Transcription
[Music] Hi everybody, I'm Nicolola Tangen, the CEO of the Norwegian Sovereign Wealth Fund, and today we are in really, really good company. We are in Singapore. We're talking to Forest Lee, the founder and the CEO of Sea, which is the largest tech company in Southeast Asia. Uh, a market leader in video game distribution, and in fintech, and in e-commerce. An incredible journey, and a big thank you for taking the time.
Welcome to Singapore, Nicola. Thank you for visiting us.
Thank you. I also should say that in the fund, we are a big shareholder in Sea, and uh, uh, so we follow it very, very closely. But first of all, for those in, um, uh, in Europe and the US who don't know Sea, what, uh, what do you do?
Yeah, Sea is a Singaporean technology company, and with the mission to better the lives of consumers and small businesses through technology. So, we are a technology company by heart, and, uh, it has been 16 years when we started the company, and, uh, we primarily, uh, focus on the Southeast Asia market, uh, as the first market, and later on, we also entered into some new markets like, uh, Taiwan, like, like, uh, Brazil. Uh, actually, interestingly, uh, the name, uh, of the, we chosen the name Sea as our company name, is actually a short form of Southeast Asia. This is a kind of a, a shout out of our, of our home market. We feel very proud of that. And, uh, and today, we primarily operate three businesses. Uh, video game business named Garena, and, uh, and an e-commerce business named Shopee, and more recently, the fintech business named, uh, named SeaMoney. And, uh, uh, for Garena, uh, it started as a just a game distributor in Southeast Asia, but later on, we evolved to become a one of the largest mobile game developer and publisher in the world.
And a self-developed game from Garena named Free Fire.
And, uh, you have something like 100 million people playing this every day, right?
Yeah, Free Fire today is the, the largest mobile game in the world by daily active users, as you mentioned, more than 100 million people, uh, play the game from over 130 countries every on a daily basis.
Do you play it?
Yeah, I play a lot.
Well, I'm, I'm, I'm very pleased you're taking a break from, uh, from playing to, to talk to us.
Yeah.
Um, but how, uh, to go from like a video game distributor to become, you know, a more than hundred billion dollar, uh, market cap company? Just how did it, how did it go about? How was, how, what happened?
Yeah, it is, it is an amazing journey. And although we started as a video game company, but our ambition, our mission is always like, is, is more than that, right? And as we, as we deeply in our heart, we believe in technology. And I think it's, there's a lot of other, uh, things like, uh, uh, uh, in addition to to games, and can be, can be done through the, through technology. And, uh, I still remember about 10 years ago, when we received our, uh, series B funding, we are like, uh, we achieve, uh, we, we reached a billion dollar valuation. So we officially become a unicorn. I think, if I remember correctly, we're probably the first unicorn from, uh, from tech, technology unicorn from Southeast Asia. And 10 years later today, as you mentioned, it's a hundred billion dollar market cap public company. And it's over the 10 years, is we achieved like a 100 times of, of the value. The biggest contributor for that, actually, is we ride a wave of the mobile internet revolution. And 10 years ago, is just the very, very beginning of the, of the, of the all the smartphones, and all the, all the like the applications on the smartphones. Before that, and there's the internet, there's a, there's a PC game, actually, we started as a PC game publisher, and there's a e-commerce, but the addressable market is much, much smaller because you need to have a desktop to access the internet, and you need broadband. And broadband penetration in a lot of our market is still relatively low. But things completely changed when you have the, when you have the phone, right? And you, like, people can access the, the internet and do all the things anywhere, anytime.
But you were, but I mean, you were a video game distributor. How did you come up with the idea of, uh, going into e-commerce? Just, what was the thinking behind that?
Yeah, it's a down to the, like, what is the fundamental value and the technology can bring. And, and I, I remember, um, interestingly, actually 10 years ago, and I, I sometimes I brought my family to China for holidays. And, uh, at that time, I, I have a six-year-old daughter. It's a, like, a, Yeah. So, uh, to, we are very, very impressed by how much, like, e-commerce has developed, especially like the mobile, the mobile e-commerce developed in in China. So on our trip, and, uh, uh, sometimes my, my daughter want this, want that, like, no matter what she wanted, and it's just a few kind of taps and, and the swaps on her mom's phone, and the, the box just delivered to the door next day. And, uh, and whatever she want, she want it will be in the, in the box. To her, this is a, this is a magic. And, uh, and I, I give a lot of thoughts about it. Like, when we came back to Singapore, and I think this is just a great business, and it's a, it's a creates so much value, and creates so much joy and convenience to, to consumers. And, and it's hard for me to swallow the fact such business, such thing doesn't exist in, in Southeast Asia.
But, but how do you, um, uh, so how do you go from having the idea to actually executing this? Because now you have, what, what market share in Southeast Asia? You have close to half the market, or?
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. So you go from nothing to half the market in Southeast Asia. You, you beat, uh, Alibaba, TikTok, and so on. Um, how do you go about it?
