Transcription
In focus with Jeremy Saffron is brought to you by Swan, the real Bitcoin company. Welcome back. I'm Jeremy Saffron.
Global markets are navigating a high stakes tug-of-war today following an address to the nation where President Trump signaled harder strikes against Iran. We're now seeing reports that Iran and Oman are drafting a protocol to monitor traffic through the Strait of Hormuz. Now, this news has caused oil prices to retreat from their session highs, and it's also helped stocks par some of their earlier losses.
But in the crypto sector, the stress seems to remain here. According to on-chain data, the largest Bitcoin holders have kind of turned into net sellers right now, and public companies like Riot Platforms continue to reduce their holdings. But at the same time, legacy firms like Franklin Templeton are pushing deeper into the space. So, who's right? Are we looking at a capitulation in a broken market or a shakeout that sets up for the next major leg higher?
Now, Michael Turpin has argued that Bitcoin is in the fall phase of its cycle with more short-term pain possible, but that the long-term structural case remains intact. Joining me now to break down the volatility is Michael Turpin. Michael is a true pioneer in the digital asset space, having been a strategic investor and venture capitalist in the industry since 2012. Good timing. Uh, he currently serves as a founder and chief executive officer of Transform Ventures, uh, and as the author of Bitcoin Super Cycle. Michael has developed a four seasons kind of framework to track market patterns and institutional behavior.
Now Michael, you've seen every major boom and bust in this sector for over a decade. Welcome back to Kitco.
>> Thank you. Back. And now I got to chat to you about kind of the volatility because your framework is built around recurring time patterns, but you know, obviously today we're dealing with massive geopolitical volatility. We had Trump escalation followed immediately by this report of Iran and Oman's protocol for the Strait of Hormuz. I bring that up because how does your cycle model account for these types of kind of rapid external shocks?
So that's macro, and macro is less important than the supply and demand and the fear and greed that has repeated every single cycle. Satoshi in the white paper and his supplicant writings said that as long as the amount of net buying of Bitcoin in any four-year, um, period between halvings is higher than the amount of new Bitcoin mined, the price has to go up. It's math. And so far, that's been true. First halving was $12. Second halving was $670. Third halving was $8,700, and the most recent halving in 2024 was $64,000. All of the volatility that scares people off or brings them in, um, is based on fear and greed. And I identified, uh, as far back as 2015, my thesis on seasons of Bitcoin, that is, there are, um, behaviors that happen in the exact same order every cycle based on fear and greed. Bitcoin spring happens today. The halving. Miners all of a sudden wildly unprofitable because they have the same expenses and half the revenue, but instead of it going down, it stays flat because for every selling, somebody wants to buy. Bitcoin summer is the day you reach a new all-time high, and it goes up like a rocket ship. That's when the bubble pops about 9 to 11 months later, and then when the bubble pops, that's Bitcoin fall. That's what we're in right now, and that's when retail, in particular, panics in at the top. They're panic selling at the bottom. And that gives the opportunity for people like me who understand the cycles to buy in at the bottom and then just ride it all the way up to new all-time highs, which has happened every single cycle. The longest period is Bitcoin winter. That is the 18 months or so that between the capitulation event that I believe is still coming in roughly October, one year after the bubble popped, and, uh, the next halving, which is going roughly, uh, March of 2028.
>> Yeah. What, what kind of specific behavior are you watching right now that says sentiment is stretched enough to, to buy against?
Well, um, you know, um, I, I also have one Bitcoin Super Cycle Fund, and we've been buying anything below 60K. So, we've only had one, uh, one, uh, one buy so far, but, uh, we've got things from 60 all the way back down to, uh, to 40. And, uh, I think it's going to go down between 40 and 55. Um, and again, the macro has not been that big of an effect. If you look at what the price of Bitcoin was the day before, um, the, the Iran war, it was 68,000. Yesterday, 67,000. I think it's up to 66. It's been pretty flat. So, that has not been as big of an effect as, um, you know, the supply and demand and the fear and greed that happens in Bitcoin fall. You'd mentioned about, uh, selling. That was really immediately after, um, the several months after the, um, after the all-time high, and many of them just had planned on selling at the top of the bubble, like, like, like me. Um, and, um, you know, just the other day, there was a, uh, Satoshi-era whale wallet that bought 12,000 Bitcoin. So, um, it's starting to happen that some of the ones are saying, "Low enough. I sold at 110. I'm going to buy back at 65." And, uh, you repeat that a few cycles and you do quite well.
