Transcription
[Music] Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Swedenborg and Life. It's a special episode tonight. I feel like I've been saying that a lot. It's a special episode, but this one actually is legitimately special. We have a very special guest here with us. We have uh Pastor Howard Storm on the program. And as always, we're going to be taking live questions and comments. So, if you want to ask Howard Storm something, get your questions in on YouTube or Facebook. We'll grab them and try to get to a few of them uh throughout the show. Uh my name is Curtis Childs. I'm the host as per usual, but it's not about me. It's about the It's about the knowledge. Uh so, let me introduce our guest. Uh Pastor Howard Storm is a former art professor and chairman of the art department at Northern Kentucky University. He's best known as the author of the book My Descent into Death about his near-death experience. He's appeared on NBC's Today's Show, The Oprah Winfrey Show, 48 Hours, The Discovery Channel, Coast to Coast AM. But now, which I'm sure is his crowning achievement, he gets to be on our show uh tonight. So, uh Howard, thanks so much for coming on the program.
Thank you for having me, Curtis. Absolutely. And I, as I uh mentioned, when I last week when I first said Howard Storm's gonna be on the show, we had everyone in the chat, "Yay, Howard Storm. Howard Storms." And even my wife was uh excited, especially excited about this show because she's read your book. She thinks you're cool. So we all think you're cool and thanks thanks again for coming.
Um so I want to get to a bunch of stuff and this, you know, generally our show is about Swedenborg and we're not going to stick on him the whole time, but the very first question I just because you you and I had talked before this and you said you had come across Swedenborg's works and actually read a little bit of them. would you just h how did you come across Swedenborg and and how did that interaction take place?
Um, shortly after my near-death experience, I was invited to attend a Friends of Ice meeting, which met at the Swedenborgan Church here in Cincinnati. And I didn't know what that was. Just a cute little church. And I got to meet the pastor whose name was Patrick Rose. And we became um very good friends and his wife also. And um he um lent me and gave me some um Swedenborg books and I read them all. That was um back in '85 '86. Um and I I thought it was all really good stuff. Um and it was really exciting because when you have a near-death experience um it's very common for people to feel very alone because everybody's telling you you're crazy. It didn't happen. You know, like you're delusional, you're hallucinating, you need to go to a psychiatrist. And you're going like, I don't think so. I think God just like, you know, showed me something, you know. Hello. and they're going no and including religious people and a lot of people get burned out but um the Swedenborgans are really open to this um near like near-death studies for example and I'm interested in ideas like um um the universe being filled with life and other planets which were which was part of my near-death experience and um I really found them very um open-minded and as I became um more educate educated in Christianity, I um thought it was really quite compatible, which was the direction I was going, which was um United Church of Christ, you know, Protestant.
Yeah. And I I being a person who hasn't had an experience like that, it's it's great for me to get to see Howard had this experience here, Swedenborg had this one, and here's where they intersect because to me it helps like sort of put the the puzzle together and and it makes it even uh easier to to think this is these guys are really seeing the same thing. There is a objective reality out there. If if Swenborg were if I were able to talk to him today, um he and I would I know we'd hit it off big. I mean I we would we would you know be brothers. Yeah. And hey maybe maybe a few years down the road you know. So oh that's gonna it's going to happen but just that's be another time place. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. 40 years from now.
Um so I I want to just jump in. I know you've talked about your experience that you described in your book a lot. Um, and I I also wanted to mention um I saw some interviews that you did with Matt Klein of Matt Klein Cinematography and I want to point people to the description of this. There's links to those videos. Those are another great one. So, I'll reference kind of both those sources as we go through. I know that you talked about in your experience having what what is now in the near-death experience community called a life review where you were shown uh all the events of your life, but there was a particular emphasis placed on them by by sort of the the beings that you were with or this this higher perspective. I just wondering if you want to talk a little bit about when you see your life in that state, you know, what's important and what's not important and what does that tell us about sort of our our day-to-day life now?
Okay. It was um very apparent very early that the entire emphasis was on relationships with other people. Of course, starting off um as a child with my immediate family and then going on to, you know, my immediate family and school and neighborhood friends and then expanding, you know, beyond that as I grew up. Um I think that I can say uh fairly that all is Jesus and the angels and God cares about is um how we interact with other people. Um and and Jesus also said this in the scripture. He was asked um what's the greatest commandment? What's the greatest teaching? And he says love love God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength and love your neighbor as yourself. The second commandment is much like the first. The way right that we love God is by loving the people that God made including the short ones and the tall ones, the fat ones and the pretty ones and the ugly ones and the mean ones and the cruel ones and the lovable ones, not just the lovable ones. Right. Right. Because that that's not such a hard task.
Yeah. So it makes it a challenge every day. Yep. And does that does that so do you still reference that? I mean, does that does that come to mind as you're making interaction with with these people at the grocery store or the people that you know? Is that still a potent source of inspiration?