There's a lot of factors. And, but the thing is, like, what we really, really focus on is coming out the local solutions. Because of, uh, we are, we, before that, we are a video game company, right? And we are a game company. And we, we have a pretty much have a zero e-commerce experience. And, uh, and we never done e-commerce in other markets, right? And so when we try to, uh, address this, this, like, looking at this business opportunity, we really go to down to the fundamentals. And we don't have a ready-to-go playbook from other markets. I say, what is really matters in, in any every specific market? What is the best solution for that?
Um, for example, I think a key differentiator for us over the years is the logistics capability we have a, we have a built. And, uh, we are the only e-commerce player today, uh, have a built up a lot of, uh, uh, capability in terms of the logistics. And it's a, it's a very, very important. And because of number one, this is a key thing for the customer experience, right? It doesn't matter how good things you, you buy, how cheap you buy. People really care where I can have it, can I have it on time? And, and can I have it in the good condition of the, of the parcel? So this is a very, very important. But it's a very, very hard problem to solve. And Southeast Asia is a very vast geography with a very complicated situation and the roads, right? And the, and the, you know, a lot of places, there's a not complete address system. There's a no kind of like a, like a postcode database, right? And you, you always see that the customer just describe the address, the, the delivery, uh, like, uh, point is, okay, you, you drive into the village, and you keep driving, you see a mosque, and turn right, and then after two big trees, you see a red house on the left. That is, that is an address. Yeah. So definitely you cannot find such a place on, on Google Maps. And, uh, over the time, we have to build up our own address book with address system based on all this, uh, all this information. And that is become very, very, very, very important.
How much money have you spent building the infrastructure on the logistic side?
Well, um, well, it's, it's, it's a sizable investment. But we have been very, very, uh, very, very, uh, smart and very, very cautious in terms of the capital things. And most of our facilities is a, is on the lease basis. We don't really purchase land, we don't really purchase a building. But I think it's a, it's a, it's a less about the money, it's about the effort, and it's about the determination. Um, we are, we are not a logistics company, right? And, and we don't have the in-house logistics team have been very, very good experience. Really focus on things. But we have a lot of a very, very smart talent, right? And, is it, do you really want your best talent to work on those challenges? Like, most of the people, they say they probably don't want to work on those things. But if you want to build up a successful e-commerce business, this is the things you have to work on. That's why we assign our best talent, and the smartest ones, right? And to, to focus on those issues. And they put a lot of effort to figure out every single point A to point B for the route, and what is the best way, what is the optimized way for delivery, which is the cheapest cost, and with the shortest time. So, and this is a very, very much a, and, and bottom-up effort.
What are the key factors, uh, that you have to, what are kind of the key boxes you have to tick in order to beat these competitors? You know, what are the other things, besides logistics, that you think are important?
Many, many things. And, but I think what really, uh, matters to us is a, it's a, it's a very long-term horizon. I think like we believe in this business, and, uh, we, we do this business. I mean, we see Southeast Asia is our home market. And, uh, we foresee ourselves will be an e-commerce supplier here forever. So whatever we build is a very, very, very long-term focus. And, uh, uh, we care not much about the competitors. I mean, over the time, we have gone through several rounds of competitions. And competitors sometimes come and go. And they come by waves, and they also leave by waves. But we are the one always stay here. This is our home ground. So, and we have been very, very focused on to build up the customer satisfaction. I think we're very obsessed with, with our customers, right? Is it on every day, on a daily basis? And our NPS score is getting better. Is the customer just more happier? Is happier to buy things on Shopee? Are they buying more? Are they buying more frequently? And, and they give us more trust. So I think that is really kind of the, the, the, the advantage, and we want to, we want to build and to make a sustainable success here.
So, what are the numbers you look at on a daily basis from, from this part of the business?
Wow. Uh, there, there's a, there's a quite a lot. And it starts with the, the daily, the orders, the, the GMV, and the active user numbers on our app, right? And the, the purchase frequency. And for every delivery, is like the, we don't look at every single delivery, but we look at, and, and cohort basis, is what is the average delivery time? And is this meet our expectation? Is getting better than the, and the last, last week? And what is the customer service satisfaction, satisfaction rate, right? And how, how soon we resolve the customer complaints, the issues. So all those small things. And it's not for us, we also track all the merchants, right? And, you know, we have a, we have a chatbot, like for the customer service. It's not only for us, between us and the, the customers. It's also between every single merchant and the customers. We want to make sure all the merchants on Shopee platform also provide a very good customer service. We also check them, we rate them in terms of how quickly they respond to a customer inquiry. So this is, and, and we have certain incentives to encourage them to do to do it, to do it better.
What are, what do you think is going to be the future development in this business? What are the, what are the next developments?
