Transcription
If God doesn't exist, nothing is good or evil. Things just are. Everything's just a matter of opinion. But we know things are evil. We know murdering people is evil. We know raping people is evil.
JK Rowling admitted that she basically took the story line for Harry Potter out of the Bible. Yep. She did. That's the story line. And in Deuteronomy 19, if you falsely accuse someone of saying murder, you would be the one executed. Man, if we had those laws in place today, the entire internet would shut down.
Maybe our culture is so upside down because Christians can't defend our beliefs. American Christianity has been so watered down to to to feelings that people don't even know why they believe what they believe. How do we successfully defend the Bible in our modern culture? How do you convince people that the life and resurrection of Jesus is historically accurate?
My brother and friend Frank Turk, brilliant apologist, author, and founder of Crossexamined, joins me today to discuss how we should be reading the Old Testament and the incredible prophetic connections between the books of the Bible and the interesting aspect of serpents throughout history, even in things like Harry Potter. That's uh that's spiritual. There's no one better than FGTK to talk about and how to defend and prove the gospel.
Guys, check out Gruberware at segruber.com for your controversial pro-life merch. Give us a rating and review. We really appreciate it. And join us at the White Rose Resistance at the whiterose.life. Let's get into it. I'm Seth Gruber and this is the Seth Gruber Show.
Frank, welcome back to the show, brother. It's always great being with you, Seth. How are things going?
Good, man. I think it's been since uh man we were at that Allen Jackson conference together I think was the last time I had you. Anyways, but uh a lot's happened and uh um I just so appreciate you, brother. Um your friendship uh the way that the Lord's using you in the culture and in the church and on college campuses right now, which I call the shadowlands of our culture, kind of like the Lion King. Um and so anyways, it's it's been a while.
Well, you're you're a recognized face particularly after recent events which uh we we we don't need to get into unless you'd like to. Um but um I wanted to kind of just equip our listeners today, Frank. Um because there is such a renewed spiritual buzzing energy in the culture right now. And obviously people started listening to to this show, Frank, and our ministry because of pro-life. But over the years, we've expanded it because you can't understand abortion without understanding sexual revolution. And you can't understand sexual revolution without understanding cultural Marxism. And you can't understand cultural Marxism without understanding cultural demons. And really, we're just talking about spiritual warfare. um in an age where evangelical Christians almost tend to live like functional atheists um and don't actually contend against demonic principalities that often manifest in the cultural and political realm. And you're one of the few guys I feel like who didn't learn that in 2020. You've known that for a long time. Um and you just do such a masterful job bringing together the logic, the worldview, the history, the apologetics for the church. And so, um, I thought we just set you up to just slay demons today and demolish strongholds that set themselves up against the knowledge of God. And so maybe for our younger listeners too or families, Frank, um like let's just let's just equip them to be total Jesus ninjas, what are the best arguments in your book against maybe let's do the reliability of scripture and the the truth of Christianity. Like give us the best arguments against our faith and then how we deal with those.
Well, quite frequently there aren't really good arguments against our faith. I mean, the two biggest arguments that people will give are the existence of evil. You know, how could there be a good God if there's so much evil? And the second is, you know, why isn't God more overt? Why is God hidden?
To the first argument about evil. Evil does not disprove God. Evil may prove there's a devil out there because there'd be no such thing as evil unless there was good. And there'd be no such thing as good unless God existed in an objective way. Because what because what we mean by good is God's nature. If God doesn't exist, nothing is good or evil. Things just are. Everything's just a matter of opinion. But we know things are evil. We know murdering people is evil. We know raping people is evil. We know these things are evil because they take away a good thing, which is a human being. They degrade a human being. And what evil is is it degrades what is good. And what is good is say human beings. God. They're made in the image of God. If there is no God, we're we're just really no different than overgrown roaches because we're all going to wind up in the same place anyway. If there's no God, we're just going to wind up in the dirt. What does it ultimately matter if you live as a missionary or live as a murderer? Ultimately, it doesn't because we all wind up in the same place and there's no inherent value to life. So, evil is not an argument against God. It actually turns out to be a backhanded argument for God because if evil exists that means God exists or good exists and if good exists God exists.
With regard to the hiddenness of God issue. Uh CS Lewis pointed out quite a while ago that if God got too overt all the time, he would to a certain extent take away our free will. This is why he says in the Screw Tape letters, God cannot ravish. He can only woo. Sure, he appears to some people, a very small number of people to tell the rest of humanity who God really is, but for the rest of us, uh, he provides evidence of his existence, but not overwhelming evidence that if we want to go our own way, we can't do it. If we want to go our own way, we can. So, there's evidence for God that I think is persuasive, but it's not compelling. You can still go your own way if you want. Those are the two biggest arguments that people bring up against God and against Christianity. I mean, we could talk about scripture if you want as well, but I see those as the two big ones that I deal with quite a bit on college campuses.