It's it's my I'm not kidding. It's really in my life. Um I feel like I'm um a baby trying to learn how to do this stuff. I've only been doing it 30 years. I mean, I'm I'm almost 70, but my near-death experience when I was 38 years old, so I've been doing it over 30 years, but um when I asked Jesus, "What did he want me to do?" When he told me I had to come back from this world, which I didn't want to do, I said, "Well, what do you want me to do?" And it's a big long story, but I'm going to condense it down to the um important point is he said, "Love the person that you're with." And and I and I'm like, "What? That you know, yeah, sure. Okay, but what do you want me to do?" And he said, "No, that's it. That's your whole purpose is to love the person that you're with. So, um, like I'm at the grocery store, you know, all all the grocery stores here, they're all all the cashiers are trained to say, "Did you find everything you were looking for?" They all they all have the same script, you know, and I, and um it's a hard one to make a conversation around, but I, you know, I make jokes. I I talk about their, you know, they wear name tags, so I use their name. I mean, I was a server for seven years. I know what it's like to do deal with the public and be treated like you're you're a a tool like you're just just an instrument, right? You know, and usually very rudely and uh you know, it's very brusk and so like you know, how's your day going, you know? Yeah. Like a person. Hey boy, is it raining outside? You know, you're lucky you're not out there. You know, I you know, I'm going to get drenched taking these ghost. I mean, I I'm not you know, I'm not pretending that we're going to be best friends or anything. That would be an intrusion. You know, it's obnoxious. I just like be a human being with everybody. Be a human being with the servant. You know, say please and thank you. You know, show a little courtesy. Um, you know, look them in the eyes, you know. Um, and where it gets really challenging is when people are nasty to you or when people are trying to rip you off. I Hey, I'm not doing too good with the telemarketers. Let me I'm I got a confession to make. Father, forgive me. I absolve you. Thank you. Yeah, that's and it's it's cool to hear like you had this experience that that's so overwhelming and and so far out there, but yet what you come back with is is very practical. You be friendly to the person at the grocery store that that yeah, kindness kindness, you know, a little bit of compassion. That's that's all God wants of us. And and I know for a fact because Jesus told me this, all he wants us to do is to give it a good try. Okay. So, do do your best. Yeah. because um I I I I hope I don't disappoint you, but I'm not Billy Graham, you know. Didn't make didn't make Let me check my notes. Oh, Howard Storm. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you know, I'm I'm I'm nothing special, honestly. You know, I'm not no big deal. Um and you know, with God, that's like okay. That was one of the other things I learned in my life review that um you know, God doesn't care about any kind of success by our worldly standard. In God's eyes, success is the kindness that we show to our family, our friends, our neighbors, our co-workers, and and to the stranger.
Yeah. And that's that's not if you think about, okay, what are my fiveyear goals? You're often thinking career or something like that. But what you learned was that actually it's really about love, about love, loving the people you're around.
Yeah. And the weird thing is I I know this sounds kind of like magical, but if you focus on love, the other stuff falls into place. Everything falls into place.
Yeah. No, that doesn't that sounds that sounds like it would work. I once heard somebody say, uh, life is like a string of pearls. You grab one and the rest will follow.
Yeah. You're you're grabbing the most important one there.
Yeah. Okay. Well, you mentioned talking to to Jesus there and I that if that would probably be the first question for you that I had is what what's it like meeting Jesus? What what's he like? Can you can you put that into words? Uh do you want to bring us a little bit back to that that part of your experience?
Yeah, I want to I want to highlight a few things. First and most important is that his love for us is beyond any experience of love that we've ever had in our life. So, I'm I'm even reluctant to use the word love, but I I I'm not going to make up a word, you know. Um, his his love is like our our falling in love that, you know, kind of like over over-the-top crazy love that where we fall in love magnified by many many times the love that he he expresses towards us. Secondly, and this is something that I think is really important that isn't talked about, he likes us. He made us. Yes, he likes us. He made He made our nose, our eyes, our mind, our bodies. He made He put us in the life situation that in. He thinks we are the most adorable things in the world. Um I'm a grandparent by many times and the only thing I can compare it to is like how um we just love our grandchildren unconditionally and they can do no wrong. Ah they broke the precious China. Who cares? We'll get another one. You know not important you know and all we want what do we want for our grandchildren? We want we just want them to um live well to be good people, you know, and hopefully fulfill whatever potential they have in life. That's that's what we want for our grandkids, you know, and that's what Jesus wants for us. That's why he doesn't want us to do stupid bad things because those um are destructive. And and and one more thing I want to point out is that Jesus has the best sense of humor in the whole world. And the reason why I know this is for a fact is because he thinks I'm funny. There we go. My wife doesn't think I'm very funny. Matter of fact, you know, a lot of times she thinks my jokes are terrible. Ah, and you know, because I I like to I like to say silly things, you know. I think it's amusing. And yeah, Jesus thinks I'm amusing. Yeah. So, therefore, he must have the greatest sense of humor in the world.
Yeah. Well, you can always say, "Oh, that one killed with Jesus." I I don't know about you guys, but
Well, yeah, that that's that's awesome. And that's very very different than the picture that some people have tried to paint of um, you know, an authoritative figure who is is angry with you when you don't live up to standards.