>> So, I mean, the core part of that kind of ratchet effect in the thesis is where institutions take Bitcoin out of circulation, but, but crypto quantities, broader market selling is still kind of overwhelming that demand with whales now distributing. What tells you that the structure is kind of still intact?
>> Yeah, they are not distributing anymore. They are not buying right now. Distribution happened at the top, and, um, you know, there's two different forms, maybe three, of institutions that weren't in here four years ago. Um, the biggest one is ETFs. Um, and the ETFs is really retail. I mean, it's not, you know, BlackRock buying for their own account. It's, you know, retail that was afraid of opening up a Coinbase wallet four years ago or going onto MetaMask and they're like saying, "Oh, now that, uh, you know, my financial advisor says I should put 5% of my, uh, my overall assets, um, into, um, into an ETF, either Bitcoin or Solana or whatever the thesis is." Obviously, we believe Bitcoin is the most important one to have most of your digital assets in for the risk-reward. Um, you know, that, uh, they tend to act like, uh, retail does every, uh, cycle, first-generation retail. And you sure enough, you see that there's, there's net outflows when the price is down and net inflows when the price is up. And that's the exact opposite of how you should be behaving. On the other hand, the DATs, particularly led by Michael Saylor, um, they've been basically, uh, structured as permanent capital, never selling. And so the more that you have there, I mean, Michael Saylor is certainly on track to have a million Bitcoin in the next year. And I think his ultimate goal is to have maybe 2.1 million, which would be 10% of all Bitcoin. And that's not going to move. He's not selling. He's got this amazing structure where he's got several different instruments totaling $42 billion now to buy.
>> Yeah. When you brought up ETFs there for a second. How exactly has it kind of changed? I remember when we first started covering it, there was a lot of excitement about these spot Bitcoin ETFs coming to market. Have they made Bitcoin structurally stronger or, or just more tied to kind of the broader macro flows and institutional positioning?
>> I know. I think they're more acceptable for retail that hasn't yet been in. So that increases the amount of, uh, net Bitcoin, whether it's, you know, abstracted through an ETF, it's still buying Bitcoin. Um, but again, so far, um, the ETF buyers are overwhelmed. Um, you know, retail four years from now, they won't be. They'll be second generation, um, and maybe some new ones come in, but the new retail tends to act every single cycle, um, like scare the little pup. They go in and they panic buy it at the top because all their friends are making money, and then they panic sell as soon as it goes down. And that's the exact opposite of the, you know, this isn't unique to Bitcoin. I mean, Rothschild hundreds of years ago said, "You must buy when there's blood in the streets." Blood.
>> The treasury thing has been interesting. I mean, we've talked about it a little bit. We're seeing those Bitcoin treasury sellers like Empire Digital, Genius Group. They're kind of, they, they fully exited their positions. They're not small retail holders. Does that challenge the idea that this new class of owner is fundamentally more patient and, and strategic?
>> Well, I think the new out of DATs, and I'm working with right now that's looking, uh, at potentially launching one, uh, made a mistake of immediately buying Bitcoin at the top. They thought, "Oh, it's going, we're acting like, you know, like, like newbies." And, um, I think they just figured that, you know, hit while the while the iron's hot and raise a lot of money and immediately buy Bitcoin and keep buying Bitcoin forever. Um, and the problem is that the market is not as patient. I mean, you need to be as patient as a biotech investor if you're going to wait through all the cycles as a public market, uh, investor who's used to quarter-by-quarter results. I think the mistake is that most DATs should have raised when, like VCs do, raised when, uh, there's bullish sentiment, but then how long had bought when there's bearish sentiment?
>> Yeah. Do, do you think other treasury companies can realistically replicate that, or, or is Strategy kind of in its own category?
>> I do believe, um, that are, are coming on board. I know of a couple of them.
>> Yeah. Interesting. Interesting. You got to give me a little insight here. I mean, it, it feels like, you know, even the sovereigns are looking at Bitcoin a little bit on that strategic reserve side. We've seen it with gold where there was a little bit of central bank selling. There was some forced illiquidity that needed to be covered. Is that kind of what's happening with the price sensitivity on the Bitcoin side, too?