I think like fundamentally, uh, the core of the e-commerce is like, how do you make sure it's number one, is it's a more affordable and more accessible to more people, to have more people to enjoy the benefit of the e-commerce. And, uh, this is related to a lot of work in the, in the supply chain, uh, like optimizations. At this moment, if we are not just matching, uh, whatever the, the, the merchandise with the customers, we also put a lot of effort to work with a lot of, uh, upstream, uh, suppliers, and how to make their product more, uh, attractive, more, more competitive. Like, we provide a lot of them the, the market information, what really customers want, and to help them to do better businesses. And, uh, and, uh, and again, so delivery is a big thing. It's a, it's a very, very important part in the whole e-commerce experience. And there's still a lot of more we can do. And you can be always be make it cheaper and faster. So we're going to keep doing on that. And, uh, and, uh, we also noticed there's a certain, like, a new trend, right? And, and about, about the industry. And more recently, the, the live streaming. So that is a new way of, uh, selling things and the engagement, uh, with the, with the, with the, with the buyers. And, uh, and, and also that's could be just a way to do e-commerce, to do e-commerce customer service. You can just sitting there, do the live streaming to answer questions, whatever, whatever questions you have on the, on the product. So we embrace that format. We want to make sure whoever want to selling through live streaming, it can also sell on, on Shopee. So, um, the, the industry will continually evolve. But I'll say this will be just gradually, and the fundamental things will not change, just make things cheaper and, and faster to customers. And, uh, and, uh, for whatever you can do. Yeah.
And so, what part of the technology are you working on just now to develop further?
Well, um, there, there's many, many things. But if you have to call out, uh, a very, very specific ones, like, actually, we are very, very excited to see how, how much AI can help to, to improve the businesses. And we have already seen some, uh, very visible progress. For example, considering the, the transaction volume we are dealing with on the daily basis, it's such a big business. It's like we handle like millions of customer inquiries on the daily basis, every behind. And every purchase, there's a lot of, uh, inquiries. The customer always want to know like, uh, is it something really good to buy? What is the color? Do you have? I already made a purchase, and when can I receive it? Where's my parcel? Yeah. If I don't like it, what can I do? Right. And there's what else do you sell? So, and now, like 80% of such inquiries is handled by AI chatbot.
Oh, wow.
And the satisfaction rate is very, very high. And we do the AB test for some, we ask the chatbot, like, enabled by AI, to, to, to, to do the, to do the customer service. Some is by human being. And we compare the satisfaction rate, and actually, it's, it's on par.
Wow.
Yeah. So it's a, and now, even we use, uh, AI tools to train our customer service representatives. Even like, we use a AI tool, a kind of a AI like a customer service trainer to train the, the, train customer service human representatives. So it's a.
That's, that's, yeah, that's a very interesting.
What about the, uh, the gaming business? What is the latest developments there?
The latest development, and, uh, actually, to us, is a, Free Fire is already like a very, very successful, very, very successful game. And, uh, and increasingly, and, and, and we, we notice it's a, and, and the game is, is beyond the game, actually. It's a, it's a really become a platform. If you think about Free Fire as an app on your phone, right? It's, it's a mobile game. It's a huge aggregator of a, of a, of a traffic. And increasingly, we see when you have that traffic, whatever the new game content, the new gameplay, you can just keep adding into this platform, enter into this game. So it's a, the game is really become not just a product, a finished product, become a service. It become an evergreen, uh, platform. I think this is a, this is a very, very powerful. And now, uh, we even can identify a lot of social trends on the, on the, in the game. Like, people really talk about what is the hot topic in the, in their community, in their society, right? And, uh, and actually last year, and there is a very famous, uh, uh, like, there's a, like a hippo become very, very famous in Thailand, and suddenly become a global phenomenon. Like everybody say, oh, this baby hippo is so cute, and it's so adorable. And within two weeks, two weeks, and we build this hippo into the game. It's a, become an in-game character. And there's a lot of in-game kind of a custom, like a pet related to this hippo. And it's, it's really, really loved by the, by the gamers. The Thai gamers feel very, very proud to say, oh, this is a local, there's a game, so local, they care what we, we care here. And globally, everybody say, oh, this is so cute. People want to go to Thailand to, to, to see it. It's a, so, it's a, beyond the game. And we see a lot of social media posts about the, the in-game character of this hippo, also make the Free Fire like a more famous and beyond the gamer audience. I think this, this is some new trend we have been observing. And I'm a big believer. I think like the game is increasingly become the primary entertainment and social tools for the younger generation.
What are some of the other developments that you think we could be seeing here going forward?