Yeah. And that's a terrible corruption. Mhm. Because um, you know, one of the reasons why I think I can support my understanding of Jesus is that if you just step back and look at the gospel records, you know, he's he's mobbed all the time. He's, you know, he's constantly trying to get away from these mobs. Now, he was mobbed because he could heal people and there was no medicine as we know it in his day. So, that was one reason why he was mobbed. Um, another reason why he was mobbed was that he had um he had wisdom and charisma that like just astounded people. But there's another reason why he was mobbed that people neglect to think about because he was so beguiling, so charming, so winsome. You know, he was not a person to be terrified of or to be afraid of. He, you know, he actually told jokes. Um I had a um in my u New Testament class in seminary, you know, they were trying to explain some of his things are actually in the cultural context quite funny. Yeah. He used hyperbole a lot, which is like, I've told you this a million times. What's the matter with you? You're not listening. You know, I mean, it's like, you know, I mean, that's the kind of that's the way he talked, you know, idiomatic, you know, um Aramaic first century, you know. Yeah. It doesn't always translate unless you know what you're looking for.
Yeah. Well, I I want to I'd love to, you know, we've been talking about really the the feel-good side of things. What something of course that struck many people about your account was this whole dark first half to it that you needed to or that you went through this experience. Um, and this is actually where I want to bring in some similarities that I noticed between your experiences recorded and and Swedenborg's. Um, I had a I want to talk about there's a quote from Swedenborg in his book Heaven and Hell. It's just like two lines. I I'll read it now, but he says, "Heaven is differentiated into communities and so is hell. Every spirit is a member of some community is sustained by an inflow from it and therefore acts in harmony with it." This is why we are united with heaven or hell just as we are united with spirits. We are actually united to some community there. The community we belong to in respect to our affection or our love. For all heaven's communities are differentiated according to their affections for what is good and true, and all hell's communities according to their affections for what is evil and false. And I I only mentioned that because you talked about that you were at first when when you had woken up out of your body, you got led along in this this long um journey by these beings that ended up being not nice at all and they were they were doing all kinds of harm to you. Yet you described them a couple times. You said, "I didn't want to admit it, but but these were were my people that you had some kind of would you tell so that that to me sounds like this spiritual community. Would you tell me what what that meant?"
You know, if you had asked me before my experience if I was a good person, I would have said, "What's the matter with you, you idiot? Of course, I'm a good person." You know, I gave $15 to the United Way last year, right? What's wrong with you? Yeah. Um, I was manipulative. Um, completely self-absorbed. Um, I thought because I was an artist and an art teacher, I thought that I was justified in that mindset. Matter of fact, um it's kind of expected of like people in the arts, you know, to just be, you know, completely driven alpha type, you know, narcissistic people. And that's what I was. And that's not good. That's absolutely uh opposite of what God wants us to be like. And of course, opposite Jesus. So, um I know that those people that had at me were um people just like me. People that thought they were good, thought they were great, thought they were wonderful, totally self-absorbed. But in the world that they had chosen, God didn't cast them into that place. They had chosen that place. They didn't understand the consequences of what they were getting into. Um although they everybody's warned but nobody believes it. The consequence is that you you go where you're stripped down to your essential nature as Swedenborg described. Yep. And then where the in that world where there's no restraint, no laws, no rules, no no police, no nothing to restrain behavior, people then begin to um act out from the um most their most base instincts.
Yeah. And so so that part of your your experience overall was to recognize the the them in you so you could be separated from it.
Yes. Okay. Yeah. And I this kind of leads into the the other Swedenborg quote I had which has to do with this sort of we've been talking about the the very light side of things and the very dark side of things and sort of the the clash between them. Uh he wrote this in his book Secrets of Heaven number 761. He says, "Spiritual struggle is a battle inside us between the evil spirits and angels present with us and we sense this conflict indistinctly in our conscience. Further vital information about this combat is that the angels constantly defend us and deflect the evil that the evil spirits intend against us." And that reminded me of you said in in an interview that shortly after your your experience, you actually could see something like this this battle going on. Do you want to just describe that a little bit?
Yes. It went on for several months, but the problem was it was um way more information than I could handle. It wasn't just um about me. It I could see that struggle between the um good and evil spirits, between the angels and the demons, if you will, with everybody that came into the room. Now the problem is I found out very quickly that if I tried to um approach that subject with people, they would tell me things like you're crazy. Yeah. You're you're delusional. You're hallucinating. You need you know you need to go to go to sleep. You need to see a psychiatrist. What's the matter with you? Yeah. The people don't take it well when you say, "Hey, I I see this devil around you." Yeah. So after um several months of not knowing what to do with it, you know, I try I try and tell people I said, you know, I tried to modify it by saying, I I think you've got you're in a lot of conflict. I I see a lot of um tension in your life, you know, and then I would say, you know, if you prayed to God, you could protect yourself and you could um find, you know, the right choices in your life. And they're like, "Oh, so now you're gonna preach at us? You know, this I'm I'm a sick man in the hospital saying this stuff to people who've come to visit me or, you know, treat me or whatever." And um anyways after like I said after 3 months I realized I what I don't know what to do with this stuff just and I prayed to God I said take it away from me I don't want it and it was gone.
Yeah. And so what what have you what does that teach you though that do do you still do does that still stay with you that the awareness of this struggle and and what can we as individuals do um to to come out on the right side of it?
