Transcription
Ready to move to the next level in your product career? I'm from Intentional Product Manager. Join me as we discuss ways to help you stand out in your job search and your career, so you can have more impact and make more money.
Hey everyone, welcome to the Intentional Product Manager podcast. I have a very special guest, Anik Vya, who's a product leader currently on the executive product leadership team at Atlassian, and previously was a Group PM at Google. Anik loves to build exceptional products, exceptional teams. He's worked on many 0 to 1 products, as well as 1 to 100, like with scaling to billions of global users. I know many of you want to be doing something like that, so he brings a lot of experience in that place. And he's an expert in identity, payments, risk, compliance at Google. He's always been recognized as top product management talent. And welcome to the podcast, and great to have you here.
Hi Shai, hi everyone. Nice to be here.
We're going to jump into Google first, because it's just a company that everyone aspires to be at. So tell me more about the Group Product Manager role at Google, and a bit about the role, and then how did you get there? What was your path to it?
So the Group Product role at Google is a pretty senior role, has a significant scope. You are typically managing a group of product managers and leading a pretty significantly important, large area for the company. So my scope was real identity at Google. So what I built for the company was this horizontal infrastructure that allowed us to look at individuals and organizations as real entities that interacted with different Google products, and look at their journeys from onboarding to managing their information, to verifying their information, to then eventually, let's say, if they wanted to leave Google and take their data with them, like how would we kind of have that end-of-life and end-of-experience as well. So end-to-end ownership. And then also looking at how this in-product infrastructure worked with all of the rest of Google. So think products like YouTube, Play, Cloud, any kind of big product that you can think of that Google offers has these real identity experiences intertwined with them. So I was working with leadership teams across all of these different product areas and then driving outcomes for their end-to-end journeys with real-world identity integrations being seamless and smooth. So this is, this is kind of my scope there. And my path to GPM was pretty interesting, very fun. I started at Google 11 years ago, 2013, as an L4, kind of non-PM person. So I joined in a product-adjacent role. It was more focused on consumer operations, product strategy, like informing product strategy and kind of user insights into that roadmap. I did that for a few years and then moved into product management. Normally, I had kind of grown at Google to a senior PM, L6 level, and then I transferred into like the PM ladder at the same level. So I was able to do kind of what they call at Google a ladder transfer. And that transfer was an interesting process in itself. Like there's lots of like interview process loops and artifacts and rotations I had to do to get there. And then I grew to a GPM, L7 at Google while I was kind of in that team. And from the L6 to the L7 role. So the area that I was leading was actually really critical for Google, and that kind of allowed me to kind of grow into this kind of GPM role because of all the, there were two big reasons for that. Like one was that there was this increased focus on protecting democracies worldwide. So there was this 2018 midterm elections in the US where there was a push for there to be transparency around who is participating in these election outcomes. And Google at that time was asked, hey, what is Google doing kind of in this domain? And there was a huge push from the company to kind of look at identities, real identities, especially, and who are they, are they who they say they are? How can we bring confidence and transparency to that ecosystem? So that was kind of my starting point. I looked at building election advertiser verification experiences for us, then went to India, Europe, then kind of building out that global infrastructure. So that was like one big reason. The second reason this area was really important was related to market dynamics. Like more users were coming online. COVID accelerated a lot of like commerce and other actions to happen online, which meant that you couldn't be there in person. So your digital representation, your online identity, your real identity, had to be well kind of understood, verified for you to unlock actions, do commerce, and other actions. So that kind of coincided with me kind of taking over this domain and then it being really important for Google to kind of invest in this area. And the third, like, kind of additional thing, kind of that's adjacent to that is like all the compliance regulations. So a lot of like the world is getting increasingly regulated. So an understanding of like who is acting on these platforms, whether it's the buyers or the sellers or the consumers who are accessing and let's say moving money, all those considerations become really important in terms of like understanding the identity. So my path to GPM was based on some of the market forces, some of the being at the right place at the right time, but also kind of taking on these big complex problems, delivering on them, and then kind of building a long-term product strategy and roadmap, and then kind of selling that to the leadership team, hiring great talent, and then kind of building on those strategies and executing and delivering outcomes.
I'm going to dig into like some of these things that you mentioned. So let's go back to like prior to when you were like formally in the product management ladder. Tell us more about your path of like actual transition. Did you like do certain projects or do certain interviews? People are always curious about that as well.
