Transcription
Hi everyone, uh, this is Radio William, and today I have finally, I have the opportunity to talk to Dr. Eduardo Garcia. He's currently an ISP with me at the University of Colorado, but, uh, I would say it's not just a colleague or a friend, he's also been a teacher to me. He's been a lot of things. He's one of the reasons I have survived in dental school until now, in doing all the lab work, in, in a lot of aspects, in sense of camaraderie, everything. Eduardo, up here, uh, he's actually an orthodontist from Glendale. He practiced for approximately 80 years, I think. If, correct me if I'm wrong, Eduardo. And, uh, and finally, I wanted to do this, and we have him today on our, uh, for this interview on the podcast. And, uh, talk about, we'll talk about his experience from Colorado, then being an Hispanic and coming to the United States, and then he's been working with international dentists as well. So we can talk about a lot of things, and he has a lot of experience in a lot of, uh, kingdoms. And I'm actually excited to finally have him here. So, welcome Eduardo. How are you doing today?
Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Uh, thank you for the very kind words. I feel the same way. I feel that we, we were lucky enough to be partners at the school, and, and yeah, not, not every time you get a, a person that you, you have things in common. And I think we, we have a lot in common in terms of values, in terms of what we think it's important. And that's, that's, that's really something, and I'm thankful for that. And, yeah, thank you, thank you for having me. I'm happy to share my experience with you in your podcast. And, yeah, you can shoot away.
So when did you move to the United States? And I know you only applied to Colorado University, and you got ten to one, and you got admission before me in 2019, right?
Right. Uh, well, I came in 2018, May, May of 2018, and I started working right away on my application. And I signed up for the, for the National Boards. Back then, it was the, the two separate tests. So I signed up for the first one, and I started studying right away. I was studying all the time, every day, six to eight hours a day, since May until the end of October. That's when I took the test. And when the test was approaching, a friend of mine recommended to take the TOEFL test as soon as possible because the, the applications in Colorado were gonna be open. And, uh, so you were just focusing on one school, which is a very difficult. I, I applied to more than a dozen schools, but it's a very hard chance to apply to just one school and getting right in there, which you did. But weren't you marrying time your focus or chances of getting into a school by doing that?
I know, I know they were very, very slim. But Colorado has that different schedule on the, on the application, so it allowed me to do that. Because I was planning to apply to Colorado, wait for an answer, and if I didn't get accepted, I still had a shot of applying to several other schools. So I had those applications on the back burner, so to speak. So, yeah, I was thinking about it, but I wanted to give Colorado a big shot because, um, I already met an orthodontist that was working here in Denver, and, and I knew several people here in Denver. So I knew I could have a future after school here in Denver. So for that reason, I always prioritized Colorado here. And, okay, one question. So that's a very good thing for people to learn. And I think that's one of the good things about applying to Colorado. You're applying pretty much in October. So, and I got in the separate way, in the same way that once you got Colorado, then you can think, okay, I'm gonna apply for more schools. If I don't, then like you can make your decision based on that. So I think that's a very pivotal point that you've mentioned. So people who finish everything, National Boards, every TOEFL in October, can apply to Colorado. If they get in, that's good. Otherwise, then they can move forward because it is expensive. Second thing, you said you knew doctors in Denver and in the surrounding area. What did they write your LORs? Excuse me. Did they write your letter of recommendation? Who wrote your letter?
One of them did, actually. Was one of my recommendation letters because he worked here in Denver as a lead orthodontist for over 40 years. And so, yeah, I knew he knows some of the faculties at school from a long time ago. He never was a faculty, but he was well-regarded in Colorado in general. So, so I knew that was an important letter of recommendation for me. I think letters of recommendation are huge, are really, really important. And we've talked about this, you and I, before. And some, some applicants have approached us asking us for letters of recommendation. And we, as students, we don't, we don't carry the weight enough that they're requiring here at the school. They do, they do listen to us, they do, um, incorporate us into the application process, but letters of recommendation are super important in my book. Um, for example, in my application, I had that doctor, and I also had two chairmen from ortho programs here in the US, one from Jacksonville and one from the University of Illinois. So, so, one question. So all three of them were orthodontists?
Yeah, all three of them orthodontists, but only those two in the academic field and as faculties and in this case, actually as chairman, which I think is, was very, very important in my application. I know you, you have, you've been, you have really strong connections and you've been working in orthodontics. Your father is an orthodontist. But this is new for me because you didn't have any general dentists write your letter of recommendation, which is very uncommon.
No, but I, I think it's okay in terms of, uh, that two of them were faculties, active academic people that spend the whole day at a university. So they, I think the letter of recommendation from someone like that is super important because they can attest that you're a person that likes to study, likes to go to school, likes to learn something new every day. And no matter your background, you're going to be there, sitting down and listening to lectures and wanting to learn every day. And I think that's, that's what they want to see at the school. They want to see something that he wants to learn.
