All right, it looks like we are live. Waiting for some people to enter the chat so we know that people are watching. All right, we got somebody. Maverick Al is here. Mod me please. I don't have I I don't have the the resources to do that, Ben. Sorry about that.

Oh my gosh, I was trying to arrange my notes. I'm are we gone? Are we on? We're on, we're on. We're just having a little we're having a little sorry, I'm so sorry. It's charming. Don't worry about it. We're having a little before-start chat. You guys can you guys hear us both? Can you just say in the chat if you can hear both me and Mac? And I am new at YouTube. I'm not getting anything back on that. I'm here to laugh at you all. Yes, so Maverick and Mitch, you can hear us both. Okay.

All right, well, we're ready to go then. I think we've got we've got some plenty of topics to begin with. I am just like what's going on here? Is the window showing not my webcam? No, it's showing fine. It's showing fine. Is it frozen? Well, Mack, are you there? Oh no, Mackin's not there. Mack's frozen. All right, I'll be having a discussion about Mackin's uh uh picture by myself. No one else is in this meeting. Mack and Murphy has left. I'm sure he's got the link. Am I backwards to you guys or am I straight? We can see his screen all clear. I think I'm backwards. I'm going to have to reverse that. Transform, flip horizontal. Okay, now I'm correct. All right, now I am no longer mirrored. We're waiting on Mackin to return, everybody. Mackin has got cold feet and he bailed out right away. Kidding. Just a little bit of technical difficulties that we are very used to at this point. How are you all doing? Tell me how you're doing in the chat while we while we get Mack and back. Copy link. I'm emailing Mac and Murphy right now.

I am absolutely nobody, or I was absolutely nobody two months ago, and now I am talking to world-famous sex researchers, and it's all because you guys clicked on my videos and told me how cool they were. You dropped off. Okay, Mack. Sending him a link again. So everything is working perfectly except that my guest is not here because he's in Australia and the data bounced the incorrect way. Can I do some videos on creativity? Yeah, I will do that. M, I will. Levels of consciousness. Awesome. Thank you.

All right, all right. I'm so sorry. My computer completely fro—like literally as soon as we I first accidentally exited out, yeah, and then my computer froze when I rejoined. So I'm here for real. I I completely apologize. Last time was just a a doppelganger. Uh, yeah. Well, now you've got a now you've got a slightly lower quality camera. Um, we're we're using we're using my worst computer, and I've had to kind of does my uh does my microphone sound okay? You sound great to me. Had to kind of rig it strangely so that way this microphone actually connects. So I've been been having a lot of trouble over the last uh over the last few minutes. How are you? I am oh man, I mean I'm doing like better than I ever have been, which still is not good, but that's just my story. How how are you?

I'm good. I I see that you've recently become uh spectacularly famous and wealthy over the past uh week and a half, so so congratulations. It's really the added out of absolutely nowhere, but thank you. And congratulations to you for all of your stuff too, whatever it is. No, I know it. I know it. Yeah, I mean there's there's very there's very little to talk about. Yeah, it's um but yours is so recent and sudden, it's it's it's incredible, and and I feel like I have um I've hit the lottery. I asked you to debate a month ago when you were, you know, getting half as much attention as you are, so yeah, this is uh this has worked out better for me than anyone. It also worked out great for Atlas VPN, who I'd like to mention again because they're by my first uh my first uh uh promotion and talk about. Buy low, sell high. They yeah, they got the deal of a lifetime.

So let's get into it. We're we're here we're here because, you know, uh Mac does sex science, that's what I call it because it's fun, and I have read some sex science, but I have more expertise in, you know, psychology and developmental psych and spirituality, and I'm more of a of an of an interior-out kind of person, and Mack is more of an observational uh person, and he has some vague and sometimes general uh sometimes specific rather points to make about the things that I'm saying, and we're going to kind of talk them out out in front of you all, and it's going to get just rough and rude and brutal. I don't think I don't think either of us have the personality for that, but yeah, it's um yeah, I'm here in a constructive spirit. Uh, I'm aware that your audience already just absolutely hates me. I've I've I've been seeing the I've been seeing the comments coming in ever since we started promoting this. Uh, it's gotten to a point in my career where I, you know, my my TikTok feed used to be so peaceful, and now it's all of uh it's all H maath fans in in the comments. That is so fun. It is fun, but I'm not a person who, you know, I don't really need to be liked. I I I it's it's, you know, internet dislike isn't something that has a huge effect on me either way, so it's so it's not made me particularly uncomfortable, and I'm also not someone who's I'm not someone who's worried about having a conversation. Right. A lot of people, you know, when they have some kind of beef or whatever, and this this is something I'm grateful to you for. A lot of people when they have some sort of beef, you know, they're terrified to actually have a conflict about it. I me I mean Rolo Tomasi blocked me on Twitter after following me because he was too nervous too nervous to speak to me. It's like completely ridiculous. Um, but I'm I'm glad that you're yeah, I'm glad that you're able to speak to me, and I have no problem speaking to you, even though your audience uh your audience isn't a fan.

I mean, I'll just say one thing to your audience up front, I guess, yeah, is that there's a perception that I'm hugely blue-pilled or biased or something like that. Yeah, I'm not, you know, I'm not red-pilled. I'm not blue-pilled. I I feel like I'm frankly just too old for that kind of thing. It sounds like, you know, debating your favorite color Power Ranger, you know, it it is. Yeah, simp. Yeah, I just take facts. Yeah, I just take facts one by one, and if you look at all my work, right, I know that you have some criticisms of, you know, the way I present things, but if you look at all my work, I mean I talk about how beauty is largely not socially constructed. Uh, I talk about how body count actually does predict bad outcomes. Basically every other video I talk about evolved psychological sex differences. I mean, this is I'm I'm, you know, I might be anti- a lot of red-pill talking points, yeah, but that doesn't mean that but that's not a sign that I'm biased. That's a sign that I think they're wrong. It's just a way of coping to be like, oh, he thinks I'm wrong on this point because I'm biased, and it's like if you look at all my work, I don't see a huge bias there. And then another idea is that I'm just, you know, I think the there's a lot has been made of the science versus personal experience side of this, which I've obviously leaned into and you've leaned into as well, and you know your audience has leaned into that. They say, you know, like I'm just in my office all day, and I I have no idea what's going on going on in the real world dating-wise. I'm a 26-year-old man. How would I how would I not at this point in my life have some had something? I mean, this is ridiculous. I mean, you know, I've i' I've had all the normal I don't talk about my personal life, and I I don't feel comfortable with that, but I've had I've had all the normal experiences and and a few abnormal ones romantically, so so it's not it's not like I'm just in the office all day. And on the personal experience point, I mean there's going to be some tension throughout this conversation, and and we will get into it because we're going to be talking about uh you know your most influential commentary on the dating market.