My path was through a rotation. Like, so I formally rotated and was a full-time rotator working with a product manager. Rotators are at, so it's a formal thing at Google where when you are looking to explore new kind of, let's say, domains or new role types, like product management, you are allowed to actually go and be a part of that team for a certain timeframe. You can do rotations at like a 20% capacity, which is like you are spending, let's say, one day in a week, kind of working on this kind of team, helping those teams with their outcomes, whatever they might be. Or you can be a full-time rotator, which is like you basically leave your team for a duration of time, six months, whatever, and you can actually get and experience the role and the domain in a complete way because you're just then working full-time on that opportunity. So there were also like opportunities to either do kind of a, almost like a bungee, like you go there, you come back to your previous team. Or there were options at Google to basically cut your ties with your previous team and hope for the best, like that you go and do this rotation and then you'll, if you're successful, you basically kind of are able to work in that team. Otherwise, you basically have to look for a new job or look for a new opportunity within the company. So I chose the latter. Like, my manager kind of encouraged it, and like my future manager encouraged it. And also I was like, you know, like, if I want to do this, I want to go like headfirst, do this, do it well, and then know like I'd be successful. So, and I had previous product management experience, or I had previous product management experience prior to Google. I had actually spent a few years being a PM. So I was pretty confident going in. And then the stars aligned, and like I was able to be successful with that kind of transition. But the process itself was like doing the job, being a PM, creating strategies, PRDs, artifacts that allowed me to then take it to the committee. That committee basically decides whether the artifacts look strong and whether you are able to then transition. And at that time, Google also had formal interviews. So I had to actually do the full interview loop, like from like a product sense kind of an interview to a technical interview to a kind of are you able to work with engineers? Like there's all these different interviews that an external PM might have to go through, or PM aspirant candidate might have to go through. And then the last thing is feedback. So you actually have your manager in that rotating team write for you, saying that, hey, Anik is kind of doing a good job with this rotation. Your PE write for you. So my DL, at that time, engineering lead, basically wrote for me. My design lead wrote for me. My operations PC wrote for me. So all of those people, like that becomes your packet, your interview feedback, your feedback from your peers and your managers and your leaders, and then artifacts that you put together. And all of them get evaluated by a PM leadership committee that then says, yes, Anik is ready. And then they do a level evaluation. Can you keep the level that you are at? Or typically, what ends up happening at Google is that you get down-leveled when you move to PM. So you'll actually end up losing one level. But I was able to keep my level. That kind of depends on your experience and what you're doing.
Anything you did that helped you keep your level?
Yeah, there are a few things that you can do to improve your chances of keeping your level. The first one being, how do you perform in your interviews? Right? Like, do you, like this goes back to like how PM levels work at Google. Like, let's say if you are an L5 PM and an L6 PM, there is a difference in like what the expectations are from these levels. So as an L6 PM, we expect you to have like bigger scope, bigger ownership, broader outlooks. Like your vision should be pretty like, you should come off as somebody who can lead larger areas, then just your area. At L5, you're expected to be an expert in your area. You need to be able to lead that part of your portfolio, that feature set, that roadmap end-to-end. But in L6, we expect you to lead an area which might have multiple subdomains under that and be successful in leading that. So when you're interviewing, and answering questions, let's say on product sense, do you only talk about your domain and answer that question in that one narrow view? Or do you actually answer that really well, but then also up-level and say, okay, but my vision for if I had to build a bigger product around this concept is I would do this and that, right? I'll give you a concrete example. And this was actually the question I got asked in my ladder transfer interview, where they asked me to design an intelligent Google refrigerator. And then what I ended up doing was that I designed that refrigerator, I gave them a roadmap, but I said that, you know, like, this is, but for me, a part of a bigger play that Google can do, which will be a smart appliances play. And what I'd like to really build is this portfolio of products that go from a refrigerator to a television to a smart home. Like all of those things should come together into this bigger strategy. And these are my high-level things on how I would think about that one product area. So immediately, you've gone from like being like an L5, L6 PM to maybe like an L7 PM who kind of owns this large area. So that's just a quick example from an interviewing perspective. Like, how do you position things? Do you are you narrow or broader in your perspective? Then there are other things around like what kinds of projects do you pick? Do you have the opportunity to actually in your rotation pick projects or scope that is bigger than the level at which you're targeting to keep your same level? And you push in some ways your leadership, your managers to be like, hey, I'm ready for bigger scope, so that your artifacts by definition show that bigger scope. So when the company is looking at it, they immediately are able to see that. And then really quickly, the last thing is like, how do your peers perceive you? Right? That's a large part of your feedback that comes in. Like, do they see you as a more junior PM who's starting in that field? Or do they see you as a more senior PM? Like, how do you show up? How do you build relationships? How do you deliver outcomes? All of that kind of matters. So it's a well-rounded play you have to make. And if you're able to do it, then you keep your level.
