Transcription
Have you ever wondered how you can build a multi-billion pound business from scratch? You start out in Yorkshire and you build a business called Home Serve, a multi-billion international business. You raise the money, you take the risks, and all of that in between. Well, today I'm meeting Rich Tarpin, who has built that business from scratch. He then went to sell it for a considerable multi-million pound exit. He's invited me to his beautiful home here in London. We're going to sit down in those two chairs. We're going to find out what's his habits, how does he think, what sets him apart from most people. He is the unicorn. He's the exception to the rule. Let's find out how Richard Harbin made his millions.
Richard, thank you for allowing us into your beautiful home. We're in West London. I suppose this is class, or is it central? Uh, this is uh, this is Marleybone. Marleybone and uh within 10 minutes of my offices at King's Cross.
Super. You've built an impressive business empire. You're 60 years old. Your assistant said to us, you're actually a 60-year-old in a 29-year-old's body. And she said, "That's what you would tell us." Is that what you believe?
Yeah, that's my uh, that's my fitness age. I'm a big believer in work-life balance and focusing on fitness and health. And um, as people get older, their uh amount of sport they do diminishes, and I thought I'm going to do the opposite and do more sport. So, um, did my first two half marathons last year. Uh, did an Olympic triathlon with my three kids the year before. So, trying to fight the aging, and my fitness age is coming down every year.
And it's still ambitious now as a 60-year-old as you were when you were 40 years old.
Yeah, I would say more so because um, I know more now than I did 20 years ago, and business is my passion. Uh, really enjoy it, and I want to impart all the mistakes that I've made to help other people avoid them and the um uh the things that I've learned that I wish people had told me at the start of my entrepreneurial career.
Are you worried about time running out?
No, because I think um my philosophy is we're only here once, and if you can cram three lives into one, that's what you need to do. And um, time is precious. Um, time management is really important and cramming as much in. But that is um working hard and doing the sport and family stuff.
Do you get frustrated if you were to sit on the sofa and watch a movie? Would you find that's a waste of your time?
Yeah, I think if if I uh up early, working hard during the day, uh if I slow down and try and relax, then I probably fall asleep on the sofa.
It's interesting you said about work-life balance. Do you really have a work-life balance? Are you just saying that or do you really have a balanced life?
I think maybe I look back and um try to be home for bath time when my kids were young. Uh, did I do it enough? Perhaps not. But I think it's really difficult, isn't it? In the early years of building a business, uh you got to focus on that because your um uh income relies upon it. Uh, your employees rely upon it, and um that's got to be your number one focus. But I hope that I got uh some amount of balance.
Do you think you feel, do you think you think differently to most other business owners? I mean, because you built a 1.4 billion revenue business. That's got to put you in the 1% of the 1% of the 1% of the 1%. You know, we only know that 5% of businesses get past 10 million of revenue. So, so what is it that makes you different? What are your idiosyncrasies? What are your habits? You must do things differently.
I think it's two things. I think um number one, it's about um uh I started my first business age six years old. I'd done about five businesses by the age of 20. So it was getting all the learning from those and accumulating that learning and knowledge and experience that I could come back and apply when I'd found the the big business idea that was going to be the one that was really successful. So I think it's partly that, and then um that makes you an action taker.
Yeah. So I I mean it's clear to say you're an action taker, and I think lots of entrepreneurs and business owners that get a certain level of success are action takers, but I really want to get inside Richard's brain. Do you think you think differently?
Yes, you've said you're an action taker, but what are the habits and thought process you have that have made you get to that 1% 1% 1%?
I think it's my three values and behaviors. Yeah. And they are uh number one, courage. So you've got to have the courage to um find an idea and make it happen. Uh, even when there's um adversity. So it's that sort of resilience that goes with the courage to really prove something out. Um, it's number two is persistence pays. So there's always going to be obstacles, and you got to find a way through those. Maybe a good example would be uh we'd launched water supply pipe cover, and um John Prescott came along, deputy prime minister 1997, and told all the water companies that repairs to the underground water pipe in people's gardens should be free of charge. That could have spelled disaster for the whole of Home Serve, and it's about taking an opportunity or a problem and turning it into a bigger opportunity, and we said uh let's go out and announce to every household in the country that um there is a free basic repair of your underground water pipe, but it won't replace the pipe. It won't um uh replace your flower bed or your driveway where the uh the pipe is dug up, and it won't cover the the rising main under your kitchen sink. And so we provided that gold cover, and it became the fastest period of growth in the history of Home Serve.
Wow. So that's courage, persistence. What was the third one?
The third one is integrity. And by that I don't mean honesty because hopefully we take that for granted. It's about um confronting the brutal facts. What's the elephant in the room? You've got to be able to talk about that. Get all of the data and uh address the current um situation. And that's really, really important. If it's um uh an underperforming manager that you've got in a business, you've got to face the reality of uh they need to leave in a nice way and they need to be replaced. um, if there's a project or some part of the business that's not going well, uh you can't just keep going. You've got to say, well, let's um let's sell that off. Let's get the focus back on the bit of the business that's going really well.
So, so the courage, persistence, integrity, they're good habits, good morals of running a business. And I can see that that's part of you. And I don't think most businesses, I mean, I think a lot of people want to be like that. Whether they're in reality like that is a different thing, but certainly most of the super successful people I meet sort of follow that. But do you, what I'm trying to understand, Richard, is this you are of this tiny minority. You're effectively a unicorn amongst the rules of business owners. Hardly anyone gets to where you get to. So, I'm going to ask you some things now. Do you think you had rare and protected forms of leverage in terms of connections? Did you have good connections? Did you have access to talent? Did you have access to finance and capital resources? Or were you more comfortable with risk than most people?
I don't know. I'm just I don't want to put words in your mouth, but yeah, I had uh had none of those things. When you when you're first starting, you don't have uh the capital. Uh, you don't have the network and contacts. um, with my business partner when we we started Home Serve, and the precursor was a business called A1 FastFix, a yellow pages based emergency plumbing service, and we put our life savings in, which was £50,000, not more than that. Um, so maybe it was about the ability to take risk. It was about the ability to be able to blatantly copy. And we're taught at school that copying homework is bad, but in business, I think it's really good. I'd rather go second, find somebody that's done something and say, "We'll copy that, we'll improve it, and then we'll go really big."
Absolutely. So, so do you think is Richard Harpen really comfortable with risk? What or does he give you the heebie-jeebies?