Yeah, I think it would be good to just to to illustrate the way I think about this thing. The the tension between personal experience and data uh is, for example, um something that I talked about recently on my podcast. I was thinking about which is the data on beards and attractiveness. Yeah, right. Facial hair and attractiveness. So we have just decades of literature looking into, okay, do women like facial hair? Do they not? Does adding facial hair make the same men more attractive? Right? Do men with facial hair have higher reproductive success? And the overall tilt of it seems to be right that some facial hair is more attractive than none, right? Some degree of facial hair. Yeah, but that doesn't align with my personal experience even slightly, right? If I I've got a little bit of stubble right now. If I show up to my girlfriend's place with this amount of hair of my face, right, she's going to greet me at the door with a razor, right? So my personal experience tells me that women like clean-shaven men because women have never liked me with a beard, right? It just doesn't suit me. Sure. So it would be stupid for me to look at the data and say, oh, I must wear a beard because the data says that on average men are more attractive with beards. That would be but it would be id to say, oh, beards don't suit me. Of you all of the data beards is fake. Beards aren't actually attractive. That would be stupid as well. So that that's that's kind of my take is that personal experience can be very informative, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily extrap—does that make sense?

Yeah, I think that the best way to go about it, which is what I try to do, and you know I I obviously I don't read a fraction as much research as you. I'm just going to get that plus one for attractiveness. Um um is that I I like to read as much as I can, but I I've I'm very skeptical of everything that I read coming out of out of universities because there's so many like you witnessed recently. There was somebody in one of my comment sections who uh uh I have I have a draw up for it um he uh uh we were talking about the the myth of man the hunter. I'm gonna oh yes, yes. And this is yeah, this is something that's worth talking about where there was all this there was this paper that said, look, women hunt too, and then non-academics were like, hey, it's a myth. They got this idea that women were participating in the Willam Mammoth hunt, and it's like, well, maybe to an extent, maybe sometimes, but sex differences in hunting are very very large across hun GA societies. Yeah, this is one of the biggest sex differences we have, and it's also not a particularly mysterious sex difference. I mean, if you've got ju let's just be frank about this. If from a just a strategic perspective, if some people have to go hunting and half the population is on average larger, broader, and more aggressive, who are who's G to go do it, right? So it's like, yes, women do hunt sometimes, right? And that paper, you know, was that was a worthwhile contribution to say, hey, sex differences maybe not as big as we thought, but that's not the same as saying there's no sex difference. And so all these non-academics take that data and they use it to feed their, you know, they use it to feed ideology as opposed to yeah, exactly. Exactly. And it was funny because you actually you you did well there because you went to the actual paper and you're like, hey, that's not what the authors of the paper were saying. Like, you're misinterpreting them.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a there's a lot of that, and I get very I get very skeptical, and you know people imagine people, even me, this is my job now, and I still don't have the time to read all that stuff in that detail. There's just there's a lot of noise um out there, and uh I think that, you know, you've you've gotta you've got to, you know, live your life, and um you've got to read the data, and you have to, you know, have some skepticism of what happens both like you've got to you've got to know that some of it is just not not applicable generally or to others or, you know, that it might be like the myth of man the hunter thing. Yeah, exactly. And I and I think um I think we'd better I think we'd better start disagreeing because we're we're being way too friendly right now. It's too it's not very rude. Yeah, I promise rudeness. Yeah, people yeah, people in the audience our audiences completely despise each other, and I think it's I think it's high time we give them we give them something to we can't have them be friends and share audience now. So yeah, exactly. Exactly. We I think we need to maintain the hatred, and and your audience needs to continue calling me a s and a [ __ ] and a white knight and all those things. So let's uh let's give them some content so they can uh feel good about themselves. All right, I've dra for that too. Yeah, no, you you go ahead. I want you to I want you to lead and just, you know, sort of tell me what you think about what I'm saying. That's yeah, of course. Well, how about we start with um how about we start with with what I was hoping to start with, which is your this is obviously your name, not mine, uh the standard female delusion charts. If you could maybe bring those up and um if you could and talk, I guess, because some of my audience is going to be, you know, watching this, could you just make your point? I I'll give you as much space as you want, and then I'll comment on it. There it is. Okay, I've brought it up. So you want me to just kind of explain it, right? Uh, yes, although I can't see it currently, for what it's worth. Okay, I believe that it's working. Let me just check guys on the YouTube. Yeah, it's working on the YouTube. Okay, they can see it. They can theart. Yep, it's full screen. You explain it. I've got some critiques of this um beyond the name, uh and how about you talk them through it and I without the benefit of being able to see what's going on, I'll I'll try to give my criticisms. Sure.

Okay, so this is the standard female delusion chart. I put it I grouped it together with these gray boxes. Uh, this is the most important part of it that I'm circling right here. It's uh how how women see men and how men see women uh in an unfamiliar uh setting. Uh, this is the most important part of it. So I think that overall men tend to view women uh fairly. They they there's there's a lot of fours, fives, and sixes, and there's very few nines and tens. Very few zeros, ones, and twos. And that is men evaluating women that they haven't met and don't know anything about. Women evaluating men that they don't know anything about I think are a lot less fair, and I think that they according to, you know, pretty much all of the dating app data, women are grouping 80% of men as below average, which is, you know, that that it's might sound mathematically not possible, but it's like they're taking that 20% of men and making them so valuable that the average is actually push down. They their preferences are really really really high on dating apps. I think that translates to real life to a certain degree. I think that women look around and see men that are overwhelmingly basically invisible and unimpressive, and in order to become impressive, you have to um become familiar. Okay, so let's let's yeah, yeah. So let's stop there. That's well explained. What exactly so you've you know gleefully called this delusion over and over again. You said that women are delusional yeah for this preference, which is a pretty that's a pretty strong thing to say. It is. What what is delusional here?

So the delusion that I'm pointing to, and again, you know, this is it's it's a half a joke and it's a it's a half based on things that I think are are really happening, and the part that I think is real is this area right here of the chart. I can't see just you know, yes, I will explain, but this one I it again is a half a joke, but women rating themselves. It's just cut off between five and 10, and it's it's pushed towards its 10. So all the women are like, I'm a 10, I'm a 10, I'm a 10. I've seen that going really crazy lately, and I've had tons and tons of experiences with women um, you know, with relation to me uh with relation to, you know, other men around them believing that they are very deserving of a really high-quality mate when they, you know, are really average or maybe slightly more slightly less themselves. And in some cases in some cases, yes. Yeah. So I just want I just want to focus. We'll go point by point. Let's let we're going to talk about women overrating themselves as a phenomenon and some of the data around that, but let's start with the men and women viewing each other in a short-term context. Yeah, the first thing I want to say is that it's more or less accurate to say I me there's some there's some mixed findings on this, but I would agree with you that in a short-term context, men view frankly the average woman as attractive, whereas women view the average and I mean average meaning like the median man as unattractive. Yeah, a lot of men, maybe not you think that this is as you said mathematically impossible. Yeah, that's you know, that's that's a very silly error. It's an error that scientists actually make memes about quite regularly because it's such a common one, but most men, for example, are below average wealth because some men are very rich, and most men don't have that much money. So most men are below average wealth. If you take the average, it's going to be above most men. Yeah, same thing, right? When I when I when I was uh, you know, serving the Americore and working with students, I was working with seventh graders. The average height in that classroom would have been above everyone except me because I'm quite tall, and they're seventh graders, right? There's nothing the these types of distributions they appear in nature all the time, and there's nothing mathematically errant about them. There's nothing wrong with them. Data can show up like this all the time, right? So for women to say that most men are below average attractiveness, some of you your brains are going to be like, oh, that's that's impossible. They're delusional. That doesn't make any sense. And it's like, no, that actually does make sense. Some men are really hot, and most are not, right? If you thought of it as, I guess, you know, your last name is Math, so we'll we'll talk through like a mathematical version. If you take a group of 10 men, right, and nine of them are ones, meaning they're just untouchable, and one of them is a 10, then the average in that population will be 1.9, which means nine out of 10 men will be below average. So that's just to say that there's nothing delusional about women not wanting to [ __ ] you, right? Like that's that's not and it's an unhealthy thing for men to be thinking to themselves, oh, women are delusional for not being interested in me sexually. Not true, not fair, and also not going to change anything, right? You can't argue and logic women into finding you attractive. This is not something that this is not something that's going to change. Another thing just about attractiveness in general, right, and I'm actually going to read you a quote from the Oxford Handbook of Human Mating because it's it's useful here because we talk about attractiveness a lot in our data attract, and this is their quote: Attractiveness is not an inherent property of the entity being perceived; it is a perception produced by psychological mechanisms in the mind of the perceiver. End quote. Yeah, what does that mean? That means that women can't be wrong about you being unattractive, right? If if all the women are saying that most men are unattractive, that's just the fact. Most men are unattractive, and no amount of coping saying, oh, it's delusional, oh, it's not fair, oh, it's D D D D, that's not going to change it, and it's also it's it's not accurate. So it's both inaccurate, unhelpful, uh, it's not something that I agree with. So let me ask you about it in in this angle. If I I hope I'm not cutting you off.