You're making sense because if an academic person like writes a letter, especially who's teaching in the US, the school will have a certain amount of respect for that professor because they are coming from the same platform. So that does make sense. But you were talking about TOEFL, and I'm sorry, when you're speaking, a lot of questions are coming up. So you would, I know the Hispanic community, and I have friends from the Middle East who had a lot of problems with TOEFL, school, even still had. So what, what's your suggestion regarding that? Because you've been teaching. So people who don't know, Eduardo Garcia actually takes classes for National Boards. He has lectures recorded that he teaches in his, in Spanish, if I'm correct me if I'm wrong. So he's been working with a lot of candidates regarding National Boards. So, and you know more about the Hispanic community as compared to me. So what would your suggestion be regarding TOEFL?
I think, I think the TOEFL is very important. I was going to mention it before that one of the advice I got early on was the, the, the first board test was approaching. It was October already, and this friend of mine told me, okay, you're taking this test in three weeks, you should take the TOEFL test in two weeks. And now my eyes just opened wide, and my jaw just dropped. I was like, are you crazy? I just have three weeks to study and I want to be super ready for the board. He told me, you will be, but you need to take the TOEFL test as soon as possible because the TOEFL test is really hard, and if you don't get the right score, you're going to have to retake it. So you want to know as soon as possible. And so I started studying for the TOEFL test. I applied for the TOEFL test. I, I ended up taking the TOEFL test one week before the board, the first board. And I was lucky enough to get a good score on the first time. But I think that was great advice because if I didn't, I would have still had a lot of chance to take it a second, even a third time after I took the first board test. And so I think that's the advice for people like, don't take the TOEFL for granted. It's a very difficult technical test, and it's not just about English. Sadly, the test is so hard that you, you have to take it and see it for yourself. It's really hard. It's very technical. Uh, you have very a very small amount of time to answer questions. And so it's important to get ready for it right away. And if you don't feel ready, you have to, um, you have to retake it.
Let me, let me summarize what you're saying for the people who are listening. So for me, and this is a really good comparison. So I gave TOEFL after I was given, I've given my boards and everything. But I'm coming from a country where we were a colony, and everything was taught in English. So most Indian, Pakistanis have less difficulty, comparatively less difficulty. And since I was in the US, things were different. And studying in that, like academic, like in the US system, things made it easy. But now it makes a lot of sense. If you're a candidate who thinks he or she is going to have difficulties with TOEFL, as Eduardo is suggesting, give your TOEFL before National Board Part One or INBDE. Now, try to give it before. That makes a lot of sense because I did it later on, but maybe I was comfortable. But usually people have a very difficult time. And this is a very good technique. And I think that's a very new learning for me, and I hope for other people who are listening. So thank you for that, Eduardo.
And I don't think it's a very expensive test. So you can take it many times, and it's not super expensive to, to retake it. And it's a learning, taking it, just taking the test, it's a learning experience. It's, it's so hard that it's, you're gonna, you're gonna take home a lot of tips for yourself. If you do need to take it a second time, you're gonna be way more ready that second time. So, so yeah, I think it's important to, to take the TOEFL test as soon as possible. Do get ready, do give yourself a little bit of time to study, but don't procrastinate it too much too long. Just take it as soon as possible.
That makes sense because, uh, it is technique-sensitive. I made one video on the reading part. I wasn't able to make more videos regarding TOEFL. But yes, it's not about learning English or knowing English. It's more about having the technique, time management, keeping your stress in control. I remember they give you five, six subjects regarding, uh, metrology, history, biology, and, and you should be a little bit aware of those. Input because whenever the science question came in, that was easy, right? When there's a passage on science, it's very easy. But if it's on history or metrology or geology, it becomes so difficult. So being aware of those subjects also helps. So, yeah, this is something. Thank you for sharing that. So moving forward. So you applied in 2019 in Colorado. You got called in for a bench exam that speak over time, if I'm right?
Yes. And you did the interview. How was that full experience? Because you did it earlier before me, and I came in overtime.
Well, it's, it's, uh, it's very stressful. They try to help you, don't make it as stressful, but it is, it was sadly, yeah, it is very stressful. I went to school, I was very stressed, I was very nervous. And I didn't have loops at the time. As an orthodontist, I wasn't used to working with loops. And I practiced my perhaps without loops. And so it was hard. It was hard working on the simulator, uh, without proper illumination, proper lighting, proper, and magnification either. So it was tough. But since I practiced, I did practice a lot before the test, so I think I did a decent preparation. But, yeah, it, it is very stressful to work under those conditions. You and I have done it at the school, this first year, and you know how it is when you have tests and you get really nervous. And so imagine that plus twice or three times the stress level because you're not at the school, you don't know anybody. This is the first time you've seen that simulator. This is a time, first time at this properly. In the morning, you're already your cortisol is high. You're thinking, oh, if I don't get in, what's going to happen? You keep looking around. I, I can totally, even imagining it is giving me goosebumps right now. I, if, and this is for candidates, I think the whole process, as Eduardo is saying, the bench exam, so I didn't, I gave a virtual Instagram. Eduardo gave a physical one without loops and without the lights. I think that's amazing. He, when he passed it and he got in and everything, that we, you have really good psychomotor skills. But the stress management part, even when he's talking about the TOEFL exam, your stress is, I think the whole key essence of this whole process. If you know how to manage stress, you can get ahead in life in this process really fast. Because for example, if you don't get a good score in TOEFL, you don't want to take that stress and fail your INBDE too. Fine. If I didn't get to school, finally, I'll study and study later. But I'm gonna go and pass my INBDE. So you keep things separate. And I think it goes for our family lives as well, right? The school stress, the, the academic stress, and then our family life, and then you're doing other work as well with candidates. Like keeping the stress separate is, is the key thing.
