Transcription
Are we good?
Mhm.
All right. So, should we begin?
Mhm.
Wait, I'm I'm frozen. There's a lag. There's a lag. It's...
...because you coming from the other platform. And we look, um, there's a leg on the video. Start here.
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Yeah. I'm seeing there's a lag. My picture isn't isn't live. There's a lag. I don't know what is going on. No, but here is because we're coming from here. So you're going to see first here and then there is the light because then it goes here, you know. So this is the the correct one that we should be seeing. But...
...should we start here?
I ready to go.
All right, Dr. William Li here. Uh, thanks for your patience. We're working on some technical difficulties, uh, with, uh, uh, the streaming, but welcome to my YouTube live. I am really excited to have this conversation with my friend and colleague, uh, Dr. Colleen Cutcliffe.
But I want to give you a little bit of background about why we're actually having this conversation. Um, uh, I think that most people can relate to the fact that, um, a lot of people are feeling, um, that as they get older, we get more tired. We feel a little bit more bloated. We, um, kind of feel stuck in our own bodies and kind of accept that. Uh, and we sort of think about improvement based on willpower or "I've got to go to the gym," and then you feel discouraged by that and then say, "Well, that's kind of like my new normal. I guess I'll just stick with this and deal with it the best that I can."
But actually, there's a new way to think about, uh, healthy aging and these symptoms. You know, they're really symptoms. It's not just sort of normal aging. And the point isn't that we're not aging. In fact, we're all aging. I know most people think when you're 60, you're 65 and 70. But actually, when you're one years old, you're 100% older than you were on the day that you were born. So, we're aging as children, but we don't think about it the same way because usually we're full of energy. But by the time we meet, we reach kind of like our 40s or 50s and going onwards, we start becoming more conscious of feeling tired, feeling worn, feeling, and then getting this idea of stuck, and then that's our new normal.
But the biology tells us something different: that a lot of things that we accept as aging – dealing with stress, menopause, uh, exhaustion from, uh, work or travel or whatever busy life that you actually have – um, has another underlying reason for it. And the good news is that there's something we can do about it.
So that's why I am super excited to, uh, uh, uh, be having this conversation with my friend, Dr. Colleen Cutcliffe, who I'm going to let her introduce herself, her a little bit of her background, uh, because it's really relevant to this topic. Because she actually, uh, started, uh, a company called Pendulum that, uh, has been working on gut health and metabolic health and overall body health. And so with that, Colleen, um, would you, uh, kindly, uh, introduce yourself to the audience? Uh, who you are, where you came from, how did you get to what you're doing?
Sure. Um, well, thanks so much for having me here and for everyone who's joining. I think we're going to have a really exciting conversation about the latest, um, uh, kind of light that's been shed on our health and some of the kind of mysteries of what happens to us as we age and how we can really tackle those and, um, new science that is just being discovered.
So, um, my background is as a, uh, really a basic science researcher. Um, I have a PhD in biochemistry from Johns Hopkins. Uh, I did a postdoc at Northwestern, uh, looking at markers for pediatric Wilms tumors. Then I worked in a pharmaceutical company developing drugs for Parkinson's disease. So, all a very basic science research background, um, and really a pharmaceutical background.
Um, I, I then joined a startup company, uh, called Pacific Biosciences, uh, that was building a DNA sequencing instrument. That company, uh, went through rapid growth and went public while I was there. And one of the applications of DNA sequencing has been in the microbiome space. And so that instrument, uh, and building that instrument really led me to understand there was this new part of the body called the microbiome, where there are just, um, you know, hundreds of thousands of unknown, mysterious, uh, small organisms that are actually playing a big role in our health, and we don't know what they are, and DNA sequencing technology enabled us to look at them. So from that, I realized the microbiome is potentially underlying all of our body systems.
And then a very personal thing happened for me, which is that I had my first daughter. She was born almost two months prematurely. She was in intensive care for the first, uh, month of her life, and she received multiple doses of antibiotics during that time. We eventually got to leave, uh, the intensive care unit with a healthy baby, or what we thought was a healthy baby. But as she got older, I realized that she had food sensitivities that, uh, none of the rest of us in our family had. And these papers were starting to get published about the microbiome and the importance of the microbiome, especially in early developmental years.
And what was discovered is that if you're on a lot of antibiotics before you're two years old – the Mayo Clinic did this study – um, you are more prone later in life to things like obesity, diabetes, ADHD, allergies, asthma, depression, Crohn's dis. So, all of these things that are really tied to this early, uh, antibiotic treatment that decimated your microbiome.
Well, with that in hand and kind of the tools of a scientist, I set out to try to really uncover what is this microbiome and how can we use it to our advantage? What have we been doing to it, uh, as we age and as we live in modern society, and how can we unravel that to get to a healthier state? And that was really the premise for starting the company.
Well, I think that's a, um, a really helpful framework to understand that you had skin in the game, uh, to really use your, uh, uh, skills, uh, as a scientist to try to figure out something that your own daughter experienced, that you saw firsthand what the consequences are when the gut microbiome, the healthy, the trillions of healthy bacteria, are disturbed at an early stage in life.
And you know, when we, when I introduced this, I was talking about healthy aging, and this is a little bit of a theme, which is that we don't, we shouldn't be looking at our health only when we are getting older and maybe sicker, but in fact, it's a continuum. Like our, the beginning of our story starts at the beginning. The story of our health starts at the beginning of life, and we're actually, you know, working through the chapters page by page as we go through year by year. And what you're saying is that your development of this, this analytical tool, this device to do DNA sequencing, allowed you to, allows us to really peer at the detail.
So, it's kind of like the difference between, I don't know if you're, if you like astronomy, you go out into the night sky and you can take a pair of binoculars and look to see if you can, uh, look at the, the Crab or the Centaur or, you know, whatever those, uh, astronomy, uh, patterns are. Or you have a powerful tool like the Hubble telescope, and now you can actually see all the way to the distant galaxies and get to the bottom line of which are habitable planets, and all of a sudden a whole new world opens.