It seems you were very aware of like the difference in different levels and very intentional about doing all these elements to play to that. The project I'm doing, the skills I'm demonstrating, the impression I'm building, and then how I do this in interviews.
Yeah, and I would say I wasn't fully there. Having spent my time like in the PM ladder, like I was a senior PM and a GPM for over, GPM for about three and a half years, senior PM for about another three years. So some of it has refined. So when I answer, it is kind of a combination of that. At that time, I would say I was more naive, but still, I had that perspective. And I had some mentors and some other leaders in the company who were able to actually tell me that, Anik, like this is important. Make sure that you are when you're interviewing, you're keeping this bigger perspective. And generally, like how I approach things is like in a structured way where I would be like, okay, what are all my dimensions to optimize for when I'm going for those interviews? How can I make each one of them the best it can be? So it ended up being a combination of luck in some ways, preparation, and being thoughtful about and intentional about how you are making each one of these be successful. And some of it is just like you showing up with the right mindset. Like, I feel like a lot of times, PMs are the leaders in that space. And when you show up in meetings, you go up to leadership, you're going to customers, you're learning from them. If you have that perspective of you showing up as a leader, you often then exhibit the right things that will make you successful in showing the right skills, the right approaches that people start to recognize. So just that is how I operated. And some of it that was maybe in some ways the luck aspect of it. Like, given that I've always operated that way, it was easy for me to show up that way. And part of it was preparing, understanding the ladder and what Google expects at these different levels.
I love your overall thinking and how you approach these things. So let's talk a bit more about day-to-day at Google. I'm not going to ask you a typical week question. Tell me about maybe like some of the projects or missions that you've led, and just to give a sense of scope at both the senior PM L6 level and then the Group PM L7 level.
So over the, let's say, the six-ish, seven-ish year time horizon, there were a few key priorities that I helped unlock for Google. And I would say they were across three big dimensions. The first dimension was around how do we help build trusted ecosystems? Like, how do we enable Play as a product to be the best version of itself, where the publishers of apps are trustworthy, their apps are adding value to users? So that is one consideration. The other side of it is like, people who download those apps and use those apps, are they satisfied with what they're getting? Do they see the right value that is being created for them? So how do we create these trusted ecosystems? And you can take that same example to Ads, you can take it to Cloud, and really YouTube creators, all of those graphics. And they, a lot of it is anchored in this identity, and knowing who you are, who you say you are, kind of answers. And I was able to enable, build those experiences. And that's kind of one dimension to it. The second was like the business outcomes around compliance. Like, are we compliant to the various regulations that apply to different products that we launch across the world? Google is probably one of the most diverse companies in the world with the types of products it has, the wide range, and its availability across the world. So compliance and regulations are a complex beast to be able to wrangle and do the right things. And there's a lot of compliance obligations when it comes to money movement. Like governments around the world want to know that the money that is coming into the country is being transferred, is not, as an example, laundered money and things like that. So there's a ton of those payments compliance regulations. And then there is a lot of newer regulations that are around not money movement, but just identities, like age assurance. Like, are the users on your platform over the age of consent, are over the age of 18, or whatever that age is in that country? So I led a bunch of these compliance programs for Google, including Global Kind Age Assurance, as an example, where I had to make sure that Google was compliant. And the third kind of area was around just, you know, pure risk mitigation. Like we have a really rich data set around users, their interactions on different products, their identities. And I was able to actually build this infrastructure that allowed us to do really effective risk detection steps, and then also risk mitigation. Like what do you do if risk is identified? So generally, trust, where elections and other related efforts kind of come together. The second being compliance, and the third being kind of pure trust and safety, like protecting Google from abuse. And over the years, trying to your original question, as a senior PM and then a GPM, these were the three product outcomes, business outcomes I was trying to optimize for. The starting point was more trust-focused, and then I kind of increased my scope as a GPM to include these compliance outcomes, to include these risk outcomes as well, and building that horizontal infrastructure for all of these different products in the company to be able to get good outcomes along these three dimensions.