Yes, I think. But, uh, coming to the thing that you're talking about, even thinking about the bench exam is just a horrifying transfer. It's horrifying. Yeah. I, I think, I think, yeah, stress management is huge in this career in general, in dentistry in general. It's very, it's very important to have ways of lowering your stress levels. In my mind, what works, it's just, uh, staying organized. I'm not a well-organized person. I just, it's something that I have to work. More organized than me. Everything in the lab is something that I really have to work for. I really doesn't come natural. I have to work for it. I have to try to stay organized in, in every, every aspect of the school, of the, of the, whatever that I'm doing. And you, breathing exercises, meditating a little bit, having a little bit of time for yourself, even if it's just five minutes or ten minutes every day to just think a little bit about yourself, how you're feeling, why you're feeling that way, and ways to improve that. If you're not feeling well, try having that minute, at least a minute in your, in your day to think about what, what your strategy is going to be to improve, improve upon what you're feeling. So if you're feeling tired, you're gonna say, okay, today I'm gonna work a little less. I'm not gonna push myself as hard as yesterday or whatever. And I'm gonna go, go to bed a little earlier. In order to go to bed earlier, you have to plan for it, and you have to think about what you're going to do. If you, you want to sleep a little more, so I'm gonna have to finish this earlier. I'm gonna have to do this maybe tomorrow, and not today. And, and having those minutes of consciousness, of, uh, mindfulness, I think it's very important for your, for your overall and long term.
And just to add to what, what you're saying, just to add to it, since we go through the same stress pretty much every day, 70% of it, I think one of the things that really helped out after one year is that having things that are reliable. For example, your car, making sure it's reliable, having friends, family, people you know you're gonna rely on. If, for example, letting just the candidates know if I'm getting late, and I text, what, oh, hey, I'm getting late. I'm in the clinic, I'm gonna come late to the class. Can you make sure the professor knows this? And if I know at the back of my head, this person is reliable, it really keeps the stress level low. So I think making sure whatever, whatever, whether it's your phone, your friend, having reliable equipment, even your loops, anything in school, having, make, whatever you have, keep it small, but making sure it's reliable really helps you a lot. I think that's, that's one of the things I could add to it. But, okay, so coming to back to your interview and your bench exam. So you did your bench exam, you did the crown prep, you also did the wax up, and then you went for the interview as well on the same day?
Same day. It's very, very tough. You do the whole thing on the same day, and you have a, you have a very busy schedule that day. And you're doing everything. Everyone has different schedules that day. Like, I, yeah, I did the bench test, I'm sorry, the wax up project, then the, you have the interview, and you also have, um, like a big meeting with financial aid and personnel. You also have, what do they talk about? They talk about, um, all the financials, like types of loans, and how do you get them, requirements for those different types of loans, types of financial aid, what's important for each of, of the loans, and what's something to really consider as requirements for each one of them. And, and you also had a little bit of time with, um, with a small group to share with other candidates and with the students of the program, which was very nice. It was a closed doors, so you were open to ask questions, a little more personal, a little more inquisitive about the program. And the students were allowed to give honest answers about the program and what they thought about it. So that was nice. That was a good moment there. And how was your interview? How did your interview?
The interview went great, and my, in my perspective, I didn't feel pressured. The participants there made me feel very comfortable. And we, I had two faculties and one student in my room. And knowing them later on in the program, I knew they were very tough, and, and they're very demanding faculties. But, but at that moment, I didn't notice that at all. They were very mellow, very forgiving. And my English back then was a little rusty, and I couldn't speak very fast. So they were very patient with me and with my English level. And, and they allowed for some time for me to, to express myself. And I really appreciated that. It was very, it was a nice interview in my perspective. I think overall, Colorado's interview is usually people are very facilitating. Like the faculty, this is overall, like, I think, yeah, the day was kind of okay. And you've been, you've been interviewing people as well, in the, as an ISP as well, so using both sides of the picture, well?
So yeah, I try, I work, um, trying to, to get candidates ready for the interview. And, yeah, try to give them the, uh, a similar experience to what I had, so they're ready. And one of the things I didn't realize at the moment when I had my own interview as a candidate, it was that, um, they're trying to sell their school to you as well. So, so yeah, be a little more confident of yourself. And if you have questions for the school, um, yeah, that's the right time to, to shoot them. And, and yeah, just be sure to be polite, be, be mindful of, I don't know, of the conditions, so that you're talking to a faculty or talking to a fellow student. But, yeah, you can pretty much ask them anything about the school, about their experience there. And I think that's something that that can come, um, can be great again. You can learn a lot from that too. So it can be a learning experience for yourself as well. So, yeah, if you have questions, that's, that's the day to, to shoot them for sure.