So, let's dive right into this conversation about this new world that we're able to discover by looking at the gut microbiome, because we hear so much about gut health. And I think a lot of people who are talking about it are excited by what the potential is and what we're learning about it. But most of the people, at least from my perspective, are not scientists that actually work with the actual laboratory analysis. And so, you know, for, for both of us, I'm a, I'm a vascular biologist. I've done microbiome research as well. We appreciate that a lot of the things that people talk about the microbiome, um, you know, uh, are based on years, sometimes decades of research that's very, very detailed, but it's really easy to come up with this sort of high flutin s, super simple, uh, conclusion. Uh, and, and as scientists, we realize that you have to earn the ability using data to be able to come to a conclusion, and that's really what you've done with Pendulum and all the other work that's done.
But I want to talk a little bit about what do we know about gut health that connects to whole body health? You mentioned this as your insight with your daughter. But, you know, when we think about the gut, and as a medical doctor, you know, the gut starts at the mouth, it ends at the tailpipe, the anus. And if it's not your stomach, and it's not your small intestines or large intestines, it's not the gut. But the gut is like its own, uh, closed system. We thought that's how it was taught in medical school. Now we know that's completely not the case, that the healthy bacteria that should be living in all of us like an ecosystem.
I, I sometimes describe it like the Great Barrier Reef. Anybody who has seen a video of the Great Barrier Reef or maybe had the opportunity to, to dive in the non-bleached section – I actually did it, actually one was able to go out there during one of my research trips. Got into the, uh, uh, water, uh, by the reef, and my gosh, you go from seeing the waves to seeing this teeming, living system with so colorful, with all these like so many, so much fish, so much life, you can't even count them all. And that's actually kind of what we have in our gut.
And that community, that ecosystem, that coral reef, the Great Barrier Reef inside our gut, that actually does a lot more than digestion. It affects the rest of our body as well. And it sends signals to our metabolism, uh, our appetite, our mood, of course, how our gut functions, but also, um, whether or not we feel inflamed. So, can you tell me from your perspective? I mean, since you've had a real life experience with your daughter based on your research, like how does gut health connect to whole body health?
Yeah, I think, um, you know, I, I like your, your Great Barrier Reef or your coral reef, um, analogy here. It's, it's a beautiful thing that is highly complex and there's a lot of interdependencies and how these things operate. They're creating, uh, you know, each individual organism is creating a bunch of things that then the other organisms are utilizing, and you have this ecosystem that's in this amazing balance. And, um, however, uh, one thing like bleach could completely undo the whole system.
And so, um, I think our microbes are very much like that. When you have the, the, the coral reef in all of its beauty and majesty working properly, all of your systems feel like that they're all working great. And what happens is when it's not, when it's depleted, you feel it.
So, we can get into the science, but, you know, as we age, many of us feel like, "Okay, now I can't eat all the foods I used to be able to eat. I am tired all the time. My metabolism, like I look down at my body and I think, 'I'm still doing all the same stuff. Why does my body look like this now?'" Uh, I get sick more easily. And when I do get sick, it takes me forever to recover. It's just all going to hell in a hand basket. All of those systems are actually tied to our microbiome.
And all those things that are happening in the microbiome, all those signals that are getting sent out are signals to our body. Um, our microbiome is signaling to our body, and our body is signaling to our microbiome. And it's tied to our digestion, our metabolism, our cardiovascular health, our immune system, our inflammatory system, and even our brain function. And so what we're uncovering now is what are all the things the microbiome is doing? And when you've lost certain microbes or you've lost certain organisms in your coral reef, what repercussions is that having? And for many of us, it has a lot of repercussions, but the solve is very simple: let's reestablish that coral reef.
So, it's kind of like if you go back into the reef idea. Um, you've got the anemone, you've got Nemo, the little clown fish in there. Let's pop Nemo out. And then what happens to the anemone? Oh, there's a moray eel. Let's remove the moray eel as well. But all of a sudden things are out of balance. Life is out of balance there, and then the reef is out of balance, and then it can't actually sustain itself.
And so what you're saying, and this is also what my research shows, is that when you have a gut microbiome that's out of balance, um, we feel it. And the way we feel it, uh, is by feeling kind of crummy or feeling stuck or feeling just more tired. Um, our metabolism is a little bit out of whack, uh, because we don't have the right players doing their thing.
Another analogy besides the coral reef is like, you know, World Cup's going on right now. So if you start removing players from the field or you start throwing people in the audience onto the field to play, you're not going to really get a good performance. The sport's not going to be played the right way, and it's going to be really kind of like a, a messed up game, and we don't want that inside our gut. It's hidden. Most people don't think about their gut, uh, uh, unless it doesn't feel well.
And by the way, something that I tell patients who ask me about gut health, and they're like, "How do I know if my gut is good or not?" And what I said is that, look, uh, we, we all know this. You know, you're, you're feeling pretty good, and, uh, you go to sleep one day and you wake up in the morning, and guess what? You're, you're out of bed and you're walking around, and your gut feels doesn't feel quite right. Maybe gassy, maybe bloated, you don't feel that great. And you know what? When your gut doesn't feel good, you get in a bad mood. You're cranky. You, you're short-tempered. You're impatient. You know, you're just basically not the person you want to be, and your gut doesn't feel well. And I said that is a, every person's, uh, analogy that we can all relate to of what it means for our gut bacteria not to be in balance.