>> Well, we're, we're just at the cusp of the, you know, the prospect of having, um, you know, sovereigns, uh, uh, have strategic reserves for Bitcoin. And a lot of it has to do with the, um, average age of the voter. Um, if you look in the United States, I saw a statistic that over 50% of millennials have exposure to Bitcoin and crypto, um, as opposed to a very small percentage of, uh, you know, 60-year-olds. You know, you've got a lot of experience in this game. You're also in a lot of different rooms, boardrooms. You talk to a lot of people. What are you hearing from the venture side right now? Is capital coming back into crypto in a serious way? As you mentioned, those big whales waking up again. Is, is this the, the beginning of that stacking event?
>> So, the whales are different than the venture investors, right? The venture investors are looking for, looking for new tokens. Um, and again, I'm a, um, a general partner at, uh, Kuma Capital, which is a fund of funds for early-stage smaller crypto VCs, as well as a GP at Sigma, which is, you know, just had completed its bull market, and, uh, now they're looking for the price to fall to be able to get really good deals on tokens they believe in, and that's just, you know, again, same, same thesis of, uh, sell high, buy low, but on a venture perspective with a longer time frame. Uh, I've noticed that with altcoins, unlike Bitcoin, Bitcoin has had a higher high every single cycle. It's been very predictable, and I expect that that's going to happen, despite diminishing returns, um, for at least the next 20 years because we only have 4% of the world that has exposure to Bitcoin. It's about seven or eight percent for crypto overall. And yet, um, we're 96% out of Bitcoin in terms of the amount that's been mined, and it'll take 115 years to go and get the rest of it. And so at some point, you're gonna have a supply shock. And that typically happens in Bitcoin summer. And when you have supply shock, that's when all of a sudden people really FOMO in. We had a little bit of supply shock in October of 2013 when literally Coinbase just was shut down every day with, with, you know, strategic, sorry, with, um, you know, with going offline, and the rumor was that they just ran out of coins to sell. And I believe that, you know, with a fixed supply of Bitcoin and an all-time low right now of, of the last five years or so, the markets, and this is in a bear market, that when you get to the next bull market, there's almost no new coins coming on board. This, uh, you know, 450 a day now. Next halving, it goes to 225 a day, and Michael Saylor will buy that and plenty more of himself.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean, you know, that's a, a pretty interesting chart, too, right? I mean, it should take that price to new highs, almost like a squeeze. Hey, as you look for for new venture opportunities, which parts of the technology stack are kind of getting your, your attention most right now? You mentioned it, but is the opportunity more in new tokens, or is it in that underlying infrastructure being built around, you know, payments, AI, digital assets, that kind of thing?
So I consider it to be sort of like a, I'm a barbell investor. So I've got, uh, Bitcoin is the, the solid, sort of, you know, reliable, um, you know, investment that always goes up over time. And if you, uh, you know, sell at the top and buy back at the bottom, you, you compound that. Um, and whereas your venture investments are obviously, um, you know, a riskier beta with higher returns if you, uh, have the right manager or you, or you pick the right, uh, entities. Yes, I think that, uh, for pure equity plays, there's a huge move right now in capitalizing on stablecoins. It's, it was up, you know, 800% in growth the year before the Genius Act. That's moving in similar numbers now. You've got giant payment companies like, uh, uh, you know, like Stripe and PayPal having their own, uh, stablecoin plays. There's going to be a real, um, we are just at the tip of the iceberg being used for, um, just global payments, remittances, corporate payments, and then you add in AI, decentralized AI, AI involving crypto, that's the biggest opportunity of the next, uh, four years. Um, they've already, I have a few investments in that space. Morpheus. Um, and there's a few other ones that are just brand new that they have not really, um, you know, gone out as public coins or, or as, um, sort of, um, equity that's sold to anybody. But there will be a consolidation in that space. And you just figure that when there's Obel Claw was a huge, um, um, you know, we're going vertical right now in the AI space, and it just doesn't make sense to me if there's gonna be tens of thousands of agents per company running around doing everything from payroll to purchasing to negotiating, that they're going to go in and do that with PayPal. Um, they're going to have their own currency, and that currency will be stablecoins, and there'll be governance tokens that control how that's spent.
So, I mean, if we got saw that little bit of the top of the market and we saw that sell-off event, you know, you, you mentioned you were buying some Bitcoin below 60,000 in this market. Are you shifting that barbell more towards Bitcoin, or are these falling valuations actually making the venture side much more attractive?
>> Well, they're both, they're both in the same, uh, lockstep. So, um, Bitcoin is heading towards its lows, and so is the venture market. So, it's time to buy from both of them. Uh, the time to sell and wait was, uh, was last year in the bull market.