So, so one of the things I'm hearing, and that totally makes sense, but you just said that for candidates, you need to remember that the school also wants you. It's not just you who want to get into the schools. So it's a negotiation, it's not a charity. So it's like a deal that you're making. Yes, you need to be respectful, you need to show dignity as a student, but remember, this is not a charity, and you're not begging. You're presenting yourself in the best possible way because it's a mutual negotiation. And that's what we talk most of the time. Uh, and nobody likes, uh, anybody who's desperate, by the way, just to let you know from a psychological point of view. But my next question is, Eduardo, and I remember like you talked when you were even doing orthodontics in Venezuela, and I got to learn a lot about about Hispanic, Hispanic culture, about Venezuela from, uh, Eduardo. You also went to Japan for a course. What was that?
Well, I was lucky enough to be introduced to a technique early on in my orthodontic career. Back in, I was still in school, actually. I was in, in my residency, um, doing my ortho residency, and I was introduced to this, uh, technique by a Colombian faculty that was that visited Venezuela at a meeting and an orthodontist. So he presented about this technique. He will, he recently learned it as well. He had been practicing for about five, six years, and he's seen incredible results. So he shows this amazing results about, um, an ortho technique that is trying to avoid surgery in some cases, not every case, obviously, but some cases that are a little more borderline. And for X reason, the patient is trying to avoid surgery because of medical reasons, before, because of financial reasons, or whatever. And, and they tried this technique, and it works. And so he shows some cases of his own, and he showed cases from, from the Japanese doctor that invented the technique, which is Dr. Rosato.
What's the technique name?
It's called Multi-Loop Edgewise Harsh Wire, and it's usually named by its acronym, which is MEAW. And I, W. And so this doctor from Japan invented it. It's basically trying to control the inclination of the occlusal plane, to trying to reposition the mandible. That's basically in a nutshell, that's what it is. And you can use it on the transversal plane as well. So modifying the occlusal plane this way can also work on lateral deviations as well. And we were very intrigued with. We did the training with this Colombian doctor first. We started practicing the technique for a couple of years, and we were fascinated by it. And then we went to Japan to have further treatment, uh, further training in that technique. And we spent,
One question, was this training all only for orthodontists or also for general?
Only for orthodontists. Um, there were orthodontists from all over the world there. We were like 20 of them over there for a few weeks to spend with this doctor. And it coincides with a meeting. They have a meet, a meeting every year, annual meeting that is international. They do different countries every, everywhere in the world. So that year was right there in Japan. So we were very lucky to attend to both the course and the meeting as well. And we got to see a lot of stuff. So it was very, very good. And when we came back from, we kept practicing it, and eventually we started lecturing about that as well. And so we came up with this three to five days course about this technique, and also combining it with the stuff we were already doing. And that was very interesting, and, and a lot of people appreciated it.
One question. So, uh, I've, one of the things that you mentioned about your studies in Venezuela is that a lot of anatomy comes from Latin, right? Like words like sphenoid and stuff like that. And you learned in Hispanics, so Latin and Hispanic, uh, Spanish, sorry, Latin and Spanish are quite similar. That's what you were telling me.
Yes, when they, when you talk about like, yeah, the names in anatomy and in English, or, or even some pharmacological, um, terminology, all of that is very familiar. So it's really not a big deal to learn in a dentistry in English for us. And also, a lot of the studies and all the newer information is on the articles which is written in English as well. So if you're updated with information, you're, you're probably already reading a lot of English. And just to try to stay updated with information. So, uh, dentistry itself, it's, it's not hard to learn in English for us. I think the thing is to have a good score in the TOEFL test, which is hard for Hispanic communities. So was your DDS, was the DDS or BDS in that role? It's probably more similar to a DDS.
Yeah, but the degree, what the degree is called DDS? Is it six years or four years of program?
We have five years because we don't go through college. You can go straight from high school to the university. So same in India, Pakistan. Okay. So five years. So in five years, you do two years of, uh, general sciences, like all the pharmacology, general pathology, and those, uh, three years of clinical histology, anatomy, and you do some basic stuff on the first year, like, uh, dental anatomy, embryology, all that. And then on the second year, you start to work on each other, on with the students. So you get a little more acquainted with the mouth and the PPE and the protocol and the, yeah, and the sterilization protocols. Yeah. And by the third year, you're ready to go to clinics. So that's what I'm understanding. Like in India and Pakistan, we have BDS, and we had four years of school in which two years were general sciences and everything, and then two years were clinical. I'm talking roughly, that's what they do. But in the Middle East, it's six years. Like people who do it for Europe and Middle East, it's six years. They have four years of clinical experience. You're coming from Venezuela, you also have three years of clinical experience. Did you do, had to do an internship or an house job kind of thing after that?
Yeah, in those five years, on the, on the last year, you do a lot of rotations and externships. You do, and one at the school, you do one on your city where the school is at, and you do one, uh, on a rural place in the country, far away from the, from the, usually far away from the city. You, you attend to school. And those are, that usually that third year is mainly about that. So if somebody is sitting right now in Venezuela and looking at at this video and going through an undergrad or just passed, what suggestion would you give them?
