other functions of a trading entity, as contemplated in the Public Finance Management Act, and subject to Treasury approval. And a new clause 9, uh, will amend by substituting the provisions of section 44 of the principal act.

On slide number 17, uh, an amendment to section 646 of the act, uh, is being done to place an obligation on the minister to comply with the Public Service Act, in terms of ensuring that, uh, the has got the necessary posts, the structures, and systems and processes to to function, uh, as an entity, after consultation with the minister of finance. And plus 11, section 47, uh, provides the director general with a mandate to ensure that the supported enterprises is administered according to the requirements prescribed by the Public Finance Management Act. Plus 12, section 49, uh, will delay the previous maximum fine. We have had challenges around, uh, people budgeting for fines, and you may have noticed the number of fines in the current act. But this provision deletes the maximum fines that can be imposed by the court, but introduces a new maximum fine that may, on application by the director general of the department, be imposed on an employer by the by the courts for contravening any provisions of those aspects listed in schedule three. Uh, the amendment will provide inspectors appointed by the minister in terms of the DCA to also discharge aspects relating to the immigration or, uh, national labor migration, with a mandate to monitor and enforce compliance with this act, and this clarifies the current legal provision. It also authorizes the Minister of Home Affairs and Employment and Labor to enter into an agreement enabling designated labor inspectors to enforce section 38 of the Immigration Act. Currently, as you may know, honorable members and the members of the public, is that if an immigration inspector is to go to a workplace, they can't discharge those the roles of the inspector. And similarly, if inspectors go to the workplace, they can't discharge those roles of an immigration officer, making it very difficult and providing a loophole for employers, uh, to continue to do, you know, the practices that are, uh, not in line with the act. And the only area or or times that we managed to cap such, uh, loopholes was when we do joint inspections, and we believe that this new provision, uh, once agreed by two ministers, will correct that problem. Uh, section 49A. Uh, we have inserted a section providing that employers, or any employer organization registered in terms of section 96 of the Labor Relations Act, or acting on behalf of a member or private employment agency, with an opportunity to apply for an exemption from a provision of this act. The amendment will also allow the minister to delegate or assign powers or duties in respect of evaluation of exemption applications to an official of the department, in accordance with the provisions of section 85 of the BCA.

Clause, uh, 50, uh, is also amended with a deletion of subsections four and five, which refer to the repeal provisions, and section 51, uh, will add a list of ministerial powers that may not be delegated to the director general. Uh, the minister's powers, for instance, to set quotas in terms of 12B, will be exercised by the minister.

Clause 52 expands the minister's powers to make regulations, uh, on slide number 21, uh, in matters relating to the provisions of, uh, the public employment services and private employment agencies, the criteria and procedure for applying for an exemption, recruitment and placement of persons residing outside of South Africa to work within the territory of South Africa, and the recruitment and placement of persons residing in South Africa to work in other countries.

Section 52 on slide 22 is also amended and continues to introduce measures to promote and regulate the recruitment and reintegration of South Africans residing or working in other countries back into South Africa, and the procedure for work seekers and employers to lodge complaints about operations of employment services, and G, any matter necessary for the establishment and approval of supported employment enterprises, and me, any matters necessary for the administration and operations of, and any matters, any other matter which may or must be prescribed in terms of this act. Uh, clause 17, schedule three of the act. This amendment will add an extra offense for which a fine can be imposed by the labor court, uh, in respect of employers who employ workers in breach of the new provisions, uh, uh, of, of, of the act, and, and it will regulate the employment of foreign nationals, as in section 12A.

Uh, the monitoring and enforcement. This issue became a, a big issue, and, and we suspect that this is still going to be a subject of a debate. We, we had a lengthy discussion at NDLE around, uh, a good thing, uh, on one side of having legislation, but the enforcement, uh, being a challenge, uh, on the other hand. But, uh, we, we have received council that, uh, this note, and, and, and it will be further debated. Uh, like I said, seeks to clarify the position in terms of monitoring and enforcement of the ESSA act, and it will still require some referral between the provisions of the BCA and the immigration act. Um, and we also made this amendment, uh, so that the minister may appoint labor inspectors to monitor ESSA, because initially it was not provided for, uh, and, and the inspectors so appointed may be general, generalist in nature. As you may be aware that the department is in a process of recruiting a whole range of inspectors, and depending on on our discussions with the department of Home Affairs, these inspectors, like OS inspectors, may be specialists, as they are given powers to be able to examine records of migrant workers in the workplace, so as to make sure that, uh, the cases that we take to court, and, and the arrests that are affected, uh, are not dismissed, uh, as a result of following, uh, the, the procedures. And, uh, if we can go on to the next slide.

Uh, we have cited a number of provisions, uh, in terms of, uh, on on slide 25. Um, next slide on enforcing the act, where the various provisions allow.

Can you move to the next slide? Slide number 25.

Yes, where the inspectors appointed to monitor and enforce ESSA will be able to inspect documents that employers are required to keep in terms of ESSA, including all documents reflecting the foreign national is lawful and entitled to be employment, in terms of section 12A, and so on. That, uh, the labor court is empowered to impose fines on employers who breach various provisions, including employing foreign nationals who are not entitled to work, employing foreign nationals in contravention of any quota that may be set in terms of the ESA act, and section 64B, which authorizes the labor inspectors to appear in the CCMA and the labor court in matters arising out of the DCA, the national minimum wage, the UI act, and UI contributions. S, uh, do not apply to proceedings under the ESA act.

Uh, the next slide on departments consulted, slide number 26. Uh, I won't repeat what I said. We have gone through a full cycle, uh, which has gone through cabinet, and we have files of, uh, submissions made. If you go to the, uh, national labor migration policy, at the back, it reflects all the submissions made by the various organizations.

Uh, next slide on 27. Like I, I initially said in my opening, chair, uh, and to collaborate what you said, uh, the journey that this, uh, bill has traveled, uh, in terms of the necessary approval, and we have a detailed implementation plan, and this is part of the requirements of cabinet when you present a law, uh, around how are you going to implement it, funding, did, and so on. Now, most of those aspects will be driven from the policy side, but as the law progresses, there will be a lot of pilots that will be running on the sides. There will be draft regulations, further research that will be doing, further consultations, uh, exchanges with the SAD member states, so that eventually, once, once the law is passed, uh, we don't lose time in terms of its implementation. So a detailed implementation plan, uh, is something that we will be working on parallel to your process within the legislative environment.

On the next slides on implications to provinces. Uh, the labor laws, uh, apply equally across the country. Uh, it will be implemented in provinces. However, directly in terms of provincial legislators, it will not have any effect, as, uh, labor laws are national competence. On the financial implications for state. Uh, this is something that we are continuing to engage with the National Treasury, given the current fiscal constraints. Some aspects, uh, we found ways of implementing them using donor funds. In some instances, we are having to prioritize, but there will be other instances where the National Treasury will have to come in to ensure that we expand our existing capacity to be able to successfully implement this act, and, and to make sure that we achieve its objective. But those are ongoing discussions, uh, that we are undertaking with the Treasury, and they will continue parallel to the legislative process.

On the parliamentary procedures. Uh, on the next slide, uh, ourselves and the state law advisors believe that, uh, this bill can be dealt with with, uh, in accordance with, uh, section 75, constitutional provisions, and, uh, and, uh, those procedures set out, uh, in section 74 and 76. We are of the view that the bill does not necessarily have to go to the National House of Traditional Leaders, and the minister has already, uh, um, written to the chairperson of the National Council of Provinces to alert them to this bill, that it will also be coming to them.

And thank you very much, uh, honorable chairperson, and members, and the public for giving me an opportunity to present this bill. Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr. Roa, DG. Um, the understanding was that, uh, we're clubbing this with the national labor migration policy. Uh, if you want to emphasize points on the labor migration policy. I know as you were presenting, you were also making reference, uh, that the national labor migration policy takes care of this. It's better explained there. Uh, but I'm just, uh, giving time, uh, to a few have points to lift up the before we take up a discussion.

Thank you very much, uh, honorable chairperson, and members again. Um, I will not go through the policy page by page, per se. Um, if we can go to slide number three. Um, like I said, the policy has been, or go to slide number four. The policy has been gazetted, distributed, and it is available in the gazette, and we are more than happy to to distribute and share copies. But this slide comes from Home Affairs, and partly gives, uh, members and the general public the genesis of our problem. On the extreme left, you would see the number of visas that are currently available to allow people to come into our country. In terms of the three acts that we have in Home Affairs, and this slide is from Home Affairs, the Immigration Act, the Refugees Act, and the Citizenship Act. Recently, we have made some additions, or Home Affairs has made additions around the trusted employer scheme, where the tourist companies who meet certain criteria can automatically, uh, issue visas, and there's modernization, uh, to ensure ICT. There's also the 90 days, uh, visas that has been extended to, uh, member states, which means somebody from the foreign country or neighboring countries can be given 90 days, uh, to remain in the country, and, and so on. But the problem that we are sitting with, honorable members, is our ability to make sure that people who come in having obtained those visas stick to the original intention of the visa. They don't overstay. They don't take up employment. And we are able to make sure, like in other countries, make sure that they stick to those, uh, visa, uh, uh, uh, timelines. And there are other impacts in other departments, because if I come in as a tourist and I'm not having, for instance, a medical insurance, and I get sick, I end up in a hospital and cause other problems, uh, in terms of locals and so on. Um, and, and, and the white paper that was published sought to make sure that we review these visas and make sure that there are strict adherence. And that is why cabinet insisted on that white paper to be followed up, because this piece of legislation that we are working on, if some of those things are not corrected, uh, we are not likely to win this, this war. But there's also an extensive abuse of our Refugees Act, in that we have a backlog in the processing of visa, that is, asylum seeker applications, because you have to go through the verification process before a person can be granted, uh, permanent refugee status. Now, where people come in and they are arrested and they claim asylum status, there are challenges around deporting them. And there are lots of cases that you can go to and check where Home Affairs could not succeed in dealing with those, including ourselves. Because when a person is in possession of an asylum seeker document or a refugee permit, they are allowed to work in South Africa, as we don't have camps to confine them in those areas. But there are other visas that come in as a result of the original person being granted a visa. For instance, the spousal visas, the child visa, the business visas, where, uh, inter, uh, um, company visas actually operate, and they have to bring in some expertise, and, uh, you find that that p, that process cannot be, uh, properly regulated. Obviously, there's also another part which has to do with the investment. Those who have money can easily secure citizenship, depending on the amount, and, and so on. And, and we have been working with the security forces here because of the money laundering and, and a number of other areas, but those are not within the department of employment and labor. But this, the net effect is that they impact on the labor market.

Uh, if you can move on to the next slide. This one is just trying to also provide the context. From the 7.6 million migrants in Africa, you'll notice that almost 3 million are in South Africa. We have become the largest num country that is attracting the highest number of migrants in the country. Now, in so far as South Africans working abroad, Stats SA indicates about 900,000, that is, 0.9 million. But we are having a challenge in terms of giving figures on the undocumented migrants. There are some documents when you read, they talk about 3 million, some 5 million, some political parties came with figures in so far as far as 12 million. We don't know how they arrive at those. However, Stats SA puts the figure of both documented, that is documented, or those that they interview, to be around 3 million. But they also concede that in so far as people who overstay and who came illegally, there is a challenge in giving the exact number. And that is why it has an impact in the labor market. Other countries in Africa, we took a sample, you can see. If you take Nigeria, they've got 1.3 million migrants working in Nigeria. They're very strict, but they also have 17 million migrants living and working abroad. And countries in Africa tend to be exporters of labor to other destinations, Europe, South Africa, and so on. And they are very good in protecting the inflow. Um, they limit that to scarce and critical skills where they are required.