Um, well, that was a master class, everyone. Frank did that in about three minutes or two and a half minutes. Um, I see a lot of your clips on college campuses, brother, specifically on the reliability of scripture. I've seen you handle this beautifully. I I I think that's really significant and important because I even will run into believers sometimes who struggle with some of that. Like they've had a a regeneration. They they they they believe that Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. But like, oh, but that that's separate than how the Bible came together. Is every book trustworthy? How do we know? Like there even some Christians, well, some they're not people of good faith, but even I've met some Christians of good faith, Frank. I'm sure you have too who struggle with some of the arguments against the reliability of scripture. I would love for you to kind of walk us through kind of a master class on that because I I I I think not enough believers are able to kind of respond to that and make a defense of that.
Well, the shortest answer that I can give as to why scripture is reliable is because Jesus thought it was. And then people will go, "Well, how do you know Jesus thought it was? You're relying on scripture." Well, the shortest answer I can give is that historians know that when they evalu evaluate a a given text, they don't assume, like for example, when it comes to the New Testament documents that these are religious writings or that they're in Aaron or any of that. They just want to see if they are demonstrating a general historical reliability. And there are a number of tests that historians can put on any text, not just the Bible. Like for example, were these documents early? Do they contain eyewitness testimony that can be verified? Do they contain embarrassing stories that the that the authors wouldn't have invented? Did these people uh really believe this? And in the case of Christianity, we find out they do because they they basically get kicked out of the synagogue and beaten, tortured, and killed for saying this was true.
So, let's just take those four criteria. Were these documents written early? Yes, they're written during the time of the eyewitnesses within the living memory of uh the events themselves. Were they put down by eyewitnesses? Yes. There in our book, I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. Hundreds of details that show that these people were in first century Israel at the time they wrote this or they knew people who were. Are there embarrassing details in there they wouldn't have invented? Of course there are. They would never call uh the leader. Jesus would never call Peter their leader Satan. Jesus would never say uh or let me say Peter would never say, "I'd never deny you." And then he denies him three times. The disciples, if they were making this up, wouldn't all run away for fear of the Jews and have the women be the first witnesses. they wouldn't have their hero crucified as a common criminal and be scourged because that was not only embarrassing uh to uh be crucified and have your leader be crucified but to be hung on a tree was completely against what the Jews would have believed to be their Messiah because anyone anyone who's hung on a tree according to Deuteronomy 21 uh is actually under God's curse and of course he was under God's curse the curse of sin we put him under but if you were making this up. You would never say that. You would never say that Jesus was called a madman or a drunkard or demonpossessed. You would never say that there were two prostitutes in Jesus's bloodline. You would never make any of this stuff up.
So, it was written down early by eyewitnesses. It's got embarrassing details in it. And then they die excruciating deaths for saying this was true. We need to keep in mind, Seth, that the people who wrote down the New Testament were not Christians initially. They were all Jews. Why are Jews claiming a man claimed to be God and rose from the dead when they didn't think that was possible? Claiming to be God was blasphemy. And they didn't think one guy would rise from the dead in the middle of time. They knew we'd all rise from the dead at the end of time because that's what Daniel said and Isaiah hints at, but they didn't think one guy would claim to be God and rise from the dead. And here's what they wind up doing. They wind up claiming a man claimed to be God and rose from the dead. And then they suffer excommunication, beatings, torture, and death for this. They're not inventing this.
So, those are four out of actually 10 reasons we have and I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. If you want to go further as to why we think the New Testament documents are reliable and if they're reliable and Jesus actually did rise from the dead and is God, whatever he teaches is true. He taught the entire Old Testament was the word of God and he promised the New Testament. So, on Jesus's authority, I think the Bible's inherent.
Wow, Frank. Powerful. Thank you, brother. Um, we're going to get into so much more and u maybe even some some unexpected uh gospel um retellings by pagans who can't help but tell the gospel because the Bible says eternity is written on the heart of man. Um, but guys, if you are not following Frank Turk and his ministry on college campuses, go do so right now. But first, we'd like to thank our friends at Every Life Diaper Company. uh our our our longest sponsor of this show. And why? Because you guys keep shifting your dollars to pro-life diaper companies. Thank you. That's how we fight. It's the simplest way. If you're a Christian who doesn't like what's happening in our country or in the West, the first most simplest thing you can do a after praying is to shop in alignment with your values. Patriots and Christians and conservatives have to send a message to woke corporate America that we don't like them and we're not going to fund them. It's just so simple. And by the way, if you're going to a church like that has a nursery, go tell them, "We're a pro-life church. We shouldn't be buying diapers from proabortion diaper companies." Why? Because almost every diaper company supports abortion. Not at Every Life. Everylife.com. Use promo code seth10. Diapers, wipes, baby shampoos, lotions, I think a new femare line they've done as well. All subscription. You can get it delivered to the house. It's so simple. And by the way, they're Christians. They love Jesus and they love America. I know the founders. everylife.com promo code seth10 for 10% off your first order.