Just looking at your recent transition, so you know, Group PM, you were leading all these initiatives, and now you're Head of Product, AI for Confluence, Loom, and Trello, as per your LinkedIn. First of all, are you an AI expert?
No, I'm not.
Have you worked on AI before?
I have. One of the teams I was leading was actually an ML team that was transitioning to AI. It was a part of my portfolio that did document-based AI. Very small fraction of it, but definitely I wouldn't say I've worked in AI or GenAI before.
Yeah, so how did you position yourself for this role, which seems to be like very much bringing AI across Atlassian products? Tell us more about this story of this transition, especially in this tough job market.
So there are a few things to this. The first is how do you position yourself and what matters in these kind of transitions? What are hiring managers or these like companies looking for when you are joining them, let's say in their executive kind of leadership teams? The second is how do you build your skill sets to be ready for these opportunities, the best you can, to be able to show that you know enough, you're dangerous enough, and are able to build toward this expertise that you eventually have to have, AI in this case. And the third is like the mindset of the hiring manager. Like what do they optimize for? What do they value? Do they value deep domain expertise, or do they value a great craft, and the right kind of mindset, first principles kind of approach? And does that kind of really give them enough signals for them to believe that this person can ramp up and be a domain expert? So all three matter. So in my transition, in my experience, like when I was looking to move out of Google, I had a few offers with different companies. So and these principles like came from these multiple experiences, not just one experience. I had offers within Google and then I had offers outside of Google. So but the principles remain consistent. So the first, to like, what how do you showcase yourself, right? Like what do you can bring to the table as a product manager? I would say you are the business lead, you own business outcomes. That's the first mindset that you need to have. You need to care deeply about customers, you need to care about their pain points, the jobs to be done, and everything else follows. So are you bringing that business kind of mindset, impact-driven mindset to your conversations when you are going through interview processes? Before even you have the interviews, you have to get there. You have to get the foot in the door, you have to get the first interview, and the process starts from there. And a lot of my experience, like all the offers I ended up having were from people in my network, people who I knew, I had worked with, or I had known their work, and they were the ones who were like, hey, Anik would be a good fit for this opportunity. And then you have to do everything right like after that. You have to be really good at your interviews. You need to do all those things. But that foot in the door is important. So I'll start there. And getting that kind of network engaged, keeping it active. And I didn't do it perfectly. I have lots of learnings over that, and we can discuss that separately. But but like, I think that network is critical. And you being very thoughtful about where you apply. You don't want it to be like you are applying everywhere and then hoping for the best. No, you have to be intentional. You have to be like, where are you, who are you reaching out to, how are they going to position you for that opportunity? Right? And you doing that is critically critical. And once you've done that, right, then the second perspective, which I was talking about, comes in is how do you position yourself? Right? Like for me, like I was looking for the right next opportunity, the right next manager who I was excited to work with. And I really wasn't too opinionated about which domain I'm going to begin in. I was like, you know, like the way I had this conversation with my manager now at Atlassian was that I want to be on your leadership team, and I will actually help you solve the problem that you need me to solve. Right? And through the process, he was like, you know, AI is top of mind for me. Can you help me solve that problem? Right? So you're positioning as like that business leader who wants to deliver that impact, wants to solve the right things for the users, is kind of the differentiator for you. You're shattering a myth that a lot of PMs have. That oh, okay, so for you to succeed as a product manager, as a product leader in this area, you need to be an AI expert. And you now talked about positioning yourself. So what was your positioning?