Next slide.

Now, the policy interventions that we made, uh, in in the NLMP, which started in in 2017, deals with very, very complex issues. It's not migration is not an easy, it raises emotions and so on. Uh, it, we, we try to strike a balance between South Africans' expectations, uh, by introducing quotas, like all other countries. Even South Africans that are going to work abroad, they will be subjected to quotas of receiving countries. We won't be able to exceed those. But we want to complement also efforts by small business department, because we believe that, uh, the area of small business is a potential area. If you take China, India, where more than 85% of their economy resides in small business and self-employment, that we cannot leave that sector alone, because it has got the potential of employing South Africans. And we also wanted to align with Home Affairs, the three legislation, the white paper, but also we wanted to make sure that in line with international treaties. Migrants, because there are migrants who come into the country under agreements, like bilateral agreements. Those that are diplomats and so on. Migrants who may have come here as part of scarce and critical skills, and their families are protected in line with the constitution of our country and treaties that we have signed, uh, uh, globally, but also we align with the regional integration, the SADAK commitments that our country has made. And we promote the involvement, uh, of, uh, employment of, that is, the promote, we promote the employment of South Africans abroad to alleviate local unemployment levels, especially where we have an oversupply of skills, where we have skills that are required in other countries, uh, like Saudi Arabia. But we make sure that those processes are done in a formal way. We have lots of, uh, South Africans working in Germany, in, uh, Saudi Arabia, in Perth, Australia, in New Zealand, and so on. And unfortunately, currently, those, uh, processes have not been facilitated through proper, uh, bilateral labor agreements to make sure that there is a smooth passage for South Africans to work, uh, in those areas. Ourselves, Home Affairs, and our missions abroad get involved when there are wars, or when there are unfortunate incidences like drug trafficking, arrest, and so on, and we get alerted to this kind of, uh, e, uh, incidences. And the policy tried to also take that on board.

Uh, if you can move to the next slide. I won't go into this in detail, but except to say, we identified in terms of this law and the policy, the constitution of our country. We know that people often.

Say South Africa belongs to all. We live in it, the constitution and the bill of rights. But there are limitations in terms of section 22 on those rights that, um, also, uh, protect citizens. Uh, and that is why this bill had to pass the test, the constitutional, uh, provision, uh, so that, and so that, um, we don't find ourselves doing a law that may not be unconstitutional.

But we looked at the international treaties, the conventions, the AU and SAD protocols, and other laws in South Africa. You can go to the next slide. Um, this is a continuation of all those. But the bottom line is that we had to make sure that anything that we put in a policy which does not meet any of those laws, protocols, and all that, will have to fall out because we can't put things that do not, um, uh, align with those.

Uh, we also, in terms of migration, looked at international trends, the diversifications that are happening. Uh, we also acknowledged the silo approach that was happening in the country. We looked at modern trends and approaches in other countries, especially Saudi Arabia, where they are having a decline in, in, in, in population, especially amongst the elderly and child birth, that they are now embarking on massive recruitment, especially from Africa. Uh, uh, given their projections that, um, uh, by 2030, 2050, they will be in serious need of labor, etc. And we also ensured alignment with Home Affairs and, and, and made sure that we, we ensured alignment with the bill. Next slide.

The rationale, like I said, was to, uh, comply and adapt with the SADC agreements, the labor laws in the country, and to deal with those areas, especially where we never had policy. Uh, everyone agrees that a lot of people who move are economic migrants. Granted, there may be other people who come in as tourists, etc. But the problem arises in economic migrants. And the agreement that goes back to the SAD 2015 was a resolution to have all these policies, and today South Africa has become the sixth member state to complete its policy. The deadline was 2019, and it was not met. And other countries are still struggling because they have policies that are predominantly protectionist, and they cannot let go and have policies that align with international and, and SADC and AU arrangements.

So we now have this policy framework, and we are also looking at, uh, the, the migration laws, uh, and the bill to make sure that it is consistent with the ILO, uh, conventions. If you can move to the next slide.

Obviously, the NLP was done to, um, align with constitutional provisions, to deal with regional priorities, and, and to make sure that we are able to have interventions that we can monitor and implement. But also, we were sensitive to the worsening unemployment situation in the country, and the fact that the conditions in the neighboring countries are resulting in their citizens, um, leaving their countries to South Africa as a destination of choice to try and make a living. But also to work with them to, to make sure that they also address, address the plight of their citizens. Uh, but, um, we also looked at the scarce and critical skills that the country needs to make sure that we have an easy, easy passage. Next slide.

In other areas, we looked at the bilateral agreements. Members may be aware or may not be aware that the current bilateral agreements that we have dates back to the 60s with the port, the, for instance, Mozambique, when it was still a Portuga, a province, uh, of, of, of, of Portugal. And those bilateral agreements were predominantly made by the then government to attract, um, workers from those countries to come and work in the mines. You recall that we had a two-gate policy. The one side was to drive people from the rural areas and the provinces to leave their homesteads and, uh, areas to go and work in the cities and to live in the host. And the second approach was intended to supplement that labor through the, um, uh, giving concessions to neighboring countries and making sure that they are able to recruit and deploy large numbers of people to work, especially in areas such as the mines where gold and diamonds were being discovered under very precarious, uh, conditions. And, uh, we also looked at the regional interest, and those agreements are not consistent with the constitution and current trends and have to be renegotiated. We looked at, uh, scarcity skills. Uh, you can move to the next slide.

There are four areas, simply, that are suggested in the policy. The one is labor migration governance and management, which is basically administration and the data for monitoring and evaluation, which complements administration. And the policy is very strong on two areas: the labor migration to South Africa and labor migration from South Africa to other countries. And the next slides, uh, tries to go into detail in terms of, um, explaining each area. I won't go into detail. You can skip that one. It's the progress that I've already covered. Um, this is the vision that we have given, uh, on the labor migration, which is to provide leadership and interventions that are supported by social partners and major stakeholders, allowing for safe, orderly, and regular migration for employment of highly, semi, and low-skilled workers to South Africa and from South Africa to other countries in pursuit of the country's national priorities. This is the policy vision that we have framed. Next slide.

Now, I won't go into detail. Uh, honorable chair and members, uh, you can go through this on governance. We talked to issues around, uh, staffing, around how we administer, around systems, around, um, you know, DHA with Dell, around how we can establish one-stop shops, around how, um, the department can go about renegotiating bilateral agreements. Next slide.

Uh, it's a continuation around that on the structures that we will need, on the whole question of, uh, dialogues that we must continue to engage with social, uh, partners. But we also made an important point around inter-ministerial coordination. Migration affects about 14 departments: schooling, social development, um, uh, security, police, and so on. And the idea of an IMC on migration to continue to look at this issue is not a matter that you can leave between Home Affairs and, um, Employment and Labor. Um, human trafficking, for instance, that prosecution affects the justice system. And we conclude in terms of governance by recommending a strong kind of an inter-ministerial committee that will continue to, uh, h, uh, monitor and guide various departments around migration. And this is in line with the global treaties, uh, that we have seen where, um, departments that are affected have got very specific, uh, targets in line with the millennium indicators that they must meet. And, uh, the president is, uh, currently considering this area. It was there in the sixth administration, and we hope that it will be reintroduced again. If you can move on the next slide.

The data is basically around making sure that we have evidence-based decisions. We have got systems that are able to, uh, follow and track, and we can also introduce methodologies to monitor things like, um, undocumented migrants. We have seen, uh, in China, for instance, with the usage of your eye, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, 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e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h, e, h,

We deal finally with the desirability of, uh, the act, uh, or the bill. We, we, we can do that, having applied our minds properly, uh, on that. So that sort of Africans, uh, still have this thing that it's still about putting themselves first. But we do accept that there may be skills we need from outside that may be lacking in the country for us to grow the economy, uh, in a way that helps people of the country.

That then links to, um, the point in relation to amendment, uh, that talks to the minister, uh, exempting or not enforcing. Of course, it says, uh, for as long as it's in line with the act, that you can exempt employers, uh, or wave. And, and in fact, I wanted to use the word waiver because the problem you've raised with all the visas with Home Affairs is that sometimes that discretion, uh, on the waiver, you just see it in the social media, uh, that we've just given a visa for a gardener, as though there's no person who can do, uh, garden services in the country. So if left unchecked, it, it creates that problem. And I'm raising this, uh, not on the basis of who was the minister today, but we are making the laws not only for today, but for the future, that we are able to cap that.

So if this will be addressed in the regulations, uh, at least indicate that, uh, there will be some detail in the actual regulations as to reasonable circumstances that would lead to a minister not insisting on a skills plan, uh, when foreign nationals have been brought in. Because for me, I think the key issue here is that you are bringing the skills only because you don't have them, not because you do not have any intention to train your own to have that skill, uh, within the country. Uh, so, so I'm just saying that, that for me, it's, it's an important point to, to make as, as you respond. Otherwise, quite a number of areas, uh, are covered, and some of them may look at, you may look at them as giving these rights to foreign nationals where they can make claims and so on. But in a way, the other thing that may not be coming out of it is that once that space is regulated to a point of eliminating exploitation of those workers, it will also be a deterrence in a way to try and flood, uh, the labor market with foreign nationals because you're underpaying them, because they don't have rights to make such claims. So it will, in a way, cut, especially where South Africans are on the queue to be employed, and to undermine, uh, the economy, to undermine the progress that the country needs to make, uh, in bettering the lives of people, you then introduce this aspect of bringing, uh, cheap labor because they do not know that they have got rights. I think it's an important thing that I saw coming out. Erh, it may not be seen in that way by, by the look of foreign nationals, but it may be a deterrent because most of the problems are caused by people who are doing this cheap labor, but using foreigners that may think they have no rights as workers to raise what is supposed to be their right. So as, as you respond, you can respond to the matter as you think can respond to, so that we close on this one and get to the last presentation. The, the questions are massive. Uh, I'll try to navigate through all of them, um, and, and, and without going into detail. Uh, let, let me start off by taking the question raised by honorable Mui, because I tried to clarify that issue, that the policy, uh, has been adopted by cabinet. Uh, it has been published, and as we know, the policy has no, um, force, but it serves as a guide and gives direction. What is in front of you is the bill that you, as the committee, must now take forward and, and, and, and, and process. And there is nothing preventing reference to the policy, and like I said, the policy will be reviewed and adjusted from time to time.

And let me also link this to your question, Chairperson, that given the time it took, the, the problem of migrants dates back for years, but it has not changed. The movement of people in search of livelihood from their country to the next country is something that is also very, very old, as part of the history of our country, dating back to 1652 and beyond. That people will continue to move, and people will, will continue to move in the future in search of greener pastures. There are pull and push factors that force people to move, and we made a strong point in the policy around that. And as the policy was being made, we can assure you that we looked at the trends as they are prevailing, and we looked at the conditions and the situation in the neighboring countries, and we did our best. But you are also there to close the gaps that we may have, uh, omitted.