Um, I think you've got to take a a balanced approach to risk. So, uh, in growth partner, my investment business where there's a team of 12 people now and we're looking for great entrepreneurs running consumer retail, leisure businesses, and uh, we're looking for those that are profitable to the tune of two to five million pounds of profit, and we want to inspire breakthrough and help them to make it big. So, uh, my level of risk-taking there would be I don't want to invest in businesses that haven't yet proven the model or aren't yet profitable. To me, that would be an unacceptable level of risk. And maybe because it's a I'm a Yorkshireman, I'm a bit tight with my money. I don't believe in all these loss-making digital businesses. Uh, I believe in businesses that are profitable and then helping them to scale.
You quite like, like me, old-fashioned, predictable. So would you invest in cryptocurrency or would you invest in software as a service businesses?
Uh, I definitely wouldn't invest in crypto because I don't really understand it, and I think you got to it's got to be things that you understand. Yeah. Um, SAS software I think is a um a great model, and actually uh I have invested uh a business called um Abbington, and that's a roll-up of going and buying mission-critical small SAS software businesses uh that they might be running the the membership for a gym chain, they might be running the uh the management of a holiday company. So it's interesting.
So you're buying SAS products attached to real tangible businesses, in effect, something where that business if they're buying the software, the only reason they stop buying the software is if they go bust. It's sort of mission-critical and it's niche.
Yes. And a very talented management team that are buying these businesses, helping focus them and grow them. And then it's a a buy and build model.
So, what what's the the the least amount you've invested and what's the most amount you've invested in another business where you're not controlling it day-to-day as CEO?
Yeah, I think probably the least was um a couple of million pounds. Um, and today my biggest investment is at 20 million pounds of my own capital, and that was in
Let's just pause there, Richard. So 2 million is the least of your own money. You know, this is not borrowed money. This is Richard's hard-earned, your your children's inheritance. In effect, it's your
So 2 million is the the bottom and 20 million's being the top. And you have an appetite to do more.
Yeah, absolutely. I've got um I back 13 entrepreneurs with my uh my own capital. That's to the tune of about 150 million, and uh want to do around uh three more investments a year, finding the uh the right entrepreneurs with a proven model that is highly scalable.
So why do that rather than put 150 million into an S&P 500, a Footsie 100 bond, you know, why what or do you I mean, do you do you like that? Do you think that's a good thing?
Um, I don't invest in the stock market. No. Uh, my only investment in um a listed company stock was my investment in Home Serve when we were a a listed company from 2004 to um uh when it was sold a couple of years ago. Uh, I never made any money on um picking stocks and shares. And actually uh I want to be investing in that individual and saying um I think you can help, I can help you avoid all the mistakes that I made over 30 years in Home Serve, and some of the things that were really successful. Uh, they are now the uh the nine steps on how you build a billion-pound business. So I want to combine my learning, my capital in helping those businesses to grow and only ever by taking a minority shareholding because it's their business. Uh, this is showing them, not telling them. And I'm backing them, not trying to run their business for them.
So when when you put in your two to 20 million quid, what you've done so far, what happens? You say that that's yours, you can take it off the table, or do you put the money in to help them take the business to the next level?
Yeah, normally quite often this is um not an entrepreneur looking for money. We would do um desk research, find businesses that are growing really quickly, that look like they could be making between two and five million of profit. Uh, we'd knock on the door and say, "Uh, I think you got a great business. Can we talk?" And have you ever thought about can you grow faster and can you derisk? Yeah. So if you've got 100% of your wealth tied up in a single business that you're running, then uh I think entrepreneurs always have that worry about what if it goes wrong. And a lot of private equity and venture capital will say um we will put some money into your business, but you can't take any out because we want you 100% committed. We would say um we think you should take a bit of money out. uh, pay off your remortgage, pay off your family and friends, put a little bit of money in the bank for a rainy day in case it all went wrong, and then put the rest of the money into the business, and you can take a higher level of risk, and you can go faster, and you've got extra money to do it properly. Uh, hire the right quality senior suite team, not trying to do it on a shoestring.
Really interesting point there. I was just thinking as you said that, you have probably been one of the rare and protected people that have been able to have in the room conversations with very successful entrepreneurs and business owners on their way. How many of them are borrowing money from friends and family to feed the beast to keep it going? Do you see that as a regular thing that happens?
Yeah, I and that would be my advice. So I um uh here in my home in Marleybone have 15 entrepreneurs around the table every week. I run a two-hour uh growth workshop and talk about my nine steps, uh all the learnings, uh it's an interactive discussion, and uh step number two is uh get an investor, and that would say do it at the right point in time. Don't go and get an investor before you've proved the model. Try and keep the model really, really small. Copy, pivot, test, learn, and only when you've got the magic model do you then say, "Right, now we're going to scale it and go big." And I made that mistake. I'd got a uh a plumbing model that didn't work. You can't make money on a one-off plumbing emergency when people only have that problem every five years. Cost of yellow pages advertising was too high. And I saw my life savings of £50,000 go down the drain in literally six months. We ran out of money. Knock on the door. It was a bailiff. They came to take away the office furniture. This was Christmas 1992. And I got a belief that I wanted to build a big business, and we got to find a way through, but we'd run out of money. Don't go and get an investor when your back is up against the wall and you've run out of money. Do it before you run out of money. And then I made a second mistake, which was uh we did get half a million pounds from a water company, South Staffordshire Water. uh, they took 52% of the business, which uh at the time felt a lot, but we were desperate, and we went for that deal. I then uh grew the business and thought great, I've got half a million pounds now, I'm going to grow fast. Every month the business grew. Every month the break-even line got further away, and all I did was grow the wrong business model from losing £10,000 a month to losing £50,000 a month.
Wow. And a year later, back in the same position that we'd run out of money. So the key bit is keep the model small until you prove the model. It's really because I've never taken on VC private equity. I've always used a bank, and that was going to be one of my questions towards the end, but I think we're here now.
Would you rather take investor cash or bank capital to grow the business, borrowing, bank debt?
I think it uh depends upon the situation or the um or the timing. Um, I think there's great value if you can find, it's not just about the money. If you can find somebody that can uh put a bit of cash into the business at the right point in time, uh a minority investment, and they're bringing knowledge and experience, then that's a uh that's a double win. Yeah. Yeah. Um, banks are cautious institutions. There is a role for bank debt. Um, that would be when you've got a proven model. Uh, maybe um uh you're a a business that needs to um fund more product. You're making a product in the Far East, and you need to fund the stock. Then that would be a good reason for taking bank debt that is secured against the stock with the lead time before the money comes uh comes in.