So as I said, like my positioning was that, hey, like I am a seasoned product leader who can drive business outcomes. And if AI is the means to that end of those business outcomes, I use AI. But not everything has to be solved through AI or will make sense to solve through AI. So that was kind of my main positioning. But then also with that, I showed my domain expertise through the small team that I was leading, to my own research. I've been playing around with ChatGPT, with Claude, with now Llama, right? All of these technologies, I had a working knowledge of, but I wasn't an expert. I wasn't doing that as a day-to-day job thing. Right? Like which is probably the best way to learn is when you're doing it as your day job. But I was still trying to keep up with trends, I was trying to learn, I was trying to use it for my own use cases as best as I could. Gemini as well, within Google, we had access to Gemini. And that was the second pillar that I have in my mind is that you want to also show that you can learn or you are interested in learning, and you have that curious kind of mindset. As a PM, you need to be deep in technology, you need to be a technologist at heart, in some ways. Right? So a combination of those is what you can do. And then there's the third thing, which is the mindset of the hiring manager and the teams, which we can get to. But yes, like that myth of you need to be an AI expert is probably isn't, I would say, the biggest contributor to success. Right? And another kind of side thing I'll say is that there are very few AI experts in the industry right now. Like there is a small group that actually knows it. But people haven't really gone deep everywhere. Like how many success stories do you see with true business applications being built with AI? There are a few. There are many more that are coming. But it's a small set of what you can call super users or experts on AI. It's such a rapidly evolving field that even experts can actually be like, okay, you've missed out on a couple of months of advancements. It's such a rapidly changing field. So that's the other thing. If you are aspiring to be an AI PM, don't feel like you are behind in some ways just because you're not working on AI day-to-day. There are very few real experts in the field. But if you have these core foundational PM skills that make you a really strong, effective PM, you can translate them to actually be a strong AI PM as well.
I have a guess what you're going to say, but I'll let you talk a bit more about the mindset of the hiring team. Demystify more of that for us.
To me, like this is what I evaluate in my leaders, my places where I would like to go and work at. Is there that kind of mindset that, hey, I'm going to hire a great person, a person who I think has a strong craft, who can operate in ambiguity, who is thoughtful, collaborative, wants to have fun building things, and then everything else follows. Domain expertise follows, AI expertise follows. All of that is a second-order thing in some ways. Because those are skills you can learn. You can have experts who can collaborate. You can have a fantastic engineering lead who is an AI expert in some ways, that can actually build you up and partner with you in launching things that you would want to for those business outcomes. But that mindset, having that open mindset as, hey, I'm going to hire the best person for this job, regardless of if they have the domain expertise or not, is what I value. That is how I hired at Google as well. I hired a ton of people who had no identity experience, and I was looking for the science around, hey, are you a coachable PM? Especially at more junior, L4, L5 levels, that was my sole thing, like, I can teach you to be a phenomenal product manager because I know that craft. But you need to be willing to learn. Are you coming with this kind of mindset? And then you're set up to fail, right? And you can build all the domain expertise. If you can, are you collaborative? Are you inquisitive? Are you good with complexity? Do you enjoy complexity, or do you shy away from it? Right? So those were some of my things to my bar as when I was hiring. And then some of that translates to who I want to work for, right? Like, do they share some of those mindsets?
It seems like you're looking at coachability at certain levels, then maturity in terms of craft at higher levels, and then across these, as the world evolves towards AI, it's more openness and willingness to jump in rather than, hey, you know what, RAG is, and you know, everything about the difference between small language models and large language models. Just words I heard today, so I'm just throwing those in to summarize. You're differentiating as PM craft rather than AI expert, and AI becomes like the enabler for the outcomes.
Exactly. Yes. I want you to be like the business outcomes person first, and who's ambitious, who's willing to take on complex problems at more senior levels, for sure. Right? And even at, let's say, the L6 levels, I would still look for the coachability aspect of it. Because the craft bar across the industry is not standard. You'll, a lot of people have become have been PMs for a while, but they have really not done PMing well, or they've done the best in whatever leadership environments they were at. Right? So as you start to redefine or even reset some of the ways you would build products, or how do you partner with all the different people who you need to deliver outcomes, there has to be some unlearning and relearning. And I do that myself. I believe feedback is great. I have blind spots, everybody does. So the same thing happens as you when you come in at more, some of these mid-level seniority levels, where you should be willing to unlearn and relearn. And so coachability to me is more progressive, especially important at more junior levels, but also more applicable at mid-senior levels as well.
I'll ask you one last question in the interest of time. So you have already shared some of your thinking, but if you were to offer some advice for product managers in today's hiring tough job market, changing landscape, what would be like top pieces of advice?
