Transcription
Received justice. Two, the victims to these crimes have not received justice because they have not gotten to know the fate of those they accuse. Three, the community—the community in which this offense was committed. We are talking about an offense that carries around, um, we are talking about 50 counts; colleagues and the judiciary cannot come up with a plan to find justice for the victims, for the accused persons, and the community where this offense was committed, for seven good years.
When you get time and scroll through the internet, you'll find that previously in the same court we had the honorable justice; when he looked at these matters—matters to do with delays—he would not tolerate them. You find the decision of Justice, I think Rafen Uganda versus Sec and others. I think that case is session case number 85 of 201. The judge is saying in that case that a delay of 2 and a half years to try a suspect, to try an accused person, infringes on their right to a speedy and fair trial. Two and a half years. And you want to argue these points, but you have no judge before whom you can argue these points. So, two and a half years in Secura, the judge is saying they—inordinate—that's an inordinate delay. Here we're talking about 7 years of pre-trial remand, and there's no justification for that. There's nobody to explain to you what is happening. That's a travesty of justice which you cannot tolerate anymore.
The second matter relates to—I have an—um—my client is now being blooded as council for the disease because the client is going to die just under your watch, and you have no remedy. You have no legal remedy. So this client suffered, um, an unlawful eviction on part of his land in 2017. This client came to court, high court, instituted this case when the—when uh—the team of land grabbers had taken part of the land. So the client became a bit frail. Uh, the matter was not tried until we called it for mention. It was filed in 2017. We called it for mention. The man changed lawyers around four times because he thinks that the matter is not moving because his lawyers are not serious. So this man comes to us. Um, we pushed; the best we could get was a mention. We said, fine, now we can hear the—we can go ahead and have the matter fixed for hearing. Then the judge was still around. We—we—we—we came for the plaintiff's case. Um, for some reason the matter did not take off. So when they fixed the matter for the next hearing, the client died in between. Now I have to run and get somebody for somebody to be appointed to substitute the deceased. So we prepared the application. Meanwhile, the land grabber is enjoying. When you file an application for an injunction, the register will tell you this matter is before the judge already. The file is before the judge. Whatever remedy you need, you go to the judge. So when you file an application to substitute the deceased—the deceased name on the plane—that application cannot be had because the trial judge has now gone on study leave. So that matter, instead of—instead of having this matter, um, reallocated to another judge, the judge that was there—discussion—says, no, already have a lot on my plate. I cannot take on any matters of that docket. You wait, they're going to bring for you another judge. So they said this matter will be—it will come up in—around 4 months' time. But remember the grabber is enjoying the land. He's even getting more pieces of land. He's annexing. This is an—this style—chaka-chaka style. You just neighboring portions for one year. We've not had a judge handle the matter. That matter has not—the matter—not the main suit. The matter whether to substitute that deceased plaintiff has not been entertained. So what you hear—you keep saying—you come back in December. You come back at this time, and it's one year down the road. There's no solution, colleagues. That's the—that's the—those are the facts. We are not talking about fiction. We are talking about real issues. We are talking about—we are in a furnace. We are burning. There's no justice. Thank you so much. You're welcome. Arrested and charged for paying money by false pretense because also going—that's—but Mr. I know you broke off when you are still sharing some stories. I don't know whether your network is now a bit fair. You could come back and finish your story. Thank you. Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Uh, sharing with you uh the story of uh my client whose case has been in court for the last 12 years. I am the fourth—I am the fourth lawyer—this matter. The first two lawyers have since died, and uh this is property. This is land where my client sued her mother for trespass, and because the applications were very many, the judicial officer advised them that let's fix the main matter instead of wasting a lot of time in applications. Let's fix the main matter and have it and determined on its merits. I am telling you that position has taken for the last 6 years. The first six years were spent in applications. Then the other six years have been spent in adjournments. We have told you Masaka has had a history of transferring one judge and leaving another who does not want matters of the other falling in the docket of another judicial officer waiting for another judicial officer. So when this—when this fallen victim of such practice and appeared before the judge. This time we got a chance and—and got to the judge. So I try to explain them the situation and I sought for to—and bring on other witnesses in the new course. The last surviving witness also died. So I'm also in—in a worry, and my client is also worried that he might be the next person. I, as a lawyer, I'm also in the worry; I must be the next council who's going to die because so far two have died. So this client is suffering. The land has been—the other—the defendant has gone on the land. He has constructed a school. The school has been now in existence of 10 years—for the last 10 years. Imagine if this matter is heard for locus; is he going to find ready? Now I want us to feel the pain of this client. Now that is in land. This is an old man who is frail. She has—he has also lost it. The other matter I heard was for two—a widow—two widows had suit against their children. The children were grabbing the property that was left to the—to them by their husband. Now it so happened that this matter dragged due to the absence of judicial officers [Music], and the two widows died. They died without getting anything out of their sweat or enjoying anything out of the estate of their deceased husband. Now that is in land. Masaka has a history of land matters. Most of the issues—the—the suits we have in Masaka are arising out of land, and there is mismanagement because we don't have judicial officers. You imagine a judicial officer goes on a study leave. It is okay. We have no problem, and we don't take offense. That is a right. But now when this judicial officer goes for a study leave, the entire judiciary—I believe when a judicial officer is going for—for leave—it is either the judicial service commission that grants that permission or the administration of—of judiciary. So they are in the knowledge that there is a vacuum left behind in Masaka. But I am telling you for the last one year we have been engaging the system, and they have been promising us—ah—there is another judicial officer coming; another one is coming; another one is coming. Not until when they got lost of excuses; that's when they started telling us you wait for her; she's coming back very soon. Now as if that were not enough—that is in regard to land matters. Now let me also shed for you a picture of what happens in civil commercial transactions. You've heard what that client has told you. It is no way different from what others are going through. Imagine you have bought something or someone uh owes you money. You