If they just graduated? And I will say, yeah, you can still apply. You can definitely still apply. And it's going to be a learning experience at the least. If you don't, if you don't get in. And because they're looking for people from different backgrounds. So don't feel like you don't have a shot. If you really want it, go for it. Okay? Because they want people from different backgrounds. They want it, they want the student that just graduated out of school, they want the student that's been graduated for 20 years and have two master's degrees and have a lot of experience. They want it all. So go for it if you want to apply, go for it. Um, but yeah, everything is a learning experience for you at that point. So you, you want to apply, but you also want to learn, you want to have experience. So at the same time, you apply, try to volunteer, try to work for someone that has more experience. If you are attracted to a specialty, maybe consider applying for a specialty program first, or you could shadow or, or work for, for another professional that has a specialty. So you're gonna be sort of like assisting to that person on that specialty. And, and that's gonna give you a lot of experience. And, yeah, I think on Venezuela, in particular, and in most of the Latin American countries, I come in contact with, who graduate with very few experience on some areas. So it doesn't hurt to go out there and see more stuff for yourself, learn a little more, try to sign up for every CE that you can. If you're trying to aim for one specialty, maybe those CEs can be more focused on that specialty that you want to pursue. But if you're still not sure, then try to do several ones. Try to do CEs for surgery, for ortho, for pathology, for cosmetics.
You said some areas were stronger when you were in undergrad. Which areas were more focused at during your undergrad?
In my country, in Venezuela, it really varies by the school. Yes. So some, like on one of the school, surgery is a little stronger. My school, in particular, what, sorry, was a bit stronger in, in pediatric dentistry and orthodontics. We, we did have more contact. Usually, dental programs barely touch on orthodontics, barely hours. We did a little bit of cephalometrics. We actually did an appliance. We had a patient, a pediatric patient, and we actually did an orthopedic appliance for that patient. And then you just deliver the appliance, do all the diagnosis, which is the learning part for you. And then the, the appliance gets monitored by a faculty. So that, that was very, very cool. That's something to add to that. In Pakistan, at least, I can tell, like, oh, I think, and this is for a lot of candidates, a country's culture and their economy matters a lot. When I look at Venezuela, because Eduardo keeps sharing, because of him, I follow a lot of dentists and doctors and specialists from Venezuela. The aesthetic industry is very big. Hispanic people are comparatively very good looking, considered in the world. I, I know a lot of Miss Worlds are from Venezuela. So overall, the cosmetic market is very big in Venezuela, as far as I'm concerned. Coming from Pakistan, the things that were high in need were surgery and then orthodontics because of the, even the buying power of people that matters a lot. Like in teaching hospitals, people would come in with a pathology rather than coming for scaling or a restoration or a root canal. They will come when it becomes a whole tumor. And this is, if anybody's watching me, and I think it falls into India as well, but for mainly for Pakistan, like my program was highly focused on surgery. Like I've learned a lot about surgery. But when I came here, and orthodontics, the, my, my department in my school's department in ortho was really good. One of the professors used to work really hard with us. But when I came to the US, it's a lot about restorative. It's about general dentistry, first, and restorative. And that's what we do most of the time, right? Yeah, perio, lots of perio and restorative. I think that's the, the main concern and focus here.
Did you have diaper downs in Venezuela when you were in undergrad? Yeah, we did. But not, not as much as expensive there. Yeah, maybe because of the expense, it was easier to get for some reason. It was easier to get, um, natural teeth. We had huge surgical requirements. Yeah, they were extracting teeth every day. So you just approached them and I'm needing this and that, and they will keep an eye open for that. And a couple of days later, you can go there and they have them for you. So very good questions here. Yeah. So you guys, that is a natural tea. So this is an advice for somebody who's working in India and Pakistan, and now you, and even Venezuela, if, if diaper downs are really expensive, and that's one of the advice I would give to myself, get those damn extracted teeth and start working on them. Do crown preps on them, do class one, class two, if you can buy loops. Eduardo was saying he didn't practice the loops, neither did I. But if you want to pay attention to US, you need to work with loops, which are expensive. But whatever your finances allow, get those kind of loops. Buy knowing Amazon, there are some cheap ones. If you go to surgical, it goes up to 2000, 3000. God knows if they are expensive. But whatever your profit allows, get those loops and get those extracted teeth and start working on them. Because I think that that helps you in restorative fine detail work, and it requires a lot of practice. Surgery, there's a lot of, a lot of, I think it was the way I saw surgery in Pakistan is you learn by assisting. Like they were like, assist as much as you can, and eventually they start giving you sutures, and then they start giving, like it starts off construction, and eventually you start learning it. But it takes a lot of time. That's the, that's one of the issues. But okay, my other question is, I've been intrigued and learning a lot about aesthetic dentistry. And I know you've been directly involved in it. You do, you've done orthodontists, and comparatively, all your colleagues from Venezuela are really good in aesthetics. How would you, okay, just imagine I am a dentist who doesn't know anything about aesthetic dentistry. How would you explain aesthetic dentistry? What kind of dentistry is that?