The good news is that we can get it back into balance. But when it's not in balance, our metabolism changes. Our blood sugars, uh, our insulin, uh, levels, our, uh, natural appetite suppressions are kind of off whack. Um, uh, uh, inflammation is normally, uh, uh, lowered in our body by healthy gut bacteria. So when you knock the bacteria off balance, inflammation rises, and when inflammation rises, you feel crummy. You feel stuck, you know, and, and like in every day if you're feeling stuck, the last thing people have been asking or thinking about is their gut. And what we're, what we're finding is that, you know, maybe the first thing you should be asking about or coming to your mind is, "What's going on in my gut? Is my gut actually, is it healthy? Are my gut bacteria doing their job?"
So one of the things I want to talk about is what are the solutions for that? Right? Because, you know, we know that everybody knows you should be eating healthier. Everybody knows that, you know, if you eat more, uh, plant-based foods, it's going to be better for you. But to me, that's a hand-wavy thing. It's true, but it's not specific. And as scientists, I always think, you know, like we, we, we have a deeper knowledge, uh, than that. Um, what can we do to restore that balance, make that coral reef a little healthier? Put Nemo back. Put the moray eel back. Make the system go back in balance so we're not feeling verbally crummy, irritable, short-tempered, tired, fatigued, and inflamed. What, what, what have you found in your work?
Yeah. I mean, well, first of all, I love the way that you're framing this because one of the questions that I frequently get is, "What probiotic should I take?" And I think that's not exactly the right question. I think the question is, "What problem are you trying to solve?" Because once you understand, like, "Well, for me, I'm having these three issues that I'm trying to solve," and then to your point, many of us look to, "Okay, it's our nutrition, it's our exercise, maybe it's these pharmaceutical drugs," but there's another pillar, which is really your microbiome, and that is a solution to a problem you're having.
So, I think the important thing is to say, we're all different, we're all individuals. Um, you have a specific problem you're trying to solve. What is the solution for that problem? And one of the things that we've been digging a lot into, uh, for the last, we've, you know, been around for 13 years. For the last decade, we have been studying a lot about metabolism. So, if metabolism is your issue – "Gee, my..." – and it can be all the way to the extreme of, "I have type two diabetes and I'm trying to solve an A1C and blood glucose spike problem," all the way to, "I'm really healthy, but I'm always trying to optimize how my body metabolizes sugars," and everybody in between who's thinking about metabolism. That's what we've really been working on.
And it turns out there are very specific strains in your microbiome that can stimulate your body's natural GLP-1. And this is one of the most important things that your microbiome does to help you boost your metabolism. And the second really big thing that your microbiome does is it, the, the gut lining and the strength of the gut lining is a really important part of making sure that the signaling pathways that are involved in how your body processes sugar, how your body, um, reacts to you eating sugar, all of that is, uh, very much related to the gut lining and the strength of that and making sure all those signals are happening in the right places at the right time. And your microbiome is a really important part of that.
And the most important thing is that over time what we have found is that you can start to become depleted in certain microbes, certain Neos, certain Eels. And that's why now your body is not actually producing your natural GLP-1 at the right time. Your body doesn't have the right gut lining. And so things are getting misfired and miss-signaled all over the place. And when you can give back those things into your ecosystem, there's a couple of very key players for that. Then you can really start to feel it in both your, um, digestion as well as your metabolism. And these are kind of the important discoveries. These are all strains that nobody even really knew about or had access to even, you know, 10 years ago.
So, let's, um, let me just kind of, uh, recap a little bit what I heard you just say, which is that, uh, there are certain bacteria, uh, healthy bacteria in our gut that, um, prompts our own gut to be able to secrete hormones that are like GLP-1. Now, the GLP-1 that we're talking about right now is not what you inject into your body from, from a pharmaceutical drug, but it's actually, it's the basis that the drug was developed, is really that our body produces its own natural GLP-1. That GLP-1 does something really important, and it's affected by our gut, healthy gut bacteria.
We need good, healthy gut bacteria to make low levels, uh, after we eat, of GLP-1 that helps our insulin levels rise so that we can draw the blood glucose, so we have, we have energy into our cells, and it also, um, lowers, uh, glucagon so that we're not making more blood sugar. So, at net-net, is that we're actually, it's actually helping our metabolism, uh, even out. So, and, and that's the basis, by the way, of lowering blood sugar that the pharmaceutical industry developed a whole GLP-1, uh, system. But back to our own body's GLP-1. Uh, it's natural. It's prompted by foods that we eat, but you need the right bacteria in there to be able to maintain that.
And we all know how powerful GLP-1 can be. By the way, we know it lowers blood sugar, number one. Number two, we then discovered, uh, that it actually helps people lose weight, sometimes a lot of weight. The number three thing that is really dramatic is we found that, um, uh, people receiving GLP-1, uh, actually have lower risk of heart attack and stroke, which is profound. There's no other thing that can actually do that, and it's impacted by the gut bacteria. And a couple of weeks ago at the American Society of Clinical Oncology, it was announced that people who are taking GLP-1 actually have a lower risk of four different types of cancer as well.
And we're not, you know, I'm certainly not recommending people get on GLP-1, but what I'm saying is that this is a very, very powerful system coming out of our gut that is actually in part controlled by our healthy ecosystem bacteria. And I've heard you say many times, "Let's pay attention to the keystone strains." So, you want to explain what you mean by that?
Yes. And, and maybe I'll just add to that list, which, um, it's, it's just fabulous to see all the new things that we discover about these hormones that our body is naturally making and that our microbiome is involved in helping, uh, you know, with this, with the, uh, signaling. The other thing I'll add about GLP-1s is one of the reasons they're so effective for weight loss is that they really help you reduce your food cravings. So you hear this from people like, "Well, I used to, you know, eat the whole plate. Now I can eat half the plate and I feel full, and I don't feel the need to like raid the kitchen cabinet and eat all the snacks in there. You know, I get home from work." And I think many of us carry food guilt with us. We think like, "Oh, I succumb to that chocolate chip cookie or I succumb to that bag of potato chips because I'm weak." And the fact is, there's a lot of signaling happening in your body that is telling you it's time to eat or you're hungry, and there's signaling that tells you you're full and you don't need to eat any more calories. And that is not on you and your willpower. That is in your microbiome and your biological system. And GLP-1 is...