Uh, well, again, so I have to mention AI again. This is the, this is the thing that really, uh, will be the game changer. And, uh, uh, we have already seen that, and, uh, and it's very obvious on the production side, right? And for any game, you know, you need to generate a lot of, keep generating new content. It's generate a lot of code, and generate a lot of, uh, art, right? And previously, a lot of things has been done, like for the very, very basic ones, we have to outsource for third-party, like, uh, studios. Like, I'm talking about the art. And they, they came up, we give them the concept, they came up some very basic drawings, and then our in-house senior designer just look at one by one and pick the good ones and give the final touch before go to production. And now, entire this process is a, is a very much done by AI. And it's like, our, our designer just tell the AI tools, okay, generate things for me. I want this, and imagine this word, imagine this character, tell me. And suddenly, a lot of it could be generated. I mean, there are, they're not that consistent yet, the quality, and, uh, there could be errors here and there. But, uh, it's a, it's a, it's a good starting point. And again, so our, our in-house senior designer will just pick the ones that is really good and just do the final touch and supervise the entire process. So that's save a lot of, uh, time. I think that's will largely increase the, uh, productivity on the, on the, on the creativity side. But, uh, I actually more important, and it's a more exciting part, is on the gaming experience part. I think it's still at very, very early stage. Um, but I very see the result. I can give you, uh, example, the certain things we're, we're trying. So, for example, like a Free Fire is really a, a team game. So it's, it's a kind of like a, it's the biggest fun is coming from you go together, play the game with other people, you form a team, and together, and come out a different strategy, different gameplay. People play different roles, try to win as a team together. But we have a lot of very shy gamers. They just don't want to reach out to other gamers. And they, they log into the game, they just play solo. And they always play solo. I think it's great to play solo, has a great experience. But we feel it's, it's something missing. It's a waste, because actually would much much more enjoyable if you play as a team game. So what we're doing now is like, before we try to match them up with the team up with them with some bots, right? And, but the bots is very, very predictable. It's very, very stupid in a, in a way. After a while, you know, this is a bot is not fun. It's not fun to really play together. And, but because of the, the, the new technology, the AI, actually the bots become much much smarter. And they can not only play the game with you, give you the guidance, what you do in the game, they also can chat with you, can make a joke with you. It's a really kind of become a very much a similar, a human experience. It's, it's so real that it's a, for a lot of the cases, you can cannot really hard to tell the difference.
How many people do you have in game development?
Um, we have about 2,000. 2,000 people developing games. Yeah.
Wow. What is a good game?
What is a good game?
Well, and it's a fun game to play. And it's a, it's a, it's a fun to play within the first hour. And it's a, it's still fun to play after 100 hours. And, uh, it's a, it's easy to start. It's like, we want to build up the game. Uh, it's accessible to everyone. We want everybody become a gamer and enjoying the gameplay.
But you need, you need a, you need a practice, and you need a lot of effort to become an expert. Yeah.
So I think that is the key element in my view of a good game.
Now, the last, the third area you have is, um, is fintech. What are you, tell us, what are you doing there?
Oh, this is an amazing, and this is a very, very exciting business. And we have a, we think we have a, we have a full potential there. And, uh, we, we, I mean, we start this business, uh, actually by resolving a lot of, uh, issues we have, the challenges we have for our video game business, and for our e-commerce businesses, right? And, uh, and in the early days, like, uh, even we publish the games, and we have the best games from all over the world. But because of the people no credit card, for the gamers, they have no way to pay us. We have to build up a, a cash card, like a gift card network ourselves as a game company. It's a build up. It's a payment network. And I remember the days I drive my car with all the bags of a credit card to go around 7-Eleven to distribute and to count how many cards I have in the, in in the stock, and how much money I, I, I receive. And, uh, and, uh, and, and, and later on, and for e-commerce online transaction, is a become a big challenge as well, right? And, uh, and there's so many transactions, and how you want to make sure the transaction is all smooth in such a large scale, and, uh, and in a very, very safe way. So that's the, all the challenges we, we started with. So thus, we build up a lot of solutions, the products under the SeaMoney, or fintech business umbrella to solve these issues. But actually, we see a increasingly, we see a very, very big opportunity. Is a, is because of our e-commerce businesses, we realize, and, and when people want to buy things, and they really don't have much access to the consumption credit. Such a issue has been largely resolved in most of the market, western market, by credit card. But as you know, the credit card penetration is relatively low in most of the market we operated in. So people just do not have access to credit. And that's why we introduced the, like, through our, uh, Shopee purchase, and we introduced this, uh, it's a credit line for them. Like, they can just buy things now, but pay it later. In some other western markets, this is just, just a supplementary to the credit card. But here, because it's become a major main solution. So, uh, even like within a very short period of time, SeaMoney already is already the largest, largest digital lender for the, for the, for the consumer consumption, like digital, like in, in Southeast Asia. And it's, we already have over $7 billion loan book, and it's growing very, very rapidly.
So, in a way, these businesses fit together, and there is a logical connection between them.
Yeah.
What would be the next logical extension of your business mix?
Well, uh, there is a lot of things, and we can, and we can, we can think about it. And at this moment, and, uh, uh, we, we haven't really, we don't rush into say, okay, this is will be a, a new business we're going to enter into. I think there's a still so much we can do. And, uh, and, uh, in, in the three verticals we have, and this is indeed a very, very, three very, very big verticals, and three very, very big applications at at the moment.
You mentioned AI several times. Could we see you going into a more pure play AI?