Have you borrowed money to fund your businesses from banks in your career?
Um, we did have a um we had did have a debt facility in uh in Home Serve, but um uh we didn't really need that. The business was highly cash generative. The main reason for floating on the stock market in 2004 was so that Home Serve could have an identity in its own right. That we could separate out the regulated water business from Home Serve, attract the right quality of people. Um, we did one equity raise once, 125 million. Uh, but then we also did um uh a hand back of money, um, special dividend to um shareholders for about the same amount of money. So actually we didn't, we weren't on the stock market to finance our growth. It was um mainly self-funded.
Are you comfortable with debt? Is it something you know for business? Not personally. What's your view on it?
Yeah, I think at a sensible level. So um two or three times your annual profit. Um, not really high levels of gearing because I think that puts some undue pressure on a business, and really people are successful when the pressure is off and uh you're providing that sort of comfort and support for somebody to um to grow.
How often in your career, I mean you've been in business because because you had a very high level personal career working for one of the like Procter and Gamble wasn't it that you used to work for, you had a very high level job with them, didn't you, before you started Home Serve?
Yeah. Um, after my economics degree at York University, uh I'd been running a uh a mail-order fly-tying material business uh while I was still at university. um, hadn't found the big enough business idea uh after I'd finished and decided that I should go and work for a big company, learn about marketing and how to run a business and um joined Procter and Gamble in Newcastle as the the brand assistant in marketing on uh Very Liquid. That's why my hands are still so soft. Yeah.
And do do you think it was good for you to do that? Has it helped you in your career?
Absolutely. Um, uh taught me about promotions, marketing, pricing. Um, it was sort of being a mini MD. Did that for four years and uh really, really helped. So I am a big advocate of uh getting into business, but you don't have to do that sort of straight from school. uh, many people might be uh in business for 10 or 20 years before they say, right, I'm going to take the risk, have the courage, take my learning and set up on my own. Got it. And I think there's no right or wrong whether people are born an entrepreneur as I think I was because I started really early or those that fall into it in later life, um, both can be equally successful.
Do you class yourself as an entrepreneur or as a businessman?
Um, as an entrepreneur that um became a chief exec and had to sort of learn that. But um in my um step number five, the most difficult lesson for an entrepreneur is hire your replacement. Yeah. And that's about saying um I was a rubbish chief exec. Great on the vision and the ideas and inspiring people but not good at running the day-to-day.
Took me eight years to realize that. Uh, there was a guy in the business called Jonathan King, uh, business development director in Homeserve UK. Uh, called him into my office one day and said, “um, Jonathan, you’re promoted. I’m giving you my job. You’re now managing director of Homeserve UK,” when we were only a UK business. And that then meant I could work on the business rather than in the business and started thinking about, “I wonder whether home serve would work in a foreign country.”
What sort of revenues were you at that point when you decided to pivot out of the day-to-day? You remember? I think we were probably doing about um, 20 million of profits.
So you, you managing the business got it to 20 million with some talent around you. Yeah. So um, we’re probably 20 million profit on 100 million of revenue, uh, UK only and thought, um, “now could be the right time to get somebody to keep the UK growing, focusing on delivering great customer service as well as that growth.” And then I can think about the next idea and um, uh, whether the business would work in uh, in France, which is where we went um, first after the UK.
Looking at Richard now, what are you outstanding at and what are you weak at? I mean, you said that you don’t like managing a business and you think others are better at that. So that’s one of your weaknesses. Although I, someone to build it up to 20 million, I reckon you was pretty good at it. I think the only, I think the only thing I’m good at, and there’s more things that I’m bad at, is um, two words would describe it I think and that’s now my career objective for the next 25 years and that is inspire breakthrough. And I think if you went to any of the 10 Home Serve chief execs that are running each of the 10 countries and said, “what, what part did I play?” Uh, they were the ones that were growing their individual territories. They would say that I challenged them and I inspired them and as a team we delivered more than we ever thought possible. So I wanted to sort of um, take that skill and say, “how do I get that out there in my posthome serve career?”
Uh, I’ve now stood down as chairman of Homeserve to say, um, “I really want to focus on uh, midsize businesses here in the UK,” because as a country we talk about startups and we talk a lot about small businesses and we forget about scaleups and we’re not very good at doing them. And yet, well done you. We have about 75,000 midsize businesses. I define those as turning over more than 3 million pounds, uh, employing 15 people but not yet 250 because that would be the definition of a large company. We only have seven and a half thousand large companies in the UK like Home Serve is obviously one of those. And what about if we could have 15,000? That would do more than any government to create economic growth and we dearly need that in the UK today and over the next five years. And that, uh, those next large companies are not going to come from startups in the next five years. They’re going to come from scaleups. So that’s why I wanted to get my nine steps on how you build a billion-pound business out there. Uh, that’s why uh, I thought, um, “how can I do all of this and put it together,” and this journey started about two years ago and um, writing a little pamphlet which was called um, uh, “the eight secrets to building a billion-pound business,” and I shared that with other people that have that included uh, Ben Francis at Gym Shark. Yeah. Uh, Greg Jackson who used to work for me at home serve, he’s built the biggest energy company in the UK, bigger even than British Gas in only 9 years with a 20 million-pound investment. Uh, Octopus Energy. Yeah. Wow. Now worth 8 or N billion. And he’s there in that list with me of um, the 56 founders that have built a business worth more than a billion and are still uh, involved in some way. I, I absolutely find the facts about business success and failure in the UK and the western economy is just outstanding, how hard it is for people to break through. And again, I quote that there’s only seven and a half thousand people. The seven and a half thousand companies employ more than 250 people. I, it’s like that’s the size of a an average size village in the United Kingdom. If people can context that into their brain, I just, yes.