take them to court because the subject matter is above. It goes before high court. There is no judicial officer to hear a matter and give you a very interim remedy because financial issues are really very serious. So 3 years down the road you want to get this money from this person when it—when they still have it. So 3 years down the road these people have eaten all the money. They have wasted it. It is no longer there. You get judgment. They are telling—who does not even have a single penny. They don't have any single property that you're going to sell to recover the money. Now I want to shed light to—to criminal practice. Those of you who have practiced criminal law in—in criminal practice in Masaka know very well that getting bailed in high court is really a mystery in Masaka. At least for the last four years, we reduce this—mir—as if we lost you again. But he's back. I think—I think you're on. Okay. So this convenient session will never come. First of all, we have very few sessions that are given to Masaka for the last one year. I think if we've not had a visiting judge, some of us have gone out of criminal practice. A client comes and they want to give you money—instructions—for—for—for applying for them bail. You just tell them, my friend, I don't want to take your money. We are not going to get anything. And now another judicial officer comes and they tell you first come, first served. So everywhere—all the force—all the practices of law—civil, land, criminal—nothing is exceptional. People in Masaka are suffering. The area Masaka is covering is very wide. It is very vast. We are talking about 10 districts. 10 districts with a population of over 2 million people. And really you want one judicial officer to serve these people? I believe this is a joke. This is a joke for now. Let me stop there. Back to you, Mr. Host. Thank you very—for that L. Sorry, I think we lost L. Mr. Sich came before him. Pardon me. My name is Joy once again, and um I just want to appreciate you gentlemen for sharing the stories and for humanizing this because then when we hear exactly what is on the ground—I think other than what we are reading—but getting real-life stories, I think it puts a different perspective to it, and we want to appreciate you even for making time to be here, and I want to say that since you are in the hands of the lawyer's lawyer and nobody can stop reggae, so we want to assume that we are okay. Uh, now I want to ask either of you can answer this. I want to—um—you to help us paint a picture because I don't—I want to believe that this did not just start yesterday. Uh, would you say there was a final straw that could have made you—final stroll that could have made you—to decide to finally put your tools down—your stories—each one of you—but—but would you say there's a particular bit that happened—event—or something—event that we could say was the final straw and then you said you're putting your tools down? Thank you very much. Okay, thank you. Necessarily an incident that happened, but the leader of the bar in Masaka—I get a chance to sit on uh some of the top management uh meetings—the RCC in Masaka, which has the representatives of all the regional heads of whatever department—so long as they are jealous—always bring this issue of having no judicial officers, and everyone does not seem—they have—they have taken it as something normal. It is business as usual. You talk about it, they tell you, "Ah, no, no, no, council, we know that is a problem. Let's wait for—for the judiciary—for our bosses to send us." Not until when even the—the—the judicial officers themselves tell you. We have also asked our bosses. We have told them the pain we are going through. We have one single lady judge who is the new person in the judiciary system, and she's taking care of this very big station. She cannot do enough. We have one deputist who is also doing the same work. They are worn out. So they also tell you, you know what, we—we—we have no solution. So not until when we sat down after getting too much demand from our clients—after the PJ promising people of Masaka how he knows our problems because he has ever—that was Masaka was his first place of uh of appointment when he was a judge. So he has promised people on various meetings—often days—he has promised Masaka people, I know your problem; I am sending you two judges—one—two—in Masaka and at least one in Rakai. We are—we are operationalizing that—that port—so he excites these people, and they keep on asking us, you—you lawyers of our—seem to be lying to us; the big man was here, and he promised us all this; now here you are telling us he was telling lies; you cannot be serious. So all this put together sparked off whatever you are seeing; we would not wait any further; the people of Masaka—the community people—we are also tired; they told us because what we are doing is not for—is not for our own benefit; it is theirs. You know, we lawyers follow instructions; they asked us, please, if it means not going to court, do that; let it be; let us see that you are happy because you see when we keep on writing letters and engaging these people—their offices—the clients don't see that. We have to be accountable to our clients; they give us money; they pay us money. So all that put together—all that combined—sparked off what you're saying, my friend. Thank you. The chair, or do you share the same sentiment, or would you say there is a particular um incident that happened that would you—would consider as having been the final straw to you laying down your tools? Not a reaction; it's not that we are waking up one day and we are saying let's do this—no—let's lay down our tools—no. We've engaged. For the past one year, we've engaged; we've constituted a powerful delegation of senior advocates from this jurisdiction. They've met the principal judge. Um, now the DCJ, like my president has told you. Um, he promised to handle, but for the last one year there is really nothing that's forthcoming. This state of affairs that we are—that we find ourselves into has no explanation, and nobody is ready to explain—the staff at the court. The administrators at the court cannot explain it, and they cannot explain when and how it's going to end. They don't know. They cannot explain to us. So, and when you look at what's happening across the board, you cannot understand why this particular jurisdiction has one judge who has just been appointed—newly appointed to the bench. Why do we have four judges at Mukono? And that's with tremendous respect to our colleagues practicing in Mukono. What is so special in Chagu? Why are people in—having four judges, and we have one acting judge as we wait for somebody—as wait for one judge that went for study leave? Is this jurisdiction too far? And these are questions which we kept asking ourselves, and there are no answers from colleagues from Kampala up to Masaka. You need a maximum of 3 hours. So is it too far? Is it further than—has two judges? Why are we having one acting judge? Is it further than Fort Portal? Fort Portal has two. Is it further than these? These questions you cannot find answers to. Is—is it that judges do not want to work in this jurisdiction? You—you keep—as a bar—as a local bar—you keep asking yourselves, why are judges shunning this jurisdiction? Is the problem spiritual—ghosts in the jurisdiction that judges cannot—cannot counter them? What is the problem? There's nobody to answer these questions, and that's why one of the things we are going to do—we request for cleansing. The bishop has to come and pray for—for this place. Maybe—maybe the problem that's barring the judges from coming here is spiritual. So in the absence of answers to these questions, you have no option. You have no option other than going to—adopting a civil mode. Let's let down our tools. Maybe these people will come up with answers. You can't understand judges—uh—courts that have been decongested with the creation of Wakiso High Court, and the same number of judges that used to man those courts are still there. Why should we have to wait for a judge that went on study leave? And where is the guarantee that by the time she comes from study leave, she will immediately dive into—she will immediately dive into cases—including matters which she handled a year ago? Isn't this judge going to break down? Where is the guarantee that she's going to—immediately she comes—she's not going to take leave; she's just going to go into—to dive into these matters? So in the absence of answers to these questions, we needed to—to hit the road running. We need to do something, and that's what we have done. Um—um—with the voices being amplified on such platforms, I think we're on the right course. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much um gentlemen. Um, for those who are joining us, welcome to today's judicial service conversation, Justice on Strike, the courtroom cries for help in Masaka. We are honored if you're joining us; we have with us Mr. Roy Alexander and Mr. Samuel Sewa, and we are discussing the issue of the judicial strike in Masaka. Um, and we have—he had our colleagues—really express themselves from the bottom of their hearts. I mean Mr. Lule said that they're almost becoming non-performing assets, and Mr. Sich is wondering if the problem is spiritual in Masaka. As someone who has traveled around the country, I can tell you whatever spirit that is, it is very prevalent not just in Masaka. And—but—but—but—but now that the strike has started, I think you've been on strike now, gentlemen, for two days. And I think this question is also to both of you. And we'll start with um Mr. Lule. You've been on strike, Zander, you've been on strike for now, I think two days. What has been the response so far from the lawyers in Masaka, from the judges, from the public? What—what—what sense do you get? Do you get a big sense of support? Are lawyers um participating actively in the strike? Clients understanding it. Um, is there a response from the—from the courts? Give us the—become our barometer and our thermometer in this situation and just measure for us the temperature of the strike that you've done and so we can know if you're—you're removing the spiritual challenges. You're—you're removing the spiritual challenges that Mr. You don't have to call using a—I think it will be full to the brim. That is the heat this activity has picked from the public, federal lawyers, and everyone that is concerned. The federal lawyers are behind this because like we said, you have seen the petition—rather—the resolution. The resolution was signed by the majority of the lawyers. Even those that did not sign and do not believe in this cause. Of course, they are people where—like we keep on engaging. We should not stray. Um, I think—Did you lose me? Well, I lost you for a minute, but we—you're back on. Okay. Thank you. So, like I was saying, the whole—the public, the community, even the fact that it is the community that asked us to do this. There is no way they can be against it. They are in support of the same. If you have seen various communities have come up to join the press. The press is also concerned—by the way—has been following whatever is happening. Today the political wing led by the mayor of Masaka also held a presser, and they were addressing the same issues—the same concerns. So everyone is behind this, and we are calling upon every person because this seems to be a Masaka problem, but it is not because Masaka has lawyers who are practicing in Masaka coming from all various points of the country. You people have relatives this side; people have property in Masaka. So any person who has any connection in Masaka is affected, and we should join arms together and fight for this cause. This cause is not for the lawyers. I repeat that once again. It is for the community. So the community are welcoming it. We have at least been on various talk shows—radio talk shows—and the people calling are in appreciation of what is happening. In fact, they are telling us you really delayed to do such a thing. It was wrong of you. That's all I can say. Thank you. Thank you um so much. Um—um—over to you, Mr. SA. Um, what's your sense if you're using a thermometer?
What is your sense of the temperature of the strike? Thank you so much, our lawyer.
Um, I think we are moving on well. Um, I've said it before that um we did not just wake up and started this. We have we have a war plan. We have a strategy um for this issue, and that strategy takes into account the length. We don't we don't know whether it will be handled this week. We don't know whether to be handled next week, but we have a plan.
Um, at first the issue was really more to do with our clients. Our clients did not seem to understand this. The moment they reached court on Monday, they started calling and then um when we finally explain to them what's happening, they seem to be appreciating. Um, the mood is that everybody who is concerned about this issue is picking up. Our view is that once we work collectively, then we are able to achieve the results. We are able to properly practice law. We are able to do what lawyers are supposed to do. So um with where we are at, we think we are on the right track. Thank you so much.
I think the question is, is there enough in Masaka? One would wonder whether the same is in other regions because I'm imagining a scenario where I believe the registry is around and the officers at the lower court like magistrate and grade one, so factor this like I I practice from Kampala, practice from Jinja, and I don't practice from Masaka region, and for me I come to to court and I appear in the matter, either I proceed ex-parte or I dismiss because maybe I'm not part of your Masaka lawyers. So my question regarding this: have advocates from other districts shown solidarity, given that any lawyer can appear in Masaka court from any region of the country, or you're standing alone in this? I think Mr. It was more to that. Thank you. [Music]
So even if you came from uh Fort Portal or Kampala for that matter and you want to proceed in the high court, you are not going to proceed because um the judge is handling a criminal session. So if um if you have if we have a civil matter together, be prepared, you're going to get an adjournment because you can't proceed. Uh, when it comes to the matters before the registrar and the magistrate colleagues, um what we need to stress also is that we have no issues with the magistrate. The chief magistrate, the magistrates grade one are really working, and this strike is not about them because we have no issues. You go before them, you have a matter, you proceed. But see, we decided to do it omnibus so that we boycott both so that this message can be sent in. It doesn't make sense for you to appear before a chief magistrate or a magistrate grade one. Whichever way the matter goes, one party may want a remedy from the high court, and you cannot attain that remedy. So we decided to do omnibus so that it's uniform, otherwise the matters before the registers, um the matters before the magistrates still may not be able to proceed because this this situation is known. We've communicated to the chief magistrate in magisterial areas. We've also communicated to the registrar. The registrar is aware. So, um it is highly unlikely that you're going to proceed in the high court. So, if you if you do so in the magistrate's courts and you have the matter dismissed, uh the rules are clear. When we resume, we'll come and have those proceedings actually set aside. So um it's one of the things that that are in our toolbox. We we'll deal with that when we resume; otherwise, for now, we are really not into court. Thank you. You're welcome.