No, no, please. The reason the reason that I use the word delusion and that and that I poke fun at it is I believe that there has been a really strong tilt towards women viewing themselves as more attractive and more desiring of high-quality mates recently with the advent of technology and accessibility like universal accessibility and the secret that's possible with technology, the the the ability that we have to to connect, you know, again, uh women of of all levels of quality to the highest-quality men so quickly and, you know, efficiently, and I think that what that does is in the the the part of the female brain, the same thing that gets us addicted to sugar and caffeine and cocaine and whatever, the there is this addiction to feeling worthy of a high-quality mate that makes them ignore men that they might otherwise be interested in in a world where this did not happen and wasn't so easy. Do you think that that's a feasible thing because that's the basis of what I'm saying with the standard female delusion chart that the the accessibility is making them pursue these relationships because they can get them short-term, which makes them think, well, if I was having a short-term relationship with a man, it would be because I considered him long-term. They're projecting that on this. So these are yeah, so these are two important things that I think going to have to come back to systematically. So I think we'll cover men lowering their lowering their standards for short-term mating when we get to zones if that's okay, and then the hypergamy chart that you've drawn, I actually want to talk about that in detail on its own, but let's talk about the specific quality that you've extracted here, which is women overrating themselves. Yeah, right. This is a perception, and it's a misperception that a lot of men have. Oh, women women overrate themselves. Women overrate their attractiveness more than men, and where this perception comes from is all these viral podcasts run by people who are selecting out the most obnoxious people they can find on the street. They're not representative of the general population of women, right? And then they're asking them to essentially overrate themselves. In some cases, this is this is just demonstrating an effect that we find pretty consistently, which is that unattractive people so so people have a decent understanding of their own attractiveness unless they're unattractive. Ironically, if people are very unattractive, they tend to be very bad at perceiving that. Right? Who knows why? I, you know, I'm not I'm not someone who's enough of an expert on that subject to have some good ideas as to why, but we know that unattractive people tend to overrate themselves in general, and so these podcasts, they take women off the street, right? And they basically have them overrate themselves on camera, and that gives everyone the impression that oh, women overrate themselves more than men, but that impression we've done the experiments on this, and that impression is false. If you take a large group of people, not handpicked people off the street to embarrass them, but a large group of normal people, it's a very simple experiment. It's been done multiple times, and it gets the same result consistently. What you do is you get let's say, you know, the most recent one I think it was 186 participants. You take them off the street, right? And you get them all together, and you say, okay, everybody rate themselves sexually. How sexually attractive are you? And then everybody rate

Each other, and what do we find? Well, ironically, off your graph, we find that men overrate themselves much more than women. And there's evolutionary reasons.

You mean that they think that they're more than the women think they are?

Oh yeah, men are like, "Oh, I'm, you know, I'm I'm I'm a seven, I'm an eight," and and the women are like, "No, you're actually a three or a four." And then the women are like, "Oh, I'm a six, I'm a seven," and the men are like, "No, you're a five or a six." Right? So everyone, you know, there's a bias where people think they're more attractive than they are. But the irony of your female delusion chart is that it's wrong in sign, singling out women when men are the ones who do this much more. And frankly, there's gonna be—and and you know what the other side of this, this this is another thing about about these red pill guys that I just I find so annoying—they're in the comments, and this this isn't my original observation, this is something that a lot of people have observed, but they're in the comments on these videos of women overrating their looks, saying that they're—"I'm a high-value man," they think they're a high-value man—and it's like, "What are you doing in the YouTube comment section? Shouldn't you be doing"—like, it's like that seems, just based on the activity that I'm watching you doing, that seems a little delusional.

There's quite a lot of that.

Yeah, yeah. So, man, so the reason that your female delusion chart annoys me, yeah, is one, it's I think it's unhelpful. I don't think women like being told, "Oh, we're delusional," right, on mass. I don't think that's good for the mating market. I don't think it's help for men who are struggling with dating to be told, "Oh, women are delusional because they don't, you know, they don't they don't find you sexy." Right? It's like, "Okay, thanks, thanks for telling me that they're delusional; that doesn't that doesn't change anything." And I also don't think it's—I I know it's not accurate to say that women especially are the ones overrating themselves because men have a a systematic habit, for decades of research, of overrating themselves. So the men overrate themselves much more. Talk and I can talk as well, and I don't have to, but if you're interested, I can explain the evolutionary reasons why men are more likely to overrate themselves. I don't think it's a social phenomenon; there are some scientists who think it is. I think that men have an evolved bias to over-perceive their own attractiveness, yeah, probably for, you know, just to give the TL;DR version—confidence, and so you don't miss opportunities.

But sure, please, you can. I I've spoken for quite some time, as much time as you want to respond. There's there's one main thing that I want to get at in in all that, which is that what you said is that uh attractiveness is—it's perceived, and that's what attractiveness is: it's how much people like you. And I'm trying to compare with the standard female delusion chart; I'm trying to compare objectively measurable things like the the fitness of your body or the the uh uh, you know, symmetry of your face with the perception. So there are there are things about bodies that are perceived as attractive and less attractive, and then there is the way that society is going, which I think is changing the way that people perceive—like, I don't think that perceptions are static throughout time. I think it's I think that if you if you take um a bunch of men that are tens, right, and you put them just on an island with a bunch of random women, the women will evaluate those male tens to be another one-to-ten, you know, hierarchy. I think that they're evaluating attractiveness compared to what they are exposed to. And so do you think that—do you think that—I disagree with what you're saying right now. I guess I I guess I'm not totally sure. Yeah, I don't I I think, as I said, attraction is in perception, yeah, and so a lot of things are going to alter perception, right? Now I think, and we'll talk about this when we get to the hypergamy section. Yeah, I think we have some disagreements as to what's causing—maybe, you know, let's say—I think that you have a perception that standards have been inflated grossly, yes, and I I think that I think that we'll find some things to disagree about there.