Well, because we are so hopelessly ignorant of the nature of the spiritual world doesn't deny its reality. Yeah. Therefore, what we have to do is to protect ourselves and the ones we love um with prayer and with faith. And um we have to avoid opportunities for evil to have an influence on us. Like let me I mean you I'm going to mention some real obvious things like um drunkenness and um drugs are opportunities for um demonic forces to come into our life. you know um passions that are destructive like you know anger um greed, lust, you know those are all opportunities for because the way you get these demonic influences is not by you know I mean some people are satanic but most people are not overtly satanic. They just like um they get greedy and they want and they want and they want and they want and they're like, "I'd do anything for that. I'd do anything for that." And like that's all a demon needs to hear, you know? Oh, really? You do anything? I'll show you a way because one characteristics of the demonic is it lies. It always It promises you good. Like for example, um you know, all over the United States, we're having a heroin epidemic. Who doesn't want to feel better? I want to feel better. I got aches and pains all the time. An old man, you know, I'd like to feel better. You know, the heroin dealer offers um young people an opportunity to feel better. And then they become addicted and it's um destroys their lives and their families and society around them. I mean, if that isn't demonic, I don't know what is.
Yeah. But you don't when you're first offered it, you don't see all the the consequences tied to it.
No. You told, "Hey, he's gonna feel better. Don't worry. It's not addictive. It's it's free, you know. Hey, have a hit."
Yeah. And so sounds like a deal. Good deal.
Right. Right. And and so that that's sort of the nature of of all these evil things that are presented to us. You know, the same thing with with anger. Hey, it feels good to get get even, but but you don't realize that it's doing sort of a similar thing to the spirit, right?
So h are there are there precautions that that you take? I mean, do you have like a sort of a daily routine or something to to keep yourself safe?
Well, that's why I believe in religion. You know, the interesting thing in our society, you can talk about spirituality, but when you start being religious, you know, all of a sudden it's like, oh no, you know, I'm going to cut this interview off right now. Yeah. Right. And so, um, I'm a pastor and I do things that you would, um, hopefully expect a pastor to do. I I pray frequently. I um I read scripture and I meditate on it and I read other and um good stuff. I don't watch garbage on TV, you know. Um I want to associate with people that I think are spiritually good people. They don't have to be Christians, but I want the spiritual people that are um, you know, that um enhance my spirit rather than detract from it. Um, so all all of my I mean all of my friends are good people. Um, and I I kind of embarrassed by it because I really should be out there dealing with the drugs of society and I don't very much. Um, and um, most importantly um, I try and keep my um, heart, my mind and my soul focused on um, Jesus Christ as a real living presence in life because he knows everything. He knows every everything I think. He knows everything I do. And so, um, I want to live a life pleasing to him. So, there's a I can't hide anything from him. You know, that's the that's the problem with Jesus. He can't hide anything from So, like if I if I'm feeling anger, what I do is I say, "Hey, Jesus, I'm getting really angry. That person really upset me. Um, will you help me? Will you help me work through this?" And and and I got to go through a process because I'm not a a saint. So, I got to work go through a process of looking at my why am I angry? Why am I feeling so hurt? you know, why am why why am I being so defensive, etc.
Yeah. So, and it's not like expecting to not have those feelings. It's just about acknowledging, okay, I I can get help with this uh from from Jesus.
Yeah. And we're not even going to talk about lust, right? I we can talk about anything. Maybe we maybe our viewership would go up, you know? Uh but but it it's it's the reality of things. And so so and I I remember hearing in in your interview with Matt that when you first met Jesus, you were worried because you're like he's going to know everything. I thought, you know, even when I was a teenager, are we sure we want to go there?
You know, so so but he didn't seem to care.
No. Um he, you know, knows the human nature better than we know our own nature. And um it he you know there's an old Christian saying you know God um loves the sinner and hates the sin. That is true true. Jesus loves us and he just doesn't want us to do things that are destructive to ourselves and to our relationships with with one another. And so um, you know the the negative things like greed and lust and drunkenness and stuff. It's not that um they're inherently bad. They're just destruct self-destructive and destructive to the people around us.
Right. And that's that's a very different feel again from the sometimes you have people setting Jesus up as yeah this this person with very very high standards and the whole he's kind of testing you to see are you good? Are you worthy of me or not? But you're saying that the only reason he doesn't want us to do things is because he's worried about the welfare of us and the welfare of other people.
Right. because because the bottom line is he created us every single one of us to be amazing and wonderful by his standards and um that's what he would like to see happen in the world where people had the uh possibility of living up to the full potential that he created us in. Yeah. Everybody's been given um very special gifts and um in fact has the potential to um accomplish a great deal in this world.
And is that so the the sort of um if we want to call it the hell state that you saw that those people were in is that just a a refusal of those gifts?
Absolutely. And of course the the greatest gift of all the greatest refusal of the gift is that what God represents is a benevolent world, a benevolent universe, a a loving universe, a kind. That's what God represents. You know the Bible says God is love and he's created a world where it could be a loving nurturing world and most especially toward its children. Okay. And instead um that is not the way the world is. I mean nobody not even the biggest polyiana in the world would say that this that's the way the world is like the world the world you know I think at at best can be described as um haphazard and dangerous and chaotic and um threatening. I mean you know would you would you tell your child yeah sure go walk a few blocks you know your little child go walk a few blocks and and meet all the strangers and go into their houses and and enjoy them. No, that'd be a terrible parent cuz you don't know. I mean, the worst things imaginable could happen to them. We teach our children to be afraid of strangers and to avoid, you know, contact with people and because we have to that's how can we have a world of love when we live in a world that's full of danger?