And so hopefully there are um, uh, lots of your avid viewers, James, that are listening to this and saying, “Well, I’ve got a business that’s turning over more than three million. I’ve got an ambition to go from being midsize to big size, then I would say um, come to one of my free growth workshops.” Despite the fact I’ve got lots of people reporting to me, despite the fact as a listed company, a great board of non-execs and a chairman. It’s still lonely as an entrepreneur at the top. And what I wish I’d had was uh, nine or 10 other uh, people in the same position that we could have met regularly and said, “let’s share our issues and opportunities and learn from each other.” I agree. One of my favorite quotes in life I just want to see if you agree and I think you do is, “you become the average of the five people you spend most your time with.” Do you agree with that? Yeah. And that’s why you need to keep upping your game. Um, in business leader, we have these uh forums which are peer groups of 10 founder, chief exec entrepreneurs and they’re done in uh turnover range. So, uh, you can outgrow your forum and then we’ll promote you into a a higher level of turnover forum. We’ve just set up our super forum. You can only join those 10 people if your business is only is already turning over more than 100 million pounds.
And going to step number three, get some coachment that says uh, “go and find a coach or mentor.” Um, I did it a bit late in my uh career and regret not finding that first coach or mentor earlier. And then don’t be afraid to change them, because you’ll outgrow uh, the stuff that they’ve helped you with or you’ve got a different problem or opportunity to tackle and therefore you want to go on. Uh, when we bought um, Checker Trade back in 2017. I thought, “stuff,” you just casually put that in. I mean that’s a massive business isn’t it? Um, that took a lot of courage. I had to go to my board and say, “I want to buy this business and we’re going to have to pay 74 million and it’s only making 1 million pounds of profit today.” And I had the courage to go and ask my board and they had the courage to back me. One day soon that business will be making 74 million pounds in annual profit. Wow. And so, how much did you pay for it or you’re not allowed to say? Uh, we paid 74 million pounds for the business. You paid 74 million when it was only making, only making a million. That’s how did they go? Yes, Richard, let’s do this. Here’s the check. They uh, they had the courage to back me. Uh, I had the conviction that it, this is going to work. Yeah. Um, if you read my uh book that’s coming out in July, Yeah. Uh, “how to make a billion entrepreneur,” Richard. I will say you must have got about five promotions in in the last 10 minutes. Yeah. I um, my board didn’t always back me. Yeah. Um, I wanted to open home serve in India and they said, “that’s a stupid idea and it’s too high a risk and uh, we don’t think you should do it.” And despite I was the part owner of the business and the chief exec um, what I always did and they would say is um, “I’ve got two of them,” and I did listen with both ears. Um, I would leave that board meeting thinking, “ah, we didn’t get that agreed,” but I would then take time to think about it and say, “actually, great that they challenged me,” and um, look back and thought uh, “it would have been really difficult in India and I’m glad that they um, they did challenge me.”
Did you ever get the umping board meetings? And no, I never ever um, uh, I’ve never lost my temper. I’ve never shouted anybody. I’ve never said, I’ve never used the card that, “if you don’t, I’m a major shareholder in this business. I’m the founder and if you don’t back me then I’m going to resign or go and do something stupid.” Never, never ever did that because um, you’ve got to listen to people, you’ve got to listen to your team and then you’ve got to make your decision. And um, did you ever have moments where you thought, “No, I know this board is wrong and I’m right.” And then, yeah. And and on those uh, where I’d got uh, absolute conviction, I’d go away and think about what was said and if I still believed in my heart of hearts that I was right, then I’d go and gather additional data and I’d go back to the board and I’d persuade them and that was the uh, persistence pace. There was another example and um, my very first chairman, a guy called Lindsay Bry in his memoir. He um, uh, he wrote about me in Homeserve and there was a a business that um, he thought that we shouldn’t have bought and he let me buy it without the challenge and actually it was the wrong acquisition and I dearly wish they’d had the courage to say, “no Richard, stupid idea,” and they didn’t because they said, “home serve is going so well that we can’t say no because he might take it badly,” but they should have had the courage there to say, “stupid acquisition, don’t do it.”
Do you think growth by acquisition is a good thing for entrepreneurs to consider or just organic growth or mixture of both? Um, M&A, going and doing acquisitions is uh, one of the growth levers that’s available. I would say that if you, if you look at experience then um, big companies that go and buy another big company and it’s a diversification away from their core business uh, they tend to go wrong. Um, the acquisitions that really worked in homeserve were going and buying home assistance policies that a uh, a utility company had developed themselves. We could show them that uh, uh, we do it better. We can grow a home assistance business quicker, deliver even better customer service. So, we’d go and say, “We’ll buy them. We will sign a 10-year marketing agreement, and we will give you an ongoing royalty and commission or a deferred um, uh, uh, earnout part.” Every deal that we did and we did probably 50 or 60 of those deals over 10 years. Um, they were all successful. Um, we went and bought small heating installers and uh, those were successful and that was a buy and build model going beyond heating breakdown cover and repairs to say we should be replacing the boilers and then getting into heat pumps and solar. So uh, the buy and build model of acquisitions has worked. So you were effectively doing more of the same. Yes. Yeah. Equally we went and bought stuff that was two stage removed from what we were doing like doing repairs for home insurers in the UK which was after a uh, a burglary or a flood or a fire. We went and bought those businesses. uh, working for home insurers was low margin and somebody could always do it cheaper. So we ended up uh, selling those businesses, focusing back on our core and wrote off a lot of money uh, but learned from the experience.
What was the most you wrote off? Can you ever remember any big numbers that you as a board had to write off? Yeah, I and it was my responsibility. I went and spent 130 million on acquiring businesses and we sold them for 20 million. I remember going out to stock market and this was in sort of 2009 and announcing that that uh, we just sold the businesses for 20 million that we’d bought for 130. And guess what happened on the day? The share price went up by 200 million. And it was because two things. One, I got the courage to go out and say, “I was wrong. I messed up and I’m really sorry, and I’m going to focus back on our amazing home assistance policy business.” The shareholders said, “What a relief. Great that he’s doing it. Good that he’s admitted that that didn’t work and got on with it proactively and quickly and now focusing back on the core.” And uh, that’s really good.
Fascinating. I mean we get now 1993 Home Surf started but few years ago you sold it privately to Brookfield, is that the investment firm and they bought it 4.1 billion and that took it private again away from the stock market and for you that was the beginning of your exit and I suppose your big liquidity or wealth creation day, you as a, what a rich wealthy man, but I suppose this took you into a different league that allowed you to invest in two to 10, 20 million and into other scaleup entrepreneurs. You then come on to grow growth partner and this is your, I suppose, is it a private equity business or do you see it? How do you label it? Um, I would say that it is um, one entrepreneur investing in another. Okay. And uh, it’s my own capital. We’ve got a fantastic team that uh, support the businesses that um, uh, the entrepreneurs that I’m backing. And so we take a bit of a different view in the sense that I’ve done it. I know how hard it is. I know what the learnings are, all the mistakes I made. And so it’s sort of hopefully it feels a bit different for those entrepreneurs when we’re um, uh, putting my money to um, back their future growth and success.