Uh Frank, amazing brother. Thank you guys. If you have not uh bought I Don't Have Enough Faith to be an atheist, uh we recommend it to you. Also, Frank's other book uh correct not politically correct is absolutely beautiful, too. And maybe I can even get Frank to tease um his next book, which I know he's been working on. Uh but uh brother kind of continuing down just these just these reasons to trust the scriptures. Reason to trust the reliability of scripture. You you deal with so many of these in in your books and in your lectures on college campuses, but I've always been blown away even as someone raised in the church, right? And then and then you decide, no, I'm going to follow Jesus not because my parents did, but because I did. And and as you're doing your own research and study, just the amount of prophecies, uh it's I mean, it's insane. Talk to us about that because that to me as a nerdy homeschool kid that's one of the most like jaw-dropping like wait what how many of these were fulfilled and how many hundreds or thousands of years between them. Talk to us about that.
Well, I actually don't want to overstate the case. In the book I don't have enough faith to be an atheist. We look at maybe a dozen or maybe even fewer than that. Maybe like 10 prophecies that say that first of all Jesus is going to be born of the seed of a woman. Normally you're born of the seed of a man, right? Uh secondly, he's also going to come from the line of Judah. Uh remember there are 12 sons and Judah is one of the 12. So it's going to come from the line of Judah. He is also going to be born in Bethlehem. That's Micah 5:2. Uh he is going to be actually called God. That's Isaiah 9:6. uh he's going to have to come before 70 AD because according to Malachi 3 that uh the the actually the Italian prophet Malachi excuse me uh yeah the Italian prophet uh Malachi Malachi says that uh he the Lord you seek will suddenly come to the temple well the temple was destroyed in 70 AD so this lord must come sometime before 70 AD Daniel 9 if you do the math on Daniel 9 the Messiah is going to be cut off in 33 AD. And this is written, Daniel is written in the 500s BC. Even if the liberals are right, it was written in the say 100s BC. That's still a couple hundred years in advance. Right. Right. Uh so you get Daniel 9 that the Messiah is going to be cut off. If you do all the math, it turns out to 33 AD. Uh you get, of course, Isaiah talking about he is going to be a suffering servant. He is going to bear the iniquities of us all. And he actually see the light of light. That appears to be an a a reference to the resurrection. Uh this is all in Isaiah chapter 53. And by the way, we know Isaiah is written prior to Jesus because it's part of the uh greatest discovery of all time, the Dead Sea Scrolls. The greatest scroll ever discovered was the 24 foot Isaiah scroll, the complete scroll, including all of Isaiah 53. And that particular scroll is dated to the 100s BC. So again, it's like 200 years, 150, 200 years prior to Jesus. It contains all of Isaiah 53, including the whole book of Isaiah. Actually, when you add all this up, you get a guy born of a seed of a woman from the tribe of Judah uh to uh in Bethlehem. And he comes to the temple prior to 70 AD. He's going to be called God. He's a suffering servant that's going to bear the iniquities of us all. And it looks like he might even rise from the dead. There's only one guy in history that fits all that. It's Jesus of Nazareth. There you go.
That's awesome. Uh Frank, um because I'm not a uh ancient biblical text scholar. Um I I actually don't know or forgot the answer to this question. Um do you know uh what's when scholars believe that Genesis was written or dated?
Well, Genesis according to the conservative view as well as the other four books of the penetuk were written not completely but mostly by Moses. So if that's the case he's writing about 1400 BC in that in that time frame because the Exodus occurs in 446 1446 BC. The conquest of Jericho then would be 1406 BC. This is all biblical dating which I think has been largely confirmed through archaeology. Uh so you're talking the 1400s BC. You have the penetuk being written while the while the Israelites are wandering through the desert because you know uh no I mean Moses doesn't actually get into the land. He dies there at Mount Nemo Nebo and is buried in Mount Nebo which is present day Jordan. He can see the land but he doesn't go into it. So it had to be prior to 1406 BC the first five books of the of the New Testament sorry the Old Testament. Now those of course were added to or uh the account of Moses's death is added to maybe by Joshua maybe by somebody else later but generally uh conservatives and I think there's good evidence that Moses wrote most of the first five books.