>> When you look at the rising debt stress and, and, and now we're seeing these reports of redemption pressure in parts of private credit, do you see that as the kind of environment that ultimately pushes more capital towards Bitcoin?
>> Well, um, you still have centralized entities. I mean, when you had the, the crash of 2022, and again, your crashes are in the midterm year, every time. Um, it was in 2014, 2018, 2022, and here we are in 2026. And I believe that Satoshi programmed it that way. Um, you know, the halving is always in the presidential year, so far. We're not exactly a four-year cycle. We're more like a 46 and a half month cycle so far. The less, the most recent ones have been 47 months because if it was a pure four-year cycle, then the halving would always be on, uh, of the Genesis block, January 3rd. Instead, it's 210,000 blocks. And that has to do with the, uh, the speed of, um, mining. The, I have a whole chapter in my book about how the whole mining algorithms work to make it roughly every four years that you then, uh, go and cut the amount of Bitcoin distributed during that four-year period in half.
>> You know, you, you said that these mid-year crashes keep repeating, you know, in these, in these midterm kind of years that Satoshi may have designed the system that way. Uh, are you saying that this, this cycle behavior is kind of embedded in, in Bitcoin's design, or that the market has simply learned to trade around it?
>> I would say that's, that's so far been the data.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah. Yeah. That's fascinating.
>> And I, I also have a thesis that, uh, it's not the bankruptcy that caused the crash. It's the popping the bubble and all the, um, overleveraging that takes about a year to sort of, uh, work its way through the system. And, you know, we haven't even, we have not a good old, uh, giant bankruptcy yet. I mean, the two crashes that have happened since the bubble pop, the 1010 and then, um, the, uh, the February crash, you know, were, you know, sort of guesswork in terms of how that happened. That brought us down to 80K was supposed to be a deleveraged market maker from Binance that collateral and had five days of straight selling 9 to 5, um, New York time. And, um, in February, it was rumored to be a, a Hong Kong hedge fund that was not that was overleveraged in, uh, in IBIT. And, uh, so we have not had anything close to an FTX. Doesn't mean we have to, but, uh, if it happens, it's usually going to happen like right around that one-year mark after the bubble. Interesting. Uh, I don't know if you saw these reports this morning. Google's quantum AI team has raised fresh concerns about how quickly quantum computing could challenge current cryptography. Our audience owns a lot of physical gold and silver, right? I mean, they will say bullion can't be hacked. What do you say when these types of reports come? Is there any validity to it?
Well, >> it's a long ways away. Um, and I believe that the, for Bitcoin killer and for other protocols as well, go and, uh, have solutions either on the wallet level or on the protocol level. I mean, Bitcoin has already had several upgrades when the fees got too high and people thought it was going to kill Bitcoin back in 2017 when you had the famous Bitcoin fork. Um, they eventually, uh, got to, uh, having the programmers and the miners agree, which, you know, in the code, they have to have 95% agreement with the miners, and then the, and then the developers have to build it. So it takes a while, which is a good thing, not to have rapid consensus. But, uh, the same will happen with quantum when it gets to be a problem. The other thing is, who's actually going to hack, uh, Bitcoin? If, if it's mainly Google and IBM that have the technology. I mean, you just can't go and steal a giant data center with restricted chips and have North Koreans run it. And if, in some way, they were able to sort of reverse engineer the chips and the hardware and the data centers and the software, you think they'd go after Bitcoin before they went after JP Morgan? Because SHA 256 runs the entire banking system, too.
>> Yeah. Yeah. You know, we have many guests on. We've had Leon on many times. We talk about that US debt burden and the pressure it puts on monetary policy. Um, how does that translate into into the next kind of spring, summer phase of your framework?
Sure. So, um, you know, it's interesting that, um, a lot of the debt cycles have sort of coincided with these cycles, probably because it's the presidential promises and the maturities. Um, and, uh, so it's, it's, it's been historical that typically when there's a debasement trade, that gold gets, you know, sort of the pump first, which they obviously did last year, um, and then Bitcoin follows later, and, uh, it's happened a couple of times, and I think it's going to probably happen again. You know, I, I like to say about the monetary, it's like what Hemingway said about bankruptcy. It happened slowly, then suddenly.
>> Yeah, it's wild. Did it surprise you that that price action on the, the gold prices last year with all of the, the central banks kind of picking it up? Obviously, they haven't really touched Bitcoin yet. There's some conversation. There's some rumor around some of these sovereigns having, you know, maybe not central bank touching it, but something else touching it. Anything surprise you there?