How hands-on are you on growth partner? Are you going to the board meetings? Are you signing off the last investment decision? Are you saying, “I want to invest in this company, make it happen?” What’s your, yeah, I allocate um, a day and a half of my working week to growth partner. Um, I don’t sit on any of the boards of the investments that uh, we’ve made because I don’t think that’s where I would add the most value. Uh, one of the growth partner team does sit on each of those boards. Um, I’m always available and so that would be for a uh, strategy session. Uh, that would be a a one-to-one catch up with any of those entrepreneurs. So, um, uh, uh, today I’ve got, uh, Dan from Creature Comforts, a fantastic, um, organic growth, uh, vet business that, um, uh, he wants an hour of my time. So, it’s one-to-one. He’s, uh, coming here this afternoon and he’s got an opportunity he wants to discuss and get my advice on. So that would be if he came into you and he said, “look I found six vets for sale and I’d like to buy them Richard or can we buy them,” and if you in that hour go, “yeah this looks good,” would you then say growth partner team, the 13 people would make the final decision or do you still, are you still the typical entrepreneur go, “yeah let’s buy it next week,” trying to get in your, you know, I, I would give my point of view but then uh, with a caveat that uh, “I’m only the founder and the chairman of growth partner. I’m not the chief exec,” and that it is your money, isn’t it? Yeah. But um, uh, I respect the uh, the chief exec Jason Mahendran and his team. So we uh, we have investment committees and we review the data. We have that discussion and then we make hopefully the um, uh, the right joint decision. Trying to get is there some gut instinct to Richard, you know, is there like, “I can just, you know, my I’ve got these isms, this entrepreneurial sort of vision that that most people can’t see,” you know, that’s what I’m trying to get. Yeah, sometimes and uh, in our portfolio meetings where we’re reviewing the performance of the existing businesses or in our investment meetings where we’re talking about potential future investments then uh, I do use my gut feeling. I will give my point of view. But um, do you get rolled eyes from your team? Oh, he’s, oh, Richard thinks this. No, I think they would uh, respect my point of view and um, but then it would be um, uh, “I want to persuade them of my point of view through uh, data and discussion.” Uh, never through saying, “Well, hold on a minute. It’s my money. Uh, I know you all disagree, but we’re doing it anyway.” That’s never done. That’s just not my style.
Have you had, I mean cuz Growth Partners been going what four or five years now? I’ve been going 10 years and um, have you had a exit on that yet that you proud of and say that’s really made a difference to the person that you invested in first or has that happened yet? We’ve had uh, one exit and that was a business called Enterprise Nation uh, run by Emma Jones. This was actually a business where um, I invested in it because it’s an organization that does help startups and very small businesses to grow. So I believed in her mission and her passion. Um, I invested about £700,000 when it was really small and um, she then wanted to become owned by uh, Silver uh, a big American online community type business and um, so we sold uh, we got a good liquidity day for uh, we got a seven times return on our investment in I think about three and a half years. So muscle top that’s uh, that’s our only sale of a portfolio company. Was you sad to see it go or are you a collector or are you buy sell or do you like keep it, you Warren Buffett or a, I, I um, I, I think that um, you uh, you need to do some exits. Um, that would be about sort of backing the entrepreneur in when they want to sell then I’d want to sell at the same time. Yeah. You don’t want to force the sale I don’t at 5 years. Yeah. I, I don’t think you want to do stuff forever. Yeah. Uh, I did do home serve for quite a long time, but uh, when we got the right buyer for home serve in Brookfield, uh, it felt the right time and when we got a um, a a very good price that was right for all of our shareholders and was uh, a great price also for um, for Brookfield to pay, then uh, it was right to exit. So I don’t think you should do things forever. Um, so I would say I’m not a not a collector but equally um, this is not private equity saying, “oh we’re coming in for a quick return and we want to be in and out in ideally two or three years.” This is about what’s the right exit time and to who for the um, for the founder entrepreneur.
Just quickly, I’d like to touch on when you were selling Home Serve, how much of your time was involved in making that happen. Were you the driver of that or did you have others in the business looking after that exit? Um, it took quite a bit of my time because um, obviously a really important transaction. Um, we had uh, we had three advisers and um, that was really important in helping us make the right decision as a board on what was the price at which we would sell at and then making sure that the deal did then actually happen and that it got the regulatory approvals in the countries where it needed to be approved. Um, I’m a big believer in um, you can find the extra time to do those things but equally it was important in making sure that many people in the business weren’t focused on the transaction but were focused on running the day-to-day business as normal because the most important thing was making sure that Homeserve was going to go on and be successful in the next chapter of its growth. It wasn’t the end for home serve. It was a uh, a new beginning. The reason why I decided to stay for two years is moving from uh, group chief exec to chairman was I wanted to make sure that the that there was that transition to um, to my team that uh, the business was growing that it got the benefit of my knowledge and experience and um, I wanted to learn how to be a um, a chairman. Uh, one of the things I did because it can be quite hard going from a hands-on entrepreneurial chief exec to a uh, hands-off non-exec chairman was uh, I went to INSEAD to train as a business coach for 12 days in 2023.
Did you? And with a big bundle of money in your bank account. I mean, because that must have been a big day for you. I mean, that, that’s real wealth creation. That’s the day where I’m sure you looked in the bank and went, “Oh, that’s a lot of money.” Didn’t change my life because um,
I'd done a one-off share sale, uh, back in, I think it was 2010 or 11, and that took enough money off the table that secured, uh, my financial future forever and for my, u, for my kids. Um, so, um, it, it, it wasn't life-changing. I guess what it did was sad. Um, cuz you're not in charge, are you then? And it's the thing you've got. What was the, um, I believe in step number seven is evolution, not revolution. Yeah. So I didn't want to sell up and leave and retire to my desert island. Um, I wanted to evolve where I stayed involved for a few years that I could help Brookfield and my team, and so that was the evolutionary bit, and I didn't want to go from, uh, being chief exec five days a week to then just leaving. It felt a lot easier to have that transition.