Um I want to ask you about my favorite prophecy in the Old Testament. Frank, that just blows my mind. Um and I like to use the very long complicated word for it just to confuse believers before I tell them what it is. But of course, we're talking about the proto evangelum.
Absolutely epic, guys. Watch this clip of Senator Josh Holly calling out Netflix. This This was so epic for pushing the trans weird sex agenda in so many of their shows. If you turn on Netflix, you'll find that an enormous amount, and I say this as a parent with three young children, an enormous amount of your children's programming has this ideology and agenda in it. Why is this, Senator Ali? Netflix has no political agenda of any kind. I would tell you that Well, then why is your children's program so full of this highly sexualized, highly controversial agenda? I don't I don't I don't understand it. It seems strange to me. Um respectfully, sir, it's because it's inaccurate. We have millions of hours of children's programming. I get You're saying it's not there. You You don't You don't have trans You don't feature trans characters, trans story lines, trans themes. It's not in your programming. I'm saying we feature a wide variety of stories and programs.
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So Frank, that would be Genesis 3:15, right? Yes. Yes. Genesis 3:15 for uh uh he will strike your heel, but you will crush his head. And the whole scene there is about the serpent. Mhm.
Um, and I just like when I I mean, you know what's actually pathetic? Maybe we could talk about this later, is how lame Christian youth group disciplehip was in the early 2000s. Like I was not taught the glories of the biblical narrative and the eternal war that you see throughout the scriptures. Like I'm like I'm like why did I have to learn that later? Like you know anyways that that's pathetic our how how much I think Christian youth groups by and large um failed my generation. But like this is glorious. This is the first prophecy of the savior, you know, what something 1500 years before Christ would come. And then you continue to see that kind of dragon serpent language used to refer to say. Anyway, talk to us about that because that's just incredible to me.
Yeah, that's the first prophecy in the Bible as you said, Genesis 3:15. It basically says the offspring of Eve will crush the offspring of Satan. But right, the offspring of Satan will strike the heel of the offspring of Eve. And this starts the rescue operation after Adam and Eve sin. Now, let's just fast forward to one event. There are several events in the Old Testament that are like this, but probably the most famous event is David versus Goliath. Okay, if you read the story of David versus Goliath, a Goliath comes out taunting the Israelites and the God of the Jews, Yahweh, and he's wearing serpentine armor. This is what the text shows. Serpentine. Think of a chain mail kind of thing. And what does David do? David shows up with just a sling. He He buries a rock in this guy's head, kills him, and then cuts his head off. Where does he bring his head to? He brings his head to the city of Jerusalem. Now, in David's day, when he's a shepherd boy and he slays Goliath, who is the Satan figure, he's in serpentine armor, and then he cuts his head off and brings him to Jerusalem. Jerusalem is not the capital. Jerusalem is is a city that the Je the Jebusites have. And it's not until 8 years after David becomes king, does he go to Jerusalem and takes the city for himself. That's recorded in 2 Samuel 5, I believe. Remember, he has to send the general up the water shaft and he he takes takes the city over. So, you're asking yourself a question. David is just a boy when he slays Goliath, the Satan figure, and then he takes his head to Jerusalem, which doesn't have any special significance at that point. Why does he do that? Because a thousand years later, his offspring, Jesus, will crush ultimately the head of Satan in that very city by taking the taking the sins of the world upon himself on the cross. And Satan will strike his heel. A reference probably to the nail going through the heelbone of Jesus. Wow. But taking Jesus out actually is the defeat of Satan, not the victory of Satan. Yeah. So you see this serpent um serpent problem or serpent enemy come up over and over again in the scriptures. And it's a class.
Do you know how many do you know how many times the the kind of the serpent language? I don't know. I'd have to go back. We're going through a series right now called the Bible you never knew. And maybe an easy way of pointing this out is when you're reading the Old Testament now in light of what we know about the New Testament, we got to go to Luke chapter 24 because Jesus on the road to Emmas with those two disciples who don't know what he is. He unlocks the Old Testament and he says the entire Old Testament is about me. So now when we go back and we read the Old Testament, we start seeing Jesus in the Old Testament where we might not have seen him going forward. We now see him looking backward. And so the Satan figure being Goliath and the Jesus or God figure being David now makes more sense looking back in retrospect, right? And there are so many types in the Old Testament. Um in fact, we've got a real interesting one in Joseph. Joseph is sold into slavery by his brothers. By the way, who's he sold into slavery by? Judah, the fourth son. And he's sold for 20 shekels of silver. Jesus in the New Testament is betrayed by Judas for 40 for 30 shekels of silver. Inflation, right? And but there's an interesting connection between Judah and Judas, which we'll get to right after this break.