Um, I expected gold to go up. I actually had it in my book talking about what a super cycle is, and, um, you know, the had said that there were two super cycles in the last 100 years in the commodities markets. One was of course the '70s when, uh, you know, you had the cause being a five-year or longer, um, you know, um, trend that the, that impacts the value thesis, and that was when, uh, you know, gold became legal for Americans to own, and we went off the, uh, gold standard. That ended up, you know, being a forex gold in the '70s. One, uh, was a broader-based commodity super cycle in the '90s because of China buying, uh, CME in I think '23, and I quoted the looked and said, "Too early to tell, but we think there may be a new sup super cycle building based on monetary debate." Yep.
That debasement trade was there. Um, and, you know, if governments push, they've been really pushing hard towards CBDCs and, and tighter kind of digital asset oversight. Does that end up helping Bitcoin by validating the need for decentralization, or does it threaten the whole premise?
I'd say neither. And certainly the United States pushing that. Um, Europe has been, you know, there's a, there's a, there's sort of a, a pushback about why do you need a central bank digital currency? The government has enough control, and they should. People are afraid of, uh, you know, sort of the ways social credit scores are used in China, that, you know, you're going to basically have just the government stopping you buying things because they're like, "Yeah, you know what? We don't want you to buy something that's, you know, uh, you know, like fast food or, or this type of car." And, uh, I think that CBDCs are unnecessary because you have, you have stablecoins, and stablecoins are now, you know, I like to say that Satoshi failed in his original vision. I mean, the white paper's title is, "Electronic Peer-to-Peer Cash." But he, he succeeded wildly in having it be the digital narrative. But without Bitcoin having succeeded, um, as digital gold, you would not have, and Tether, you know, the, I actually worked with the original Tether team in Santa Monica in 2014. So it was just wild watching it grow from this experimental, you know, uh, use case to now being, you know, a $300 billion industry and growing very fast. I mean, Scott Bess said he thought it would be so by the end of the decade.
>> Yeah. And I mean, you know, they, they also have that huge gold reserve, too. I mean, how important are stablecoins and Tether to your kind of broader Bitcoin thesis now? Are they becoming a real bridge into the system, or are they still mostly kind of that liquidity tool for, for crypto traders?
>> No, it's definitely moved from liquidity tool for crypto traders to savings account for the third world. Um, because, you know, years ago, one of the big, um, expansions of Bitcoin was, um, you know, people in Nigeria or in the Philippines or whatever, um, you know, wherever there was a, a high, um, you know, uh, higher inflation than the dollar, people wanted dollars, and the way they could get it was, uh, uh, the closest thing would be Bitcoin. The Bitcoin, even though it was volatile, did better over, you know, multi-year periods than, uh, the Argentinian peso and things like that. Now that you have basically, uh, a dollar-redeemable, um, you know, um, you know, product called the stablecoin, that's what most people who are just using it for their daily purchases, um, I, I've, I've said that basically in the future, all the global stuff will have basically two, um, they'll have a savings account in Bitcoin, and they'll have a checking account, uh, in, uh, in, uh, Tether or other stablecoins. Wild.
>> Yeah. So, it won't be, it's not creating a parallel system that kind of grows without needing Bitcoin at the center of it?
>> It helps and it hurts, right? So, in other words, it hurts that people are buying stablecoins instead of Bitcoin in the third world for day-to-day usage. Have wallets. They eventually discover that, um, you know, if they all of a sudden have more than just that week's grocery money, they should put it in something that doesn't, uh, you know, sort of deflate 3 or 4% a year, uh, but something that grows over time much higher level.
>> You know, that, that kind of brings us to, to, you know, liquidity and the money printing scenario. I mean, you've said AI-driven disruption could eventually force the biggest money printing in history. What would have to happen economically and politically for that scenario to kind of play out?
Well, um, I'm, I'm a little bit more of a techno-optimist. I think that, uh, as certain jobs go away, on this will happen in the next five years. The next book I'm working on is called Pandora's Blocks, and it's talking about how crypto plus AI plus robotics is going to fundamentally change the economy in the next five years and change society in the next 15. And, um, you're going to have, you, you are going to have human creativity. Everybody doesn't want to just sit around and get UBI. They will find ways of working with the technology to go and improve and innovate even faster. Not just say, "Well, I can't be a lawyer anymore because, uh, you know, Gemini or Grok does it better than me." They'll say, "Oh, now that they have these tools, I can create these new products that will make it, uh, you know, we're going to create, uh, AI-driven, uh, court systems or trade AI small claims." Somebody's got to build that, and it's not the agents, uh, building it, although they're going to do the final build-out. Yeah.