It could be. It could be. And, uh, and at this moment, and, and as I mentioned, we, we, we have put a lot of effort on the each business lines, and for the, for the, for the specific applications. But on the company level, and the, and we have a lot of new initiatives as well. We look at the entire organization, how the organization is structured, is organized. Is it like a very much an AI-centric organization? And I think that will be the future. And also, we encourage a lot of bottom-up initiatives. And back to 10 years ago, when we just, uh, get into the, the mobile internet revolution. And I remember we, we in-house developed a lot of pilots, and all the different types of apps, right? And they called all the different names, and try to, uh, try to become, become a big business. And eventually, Shopee actually one of the, it's a project number six, become a very, very big mobile e-commerce business. And, uh, and today, again, so we have a several, like agent platforms. And, uh, so we provide the tools in-house. We allow, we encourage everybody in the company, uh, with or without coding experience, to build up the agent for their specific need. So I do believe like whatever, uh, the new business opportunity we may capture, you, you have to start with solving a very, very specific problem. And now, we, we provide the tools, and we start with some in-house problems. And hopefully, if something really become valuable, and can, can be applied not only in-house, but for the more, like a broader customer base, and we should launch it as a, as a standalone business. That will be the new, new business enabled by by AI.
Which companies in the world do you admire the most?
Well, um, there's a, there's a lot of great companies. And, uh, I think it's, it's hard for me to pick any specific one. And, but there's so many, uh, great things, and we can, we can learn the, the, but, uh, I, I do admire, uh, in our industry. So Amazon. I think it's a, they have, they have the best. They, they're the pioneer, not only the pioneer of the, of the e-commerce, and also there's also doing, doing great and a lot of things we, we have to learn from them. Very, very obsession with the customers, and always focus on lower, low price for the customers, deliver the value to the customers. Then really, really focus on logistics network, which we also believe that is a key part of the e-commerce businesses. And what we want to, uh, learn from them, and also follow their path, is like, uh, they, they, kind of like incubate their cloud business, and some additional, a lot of new businesses through their original e-commerce businesses. Hope we can follow that path as well, to continually, uh, grow.
What would it take for you to be a trillion dollar company?
Well, I think it will be AI. Yeah. And, uh, and, uh, again, so mobile internet, we ride, we ride the wave of the mobile internet revolution, and make us a hundred billion. It's a hundred billion dollar company. And it's hard for us to imagine, uh, without the mobile internet revolution, if we are just a PC game, like a distributor. I think doesn't matter how good we are, there'll be no way for us to, to be where we are today. And, and I think it's a trillion dollar, trillion dollar business is always an aspiration. And, but increasingly, I see the path there. I think it's the answer will be, will be AI. And, and the AI just will be just a lot of value creation. And, and make people's, the technology will make people's life very, very different today, and in a very, very better ways. I think this will be bring a lot of convenience and joy to the, to the, to the, to the customers. And large, large value will be created. A big pie will be created. And hope we just do our best to capture part of it. And, and, and a trillion dollar is, is very achievable.
Given the markets you're in, the, the share price can be very volatile. And, you know, the share price was up, I know, five times, and it's down 70%, and now it's back up sharply. Does that, uh, impact the way you think?
Well, uh, I, I think it's a, it's a good journey for us. I mean, appreciate we have gone through that. And, and we are really, uh, proud, and we have survived all those ups and downs.
And, uh, um, well, I, I would say there's a, there's not much impact. And a lot of time, the share price just reflects the external perception of the, of the market, of the business, of the, of the company. But I think like, uh, I, as we stay true to our with our belief, which we believe in technology. I think technology will keep advancing. And the technology, uh, across the entire history in the past, and also probably in the future, just continually getting better and, and change people's life in a better way, create a lot of value. And, uh, and, uh, and that is a, that is a very, very kind of like a, like convincing. And, uh, and we, we deeply believe in that. On top of that, I think there is a huge market, right? And, uh, and today, uh, there's a lot of, still there's a lot of part of the world, people not really fully, uh, enjoy the, the benefit a technology can bring to them. Is because of probably the infrastructure, because of the, there's a no very much local solution for them, and there's a no right application. I think that is a part, probably, uh, we can pick, continually play a bigger role. And we start that role from Southeast Asian market, our home market. And then, and in the past five years, we also kind of bring our best practice to Brazil. And Brazil become a very, very sizable market for us. And there's a lot of other places for us to continue to do that.
Moving on to, uh, to corporate culture. What, um, how would you define the corporate culture in Sea?
We have, uh, five core values. When, when you walk into the office, you may see the value wall. So we have that, we have that wall, like, in every single office. We want to make sure it's very, very visible. It's a reminder to all the employees on the daily basis.
It's the five things is, uh, we serve. We always want to make sure, uh, customer come first. Whatever, like, uh, we do is, is a, we need, we have the customer service mentality. And we run, we highly value execution. Speed matters. And if we get things done today, we're not going to wait till tomorrow. And if we can run, we will not walk. So, and we adapt. And we know we are in a very, very dynamic environment. And it's highly competitive. And the technology change so fast. As you just, uh, mentioned, the share price can go five times and go, go, go, can go down like 70, 80, 90 percent. So it's a very, very, uh, changing environment. So we need to make sure we can always adapt. And, uh, we commit. So the, like, whatever you want to achieve, right? Is it doesn't matter, it's a hundred billion dollar market cap or trillion billion dollar, whatever things you do, and you want to be committed. That is the only way you can achieve excellence. And actually, the last one is, uh, we stay humble. And, uh, and I believe this is the foundation of our core values, the culture. And if, if you have to pick one word to describe our corporate culture, and that will be, uh, humility. I think it's a, it's a guide us in the, in the, in the, in the good times.