That's awesome, Frank. Um, and we're going to continue this serpent conversation and take it maybe an interesting way in the second part of this show, guys. Guys, the last stand tickets, last stand tickets are going fast. Absolutely incredible. Denver, Colorado. Watch this epic video. I believe there are certain moments in our history where it is our moment, where it is time for us to rise. Civilizations are not guaranteed to last. And neither does this one. And I just can't stop thinking about this with America's 250th year. How you live in this moment matters a lot more than in other moments in history. Why are some pastors always punching to the right and allowing things on the left to go unchallenged? Don't you love your neighbor enough to contend at a schoolboard meeting? Where's a church? America is a Christian nation. America makes no sense without Christianity. What made the ideas of our nation different and unique? It came from the Bible. We are here to ignite a revolution of courage. We are here to reignite a revolution of faith. And we are here to reignite a revolution of Christianity. How incredible to be alive during America's 250th. And what better way to celebrate it than to help reclaim Christrysendom and rebuild the family by coming to the last stand festival, which means worship, repentance, like-minded fellowship with families and warriors. June 5th and 6th at Brave Church in Denver, Colorado. We have an incredible speaker lineup this year. Alli Bestucky, Dr. Frank Turk, Steve Dace, Victor Marks, Andrew Cedra, uh Abby Johnson, and more. It's a two-day festival that will end with the world premiere of mine and Dr. George Grant's new film, The Last Stand. So, come hear the best speakers in the movement, worship alongside thousands of like-minded individuals and families, and watch The Last Stand film. It's going to be incredible weekend. And and what a great we got to take back June, right? June is life month, not gay sex month. Get your tickets now at the lastand.com, the lastand.com, and use code seth my name for 20% off your ticket. I will see you in Colorado on June 5th and 6th.
Uh Frank, I I love that, dude. Um, yeah, I guess I guess that they voted for too many Democrats. That's why I guess that's why you had 30 shekels of silver with Judas. Um, c continue this conversation uh that this Bible you never knew journey you're taking us on. Uh because it I for me, even as someone raised in the church, it just brings such new light and wonder to the scriptures. Um, which yeah, our faith is wondrous and and we need to see the wonder in the Bible. So continue. That's what it says in Luke 24. When Jesus told them about him being in the Old Testament, it made their hearts burn. When you start seeing Jesus in the Old Testament, it makes your heart burn in in a good way. Like, wow, I never saw this before, right? Yeah. Not heartburn, but yeah. Burning heart.
So, going back to what we were saying that Joseph in the Old Testament is sold into slavery by Judah for 20 shekels. Jesus in the New Testament is sold to the basically the authorities for 30 shekels of silver and Judas does that. But do you know how the how the Septuagent which is the Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament translates Judah? It translates it as Judas. Whoa. So Judas is the one that betrays Joseph. Judas, another Judas, is also the one that betrays Jesus. Now, of course, Joseph's falsely accused. Who else is falsely accused? Jesus. Joseph is in prison and he's got two thieves next to him. Two prisoners. One is a cup bearer and the other is the baker. What does that make you think of? Jesus has two thieves next to him on the cross. And one of Jesus's thieves next to him is saved and the other isn't. G Joseph's situation's the same way. One of those two guys gets out of prison. He's saved. The other is impaled on a pole. Oh, and by the way, by the way, the baker and the the uh cup bearer, that's the bread and the wine. Yeah. I was I was going to say that if you didn't Yeah. Yeah. It's right there in Joseph's life. Right. Then Joseph is exalted. Jesus is exalted. Joseph's exalted to the point where he can save the very brothers that sold them into slavery by giving them a place to live. Jesus is going to go ahead and make a place for us to live. Right? All these parallels come out. You could say the same thing with with Isaac. Isaac Abraham tells tells take your only son up to Mount Mariah. That's like 80 miles from where he was. I Abraham would have been like, "What about this hill right here? I got to go 80 miles. What?" No, you need to go to Mariah. Take him up the hill and sacrifice him. And by the way, Isaac, you need to carry your own wood up the hill. Yep, that's right. What does that make you think of? Jesus carrying his own cross up to the same hill, Mount Mariah. And then, of course, when Abraham gets up there, God says, "Don't hurt the boy. There's a ram in the thicket. You can substitute that ram for your son. Jesus is our substitute. Instead of us being killed on Mount Mariah, Jesus is killed on Mount Mariah. Yep. And so you see these parallels in the Old Testament to Jesus and you go, "Oh, wow. I get it now."