So, if, if AI turns out to be kind of more deflationary than inflationary, does that delay the timetable for the next leg of the super cycle?
>> No, I think, well, the super cycle is what happens when you hit supply shock because so far, there's been diminishing returns. Um, you had a 100x growth in the price of Bitcoin, halving the high in 2012-13, and then an 85% crash. And four years later, you had 30x, which was still phenomenal and then you had, and, you know, life-changing. Then you had an 83% crash. Um, if you again, he sold the top and bought back at the bottom, he did unbelievably well. Um, the third time I was projecting, uh, 10x, but it ended up being 8x because of a bad macro, Biden's war on crypto, and, uh, rapid raise of interest rates. But if interest rates were more important than the halving, we'd still be around $8,000 Bitcoin. And, uh, this last time, I was projecting 3x, was again 133, and we only got 2x. And, uh, you know, uh, that was probably the biggest macro effect. A lot of people expected positive macro and tailwinds instead of headwinds because Trump being, uh, pro-crypto. But, you know, we didn't pass the Clarity Act, and we did have all the tariffs, and, uh, that was really, at least if not the cause, at least the excuse for, uh, for the 1010 crash, which happened exactly on the cycle where it should have. Up. Um, it may have been something where people are ready to, uh, sell. Whales and the institutions that are following the, in terms of thesis, um, you know, just said, "Here, here's an opportunity to sell and cash out."
>> Yeah. And, you know, to your point, I mean, we're, we're now seeing, I saw today, just a report, we're now seeing major players like Coinbase, Stripe, Cloudflare. Um, they're pushing further into that X42, which is a protocol designed to let AI agents and software make payments directly over the internet, over the internet, without human intervention. Just for the viewers, uh, does that kind of machine-to-machine payment infrastructure accelerate your super cycle timeline?
>> I don't think that accelerates it. It simply provides, um, you know, more, um, uh, rationale for people who were previously afraid of, uh, of digital assets to say, "Oh, it's like a, but if you have a wallet, then it's not foreign for you to understand Bitcoin."
>> Listen, that was fascinating. I, I really appreciate you joining us today, walking us through your thesis during such a high-stakes week for the markets. Uh, been interesting watching. Um, you said that this is going to still hurt a little bit for people, and we get written back at home. You know, people that don't have a ton of liquidity and maybe they're leveraged, maybe they've learned about leverage. Uh, what do you say to people that are kind of fearful right now in this market?
>> Well, I mean, if you bought at the top, the good news about Bitcoin is just hold it on for four years, and you're gonna find a time that you're, uh, you're, you know, above, uh, water again. Uh, the best thesis is you bought at 110 and you can afford to buy some at 65, 55, you know, dollar-cost average. The only time that the dollar-cost averaging doesn't work is during, uh, Bitcoin fall. You don't want to be dollar-cost averaging into lower lows, but the rest of the time, it's fine.
>> Yeah. Yeah. It feels like it's found a little bit of footing here. All right, Michael. Appreciate your time today. Thanks so much.
>> My pleasure.
>> All right. And a big thank you to our sponsor, Swan Bitcoin, your partner for generational wealth. If you're looking to build a long-term position, you can learn more at swan.com/kitco. Now, on a personal note, I'm heading out for a little family vacation after this show with my wife and our son. I'll be back on the air and behind the desk as soon as we can. But while I'm away, the channel is in good hands. We have several of our regular technical analyst experts, including our favorite Gary Wagner, scheduled to steer us through these volatile markets and to keep you updated on the latest price action. And to our viewers, we want to hear from you. Is the current market setup a structural fracture or just a temporary shakeout? Let us know your thoughts in the comments below. Make sure to hit the button to subscribe to Kitco News and turn on notifications so you never miss an update. We're almost at a million subscribers, so you need to help us get there. Tell your friends. Appreciate you watching. I'm Jeremy Safford. We'll see you soon. Swan is the premier Bitcoin wealth platform serving leaders of families and businesses. Swan's mission-driven team simplifies Bitcoin investment, custody, and security, bringing you concierge service, world-class research, and exclusive events.