Well, for me, um, as an orthodontist, it doesn't stop at the smile. Like you have to really look at the whole, you have to look at the whole face. And even before that, the most important thing is the patient expectations. Okay? So you want to really talk to the patient and understand what they want, and see if that's a match with what you can offer. Okay? And, and then you can start looking at the face. And the face, um, you have to, you have to really understand what's important to the patient so you can assess it. And so, for example, asymmetries. If it's something that the patient even didn't mention, and you notice a slight asymmetry, you can even not mention it. Okay? Because if it's a very observing patient, then once you mention it, the patient is not going to be able to look away from the asymmetry. And we all have asymmetries. And that's important to have them. We, we can actually look weird if we hadn't any asymmetries. So having a little bit of asymmetry and knowing what's wrong for right, and that's really important. So there's a lot of knowledge behind it, of what, yeah, you always have to think about the aesthetic patterns, as a range. It's not just one pattern that you're after. You're looking for a range, and you're trying to get people inside that range. And so asymmetries have a range too, and you can, you have to know what's acceptable, uh, functionally and aesthetically as well. Then you can look at the profile. When you look at the profile, especially for orthodontics, sometimes we gave, especially back then, a few years ago, we gave a lot more weight to the profile. And people are not looking at themselves from the side at the mirror. They look at themselves from the front. So you also have to be careful about what you talk to the patient in regards to the profile. And some people will tell you like, when people take pictures at me and I'm not aware of, I don't like what I see. And then that's, they're usually talking about their profile. And they just haven't, uh, thought about it through. So you, you may, you start talking about the chin or the neck, neck to chin line, and that kind of stuff. And they're like, oh, yeah, yes, that's what I'm talking about. I don't like that. And, and yeah, sometimes we can help them with that. Sometimes they have to go to the, to the aesthetic surgeon, and that kind of stuff. So.
Okay, okay. One question. So you said you, Leo, and I remember from my undergrad ortho, we used to see the facial profile from the side, class one, plus two, class three, and we used to make a lot of decisions based off that. But you're saying that's not the only thing we should be looking. We should be looking from the frontal view as well. I knew there was a rule of five that was used, like if you start from the ear, there will be five equal sections, something like that. But what should we be looking from the front as well?
You have to analyze the profile and do those measurements that you were talking about, and the, and the proportions. But when you explain that to the patient, you have to translate that information to the frontal view, and not just explain it from a profile picture. For example, and you can, you can take that information and explain it with a frontal picture as well, and tell them, okay, so this distance from your left bottom lip to your chin is a little too high. So a reduction surgery will be best on your mouth, on your chin, and your bone. And otherwise, we're not going to be able to improve your, your facial aesthetics, that kind of stuff. So if you explain it from a profile picture, for the patient, it's very abstract to know what that's going to look like. Um, but yeah, the profile analysis is very important. It's just that you're gonna translate that information to the frontal view. And it's just that those, those analysis were created from this, from the lateral view. But yeah, you, you can also do frontal measurements. There's the cephalometric frontal analysis from Dr. Ricketts, from Dr. Grumman's as well. What else? Um, okay, so then we go neck measurement. Yeah, if it's, if it's very little, you can work with the momentum, you can work with the chin, with the surgeon, and try to project that chin a little bit. And you're scaring people up here. But see, and I, I can understand. As soon as you say surgery, people like that, they're fine with this middle line, with also with dentistry. But as soon as the knife comes in, and you're right, and that's why I mentioned expectations. I think talking to the patient first and, and learning what they want to do, it's very important. You want to know about their previous surgeries. And if they're, they were exposed to aesthetic surgeries before, then you know they're gonna be open for that type of conversation. But if they're not, if, or they, if they're very young, and they come with their mothers at the appointment, you know that they're gonna be a little more apprehensive to that information. So you have to be careful how, how you present it. And so because you're not talking about something that the patient requires. So it is important. It's the approach is quite different from when you find a cavity and you have to explain the patient what they have and what the possibilities to solve that problem is. It's something that it's a disease, and you found it, and now you're trying to look for solutions. This is an aesthetic problem that the patient does not need to have it solved in reality. And, and, and there's several ways of fixing it. So if the patient does want it fixed, but so the conversation goes very different from the usual medical dental one.