...it's on your gut bacteria. So...
...it's on your gut bacteria.
We're gonna find, we always got to find something to blame for, uh, a problem that we're experiencing. But this actually brings me to exactly this whole idea about the keystone, uh, bacteria because, um, I mean, look, there's 39 trillion estimated healthy bacteria or more, uh, and it's not just bacteria. There's viruses, there's archaea, and all kinds of fungus, all kinds of other things in our bacteria. We can't even count them. You need like AI and machine learning to be able to kind of get in there to even begin sorting, uh, this, this whole issue out. But so it's remarkable that when you say keystone, you're talking about one bacteria.
Now I know from, because we know each other, that the bacteria that you have really pioneered, uh, Pendulum's pioneered to become available, is Akkermansia mucinophila. And I'll tell you that I learned about Akkermansia, um, uh, before there was an Akkermansia that was available to be able to add to your body as a, as a, as a probiotic. Um, I was, uh, uh, organizing and co-chairing a conference in France, uh, looking at cancer, uh, treatments and how people were, uh, doing, uh, on the latest cancer treatments that involve the immune system. And it turned out that these immunotherapies for cancer, which are really remarkable, super powerful, um, don't work as well in a lot of people. And when the researchers were doing this – this is from Dr. Lawrence Zogal in Paris – it was discovered that one or two, a few bacteria, one specifically Akkermansia, was missing or much lower in people who were nonresponders, and that if the bacteria were grown or added back in the lab, that that would actually, um, help to promote the response.
So I thought it was so amazing, jaw-dropping. In fact, you know, if you were in that conference, you would have heard my jaw hit the ground because one bacteria could make the difference between life or death in a cancer setting, made me realize there's something critical about this. So, talk to us about keystone strains, Akkermansia, and how this solution, uh, to the problem of aging, uh, metabolism, inflammation, maybe even, you know, these serious chronic diseases, uh, how does it play a role? What, what is the keystone strain? What is Akkermansia?
Yeah. Um, so I think that there are Akkermansia is one of the keystone strains, and I think we're going to uncover more and more as we go down the line. But if we get back to the idea of a soccer team, this is the equivalent of your striker. So yes, every player on that team has an important role to play, but if you take out the player that's job it is to score goals, you'll never score a goal on, you know, in the game. And so that kind of is, is where some of these strains live, which is that they operate in an ecosystem. They, of course, need the rest of the team to operate. Um, but they are, they are the striker. And so when you lose that striker, you, you can't score any goals.
And so, um, what we have discovered – and when I say "we," I mean the broad scientific community – is that Akkermansia mucinophila is one such keystone strain. And the way it got discovered was just literally thousands of publications around the world from scientists saying, "Well, gee, when I look at a healthy gut versus a sick gut," and you can name that sick gut however you want to describe it – cancer, obesity, immune deficiency, GI issues – "all of those were lower in Akkermansia." And so that was the first signal that like, "Hey man, what's going on? How, how is it that this one strain is depleted in all of these disease states?" And the...
...is that, so the idea is that, is that's the striker, so we're not scoring the goals because we're missing something.
That's right. We're not scoring goals across the board, and every single game we're playing, we're not scoring. Right. And so I think, um, you know, some of the very key things that we've learned about Akkermansia over time are that it is one of the only strains known to be able to stimulate your body's natural GLP-1. It is one of the only strains known to be able to really regulate the mucin layer of your gut lining. So what I mean is that your gut lining and, and your, the literally the physical structure of your gut is incredibly important. So if you don't have a physically strong gut lining, you start to get, uh, these little gaps or what some people call leaky gut. And what that, the reason that's a problem is because all the small molecules that are inside your gut are making their way out into your bloodstream, and all the things in your bloodstream can make their way into your gut, and that is a big no-no. You do not want crossing of signaling molecules, uh, across that barrier.
And Akkermansia, there, there's a literally a glue called mucin that holds that structure in place. And Akkermansia is the only strain we know of to date that can both strip away that glue and also put new glue up in order to keep that gut lining strong. So it stimulates your body's natural GLP-1, and it keeps the structure of your gut lining in place. And that's why it's been labeled a keystone strain.
Um, another strain I'll tell you that I think will start to emerge more and more as a keystone strain is claustrdium butum. It's the only other strain known to be able to stimulate GLP-1. The only two strains that have ever been published that can stimulate your body's natural GLP-1 are Akkermansia mucinophila and claustrdium butum. And claustrdium butum does two things. One is it can stimulate your body's natural GLP-1. And the second is, as its name suggests, it produces butyrate. It is a massive producer of butyrate, which is an incredibly important small molecule when it comes to colonic health, and your colon cell health is dependent on your body to be able to produce lots of butyrate. And so that's a second keystone strain.
And the third, I think we're going to start to uncover, which, uh, is called, um, feal bacterium przi. And this is a strain which is known to play an important role in your immune response, and we have some very early data showing that it can play a, a, a really important role also in, uh, your gut blood structure as well as other hormones. And so, um, we're going to start to see the emergence of some of these keystone strains where if you're missing or low in them, you're feeling it in a variety of ways. And it's really, the lucky thing is, if you can find formulations that have these strains in them, you can start to give your body back, uh, these functions that are core to all of those disease states, and you can start scoring goals across the board.
So, we're beginning to give names and identify the members of the team that are required to be able to help score that goal and make it, you know, and have a winning team in terms of what's in our gut. So, I just want to make sure anybody listening, uh, I'm, I'm following along because I'm good at that alphabet soup.