Sure. Um, but maybe I'll tell you what I mean. I was thinking that maybe we'd talk about female infidelity next.

I'm happy to go straight into hypergamy if you want.

Sure. I I do want to—and I again I don't have the—can you check that the audience has the benefit of seeing, because I actually I can't see anything right now. I'm seeing I'm seeing a cartoon that says "beards." You guys see—

Yeah, I think I think that I think we're doing good. They've been seeing the—they're respond—they're respond—they're responding as normal. Yeah. So yeah, before we before we move on to the next thing, I just want to talk about how there is, you know, there's there's like the the the actual object—I'm going to switch off of my chart; I've got too many things to juggle—so there's the actual object that's being seen, and then there's the seer of the object, and the the conditions that are surrounding the the seer are going to, you know, influence the perception. So the the conditions—yeah. So when I when I refer to this as delusion humorously, because I don't I don't think it's necessarily delusion, although there have been a lot of cases—why not call it—why not call it just the the female perceptions of attractiveness chart? Why do you have—not hilarious—CU—I want I want to hit people in the funny bone. I I don't think it's hitting a lot of women in the funny bone. I know that I'm gonna get a lot of—a lot of [ __ ], but it's it's frankly—it's like I do agree that that many women are turned off by it, but the ones that do get it and and agree with me about what I'm saying are the ones I want to talk to. And I think I do have to kind of soften up at some point and rebrand a little because I do want to get to those women; I do want to have them in my audience, but I for the moment I'm enjoying being kind of rude, and it's like calling it delusional—it's a funny way of, I think, alleviating pressure on men who feel uh, you know, rejected by the dating market by saying, "Hey, women have got these phones, and they're no longer viewing you as viable because their conditions are—you know, they've got all these men who want to have sex with them, and they think that they almost got married and they didn't. And so the delusion is thinking that these are viable options when they're not," which is changing the perception. You're making—you're making fun of it as a way of comforting men about not being attractive.

Yeah, and and also about pointing to the the actual circumstances of women's standards have changed because of technology.

Well, that's that's something that's something that I want to talk about next, I guess.

Um, okay, so let's—so you know, I I'm definitely willing to bend over backwards to give you the benefit of the doubt, mainly because, you know, uh we've spoken privately, and you you know often say things that are are are very nice and wholesome, and I think, "Oh, he actually, you know, he wants the world to not suck," right? That is—and the reality—the reality of your situation is—right, I'm I'm coming in here maybe naively and trying—what I see here, just with your content in general, is that you're either going to become a positive influence or you're going to become king of the incels. Yeah. Okay. And I I I genuinely don't know what what the [ __ ] going to happen with you, and I'm coming in here with both hands and trying to grab the steering wheel and push it towards something positive. And frankly, I think that—look, I recognize that when you made the female delusion chart, you were speaking to, you know, a couple thousand people, and it probably didn't feel like a big deal, but now you're speaking to millions of people, hundreds of thousands of people. I'm sure that your reach has hit millions. Yeah. And so it's like, okay, what you say now has an impact on culture, on the on the general culture, yeah, on the general dating culture. And so if you tell hundreds of thousands of women that they're delusional for having the most normal preferences ever, right? And also another another thing we we should have spoken about is that the long-term preferences of men and women are—I mean, you're actually more generous than me; I still think women are pickier for long-term mating, but you say that you know they they match up, right? More so—more so is what I mean—they match up more so.

Yeah, I mean, you show it as as dead even. I think that that was you throwing everyone a bone. Um, just I think that men men still have to compete harder than women for mates, even in a long-term context, and that's illustrated by a variety of data.

What what's on the screen right now? What are people seeing?

Um, I think that they're just seeing us side by side—us side by side. How about we—how do you feel—feel about uh—so I I guess, you know, how I feel about the the female delusion thing—I think that you know it's fine to talk about these data, it's fine to make jokes, but I think that you know framing it as delusion, it's going to lead a lot of these incel types to be like, "Oh, women are delusional for not wanting me," instead of thinking, "Oh, actually, you know, I have to change some things about myself if I want to get into that, and maybe I can't change those things, and so I just have to stick to long-term dating." So I do want to I do want to talk sort of philosophically about the effects of that. I think that what you're—what the way the angle that you're coming at this right now, where the the sense of humor that I'm bringing uh has has a tendency—or not a tendency but a a capability—possibility of um making people feel even worse about the situation. I think it would be a really good idea to investigate whether or not that's true, because in my personal experience, like I've been all over the chart; I have been all the way up and down uh this this whole thing. I—when I lost weight and you know got in shape and started developing some confidence and liking myself, I I say that I moved from a four to an eight; girls started telling me that I was an eight. Some girls have told me that I was a ten; they were just in in the middle of being interested in me at the time, you know, that's like love goggles or whatever, but I made a I made a really big uh uh, you know, shift. I've been all over; I've been in the top, the middle, and the bottom, and when I was in the bottom, the one thing that relieved the most pressure for me was people who were not in the bottom laughing with me about the situation—like, "Hey, this is how things go, this is how people are, this is the way that women act, and this is how they see you"—and being able to laugh about it made me more able to admit it. I think that being quiet about these things and saying, "Well, let's find the right words for it, and let's treat it gently"—for sure—calling it delusion is turning women off. My uh my audience has shifted away from being a third women to less; it it has gone lower recently, and um I do want to get them back, and I am going to have to change my language for that, but I also need to be ridiculous to let people know, like, "Hey, man, it's the world that is silly; it's the world that is like understood." I mean, I take issue with the specific word "delusion," but I also recognize that I am uh I'm one of the least funny people ever to ever to emerge on Earth. Yeah. And so you know, I I I I I I don't want to be—have qualities—I don't want to be—yeah, sure. I don't want to be uh I don't want to be fact-checking—I don't want to be fact-checking a comedian, but can you actually pull up the—let's—I think I think now is the time to talk about hypergamy, because we've we've talked about our disagreements enough, and I think we can go stra—if you're comfortable—yeah, we can go to the—so let's—so let's show the—let's show the chart. Can everyone—can everyone see it? What's happening here? I will zoom in on mine. Uh, let's go to the—so are people—I want people seeing—I want people seeing the—all right, they're seeing it. So so they're seeing that men pursuing women—it's it's kind of, you know, all over the place; women pursuing men in an unfamiliar context, which is important—they tend to pursue up um in a short-term context. I think we'd agree that it's basically a looks game, right?

Yeah.

