Transcription
Sex Party with your host Dustin Rivka. Hello and welcome to Sex Party. I'm your host Dustin Ribca and on this week's episode, we are checking in with our upstairs neighbor, Canada. Not Santa Claus for those of us in the United States. Um, we are going to check in with our upstairs neighbor to compare, uh, sex work laws to see what things are like there, how they treat, um, the sex work community compared to how we do down here a little bit. It's more of a general conversation about sex work. I know it's different all across the globe. Um, we dabble a little bit, uh, and then the culture of sex work. My guest this week is Jaylene Cherie. She's a holistic sex educator and someone who has a ton of experience and knowledge on the topic of sex work. It's a great episode to sort of dip your toes in this topic. This could be a hot button issue. Listen, I, I get it, but that's what we do here on Sex Party. We tackle hot button issues, um, amongst all other sort of things. Uh, so without further ado, enjoy my conversation with Jaylene Cherry.
This week's conversation. Jaylene Sherry, welcome to Sex Party. How are you?
I'm good. About yourself? How's it going?
Uh, I'm stressed, but, um, you know, it took a while for us to get on on the podcast, but we're here. Yeah. Um, for the people who are listening or watching and they're like, what's wrong with Dustin? No. Um, could you talk a little bit about who you are and what you do?
Yeah, definitely. Um, so I am basically a holistic sex educator and coach. Um, when people ask me what a coach does, I kind of say it's kind of like a counselor, but more forward-thinking. Um, I provide a lot of free sex education on YouTube, Instagram, etc. So I've been doing that for about four years now.
Making that happen. Yeah. And like, your, your Instagram has like a really fun sort of, uh, energy and like, you handle the topics of, of like, I mean, many different things, but like kink and sex work and all the things that come with that, right? But you handle it like in your own sort of like fun, I don't want to like say bubbly, but like, you get it, right?
Yeah, for sure. Like, I would like to clarify that is probably part of what I'd like to put into it. I feel like sex is just such an awkward thing in the very beginning of it. And especially when we're dealing with, um, like you said, I mostly specialize in alternative sexualities, so like kink, BDSM, sex work, I like, like to talk a lot about. And so I think it's just a definitely, uh, a better way to just break open the ice because I feel like a lot of people have a big shroud of taboo around a lot of that stuff. So yeah, I mean, definitely.
Um, where do you think that everyone's getting all of this sort of, um, shrouded darkness around sexuality and sex?
I feel like when we grow up, it just kind of shows it, right? Like, I don't know about you, but it's all the things that like sex is so in your face, but the exact same time, when you are interested in exploring it or etcetera, like sex ed really did not want us to [ __ ] when we were teenagers. Like, wait, wait, wait. The brink of our sexual being, basically. Like, we're waking up, our hormones are there. Um, yeah, it's already kind of like gives us this idea of like, we have all this stuff, but no one's giving us any access to it. So of course, it's going to seem inaccessible for our own lives in particular.
I know some people who can't even talk about sex, you know, like it's hard for them to communicate that with other people, right?
Yeah. Um, and that's like, you know, I mean, we go into it on the show a lot, but you know, [ __ ] the patriarchy and yeah, all that stuff, you know. I'm like, it's just, it's all social conditioning in terms of like shrouding us into the certain corners that they think that society as a whole. We don't even know who the [ __ ] society is at this point. It's just kind of like embedded in this in our culture of what's expected of us, um, whether you are a certain gender, uh, whether you like a certain thing, et cetera.
Yeah, I mean, and one of those things, a big huge, um, topic within that sphere of of influence of sexuality is sex work, right? Uh, I mean, we, we've jumped into it once before on the show with a really amazing guest, um, and and I want to talk about it with you, sort of destigmatizing sex work because the, the part of it that kind of drives me nuts, right? Is you'll have really intelligent, well-lived, uh, women, right, who maybe are mothers, or maybe they're not, or whatever, but they're just sort of, um, in society and they'll talk [ __ ] about someone having an OnlyFans or someone taking money for it. I'm like, wait, do you really realize what you're saying? You know, it's like that dirty [ __ ] is a [ __ ] uh, OnlyFans and she's slutting around at maw. And it's like, wait a second, you just put down all sorts of people for doing something that people have been doing since before time was being recorded. It's one of the first jobs ever created was sex work, which I think is just fascinating.
Yeah. So, so, uh, my question to you is, um, why, you know, briefly, just to sort of, um, reiterate to set the stage a little bit, why is it so, um, grimy in people's minds? Why is it such a thing?