So, we talked about acromancia, which is a ker msia, acromancia, and that's the first name. The last name is exactly what you were talking about, mucin. It's kind of a sticky glue. Um, it kind of coats on the inside. So, you're... nobody wants a leaky gut, let me tell you. You don't want the stuff inside your gut leaking out into your, the cavity or belly. That's going to cause inflammation. So, acromancia with its mucin, it loves to eat it, loves to live in it, loves to make it. Actually keeps our gut nice and healthy. That's one keystone tree.
Number two, you said, uh, claustrdia butyricum. Now, claustrdia, some people might be, if you're, if you're a geek and you're into these bacteria, you might know that there is another claustria, we call it claustria difficil, C. diff. That's a not such a good claustrdia. But this is like the family. claustrdia isn't the bad guy. It's a, there's, and claustrum that's B-U-Y-R-I-C-U-M, butyricum, actually is a good guy because it's making butyrate, which is a, which is one of these healthy, um, short-chain fatty acids that helps to lower inflammation and, and improve your, your immunity and vascular health, all kinds of good things. Um, and so C. butyricum claustrum is the good member of the family. C. cluster difficil, C. diff, is like that drunk uncle in Thanksgiving that's always like making the, the, the party a mess, right? So we don't want too much of that C. diff. We want, but see, claustrdia butyricum is a good guy.
And then the third one you talked about is, because I want to, I'm, I'm keeping track in my head all these keystones, is falabacterium przi. And I'm not even going to bother spelling that, but just to know that this, this is actually a really interesting bacteria because it's been shown to be related to, um, brain health as well. And so this is, you know, everybody's heard about gut-brain connection, and, uh, and, and now we're talking about some serious brain stuff, not just being a good mood, but actually, you know, uh, cognitive function as we get older. Like that's one thing you don't want to let slip.
So, back to the idea of the soccer team, the players, not just the striker, but all the supporting players as well, making sure that we can actually score goals, uh, win the game. These are very important. Like from your daughter's perspective, did you check, did you check acromancia in your daughter after she'd got antibiotics? Was that something you looked for?
First of all, that wasn't even a thing that existed when this kid was born. So, she's, you know, she's 19 years old. So when she was born, uh, there, there were no like really gut tests like there are today. Um, and I, I didn't check because, um, we, I, I, first of all, you know, when you're developing something new, you have a lot of hypotheses and theories and, uh, you know, um, I think...
...19 years ago. So basically you're saying that that essentially, uh, sparked by this personal experience, you contributed, you dedicated your existence to help try to figure out how to, how to analyze and how to identify the key players.
I did. And I think for any parent out there, you know, if your kid is suffering from a problem and you have any ability to be able to help, you're going to do that. And for me as a scientist, this was my way to be able to solve this problem. And I real, you know, it's, it's for millions of people, but I'm definitely was driven to it by my own daughter.
And when we think about our microbiome and how we can continue to shape it and give it these keystone players and make sure that we've got a thriving team, a thriving coral reef, uh, however we want to think about it, um, as parents, we have the opportunity to give these things to our children. Once you become a teenager and you start making your own choices and into your 20s, you have the choice to set yourself up for success. And as we age, we have the ability to give these strains back to ourselves that we may have lost over time. It does not matter how old you are. You always have the opportunity to replenish your microbiome. Today can be the day where you can decide, "I'm not going to deal with any of these ailments anymore. I'm going to focus on how my microbiome is a tool for me." And that's the beauty of the microbiome. You can change it any time in life.
So, I got to ask you something, and this is something that I, I wondered for years. My grandparents were taking probiotics, like then they used to get them from Japan, and, uh, they came in a little tin. I never really knew what it was, but I saw some bacteria names on it, and so I scratched my head and I thought, "I'm not going to dig that." But the question as I got older and started to realize that this was really important stuff, like the old ways happened to be the really good ways. What's different is that we now have the science.
But one question I always had, and I'm sure people who are watching this, uh, probably have it as well, is, um, are these bacteria alive? And what's the difference between a live bacteria and a dead or pasteurized bacteria? And how do we know it makes a difference? And, you know, like let's use acromancia as an example because I take acromancia every single day. Like once, as I said, you know, once I started to look at the research, I'm like, "This is a no-brainer in terms of making sure my body has enough of it." But live versus pasteurized, can you kind of shed some light on that?
Yes. So, um, just to be clear, uh, on the definitions: a live bacteria is a probiotic. A pasteurized bacteria is dead. So it actually is not a probiotic. And the definition of probiotic is it's, it's alive.
You call it when it's dead.
Just call it dead bacteria. You call it pasteurized bacteria. But it's, it's not useless. It's not useless because it's sort of like a car. If you have a car that works, it can get you, it can drive you from point A to point B and point B to point C, and it can be your way that you get to everywhere you want to go to. If you have a car that is nonoperational, you can still use the tires, you can sell the parts. You still, it has, it's not that it has no value, it's just that it doesn't have ongoing value.
And so it's the same thing with these bacteria. A live bacteria is going to be able to colonize in your gut. It's going to work with the food that you eat and with all the other microbes that are in there to be on this team that's going to help you win, win, win. A pasteurized or a dead bacteria has the parts. And so in that moment, actually, your other bacteria in that ecosystem are good at like, you know, extracting those parts, all the different parts.
It's kind of like we're going to, we're going to get, we're going to harvest the wheels from this car. Oh, carburetor actually works pretty well. Uh, you know, let's, let's get the steering wheel. Let's grab that.
Exactly. Exactly. So, it can do all that, but then once it's done that, that car is now gone. And so, you don't have the ongoing utility of actually a working car. And so you will, if you take a pasteurized bacteria, it can have some of those near-term benefits. But...
...how do you know, how do you know? How would, how would anybody know who's watching what is a pasteurized versus live? What do we, are we, is it on the label or how do we know that?