Um, and you and I—so if we're talking about short-term dating, let's talk about the women pursuing men. If you're talking about short-term dating, this is true, yeah, that about a third of men just can't be involved, yeah, right? That's that's not going to happen. Yeah. Um, and that's consistent with—there there's some actual data here; I'm not I'm not speaking from personal experience when I'm speaking—it's it's really is just me looking at numbers. I'm surprised by the numb—very satisfying for me because this was this was just my feeling, and it's roughly true. Yeah, it's roughly true. I think it's um I think it's about 30% of young men—so we're talking about young men, obviously—that's those are the people who are involved in short-term mating. I think it's about 30% of young men haven't had sex in one year, and I think that that's a pretty good way of quantifying that it's like, "Oh, they're just excluded," right? Um, they might have, you know, they might have—they might occasionally have sex, but if you're not having sex for a year, I would say that you're excluded from the mating market. Um, now half of those men say they're not looking, and it's genuinely hard to know—it's genuinely hard to know what to make of that, right? Uh, we'll talk about the—we'll talk about the not-people thing—you know, I hate that—I know—I know I'm teasing.

Yeah, you see you're trying to aggravate me—trying to make me lose my temper.

Um, but if you move that for just a second, the um this this is this is true in the sense that—but it's—but I I'll I'll make two points of it, and then I'll let you say whatever you want to say about it.

Sure.

Um, one—and this is something we discuss privately—this women-pursuing-men side of things—it's just about—it's just as much about men's psychology as women's psychology—of course. Very permissive for short term, yeah, because if men didn't lower their standards for short-term dating, yeah, then this graph wouldn't look like this, right?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. Men do lower their standards for short-term mating; this is something that that we we've discussed. Yeah. Um, and if—and so the flip side is, right, if women lowered their standards for short-term mating, right—you always talk about this graph, but you always focus on women—it's like, "Oh, women have these standards, women do this, women want this," right? But really, it's a facet of men, because if women lowered their standards for short-term mating, right—like, if you could die out—

Well, yeah—well, think about—think about—think about the most attractive female celebrities; imagine if they had male groupies the same way male celebrities had male groupies.

Yeah, absolutely. Men would—men would absolutely show up for the short-term encounters, but women just—women on average don't lower their standards for short-term mating in the same way men, right? So my issue with this graph isn't so much the reality of it. I will say that a lot of people get—quote, quote—and again, talking about the Power Ranger colors—a lot of people talk about um, you know, getting blackpilled by this—long-term dating—long-term dating does not look like this. Um, it's still kind of—it's still kind of harsh, but about 80% of people who want to get in relationships can get in them, right? Um, so it's it's it's less—it's less severe, but it's still, you know, mate competition is still hard. Yeah. But this is just the issue that I have is that you talk about this graph—I've I've I've really bent over backwards to try and give you the benefit of the benefit of the Dow, and it seems that you think it's women's fault or or you just never talk about it being men, when really it takes two to tango. The mating market couldn't look like this if it weren't for guys who are super hot lowering their standards every time they go to the club.

You're right that I—you're right that it is responsible—more responsible—to to demonstrate that it's both—like, I I feel like I am demonstrating that it's both by bringing this up—like that men will do this—men—men have a whole section on my chart for women that we don't want anyone to know about—under the rug—and I feel like I am communicating that men shouldn't do this and shouldn't do this unless the women know and agree, but you know there's this whole phenomenon going on where women will—as we like we spoke about—they'll jump in here in hopes that they'll graduate later, and it doesn't usually work.

Are people seeing the zones chart?

Oh, sure. Oh—oh, you mean right now or in general? The the the people who are watching—I make sure—let me—okay, there it is. Yeah, because because I'm I'm seeing I'm seeing what your hands are doing, and I I I don't know—I don't know that everyone is tracking this. Yeah, okay, on it. So yeah, what I'm talking about is that that you know I I have pointed out that men will accept short-term sex from women that they don't want to. So you talk about it in this context, but then when you talk about the problems of the mating market, you almost exclusively blame women.

Well, I don't know if I blame the—right—I I think I think that people can go back and watch your content, and I think that they would agree that "blame" is the right word—it's it's, you know, "women have these preferences, women have these standards, not men—drop their standards, men do these things." I mean, I have I have certainly made videos about being disappointed with men's choices to do that. I don't know if you've seen them.

Yeah. Can I be—can I be 100% honest with you?

Sure. I think that you're comfortable—and this might be too personal, and we can just—we can just—we can just move on.

That's okay. I'm happy to hear it. I'm fine with—I think that your—so if you go back to the hypergamy chart, yes, I think that you've been one of these—I mean, I don't know—I don't know what you look like; nobody knows what you look like—but I'm assuming you've been one of these, you know, one of these sixes, let's say—I have no idea—dating down, right, for short-term encounters. And so it makes you uncomfortable to realize that the problems with the mating market you're pointing out are partially because of guys like you doing that, and it's much more comfortable to say, "Oh, it's women's fault, oh, it's women's fault, oh, it's women's fault"—it's much less comfortable to say, "Oh, actually, it's everybody's fault if it's a problem," right? And I'm one of the—I'm one of the culprits; I'm one of the problems. That's much less comfortable.

Well, I'm happy to say all of that, which I do—I do say all the time. I mean, I I don't I don't expect you to have seen 100% of my content, and that's not something that I say as often as—like my motivations in general are that I am—I'm a, you know, a guy who—I'm roughly average—at a certain point—women told me I was very good-looking—and I haven't gotten very much in terms of long-term satisfying relationships out of the market, and I think it's because our society's really messed up, and the only thing that I can do is point out what I know, and what I know best is how women treat me, and it doesn't mean that I don't—I say all the time—I made a video very recently where I I said that I advise men not to do this; I advise men not to put women in the sleeper zone. And also, I have never missed an opportunity to do it; I do it every time I—I can't—I can't control myself—like, women will show up and say, "I want to be with you," and I will tell them, "You're not—it's not going to last," and they'll go, "Oh, yeah, want to bet?" And then they end up here, and then we both cry five months later—like, it's—yeah, I've—I've seen that.

Okay, so go back to the hypergamy chart. Yeah, if you could—so one thing—so so so so I think we've—I think we fleshed out our—our—that for long-term dating, it's not this bad—it's still, you know, it's still tough, of course. I should make—I should make a long-term—short—no, but but you know a lot of people—and this is another thing that I just want to point out because I can't see the comments, but I know—I just—I've I've done these debates before—I know all you guys are are probably whining—blue pill whining—simp—I I don't I don't know of anyone else who's who's willing to acknowledge that there's some dating up in this context—who's, you know, who's accused of being blue—whatever—anyway, there is a little bit of that in the comments.

Yeah, a little bit.

I'm just I'm just flagging that that maybe open your mind—the idea that the reason I'm disagreeing here isn't because I'm biased—so I'm willing to acknowledge that, yes, about a third of men are not going to enjoy short-term mating, right, that they're not going to have access to it, and it's because it's going to be because of things that are partially out of their control, right? I mean, a lot of men can get jacked, and that will—that will change—change their life, right? That's that's certainly an option, but I also recognize that—look—

Yeah, exactly.

I also recognize though that, you know, and I think that some men would be surprised how much getting jacked—getting fit—you know, whitening your teeth, fixing your hair—all that stuff—it is surprising how much of a glow-up can do, even if it really is—

Yeah, yeah.

Even if you're short, right? I have no idea how tall you are, but you know, even if you're even if you're not tall, let's just say that it can be surprising how easy it is to get to a four or five, and once you're there—well, now short-term mating is maybe an option, but I'll agree that you know for some of those guys in the bottom third, it's it's genuinely out of their control, and that's that's genuinely unfortunate, but I would say that for a larg—of them—they're not—ly excluded because they can still, you know, fall in love, get a girlfriend—all those things. I know nobody wants to hear, you know, the good news, but there is good news to be talked about. That's number one, right?