Yeah, I feel like we have, especially, I, I see it especially, um, it comes with certain genders and different genders. I feel like, you know, being a sex worker as a male-identified person, especially in like the gay culture, it's a lot more, um, it's just a little bit more accepted than, um, possibly some other genders. Like, in terms of female sexuality, I know that there's a lot of, uh, price put on our sexuality, but when it actually comes to the prospect of us capitalizing on our own personal sexualities, our individual selves, that's when it becomes a line. It comes like a strict no. And you kind of see it through a lot of pervasive throughout, uh, different, um, just like gender roles, etcetera. You know, we like have sex cells. You see so many posters, etcetera, with like, half-naked women. But yeah, it definitely comes to a point where we're at a stage where when we want to actually, you know, enjoy it for ourselves and our own selves, or, um, make our own money off it, then it comes to be, uh, almost like there's too much power being invested in what we can have as our own individual person.
So yeah. So to dumb that down, to dumb it down, right? Um, let's, let's dump it down. Sex sells. Like the society loves to sell the female body, but when it comes to the female self that has to do with her sexuality, then becomes a strict no. Like when Pepsi is like, hey, we want to show off your tits and like you bending over to sell our new like Pepsi [ __ ] multi-million zero or whatever, right? Or like, uh, Doritos at the Super Bowl ad with whoever, that's cool because that's that's great. Britney Spears can simulate a [ __ ] and to sell Pepsi and whatever. But the second you start an OnlyFans and use those same tits, that same energy, that same, uh, intelligence to make money for yourself, it's a big, you're a [ __ ]. Like, you just go like, hide yourself, you know? It's like that red A, you gotta like brandish on yourself.
Yeah. So, so what is that, a representation of? Is that that, um, the powers that be, um, that all these like elder white males are are, um, scared?
I would say that. I would also say it's like, like I can, I, I would like to more blame the patriarchy as a whole. I feel like every individual learns something from the patriarchy. Every individual has its own barriers to it, whether you're identified as a man, a woman, etc. Um, in terms of, you know, people policing one another, I think it is a, we, we learn it. Even as femmes, I would just, I would say I read this really good book about [ __ ] shaming and it was talking about how, you know, us femmes, um, our femininity is supposed to be attracted, like we're supposed to hold it, our sexuality very close and deeper ourselves and, you know, it's very inward. And so when you see someone putting anything outward, it's kind of almost a threat to your own identity as a femme itself. And it's almost like that's not what it's kind of like that tri-mentality, right? Like that's not what we're learned to like grow up in, um, and be. And like, it's really hard sometimes to break out of that, your own shame cycle of your own sexuality. So when you see other people brandishing it, even being proud of it, like heck, like I, I love my sexuality. I definitely flourish it whenever I want to. Um, and I definitely can see some people when they, when their reaction to me and seeing that and witnessing that, it's almost like they are coming from this place of shame. Like they are hidden their sexuality in the box so far down, they're like looking at this and it's like almost like a circus show because they're like, what the [ __ ]? Like, I never even knew that you could like bring out all the elephants and the clowns and like all the crazy [ __ ] [ __ ] that sex can be with you know.
Yeah, I mean, um, I think a lot of people are confused as to how sex work even operates, right? So basically, like, let's say I'm looking for a sex worker, okay? Or you're looking for a sex worker. Where do you, where, where would we even go to look? Is there certain websites?
Hey, that's my first question because I think that'll help it. Um, I know there's, well, it's different because are you in? I'm in Canada, so I have, okay. There's different web app sites. Yeah. Well, we're gonna, we'll, we'll get to that, but, you know, I'm in Chicago. So Chicago. Okay. So Tryst, which is really great for independent providers. So there's no ad agency, no agencies that you're working with. So, you know, the provider who you're working with is working for their own individual cells, which really, which I really like, um, that aspect. And I also kind of feel like, uh, the, the site itself is really great for, um, supporting sex workers. So I always just really like that one website because it helps support the community at the same time. Uh, another thing that you can see is Twitter. Twitter is a really huge one for people to go on and kind of like search for, uh, full service providers, dominatrixes, etc. Easy little hashtags. Instagram, you can kind of probably find someone, but you would never actually really know because it's just so censored that you would have a really hard time if you're just trying to like look for one. But I would say Twitter or Tryst for North America.
Okay. Yeah. And so what are the differences then with that being said, right? Twitter and Tryst and, um, and and maybe Instagram? Like, what are the differences in the in the law, right? First, between Canada and America with sex work? Is, is sex work legal in Canada? Is it just as illegal as it is here?