Now, let, let me go back to the questions, uh, in their order, Chairperson, taken from honorable, around, um, the, the, the, the minister determining specific sectors. Now, honorable members and members of the public, we refrained from going into detail around some of those things because we wanted the principle to be agreed to. The bill does give an indication that the minister will go through a research purpose, and we have already done that. And, and we also take from yourselves that there are certain sectors that are predominantly occupied by migrant workers. We know them in the construction, in the hospitality, in, in, in, in sectors such as domestic, etc. We, we already know them, and, and it's a question of making sure that we have got evidence that we are already, uh, gathering, so that when we finally list those sectors, just like in the employment equity, uh, we can then say, this is the situation, these are the numbers, and therefore the quotas that we want would be X, and, and give the companies, uh, or the sectors, uh, you know, that opportunity to be able to move towards that. Uh, it's a very difficult thing that we had to strike a balance on, because when you deal with legislation, I'm sure honorable members, what we would want is the principle, and once the principle is adopted, uh, in the regulations and the procedures, we, we will then be able to do that. The, the same thing applies to the, the question of safeguarding and the protecting South African nationals. The, the issue here, Chairperson and members, is that currently, it is happening without any form of oversight, and there are instances of abuse. Some South Africans, like honorable member is saying, they leave for greener pastures because of them being overworked and all that. But the reality is that there are some laws that trap them. Some of them have worked for years. Unfortunately, they invested in property and other things. They can't take the money out of the country. So, they've got a choice of becoming a citizen because their skill is needed. And when they leave the country, they will come back poor because they can't transfer anything out of that country because of heavy taxation and so on. Now, we have a choice of saying, yes, there is this thing that is happening, and in principle, there's a need to really regulate it, or we leave it as is, a free-for-all, and then what is currently happening will continue as such. Now, again, the detail will be in the legislation, uh, on the coordination. We raise a number of issues. I think on the governance, I did raise the issue of an interministerial. Now, honorable members will know that this is not something that you can put in a legislation and say, thou shalt be. But in the policy, we could, we could, we could, we were able to say, in order to achieve this, we would recommend an interministerial on, on migration. And it links to a number of questions that I'm not going to repeat. And I think honorable Mele touched on some of them, and, uh, honorable touched on, on some of them. The issue is that migration affects quite a number of departments, and if we are not going to coordinate and collaborate, we will not win. During COVID, for instance, borders were closed. Social development was forced to give them, uh, the 350 grants and food parcels, irrespective of whether people were documented or not, because it was a humanitarian thing to do. Now, going forward, obviously, we need to be better prepared, and, and we, we then have to make sure that we, we are able to, to, to, to, to ensure that we, we, we, we, we better coordinate. Hence, we said, I mean, criminal justice system, security system, all of them in the previous IMC were there because we, we, we, we had to operate together around strategies that are in place to deal with tensions. One of the things that we did, uh, even during the hearings, and we have plans in our action plan, because this is something that cabinet also pronounced on, is that we must continue to conduct workshops and clinics to deepen the understanding on the policy across the country. We have had a big migration, uh, uh, dialogue where organizations such as, uh, the NTDF, the ATDF, DUDLA, and a whole range of formations came together when we presented the adopted policy, and most of them left with a better understanding, uh, on what the policy is saying. And they made a call to say that we must go all out in regions. We must go to radio stations so that we can get South Africans talking on the, on the policy, and we must produce booklets and, and make sure that they are accessible everywhere so that we can deepen the understanding, something that we are working on, because we believe that South Africa should be talking on the policy itself.

Now, the question around how does the policy, uh, regulate sectors such as scooter drivers and so on, and again, this is linked to your first question, because we know, and for your information, uh, uh, honorable members, currently we have been engaged with Checker 6060, Takealot, uh, the Uber drivers, and a number of other organizations that are involved in the, in the, in the, in the business that transport goods, food, and so on. And that is because the kind of permits they had during COVID, and certain assumptions that were made in them going to recruit foreign nationals. Those permits are expiring. We have demystified the myth that South Africans are not willing to drive scooters. If you take the Post Office, and previously above LAP, and all that, we have had a lot of South Africans that were involved in the drive, in, in that area. Some of us grew up to this age because our fathers were deliveries, uh, driving the scooter. So the perception that South Africans don't want to drive scooters or bicycles to deliver goods, I think Checkers and a number of retailers have come to accept that that was a myth. That is something that was sold to them by the people who were keen on bringing in, uh, people from neighboring countries with the intention of underpaying them and using COVID as an excuse and making them work unreasonable hours. And I'm sure, me, honorable members will know or may be aware of the, uh, CCMA ruling which was endorsed by the, which has been taken to courts, that Uber drivers and, uh, Takealot and all these others should be regarded as workers and should be, uh, um, you know, provided access or should enjoy the same rights as other workers, because this was becoming a new area of exploitation of workers using the gig platform. And you may be familiar with the discussions at the ILO as well, to try and come up with mechanisms that are going to protect the rights of workers that we call, uh, the gig economy workers that are emerging, because they interact with, with the platform.

Now, honorable Bahrain raises a number of court cases, and, and we have had an extensive process where we collected a number of those court cases, analyzed them to understand what the judges have said, uh, when they ruled against attempts, mainly not in the Department of Employment and Labor. The majority of them have been in the, uh, Home Affairs side, and, and they arise from the contradictions between the Immigration Act, the Citizenship Act, and the Refugees Act. And hence, the process that was initially initiated to try and review these laws and, and, and culminated in a white paper that cabinet has given instruction that, uh, we, we continue to address them. And hopefully, and, and, and I, I, I hear honorable person is saying this is a matter that has been there, but it takes time, because if you don't have policy and proper legislation, we have gone to courts and we have lost, because the courts have said, put proper legislation in, in, in, in, in, in place so that we are able to, to deal with, uh, uh, uh, all these issues. We, we agree that this will require Dell and DHA, uh, uh, cooperation in the main. Uh, we don't believe that this is going to be just a, you know, something that is written on paper. Um, and, and we have seen how other countries have managed. Yes, the question of capacity and human, uh, uh, beings on the ground is a challenge. But nowadays, with the use of technology, you can advance. The cell phone companies, uh, have developed mechanisms. If they collaborate with government, they can easily track this matter. Almost everyone, including undocumented migrants, have got cell phones, and they use the systems, uh, that are available. And everyone goes to shops everywhere where there are cameras that are linked to the various, uh, sectors that monitors a whole range of things. And, uh, the security agencies are also developing, uh, those technologies. We believe that, um, the capacity can translate into technology, and we can be on par with other countries and use that technology to be able to immediately track, as, uh, honorable Basana is saying, somebody who has overstayed, and, and, and immediately make sure that they are ejected and they are banned. Currently, the Home Affairs Act, uh, or processes put a ban of five years. They fingerprint a person, and that person will not be allowed to come into South Africa, uh, if they transgressed, uh, on the advisor requirements. And I think the issue has been the, the, the, the enforcement, and we believe that we can develop the expertise, uh, with times. Or expertise is not something that you can easily do overnight.

Um, honorable Me or honorable Shzi raises a number of questions around, uh, employment of, uh, foreigners in, in South Africa and issues around the numbers. And, and, and I did show you a slide that indicates the documented ones that are on the Home Affairs systems that Stats SA managed to use as a, a resource, but also equally indicated that because of the porous nature of our borders currently, we don't know the extent of the problem in terms of the numbers. And hence, the application of other tools such as technology and so on, is what is going to assist us. In the bill, I did refer to a section in detail that, uh, for instance, gave examples of the difficulties and challenges that we are ex, we are currently experiencing when we enforce. I used an example of an immigration officer turning up in a workplace or an inspector turning up, and how we are trying, uh, through the bill, uh, intending to make sure that the seamless approach between the two departments, and making sure that there are delegations and empowerment in the enforcement of the legislation, including the arrest and, and assisting the criminal, criminal justice system in the prosecution, uh, so that they don't just let people, uh, leave.

Honorable raises a number of issues around, uh, the time it took. Yes, we agree, it, it took longer than we anticipated. Uh, like I said, I confess that it started during the fifth administration, the sixth, and even today, because of the complex nature of issues that we are dealing with. And, and the, the question of, um, the, the, the visas, uh, that are granted to, to people to come and work in the country, uh, it is something that is within the DHA. Uh, and that is why I indicated, honorable Chair, the need for close collaboration, uh, between the portfolio committee on employment and labor and the Home Affairs one, as they finalize, uh, the amendments, uh, in, in, in, in, in the Citizenship Act, Immigration Act, and, and the, the, the Refugees Act. In fact, the stakeholders at Nedlac initially wanted the two processes to be held back until Home Affairs has completed the amendment bill so that they can go together and ensure synergy. But later on, they realized that because of the, the deteriorating situation, uh, they would let go this, this bill, but also allow Home Affairs to complete their process and ensure that, um, uh, uh, the bill that they are taking their pro, uh, processing aligns with this one. And I think that is the understanding that we are proceeding on those bases.

Um, the enforcement on compliance to visas. I acknowledge that that's a challenge, and, and I did give examples of technology that we can employ. On the, I think I touched on the, the question of the numbers of, of, of, um, migrants, uh, that we, we, we, we, we, we don't know, especially undocumented ones. I agree with honorable Me's assessment on the impact, especially of undocumented migrants, that is having, be it our health system, the criminal justice system, our schooling system, and all that. And, and hence, the question of coordination, but also accepting the need that, as employment and labor alone, we will not be able to solve this problem. Hence, the issue around the coordination. But you will not find that expression in legislation, but it is in the, in the, in the, in the, in the policy. We, we agree also with yourself around your assessment on the movement of South Africans to go and, and, and, and, and work outside. Some went to America because of some frustrations and, and so on. But once they are there, there are challenges because they remain foreigners in those countries. They get involved in all sorts of things, and our missions are then expected to come in and assist them because they remain South Africans. It doesn't matter how they got into those country. When a South African citizen is involved in all sorts of challenges in a foreign country, our missions have to step in. Now, the framework basically says, let us make sure that we have a proper coordinated framework that we can use for South Africans to go and work abroad. We gave an example, and I think Chairperson, you also touched on this issue, where South Africans, we invest a lot of money, and they end up being taken and work, for instance, in Germany, UK. Is there no case for South Africa to make for that government to invest in the health system of South Africa? Because we are spending a lot, and no sooner we have invested, and remember, uh, honorable members, they don't just take lower-level people, they take the best people that they are going to pay higher salaries, that they are going to provide accommodation to, and so on, and they don't normally target the lower-level people. And those are the people that we need in our healthcare system, in our schooling system, to take our countries forward. So, where we also take people, and, and you'll be surprised that countries like Saudi Arabia, Ireland, and so on, are not targeting high-level people. They are targeting our artisans, middle, and in some instances, low-level skilled. Reason is simple. Citizens of those countries are beginning to regard some work as too inferior, dirty, unattractive, and they don't want, they don't want to be involved in those, in things like frail care. They are refusing to take care of their people, and a lot of South Africans are being recruited to work in those areas. Now, the framework seeks to have proper bilateral agreements, as we outlined in the bill, that will ensure that South Africans who intend working in those countries are recruited by agencies that we can verify with countries of origin. The conditions of work, including their social security, uh, can be verified with the country of origin, and if there are challenges, our mission will be able to intervene, and they can then be deported, or when they come back, or should the situation arise where we need them, we are able to have a map of where they are, and we can also provide incentives to attract them and to make sure that they come back to assist us in areas where we, we will be looking at, at, at, uh, foreign nationals. And this practice is not unique to South Africa. Is something that is currently common in developing countries, and we have interacted with G20 members, and we have looked at their system, and we can confirm that they've got systems in place to deal with matters of this nature. We agree with honorable around the assessment on the security threat, uh, posed by undocumented workers, etc. And, and, um, I, I think the, the question of refugee camps is something that, uh, US honorable members must debate, because it has got implications around funding. South Africa tended to make refugees to be everywhere in the country and to allow them to work, because we don't have those, uh, centers. Centers that we have, uh, where people are waiting to be deported are very few, and they are not, uh, refugee camps. Those are, are centers that facilitate, uh, the deportation of people that have been found in the country to have transgressed, uh, laws. I think honorable Duvati, um, we, we may have, uh, we took advice, uh, and, and we will go back to the MCP, and I think you will be assisted by the state law advisors yourselves, who will also make a determination on the referral of this bill to the traditional leadership. Uh, I did say that the minister did write to the National Council of Provinces, the Chairperson of the National Assembly, and the Chairperson of the Employment and Labor Portfolio Committee, uh, uh, currently, and I'm sure in your deliberations, you are the lawmakers who have all the rights and can make decisions on matters of this nature. We can only make drafts and, and submit to ourselves, but we are not, uh, uh, lawmakers.