I don't I don't Mr. has the same take of I'm coming from wherever I'm coming, I'm not part of lawyers, I have a matter before the registrar is around and may I proceed considering that I don't know how long this is going to take, but if it takes too long and there's no response from the relevant stakeholders and maybe even of waiting and they end up proceeding with the matter so I initiated with you or even the officers are they with you in Masaka region or you left on your own. Apparently, all the other lawyers are still in solidarity with us. At least none has come, given the wide saturation of uh the notice and the resolution, and we still call upon those that are not aware yet. Please, this is a cause for all of us. No one should be tempted to to betray the cause for the judicial officers being in in agreement with ours. Definitely, I don't know, they cannot come out to say we are standing together with you, but I believe deep inside and given the signs and given the the deliberations we had with them before, they were also not happy with the status quo. They were also not happy with the status quo, even the judicial officer who's around, and it is at this point that I'm I'm also wondering what this uh uh this uh is it called Ug is it Uganda Judicial Officers Association? I'm wondering what its role is because I am seeing it's one or two of its colleagues being overwhelmed with this too much work, and they just sit there doing nothing, they're not coming out to say anything to fight for their colleagues. You can imagine if you have to be in a station where you have to 4,000 matters—are you a robot? You cannot have any breathing space. Trust me. Yet your bosses want results. So I for the judicial officers, I don't know, but that is also a homework for them. Those who can reach to them, please let that be known to them. But for the judicial officers around, they have also not been to us at least in the matter being dismissed because of the lawyer's absence because they're aware we are on a sit-down strike. We have communicated officially, and I believe they are also following our our request. So for the lawyers, at least for now, no one has betrayed rather has betrayed the court, and and no matter how long it is going to take, you know we also have a strategy like my friend told, we have a plan, we have given ourselves some time which is better best known to us where in case these people don't respond within a given time, we are going to increase the gear, we are going to go in a higher gear. So let us wait for for that to come. We shall cross the bridge when we get there. Thank you.
Julie noted, I hope the greater Masaka region is safe. Um, so I know you've hinted on bits of communication uh with the community and also a little bit with um fellow land council, but then I would like to hear from you. Have you had conversations like officially with the judiciary regarding the matter, and would you share with us if there's been any kind of communication in regards to the matter in specific? I think I'll start with you um Mr. say you could share with us uh if there is anything. Thank you.
Thank you so much. Um, colleagues, we've uh tried to we've engaged uh we've engaged um the various stakeholders in the justice system. We have um like I submitted earlier, when this problem became persistent and we saw that there was a vacuum, we constituted um a de a delegation that went and met the principal judge, now the DCJ. We handed him a petition. um that petition uh was included the cries the cries of the people in the greater Masaka region. We had a meeting with him, and when we did, he promised he promised that he was waiting for appointment of judges so that he deploys two judges in Masaka and two judges in Rakai. Up to now, there is no such deployment. In January, when we learned that the judge had gone on study leave, we petitioned the office of the president of the Uganda Law Society, our leader. We wrote a detailed petition to him so that they can engage as the n as the head of the national bank, they can engage the chief justice about the about the predicament. about the issues, about the injustice to which we are exposed. We delivered a petition to him. We saw a letter, I shared, the president shared with us a letter to the honorable the chief justice seeking a meeting to have this to have a number of issues, red-hot issues handled, discussed between him and the chief between the bar and the honorable the chief justice. We waited for we waited for a response. We waited for feedback. What did we see? We saw how the president was um denied opportunities to speak at the new at the event where he was actually denied where he was denied a microphone to speak. He requested he saw the end of the chief justice so that he can speak, and for us we thought this was the best time because we a lawyer we are we are entering a lawyer, let's have these issues discussed, issues of law, issues touching lawyers, the livelihood of lawyers. After that um after that um they've descended onto He's now not here. Though um our view is that if they had taken of time to listen to what he was saying, we will not be where we are at now. Would not believe that um warrants of arrest um contempt proceedings or anything are the solution, especially at this time. Um, the beauty with it is that um we've kept um we've derived a lot of inspiration from um the R&B. We've dived a lot of inspiration from the president R&B. Um, he has an open-door policy. You would call him anytime you want so that you seek guidance, you seek consultation. So as advocates, part, we believe the R&B and our lead have done the their part. All we need is the judiciary to come in and we find a permanent solution to this impasse. Thank you so much.
Thank you. Um, Mr. Lule, I don't know if you have something to add to this and maybe you could also um clarify for us the timeframe or the time within which you had this conversation with the judiciary, cuz if I hear you if I heard you well, I think you only stated to have had a conversation with the president of the Uganda Law Society in January. Uh, would you say this was around the same time that you had the conversation with um judiciary? Thank you. Mr. L.
Sorry about that. Answering the first question before I answer the last one. uh, ever since we we made a resolution and uh declared whatever action we are taking, we haven't gotten any any feedback or any engagement with the judiciary administration. They are still quiet about it. Of course, at first they said we have not been served officially by this. Then after serving them officially, they changed the statements to we have done this in a hurry. We have not given them time, but these are all lies. It is very unfortunate and it is very shaming that instead of giving us practical solutions because that is what we want. We are only asking for something very small which we think is within their capacity. We want a second judge. We want other judges in the high court. Simple as that. There is no magic. You don't have to go and ask the president of Uganda for that. No. Let them okay, give us a visiting judge or visiting judges as we wait for the one they want us to wait for until when the leave is done. But then that is for the first question. Then the last question, uh we engaged with the PJ in December. We wrote the letter in November and engaged him in December, and thereafter that is one we thought we also needed to engage the topmost leadership, but we thought that was beyond us, so we handed it over to the national leadership, and now events followed as Mr. Sa has explained, so that's it, yeah, thank you.