Well, also you guys have so many different states, so it is kind of hard to overall. It's illegal for you guys to sell or purchase sex in any sort of format. You guys passed a law in 2014. In Canada, they passed a new law and it was basically based on the Nordic model, which means that they're helping against human trafficking. So basically, you are allowed to sell sex, but you are not allowed to purchase it. So the person, I.E., the John or whoever the client, I like to call them the client, when they are, you know, purchasing it, they're the ones who would actually get in trouble. The provider. So it gives the space a provider to go to the police without or the law without even having any repercussions on themselves. The problem with that though, is because no third-party advertiser is actually allowed to, um, sell your services. So actually, like that's why a lot of websites don't support sex workers and like having on websites and communicating with clients, which is really actually more dangerous for us Canadian sex workers in the very end of it all because if you're doing in-person work and you can't negotiate beforehand, limits safety precautions, screening, because a lot of clients don't want to do screening because they don't want their info on the internet. It's like a whole, it's a whole backlash conundrum. So right now, currently, they're revising the 2014, uh, legal apps. So we're really hoping that some changes will happen to the Nordic model up here. But yeah.
Yeah, I mean, huge difference in in, uh, the law, right? But still, it's still a mess. Um, yeah. So, so you and I are separately on Twitter looking for a sex worker, right? And I find someone that I like and I'm like, hmm. But then I'm like, how do I know this is a real thing, right? And and you find someone or whatever, same thing. So we both have this problem. So, A, how can people who are looking for sex work workers, um, to provide a service for them, how can they, how can they trust that it's not gonna be like, you know, some six-foot-eight guy with a [ __ ] rifle and a, right, in a garbage can and an alleyway? Like, right? Or or worse, right? That's, yeah, yeah.
Um, there's many different formats. Yeah, yeah. Because on the flip side, I'm going to ask you right after that is how can the provider, you know, feel safe with with figuring out that, oh, this person right is looking, it's not a [ __ ] six-foot-eight guy in a garbage can with a rifle in an alleyway? Yeah, yeah.
Definitely. Um, a lot of providers, uh, well, first off, for knowing that they're not scammers, etcetera, generally they have a website. They're pretty, they're pretty official. Like if they have a website, that's pretty, a good chance that you would have an actual real human there. There's also, you know, the factor of, um, with screening, etcetera. Sometimes they do like e-transfer. Well, like here in Canada, e-transfer. So it will like show, show the other person's name. Um, it definitely, and you can also see, especially in Canada, there's PERB, TERB, and VERB, which is also like Pacific Escort Review Board. So you can actually review providers on these boards themselves. So if someone's a scammer or something like that, then they definitely will be shouted out on the boards themselves.
Yeah. Well, and and that's the thing is like, you know, people talk, right? And so they talk a lot on the internet, you know, like, don't use this, don't use that, whatever. But the picture that we've painted now is a really messy, kind of anxiety-ridden, uh, disaster, whether it's Canada or America or Antarctica, wherever. What do we do?
Well, yeah, and the thing is to bring, um, not only legalization and all the things that would be amazing, right? But just a better understanding would really clear those things up, you know? To to to unionize, to, I mean, there's so many things, right? And so, do you think that those discussions start to happen in Canada, in America, wherever, like we said, without a better understanding of the culture of sex work? And so, so, well, like I said before, like the 30-year-old mom was like, what a slot, Karen made up OnlyFans and she's finger painting with or whatever, right? All the [ __ ]. Yeah. Um, do we have to make, uh, this, this person understand how it's beneficial first, or just is it just like, let them figure it out later?
No, I think there's a huge aspect of humanization that we need to give to sex workers, just first off from the get-go. Even just the amount of dead hurricane jokes, like I'm, I'm [ __ ] over it. Like, we don't, we don't need a [ __ ] joke about that stuff because I'm just like, at this, at this point, like there's still a lot of sex workers that get harmed just because they're sex workers. Like, there's no other aspect to their bodily harm than a person attacking them in terms of, um, seeing them as less in that sort of way, which is really unfortunate. I definitely think in terms of silly Karen, um, I like to pose a lot of this question to a lot of people because I've had my own experience with sex work. When people ask me, how does it feel to sell your body? I'm like, well, I sold my body all through serving, carrying all those trays and those tables, slaving away, sweating. My construction worker friends sell their body, carrying bricks every single day, like up and down stairs. I was like, if, if you're gonna talk about selling a body, like we sell our bodies wherever we go, whenever we're getting working and paying for it, like that's what we're doing. So how is it different in terms of the sex work itself, you know?
Yeah, and that's amazing. Um, and and full transparency, so you are a sex worker?
Yeah. I should have started with that, right? But I've had my experience in it.
Sure, sure. Um, and and even with things like Only, like, do you have an OnlyFans?