Um, as for the, the, the capacity, uh, to implement, I think I, I don't, I won't repeat this, because I mentioned the question of the, the, the, the technologies that are being explored. If you take the border management, they are now using drones, uh, with the defense force, and, uh, in the border management has also, uh, you know, adopted technology that uses AI in the borders of entry, and we believe that with the technology improving, uh, I'm sure we can, we can, we can improve on that. The question of review of critical skills and critical and scarce skills. Now, I got slightly confused, but, um, there are two issues here. One is that you need a mechanism that will say, these are the skills that we need that are very important for our economy to grow, that we don't have in the country, and so on, and that you have a dispensation that facilitates the movement and inflow of, uh, those skills. Like honorable Baham is saying, because there may be other sectors of the economy. We had Guus, Mui, and so on, where concession was made to bring some of those skills, uh, because they are needed. But equally, honorable members must be aware that there is a lot of abuse and opportunism in the system, where anyone, if you don't have a system to regulate that, anyone can come into the country, and any company can make arguments that says, no, we definitely need this person, we can't do without them. Remember, there are intra-company visas that if BMW has a plant in Rosslyn and wants to bring a certain skill from BMW, uh, in, in, in, in Germany, they can easily do that. There are procedures that have been agreed to with DTI that are normally, uh, used. The same thing with the sports, uh, uh, there are mechanisms that we use. Education has got similar processes that they follow to fast-track the inflow of such people. But if you don't have a mechanism, we may be wrong in the terminology. We accept suggestions. It is not in the department. It is in, of Employment and Labor. It is in Home Affairs. We work with them, and we have used it as a means of screening and to make sure that we only allow those people that we definitely need, and we stop chances and other people who are taking, you know, a, a chances to bring in other people. I think, uh, Dad Khalipi will be best placed to respond on, uh, honorable Basson's question around employment equity. However, I did respond on the issue around the time it took. Uh, I responded to a question on the material conditions that have changed. Uh, honorable Chairperson, the, if the, the bill is not specific, um, you have the state law advisors to assist in the adjustment. It's now on your lap, and from now on, we are going to be providing the, the support, uh, that you, you need. But the lawmakers yourselves, and the chief law state advisors will advise on the issue around the regulate, uh, foreign nationals. Though I can give the context, the issue that we had, and in the opening, we basically talk about regulate and facilitate, precisely because of that reason. Uh, the regulation is the control part, but the facilitation was looked at in terms of the skills that you need in the country to really make sure that you meet the, the kind of economic requirements. That was the context within which regulate and facilitate was, was used. But it was also used in terms of facilitating the, the question of South Africans, uh, working abroad. I think on the question of the minister, uh, and the powers, and we know that the, uh, situation changes, and, and there must be checks and balances. But the provision that we put there, uh, requires the minister to follow a specific criteria, to also consult with the, uh, uh, Employment Services Board, to publish in the gazette for the purposes of getting, uh, opinion. So it's not a blanket, uh, uh, check that, willy-nilly, waivers could be done. Uh, there is a criteria. If it is not tight enough, uh, I'm sure, uh, during your process, you will adjust it accordingly, so that the sentiments that you are raising, uh, are, are covered, and, and we don't, uh, end up with loopholes. Uh, honorable Chairperson, I, I thought that I did my best, and I was scribbling as much as I could. Uh, I hope I did not, uh, you'll forgive me if I skipped some questions. Uh, I know there are questions that honorable Bakrin raised around the definition, and using an example of the person that he gives 20 rand to. Uh, those are things that will be looked at in the process, and check if the definition that we put there is confusing, or the context in which it is being used, uh, is not correct, and, and so on, and, and those are some of the things that will be done during the processes. Thank you very much, honorable Chairperson. I submit. Thank you, Teacher. Yeah, I think, uh, honorable members, this being a workshop, we, we have to wrap up on, on this point. Honorable, to, I'm not sure on pointing now. No, I want to ask your permission to, to, to implement kaism. To implement what? Is to, to be mom. You can't be mom here. Yeah. I want to request, man, there's a, there's a very serious issue in the John Mukari Hospital. If anyone who's there can implicate a team to go into that hospital, there's a very serious violation of workers' rights. Thanks for allowing me to call him. No, man, you can, you were not allowed. No, no. H, let, let me come back to then the point I made earlier, that this was really meant, honorable members, to empower us so that when the bill is before us, that could be cleared. Just, um, to emphasize the point so that, uh, there's no thinking that there will be others that are left behind. Uh, DGA, the point was, uh, that the advice from the state law advisor is that this is a section 75 bill, honorable, and if you look at that, that section 75, it means it's a, it's a bill that's not affecting provinces that would then need intensive engagement that regard like 76, 6, H. And I think we should take it in that spirit. SOP was written to, however, as it gets to be put into the parliament, I think all those checks and balances from a, a joint taking mechanism would, would then come into play. Uh, just to avoid that a bill is taken for review and found that maybe the tagging of the bill would have been incorrect. So you can be rest assured that's the first line. Second line is that as the bill is coming, is to come before us, we have also a public participation process, and in that public participation process, there is no stakeholder that has an interest to make an input that would be left out. So I just thought, uh, we should give that comfort that, uh, at least at the time it comes, it may have taken long, but it's still a, a topical issue in the communities, uh, in South Africa. Uh, all these areas that have been assessed, whether it's a security, whether it's about taking our jobs, whether it's about taking up even small businesses, and so we, we, as a seventh, um, a decision, uh, in terms of, uh, making laws that respond to what South Africans, uh, would want to see in that space. So I, I, I think I want to, to put it at that level so that we understand also the responsibility that is now put on us, that we, we now have to take it, uh, to take it forward. So we would await then the, the formal, uh, introduction. You can be guaranteed from the responses to the questions, you've helped us a lot. When we get to the actual engagement of the bill, and it has empowered us to better explain, because these questions, some of them may come up as we engage, uh, with the public, uh, and, and we can answer them confidently, knowing the background work that was happening on the site. This will then conclude, uh, this, uh, uh, item, which was the combination of, uh, uh, the bill, Employment Services Amendment Bill, and the National Labor Migration Policy, and everything else, we'll read as we move. We'll now get to the last, is that the last one, honorable, uh, sorry, Mr. Sagasa, it's the last one, right, from the agenda. Yes, Chair, I think there is still a from the proposed labor laws, and also the last item will be the program, Chair. Yes. No, I'm just saying from the side of presentations, we're taking the last presentation now. Yes, Chair. Yes, on the labor laws. Is that Mr. Khalipi that will be dealing with that aspect? Thank you, Chair. Yes, Mr. Malipi. Uh, just a reminder again, that the members have received the documents, they've confirmed. You, you'll really be taking us to certain points on an understanding again, that in the main, uh, you are giving us what has been the work and the status, uh, thereof, so that we, in the main, note what, uh, you are presenting to us. So I'm trying to help you to, to manage your time. Uh, only when I put up my video that I will be saying, I think you can, you can conclude, because the main item has been dealt with. Over to you. Thank you, Chair, and thank you, honorable members, and members of the public, and my colleagues who are in this, uh, meeting. Uh, I must say, honorable Chair, what we've looked at as a department, we ask ourselves a question, um, in the space that we're in, in terms of our legislation. Are we protecting workers enough, or have we moved towards, uh, protection too much? Remember, our legislation, labor law, the intention of labor law is to balance the, to balance the need to protect and the ability for business to do business. And that's the balancing act that all labor law in every country are trying to do, and our labor law are trying to do that, and these amendments are trying to do exactly that. Now, these amendments are not in the same stage as the migration, the Employment Services Bill. We're still at the beginning. They've been finalized at NELC. They've went through state law advisors for certification. Now, we are busy with socio-economic impact assessments with the intention of going to cabinet for cabinet to approve that they be published for public comment, and then after go back to cabinet for cabinet to approve to submit to Parliament. Now, it's the L that we are amending some clauses in the L, the Basic Conditions of Employment, the National Minimum Wage Bill, and the Employment Equity Bill. They are not major amendments that we're making, but they are very important amendments. Next slide, please.

Now, as I've indicated, that the bills that we are, the laws that we're amending are these three, four bills. I'm not going to repeat that. And the aim, as I've indicated, to support the government effort to deal with unemployment, poverty, and inequality. That's what it's all about in these amendments. We want to enhance protection for workers, particularly the most vulnerable workers. I mean, the workers that my colleagues, Mr. Murba, and the members were talking about, gig economy actors, and all sort of workers that are vulnerable. We want to improve the efficiency in dispute resolution between employers and employees. We want to facilitate compliance for small business with labor legislation. And remember, me, members, it's not as easy for small business as compared to big companies like Shoprite and the banks, who have got specialists who deal with labor law. A small business, if you're operating a business, you employ two people, you're a small business, or you're a domestic employer, you don't have those luxuries and those benefits of having specialist HR departments. We are aligning our legislation with recent court rulings and labor market changes. There's been many court rulings that interpret our law. We're just aligning that with those. Next slide, please.

As I've indicated, we're responding to the changes in the labor market and the nature of work. We're dealing with bottlenecks in existing systems. We're expanding access to collective organizing, collective bargaining, and bargaining for unprotected workers. We're providing rights and protection suited to an evolving work and arrangement. We're reducing disputes and simplifying dispute resolution processes, procedures. And we're promoting economic growth sustainability for small and new business. Next slide, please.

Now, on the issue of simplification of procedural fairness, we clarify fair procedure for dismissal, requiring employers to provide employees an adequate opportunity to respond to allegations. We're trying to expedite internal company procedures by reducing disputes over technicalities and lower caseload to the CCMA. We're lowering caseload to the CCMA. We limit compensation for unfair dismissal. We've capped compensation at 12 months' remuneration or at a minister-prescribed amount to ensure certainty and discourage forum shopping, that you should not be able to go to the high court and go to the magistrate court and go to the CCMA when you think it suits you. We think that highly paid employees, CEOs of companies, we've, we normally use two examples now. We've got the case of the, is it Prasa, the, not the road, the Road Accident Fund, the CEO of the Road Accident Fund has gone to the CCMA to challenge his dismissal or his non-renewal of his contract. We remember the case, old case, in Old Mutual, of the CEO of Old Mutual, Mr. going to the CCMA to challenge his case of dismissal. We don't think the CCMA was set up for those kind of individuals who are earning more than anything else for them to be able to protect themselves. And we think that the CCMA is a space, is created for vulnerable workers who should go in, and you should not be clogging the system of the CCMA with all the legal representation on these high-profile cases that are in the media that put pressure on the CCMA. And we're proposing that access to the system should be limited, and we've put a threshold on that. Next slide, please.