That's how so far you have gone? I think most of us most of you have been with us since 7:00 p.m. So and we're getting the head of this conversation. It will be unfair if we don't get to hear from you. So if you have any question, any comment, you can ask for a microphone to request to speak or you can share in my inbox. I see someone shared here saying this the same issue with my eye as well. This was from Angela. She had said that he has a client who bought land and it in the shi's name and later got issues with finances and decided to transacting and decided to transact in the land. So he was told to apply for guardianship order because he wanted to probably get money to take the children back to school. So to apply for guardianship order and he applied, but 3 years later his application has never been heard, and the children are now out of school. So this one really painted a very bad picture. Imagine buying land for your children, now you want to transact it, but you can't, they're out of school just because there's no there's no judge at court. So maybe if you have similar stories, if you have comments to share with us, you can send them in in my inbox or in the chat section or you can request for a microphone to speak as we get to the end of this conversation. I'll invite M to ask, I think he has some more questions. Thank you to everyone who's joining us right now. We're on the judicial service conversations. Our topic today, Justice on strike. The courtroom cries for help in Masaka and our guests Mr. Ly Alexander and Mr. Samuel Sicha are um from Masaka. Mr. is the leader of the Bar Masaka, and he has just painted a picture and um the solution of a single judge. If if if a judge has 4,290 cases, just I just want our people who are listening to just I just want you to paint a picture of the life of that judge. If a judge has to listen to five cases a day as trials, I want you to just paint the life that that judge is live is living. We've hosted previously on these spaces um the former principal judge of Uganda uh the honorable Mr. Justice Bamw who told us that he wrote so much he had to actually get treatment for his hand and that by the time he was appointed principal judge he could hardly write and so he used to simply do mediations. I know of judges in the court of appeal and the supreme court whose names I maybe I'll not mention who have developed an issue whereby they now have to use laptops, they can't write anymore because at a certain time in our judicial practice the the record was taken by longhand. You look at the health crisis in the judiciary; if you go to the medical board and you look at the number of judges applying to be treated abroad, it is simply because the burden on the judges is too much. Um um we are talking about for example a judge on study leave, like a judge decides that you know I need to improve myself and goes on study leave and then the whole world collapses because of an inability to replace. We've been we've we've never before in the history of this country had as many judges as we have now, as many circuits as we have now, as many courts as we have now. And yet I think the state of backlog is absolutely incredible. So gentlemen, I want to invite you to discuss something that has been very clear to us, and one of the first people I actually discussed it with was Mr. Sicha and uh this is the issue of Article 142 clause 2 of the Constitution of the Republic of Uganda. Article 142 clause two of the Constitution of the Republic of Uganda provides in clause C that where the first of all it provides that where for any reason a judge I'm not reading it verbatim but I'm just giving you the highlights. So it says where for any reason a judge is is unable to perform the duties of his or her office. Where the office of a judge or a justice is vacant or where the chief justice notifies the judicial service commission that the state of the business of the court so requires then the judicial service commission shall the president may appoint such number of justices as may be required on the advice of the judicial service commission, and if you look at that process it does not require the approval of parliament. We've been calling those judges on these spaces mission-based judges, people who come in with a purpose, the mission to deliver justice. And so my question to both of you gentlemen is I don't know if you've taken account, I'll start with Mr. of Article 142 2 of the constitution. And if you join me in crusading for us to start having a more creative approach because instead of giving us I mean if you get a single judge I I I I traveled around the country. I went to Mbarara, had two judges. Each of those judges is sitting on a docket of 2,000 cases. 2,000 cases. What what are they going to do with 2,000 cases? Um you go to Kabale, you have a similar problem. You go to Mpondwe, it is just at a completely different level. You go to Arua, Arua has 11 districts and has one judge. You you go all over the You go to Gulu, I found judges in Gulu sitting on 1,500 2,000 cases. Are we able to deliver with the same kind of thinking, justice to the people of this country? If we keep appointing more judges, opening more circuits, it's very good. I support that. Let's appoint judges. Let's open circuits. So gentlemen, what do you think about Article 142 2? And before you do, allow me to welcome those who are joining us to our judicial service conversations. We are almost winding up, but I think it's an important conversation that we are having. We are standing in solidarity with the the practitioners in Masaka. And as as has been said on this space, all of us are literally practitioners in Masaka because we are all accessing the court in Masaka. I have cases there. Um, so now I have to be on strike. So, uh, over to you, Mr. Lawyer's lawyer. Our lawyer literally, and by the way, we should all no one should stop Reggie or no one can stop Reggie. So, whatever we are doing is reggie in a style. So, no one is stopping us. Back to what you said, what you asked. I believe now that we are looking for practical solutions. We have tried everything. The leaders have tried everything on various platforms and uh various forums that are in line with uh appointing of judicial officers and all that. The parliament has done its work. I believe the money has been availed. The budget has recently been read and you know you at least know how much has been apportioned for the to the judiciary, but we don't have judicial officers. I think it is high time we looked at the practical bit of it, the practical solutions which we are looking for. We don't have judicial officers. The judges are not enough. So what do we do? There is that provision of the law of the constitution. Can we can we get literally let me use we can get judges on contract basis from within us lawyers. Someone who has come to handle matters, they get like 100 matters. They say we are bringing on like 100 lawyers. Of course, very many do qualify to become judges. So you get like 100, money is apportioned for that cause. Everyone is given whatever number of cases so that we can see how backlog can be fought. Otherwise, we are going to see keep on singing the same very song, and there is no solution that is going to be given to us. Imagine we are talking about a vast area of 10 districts. 10 districts have only one judge. Can you ask yourself how many members of parliament are in those 10 districts? Does it make sense? I think there is a problem somewhere. It is high time we woke up, came up with solutions. Everyone is one of the solutions to so that we can fight backlog. That is my submission. Thank you.
Thank you. And u Mr. Sa, what's your take on and and and I first I want to thank you. I think we need Bachuba, and I agree with you that the Bachuba are there in the Uganda Law Society, and I think we need Bachuba to come in and help us really to to address this issue, we need we need a new kind of thinking, otherwise the thinking that brought us here, but anyway, Mr. Sa, what's your take?
Thank you so much, our lawyer. I concur with uh the submission of my learned brother. Um, my view is that um Article 142 C in particular um is one of the best special backlog reduction strategies because you're using resources that are readily available to You you have a very big pool from the Uganda Law Society. You have persons that you can deploy to cure this issue of backlog in areas where we have a a very um adverse state of affairs of the business of the court to which Masaka is just an example. I had my colleague saying um Mbarara is the same. You're not bringing a solution because Masaka has come up. What about other
Areas? So you find mission-based judges and just like, um, you and Alex are saying, we have enough in the Uganda Law Society in Masaka itself. You have very senior, seasoned lawyers who can qualify as true for these matters. Take them to High Court. Senior Kawanga, Mr. Mr. Mo, so many of them. So I agree, um, that Article 1422C is one of the best remedies in times like this when issues are not—when matters are not handled properly—then we resort to what the constitution has given to us. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you very much.