Yeah. And is the is the haphazard nature of it the this world that we're living in now does that trace back to this this larger clash between uh heaven and hell or good and evil that that you saw?
Absolutely. And the sad thing is is that we have the power through our faith through our spiritual faith to protect ourselves from evil. I mean, I this might push some people's um credibility to the limit, but I mean, I've I've participated in a number of exorcisms of homes. Mhm. Um when people have told me that there was some kind of like, you know, evil spirit going on in their house, you know, um their children, I mean, most especially their children were were being um, you know, um constant nightmares at night, you know, waking up in terror and stuff like that. And and I'm happy to say that when we did the exorcisms, um it all went away. No more nightmares, you know, good night's sleep for the parents and the children, stuff like that. Um, we have the power through faith to um to make our world safe and sound.
Yeah. And was that was that um intimidating for you the first time you got invited to something like that?
It wasn't intimidating. I didn't know whether I was doing it right or not, but I I guess I did it right. Right. The results, you know, I w I walked around the house and said really strong from the heart prayers in every room, you know, that was it.
Yeah. That that did it. I guess you can't argue with those results.
Yeah. Well, so I I want to bring in uh we have questions from from the audience. I wanted to take a look at a few of these. Um uh so let's pull up our first one. This is from YouTube, Riah. Uh Mr. storm. Did you experience any of the things in hell in described in Swedenborg's writings or meet or speak with any people? So overall, Howard, did you what were your experiences with the hell side of things and and what were they like?
I was taken by a committee to this place of darkness. And then when um I realized that this was going very bad, very scary, um I said I wouldn't go any further and they told me I had further to go. And at that point, um, they turned on me and they, um, very slowly and methodically first tore me apart and then vi violated me in every way that they possibly could until there was nothing left of me. That was my interaction. And those are the people that I met and talked to.
And that that um that was right before you met Jesus, right?
Yeah. Okay. So, he pulled you out of that. All right. So, let's take a look at the next question. Uh this is from Yokopo. Uh can I ask about Howard's vision of the future? What do people do all day? What kind of houses do people live in? What did they wear? So this is from I think uh your book. You had a vision shown to you of the future.
Yeah. Jesus said, "This is what the world's going to look like 200 years from now." That was in 1985. Um and there were a variety of ways that Jesus explained to me we were going to get to that future. um some good and some bad. But I'll talk about the future. Um I didn't see any dwellings at all. People were in complete control of the people were connected telepathically over the entire earth and intergalactically and they controlled the weather. And so the people would go like we you know things a little dry. We need some rain. Let's bring in some rain. And they would like all you know invite the rain to come in and the rain would come and then it would go. um people um spent their time um very very very um dedicated to the nurturing of children. That was the primary focus of the future was the nurturing and loving and educating and caring for children. Um as I said I there I didn't see any dwellings at all. I don't know if they had any. Um my sense was they didn't. Mhm. um I could not perceive any technology. Someone has um said to me maybe the technology was so discreet you didn't recognize it. And I'm I'm willing to um say that that's certainly a possibility. But um people wore a lot of ornaments. Um but it was all handmade crafty stuff and I that may have disguised like um technology but I didn't see any um applicational um people. there was um no sickness because when people got sick, the community would come around that person and they would pray for them and they would be healed. Um when people had reached an age where they had felt that they had fulfilled everything they were put in this world to fulfill, the community would gather around them and they said it was time for them to ascend to heaven and everybody would pray and celebrate and the person would lay down and they their bodies would stop functioning.
That's beautiful. And so I know that um you know we're not there now and that was in '85 you said. Has there been anything you've seen happening in this world between then and now that you've said oh maybe that's the like the ancestor to what comes uh in this vision.
Um as I mentioned Jesus both told me told me and showed me alternative future scenarios. Uhhuh. and one was very destructive and ugly and another was um very beautiful. And so I'm always I'm I'm ultra vigilant looking for signs of what I would call the great awakening or the great revival that's going to lead us into that future. And I would love to tell you I would love to tell you that I'm seeing signs of it all the time. Just hit me with the truth. But I but that's not what I'm not what I'm perceiving. And I'm seeing um the world becoming um sadly more more greedy and more materialistic. And I and I'm I'm really concerned because I'm I'm old. I'm I'm ready to go. I'm I'm Hey, beam me up Scotty anytime. You know, I'm good. Um but I've got um eight grandchildren now. you know, I've got um kids and you know, I don't know what kind of world they're going to inherit because we seem to be going um the wrong way.
Yeah. So, it's it would be if everyone just decided we're going to go for this good future, it wouldn't it's not that we don't have the people power, it's just that we're not um we're not choose making the right choices.
Correct. All right. Well, hopefully hopefully uh you know later like tomorrow you'll call me and say, you know, right? We're getting on it. All right. What's the importance of like the work that you're doing and what I'm I'm trying to do with my life. It's like um you know, I'm not the Messiah. You're not the Messiah. We we're painfully aware of that. But what we can do is we can um point the way, you know.
Yeah. And I that's it's been really encouraging me to encouraging to me to see the response to this kind of content that that we've been getting on YouTube that your book has gotten. I know that you told me uh you're you're going to be there's going to be a movie uh about your your material. So, it is exciting to see that there's at least an an interest in the kind of things we're talking about.