And what I did do was spend three months looking back at, um, uh, what have I learned? What are the nine things I know now that I wish somebody had told me at the start of my career? Um, there are tens of thousands of books out there. How do you know which one is the right one? And, um, so I've determined that, um, I could put together those learnings, and then I wanted to, um, uh, to get them out there. So, I think that's really helped in my transition.
Um, I still do mentoring for my American chief exec, Tom Rousen. Uh, he's the guy that grew the business when he first joined Homeserve in 2010. The business was making $10 million a year over there. Last year, Homeserve America made over $250 million. He's still there 15 years later. Wow. And as long as he wants me as his mentor, I'll be there to help him. Uh, that's, uh, free of charge, and I want to do it because, You like him? Home. I, I like him. Uh, I like all of the team, and Home Serve will forever be my, my baby. That's why I asked if he was sad because I, I think a lot of people I've met that have exited their business, they have this, this hole afterwards. I've had dinner with my bank with people that have exited their business, and a lot of them, you know, they get this jubilant day, week, and then the reality kicks in that because you work with these people, they become like family, don't they?
I promised the chief execs when I announced at a, uh, a gathering in London, um, at the end of 2024 that I was standing down as chairman, uh, they said, uh, you've got to come and, um, uh, spend half a day in the business and then have a lunch or dinner with our, um, our local teams, and I promised to do that. I did it in Madrid two weeks ago for Home Serve Spain and went and sat in on a deep dive session and then provided my thoughts and advice coming out of that, and then we went and had a, um, a nice lunch with Fernando Prito, who's an amazing chief exec at Home Serve Spain and his team, uh, amazing chief execs hire fantastic teams, and we reminisced. And we actually started up in, um, in Spain in 2005. Uh, we backed an American guy called Steven Phillips who, uh, spoke Spanish, um, and came and opened up the business. But the breakthrough was when in 2007 we bought a little business called Reparalia. Uh, got 150 people. It was doing repairs for home insurers. So people would be watching this, right? Oh, we bought a little business, 150 people. I mean, I was turning over 25 million euros. Yeah. Uh, we paid 25 million for it. Uh, it was losing a little bit of money, but it, it gave us a credibility in Spain. Holding. Fernando Prito then joined in 2008 and took the business to 2,500 people, uh, a business that will make around 60 million euros profit this coming year. And what an amazing job. Wow. And, uh, I, I number, I did have a tear in my eye and looking back at, um, what the team had achieved. All I did was, uh, help them a little bit along the way with a bit of my experience and learning, but they did it. I was just there to challenge them and inspire them, and they achieved more than I ever thought they possibly could, and there's a lot more still to come. So I'm looking forward to, um, going to the other countries and doing the same, celebrating their success, and Brookfield know, and all the Homeserve people know that, uh, if they ever need me, I'm still there to, uh, to help.
Are you quite an emotional guy, Richard? Um, I think people would say that I'm, uh, I'm passionate, that, uh, I've got a lot of energy and try and challenge those emotions into positivity and growth and inspiring those other entrepreneurs. What gets on your wick? What makes you angry? What frustrates you? Nothing makes me angry. Um, what frustrates me, and I, I, I have a, um, uh, a one-page note that anybody that, um, uh, ends up working for me as a chief exec that's reporting directly in or any of my, uh, team, um, we share how we should work together and my motivators and demotivators. And the things that demotivate me are long PowerPoint presentations that are presented on the day. Uh, absolutely not. I want to see, uh, short notes. Uh, if it has to be a PowerPoint presentation, it needs to be on half a dozen slides, not 50.
What makes you really happy? Um, having great people that I'm backing that work for me that I'm working with where, um, all I say is what can I do to help you? Um, can I open a few doors for you? Um, what can I do? And don't feel afraid to ask me to do anything or use a bit of my time. I'm never too busy. So, it's working with amazing people that I'm not going to them in a weekly one-to-one and saying, "Oh, these are the 10 things on the to-do list that, uh, we need to talk about." Uh, it's their to-do list. They're sending it a day in advance. Uh, we're having a good discussion, and at the end of it, I think, wow, they are, um, that feeling of they're really making this happen.
What's the most essential KPIs that you track in your businesses? Some of them will be quite different between businesses, but if you said what are the core ones, then it's about, um, number one is customer satisfaction. Uh, that might be measured in very different ways. Uh, it might be a Trustpilot score, it might be a Net Promoter Score. Um, but that is the number one thing because if you're looking after customers, if you've got the right product that customers, um, really value, then those other KPIs will follow, which will be, uh, looking at, um, the revenue growth, looking at profitability, uh, looking at cash. Some of those businesses cash can be really important that there's enough cash to, um, support the growth of the business, buying the stock that might need to be invested in for 3 months before it's, um, it's sold through. You see, these are little things you really do. I mean, obviously, you know, but they're the things that I think until you're in it, you don't realize it with these people that you invest in. I suppose if they, you want them to go through some pain before they come to you in many ways, they understand stuff that you just naturally get in your DNA like that. You know, if you've got a cash flow problem, how have you come through it? You know, once you've come through it, you've become stronger, don't you? Ready to, Yeah. There are businesses that we find where we say, um, here's our thoughts and advice. Uh, we can't invest yet, but it's, uh, we're not saying no, we're just saying not now.
And have you come back to anyone where you said not now, then a year, two years later, you've gone, let's sign the deal? Uh, there's a few that, um, uh, we will do fairly soon. Oh, that's a great story. What we would say to them now is, um, you're turning over over 3 million. Um, go and sign up to, um, Business Leader because that can help you with the framework for growth. That can give you a peer group of other chief exes and CEOs, uh, uh, and entrepreneurs that you can learn from. And, uh, once you're a bit bigger, once you've proved your model, then, uh, then come back to a certain, it might be that, uh, now is not the right time for anybody to invest in your business. You need to sort of keep going on a shoestring, small scale, prove the model in a way. Yeah. Don't, don't take money and dilute your equity too soon in the way that I did. Yeah, I don't regret it, but because it all worked out in the end, but, um, ideally you don't sell off 52% of the business when you're really small and you haven't proved your model.