Um, please, if you have questions, you can send them in. If you’re just joining us, we’re discussing justice on strike. We’re about to wind down the conversation. The courtroom cries for help in Masaka, and you’ve heard overwhelming support from the Masaka bar for our proposal on mission-based judges. I’ve seen one question for me. Um, someone called Mosesu. [Music] He says, says, “What if power goes—won’t rea stop?” My friend, rea is not plugged into the wall. It is in the heart, not the socket. It is the drumbeat of defiance and the anthem of freedom. It cries without permission. It sings with melody. You, your reggae, which is plugged into the wall. Understand this, Mr. Moses. Nobody can stop reggae.
Um, but uh, I think there are other questions which I’m seeing here. Uh, I think someone has raised, has, has highlighted the point you make about, um, about the point Mr. makes about the number of MPs. If you actually get the entire greater Masaka region, I think it may be the size of a, a certain state in the United States and a certain state in the East African Community. Maybe I need not mention the name of the state either in America or in the East African Community. But in both those places, there is a chief justice, a Supreme Court, a Court of Appeal, High Courts. But in Uganda, there is one judge. So I think this, this, this is something that, um, that I think needs to be looked at.
But someone is also asking, um, “What about ADR? Why don’t we resort to ADR?” So I think I don’t know, Mr., maybe, and then Mr. Sicha, if you could both take on that question very briefly on ADR. And I think the question is, is, yeah, okay, please go ahead. The question was, “Isn’t ADR the solution?” Well, the issue of ADR is good, but it is not the solution here. You see, I don’t know why—I don’t know whether the judiciary is promoting the ADR perspective for the good reasons or as a result of the fact that they cannot handle adjudicating the cases, and now they want parties to settle. And if you have really seen, we have abused this instrument called ADR. We have really abused it in that people now decide to go for ADR because they have no alternative. They cannot—someone imagine someone who is in court for 12 years, for the last 12 years. All his, all his witnesses have died; he’s the only remaining witness. Ask me how this person is going to say no if the counterpart tells them, “You know what, come and sit on the table. Let me give you this much, or let me give you half of this land. You take that and I take this” at the time we are spending in court. You have seen the mediation in Court of Appeal. All of us who are Court of Appeal practitioners know how Court of Appeal can really abuse the mediation system. You find an appeal; it takes seven years. People die. Someone loses; the only call-back position is them going to settle with these people and settle for the less. It is like going to the pitch and one person’s hand is tied; what do you expect? So ADR is a good instrument, but it is not the solution in times like this where the systems have failed and people resort to, to ADR simply because they cannot get any, any remedy. You check what happens in prisons; people go for plea bargaining not because they really committed offenses. That’s why I hate criminal practice. I don’t want to preach anymore. I don’t want that nonsense of—because you talk to a client and a client tells you, “Know what, the truth is that I didn’t commit the offense,” even you as the lawyer when you lose—but as he was commenting, someone said, “Yeah, that will grant a B application or a—” Even mediators who conduct sessions and this one who applied for a guardianship order wondered whether using ADR can get his guardianship order transacting the land so that the children can go back to school. So I think it’s really fronting why there is not the perfect solution, and we need just judges and not even any other option.
But let me—I think Joy, do you have any question from your hand and before we close? Okay, Zander, you are proceeding. You’re saying something? Sorry, you had lost—you. At what level did you lose me? I think you were complaining of—you explaining to us about, uh, mediation about pre-bargaining and how the pre-bargaining system is being completely abused, because it is being abused because this person tells you, “I’ve been here for the last 7 years. I was just robbed from home. I don’t know what is happening to my kids. They are telling me my land is all sold out. I want to serve at least a very small sentence, or 5 years or 10 years. I get to know my fate and get out of this.” So what kind of justice are we really giving? Yeah, thank you. Sorry, we can have a question if you have from your hand. Now, I think I will start with Mr. I know that earlier in the presentation, um, I’m not sure if it was Mr. Lule or Mr. Sicha, uh, who passed on a bit of a threat that they know best what they’re going to do should this strike not give results, and as you’ve hinted also in the discussion that they are “bachuba” somewhere, so maybe those “bachuba,” you can give us a coded kind of thing what that threat is about so that those who need to prepare can prepare, but the question here is that how long do you, uh, plan to be on strike, especially if the judiciary doesn’t, uh, swiftly respond. So over to you, Mr. Sicha.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much, Joy. Um, like I said earlier that, um, we, we took a step and we have, um, strategies. We have, uh, we have a clear laid-down strategy on how to achieve the goal. I’ve seen, I’ve seen on a number of, um, fora that, um, we need two judges. This station, for it to be effective, does not need two judges, and we are not demanding for two judges. This station, with the backlog—this backlog of 4, um, 290 that they’re talking about is as of 10/2025. Now, with expiry of letters of administration, these letters not only expire in Kampala. Even here, our clients that have letters of administration, when with the amendment of the Succession Act, we are, we have filed multiplications for renewal or extension of letters. So the backlog should be in 5,000 now. That backlog does not need, does not need two judges. We are demanding for 12 judges and two and five registrars to be able to serve our people better. The bar does not instruct itself. The bar is instructed by the clients who are the court users for us. We are just mouthpieces. We are not there to—we are not there to—would not instruct ourselves. So with all this, council have failed to prosecute an application for amendment of pleadings. Amendment of pleadings. The principles are clear. A gas transporter for 2 years. You have not failed to get a ruling on amendment of pleadings. We are being labeled incompetent. What kind of lawyer can fail to prosecute an application of such a nature—amendment of pleadings or an application to join a case—for 2 years? So as we are being labeled incompetent, we are determined not to report to work. We are not going to come back to courts in this greater Masaka region, whether at the magistrates’ level, whether at the High Court, until we have a solution. We are not demanding for two judges. We want 12 judges. Let’s do cleansing. Let the Bishop come. The Bishop of, um, Masaka Diocese. Let him combine with the Bishop of West Uganda Diocese and they cleanse this place. It seems the problem that’s barring judges from coming here is spiritual. Let them come and cure this spirit. I will not, uh, I will not reveal our tools. I will not reveal what we are doing next. But as the course—in the course of this struggle, you will see that we are actually deliberate in what we are doing. We are not mistaken. We are not fighting a political war. We are not. But things are not fine. The state of the court is worrying. We cannot continue with this trade. I have argued before that this issue may be, uh, may be deliberate because they know you cannot secure bail. Why is every political prisoner dumped in Masaka? Whoever they get, they’re dumped in Masaka. Could it be because they’re aware that you cannot prosecute an, an application for bail in this court? I have argued also before that we saw firsthand—those of us who practice here—we saw firsthand a prisoner who was denied bail for a very long time. That prisoner was granted—a judge had to move from here, go to High Court Criminal Division, and they brought that man on his deathbed. The judge granted him bail of 30 million cash. They collected the money, and after collecting it, the man died that same day. What are you talking about? So who has killed that person? Who has killed that man? Are we going to keep quiet because it’s not us? Are we saying—are we saying that’s a Masaka problem—in this jurisdiction of voodoo—when, um, when there’s a problem on the village, drums are sounded, and the sound that communicates danger is called—it calls upon every able-bodied person to come forth and delivery and participate in remedy. We have—we need solutions. Let everybody join us. Let’s do a collective effort. This is a bus. This is a bus. We are stuck. The driver is stuck. So we have—we as the passengers have to come in, and that’s all we are saying. So our colleagues, um, I request that we all join efforts. Today it’s in Masaka. Tomorrow we are going to put two judges at the civil division, and you have an application, you cannot actually proceed with it. Let’s have equity in the deployment of judges. That’s what we’re asking for. Let’s have real remedies. Thank you so much. I actually agree with you. Although at one time or just about two months ago, we had no judge in the civil division of the High Court in Leon too. But I think that has now, um, been resolved. But I think Joy was still speaking.