Yeah. All right. Let's uh let's take a look at the next question uh from the audience. This is from Matt. If you do a good deed for the sole reason of going to heaven, is that technically unholy because it stems from a selfish reason?
Oh, that's an interesting question. I think that um honestly I mean to be brutally honest everything we do has an element of I want to clean up the word selfish. Okay. I want to use a euphemism. Sure. Enlightened self-interest. There we go. That's lawyer speech. Well, look, if if I do something that's good for you, I know that it's good for me. Mhm. And so, I'm not going to knock myself out. I'm not going to beat myself up worried about whether it was too much of my self-interest and not enough compassion for you. Right? I mean, it's like there's a mixture in there. Um, I I would hope that my uh reasons are altruistic and self-sacrificing and um, but as as a human being, you know, part part of the reality is is that I think about my own self-interest and in a way um that's okay, too. You know, I I need to I need to take care of myself. I need to pay attention to my needs and my wants and, you know, and my um general well-being. You know, that's that's not a bad thing. On the other hand, I hope that um that's not the only thing that's motivating me. I honestly um and this may be a little hard for the college to um take but I don't do things for the intention of getting it to heaven. Mhm. Because I can't I can't by my own merit go to heaven and in fact nobody can. The only way I can get to heaven is through grace through through the gift of God that he gives us through Jesus Christ. So, he says, you know, if you believe in me, um, I'll come and take you to heaven. Like, he says that in the Bible, in the Gospel of John. Um, I I know that's true. I I take him at his word. Um, I can be a big screw-up, but with my um trust in him and with my intention to live a life pleasing to him, whether I more or less successful, and believe me, it varies from day to day and hour. um, you know, he's he's going to make good on his word. He he is trustworthy. Um, there is nothing nothing how many times do I have to say nothing I can do to merit going to heaven. Um, and there and and I absolutely have no idea of how to get to heaven. You know, like what do you do when you die? You like you know when you die you're like totally confused and lost. Trust me. Yeah. You don't know nothing. Um, you can't get to heaven. um, the only way you're going to get to heaven is he's he says that if you've lived a life putting your trust in me, your faith in me, your hope in me, whatever. Um, and done and you know, try to do it reasonably. Give it the old college try so to speak, um, you know, you're good to go. And I I know that I know it. It's in the word and I believe it and uh that's the way it's going to work for me. So I'm I'm not doing anything to get into heaven. Alls I'm doing is trying to um live live a in the moment today this minute live a life pleasing to him.
Yeah. And it sounds like it's really what about the intent more than the results even.
You nailed it. Okay. Absolutely. Absolutely. You you nailed it right there. Great. Great. Good. Well then, so once again, I'm not Billy Graham.
Well, I'm just glad that I made my presence here worth it tonight in that one. All right. Let's take a look at the next question. Duana or Joanna, how would Howard suggest that Christians function within a church if their perspective of Jesus's message is more liberal than traditional doctrine.
Um every every church has its own personality and what we want to do in our churches. And I'm speaking about this both as um a lay person because obviously I've been a lay person as well as being a pastor is you can't um hammer people. You can't force them into um being kind of open-minded. Like let me let me take some easy subject like homosexuality. Yeah. Right. Well, just just skim the surface here. Yeah. Um, I believe that gay people have every bit as much right to be in the church and to be loved and accepted fully. I mean, okay, we're not going to talk about whether gay is a sin or not. We're all sinners. It's a level playing field. Bible talks about lying over 360 times. It talks about homosexuality five times in the entire Bible, right? Um, God is much more concerned about us being liars than about um what we're doing with our um sexual apparatus. Um, it's not it is clearly not that big an issue. Um, they're human beings and they do deserve to be treated with love and respect. Now you encounter people in the church who are homophobic which means they have a psychotic you know not an unhealthy response to homosexuality and they're they're very very difficult people to um uh deal with because they're just full of uh fear and anger and hate and defensiveness and a lot of um you know they really need professional psychiatric help and how do you deal with them in church so what can you do what can you do in church and I tell talking about this both as a pastor and as person. You take people where they are. You love them and you try and take them baby steps, small increments into um you know, knowing and caring for other people.
Yeah. All right. Well, that that's great and that's practical and that feels very like if love is important, let's let's get the love first and then then it'll sort itself out. Great. All right. Next one. Uh question. This is from DNx68. Do you have do you still have contact with the spiritual world? Do you have enhanced psychic capabilities since your near-death experience?
Yes. Would you say a little bit uh well, can you read my mind for the next question? Would you say a little more about what what what that's like?
Um it's a heavy responsibility and I don't take it lightly and I don't like to talk about it because that seems like that's um really egotistical. I feel all right. I'll just be honest with you. I feel like I'm the most fortunate human being in the whole planet because Jesus and I are buddies. Yeah. We're close and he tells me stuff and I tell him stuff and we and we um and we hang together tight.
Yeah. Well, it's it's awesome and it's just that vision of it can be like that is inspiring, you know. So, I appreciate you uh sharing some of it with us here.
Yeah. All right. Great. Let's take a look at the next uh question is fromma 2011. Howard, what kind of and we've touched on this a bit, but how what kind of spiritual practice do you recommend? Can you describe more in depth how you meditate and what does Jesus think of our spiritual practices?