Oh, yeah. Wait, Frank, hold on. That's right. I read this somewhere once. Can you tell me if this is correct? I read in my own research, but you're the you're the one to ask here, that people believe, significant researchers believe. Um that Mount Mariah is Golgtha. It is. Yeah, that's absolutely right. It's the same place. Wow. It's the same place. So, what does Mariah mean? Oh, gee, that's a good question. I don't know off the top of my head. Look it up while we're talking. I'll uh I'll keep talking about this, but that's why this is a picture, a foreshadowing of what would happen to Jesus because 2,000 years later, Jesus was brought up the same hill, but God did not say stop the sacrifice. He went through with the sacrifice on our behalf. What are you coming up with Mariah there? Yeah, in the Old Testament, Mariah generally means chosen by Yahweh. Well, that site was chosen by Yahweh. Yep. No question about it. Oh, man. That's so powerful, dude. That's amazing.
There's a whole bunch of types. Jonah's a type. Daniel's a type. Moses is a type. Adam's a type. Yeah. Isaac's a type. Joseph's a type. I mean, they go on and on and on. They have they have events that occur in their lives that foreshadow the coming of Jesus. That's why Jesus could say, "Hey, the whole Old Testament's about me." Right. Right.
I was um Frank, I I want to ask you this, too, because you're not just like an apologist or thinker. You know, you're a storyteller. Um and you know, you have that little bit of a Tolken Chesterton Tonian aspect to you that a lot did that a lot of Just It's okay. just take the compliment that a lot of uh apologists and academics don't. And so I was studying this for my book which you were so kind to uh endorse The Last Stand, Chrysler Chaos, The War for the West, and the film by the same name coming out this June. Everyone, Frank Turk is speaking at The Last Stand on the Friday evening kickoff on June 5th in Denver. Or is it June? Wait, June 5th? I got my dates mixed up. Uh get your tickets now at the last.com. But I was I was studying this how the temptations of Jesus by Satan in Matthew I I don't know why I never saw this before. Again, back back to Christian youth group sucking in the early 2000s. Uh uh 100% parallel the temptations to Adam and Eve by the same serpent, which we're later told in First John is how the worldly system operates. um the the pride of life, the um lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh, the pride of life. Yes. Power basically. And you're like, "Oh my goodness." Like those temptations that Satan gives to Christ are the same that Satan gives to Adam and Eve. For she saw that it was good for food. She saw that it was a delight to the eyes and and the desire to make one wise. Right? And that's exactly what First John tells us. It's the same temptations of Christ. Here's bread, right? Good for food. Delight to the eyes. Look at the look at all the uh the kingdoms of the world and their glory. A and then and then and then the pride of life. Throw yourself off this thing, right? Just the the the the insistence on spectacle and and and just look at me. And and that was another powerful moment for me realizing the beauty and the wonder of salvation history because Satan could only offer those things because Adam had forfeited them. Yeah. He for the better the second Adam, right? And he forfeit for forfeited it too by taking some enticing fruit. And what does the scripture say about Mary? that the fruit of her womb will save the world essentially. So, you've got fruit that was taken ill illicitly in the Garden of Eden and God is the fruit that's going to take away that sin that we first that we first committed in the Garden of Eden. Yeah, that's beautiful.
Um, so, Frank, um I've I've noticed something about um worldly systems. So everything that sets itself up against the knowledge of God and and I do I do want to return to the serpent thing a little bit, but I thought I'd wind you up on sort of the what what's the phrase? Stealing from God. Like there there's this interesting aspect uh common denominator of paganism. Um where they have to how do we say it right? They have to assume the reliability of reason. Yep. um at least while they're arguing for their position like like all non-Christian philosophies um have to exclude themselves from their own categories. They do. I think this is fascinating. Could you talk about that?
Yeah, that's a book I wrote about 10 years ago called Stealing from God. Why atheists need God to make their case. And I have an acronym crime. C R I M. Each one of these aspects of reality, atheists have to steal from God in order to make their case. So the C stands for causality or creation. The R stands for reason. Like there can't be reason if we're just molecules in motion, you know? We're not reasoning, we're reacting. The I stands for information and intentionality. Like there's information in a cell, DNA, right? Where does that come from? If we're just molecules in motion, uh the M stands for morality. Uh you know, they're they're claiming certain things are right and certain things are wrong. But if there is no God, everything's a matter of opinion. Nothing's ultimately right or wrong. It's just your opinion. Uh the E stands ironically for evil. They'll claim there's too much evil in the world. We already covered that earlier in the program here, there wouldn't be evil unless there was good and there wouldn't be good unless there's God. And the S in crime stands for science. Atheists try and think that science is their friend. When in reality, science would be impossible if atheism were true. If we're just molecular machines and the world was a chaotic mess, you couldn't do science. You couldn't know science. In fact, you wouldn't exist. I wouldn't exist. So science actually needs a being like God to create the universe, the natural laws that govern it and sustain those natural laws. If those natural laws are not sustained, we don't have reliable cause and effect. And we don't have minds that can ascertain that reliable cause and effect. So causality, reason, information, morality, evil, and science are things that often atheists will claim as their own when in fact they wouldn't even exist unless God existed.