Thank you, sir. Thank you, Mr. Um, I’m going to be posing the same question to you, Mr. Lule. Before that, I think, uh, there’s somebody who commented and said, uh, “Just in love.” She’s saying, “Why are most political prisoners dumped in Masaka?” And I think there are other reactions to Mr. Sicha’s, but I think Council Alfred will handle that. So Mr., uh, do you want to add on to what Mr. Sicha has said? Would you also want to disclose some of your tools or what do we expect? Thank you. [Music] “How many dogs can fit within Masaka?” and the reply was, “This is privileged information.” There is a, there is a word they always use. So that information is exclusive. It is only known to us. You want to be part of it, join the, the reggae. However, in addition to what my brother, so, has said when he stated that a gentleman was brought on his deathbed, some of us may not bring or make sense out of this. To put it clearly, this German citizen was brought on a stretcher. He was brought on a stretcher with attendants in a courtroom. I think you can imagine, you can get what this means. But this gentleman had applied for bail. Those of—had applied for this man’s bail. I don’t know how many times the man was—I think they were trying to say, “Let us release him and he dies out of prison,” and indeed he died either that day or the next day after being granted—court in Kampala. We all witnessed what happened to—these people cried for bail. We all know—we all know—we are all lawyers—we know the conditions for granting bail, but whatever reason they are aware—These are some of the injustices we are crying for. And I am telling you—and I myself—tomorrow are going to be candidates. We are going to face the same problems. We are going to be victims. Right now we are lawyers, but tomorrow we are going to be clients. Our relatives are going to be clients. Imagine if you have a situation—you are gotten—because everyone now is a candidate of going to prison or police. They, they, they, they open up the trump—judges—charges of you of aggravated robbery. Now it is the new baby in town. They, they, they take you to court. You can—you cannot apply for bail. You have to wait for the 6 months. My friends, we have a—we have a chance to fight this before it comes to our doorsteps. This is an outcry to every person. By the way, I have a matter and Mr. Sa coincidentally happens to be my lawyer. It is a civil matter. I am a litigant. Now, this matter was allocated to the res—to the resident judge that we have around for mediation. Now, I want you to get this. What is going to happen in case the mediation fails before this judge? Who is there to listen to my case? No one. I will still run to my lawyer, Mr. S, and tell him, “Please tell me—give me a solution.” Are we going to run to the Principal Judge and tell him, “Please give us a visiting judge because of this situation?” By the way, we have such situations where clients have had to run to Kampala so that the matters are treated specially, and then the files are allocated—transferred to Kampala for the judges in Kampala or for a judge in Kampala to entertain their matter. This is a situation that is really very, very unfortunate. It can happen to you or myself or any of our close relatives. Let us not keep quiet. Let us not think this is a Masaka thing and we keep seated in our chambers, all wherever we are very, very comfortable. Why? That is why we are sounding the drums. He—for us in—like Mr. Sicha was saying, the communication is by drums. We are sounding the drums of—let every person come and join this struggle until when we get a solution, or else we are going to go—and we never know—we may close our chambers as well and go to farming or go to trade. Unfortunately, even when—even when we go there, we are going to become litigants and we shall need redress in courts of law. So it is going to haunt us—to haunt us wherever we shall be going. Let us wake up from our comfort zones. If so and so did it, we can also do it. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Some of the English has also gone, but understand. So we have—we now going—some few comments and then we have your parting shots. I know this, this, this could go on and on and on, but time is not our best ally today. So we want to read some few comments then we can go with parting and then we say we close. Maybe one comment from Robin Hai says, “Can’t be the only lab—back reduction strategy. That we need to have a comprehensive—comprehensive strategy with both the bar and the bench arguing and contributing to it because we are participants.” So decided just to include mission-based judges, ADR, expand resources for allocation for recruitment of more judges, or utilizing the existing budget envelope and very many other solutions. Then Mr. Alex Mment says he agrees entirely—the backlog is not only in cow courts—with pending cases that indeed invoke the constitution and exit the remedy provided for—that is for the mission-based judges—and then for—about—says a good approach which can also be invoked. I think Justin’s question was answered wondering why most political prisoners are dumped in Masaka. Faruq says, “There are many issues leading strikes of judges in our country. Why is it that this is only discussed when it happens in Masaka?” In particular, for us in—we have—we have had a land case that has spent more than 20 years—then I think when—when Mr.—giving their parting shots, to answer I think this question of—and then from Alan Woya who says, “The ST is almost at the moment where—what—where other stakeholders in this—have you taken time to engage others, for example, Members of Parliament of greater Masaka, because they, they don’t seem to be anywhere”—and then this one is saying, “Citizen rights are biblical—tradition and constitutional. Do you believe citizens have a right to take laws in their hands sometimes?” I think we’ll respond to some of those questions as we give your parting shots. I will start with Mr. Sen will conclude. Thank you.