Um first of all, I want to say it's all good, especially if we're if we if we take on a discipline um you know, that's been tried and tested. You know, it's really interesting because um we live in a time when everybody's looking for the newest craze and and it's so funny because um a lot of this stuff is pretty ancient like for example uh you know you mentioned meditation and you know that goes back to centering prayer which is what the early Christians were doing from the get-go. Um and even in fact they they formed a whole group of people called monks who would go off into the desert. We're talking about the third century, you know, I mean, you know, like with a few hundred years of people saying, I want to do centering prayer like all the time, not just, you know, some of the time. So, I'm going to go off and live in a cave and hopefully people will throw some, you know, barley my way once in a while and feed me. Um um there's a monastery close by that I um like to visit frequently because they um pray all the time. They meditate
all the time. Um, so the the pre, um, you know, pe people get all hot and bothered about whether Reichy can be Christian or not Christian, stuff like that. You can do everything in the context of your Christian faith. And, uh, one of my great heroes, Thomas Merton, who, um, in fact, was at this, uh, monastery that I like so much, the Abbey of Gethsemane, um, was, uh, contacting Buddhist monks because he felt that they had a great deal in common. And, um, in fact, he died at a convention that he had organized between Christian monks and Buddhist monks, and he was trying to get the monks of the world to all go, like, "Hey guys, we're all after the same thing, you know?" Yeah.
Um, so, um, I don't, I don't mean this globally, but within our, our own cultural context, within, um, our upbringing, you know, I'm, I'm a, I was raised as a child in a, in a traditional congregational church in New England. And, you know what? Um, "A mighty fortress is our God" rocks my world, right? Mhm. And I, I like to go to a church where they do, um, traditional hymns because that's what I grew up on, and it just, it just brings me back to that, uh, the faith of my childhood and my upbringing. Yeah. And I think you'll get a lot of people who have a, a similar experience where something really works for them, but they'll say, "Okay, because it works for me, everyone's got to do this." But it seems like you're saying, do what works for you. Yeah.
And, you know, and, and I can't understand why everybody doesn't like, um, double chocolate almond coconut ice cream. It's a no-brainer. Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm kind of like, uh, very passionate about it, you know. Um, why doesn't everybody like it, you know? And when we, when I, I go to pe people to the ice cream store, you know, like I'm the only one ordering, and people are getting like weird things like black raspberry. It's like, why would you get black raspberry? Running? I mean, it's just taste. It's just taste. Yeah. Yeah, it's all good. Absolutely. It's all good. I love it. I love it. I love it.
Let's, uh, let's take a look at another one. We got a lot of questions coming in here. This is by Drive by Poet on YouTube. "How particular was Jesus regarding right conduct? If one has goodwill and kindness, would it be proper to be quiet and mild-mannered without jokes, smiling, laughter, and excessive chatter?"
Um, gee, I think, um, jokes, smiles, and, uh, chatter are all signs of, uh, friendliness. Um, you know, I, I think, of course, the important thing is, you know, a certain degree of moderation. You know, earlier I mentioned, you know, like the, the strangers that we meet, like the cashier at the grocery store and stuff like that. You know, you, you can't monopolize your time, and when they're done checking out, it's time for you to move on. No, especially with the person like breathing down your neck behind you, wanting to get checked out. But, um, you know, like, what about the bagger? I mean, do I always acknowledge the bagger and thank them? Mhm. Do you? I mean, that's, you know, and I, and I smile at him and ask him how's it going, and sometimes I try and engage the bagger in a conversation if the, if the, uh, you know, the cashier isn't too, I mean, um, ignoring people and, and being, um, you know, uh, formal and, and, um, I, I think that's actually kind of rude. And so that maybe goes back to, we get our some of our sense of humor from from Jesus's own sense of humor. Yeah.
Hum. Humor is lightening up. You know, you know that old, uh, saying, you know, "Have you heard this one?" "Do you know why angels can fly?" "No." "Why?" "You haven't heard it?" "Uh-uh." "Because they take themselves lightly." Ah. Oh, I love it. Great. Well, thank you for arming me with that one. Yeah. Um, we, we need to, we need to lighten up and be joyful people. You know, there's a line in the scripture that is, it seems like nobody's ever read it except for me. Jesus says, "May my joy be in you and may your joy be complete." Right? He wants us to be filled with his joy and be joyful people. That's a, and that's a wonderful vision. Uh, that, that's a pretty, pretty nice guy, you know, if that's, if that's what he wants.
All right, let's take a look at the the next question. This is from Shelley. "I am a recovering addict, very spiritual now. Will I be judged on my past?" No. When we are straight up with God, and if this person's gone through recovery, I assume they've done the 12 steps, which is like a, the whole 12 steps thing is a complete God deal. The 12 steps is more Christian than most Christians are Christian, right? In my opinion. And I happen to be very familiar with the 12 steps because I was very involved with Alanon, that's family and friends of alcoholics for a long time. Um, so I know all about the 12 steps, etc., and the traditions. Um, when, when you go through those steps, which is relying on a higher power and, um, you know, confessing your shortcomings and making amends, etc., etc., um, you, you've done everything that God could possibly ask of you.