Why is it important to be humble?
Well, I mean, I think it's a, interesting. And that is a, is even before I started the company, and, uh, and, uh, I was a Stanford student. And I was fortunate enough to sit in the audience when Steve Jobs gave this very famous, uh, uh, commencement speech, "Stay foolish, and stay hungry." And he shared three amazing personal stories. But my takeaway from that story, all this speech, actually, is a, is advice to the young fresh graduate. And it's a, it's a calling for humility, right? Because you have to be, uh, humble and to stay, stay humble to, to stay foolish, right? And you have to acknowledge, okay, there's a, you are probably not the smartest ones, and there are a lot of things can be done better. You should keep learning. And, uh, and, and you have to be humble to, to stay hungry, right? And to try to achieve more. It's not enough. And there's more things we can do. And that's, it's a, keep, it's a very, very good reminder to me as a person. And also, it's a, how I want to, uh, how I want to run my company. So, and this is a, uh, it's very, very important. I think to keep, like, driving the, the company, keep, keep moving forward. And it's also so important in the, in the difficult time. As you mentioned, like, uh, uh, our, our share price hit historical high, uh, like, I think, like a few years ago, in the 2021, when in the midst of the COVID. And, uh, and the success comes so fast, and so sudden. And suddenly, the whole organization feels so good. And, uh, everybody feel, oh, we are amazing company. We are, we are, we are the best. We are the superman. See our share price, see our market cap. And, uh, I have a very, very unsettled feeling. I feel really, really worried at times. And, uh, um, I wrote a, a company-wide note to everybody. I say, okay, Yeah. So it's very important to remind ourselves, like, we need to stay humble. And, uh, and, uh, and whatever we achieved, or whatever how market see us, and is still like, where we are today, compared to our ambition, we are still young. We're still very, very small. And we shouldn't feel too good, too proud of our.
But where does your, but where does your personal humbleness come from?
I don't know. I think that's, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, just me. And, uh, I always see, uh, the greatness of other people. I always see people I enjoy working with the people, and, uh, has a higher ambition, and be smarter than me, could be more capable for me. And to me, I always feel like, okay, this is a lot of things, uh, I can, I can, I can, I can do better. Uh, I think it's a, come from the self-drive. Yeah.
And where does that come from?
Actually, I think it's a, it's a remind me a, a great movie called Forrest Gump. And, uh, and, uh, and, uh, you know, I picked the name Forrest because of that movie. I, I just love that character in the movie. And.
What is it? What is it? I love Forrest Gump, too. But what is it with Forrest that you like?
Uh, well, he's, uh, clearly, and, uh, he's not the smartest person in the, in the, in any, any room, right? In the classroom. And they are the most, he's not the most savvy. And I feel related to that. And along the journey, I always see there's a lot of people smarter than me, and more capable, more savvy than me, right? And, uh, and, uh, I think it's, maybe it's a naturally for me to identify the strengths of other people, and find a way to, to admire them, and to work with. Um, and, uh, uh, and, uh, and, but like, look at the, uh, what who, what Forrest Gump does, right? And he has a very kind heart. And in a very, very authentic way. And, uh, he just keep trying to be helping, and try to be loyal to the friends, to the, to the community, and try to help others. And even just a little small things, right? And doesn't matter his family, his friends, right? His, his co-workers, his wartime colleagues, right? And he's, he's a trying to, you know, help other people do good things in a very, very authentic way.
How many times have you seen the movie?
Well, probably at least 10 times over the years. Yes.
Do, do you think life is a box of chocolates?
Yeah, it is a box of chocolates. And, Yeah. It's a full of surprise. And it's a, and it's, it's a full of flavors. Yeah. I mean, the, the things like, I think the aspiration I draw is not only, uh, because of Forrest Gump, what he has done. And actually, in a way, is such a big impact he make to the community, even in the movies, in the, changed the course of the American history. And, but he also lead a very, very lived in a very, very rich life, and very, very successful life, both like financially, and also like a socially. He's very, very successful. I think, I mean, in a way, probably I, I see him as my role model. And, and he's a very humble person to start with. That's maybe the where I draw the, uh, aspiration from. Yeah.
Well, he bought some shares in the fruit company, for instance.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I love this. This is fantastic. Um, but how do you, but how do you, how do you balance humility with confidence, you know, and ambition?