Um, I love what C. Lewis said, Frank, unless I believe in God, I cannot believe in thought. So I can never use thought to disbelieve in God. That's one of the great he said he said reason. Yeah. Spilling your milk jug on the table and the way the milk lands, it's a map of London. It's like, okay, if you if you believe that that like is coincidence, um, you know, to use a politically incorrect word that's made popular again, that's to believe that. Um, but I'm fascinated again by this this like thread line throughout history of serpents and dragons. Maybe we'll take the show a really weird way now and I want to ask you more about that. So, um, Frank, first of all, I there I want to talk about something that I think is the most ah man, I mean, more more than Lord of the Rings, more than anything else I can think of of of a of an author, a storyteller, a creative accidentally telling the gospel using similar themes that we have been talking about, you and I, for the last 30 minutes that this whole like what could we call this whole show like um oops I proved God like I don't know like is kind of the common denominator we have going on here and and yes I am talking about Harry Potter but but why is it that this yes that's right but but like so and that gets into serpent stuff too but but even before that like and I know we're running short on time Frank we'll have to have you back on but like do are are dragons real like was did dragons exist at some time like or the dragon like what do you mean like well it's like you know you see this dragon language used throughout scripture and I to be perfectly honest with you I've wondered before what like was the Lord using human authors to borrow human fanciful creations to enforce a theological point or was he actually referring to something that people knew existed and I don't mean komodo dragons yeah
that's one of the things that CS Lewis and Tolken talked about a lot was the fact that um so many of these pagan stories had elements in them that pointed to the what what Tolken called the true myth meaning it's really true it's not a myth that Christianity is the true myth and so he uh Tolken kind of brought Lewis along to Christianity by saying yeah yeah all those pagan myths you like where they had dragons in it or whatever they're actually illustrating a truth that points to the true myth and the true myth is Christianity. And so when you bring up Harry Potter, my son my son and I wrote a book a few years ago called Hollywood Heroes: How Your Favorite Movies Reveal God. And we we point out that the top movie franchises of the past 50 years have all stolen from the greatest story ever told. So, for example, in this book, we cover uh Captain America, Iron Man, Harry Potter, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Batman, Wonder Woman, and then the ultimate hero is, of course, Jesus of Nazareth. They're all modeled after him. We also talk about Spider-Man and Superman and Thor and some other people in here, some other heroes in here. But let's just take Harry Potter for a second. JK Rowling admitted that she basically took the story line for Harry Potter out of the Bible. Yep, she did. That's the story line. Let's let's look about four characteristics of Harry Potter who is the savior of this wizardry world that she made up that parallel Jesus. Both Harry Potter and Jesus have prophecy that foretells their coming as the savior. Both of them have to live a moral life in order to achieve what they're trying to achieve, the salvation of their world. Both of them are going to be martyed and then both of them are going to resurrect from the dead and in order to win against the Satan figure Voldemort in this in this case serpentile once again. Yeah. In order to win the followers of Harry Potter have have to put their trust or faith in him. This is the Christian story. Yeah. It's wild. Both of them are prophesied. Both of them are moral. Both of them are martyed. Both of them rise from the dead. Hello.
Right. Well, Frank, dude, it gets it gets even deeper like with the time we have left. And I know you you're aware of all this. You wrote a book on it. It's in the book. I I I became fascinated about this years ago and I started defending it to um I I know the word fundamentalist has become a negative term. I understand that that's not its origins, but just just for lack of just so people know, we're talking fundamentalist homeschool Christian moms who fear the world. Okay. Okay. the people who know like, "Oh, if I let my kids read Harry Potter, you know, they're going to like start start Ouija boards." It's like, "Dude, you read them Narnia out loud where there's a white witch. What the heck is your problem?" But, um, but this is fascinating. JK Rowling once said in an interview, Frank, um, that she was afraid to ever comment on or highlight the centrality of these two Bible verses that she literally lifts, it's not like she's paraphrasing, she lifts them out of the Bible.
Can I read them? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Here they are. Um, this is on an inscription on the headstone of Lily and James Potter's grave. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death, right? And then, uh, that's of course 1 Corinthians 15. And the other is, but Christ has been indeed raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have been fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. The last enemy to destroy it is death. Yeah. Uh, and Oh, yeah. Oh, there there is another verse in there. Where your your treasure is, there you go. Where your treasure is, that's where your heart where your heart is, where your treasure is from the ser on the mount. Yeah. Those two. Yeah. Yeah.