Right, I've got some quick questions. Um, I've got some quick answers for them. Um, what did it feel like to hit 1 billion in revenue? Can you remember when that happened? No, because, uh, revenue was not a KPI for Homeserve that I particularly looked at. It was sort of sales is vanity. Yeah, we would look at, Um, No, but I'm sure many, hardly anyone does that. Uh, we'd look at, uh, how many members have we got and what's the profit rather than, you didn't know when you hit a billion? No, genuinely, um, cowboy stuff, we just done a billion. I definitely knew when we hit the sort of 100 million profit threshold, and that would have been, um, what I think you need to do is, um, businesses are really busy. When you reach amazing milestones, it is important to celebrate. Good. Good.
Um, what is your favorite business model? So, you know, we spoke before we came on air. We was talking about various business models. I think you said about florists, I said about other ones, and you know, I like love, want, and need businesses. Um, you know, where people buy from you from like a subscription model, they're buying regularly. Have you got any models you think, "Oh, beautiful. I love it." The models I like are owning the whole of the, um, supply chain, uh, all elements of the business. So, um, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to manu be the manufacturer, but definitely you own the product design, um, your having your product made, um, right through to owning the end customer. Yeah, because that's where you get, uh, pricing power. Uh, that's where you get the potentially, I like recurring income models. Yeah.
Can you give us an example of where you've implemented all of that into one of your businesses? Um, yeah, in HomeServe. Fine. Well, we started off saying we're really just a clever marketing company, and what we're doing is we're renting somebody else's brand, the utility company. We are using an insurer to underwrite the risk of providing the free cover. Um, we are using a claims handling operation to answer the, uh, the calls and send out the subcontract, uh, plumbers and heating engineers to, we're going to take over the claims handling. We never did the underwriting because that's a low margin business over time. You, we owned the taking the call from the customer, the 24-hour claims handling. Um, we supplemented subcontract repairers with our own directly employed plumbers and heating engineers. Um, made it higher barrier to, and we did particularly in the US develop the HomeServe brand, um, not just sell through utility companies, and that's been highly effective, and that's growing in America. So, uh, yeah, we own much more the value chain, and that's really, really important. Summarize that the favorite business models of Richard is to own every stage of the, the customer journey in effect.
How did that look in a couple of businesses that sit within the Growth Partner portfolio? So in Easy Bathrooms, we supply, um, bathrooms to both, uh, installers and direct to homeowners through 140 showrooms around the country, and all the products you manufacture, 45 or 50 bathroom displays. Uh, we've grown the business from 40 showrooms on industrial parks to 140, and we now use subcontract installers to, uh, do the installations. So the customer can buy not just the bathroom suite, but we can also give them a price for the installation as well. So they don't have to go and find a bathroom installer. We do the same with, uh, Flooring Superstore that, uh, we can give them a price and a guarantee for, um, uh, installing the flooring, not just supplying it. I, I when I met you before you speaking about these bathrooms, how big is that business in terms of revenue? Uh, it's, um, it's just gone over, uh, 100 million revenue. 100 million of revenue. And what percentage of that business do you own through Growth Partners? Um, 30%. Fine. Have you got a sweet spot on what your ownership percentage you like to have or is it case by case? Um, not a majority. So this is minority investing. Um, there's a few businesses where we've got, uh, less than 10%. Abbington, the, the roll-up of SaaS software businesses, um, Gozney pizza ovens, and, um, uh, we invested there at a sort of a later stage with Gozney and, um, uh, typically though we would, um, ideally like to have sort of 20 to 30%.
Have you ever lent money to businesses rather than invest in them if someone comes to, No, that's something that, um, I don't do, uh, want to be involved in the equity as a co-owner but not as a sort of bank or pseudo bank, multiple businesses, multiple brands, all under the Richard Empire. So you need high-level teams to help run it. And I'd like you to be succinct in bullet-point answer to this. What do you look for in your chief execs? Not the entrepreneurs. These are managers of the business. What are your three, four, five points that you look for in terms of the, uh, entrepreneurs that I'm backing, not entrepreneurs, chief execs, the MDs, the people. So we, we understand the entrepreneurs. I think we've discussed that, the people that you like to run the day-to-day so the entrepreneur can go off and look for the next opportunity. Uh, there was a recruitment, uh, saying at Procter and Gamble which is has done, can do, will do. Say that one more time. Has done, can do, will do. So I'm looking for chief execs that have done it before. You can look at their numbers and their results and their success and say it was them that did it. They've been successful and therefore they can do it, uh, again and be even more successful second or third time round, and the will do is good. Yeah, it doesn't need to be in the same industry. Uh, ideally there would be some related experience. Um, but that's really important and finding those people and life is short. Better to find somebody that's proven rather than take a risk on somebody that isn't. Take sort of take someone's 10,000 hours of practice, purposeful practice, and sort of swap. And the sort of people that will have been successful as a chief exec will have, um, what Jim Collins calls those level five leadership characteristics. They will be hardworking, resilient, uh, they will be curious, uh, they will be persistent. Some of them can be quite quirky and introverted. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you don't need to be really outgoing and, um, I like those ones that are, um, quirky and introverted, but they know what they're doing. They're hardworking. They know the value of hiring great people into their team.
Have you had to make sacrifices to grow your business? And what would you say they are personally? Yeah, I think it's, um, uh, not being home for bath time every night when my kids were young. Uh, I did, I did manage it a few nights a week, and that was important, but, uh, I wasn't there all the time, and that was a, um, sacrifice. Would you say you're a workaholic? Um, I would say I'm a life-aholic that I want to get, um, uh, I want to do lots of sports. Uh, friendships are important, family's important, business is important, and how can you fit that all into your, um, uh, into your life? If I asked your PA, "Is Richard a workaholic?" What would she or he say? Yes. That's good. Um, what would your team say you're not good at? Having, uh, a lot of patience and, uh, focused on the day-to-day. So, they would say process impatient. So, you're, what would your team say you're not good at? Yeah, they would say I'm, um, too patient. Uh, I'm impatient that I'm always driving for let's get it done quicker. Why, Why are we taking so long? We need to be more agile. I'm looking, so what you're not good at. What would they say you're not good at? I mean, that's all great things, isn't it? What am I not good at? Um, from their point of view, then I would say probably trying to hide my emotions when I'm frustrated at something. If I've just sat through for some reason that PowerPoint presentation that could have been done in half the time, that wasn't sent to me in advance, um, where, uh, it's with people that are just not good enough.