Are you moving the slide? Uh, no. She takes a bit of time, and that's killing her time. Okay, I'll try and proceed in the meantime. Yes. Now, in, we, on the issue about inquiry by an arbitrator. Presently, the current law, an inquiry is when, um, uh, is when an employer, there's a, there's a, a dispute between an employee and employee, and in terms of the current law, there must be an agreement between the parties whether the case can be heard at the company by an arbitrator of the CCMA, and the arbitrator of the CCMA hears the case without, uh, the case being referred to the CCMA, it's heard at the company. What are we changing there? And that this section was introduced to speed up dispute resolution, so that if a CCMA hears the case at the company, it assists the workers so that the workers can, if they are not guilty of anything, can go back to work quickly, and it assists the company if the workers are guilty of anything, that the dispute is resolved quickly, so that somebody else can be employed if the worker must be dismissed. Now, the law requires this to be done by agreement between the two parties. We're not changing that. What we're saying is the law should allow that a contract of employment that is entered between the two parties should be good enough to determine how this dispute will be resolved. When I get a job at the department, I sign a contract of employment. My contract of employment that I sign should be able to indicate how disputes will be resolved between the two of us, and that's what this provision is, is doing here. If employers want to reduce and resolve disputes quickly, and then employees, they can enter into a contract of employment that allows an inquiry by an arbitrator. We, this is aimed to reduce the amount of work that will go to the CCMA and assist in fast dispute resolution. On the issues about retrenchment and procedures, we've updated the codes on dismissal. That code on dismissal and, and retrenchment, the updated code is going to be published, members, because the code does not come to Parliament necessarily. It's a tool that is given to the minister to publish. It's going to be published by next week Monday, and that simplifies and tells the market how, and the workers how to deal with dispute resolution and retrenchment, and simplifies lawful procedures for large-scale retrenchment and removing mandatory facilitation requirement. For example, presently, if a case, there's a facilitation that takes place, and there's no settlement, then the company, after that facilitation, goes to the CCMA. The law requires another facilitation. We're dealing with those issues. We're increasing, uh, severance pay. Presently, severance pay is one week for every communicative service. We're increasing it to two weeks' communicative service. And, and, and, and we're improving efficiency of bargaining councils. We're extending, presently, uh, me, members will remember in the metal bargaining council, the metal bargaining council, if it was not for this provision of the law, it would not exist today, because there was no agreement to collect levies between employers and employees, and therefore, then the union was able to request the minister to keep the agreement that exists going. The problem with the provision of the law now is that the minister can only keep it going for 12 months. We're increasing that to 36 months to give stability into the bargaining councils. We're proposing, members, we know this is a controversial proposal that we're making, that small business startups that are two years and less. If you start a business, the chances of failure in the first two years are great. It's just like a baby, first two years, the chances of that baby getting sick, getting all sorts of sickness, pneumonia, and all of those issues are great. That's why, uh, there are regulations to immunize and give certain medical assistance to babies. The same applies with startups. We say startups should be given a space to be able to stand on their feet, and we say two years of exclusion if they employ less than 50 employees. Two years of exclusion from bargaining council agreements, not from the minimum wage, from bargaining council agreements to give them that space. And those businesses must employ less than 50 employees must also not be businesses that have been in existence. Therefore, you can't break up a business and claim this protection. Next slide, please.

Now, we are also improving the efficiency of the labor court. We allow the labor court judges, presently, the labor court judges cannot act as labor appeal court judges. Only labor court judges who are also judges of the high court can act as labor court, labor court judges. It's restricted to those who are high court judges, which is making the change there and saying, if you are good enough to be a labor court judge, you should be good enough to be a labor appeal court judge. Act the labor judge, if there's space to act. We're expanding the labor court jurisdiction across all the provinces, as it is making sure that justice, a technical amendment, making sure that all the where there's offices is mentioned in the law, it's not changing. We are proposing to limit protection. I mean, the, the concept of probation, members, has always been understood that when a worker is on probation, it should be easy for the employer. You should not use the same standard in deciding whether the employee should stay or not. Remember, an employer takes a risk when they employ somebody. And there's a big argument internationally that says the reason employers are not employing is because they don't want to take a risk with a new person when they do not know whether the person is going to succeed. And our labor law makes it so difficult for them to say to this employee, "No, you're not succeeding in this three months. You're not able to do this work. Let us, uh, end our relationship." And that was the intention of labor law. And that's why we've got the term probation, that you are still on probation. It means that you must be, it must be easy then to end that contract. And that's what we're doing here. We're simplifying that provision. The law already requires that when CCMA and the decision-makers make decisions around workers who are on probation, they should take a lesser standard. We think this provision will encourage employers to hire more, employ, especially younger employees into the labor market, because the risk of them not being able to end those contracts will be lessened, and, and then allow them to be able to take those risks. We're expanding the definition of an employee, and honorable member B has asked the issue about the worker who is at the, at the side of the street that washes your window. Is that a worker in terms of the BC of the employment of the minimum wage? Remember, the minimum wage already talks to workers. But so honorable would understand that first, uh, uh, labor law talks about reasonable and fairness. It's not about is it legal or illegal. Is it reasonable to expect honorable brain to, uh, be an employer of this person that is washing the window at the, at the intersection? And the chances there are a care that is unreasonable. No labor decision will, uh, make a decision that that's what is expected in terms of labor law. Bearing in mind that UIF only kicks in if you work more than 24 hours a month, and, and all of those issues that are built in, in terms of that. Therefore, we are expanding the definition of employee to include, so that we include non-standard workers, the Uber drivers that, uh, Mr. was talking about. Labor law now, in the, the labor relations, the BCEA, we're making this definition, expanded definition. Actors have been, we have been having a long decision with actors of how do we factor them in in labor law, in terms of the current provision of our law on these issues. We think the definition that we've got is in line with international best practices that are taking place around these areas of, uh, non-standard work arrangements and the definition of employee, so that they will be able to join trade unions, to be able to participate in collective bargaining, and we're discussing further with the UIF and KA on how do we make sure that they are able to enjoy those benefits, so that if COVID too comes again, and they are not able to perform or ride their scooters, they are able, just like any other workers, to be able to claim, and, and also the issues around freedom of association and collective bargaining, uh, for, for themselves in terms of these areas. Next slide, please.

Now, we're changing the jurisdiction of the bargaining council so that they are able to have the same jurisdiction as a CCMA. Bargaining council to resolve disputes under any employment law, reducing CCMA caseload. Presently, bargaining councils can only deal with dismissals, and we say if the CCMA is allowed to deal with all disputes, why can't bargaining councils deal with the same?

dispute that banking council deal with. We're making that change and we believe that will reduce the CCMA case load in this area and the issues about resolution of procedure including compliance orders and enforcement.

The rules, the CMA must be able to develop its own rules around these areas, and we're making that clear in the law. We are dealing with another limitation in terms of protecting public labor institutions from liability for damages. We don't want commissioners to be at risk if they make decisions and public and public council that they can be sued for damages. And if a company does not comply with the CMA order, and we ask the sheriff to go out and attach, and in the process of that attachment, damages take place. We don't want the sheriff to say we want huge securities because we don't have liability to enforce the decision of the CCMA. Therefore, we're giving them liability in terms of the law.

We are harmonizing dispute resolution, extending arbitration for harassment disputes, not just sexual harassment. We are making amendments in employment equity to take away the word "sexual harassment" and widening it out to all harassment. Be it harassment, sexual harassment, be it other harassment, zoning harassment, CCMA to have jurisdiction on that to avoid splitting up cases in order to go to the CCMA on this one and had to go to the labor court on that one.

And we are doing this. We allow employees, say, allow employees dismissed for specific reasons, initiative to choose arbitration on the labor court. We're allowing employees who earn below the threshold not have to go to the labor court on cases of discrimination. And this reduces their cost.

Next slide, please. As I've already indicated, severance pay dispute, we are granting CMA the rights, the jurisdiction to deal with all disputes, including severance pay disputes, instead of having to take them into the labor court. This is in line with rulings of the labor court to prevent again claim duplication and splitting of cases.

Now, on the issues of impact on job creation, the code that I said will be published on Monday, Tuesday, is a simplified code of good practice for small business dismissal to encourage job creation. It deals with these issues. It deals with the new issues of small businesses who are lesser than 50. It deals with probation, and as I've said, it will be published by next week. The code, not the amendment.

Next slide, please. The issues around compliance order and enforcement. We are clarifying the process for inspectors of issuing compliance orders under the national minimum wage and the BCA for arbitration with the CCMA. We also allow condonation for late appeals. Remember, if an inspector issues a compliance order, the employer must apply to the CCMA, and there are timelines in the act by what time. And we're saying, but if the employer can show good cause, if the employer says, "Well, I couldn't apply because there was a fire on my company during that time, and I was not able to apply," that's showing good cause why they didn't meet the deadline. Now, present the law does not allow that. We think it's good to have a provision that allows showing good cause.

We are making it clear that if an employer does not comply with the minimum wage on the amendment to the minimum wage, there are penalties. There are penalties in terms of the minimum wage. Those penalties are not for fiscals. It's the employee who has not been paid the minimum wage. It's them who has lost opportunity cost. What we call opportunity cost. If you are supposed to get 100 rand today, you don't get it. You get it in two months' time. You've lost opportunity cost. There could have been what you sales in the company, bargain, and where prices are down, where you could have used that 100 rand to buy food and do something for yourself when things were cheap. Now you're getting it three months down the line, and the prices have changed. That's the opportunity cost that we're talking about. Therefore, when an employee is not paid the minimum wage, the penalties that are aligned by the inspectors must be paid to the employees, not be paid into the fiscals. And that's the change that we're making in the National Minimum Wage Act.

And bargaining councils must be able to hear claims of non-payment of amounts for low-paid workers. If workers have not been paid their wages, and there are no CCMA offices in that, the bargaining council should be able to hear a case of non-payment of wages in their sector. This is in their sector, whether those workers are union members or not.

Next slide, please. Now, those are the bills. Where are we with the bills? As I've indicated, they are not yet in parliament. We hope by the end of this year, they will be in parliament. The bills have been satisfied by the state law advisors. They've been submitted for CISA for social economic impact assessment, and then they will be coming published for public comment, and then be submitted to parliament for members of the committees to deliberate on them and make whatever changes that they deem fit.

Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you, Mr. Khalipi. DTG. Honorable members, that's the presentation. As I said, we just need to remember that it is at a particular stage. So the questions of clarity are also limited in that we should also allow the process of cabinet and be able to deal with them as they come before us. But the information, as I said, it's important for us to be able to engage even in the public space because sometimes these matters get drawn into that space by different actors in the space.

May I then check if there are those that have quick questions to put up with this understanding? As I said, [Music] I see. Just take the names down then. Okay. So those are the heads I see now. So I'll take those hands. Honorable followed by honorable, then in that order. Can you proceed?

Okay. Thank you very much, Chair. I just want to then comment on the issues of maybe clarity. I can in terms of the startup businesses for that renovation of two years because I don't know. I also believe when businesses are starting, normally, I'm talking about the serious businesses, you'll find that maybe when they do their business plan, they also include the issues of the salaries and all that stuff. But I don't know, maybe although you have said that in terms of the basic salaries, they must comply, but I just want to check in terms of what does it mean that relaxation a little bit? Because if now within two years, they are getting any, I mean, their basic salary, then are you saying maybe when they are retrained, then those two years of relaxation are not covered? It's only that I got confused a little bit there.

And then in terms of probation. I was just worried that in terms of the probation, remember you would be having your employee employed, and then the employer normally what they do, they use those opportunities maybe to put you under pressure and all sorts of those things, and then they abuse that at that time of the probation. And then you find out maybe that will work up because I believe that it doesn't matter whether it's probation, but immediately you step into the workplace, you become an employee, and you become a worker. So you need to be protected by the laws so that we can guard against the issues of the abuse.