And and the author, who's a feminist that actually stood up against the trans cult said years ago she didn't ever want to talk about the centrality of those verses. And here's what she said. She said she was afraid it would give away the ending. So, so Frank, like I mean, this is powerful. Here, here's JK Rrowling who's not a Christian. I think she's identified as a feminist before, shown incredible courage against the trans mob. Conversation for another time. Um, the only author to become a self-made billionaire by writing books. And she's like, yeah, I didn't want to highlight that that section that the last enemy to be defeated is death. Cuz I I was afraid it would give away the ending. They're like, "Wait a second. That's right. Death is defeated." And then and then and sorry, we'll say in the intro, we said in the intro, like spoiler alert, guys. you know, you know, if you haven't read the books yet, it's like and and the way that the Savior's going to die is he has to crush sin. He
has to endure death for the sake of this sin. And where is that sin? It lives in our own hearts. It's attached to us. Like what?
And some of this gets into the spoilers of the book, but I think that is the most overtly like Christian gospel theme in a fantasy book that I've ever read. And it's it's just profound when you think about our conversation this whole time.
>> This is the story everyone wants to tell.
>> Yes. And Jesus is the ultimate hero because Jesus sacrifices himself in order to defeat evil and save people from it. And that's what all the superheroes do, including Harry Potter, you know, technically not a superhero, but you get the idea, right?
>> Yeah.
>> Uh and and so all these other superheroes, Iron Man, Captain America, Batman, Lord of the Rings, people, you know, uh Tolken said the hero of uh of Lord of the Rings was Sam.
>> Yeah, right. That's right. Sam Sam is the one that sacrifices in order to make it happen.
>> And uh
>> there is just amazing.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> It's incred. So there's a reason spiritually. So we're talking there are spiritual realities. They actually exist. Eternity is written on the heart of man. And so there's a reason why this is the bestselling book franchise in my lifetime, in my parents' lifetime. There's a reason, guys. We want to retell this story of of the king,
>> the savior versus a serpent. That's right.
>> Which coincidentally is also how JK Rowling sets up the book. So, anyways, if there are moms and dads that don't want their kids to see it, okay, fine. I get it. But at least tell them the story line so when they talk to their friends, they can talk intelligently about
>> Yeah.
>> the whole story line. It's basically the Bible story line. If you like Harry Potter, the the character, you're going to love Jesus cuz Jesus is the perfect Harry Potter.
>> Yeah, that's right. That's right.
>> He's the one that saves the real world from all this.
>> That's right.
>> People are waking up, Frank, to this reality. It's a phrase I love that uh Cardinal Henry Edward Manning told a young 20-year-old Elair Bellac at the turn of the century, Chesterton's best friend. All human conflict is ultimately theological.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
Let me mention one thing too that I just want your audience to be aware of because a lot of people are getting sucked into these crazy conspiracy theories related to Charlie Kirk, our mutual friend.
>> Yeah.
>> Um I was even the subject of one of them because I was there when Charlie was killed. I mean, it's just it's ridiculous what's going on.
But notice that Jesus and the apostles call Satan a murderer, liar, accuser, and slanderer who wants to still kill. Steal, kill, steal. It's easy for me to say steal. kill and destroy. Notice we had a murder, Seth. What have we had since then? Lies, accusations, slander, seeking to steal, kill, and destroy.
Do you know the Old Testament says in in Exodus 22:22, this is the Old Testament economy, if you abused a widow or the fatherless, as what's going on right now with people like Candace Owens abusing Charlie, Charlie's widow Erica, and his f now fatherless children. If you did that, God said in Exodus 22:22, he would hunt you down and kill you with the sword. And in Deuteronomy 19, if you falsely accuse someone of, say, murder and you were found out, you would be the one executed. Man, if we had those laws in place today, the entire internet would shut down. This is obvious spiritual warfare. It's demonic, and Christians ought not be supporting it.
>> Yeah, it's all spiritual. Everything is theological.
Um, powerful today, Frank. Absolutely incredible. We can't wait to have you share at the last stand. We are in a season of the last stand. Um, the king is the king and he's on the throne. But, uh, that doesn't mean that Western civilization is guaranteed to survive. And for the sake of our children and grandchildren and the protection of babies and the glories of the West that I think are worth preserving, it's time to wake up the church before it's too late. You're going to love Frank's talk, guys. Go to the lastand.com. Uh, use promo code seth to get a little discount on your tickets. Go to crossexamine.org for all things Frank Turk, his tour, his resources, his online courses, and his store if you want to pick up any of the I think three different books we've mentioned that just Frank has written. cross-examine.org. Thank you so much, brother.
>> Thank you, brother. I'm looking forward to seeing you. The new book is coming out in September. It's called The War on Reality. Looking forward to that one, too. I'm excited.