Yeah. The number—the number two thing that we disagree on, right? And I actually don't know that we disagree on number one. Number two—and this is an area—an are—that might be—just before we get too far off of it—my next video that I've been telling people about for like two months—it—it—I'm calling it "self-maximize," and it's it's one of those things that's going to take me a while to work on, but it's about what men can do—I can't speak and write at the same time—it's it's going to be about what people can do—men and women, but mostly men, because I think men can make more of a difference in their attractiveness—what you can do in order to be the most that you possibly can be so that women like you—which is why I want the—I mean, I don't like the word "incel"—I don't want to call my fans incels, but anybody of that—I'm not saying—I'm not saying your fans—

Are you saying that based on going through your comment section, you have a portion of men who I would call, who I would call incel adjacent? Right. And this is another thing that's so important: is that you know those guys are not going to listen to me; they hate me, right? They take one—they frankly, right—they take one look at my, my canful tilt, or or whatever, and and they say, "you know what, this guy, I just can't, I just can't relate to him. He's not gonna give me any advice; he's not gonna get it from my angle."

Yeah, exactly. You really have an ability to influence these guys, and their lives can either be really good or really bad. And that's one of the reasons that, I mean, these guys have a very high suicide rate—um, a higher, a surprisingly high, but not as high as the media would make you think—um, rates of, you know, misogyny, violence, bitterness, these things. Yeah. And so it's like, if these guys get better, the world gets better; if these guys get worse, we are so screwed. One of my, one of my two major focuses of… yeah. So that's one of the reasons why I'm, why I've, why I've jumped in the car and I'm trying to, trying to grab onto the wheel here. And you've been very polite and and you know, not yelling at me while I'm doing that. So the, the second, the second point, right, the second point is that I believe that if this is a problem, it's a problem of men's behavior as much as women's preferences. And that's illustrated by the fact that if the graph, if the graph changed, right, um, if, if men, men's preferences mimicked women's preferences, you know, it would look like uh, if women's preferences mimicked men's preferences, right, you said this—priv—I'm quoting you; I don't know if you're okay with this—but it would look like a black, a black grid, right? It, it just be a black like rectangle, tell you that it is, it is both sides participating.

Now the third thing, and this is very important, and this is very depressing, right? This is, this is something that's not necess… if you go back to the hypergamy chart, something that's very depressing, right? It's not something that people like to think about, um, and also should illustrate again that I'm not someone who just likes comfortable truths, right? That's the accusation—is that the whole idea, blue pill, the whole idea of the blue pill is that I like comforting truths. I've said some very uncomfortable things in this conversation, and I'm about to say another one: this graph, this isn't the result, this isn't the result of dating apps; this is what human mating looks like, and usually it looks worse, worse than this. Yeah. So there's some genetic evidence, right? So if we were, if we were elephant…

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

If we were elephant seals, then this graph would literally be, you'd have to go one through…

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

And it would be one at the top and literally all of the females going to that one with the occasional interloper, the occasional female. So and with humans, with humans, thank God every day that we're not elephant seals, it would be a lot worse, but it's not dating apps that that's made it, it mating, frankly, from a Global Perspective. People say, "oh, dating is harder than ever," people say, "oh, dating is harder than ever," and it's like, "bro, you haven't dated in any other period in time," like it's just like… so… yeah. Let me, let me see if I can zoom in on that. So 8,000 years ago… wait, let me just, let me just make, make one quick point. So we have, we have to give you an idea—different scientists have different opinions on this—but based on genetic evidence, it's relatively reasonable to say it's, it's 100% a fact that we have more female ancestors than male ancestors.

Yeah.

There was the one to 17 thing.

Exactly. 8,000 years ago, for a brief period, yeah, it was 1 to 17. Yeah, so one male reproduced for every 17 females. Now that could have been due to a high male death rate; it's not necessarily the same as dating, but there has to be some multiple mating happening there. Yeah, selective pressures elim… no, there were no dating apps 8,000 years ago. Okay. And we have more female ancestors than male ancestors, and most people will say that it's about a two to one ratio, which means that, which means that half of men are reproducing with most of women. And that means that, that means that today our mating market—it might be hard; I'm not saying that it's not, I'm not saying that it's not hard—but it's actually easier than usual, and that's, that's an uncomfortable truth. It's like, "oh, not only am I having a hard time dating, but it's easier than ever." That's, that's an actual red pill, something that's actually tough to swallow.

I agree that the time we're living in now is a lot more comfortable than raw nature, like elephant seal. My concern specifically with how it's being changed, and I mean, I, I want to ask just, just very briefly, like as close to yes or no as we can get: do you think that this is, this is getting more concentrated because of technology? Do you think that their preferences are getting more concentrated towards the top?

Oh, can you hear me? Sorry, I think I got muted.

Yeah, did it, did it, did we go out?

Yeah. So okay, so, so it looks like I'm here, I think, um, relative to 20 years ago, and there other people who be have more expertise on this, yeah, in a short-term mating context, relative to 20 years ago, yeah, probably. It seems that young male virginity is on the rise, right? There's some skeptics here, um, also… wait, I think that, I think that my mic has actually changed. I think so.

Yeah, you're, you're a little echo, we can hear you.

Yeah, I've had to, I've had to rig this… do you mind if I just take like a minute to try and fix this?

Sure, I'll just, uh, I'll draw some more beard, beard guys. We're having technical [Music] difficulties. I should rig up some music, technical difficulties, like elevator [Music] music. Okay, can you hear me now?

Yes.

Do I sound normal?

Yeah, I think that that's better.

You think it's better?

Okay, I think that's the better microphone.

Yeah, oh, it's the better microphone, I think so. It, it seems like it is, it says it is. Okay, I'm sorry about that, folks. So I would say that maybe, maybe the mating market, I mean, there's, there's, there's some skeptics here, right? There are some people who disagree, and these are people who—this isn't my area—like, I, I, I research infidelity and mating effort, so this isn't really my area, and I recognize that there are people who are a lot smarter than me who study this a lot harder and who say that it's actually not getting more difficult. So wait a minute, I'm sorry, can I just clarify that there are people who are studying it specifically who say it's not getting worse?

Yes.

But there are also people who are studying it specifically who say it is.