Yeah, it's a good question because, as you know, the supplements industry is, is not so highly regulated. Um, so it does require you to do some really deep digging into, um, it usually doesn't show up on the label because a lot of companies give it this other name or they give a branded name, and so you don't really know what's in it or a proprietary formulation. So I encourage everyone, you know, go to the company's website, really read about the product, and if they're hiding whether it's live or pasteurized, it's probably pasteurized. And if they're hiding that, then you maybe want to think about the credibility of the company that you're buying it from. But you should be able to find it on the product description page, uh, on the website of, of the product. So you, you want to really look for...
...it's live, like for example, on Pendulum. Do you actually have live? Is it on...
...write "live"? Yes, we write "live."
I say it, it's on, it's on the, it's on the label.
It's on the product description page that it's live acromancia. Well, to be honest with you, we never thought we had to explicitly say it was live because it had never occurred to us that someone would try to sell a pasteurized version. And I'll tell you, you know, just to like take a little sidebar here, one of the more disappointing things about this industry is, um, how much people try to capitalize off other people's, uh, um, desire to improve their own health. The pasteurized version you will have to take forever. It can never colonize. It will never be a functioning car. Never. And so that, that product is great because you'll have to take it always, forever. It's great for that company.
And I tell people about our live, uh, product, which is that if you can modify your diet so that you're feeding those bacteria and you get them to colonize, you really don't have to be on the probiotic for the rest of your life. Now, there may be moments where you go on an antibiotic or you just traveled and you want to replenish that strain, but if you can feed it through your nutrition and your diet, you know, think about the produce section. If you're eating lots of veggies and fruits, you don't have to take this product forever. But the pastor, you do.
How long would you be able to, how long would you need to take it to be able to get to colonization?
Well, of course, that depends. Uh, it varies from person to person. If you have a microbial ecosystem that's very open to acrimancy coming in, for some people, they can establish it within 30 days. Some people it takes six months to establish. But here's the little life hack: if you can increase your fiber and polyphenol intake, those are two things that are known to stimulate acry; that's their food. And so if you can increase fibers and polyphenols in your diet – and that's really that produce section and all the berries and go to the lentil section – um, you know, those are the kind of things that can help you, uh, accelerate and boost acromancia, uh, live acromancia in your body.
So we know, for example, that the lagotannins and pomegranates can actually help to encourage the growth of acromancia. Cranberries, conquered grapes, uh, uh, hot chili peppers can do it. Uh, peach juice has been shown, the, the liquid from peach juices, and even Chinese black vinegar, what you'd have in the soup dumpling restaurants, also been correlated with actually having supporting the growth of your bacteria. So it's not just popping the, the live bacteria in your mouth. It's also what you're eating to kind of keep it, keep it happy, keep it going with prebiot with the polyphenols and the dietary fiber.
Uh, okay. You said something interesting, which is that the, that the pasteurized bacteria, the dead bacteria, you know, the car parts still could be harvested, but the thing is that it's not going to engraft. It's not going to stick in your gut and keep forming little baby acromancia. So, you know, it's essentially you got to keep taking it to be able to harvest the, the parts, right?
Yes.
So, um, but I want to talk about something else that's actually super helpful to know, like, buyer beware. Really do your homework. The live bacteria sort of is always going to be more beneficial. Even though the pasteurized can have some benefits, but, you know, you don't want to have to depend on a product forever. That's like a crutch. You know, you want to, you want to stand on your own and let your body do it, you know, do its thing.
But I want to also bring up something else that I've always thought before you go on to the next topic, just to add one more final buyer beware thing, which is that, um, if you're looking up acromancia on Amazon and things like that, um, you know, you'll find that oftentimes the pasturized acromancia is less expensive than the live. Um, but when you think about like, "Okay, I have to be on this thing forever," actually, and, and, and add that up, that, that's, that's problematic. But also, there are many bottles that are sold on Amazon that say acromancy on them, but they don't actually have acromancy in the bottle. So, another kind of buyer beware, and we all have to do our own homework, is that even if you buy it from Amazon, I would encourage everyone, go check out the website of the company and try to get a sense of, "Are they actually a legit company?" There are a lot of fly by nighters on Amazon selling us... It's kind of like just doing your research on anything that's advertised on social media. You know, it looks good, but you, when you check it out, look at the reviews, try to check out the company. Is it a legit company or not?
Okay. Look, one more thing I want to ask you about, which is the idea that, um, uh, single bacteria, you know, people, uh, champion this idea like, "This is my bacteria, this is my cure all," but really the principles of medicine, and I, you know, I say this as a doctor and somebody who's been involved with developing medical therapies, is combinatorial. When you put different elements together, the sum of the parts and the whole is greater than the actual sum of the parts. You really get a lot more bang for your buck when you're actually combining things. So, um, talk to us a little bit about how you've come to that conclusion and what you've put together to be able to support metabolism and, and help, you know, like help energy and, you know, like your gut fuel. Uh, what, what, how did you come to that and what are the components of the ways that you created combinations?
Yes. So, um, thank you. I think it's really important that, um, everyone know the microbiome is an ecosystem, and so there are these keystone strains, but it's far more effective if you can give the, the formulation. So again, getting back to the soccer analogy, you want to give the whole team to your microbiome, not just that one player. And so when we've devised...
These formulations, it really is about that team. And, um, you know, for example, the stimulation of GLP-1 is a multi-step biochemical pathway. So, just translating that to the soccer team, you want to have the defenders, you know, the midfielders, and the strikers so they can pass that ball all the way to score a goal. And so, what we've done is to actually find the strength that all work together in order to get you to score those goals. And that's what's in those formulations. We do, just in case anyone's like, we do sell *Akkermansia* as its own standalone strain. And that's more because people have asked for it, and they really want to be able to have that strain on its own. But I take a formulation, and I always advise people to select a formulation over the single strain because you they really work together. You want to give them together.