One of the things that I've, I've been trying to understand is aesthetic dentistry. And for general people, and this is my perspective, but Eduardo could correct me. Aesthetic dentistry is not just, we read art and science. Art and science. And I never knew what art is in this whole field. But when I look at aesthetic dentistry, and also in a little bit of surgery, that's when the art comes in. And the aesthetic part doesn't follow mathematical rules. I know there are golden proportions, but it's, uh, it's a walk in the unknown. It's like creating an imagery, a painting, something which you see in Rome or Vatican, a kind of an architecture which comes from your subconscious mind. And what I've been, from what I hear from you, and what I keep thinking is that there's a very important part factor of aesthetic dentistry, or overall dentistry, is the psychological part. And not many people talk about it. And at one point, I might agree that a lot of dentist people who come into dentistry are introverts. They like to work with small things, my new things, and they are not extrovert people, and they hate doing public dealing. I talked to a couple of surgeons about, uh, cosmetic surgeries. They're like, oh, we don't want to deal with cosmetic issues because we have a lot of questions. People keep coming, the expectations are really high. And I think that's not to confuse people, but in a summary, what I'm saying is that the psychological part of aesthetic dentistry, understanding your patient, his need, his culture, his religious belief, and what makes him think that he needs this cosmetic surgery is very important. You might be giving, giving a cosmetic treatment to a person who might need a therapist, and you might end up in a lawsuit because that person is not going to get happy ever, and he's going to take you to the court. Yes. And I think having that understanding is very important. But yeah, it's a, I've been looking, my view about aesthetic dentistry is changing, especially because of, uh, social media now. Like the way colors work, everything. It's, it's a very unknown place with science cannot predict. It's just like Leonardo's. I think it's gonna, I think it's gonna keep getting bigger and bigger. And, and like you said, I, I don't think it's for everyone. I think if you're gonna, uh, dedicate some part of your efforts and your part of your time at your, or your workplace, to do aesthetic dentistry, you definitely have to have the will to deal with all of that that you were mentioning, the psychological part, and knowing your boundaries there, where you're, when your expectations and the patient's expectation does not meet, knowing, knowing that, and, and really knowing your limits. And otherwise, you're going to have use problems, problems, problems. So, so yeah, I think, I think that's huge. That was a big part of my practice back in Venezuela. And I did a lot of aesthetic type of orthodontics and pre-prosthetic orthodontics for veneers, for, for full mouth and reconstructions. And that's huge. That's, uh, it really takes a toll on you psychologically and your energy. And because you're dealing with,
Does it pay financially? Does it pay financially?
I think so. Yeah, I think it's worth, uh, because it's definitely some extra work, and more you're involved emotionally with the patient quite a bit more, more involved with the cases at a more personal level than just the dental part. Um, whatever we find beautiful, it gets emotional. It gets us emotionally involved in it. Whether it's a song, it's a person, it's a movie, whatever is aesthetically pleasing, it attaches to our emotion, and it, it affects our psyche. So it's, it's a well, it's a very in-depth, detailed discussion. But I'm just, one of the things I would like to tell people who are watching this, people like Eduardo and I have seen a couple of them. So we have a class of 40 right now. And as Eduardo mentioned, not everybody is a fresh graduate, not everybody is a very old graduate. There's a mixture of people. But there's one thing consistent, pretty much in most of them, is they want to learn. So whether you're a fresh graduate or have five years or ten years of practice, a specialist, if you have one thing that's, I think one of the most important things they are looking is that you want to be a lifelong learner. And that really, that's something that that combines all of us. Uh, and one other thing I would say, people who are planning to come to US for DDS in future, I think having a specialty certification, fellowship degrees like ortho, prostho, actually helps. And I saw you, Dr. Vikas, is that if you're going to your general practice, you will have a lot of experience from your past specialty. Even though that specialty is not directly recognized in US, but since you have so much exposure, even in your general dentistry practice, you can do all of these things. And you don't need to do pretty much specialization, which is gonna cost you two years of more and student loans, right?
That's right. Yeah. And that's actually my plan. Yes. I, I definitely plan to try to work orthodontics into my, and to incorporate it into my practice as much as I can.
The future without me going to the residency again, like you said, that will only incur me into more expenses, more student loans, and I definitely don't want to do that. And, and I, I just want to get to work as soon as possible. And, yeah, for some others, their conditions and situation might be different, and they do want to go through the residency again, and that's fine. That's totally fine. It's just, it's a very personal decision. And, but if, if you are considering what I'm doing, of going from your specialty back to dental, back to general practice, and then just trying to practice as a general practitioner as much as that specialty that you already have, just know that it's definitely possible. And that's something you could do within the scope of your practice, within the scope of your knowledge and your expertise. That's something you can definitely do.
So, for example, I'm, and I'm going to try putting your social media page link in the, in the description, so people can see the cases that you have done, along with your father, who's also an orthodontist. So they can see more of your things that you have done. One of the things that I want to, uh, talk is that if somebody is a general dentist and he is more inclined to work, and we know the residency system in the U.S. is not the same as it is in Venezuela or Pakistan or India. It's, it's takes so education in the U.S. You have to understand it's capitalistic. And, uh, I'm telling the candidates that everything costs you a lot of money. And when you're in your 30s, every single minute that you spend, you're losing something. So it's an opportunity loss that there's a cost of that as well. So you, when you measure all of it, then you have to see what, which way you're going to go.
But if somebody's a general dentist and he wants to learn more also in the U.S. or maybe in Venezuela as well, what would be your suggestion? Go through a residency or what's the way? Yeah, I think if you're definitely drawn to one of the specialties in the industry, I think you should pursue it. I think if you dedicate your full time to something that you truly love, that's nothing's gonna be able to replace that. That's always gonna be so great, you know, when you can dedicate your full time and effort to just that one thing that you really love. And, and I can definitely relate to that. So that's why that's my case. I definitely love orthodontics. I love working with kids for orthopedics, for example, and changing the way they look, their mandibles, working with patients with, uh, cleft palates or any other developmental issues. And that's, that's always wonderful to impact someone's life that way. And, and also like to work with aesthetics as well. I like to do pre-prosthetics, pre-prosthetics and orthodontics. I love everything about orthodontics. I just love it. And, and not necessarily everything about dentistry. I do love it. I can do it and I like it at some level or another because I am a dentist, first of all. But it's nothing, for me, nothing compares to orthodontics in that regards. I really, really love orthodontics. So if I can definitely relate to someone that feels that way about endodontics or perio or surgery or pediatric dentistry. And so if that's what you really want, definitely go for it. Those two years and those extra expenses are definitely gonna be worth it for you in the long term. And, but if you currently already have that specialty, I will encourage you to think about it at least to not redo your specialty here in the U.S. because you might not need it. Okay? So just come here, do your DBS, which is gonna give you license in the whole, the whole states. And, and just look around the work field and, and see what the, the work and the opportunities are for you, because you might be able to find something that is just the right fit for you for your previous knowledge, your specialty that you already had without you going through school again for your specialty and incurring on those expenses of that specialty.