Um, humility, I think it's a, I don't see is the opposite to confidence. And, uh, I'm a, I feel I'm a very humble person. And, uh, Sea is a very, very humble organization. But at the same time, uh, we are also, uh, very, very confident. And, uh, uh, we know what we're doing. And there's always a things, and we can do, we what we can do better. And, uh, but we also feel very proud for the things we are doing now, and how good we can be, and, uh, how much, how much we have achieved. And, uh, in a way, um, I think, um, humility works perfectly with, uh, ambition. Because it's a, you can say, it's like a, yeah, it's a, it's a big achievement to be the largest, most valuable company in Southeast Asia. It's like a hundred billion dollar. That is a big achievement. But if I go to Silicon Valley, there's a many trillion dollar companies. And if your ambition is one of the days be be become one of them, and to be in their league, and today we are still very, very early. And that is a way, uh, to keep us feel very, very humble. And we are still very early, and we are still very small.
What, what is your leadership philosophy? How do you lead the company?
Uh, I would say three things. And I really value, doesn't matter when we were just a 10 people startup, or like today, we have like a 50,000 employees, very large organization. First is, I do feel leadership should be, uh, it's, it's all about not about yourself. It's about as a leader, how do you lift up others? How to make other people being successful? I think that is a very, very important. And this is start when we're a 10 people company. It's like, uh, I keep thinking, even as a leader, how I make sure these are 10 people will be successful together with me. Because a lot of them take the risk, they quit their job, they can have a very, very paid job, they have a bright future, but they decide to, to give up all other things and jump into, jump into this startup with me together. And how to make sure they can realize their full potential, they can live their full life by working together with me. And it's today is a, like, that is what really kind of like, I, I push myself every day. How to make sure all the 50,000 employees in the company, and they can realize their full potential, they are doing what they really enjoying doing, and they can, like, fully realize their strengths, right? And, and I deeply believe if every single of them, uh, being successful, find their success in the company, and this will be a very, very successful company. So it's like, every time I talk to my employees, it's always the first question in my mind is, how can I make you better? And how can I support you as your, as your CEO? So this is the first thing. And the second thing is, like, I believe, uh, leader is a, should be show up in the difficult time, and should be pick always the most difficult decisions to make, and take the most difficult actions. Uh, we all know sometimes, uh, easy decision, a easy action, doesn't mean it's the right one, right? And actually, a lot of time, it's, uh, is the other way. And, uh, uh, as a leader, you need to take that, uh, ultimate responsibility and accountability. And you cannot always just try to be do the good things, the pleasant things, and the popular things. You should delegate that to the, to your, to your other team members. Let them do the pleasant things, let them do the, the popular things. And you should be count yourself do the difficult things. M.
So during the COVID time, and as you mentioned, our share price dropped a lot, and it's a very, very difficult time. And we have to quickly change the course of the, our, like, direction. And we have to operate company with the, from the capital abundance mentality to the capital scarcity kind of a situation. And we have to achieve self-sufficiency, uh, much much quicker, right? And then, so we have to make a tough decisions. We have to, uh, exit markets, we have to close down some new businesses. We have to let go great people. And even for the people, uh, stay with us. I remember there's a one year, a year end, we decide to freeze the salary. We decide to not giving out bonus. And we cut a lot of a benefit. And, uh, and I voluntarily to stand up and to sign the company-wide note to inform everybody these decisions. I want them to hear from me. And I explain to them why this is my decision. It's not an HR decision, not anybody else in the organization's decisions, my decisions. And why I have to make these decisions. And, uh, and, uh, I also show.
Uh, I understand this means a lot of difficulty for our employees, but we need to gone through this together, and I seek for their understanding and and support. Things like the difficult time, the leader should stand up. And the, the, the third thing is about trust. I think among all the leadership qualities, uh, build up the trust is a very, very important. And, and people choose to follow you not because of how smart you are or like how great idea you have. It's a, it's simply because of people trust you.
And a lot of time, this trust need to be, uh, mutual and have and and need to be earned. And I'm the person really, uh, enjoying personal relationships. And I, I enjoying time where much smaller companies. I feel very proud. I know everybody's name. I know their birthday. I know how many kids they have. Not anymore. Not anymore. Yeah, not anymore. And, uh, and, uh, and, and, uh, and that's why I think that's have to change how I, how I built up the trust. And now I have to change in a much larger scale way. So I, I, I do, uh, rely on the companywide note and I take every opportunity to send companywide email.
How often do you do that?
Well, um, very, very regularly. Uh, I do, uh, there's a, uh, I do our, our company birthday, and, uh, I do our IPO anniversary. I do the year-end Christmas holiday, and, uh, every quarter, we will do earnings, and I want to make sure our guys, everybody in the company hear about company results and performance first from me, instead of from, uh, media, like from anybody else. So, and, uh, occasionally, like when there's a specific things, like I want to talk about it, and, uh, and I also do that. And when I travel, uh, I want to make sure I regularly, I have a, I have the roster. I want to make sure I cover all our local offices, and I, I, I travel to meet them when I'm in the local office. Usually, I do the town hall, probably with hundreds of employees, and, uh, they can ask whatever the questions they ask, and they can ask real-time, live, and, uh, no kind of, no, no forbidden questions. And they can ask, uh, anything. And in front of them, I will see the questions and I will answer them one by one, and I'm not going to skip any questions. I think that is a way to, to, to build up the trust.