I do have an OnlyFans.
Okay. So, so yeah, so, so there's that, right? And you've had experiences in the past with sex work, so you've, you've lived this thing. Um, and so you are coming to it from a place of not only experience, obviously, but understanding. And so obviously that comes through in all of your content, which is really cool. And I encourage everyone to go to go check it out on Instagram because it's again, you do have that sort of like fun energy, right? Um, and that, and that's helpful because people get like really worked up about this [ __ ]. They really want to control you, you know? Um, and unless they're paying to do so with consent, get the [ __ ] out of here, man. What the, whatever. I don't, I, I've never understood the need to control someone in that way.
So what do you think needs to happen systematically, right? Like, what can we do, just as people, um, who are fans of sex work and and want to humanize sex workers, and, um, what are the logical steps?
Yeah, for sure. I feel like in terms of the first thing is like, when you hear people kind of putting a person down or kind of giving them hack about doing sex work, it's like, how does that affect you? How is it affecting you? Just ask them that question because I feel like a lot of people don't even understand why they're so worked up in the first place. It's kind of like this intense rage or this intense shame. I can like feel in my belly sometimes from people, uh, when they're like giving off that vibe. Um, it's like that intense shame in their belly or something. It's like a grip. And so I kind of, uh, want to always ask them, you know, go forward with curiosity. What is it about, um, these people that aren't actually hurting you? Like, I'm curious, what in what sort of sense are these people doing something wrong for your own life? How are they affecting you negatively personally? Uh, generally, there's an answer of nothing. They're doing absolutely nothing with my life. Um, and so I kind of see that as like a really good opener. It's kind of like, okay, so like, what's actually wrong with it? You know, like, what is, it's only those two simple questions, right?
I feel like a lot of people, uh, can also just, you know, come, come forward. I always think, you know, with the idea of don't shame, don't shame a person who doesn't really know about sex work. Like, I feel like it's really too easily we like to cut off people who are just, just don't have the education just yet. Um, I think it's really good to just, you know, put them forward to some sex worker, uh, sort of blogs or something like that, where they actually kind of talk about their human lives and how it interacts with sex work and it's very normal. I think a lot of people think sex workers have these alien lives of just sex all the time, or, you know, I'm like, I like, you know, when I was doing sex work, when I have my OnlyFans, like I like to watch Netflix, I eat ice cream, I like to [ __ ]. Yeah, cool. But I also have so many great things also in my life that I love to explore and do and be. So yeah.
Cause maybe you're a human. Maybe I am a human. Maybe I'm not a little alien, who knows?
Yeah, I mean, and that, that's the thing is like, again, you know, sex workers have been dehumanized, right? So like, that's the whole point of, of this, this episode really, is to to try and like, I guess find a, a, a common, nah, that's a bad [ __ ] term, narrative, right? To find, um, a common sort of, um, ground that we, and we're having this discussion, um, but if we were to bring somebody in here who is like anti-sex work, they'd be all over the place with why. And and that's, and that's, I think, yeah, and people are are sort of driven by their own sort of internal [ __ ], right? Whether it's a religion or or whatever that is. And we don't have to even get into that, but it does get so, um, venomous when there's two opposing on this topic because I think, and and when, and when you're trying to make your point, then I think the counterpoint from a lot of people who don't understand would be like, well, I just don't want my children. It always goes back to that. I don't want my children exposed. You know, while they're smoking their cigarette with [ __ ] people being beheaded and [ __ ] on the news in front of their guitar, so they don't want their children exposed. That would be there. That's what I would imagine. I don't have kids. So they're an expose.
Yeah, I, I just think that's just such a funny fact in terms of, I, that could be an argument maybe for like way back in the day when there was a lot more, um, outdoor, uh, sex work. But there is, it's moved a lot, you know, there's definitely still a lot of, you know, street sex work that happens, but a lot of it has moved indoors. It's the age of the internet. Porn is literally [ __ ] anywhere. So I mean, if you're thinking of your child is not going to be exposed, like don't give them a computer. They're going to be more exposed to that than a sex worker living their life.
And do you feel like the more that you try and take away something from from people from a culture like that, makes them more curious?
Yeah, definitely. For like, for curious in terms of like the sex work, or like, yeah, more sex? More curiosity?