I, I kind of, I agree with the part that you're saying that, uh, in the U.S., one of the things I've realized that the U.S. is a very diverse market. People who, who, who know, who want to learn more about dentistry. Here's the point that has, uh, what was saying that dentistry in itself is very diverse. Perio goes into its own whole enchanted waters, uh, then this operative, like the restorative part, then the endo has, you know, its own world. Ortho is, is a magnificent field. And then there's surgery. So you can't be good at everything. If you think you can be, then, and if you are, I'm actually gonna come and praise you right now. But it's very, it's rare if you are good at everything and you like doing everything. So what people do is actually pick one kind of specialty they like and they tend to practice more in that. Even if you don't do residency, you can do more stuff of that in your private practice. And one other point that I've been looking at, like in Pakistan, where I'm coming, surgery is very dominant. Is because they control everything because every case is surgical and they are the closest to the medical. But in the U.S., everything is subdivided so proportionately and is effective, is controlled by the system. For example, this, I used to see special needs children in the, in the surgery department, they used to send it to the surgical people. But up here, they'll have the special needs separate. The implant placement is actually going towards perio. That's one thing. Then you have the cleft and lip palate and these kind of, actually the pediatric dentists are doing a lot of surgeries now in hospitals. And then when you see that the systems actually dictate how much power you have and what kind of surgeries you're going to do, that's also a bit of a learning. And not saying you do what you love, you should do it, but it's just that understanding how the capitalist system, how the insurance system and everything regulates. Because the years of training in surgery is going up to six to seven years, like four years, six years, and now it's going to work seven. Because in order to maintain your MD, you need more general surgery training. And that's a dispute going in some states. And I'm just saying when you're 30, you're in your 30s, you have family, you have everything, you try to think about these aspects and you don't want to be broke.
I, I think one of the things that's immigrant is like when you're broke, you're abused. And that's a harsh truth for everybody. Like, not even immigrants. Like, I think being broke is the worst thing you could be. When you especially come to the U.S., you're like, I'm a dentist. And what am I doing up there? Yeah. And I agree with you 100%. There, for example, your maxillofacial surgeon, everywhere in the world, you're probably in your 30s. You're probably in your 30s. You had some experience. You did a huge residency of five, six years. And that's why you're a neurosurgeon. So you're probably not in your 20s. You're probably in your 30s at least. So in these cases, that's where Adrian and I are emphasizing that you have to consider coming here. And if you want to do maxillofacial surgery, you are going to have to do the residency again. But at least come here, do your DDS, and consider working on a on a specific field. Like, for example, just place an implant. People are gonna love you. Or any office having all that knowledge, you're gonna be able to place implants with your eyes closed and work with any pathology that comes into the office and deal with it. And in a great way. And, yeah, without you having to spend another five years doing the residency all over again. That's what you want again, that's, well, you can go ahead and do it. But that's just our perspective that you should consider thinking.
And one of the things I was talking to, and, uh, they had the ISP one, uh, the WHO just came in, they had their, uh, welcome thing. And I met a person from Brazil who's an oral surgeon. And he must be a bit older than I am, or maybe the same, maybe most probably older than me. Had 17 years of practice in oral surgery. One of the aspect is dentistry, and especially oral surgery, it takes a toll on you physically. When you reach your forties, your back, your neck, and no matter how much bodybuilding, stretching, or exercise you do, it takes a toll on you. So that's, that's also one of the things. Okay, so I'm not going to take more of your time. I know it says we discussed a lot and there's a lot. I'm gonna try putting this on social media, uh, and we'll, we can do some discussion later on as well, maybe after graduation. Uh, I'm gonna share your link if people are interested in learning more from you and regarding INBD courses, especially in Spanish language. So you have those courses available and they can reach out to me. I can get you connected with Eduardo up here. And I'll share your page as well. And hopefully, we'll look forward to a more meaningful video. Thank you for your time, Eduardo. It was again, you're a teacher for me. So thank you for your time for teaching me a lot of things. And all the people who are hearing you, you're very kind.
Thank you so much for having me. And like you said, if anyone listening have any questions, please reach out to either one of us and we can expand on any of the, of the topics that we mentioned today. And, and if you want a further training or, yeah, or lectures about any particular subjects of the national boards of or, or how to apply for the schools or any of that, please reach out and we can always organize it. If you want to do it in Spanish language, we can always organize that. And, and just give you guys a date where we're we can only do a Spanish and speaking candidates and we can grasp. Thank you so much. Thank you for having me. Have a great day. Thank you, YouTube. Take care. You.