Now, you also, um, well known for building great teams, and you hire people sometimes straight from university, and they stay with you, right? What do you think is the key to achieving that?
Um, we have a, have a very, very early days, and, uh, we have this in-house management associate program, and, uh, uh, we brought in the young talents, and, uh, and we grew them with them, give them the opportunity, and, and we, we develop them. And a lot of them, a lot of grad, graduate from this program today, already after 10 years, already play a very, very critical role in the, in the company, and, uh, and, uh, we benefit a lot from, uh, from such things. That's why, and we keep this best of practice. We keep these traditions every year. Uh, the leadership team, not only myself, the entire leadership team, we spend a lot of time for this, uh, campus recruiting, and we make want to make sure we bring in the, the, the very bright young talent, and we rotate them, and we give, put them on two-year training program, and we spend a lot of the time mentoring them and coaching them, and, uh, hopefully, they will find what they really enjoy, and what they really love in the company, and that they can stay, stay long with the company, and, uh, eventually become a very, very key contributor to the, to our future growth. We do believe in the young people. And, uh, I think it's a starting with, uh, our early days when we started the video game e-commerce business here. Um, the industry didn't really exist. There's a, no, no talent pool for us to directly hire with experience. So we do kind of have to build up everything from the ground zero. The only things we can do just bring in the very capable, fast learning young people, and just train them and grow them, and grow, and, and grow them together, grow with them together, and develop them. So, and the internal, the, the, the in-house talent development, and build up in talent pipeline, and is a, I would say, it's very, very important to us, and become our key capability.
Um, how much do you work?
Every day, all the time, wherever I'm, I'm awake, I'm, I'm working. Yeah.
When do you wake up?
Um, 6:00 or 7:00. Yeah.
And, and then you go to bed?
11:00, 12:00. I try to sleep 7, 8 hours a day. Yeah.
And do you, how do you relax?
Uh, spend a lot of time with, uh, with, with my kids. And I mean, they're still young, and I really, I get a lot of advice from, from my friends. Okay. When they were young, try to spend as much as them, uh, you can. And you will miss that time when they, when they grow up, and they, when they leave the family. So I cherish every moment I, I spend the time with them at home, or travel together with them. And sometimes I learn a lot from them. I think it's like, probably because they are the younger generation customers, and, uh, I get a lot of insight from them as well, for games, for e-commerce. Yeah.
You become immensely wealthy. How do you, what do you enjoy doing with your money?
Not much. I, I think like, uh, for me, it's a, just me. I think there's not much change actually. I eat less compared to 10 years ago, and I, I, I eat, eat much simpler. Uh, um, I, I didn't change much in, in terms of what I, what I dress, and, uh, I, I enjoy dress the, the shirts, the pants with the company logo. Most of the time, they're free. So, well, uh, I, uh, I haven't really thought about, thought about. I think it's like a, probably it's, it's not really about how to spend money. It's like a, uh, what is a really luxury I have with that money? I can, I have the freedom to really focus on what I enjoy enjoying doing. I probably don't need to, uh, just, uh, do the work, do anything, just for make a living, for meet the ends at the, at the end of the months. I think that is probably a biggest luxury I have with all this money. I can really focus on, uh, my passion, and, and my, my ambitions, and then to me, at this moment, is very, very clear. So I, I want to continually build C to a, to a greater company.
Finally, what is your, what is your advice to young people?
Actually, I, I, uh, we, we talk about a little bit about that, and, uh, again, so I, I want to mention it's a, as it's a movie, it's a first camp, right? And, uh, it's indeed, I think it's a, uh, that's probably the, I, I watched the movie when I was young, I was in college, and it's such a lasting impact on me. It's a, we, we are all ordinary people, right? And, uh, we are, we, it's hard for us to identify ourselves being the smartest, and the, and the most savvy people in the boom. And we always ask ourselves like, then my M really matters, and what can I do to make the, can I really make the impact? I think what I learned from that movie is by just, uh, doesn't matter who you are, like what you do, where you are, just by giving a little bit effort, doing the good things to people around you, could be your family, could be your community, could be your, your, your friends, and, uh, and, uh, and, uh, and you, you can live a very, very successful life. And, and sometimes it's a, you never know it's coming, what coming out of from this ripple effect, and sometimes can end up in a, in a, in a, in a big, big impact, right, to the, to the society. I think it's like, we all have a very short period of the time for, we only have this one life. I just encourage all the young people's to rather than only just, uh, uh, put a lot of time to think about yourself, and also think about people around you, and, uh, and, uh, and think simply, think about how to can, what you can do to, to make their life a little bit. And end up, I feel you could be, by doing that, you could be the biggest beneerary, benefit, most benefit from it.
Well, it's a beautiful place to end. Uh, big thank you. Incredibly impressive, and wow, what an interview. Big thank you.
Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you for having me.
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