Why do you still do it? Because, um, hopefully you can see I've got a passion for business. I want to work until the day I die. Are you addicted to it? Um, yeah, probably. Um, uh, not for 100% of my time. I do think I can get the balance and achieve lots of stuff. But yeah, I, I love business. Uh, why am I still doing it? Because I want to look back with Business Leader members that have been paying their membership fee for five years and say, um, if I hadn't joined Business Leader, I genuinely think my business would not be as successful, uh, it would be smaller, and thank you so much for what you've done, and do you feel you got an ego there? No, I think it's that, uh, feeling in my heart that, um, I've helped somebody and it's made a real difference, and it, it, it wasn't me putting in a lot of time, but I helped in that little way and it worked.
Is legacy important to you, your legacy? Yes. Because I want to inspire breakthrough in 7,500 medium-sized businesses in the UK over the next 5 years. Sign them up as Business Leader members, uh, and, uh, help them to become large, and we will be able to measure it. How many employees and what was the revenue when they joined and then what was it five years later? Uh, we can't obviously take all the credit for that, but you can take a little bit and say they did go from medium to large, and hopefully we, uh, we helped a bit with that with my career objective which is inspiring breakthrough. We're going to play a little game here. We're going to pretend I'm the prime minister and I ring you up. I said, Richard, I've got a stagnant economy here in the United Kingdom, and I want you to be head of growing businesses in the UK, what are you going to do? Uh, I'm doing this already in a way through, um, I sit on, uh, NatWest Midmarket Council, and that's coming up with initiatives on how we can help businesses to grow, and, uh, so number one would be, uh, the Help to Grow program that is a, a really good training course for businesses, but it's focused more on smaller businesses. We need a version of that for midsize companies. Yeah, absolutely. And, uh, why don't they do that? I see hopefully, hopefully they will. They'll be listening to, um, to this and saying we're going to take some of that existing funding and come up with a, um, a pivoted version of that course for midsize businesses, and that will really help. Number two would be, um, we've got to get more apprenticeships, and I think the tide is turning. Uh, the large company apprentice levy doesn't work. We need to be channeling some of that money that is currently unspent and is going back to Treasury. We need to be taking more of that money and diverting it to midsize businesses to say they should all be taking on not one or two apprenticeships but, uh, 10 or 20 apprentices, and that can make a long-term difference. Absolutely.
What about retirement? Something you consider? No. So you die, you retire. I want to evolve, and that will be saying, uh, there's a bucket list of holidays that I want to take. Um, I would, um, uh, at some stage like to take a few more Fridays off to have longer weekends doing, uh, exciting travel, spending more time with, um, uh, my kids and, uh, my friends, but, uh, I'm never going to retire, uh, I enjoy business too much, and hopefully that will mean that I will have a, a longer and happier life. Richard, you've got a pub which really is a hospitality and leisure business, the most devilishly difficult sector. Are you making money there? Yeah, but that wasn't the objective. Uh, the pub is called The Alice Hawthorne and it's based, um, uh, between York and Harrogate, and, um, uh, I live in a, um, small village in Yorkshire, and, um, the village, uh, was about to lose its pub, and that takes the
I bought a pub, heart out the village. I, um, I said, um, I need to buy the freehold from Punch Taverns, put somebody in to run it. I'll lend them £50,000. And I said, "It'll run itself." And of course, it didn't. Within a year, I'd lost my £50,000. Uh, I put in a succession of chefs and managers. That didn't work. Eventually, I found a fantastic couple. Uh, has done, can do, will do. Yeah. They'd run uh the Angel at Heton and the General Talton, John and Cla Topham. And they became my business partners. I gave them half the business for free. I bankrolled it until it got to profitability, and uh, 10 years in and uh, what they've achieved is amazing. Fantastic. I recognize that sector is difficult. You have to be really difficult. I vowed I would never ever run a pub, pub, restaurant, hotel, and ended up doing it. Um, but doing it in the right way with business partners that um got it into as the the best pub in Yorkshire in the Mitchelling guide, uh, just come out, uh, it was in the Sunday Times list of the top 100 best pub restaurant hotels, uh, not just in the UK but the winner in the north of England, and we have sales of, in some months, over £200,000 a month. When I uh when I first took it over, it was turning over £20,000 a month. Wow. And the hardest bit—I'm a fundamentally I'm a marketeer—and we do no marketing. Yeah. And it's all word of mouth and it's driven by amazing food, uh, fantastic service, and the fact that we still have a a traditional village uh bar where the farmers and the locals come come in with their dogs and wellies. Amazing.
Richard, if people want to find out about you on social media, business leader, your new book, where do they go?
Yeah, to go to um uh businessleader.com and um just have a look at um the benefits of becoming a business leader member. Um, my book, How to Make a Billion in Nine Steps, comes out on July the 10th. Um, it'd be great if you could um go online to Amazon and pre-order a copy of the book. So you um you get it and read it first for you and um hopefully you will get uh lots of learnings coming out of that. Um, or go to my website richardharpin.com, uh, lots of examples of other books that I've read and learned from and some of my tips and advice. Okay. Right. Quick fire. You got to answer these quickly because we're coming to the end now.
Do you spend more time in marketing roles or operation roles?
Marketing.
Okay. To grow your business. Would you prefer to take on investment or bank debt?
A mix of both.
That's not the game. It's uh would you prefer to build a business in the USA or Europe? Not the UK. So, we're talking mainland Europe or mainland business. You've established in the UK. You got a choice to go Europe.
Definitely. Definitely USA because that was my uh teenage dream and I did it with Homeserve. I want to help more businesses to um uh achieve conquering America, but you got to do it in the right way. Many British businesses fail over there, but it's a massive opportunity. Fine. Okay, this is a really important one because lots of people are looking over to the UAE or Asia as opportunities to grow business. We are doing that right now. We've done very well in Asia and we're going into the UAE. So, would you prefer to build a business in the UAE or Asia?
Asia. Um, Homeserve has a very successful joint venture with Mitsubishi, the largest company in Japan. Yeah. And um it's working. It's going really really well. And uh Japan is a um a bigger country than any of the um the ones in the UAE. Yep. So, it's for you it's about chimney pots. Amount of population makes things. Okay.
And this one, this is very controversial. Well, it's not very controversial. Work from home or remote work. Sorry, remote working or all together in the office. So, office work or work from home.
All together in the office. But I think there's a still a role for a little bit of homework. Um, I think there are some businesses where um uh remote working as a permanent thing is right because they've got talent around the world and therefore can't get into the office.
Richard Harbin, this has been an amazing conversation. Thank you for joining me.
Thank you. Thank you James.