And, you know what? Here's the incredible thing. Um, it's all gone. It is all gone. You know, um, you know, we, one of the cool things about, um, our faith is that, uh, we can be born anew every day, get a fresh start, and everything's behind us. God doesn't even keep a record of it anymore. It's incredible. You know, God edits the book of life every day. Yeah. Good. Yeah, the things spill out the back there. We fill it up with, uh, with new good pages. Yeah. And that's, and that's the sad thing about people that don't have any faith in God, because they have to carry the burden of all that stuff all the time. And that bur, that burden is overwhelming.
And did you feel like, you know, because you said before, your experience, you, you didn't have really a, a belief in God. Did you feel like the way you carried burdens changed after your experience? Oh, 100%. Yeah. Completely. Great. All right. Um, so that, there's, there's a good message because I know we get a lot of people writing in who have struggled with addictions or things in the past. So, it's good to hear that that there's nothing that that is going to weigh us down forever. That anything can be lifted if we take the steps. Absolutely. Great.
All right, let's, let's just do a couple more here. We're getting near the end of the hour. Um, but we'll let a few people get it in. This is from Karen on Facebook. "I don't understand how we don't miss the people we leave behind when we cross over. When we go to heaven, we can actually see and hear them from heaven. I mean, as if we were there. We're not there. We're in heaven. I mean, sometimes people in heaven get a sort of a special assignment to come back as a guardian angel. But that's not the norm. Most people in heaven are very aware of the loved ones that they've left behind, and they have a completely different perspective on what's going on down here, because what they want from us, the ones that are still here, um, to have a good life, to love one another, to care for each other, to be good people. That's what they want because they know that in a few minutes, by heaven's clock, they're going to come home."
I call, I call heaven home because that's where we belong. Um, and so they know that, I mean, they're, they're waiting, you know, "You're going to be home in a few minutes, you know, like, you know, don't you think it's about time to clean up your act and get ready to do this, you know?" Um, because, and then, and then of course, um, they feel sad for the people, um, that don't want to come home, you know. It's like a whole different perspective on life, but they also know that, uh, in God's infinite mercy and grace, there's always hope somewhere, somehow. Yeah. Wonderful. So, so they can, so it's not that they, we cross over and and forget about everyone we knew in this life. We continue to care about them. We care very much about them. Wonderful. All right. But we also know that, um, in God's infinite, uh, mercy, there's hope for everybody, even the worst. Yeah. And a, a sense of trust that that God has taken people on the path that that's their best shot at at coming home. Yeah.
I mean, like, like the Bible tells us, um, that Jesus went to hell when he died. He went to hell and he preached and he saved a lot of souls. Yeah. I think he probably saved a lot of souls because he's, he's, you know, he's very attractive, uh, character. He's a pretty good man. He's got some charisma there. Yeah. And, uh, and he did it that time, and I don't know how many times he's done it since, and how many times he'll do it in the future, right? Yeah. Why, why wouldn't he if he, if his goal is to bring everyone into as much happiness as possible?
Um, all right, let's, uh, let's take a look at one more question here. Um, oh, it's a, a simple one to answer. "Are there more people in hell or heaven?" [Laughter] Um, if I knew the answer to that, yeah, I would not be sitting in this chair talking to you. I would be, I would be in heaven. Uh, right. You know, in close proximity to God. So, I'm sorry, but I'm, I'm not being glib, honestly. Um, that's above my pay grade. Yeah. I mean, and, and I, I wonder, uh, Yeah. If, if there's, what kind of clearance you have to have to know something like that. Yeah. All right. That was a short one.
So, let's do one more here. Um, this is Williams Marie Joy. "I want to know, are our loved ones allowed to visit us from time to time, even if in our dreams?" Yes. And there are, um, lots and lots of accounts. I know that when, um, one of my sisters died, my other sister had a very powerful experience of her after after the departed sister had died. Um, and she called me up, totally freaked out. I mean, like, "Could that be real?" I like, "It was a gift from God. She was telling you she's okay. Just accept it and stop, you know, getting all anxious about it, you know?" Yeah. What a beautiful thing. Yeah. So that the, that the other side really is that close. Yeah. Wonderful.
Well, and because I, we do get a lot of people here wondering, Yeah. Because they, they'll have an experience like that, that was really awesome, but can I believe that that was really what I think it is? So, I think what you're saying is, Yeah. Yeah. Great. All right. Well, I, I want to say thanks to you for coming on the program tonight. Um, I, like I said, I read your near-death experience. It was one of the first ones I ever read, and it had a profound impact on me. And, you know, for you to share everything, you know, I feel that the hope that you've found, you know, the way that you describe it, um, you know, just even hearing secondhand about it for me, this is like, wow, like that, there can be love like that, that there can be comfort like that, that you found has been inspiring. And then since then, I've read so many things in Swedenborg that I, that particularly with your experience, I say, "Oh, these guys are talking about the same thing." So I've always wanted to make this connection. So really appreciate you coming on the program. Thank you for having me, Chris. So I appreciate it. Absolutely. I just want to let everyone know you can go to howardstorm.com. Uh, that has all, all kinds of links and everything. Howard Storm on there. And you, you're a pastor of a church right now? Yes, I'm serving, um, St. Mark's United Church of Christ in Tony, Kentucky. Little tiny church. If you're in the neighborhood, stop on by. Yeah, you can increase our attendance by multiple times by coming by. You can make a difference. All right. Well, well, thanks so much for giving some of your, your Monday night. And, uh, hope, hope to talk to you again someday. Thank you. God bless you.
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