>> So, what, what's the, what's the, what's the formulation, the product called?
So, we have a couple. Um, if you have type two diabetes, this formulation, Pendulum Glucose Control, is clinically shown to lower A1C and blood glucose spikes. If you are just trying to improve your metabolic health and you're not trying to tackle diabetes issues, um, Metabolic Daily is actually literally the exact same strains but in a lower dose for people who are trying to improve their metabolism.
>> What are the strains? *Akkermansia*, is it? Do you got the *Clostridia* and the *Faecalibacterium prausnitzii*?
We do not have that third player. Uh, I will tell you, we're working on it. We're working on it. But we have, um, it is *Akkermansia muciniphila*, *Clostridium*, and there's another *Clostridial* strain, *Clostridium beijerinckii*, in there. Um, *Anaerobutyricum hallii* and *Bifidobacterium infantis*. And, um, you know, they kind of all start with these different names: *Bifidobacterium*, *Anaerobutyricum*, *Clostridia*, and, uh, um, *Akkermansia*.
>> Is that the, is this like your New York Times crossword puzzle?
It's like the... Well, yes. Everyone tells me it sounds like the noise I make when I'm, you know, sick. Um, but I think th those... but that's sort of the thing, you know, the sophistication of these new strains and what they actually do and what problem they're actually solving. That's the new world we're living in because of all the scientific discovery that's happening around the world. And we don't have to settle for, you know, I'll take you back. You said your grandparents took a probiotic. You don't really know what was in it. But if we go back even further, you know, in 4th century China, if you were an emperor and you had digestive issues, they would feed you what was called the "golden soup." And the golden soup was effectively, um, stool from a, um, a newborn that was untainted, you know, however you want to describe "untainted." And they would, uh, mix it with hot water, and they would feed it to the emperor, and it was a fecal microgram transplant. Effectively, the golden soup was from a baby that you drank. And so, you know, from that fecal transplant to some kind of probiotic to now a sophisticated understanding of which strains are doing what, that's the world we live in now where we can say, "This is my problem, and these are the strains that are going to solve it."
>> For anybody watching, do not make your own golden soup.
>> Don't do that.
>> I would highly not... I would highly recommend you don't actually do that.
Well, look, I mean, listen, this is... we've covered a lot of ground actually, and I think this is, uh, you know, uh, for those of us who are working in research, you can see that, uh, we we're excited to talk about this because we're learning more and more and how to actually make your body, uh, optimize your body so it can do its job. Uh, but for everybody listening, like, you know, I started off by saying, you know, sometimes as we get older, we feel worn out, stuck, feel broken, we're just sick and tired of being sick and tired. Um, but and then you kind of just give up. And I think one of the things I'm hoping people will take away from, uh, this YouTube live is that, in fact, some of those symptoms are have their root cause in our gut. And by fixing that ecosystem, by getting the striker back into the soccer team and maybe bringing the other players on as well, we can actually get the ecosystem, the soccer team, to score goals, to be able to be that beautiful teeming reef that is a is part of the healthy environment. And that's, you know, like we talk about environment, we think about outside, you know, the sky, the woods, you know, the oceans. Actually, there's a much, much more complicated environment inside our body that, Colleen, you know, you and your pioneering efforts at Pendulum to, um, bring forth and try to figure out what are the different, uh, single bacteria, combinations of bacteria, the formulations. I think this is really where we actually have something really practical that we can do. You don't have to be a scientist, you don't have to be a microbiologist. You just need to actually think, "When I'm not feeling so great, maybe it's not, uh, it's not my fault, and maybe it's my my in my gut. Let me see if there's something I can do to avoid that." And if you're feeling that a lot, maybe you need to actually, uh, try a high-quality, reputable probiotic or a combination of probiotics and prebiotics in order to be able to get your metabolism back into shape so you have that energy so you can score those goals. I mean, literally on a macro level, when your gut is playing the playing the game the right way, you're going to be able to, as a whole person, be able to play that game as well.
So, let's see. Do we have some time for questions? Um, uh, should we try to take a look at a few questions? Um, I'm just trying to think if we can... Do I need to switch back to switch out here? Oh man, there is a ton of questions out here. Let's see. I can pick a few out. Um, uh, here's a good question. Somebody was asking, "Are there any foods that contain these keystone strains naturally? Is there, you know, we we talk about probiotic foods. Is there any foods that you know of, Colleen, that can do it, or are those all the... our food the kind of the fuel that can... the fish food for the the coral reef?"
>> Yes. I love this question. It's really important. I think there's two things, you know. First of all, the foods, um, that do contain probiotics, some of them are actually being added back in. So, for example, yogurts that contain *Lactobacillus*. A lot of people don't know the process of making yogurt is first you, uh, actually pasteurize the yogurt and get rid of all the strains, and then the *Lactobacillus* is added back. So, things like yogurt, but also fermented foods, kimchi, um, and, and, you know, even kombucha and all those things, they do contain, uh, probiotics. However, some of the strains we've talked about here today, those next-generation keystone strains, have never been found on any foods. And so, um, there are you will be able to get some foods to replenish some of the strains, but not all of them. And for these keystone strains, food plays a really important role. So, that's the second thing. The first is these foods, uh, can give you *Lactobacillus* and *Bifidobacterium* strains, um, but not your keystone strains. But this the second thing is that foods are the food for you and for your microbes. And so, here you can boost your *Akkermansia*. There's a lot of studies showing the kind of foods that can boost your *Akkermansia* levels and your *Clostridia* levels. Um, and these are foods that are high in fibers and polyphenols. And so, we talked about polyphenols. So, you know, pomegranates, uh, cranberries, think your berry section, those have a lot of p a lot of polyphenols in them. Green tea, all of your spices, all of these are great sources of polyphenols. And then fibers can be found in pretty much anything in that produce section. So, all your leafy greens, um, uh, sunchokes, um, asparagus, all of those foods contain lots of fibers in them. And so, diversity of fibers and polyphenols is what's going to help, uh, your *Akkermansia* be able to grow.