And then the other issue that I wanted to check, if then they were in terms of the labor court, I was just checking because we find that people that go through the labor court, they are lawyers and all that because you can't go as an individual. It's better at CMA. CMA doesn't do anything. You can go there with your representative. But when you go to the labor court, that means you must get a lawyer that specializes in. Now, when you are there, then if maybe, let me just say, you are not belonging to any trade union, you go there as an individual because you are not affiliated to any. Then when you go there, remember, and then you are a worker, and at the same time, you are expected to bring a lawyer, and that lawyer, you have to pay some monies and all that stuff, whereas you are also maybe facing some challenges. Maybe you are not even because other companies, they can be cruel so much that they ignore the laws, maybe to make sure that at least you have money. And then even when you are maybe doing this, the government has got enough resources to can maybe fight you even at the labor law. Maybe we can, when we must come just for the offenders, maybe we could also put a factor, employee, even if it's a private sector for that matter, they must afford you the same privilege they have in terms of lawyer. They must pay for those lawyers, whether you are going to win or lose the case. Because now we can't, as the employers, we can a lawyer, taxpayers, and with the very same person that was also paying tax when the person was working. So I think we need to look at that as well.

And then the last one, Chair person, is the issue of the comp. Let me just say, if the system pay, because what they do, maybe you find that maybe the system said we're giving you maybe three days to go to pay. Reluctant, and they don't pay that time, and then employ.

Okay. Okay. Thank you. Honorable Bah, you're still muted. It's your turn. Or let me then pass to manage. Thank you. I got you. Okay, I'm still alive. Thanks. Okay, sorry about that, Chair. My my thumb is too fat. I put two buttons on one. I apologize for that.

Thank you for that report, Mr. Khalipi. First of all, I must just tell you, this morning at about 11:00, I received the code of good practice, dismissal, that's been issued. Government has sent it out. It's been distributed. All the radio stations have it. So, people are phoning in with comments, etc. But on the whole, the code of practice dismissal, signed off by Minister Meth in August, actually is a pretty good code, and I think it's a forward-thinking code. So, well done on that.

Secondly, I must just say when you say that people can put in their contract of employment that they can go to, they must go to arbitration at the employer's premises, it's probably good for the employer, and it's probably better for everyone concerned. I think it's better for the CCMA anyway, because they have all sorts of constraints. But couldn't you make a small charge to the employer to actually have that at their premises? There's traveling costs, there's recording costs, all that sort of stuff. It probably would have been wise to ask employers to pay something, and I don't think any employer, unless they're really small employers, would complain about that. The charges wouldn't be enormous. Just probably something that you would do.

The other thing, the other thought you would have is, I can't imagine the trade unions are too excited about that because when you sign a contract of employment, you don't really have all that much bargaining power. You either want the job or you don't want the job. I'm not complaining about it, but I can't understand why the trade unions haven't raised that issue. It doesn't seem they ever raised that issue, which is quite weird.

The other thing is, two weeks per year of service for severance payment is going to add another dampener, another constraint on job creation. I can bet my bottom dollar, we don't have any statistics, obviously, we won't have for the next few years, but I can promise you that many employers won't want to keep people on too long if they're going to be paying two weeks per year of service. Just something that ought to be watched in the future. Looks like it might go through, but you ought to watch it.

In terms of the constraint on high earners not going, not having access to the CCMA, I think it's good. I think it's very useful and probably forward-thinking. I'm just not so sure it's constitutional. There probably will be a constitutional challenge to that in due course, but also worth watching.

The labor court and the constraints on judges being able to be in the labor appeal court and whatever, that's all controlled by the Department of Justice, not Labor. I presume that's all in consultation with the Department of Justice. Let's get some feedback on that, is whether the Department of Justice are happy with that.

In terms of the jurisdiction for bargaining councils, I don't think it's fair or even right, and probably wrong, for a bargaining council to determine its own jurisdiction. It would have to go to the CCMA. I, for one, would never allow the bargaining council itself to determine their own jurisdiction. That sounds like sending a fox to go and watch the hens. Doesn't make any sense. But thank you for listening to me.

The honorable, honorable, thank you very much, Chair, and thanks, Mr. Khalipi, for the presentation. I've got some few comments to make and clarity-seeking questions. My my my comment will be on the expansion of of of of the labor court. We clearly do commend the department to make sure that at least the labor court will, with their engagement with the Department of Justice, I should think that it will expand to other provinces. We really commend that. However, my issue is on capacity. Do we really have capacity to do that? And if, if, if, if, yes, capacity in terms of human resource and also in terms of resources and spaces to operate? And what is it that will we will be expected to do in terms of engaging with other stakeholders to make sure that the venues and other resources are there?

Chair, there is this thing of CCMA. When I was busy doing the oversight, one of the provincial commissioners asked me a question as to whether the services of CCMA are for free. And then I answered in two ways and said yes and no. And then he asked me, or she asked me, I don't want to disclose. She or he asked me, why is it that services that are at the bargaining council are being paid? Can't we explore, as, as, as, as government, can't we explore that notion of a dispute resolution levy being paid either by both parties or by employers? So I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm raising this matter to Mr. Khalipi to expand more as to is it, is it doable legally? What implications can it be there? And also legislatively, how can we navigate around that so that we don't pamper, pamper the CCMA with so much pressure, and we don't have a capacity, but we can, as the CCMA can self-sustain itself if there's a levy? So I'm posing this to you, Mr. Khalipi, to advise more.

And then the issue of severance payment. I don't know why, why would we pay two weeks per year? What, what two weeks? Why can't we just pay for what a person has serviced? Is there any legal implication if we say, Deho has worked for 5 years, so when he goes to pension or when he goes for whatever reason that made us a retrenchment and stuff like that, the employer must pay one year equals, now it will be one year equals to two weeks of his or her monthly income. What, what can we, what makes us to pay that? What makes us to do that?

My last issue, modulo, it's on contracts to say the contract must stipulate the disciplinary look. That contract, they say, sign on the dotted line. And imagine a layman on the dotted line, and only to find out that the disciplinary processes does not favor a particular person. What steps can we take as a department or as an entity to make sure that even if that clause is there in a contract for a person who is not as educated or who is not as informed as myself or Mr. Khalipi, what recourse will it be for that person just to affix his signature? What steps will the law protect that person to make sure that there is outreach and education, and you know, those people, ordinary workers are aware of that? Thank you very much. I'm done. It's my last input, Chair. Conclusion. And then conclusion. So you've made your point, honorable. Thank you. Honorable. And last being honorable. Thanks. Thanks very much for the opportunity once more and welcome the input. I want to borrow from the Department of Home Affairs because they issue the birth certificate and they also issue their death certificate. Wouldn't we consider a system or an act that says when contracts are to be signed in any employment, they must go through a commissioner who will look into whether that particular sector is compliant in all and sundry, making sure that an employer is protected. Therefore, if any contract has not gone through the commissioner, that contract, and in this instance, I'm trying to lump the whole work into the considering the CCMA, for example. I'm just throwing an idea that I think we should consider. That's fine. And a sector, a company can employ people, but at the end of the day, that particular contract must go through a commissioner in the CCMA, for example, and then that would be said to be a relevant or an authentic contract that has been entered into by the two parties. I'm not taking, I'm not excluding the fact that and I'm not ignoring the fact that there will be other issues that will be involved in terms of capacity, whether we'll have. But I'm saying we must actually begin somewhere in terms of protecting the workers. And this will maybe perhaps assist in the questions that members have been asking in respect of protecting workers so that when we have employed, when they go into the CCMA, when there's a dispute, it will be on the basis of that commission saying, we have ownership of this, we have protected these workers, and this is what had been rested. And I think that will help. It's an idea that I think we must consider. But I'm submitting that it be considered. I think members in the department will look at how that can be worked around.

The second issue would be around the sitting of the labor court. Justice delayed is justice denied. So, so is the saying. And I think colleagues would agree with me that many of times the labor court, because of limited resources and many other issues that are involved, it takes about three to four years before those can be resolved. Sometimes people even perish before their cases can be heard, and their siblings or their children are left with nothing. Now, wouldn't we consider CCMA offices to be some of the areas where the labor courts can sit? I'm bringing this particular aspect because the centers that have been identified, not ignoring the fact that there are also resources that are involved, as other members have said, but this will help us to facilitate the long process where workers will not get justice at the end of the day. And we put restrictions in terms of the limitations of the period. And also, I mean, some of the individuals, also some of the unions, I know for sure that they struggle, some of them, to pay the labor court, perhaps maybe at labor court costs, perhaps maybe that should also be considered. Because I know for sure, employers, because they have money, they exploit this, and the majority of the people who suffer are our people. It's a fact. It's Africans, blacks in particular, who are dragged upon this thing, and employers using their money. So perhaps maybe this should be considered, not ignoring the fact that perhaps ourselves as well, we need to look into how money should be pumped into that area.

During my constituency period, I met a worker, and this is what this young lady said. She said that she went on maternity leave, which is granted in terms of the law. She came back to the workplace. But of course, it is expected that from time to time she must take the child to the clinic. And as and when she takes the child to the clinic, she's expected to sign annual leave because or take a sick leave. I mean, that's how they work around it. Is this correct? And if this is not correct, if this is not catered for when an employee or a worker who is a female who has exhausted her maternity period, as is in the legislation, is she expected to sign annual leave when she takes a child to go to the clinic to get the antidote, to get all the things that we know are expected on a child? Thank you.

Your honorable, as I said, honorable would be the last. I want to remind, because I see their other hands now. I want to remind honorable members that these are still undergoing a process. So at least the bite you've heard, it's about also helping the public that follows because there'll still be public participation process which may lead to other changes in that way. So let's allow honorable to then make the point.

Thank you, Chair. Good afternoon to you and good afternoon to honorable members, the staff, the members of the department, if there is executive, honorable members of the executive, and guests. Thank you, Chair. Let me first apologize. You might have been getting disruption on my side. I was having challenges with my gadget. I hope they have now been sorted out. In appreciation of the presentation that has been made by the department with regard to labor law reforms, I think the point here, the department would always appreciate the fact that immediately when talking to labor law reforms, everybody gets tar, particularly the labor side of the stakeholders who are standing either to benefit or to lose. And the concerns in particular are those of running down or watering down whatever that has been there, particularly with regard to reforms that sought to entrench the rights of the workers. That is consistent with the constitution. So those concerns should be understood in the context, in that context, not to be conflated with general concerns that anyone would have in that regard.

My first question therefore would be, to what extent are the reforms in fact assisting in terms of speedy resolution of disputes, so that as they do as they do that, they do not in fact compromise the thoroughness and the fairness that is in terms of adjudication, especially for marginalized workers? So the key question would be, what then, how can the speed, speedy speed, speed resolution not compromise that thoroughness and fairness in terms of adjudication, particularly to marginalized workers?

The second question, Chair, relates to the protections. As we know that the dispensation has granted far extensive protections to various categories of workers. And then the question would be, in what ways can the legislation be adapted to better protect the vulnerable and unorganized workers, including those that are in the entertainment industry, across the informal economies, as you would understand, that we've come across on many occasions where workers who are in fact in the informal and unorganized sectors are in fact exposed to the vagaries of being unprotected.

The third one is around the question of flexibility. Whether, for instance, the flexibility is in fact a well-rounded one to the extent that it also places a due responsibility and understanding also from the employer side that they can in fact have a flexibility with the need to ensure that there are stronger protections against unfair dismissals, and as well as job security. So that the flexibility is not looked at at this at the at the one on the one side, but also the employers when looking into particularly to issues of unfair dismissals and as well as job security.