So this is something that we call, um, this is something that's called in the mating literature, yeah, uh, it's referred to as the mating crisis, right? And so there's one group that, there's kind of a skeptical take where you say, uh, it's kind of Corona virus, right? Like that's, that's, that's like the skeptical take is like, yeah, H, you know, people stayed indoors for two years, and uh, Gen Z, you know, drinks less alcohol, yeah, um, gets in less fights, does less drugs, it kind of makes sense that they'd also have less sex, right? Sure. So there's a skeptical take to be had on this, like, is it getting worse? And then there's the group that says, "no, actually, it is getting worse," it's, and it's getting worse for a few reasons, yeah. And you know, the folk psychology people, they'll generally say, oh, you know, it's, um, they'll say, oh, it's, it's, it's the dating apps, right? It's, and and I don't hear a lot about that in the literature, but logically it does make sense that if you're interested in short-term mating, it's easier than ever; it's easier than ever to find people, and and frankly, women will have an easier time finding people. I mean, we see this—there and high-value men—yeah, there's lower rates of… there it is true that there's lower rates of women not having sex in the past year, but it's surprisingly close; it's like a difference of, um, so about 20% of women haven't had sex in the past year, yeah, and about 30% of men. And we're talking about young people in America; it's be different. So the trends are that people are just not hanging out as much in general; men are getting hit harder. I don't, I don't know. I mean, the thing is, is that it's also, it's also one of those things where I don't want to get over my skis because the, the, the data isn't in yet, and it could be case that in 10 years it's an accepted fact that, "oh yeah, dating got a lot harder for young men during the 2020s," right, um, and then I just, you know, this recording gets played back and I look like an idiot, right?

Yeah.

So that's what I'm binging on. [Laughter]

Yes, my, my answer to this question of, "is, are things getting worse," is two part: part one, even if they are getting worse, they're not as bad as they've ever been.

That's right.

Not as bad as they've ever been, not even…

And then part two is, I don't know—that maybe they are getting worse, but again, if they are getting worse, they're not getting, they're not getting as bad. And also, and also just as a… I don't want to, I don't, you know, this is going to sound blue-pilled, and I know that I'm gonna get black for it, but it's also true. So it's kind of like, yeah, why, why am I getting so much hate for saying something true?

That's exactly…

Yeah, most people, most people are in relationships.

So you mean as a percentage of humanity, more than half are in relation… percentage of Americans… as a percentage of Americans, most people are in relationships. And then most people who are single say that they're not looking, right? So me, you know, if it's, if it's bad, if it's bad for you, and maybe this, maybe this isn't, maybe this is… I mean, again, it's the Power Ranger thing; I, I, I hate trying to sort everything… yeah, maybe this comes across—this is going to black-pill some people—but if you're having a tough time, that doesn't mean that everyone's having a tough time. No, most people are having a relationship; most people are in relationships. And even more than that, I, I, I just read a stat that, and this, this I'll have to double check, but I think most men over 15 in the US have at least one kid, right? So if you take all the people who are over—most of these people are going to be over 30 obviously—um, but, but overall, I mean, people are still, people are still doing what humans have always done: we're pair-bonding, and we are having kids, and it's going fine. And again, experience misleading here because for me it's like, I'm in a long-term relationship that I'm very, very happy with; she's just, she's the best, right? All my friends, um, you know, my close friends, they're in long-term relationships, and you know, they're, you know, in love and having a great time. I would say that my five closest friends are all in long relationships. And so my personal experience is like, God, there's, you know, there's this… people tend to hang out with people who, you know, birds of a feather flock together; people who aren't single tend to hang out with each other, of course. And so a lot of echo chamber stuff, yeah, there's a lot of echo chambers. So, so I'm trying to pull myself back from coming on here and sounding like Stephen—like everything is so… a comment someone made to me—that's the personal experience side of things for me—is that like, actually, my side of things is that, you know, yeah, the world is doing pretty well in mating market wise, and I recognize that that's biased, but then the data also does seem to back the idea that if things are going poorly, they're going poorly for a small group of people.

Yes.

But I think that can… so this is what I want to, this is like, like I said earlier, uh, I think in the first promo that I did, like five weeks ago for this, I said that I think that most of our disagreements are going to be perspective based, because I, I agree with most of what you said there, just not sort of the, the ramifications of it, the, the effects of it on the world. Because even if it's getting worse for a small number of people, you know, there's that principle—like it only takes 10% of a population to, to start a revolution. If there's, if there's an imbalance, even a small one, it can set off very large systemic effects. And what you said is that, you know, there was a point where only one out of 17 men had children, and the rest were dying or just being slaves or whatever—his horrible history thing we did—and that, uh, two times as many—like 80% of women and 40% of men—have reproduced over time. And yes, it's probably something like that.

Yeah.

I don't know the exact numbers, but probably something… this what I heard, I'm just going off what I heard.

So the point that I'm trying to make is that in a world where only one out of 17 men is having kids, we don't have electricity, we don't have grocery stores; the, the, the phenomenon of civilization comes from most men being happy enough to work, like… yes. And that's the problem is… so this is, this is something that now I'm very, I'm very curious actually, yeah, what percent… so, so right now I believe it's about 80% of people are in relationships of some kind, and most of the 20% aren't looking.

MH.

What numbers would make you happy?

I mean, it's like, look, we're, we're not going to get to a world where… I mean, this is like… I mean, I get it, I agree with you—more people in long-term relationships, you know, I'm a, I'm a, I'm, you know, quite traditional in my, in my worldview in the sense that I, I think that monogamy is wonderful, and that's, that's from a social perspective; there's a lot of evidence that it's good for society. Yeah, and it seems like that's still the norm. What numbers would make you happy? So it, it's again, it might be, it might be frustrating for you because you live your whole life by the numbers, like you're Science Guy—it's not numbers that would make me happy. What would make me happy is like a guy like me—I'm smart, lots of women have been attracted to me, I, uh, I went to college, I work really hard, like, you know, look at what I'm doing; I'm, I'm accomplishing a lot right now; I clearly am a capable person. I have not been able, with all my heart and soul, to find a, a meaningful lasting relationship. I've had women cheating on their boyfriends and husbands with me; I've had women cheat on me; I've had women pull the rug out from under me after just three months and go like, "I'm polyamorous now, or I always have been," or whatever. I don't want to see numbers; I want to stop having those experiences, and I want to stop talking to men who are having similar experiences. I, I don't want to, I don't want to be living in a cultural, social context where that's a common experience for us, and we're all sharing it and saying like, "what the hell is going on?" Everyone's polyamorous all of a sudden; everyone has like… there, there's… I don't think you would disagree that we have higher partner counts than we, we used to, and that it's a pretty big, pretty big shift.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, it defit… that's destructive to the social fabric.

It definitely is for, it definitely is for a small group. I also will say, just throwing it out here, yeah, um, I, I actually, I don't know your background; I'm going to be, I'm going to be very bold here, here, and I'm assuming that you're just going on—I'm assuming that you're, you know, middle class, probably slightly left-leaning, at least, you know, in principle, was raised left-leaning, now I don't… you're, you're from kind of the secular, educated, liberal, probably Caucasian… I mean, class of Americans.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't know… the… oh, and now I'm going to get people saying that I'm so woke.

Okay, cry, no, keep going.

So you're in this group that, you know, does have high partner counts, but I'll just open your mind to the idea that, you know, there's a lot of people living in, in America who have completely different… I mean, you can go to conservative, religious communities anytime you want, and the idea of, you know, being with more than three people in your life… yeah, you, you, you really saw the world, didn't you?

Yeah.

I always talk about Arkansas, like you never, never meet anyone from Arkansas because they all just know each other.

Yeah.

Yeah. And then the, and then also, you know, there's people who are, you know, living in conservative, um, immigrant communities, um, and it's just, it's just complete… there's a whole wide world out there. And so the partner counts, just to throw it out here, the partner counts—I would say that the average part—this is gonna, this is probably going to drop like a grenade, people thinking that I'm just proving that I'm the stupidest man on Earth—um, but, but I will say it because I do believe it.