Thank you so much. Thank you so much, in particular our lawyer Karanga. Thank you so much for giving us this platform to amplify our voices. Thank you so much, colleagues who have, uh, taken off time—your precious time this evening to be part of this space. Um, like I said, um, we are as practitioners—incompetent. We’ve failed to do even the slightest assignments given to us by the clients. And the cause is not that we are inherently incompetent, but we’ve been disabled from executing our mandate because the judiciary has not cared. The judiciary has not taken any step to have to provide redress to these complaints. Um, what I would say is that we are serious. It’s not—u—we are not—we are not—we’ve not taken this step as, um, as a tool to intimidate anybody, but we want these issues to be given a permanent solution. Let’s have a permanent solution. Let’s try to find answers to some of these, uh, issues—some of these issues that have been there for a very long time. Um, we, we’ve decided to stay away from the court functions which they have organized. Let them go and eat their chicken. Let’s stay wherever we are and fight for our rights. Fight for the rights of our clients. Fight for our livelihood because it is now at stake. Um, otherwise, I thank you so much once again for joining us, for giving us a platform to amplify the voices, for being part of the cause. Let’s all continue with the fight so that we have a better judiciary, so that once we have a better judiciary, we have a better bar. I thank you so much. Good evening. Thank you. Sorry. Thank you for joining us—your time with us for almost now a few hours. I’ll take Mr. Zander to have your parting shots and the way forward in five—four—five minutes. Thank you, Mr. Are you able to speak? I don’t know. Could be having network issues. Yeah. Is—proceed. Proceed. Proceed. You can hear—is—of the space. [Music] He’s now a listener. Is he the one who is lunch? Mr. Zander, we lost you. Well, I sent you an invite to speak. I think we lost you as a speaker. If you could just accept it and have your parting shots as we try to get hold of Zander to come to have his parting shots. Yeah. Right. Just one more comment from Miss Singo has made—medo says, “The prevalence of can erode the right to fair trial. This has always been my concern regarding the plea-bargaining process as that—as it appears to undermine the integrity of judicial process.” Let us all support the cause; alternatives are ineffective. I think this one rec—what Mr. Sicha was saying that we need judges and not another thing. We have to get hold of Alexander, but yeah, I think he had made most of his comments and said them well. I’ll invite Miss to close off us with his parting shots. Thank you. Have a good evening.
Um, um, colleagues and, and friends, thank you for taking your time to join and listen with us. To our hosts, thank you so much for taking the time to be with us. I think Joy, it’s your first time to join us as a host, and we hope to be having you here a lot more. Thank you, Alfred. To our guests, um, Zander and Samuel, thank you for not just sharing with us the stories of your clients and your practices, but for speaking very boldly and for speaking truth. Um, for not just listing problems, but for lighting fires beneath the problems. Um, thank you for not bringing us a tantrum, but bringing us a testament to the fact that justice must not only be done, but it must manifestly be seen to be done. And the fact that justice too long delayed is justice denied, and that, um, while we don’t have the power to solve all these problems immediately, um, and while many people may be working in different directions to solve these problems, I, I, I honor you gentlemen and I…
Honor the bind massacre for really saying enough is enough. Because, as someone once said, a time comes when the cup of endurance runs over. But at the same time, we need to have conversations that are structured and that go to the root of the problem.
Part of the problem, in my view, is that we cannot say we can solve the problem of more judicial officers or mission-based judges when we don't even have, in my view, a functional judicial service commission. Because at the moment, I'm seeing the commission advertising for vacancies and yet a crucial organ of the commission is missing—the representation by the members of the Uganda Law Society. How can a body function properly with a missing organ? How can that organ itself function properly when it is missing? We are having a problem, a problem where the gap and the gulf between the bar and the bench is causing us to have silence and to leave the courts. This is not a solution that is long-term.
We need to go back to that place where we are able to bring our challenges together as a legal society because we do not serve ourselves. The Uganda Law Society, the bar, as I have always argued, are about 6,000 people who have a right of audience to represent 45 million others. When we're talking about the court in Masaka, colleagues should understand that we all practice from the court in Masaka. That I can get an instruction from the court in Masaka, and I do have a number of instructions in Masaka, to go to Masaka and argue; lawyers. There's no geographical limit as to where a lawyer can argue. You cannot say that you're a lawyer who is not practicing in Masaka. As long as you're a lawyer practicing in Uganda, an opportunity can arise where you do have to go to Masaka. Because someone's in Masaka does not mean they're not practicing in Arua. The fact that Arua also has a single judge will affect people in Masaka. What affects one of us directly will affect all of us indirectly. We are bound together. Someone once said, with a network of mutuality, what affects one directly affects all indirectly. And so we must have a solution where we do not allow our organs to die. We do not ignore our organs. We do not say that a judicial service commission will sit without the constituency of the law society. We do not say that the lawyers will have nothing to tell their clients. But let us just avoid going to the courts of law. If disputes aren't resolved in the courts, where then shall they be resolved?
If people are talking about ADR, I'm hearing spiritual solutions, ADR. I don't know if some of the spiritual solutions are part of ADR. You know, we need to bring justice back into business and we need to take injustice out of business because justice is needed, and because injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere. With those very few and short remarks. Since we are talking Masaka today, I am sure that in Masaka, one of the favorite songs of the people in Masaka is a favorite song of ours. And we are going to close with that because that song is also a song of this election. While there are people who are trying to stop the ULS from having that election, I am still maintaining, as I told my friend Moses who was saying, what if you remove it from the socket? Nobody can stop reggae, and nobody will stop reggae. And as we go into this kind of election, I think what members of the law society need to understand is that we are pushing forward. We are not stopping because when that time comes, there's only one thing you can imagine and one question you can ask, and this is a song that I'm sure I sang up and down in Masaka, and I'm sure when lawyers are singing this song they're thinking of us. And that song is my passing message to you. And before I do that, allow me to tell everybody who has joined us from wherever you've joined us from: good morning, good afternoon, good evening, and good night. The song, from me to you, especially from me to members of the Uganda Law Society, is this.