The next question, Chair, is around the areas that talks to the extension of bargaining and organizational rights, which also is another area that is a major concern. And the question reads as follows. I would put it as follows: How do the reforms address the resistance from business interests to extend bargaining and organizational rights for more categories of workers, as in fact currently is the situation where in fact you would find many of the workers, save where in fact workers benefit because of the extension of the bargaining agreements because they fall within the same sector, but there are those who in fact find themselves falling outside? So those are the areas that one would be talking to you. I will come back. I've got two more questions to raise. I can hold back. I can't hear you. That when I put the video on, it means impostor. Good. Okay, let me give honorable. Seems that she had one point that she left out that she thinks must be bra. Okay, but I'm just saying you are allowed to just wrap up now. Thank you. That's when I put the video. So I know it's intimidation. Yes. Thank you, Chair. What's then the next question would be, what strategies can be implemented to prevent potentially erosion of workers' rights during the legislative enforcement on the one part and during also the judicial interpretation that is of phases? The last question would be, how should monitoring and oversight mechanisms be strengthened to ensure that the reforms promote genuine social justice principles as intended? I think the final one talks to the overall, the overarching principles that I've raised earlier on. Thank you, Chair. Thanks for your indulgence and allowing me to conclude.

Yeah, thanks, honorable. I did hear your point about the gadget that was messing you up from participation. But I think that I have to do what I'm supposed to do to just get the meeting back on track. As I give honorable, as indicating she had a point that she thought would have been left out and wanted to be clarified on that minute. I hope you hear me. Yeah, thank you very much, Chair. Yeah, that is a point I left behind. You know, I think maybe even with our policies, that it must also apply with our government and also with the municipalities and also even us in our provinces or maybe nationally in all government affairs, especially in the municipality. That is where the abuse is happening. And also there are so many things that we find out they are happening in the even with other compliances in terms of our department, including there's a lot of non-compliance in our own government. And on top of that, really attracting [Music] there must also be somewhere where not only consequence management, it must be very specific what is it that and also to the compliance of our department and also in terms of the app of the work. Thank you.

Thank you, honorable Mr. Khalipi. Like I said earlier, we understand where each of the bills is at, and I understand that your responses may also be measured in that sense so that the other processes also don't get to be compromised. So I'll give you space on areas where you really think it's important to get them clarified, both for members but also for members of the public who may be following our discussions.

Thank you, Chair. Honorable Bahin asked the question whether should um um the CCMA not charge for the arbitration that is done at the company level. The law already allows the CCMA to determine fees, all fees, including in this area. Therefore, it's not an issue that must be put in the law. The law already is there. If the system may want to charge for determination of fees for any work that they do, the board is able to take that decision.

The issue of two weeks, whether unions are happy or this, honorable members, what I'm presenting here is not a 100% agreement by all parties. Unions did not agree with the two weeks with um um um um the first one, they did not agree with this issue of putting the agreement on the contract of employment. Employers don't agree with the two weeks in increasing the minimum wage retrenchment to two weeks. Therefore, as a department, as government, we have got to decide what is best for society. As I'm saying, the unions don't agree with putting an agreement in the contract. The employers don't agree to increase the minimum, the retrenchment by two weeks.

Now, the issue of the constitutionality of the limitation. We're confident that if it goes to the labor constitutional court, we're confident that we are able to sustain and defend it. We've consulted widely on this issue. We're confident that we'll sustain it. But that's the nature of the beast that we are in, honorable Bahin, that labor law is a concerted area. There will be challenges, and let's leave the labor, the constitutional court, and whichever court wants to decide on this constitution to make that determination. If they make the determination, it makes our law richer, but we think from our side, we are now.

We're not asking bargaining councils to determine their own jurisdiction. We're giving bargaining councils jurisdiction. They still must be registered by the CCMA, accredited by the CCMA. But when they are accredited, they should not be limited only to dismissal disputes. Dismissal disputes, that's what we are saying. Therefore, we're not asking them to determine their own jurisdiction. The jurisdiction is going to be given by the law and the accreditation by the CCMA. The honorable, we need to clarify this issue. All our labor law applies to all companies, including government and municipalities. The only areas that are excluded is the army, the intelligence, those exclusions, and secret service. Those are the exclusions. Every other institution is affected, is covered in terms of our labor law. Whether they comply with our labor law and their challenge. I mean, you've got many cases that have gone through the bargaining council for municipalities and that have gone through to the labor court that are decided in the labor court by parties.

Now, on this issue of Benin, members will remember that the minister has published a notice indicating her intention to withdraw the restriction of inspectors to enforce the BCA around that 7-day period when you deduct money from workers, when must it reach the administrators of pension and provident fund in order for inspectors to be able to enforce this section. That's the issue.

The issue about the two years that we're talking about for startups, that they must not be party to affected by bargaining council agreements. The two, the retrenchment is not affected by that. The dismissal, fair dismissal is not affected. All of those issues are not affected. The only thing that we're saying is wages will be determined by the minimum wage. The bargaining council for the two years, wages are not going to apply to them, but all other rights that are in the BCA that are in the Labor Relations Act apply to all of them.

Now, labor law, members, is a very delicate area. You've got to balance, as I've said, the needs of protection and the ability of business to do business so that the economy can grow. Therefore, you don't, you must labor law should not be overboard on protection. It should not be overboard on business. Both, I mean, I've said this when I started, that's what is important. You need to balance it. Give enough protection. Give enough way for business to operate because without the ability of business to operate, protection is meaningless.

Now, the issue about protection that is raised, protection on probation, and the issues around about legal representation. Why legal representation is not paid? Shouldn't we make a law to ask companies to pay for legal representation in the labor court? And the CMA is free. And we don't think that we can sustain any legal provision constitutionally that says that tells employers what they need to pay for. If you want to charge fees, that's a different issue. If you want to have fees charged for accessing services, you can do that. But you can't tell employees and employers what is it to pay. And that's the issue that the problem that will be in terms of this issue. Whether inspectors for non-payment are strong enough. We believe they are strong enough. They must be implemented. But if members believe that they are not, then members could make those changes.

Honorable suggested that does the labor have capacity? The labor court has capacity. The capacity of the labor court in terms of the numbers, in terms of the offices, is determined jointly with the Department of Justice. That's where the Department of Justice comes in on determining, not on who should act in the labor court or who should not. The numbers are determined by that. And um, any issues, I mean, we've got as net, we are having engagement with the labor court on an annual basis, almost every year, to talk about this issue, whether they've got enough capacity and assistance on these issues.

On the issue of why we don't have levies to pay for dispute resolution at the CCMA and charge it to workers. Well, as I've said, the system has got a responsibility. If they need to charge fees for the service that they are giving, they are entitled in terms of the law to do that. But the delicate part is, if you put fees, then you affect access to justice. People who do not have the money, because they are not paying, they are not going to be able to have a fair justice. And that's a balance that you need to make in charging fees at the CCMA or even the levies that must be paid for the CCMA to for operation. The issue going to be, and you affecting access to justice. And we have not even debated that because it is accepted that CCMA services should be free. The state should bear the cost of the CCMA services. Obviously, taxpayers pay for that. In a way, it's coming from taxpayers who are paying their tax and pay for that. And whether there's a need to then add another tax in form of levies on this, I'll leave it to members of the committee when they deliberate on the bills whether they want to have that.

The issue about why do you have two weeks? Why don't you have your year's salary and say for every year that you retrench, you spend five years, you get five years retrenchment? Well, members, this is the issue. Retrenchment, we might not like this. Its intention is to save jobs because if sometimes if you don't do retrenchment, the company ends up closing, you lose all the jobs. Now, if you put a retrenchment pay that a company cannot afford, then you are saying instead of saving jobs, the company must close. That's the balance also again. I must come back to that word, balancing act. You've got to have a balancing act, making sure that workers who are retrenched, they go in retrenchment with something. At the same time, those workers who are supposed to be left behind, you should not have so high retrenchment that all their jobs are at risk. Now, instead of companies paying retrenchment, then companies liquidate because they cannot afford the retrenchment pay. And that's the balancing act that you need to think about when you decide what is relevant.

Now, the issue about contract of work, signing the contract of work. The idea in our labor legislation is this: workers enter into a contract with their employers. That contract obviously is not going to give them everything they want. Unions have got a responsibility to organize workers and enter into collective agreements that improve on the benefits that are in the contract of employment. That's the responsibility. That's how our whole labor legislation is premised on the basis that there will be strong unions who negotiate collective agreements that are far better than what is in a collective agreement in a contract of employment. Therefore, and that's that's the architect of our law, and we've got to have strong unions who organize these unorganized workers and then enter into collective agreements to better their lot and to make changes on the contract of employment provisions of those vulnerable workers. And that's the issue whether we are succeeding in building those strong independent trade unions who will represent workers out of a contract of employment. If you look on the workers in the mines, the unions, when workers in the mines go in, they sign a contract of employment with the existence of the unions, they are able to better that through collective agreement. Bargaining councils do the same, and many other sectors where there are trade unions. And that's how internationally labor relations and the architect of labor law is that you have a contract of employment which is the lowest level of a deal that can be made between workers and employers, and then you have an agreement, collective bargaining agreement.

Honorable Tubas raised the issue also about this issue. Why can, before an employee signs a contract, must go to a CCMA in the commission? Now, again, it comes back on the balancing act. We want to make sure that we are, business is able to do business. Now, if we do that, I foresee sitting here a long line of employers waiting for contracts to be signed by the CCMA to employ these workers. And the end result of that, employers are going to say, "What the heck? Why am I doing this? If I'm not able to employ people, I must first get a contract signed somewhere." And we don't think that will be good for job creation. It won't be good for employees themselves who want employment. That's why you can't have, if we want to change a contract of employment, we think the contract has got not good benefits or it contravenes the law. The workers are entitled to go to the CCMA and challenge the contract if the contract contravenes the law themselves. And as I've said, the unions, their role is to take workers out of a contract of employment into a contract, a bargaining council, a collective bargaining agreement. And if we enforce that employers must first go to a commission of the CCMA, it will be very negative for employment. It will cause unbearable delays and unemployment in many companies, and employers will just say, will make it take the easiest decision and get and get not employ workers.

The issue about the CMA office being the same as the labor court in where the labor court is. There's this separation of powers between these institutions because the labor court must assess the CCMA work, and it might not be a good idea to have the CCMA and the labor court at the same time at the same place when the labor court must assess the CCMA work and see whether the CCMA have taken the correct legal decisions.

Now, on the issue of the female worker who, uh, taking their child to hospital. Is it right for them to take their leave if they've exhausted their family responsibility leave, which is in the law? And then the law requires that they can take their leave, they can take unpaid leave, and that's the arrangement in terms of the law. There's no requirement in the law that forces employers to pay for workers who are taking their children. Obviously, if workers are dismissed because they are taking their children, the labor, the CCMA will look at that case and assess it on the basis of fairness and make a decision on those bases whether the employer acted fairly on this. But yes, it is allowed. An employer can say to an employee, "You've exhausted your family responsibility leave. You've exhausted your annual leave. Now take unpaid leave to deal with this." Can do that. But a sympathetic employer would say, "No, don't worry, I'll go in and pay." But in terms of the law, you again, it's again that balancing act, members. You can't have a law that says that if you are female, you've got a child, then you should be able not to be at work as long as your child is sick. What does that do to female workers? What is going to happen is that employers are going to say, "Why should we employ female workers?" Now, if there's that situation when I need production and they are, they are not here because of this, not blaming them, those are unintended consequences that in some of the legislation, in some of the decisions that we take, that we need to take into consideration. But in terms of the law as it stands now on this area, employers are entitled to say, "No, you've exhausted the time that the law gives you on these issues."

Now, on the issues that Honorable Nell is raising on how can these changes not take away workers' rights. This is what we've been stressing, that this is a balancing act. We are giving protection to workers. I mean, we've indicated in many areas where we're giving protection, but at the same time, we've got to make sure that we're not killing the economy in the protection that we're giving. That's the balancing act that we need to make. That the members themselves need to make when they make. It's not all about protection. Protection at its own course can cause workers to lose their job. Those are the issues that members, you need to take into consideration when you decide on these issues.