>> You know, as somebody who studies foods medicine, I always tell people, uh, fiber doesn't just mean gets caught between your teeth like fiber. Uh, some of the softest foods can actually have a lot of fiber. Avocado, you know, you can spread it like butter on the toast. Avocado toast got a good source of dietary fiber. Uh, a ripe peach or a pear or can actually have dietary fiber, uh, as well. About five grams of dietary fiber, six, five to six grams of dietary fiber. And then mushrooms, you know, I happen to like mushrooms. I know not everybody likes mushrooms, but I love mushrooms. You know, those soft mushrooms, you sauté them with a little bit of extra virgin olive oil, some shallots, you know, maybe some herbs, and the and the and the mushroom will turn nice and soft. Um, packed with dietary fiber. Uh, so I think that the message that we're sending to anybody watching is that, sure, you can get a probiotic or get a formulation. It's going to be helpful to you if you get the right strains. Um, but you you don't want to do that by itself. This isn't about, you know, getting, uh, focusing by reducing your world to that. You want to actually enjoy a whole, uh, the whole shebang with plant-based foods that you find in a produce section or in the middle aisles, the in the dried section. The beans, for example, uh, are also a great source of dietary fiber, uh, as well.
You know, um, a couple of questions that came up. I this is like a, I think, helpful to clear up. Somebody asked, "Is on Amazon the Pendulum product *Akkermansia*, is that really the Pendulum product or is it kind of like a, a scam? Do do we have you, what's the answer to that?"
>> Um, the answer to that is, I don't know. Uh, we do sell *Akkermansia* on, um, Amazon, so you will find that. But what we've also seen is there are a lot of copycatters who have taken our same bottle and they're selling it. But, um, you, but it's not actually from Pendulum. And so, um, it, it really is... we, we got to figure out a way to show that it's, it's, it's really coming from Pendulum as opposed to these people who are, because digitally anybody can put a picture up there, and it's not actually our *Akkermansia*. So, um, it's a great question. I am working on it. If you want to be 100% positive that what you're getting is Pendulum *Akkermansia*, you can buy it directly from our website. But we want to... we want people to buy on Amazon, so we need to figure out how to differentiate. Thank you for asking that.
>> Um, okay. Uh, let's see. Uh, oh, you know, there's some interesting questions about, um, sort of like post-viral syndromes, like long COVID. Have you seen any research to that shows that, um, addressing your gut microbiome can actually maybe even lower the inflammation that some people are struggling with?
>> Yeah. I think, um, there we can expect there'll be a lot more research that comes out. So, I wouldn't say it's a hefty amount of literature, but I think there's been some pretty reasonable studies showing, um, that butyrate producers – so this is getting to *Clostridium butyricum* and there's some other strains that are important for production of butyrate – those, um, have been tied to reduction of long COVID symptoms. And so, uh, that that's really the butyrate producers in your gut microbiome. If you can have more of those, and, uh, just to, you know, make life easier, all those same foods that we just talked about that boost your your ketone strains also boost your butyrate producers. So, um, you know, I think that is, uh, through just your nutrition and the and the choices you make daily on what you're eating, that can help you.
>> Well, listen, I, I, I, I want to thank you, uh, Colleen, for joining. I want to say, I'm just looking through, uh, the, the, the chat. We've got people from Singapore and Belgium and Norway, uh, and India, uh, Delhi, uh, we've got people from all around the world, uh, joining us today. And somebody said, 'I feel like I stepped into a biology class.' And I hope you're a biology geek. Uh, but but if you're not, if you're somebody who was like always a little squeamish about science, let me kind of boil down what we just talked about. We talked about the fact that when we're getting older, uh, and we kind of feel stuck, and our metabolism isn't what it used to, our energy levels isn't what it used to. You don't have to accept it. You can basically say it's not your fault, but maybe there's a reason that you can actually try to right-size and restore, um, the person that you want to be. And one place to look at is in your gut for gut health. We talked a lot about different bacteria and keystone strains. And, you know, Colleen developed a company that's, um, uh, that's takes a real science-based approach, which is why I'm a big believer and supporter of the science that her company actually does. I'm a scientist, so I got to call out, you know, I got to call it out when I see good science. And in this case, Pendulum's been doing some really outstanding science. So, you can use that as a, um, a stepping stone towards healing or restoring your gut health. But don't forget, you also want to have a balanced diet, including plenty of dietary fiber and those polyphenols that come from colorful foods that you can find in the produce section. And by the way, good sleep and exercise and lowering your stress are all part of the same equation.
But this was a conversation really that I wanted to have, uh, Colleen, because I start hearing people talking about, 'Well, you know, the I I know people talking about longevity, but I I just want to be able to get through my next week.' Uh, and and I I thought it's time for us to talk about the gut as sort of the, the, uh, the, the, the crucible for energy metabolism health and overall brain health and and and and whole body health. So, thank you so much for joining and contributing and sharing your personal experiences, your professional experiences, your, um, giving some insight into how your work is leading to the, the identification of more keystone bacteria. So, we got a lot of bacteria to discover that would be good for us. You know, a lot of people focus on the bad guys. I love the fact that you're focusing on the good guys, and that's exactly my, uh, approach to health and wellness. So, thanks for joining, and thanks for everyone who's joined us on YouTube live. I, you know, I haven't done a lot of these, but if you really like this, spread the word. Uh, send a message. Let let me know that you want to hear more what the topics are. And, uh, you know, got to give the people what they want. And this is one of those conversations that was prompted by, uh, some feedback I got. So, thank you, uh, Colleen, and thank you all for joining.
>> Thank you.
>> Bye-bye.