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, I remember the first time, the first experience I ever had with the internet, right? Was like going to a friend's house. He's like, hey man, look at this. And it was like this, like thing that would load and it was like Jenny McCarthy like blowing some guy. Somebody had like put the heads on other bot, you know what I'm saying? Like, of course, that would be the first thing, yeah, that we would go to on the internet because it's new, because and it was taken, it was like such a don't talk about sex sort of, right, sort of thing. But, you know, and it still is obviously. But now, right, like every kid's got a phone and an iPad, you know, all of that stuff. But I just think that trying to sweep it under the rug has come back to haunt everybody at this point. And we're at this explosion with technology and culture and whatever that it's like, oh [ __ ], like you're not putting anything under the rug now. It's not staying there, at least. So I just feel like the more we try to keep things away from people, the more enticed they get to to search it out.
And on that note, I just wonder if, um, you know, if you can, if you can speak to [Music] how bad that is to like deny somebody because that's essentially what's happening with sex work. They're making it worse. They're making it by by not legalizing it, people are allowed to like roam free and do all these things and people don't want to report it because they don't want to be arrested for being a sex. So you have more violence, you have more corruption, you have more dudes that are like, I'm your pimp and all the [ __ ] things, right? If we had more time, we'd get into these things. But in an overview, it makes it so much more severe. The, the consequences of the game are so much more, um, lethal than they would be if it were legalized or allowed or whatever.
Legalization. I prefer decriminalization in terms of still gives more authority over our bodies. But, um, I definitely think the idea of sweeping it under the rug, the note that I wanted to make with that was like the amount of coaching clients that I have in terms of the sweeping it under the rug portion, not only society as a whole, but if you try and do it to yourself. Like the more it's like going to be a a buildup of like over years, like, you know, people who want to like see me, you know, I worked as a dominatrix before, so like people who want to see me as a dominatrix, like, you know, wanting to explore this fetish that they haven't explored in like, in their entire lives and they're like 50 years old or something like that, which is crazy to me because they're like, this entire life I'm trying to get rid of it, trying to sweep underneath the rug, etcetera. Being able to finally explore it, I see such a huge, I want to see it almost like a therapeutic shift. Like I see the same thing with my coaching clients is what I see with my, what I saw with my dong clients, is that there's a shift within them because they're allowed to actually just be in their own authentic self. They're allowed to explore this part of themselves that they haven't had any attachment to for quite some time.
Yeah, that's that's awesome. Um, and and I'm wondering if we could, um, sort of sort of end with what it is you do. Like, like what is it, what services do you offer? What kind of things do you do? Um, what does day-to-day look like with you? Like, if someone wanted to reach out to you for a certain, um, for certain services, what would they be?
Yeah, for sure. Um, I do offer still a little bit of dominatrix work, so people can reach out to me via my Femforth website to ask for that. Email that link if they would like it. I don't provide it on my actual website. Um, I also provide one-on-one coaching calls, though they're done online. And so it's for anyone who wants to gain acceptance around their kink, want to explore a different kink more, um, even just their sex life in general. I work with partners and couples as well, which I really, really enjoy. Um, so you can always just go to my website, femforth.com. And I have also a YouTube as well with a bunch of fun videos. So if you want to see more of my energy of what Dustin was talking about, that's where you go.
Yeah. Um, okay. Jaylene Sherry, thank you so much for being on the show. So, so where else can people find you besides the website? Like, I know, I know you're on Instagram and all that, but if you want to list everything off, that'd be great.
Yes. Um, I'm on Instagram. I'm also on Facebook. That's, um, also on Twitter. It's all in the same username, Femforth. Also on YouTube, etc.
Yeah. Yeah. And all that is lady.j-a-y-c-h-e-r-i-e.
Nice. Nice. There we go. Thank you so much for being on the show. I appreciate it.
Definitely. It was a pleasure. Thanks, Dustin.
Big thank you to my guest, Jaylene Sherry, for being on the show with me this week. Um, go check her out on Instagram, on Twitter, on YouTube. Her content is really [ __ ] awesome. She's really fun, tons of value there. So make sure you do that. If you're getting a ton of value out of this show, if you're digging Sex Party and you want to help the show grow, there's a couple ways you can do that. If you're listening on platforms like Apple and Spotify, you can subscribe to the show. You can leave a review. You can leave a rating. These things really, really help immensely. Um, if you are watching on YouTube, yo, how you doing? Sure, you're okay. Okay. Um, you can leave a comment on the video on YouTube. You can like the video on YouTube. You can subscribe to the channel on YouTube. Again, these things help the show grow into whatever monstrosity it's gonna grow into. Um, you do not have to do these things. I truly, truly appreciate it if you do. Um, if you guys wanna chat with me, you can send me a message anytime on Instagram or Twitter. And I can't wait to see you right back here next week. [Music] Thanks for listening. The party continues next week. Click subscribe and let's make this a regular thing. Follow the show on Instagram and Twitter at Sex Party FM. Follow Dustin at Dustin Ripa.