How can these laws be, to the protection of vulnerable workers? We've, I've explained what changes we're making for vulnerable workers, for actors, for people, workers who work for Ubers and all of those issues in terms of the vulnerability and the protection that we are introducing in terms of this law. Give them more rights and protection and organizational rights in terms of this law. And the issue about flexibility that must be from both sides. We agree, flexibility is not about only workers losing their protection. It's about both sides. That's why I said that I made an example that employers don't agree with some of the issues that we're putting on the table. They don't want the increase to severance pay and other issues. The protection that we are giving, the extension of the definition of employee, they don't agree with that. And all of these issues, and labor doesn't agree with some of the issues that we're putting on the table. That's how the nature of the beast that you are in terms of negotiations would need to have that balance between the two towards these issues.

How does this reform address resistance by business on extending the rights of vulnerable workers? As I've said, business has got the right to say no, we disagree. They, as I've said, they have disagreed on on on retrenchment pay, the right to give workers two weeks retrenchment pay, but it's on the law. Although they they disagree with it, because we think it's a good policy position that the government is taking. And if a business, there's nothing that we can do if they are resisting. But if they are not complying with the law, then we need to enforce the law. We need to go to the CCMA, inspectors need to go in and ensure that the law is enforced.

On the issues of what strategies to prevent erosion of workers' rights. The only strategy that we can talk about is to look on what is allowed by international international organizations in terms of these issues in order for us to fall in line with those processes. And I think, Chair, I've dealt with all the questions. If I missed any, members will remind me. I think you've you've made the point. Probably the issue about the oversight, which was the major question that takes into account everything that has been raised. How do you ensure that this now would be implemented and that there's no abuse in the process towards it? Not sure what's your hand about. What point? No, no. I want to put everyone at ease, especially Mr. Khalipi, that I understand where he's moving from. We are making suggestions that should be considered, and all this is not closed, and the suggestions that you are putting here should he should not actually come as if.

He's, uh, defending because, you see, when, when, and, and, and, just a, just a minute, you see, the issue of, uh, that is raising on the children. One of the starting points of the aims of this, uh, changes is to combat inequality in the workplace. It's a fact that the trade union movement has lost its teeth as we speak now, and workers currently are vulnerable to the employers who have money. That is a fact. Fact is an employee, and I, it, it bleeds me when, ourselves at the level of the state, when we tell a woman who has suffered triple oppression at this point in time that, "No, look, uh, if it happens that you have exhausted your days." When an African woman has to raise a child and make sure that he's healthy, when he has to go for injections that we know that has got an impact on his growth, and we don't defend, uh, that particular child. I don't think we can take that hard line. We have got a responsibility to make sure that we come up with laws that are going to defend and make sure that that child grows accordingly, having received all the expected. So, I just, I just felt a bit harsh in the manner in which we, we are responding on these matters, especially on those two in respect of the, the, the children, uh, and the women who suffer on a daily basis because they are unequal at those places, and it is necessary that we make an intervention. So, I'm just saying that this is a debate. We are throwing these issues, and we shouldn't be sounding like coming from our side and from the side of, uh, uh, the state. I see the camera check. I'll stop there.

Yes, you, you, you said a minute. I can see if I don't care. You may think we are already discussing the bill. Of course, Mr. Khalipi, not sure if you want to speak to those two points. Like I said, there was a question on oversight, and the question, I think now, this was just clarity. Um, you are free to respond or not respond to it because we'll still have to put these ideas through, uh, during the participation process. Uh, chair, I'm not sure the question of oversight in terms of how are we going to make sure, or the committee oversight, I missed that question. You can repeat that question. That was the last one, which takes the last, the last one, chair, was what strategy to prevent, to prevent erosion of workers' rights? I mean, that, that's the issue. Um, my understanding of the last question, and that's what I was responding on, on the issue that in education, information given to workers so that workers should know. We should have the discussion and the debate with trade unions and how to strengthen. Sorry, Mr. Khalip, I think I'm also failed by my gadget here. Oh, I'm, I think the, because I was trying to indicate what I'm referring to. Sorry. The question was, how should monitoring and oversight mechanisms be strengthened to ensure that the reforms promote genuine social justice principles as intended? Yeah, you've covered me. That's the question. Yes. Because then the question, like I, I would have understood it, was that everything else that has been mentioned hinges on that. No, thank you, chair. I understand. I understand. I, I think the question is very relevant. I mean, for this to succeed, and the changes that we're making, and even if we're not making changes, for the protection that we've put in terms of our law, our inspection services should get all the necessary support for them to be able to, uh, enforce and inspect companies. And that's why the minister is busy with this, uh, project 20,000. The CCMA, the CCMA has got to have the capacity to be able, in terms of talking about numbers now, members would know that the fiscal has not been what, as, as great as it should be, and many, uh, government institutions have received reduced budgets. The issue about the labor court, I mean, there's no doubt that it takes a long time for decisions in the labor court to be finalized. The, the real, the intention of the labor law was that decisions of the CCMA would be final and binding. Arbitration will be final and binding. Maybe we need to look at this and have the, the committee look at this and say, how many of the CCMA cases that are decided at the CCMA are taken to the labor court on review, and what percentage of those are taken by employers, and what percentage are taken by workers? Because both parties go. So that we can see whether the intention of the law of making decisions of the CCMA final and binding is, is a pipe dream, that it will never ever happen. And then have a discussion by all parties concerned, labor, business, and the CCMA, and involvement of assistance of the committee with their wisdom in terms of what can we do to make decisions of the CCMA final and binding, whilst still giving the labor court enough capacity for them, for those few cases that go to the labor court, to be able to be decided in a very short space of time. For me, those are the issues that we think we need to spend our time on to ensure that the changes, even if we don't make these changes, the current provision in our all our legislations are, are realized by making sure that those institutions have got the necessary capacity. Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Honorable members, as I summarize on this point again, this was really purely from a point of information that should help us that when these come before the committee, we can be able to facilitate that public participation, but as well as deciding on how this law would then help, uh, society. But I think what's important in this whole thing is that we, we, we are reminded that in making the law, it's not one-sided, but we have to create this balance, uh, that we, we regulate in a way that makes the economy to function without taking away, uh, the rights of workers. So, in that balancing, uh, surely there will be those, uh, areas where there's, there's give and take in order to keep, uh, that balance. I think examples have been given, uh, on whether you really close down the business or you look at things in a particular way. So, we would, we would look at that. But the second point that I want to make, which is why I said we must be measured in our approach, is that some of the points that are being made, uh, are points that would have not been an agreement between parties, uh, but maybe as a way of finding a middle ground in a way that helps regulate society. What that means, uh, from being seen to be in the true sense open-minded, uh, is that in that participation process, when parliament time comes, we'll still have to be open to the points that will be raised, even by those that may have engaged at that level, but still remain dissatisfied, so that we hear it with an open mind, which should then help us to, to shape the final approach to the, to the legislation. So, I thought it's important that all the time we must, must put this across so that it doesn't look like, as members, we've already adopted particular positions, uh, before we actually deal with the law once it comes before, before parliament. Uh, with that, I must once again thank you, honorable members, for your participation, but also thank the department for, uh, making themselves available to TGS, uh, who have led the presentations, to help empower the committee without the pressure to make a decision, and that, uh, they will still be coming before the committee, even better when they, when they will be introducing, uh, the bills formally, because they would have taken into account also the deliberations we've had in this workshop, the concerns we've raised, and will better articulate, uh, as they come before, before the committee. So, thank you.

Um, would not want to keep you, uh, on the platform having done, uh, the stellar job. Uh, if you want to leave the platform, we would allow you to leave as we get to the last item, which is that of the committee to approve its program. Uh, we, but if you want to stay, you, you can, uh, as this, uh, meeting is open to members of the public in any way. Uh, committee support. Uh, can you then take us back to the agenda? Um, yeah. Um, okay, just do it properly. Honorable members, as indicated yesterday, um, that we have a quite a short program for this term. We'll be developing a quite a detailed program as we get to the next term. So, I just thought it's important to raise that point for that reason. Um, in the study tour that we've spoken about, which should help us make the comparison, uh, in terms of what others do, in this case, we're looking at a BRICS country, Brazil, that's almost their own level of looking at things with regard to positioning of the, uh, UIF and the compensation fund. Uh, so, so that would not be in, in this program, but also because there was an issue about the budget, as well as the limitation in numbers, and I'm sure if honorable members would remember, whilst we were dealing with the strike plan, honorable Zongula raised this point that he was in another committee, and then, uh, it would appear what was presented there was that stats are separate from what has been allocated. Uh, so these are matters that then need follow-up so that when we come back to do a, a longer program, we are able to look at that. But, of, of course, take into account now that we'll be making this application now with the legislation that's also getting introduced to the committee, and we'll also have to make plans to, to balance all that, uh, going forward. And therefore, for that reason, um, as I give to the committee support to briefly speak to the program, uh, is that we have taken that into account. That's why you do not see even, uh, the quarter four and the annual reports, take them to the right, uh, timing, uh, in this school. But, I think the last item prepares us even better from the point of those annual reports, just to check, uh, the AG related matters. Committee support, Mr. Thank you.

Thank you, chair. Um, as you have mentioned, chair, we are only on the third term before us, um, which only started, uh, this week. It's only for three weeks, as you can see. We started, we started yesterday, the 3rd, with the threat plan, and today, the 4th of September, was the workshop. So, we are now, chair, left with two more slots, which is the 10th of September and the 17th of September. On the 10th, chair, which is next week, we will be expecting the department to update the committee on ICT challenges and interventions, uh, that they have, and also, we asked them to report back on the employment working group, which they held in July. I think it was in George. Um, uh, we are still waiting for them now to prepare those, um, uh, uh, presentations. And then the last slot, chair, which will be the 17th of September, in this particular term, chair, will be the briefing on consequence management cases which were noted by AG and which were reviewed by the department, as well as the two funds. So, what the department has, what plan do they have for those consequence management cases, case by case? So, those are the two, uh, main items that we have to look at in the next two weeks. Chair, I will, uh, pause there, chair. Thank you, Mr. Sagasa.

Uh, honorable members, that's, uh, the draft program to conclude the, the three slots that we had with the extended one for today, as the workshop, which was outside of our, our slot, but approved by, uh, parliament. I now present, uh, the draft program for your consideration and approval. I hope I'm still, uh, I'm still audible. Uh, so, if there is nothing to raise, at least let's get it for purpose of record, a formal mover and seconder for the program to go through, so that we proceed with the other meetings that we need to call. Honorable Copane, I see your hand. Thank you, chair. Um, noting the dates and the items and activities that are supposed to be undertaken. I, I'm satisfied with it. I therefore move for the adoption of this, um, plan. There's a mover for adoption of the program. Can I get a seconder? Thank you, chair. Honorable Nazare. Thank you, Honorable Nal. Second. Thank you. Thank you, chair. I second the motion as, as moved by honorable Go. Thank you, honorable Nan. I take it that because I saw a hand and then it went down, can I then get to know if, uh, there's any objection in us adopting the program? So, the objection, so the program is agreed to. Uh, Mr. Sakasa, I take it this would have been the last one. That was the last item.

Chair, thank you. Thank you. Uh, honorable members. Uh, let, let me then, uh, as we get to the adjournment of the meeting, once again, thank you for doing your part, uh, from yesterday and today, and I take it that, uh, indeed it was not, uh, a waste of time, but it enriches the work of the committee, and like I said, that we are leveraging on the work that has been done also by the previous, uh, term. Ours is to take it to the next level and conclude on those areas that could not be concluded at that time, and that we should do it, uh, together, uh, as a committee that represents parliament, a parliament that represents the people. With that, the meeting, uh, stays adjourned until we meet next week. Thank you. Bye. Bye.