There are maybe three things I'll suggest. The first one is invest in your network, right? And invest deeply in your network. Like, don't do it so that you're just doing a surface-level thing. And it takes time and energy, right? If you are looking for a job today, it's hard, right? You have to be starting sooner on that journey. But wherever you are in your journey, like do that anyways, right? Genuine connections, reach out to people who you enjoyed working with, whether in your company or outside in your network. So that's critical, especially in this job market where there is so much supply that everybody's whining for that, hey, just look at me, talk to me. That's kind of really hard. So I would say investing in your network is critical. And in there, how do you leverage your network is also really important. Where make it easy for the person who you're contacting for them to help you. Right? It's not on that person to actually go out of their way. They're doing other things, they have their job, maybe there are many people reaching out to them. How can you make it easy for them to see your fit, to direct you to the right opportunity? Right? All of that is a part of effective networking. Building genuine connections, helping people help you better is absolutely critical. The second thing is, let's say you have the foot in the door, right? Like you have the first interview that's lining up. Now, how do you actually make yourself really the right fit for that opportunity? That takes deep research, potentially leveraging the person who in your network who helped you get there. They have an interesting, hopefully, an insight, an insider perspective on how that role works and what it takes to be successful in that company, that culture, that role. So leveraging that is important. Also, in my experience, people under-leverage their recruiters. People who are helping them through the process, like they are actually one of the really insightful people who understand what that process looks like. Like when I hired at Google, my recruiter was my best buddy. Like I would spend a lot of time defining the job description, telling them about what kinds of candidates I was looking for, what my expectations are. When I used to review resumes and look at the candidates that floated to the top, I'd tell the recruiter, hey, this is why I'm selecting these candidates, and this is why I'm rejecting these candidates. So the recruiter has actually a really interesting perspective and almost the hiring manager inside voice when they are actually there. So leverage them, especially if you clear the first recruiter and you're going into the interviews. Talk to them. It's in their interest too. They want to see good candidates being hired. It's a part of their performance evaluations, it's how good are they in screening and then getting people successfully done. Right? So that's the second thing I would say is leverage your recruiters, have that perspective on that job and that team that you're applying for, use your sources and your network. Reach out to people. The third is, in the interviews themselves, as PM interviews, it's like, especially if you're looking at Fang or Mang kind of companies, the process is pretty defined. You can actually go to, like, Exponent or like, I think Chat has some really good resources there, where you can actually really understand the process very well. Right? And then once you have the process well understood, practice, right? Like many of these interviews are not things that you can just show up one day and be really effective. When I was doing my ladder transfer at Google, I got this advice from a PM lead, and he was like, you know, Anik, before even you start your prep, do a mock interview and see how you do. And I did that mock interview, and the rating I got was no higher. So I failed miserably at that first interview, and that kind of opened my eyes. I was like, no, no, no, I need to invest in these areas. I need to practice. I need to get to a point where these interviews should feel like fun. If you're a good, strong product manager, these interviews are actually designed really well, where they test your right skills and the right mindsets that you need to take. And towards the end of the process, I was having fun.
That's nail on the head. If you enjoy these interviews, you will do well. If you don't, you just never get to that.
Yeah, yeah. And then the last quick thing I'll say is, once you have done all of this, right, your journey doesn't end. Make sure that you are reaching out to people who interviewed you, add them on LinkedIn, send them thoughtful notes about your experience. If there were any questions that were open, or things that you would have wanted to clarify, feel free to reach out to them. Make it easy for the hiring manager to hire you, in some ways. You can do a bunch of those really good things. But that's kind of my high-level quick recommendation on interviewing.
I just quickly picked on a theme, which is like, you're sort of making every step easy for other people so they can help you and sort of make you the obvious choice, starting from people who want to help you all the way till hiring manager and interviews and following up with them and everything. It's like eliminating friction from products, similar to that, you're trying to do that.
Anik, thank you so much for this wonderful input. How should people connect with you? I'm sure people will want to follow up with you after the podcast.
Sure, you can find me on LinkedIn. Anik Vya. I think my LinkedIn is Anik Vya, and we can add it in the notes here. I'll put it in all the descriptions. That's currently the best way to reach me. But yeah, really happy to be here on this podcast with you, Shai. It's nice to know you, and I'd love to keep in touch. And yeah, please let me know if there are questions, if I can help in any way, I'm happy with.
Well, first of all, congrats on your new role. Thank you so much for doing the podcast, and I'm sure a lot of people will reach out. And of course, we'll be in touch. Thank you.
Hey, be sure to check out our website at intentionalproductmanager.com to see how you can level up in your career.