Sure.

I say that the average partner count in America is somewhere around five, if we're looking at median.

Okay.

Um, and that sounds really low to a lot of people because a lot of you are in these very, you know, liberal, or at least liberal-adjacent, urban, Caucasian communities where partner counts are high… Li… but if you… yeah, if you step outside that bubble for a second and try to open your mind a little bit, you'll realize that America is a very big country with a lot of different cultures, of course. And, uh, and I would, I would say that it's low. Now the, the five number… people are saying, "where, where are you getting that from?" So that's from, uh, Census Data excluding virgins, which came up with a number where women had an average partner count of four.

This is self-report.

I know, self-report. I'm an idiot.

I'm an idiot for thinking self-reports have any value. I understand…

I'm not… so hard on yourself.

I know.

Yeah, the… but, but I also, I've, I've done these debates before, and I know all the critiques; I've heard them all before, um, and then men said six, right? I'd say that that… so men say they have an average, they have a partner count of six; women say they have a partner count of four. That sounds insanely low to a lot of people, um, and so I would say that that comes from… yeah, and I would say that from median specifically; the mean is a lot higher because some people sleep with hundreds of people, and zero is the floor, right? Yeah, there's, there's a couple of people out there with a thousand sex partners… ruin it for everyone.

Yeah.

Exactly. Exactly.

Yeah, there's what we call in, in the data—this is known as the promiscuous 5% or the promiscuous 10%, depending on who you're speaking to, um, yeah, and that's kind of who, kind of who I'm targeting in a certain way. Yeah. So I would say that, you know, partner counts have definitely gone up, um, but they haven't been, uh, you know, and there's, um, you know, there's a lot of the things that I, that I, I've said here, um, I should just flag, um, a lot of it, a lot of it is really well summarized on, uh, datpsychology.com. There's a graduate student who is just writing these incredible blog posts that's toed pill, black pill ideas—I don't know—he gets the, but you know, collects Inc amounts of literature on red pill and black pill ideas and just kind of is like, "well, does this line up," um, it's one of the most heroic science communication efforts ever, and, uh, you know, it's taught me quite a lot, uh, and he's a straight shooter. So that's, that's somewhere to go. But the partner count data—this is, this is, you know, this is something that can be examined, and it is higher than it was, but it's also much lower than I'd say that most of your comment section thinks…

I'm sorry, say that again.

It's higher than it was, but lower…

So the partner count is growing, but still the average partner count is not like 15 or 20.

Yeah.

People think it's, people tend to think… people tend to think… I was just speaking to someone actually yesterday who said that their guess was like 20s something. I was like, "wake up," that's, that's… yeah, that's someone who's living in a certain culture. So I, I agree with you about that. I'm trying to illustrate here—I'm not sure, sure if I'm doing a great job—but I'm trying to illustrate how that one segment that you're talking about, um, I, I'm just trying to do a little pie chart there, but that one segment that you're talking about, and and if they're experiencing an imbalance where, where they're having all this sexual behavior, it's not really just confined to their lives; they… I wish I could, I wish I had my aqual chart; I'll just draw it, um, do you, did you, were you following that at all, the aqual, the, the quadrants? Let's draw the quadrants; were you, um, familiar with what I'm talking about there?

I, I think I will be.

I've, I've done, I've definitely done way too much consumption of HTH content.

Yeah, the algorithm… the algorithm thinks I… you, you're my, you're my natural Nemesis, and the algorithm thinks you're my biggest fan. Yes, every, every time I open up my phone, I get my entire feed is home math because I've just been preparing for this debate because I don't want to misrepresent you. But yeah, um, so… oh, the quadrants, yeah, yeah, I know exactly what I'm talking… so you've got the interior and the exterior views, and, um, and you have the, uh, individual and the collective. So this would be, you know, your mind, your culture, uh, your body and the St… your job and your just measurable things about you, and then your society and like how, you know, what's the GDP, basically, and that, that sort of thing, um, I think that what you're talking about is, you know, there's been a change in individual minds, and there's been a change in culture that is leading to people having higher body counts, and that is having effects on society, like the reason that they have these things, uh, you know, put together like this is because nothing can happen in just one; it's going to influence everything else around it. So even if it is a small subset of people in, in the culture, in the society who are doing this, it's so out of balance that other people are being affected by… like imagine falling in love with someone, finding out that they have a partner count of like 4, 500, and that, and that that's not a rare thing. It's kind of like how, uh, the, the world's fattest man used to be kind of like, uh, you know, someone you see every day now.

Yeah.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. I guess another thing that I'll just throw out there is that the effect of this—this is one of the most peculiar statistical facts that I know, but it is, the math does work, and again, your last name is Math, so I'm, I'm happy to discuss it—is that the average person you sleep with will have a higher body count than you.

Oh.

Because, because they're going to get… because if you're exposed to them, right, the odds of you being exposed to them are increased, right, by the fact that they're seeing more people.

Yeah.

And the same phenomenon, the average person, you know, the average person who you're friends with has more friends than you, on average, right? Again, I'm saying the word "average" over and over again; it's for the same reason—it's because, you know, most people who have friends have more friends, um… so yeah, you're right that people—this is gonna… a lot of people are going to get exposed to the fact that people of higher partner counts, and I'm also not someone who denies that higher partner counts have some negative, have some negative… I will note that those negative outcomes, and you haven't disagreed with me on this, but the other… you know, I don't know if you…

Even go by the "I don't even know if you answer to the name red pill," certainly others would label you that way. I, I love the original meaning of it from *The Matrix*, which is "face the truth no matter how painful it is," but it's become a kind of like "man good, woman bad" thing, and I just can't get behind it.

Yeah, understood. Understood. Okay, do you want to… hm, should we… I'm trying to think what's what's natural to talk about next because I don't want to… I don't want to stall out. Do you wanna… if you don't… if you don't have anything more to say about the… do you have more to say about the internal/exterior thing? Because you were quite clear in explaining what you meant, but you're welcome there. I just wanted to just sort of make the point that, you know, whether these things are, you know, everybody or just a few people, or or whatever, I think that… I think that it's pretty undeniable that we're all feeling the effects of rapid social change, and that a lot of people are feeling lonely and afraid. And, you know, uh, people are more isolated than ever, and this is measurable. They… they measure things like selling decks of cards, and people are not hanging out with each other anymore. And um, I think it's… it's being caused by… like what it's being caused by is a… an information flow that is making people feel like these things are normalized. It's normalization of certain kinds of behavior. So whether or not you're living that kind of life, you're seeing other people doing it; it's happening right near you. You're feeling… personally, I just moved away from the city, and I've been living in the woods for a year and a half because I can't stand people anymore. And it's not because I'm letting these people into my life necessarily, it's just that being around them makes me feel like there isn't any place to be in society anymore. So those… those psychological, social pressures that we're experiencing from this stuff… I think that the best… like the reason that I use words like "delusion," and the… and the reason that I'm so like rude and harsh about it is because I think if we don't change back to a more… even… even if it's just a small population… if we don't start disallowing that again, like we used to, then we might, you know, end up in a world where we just don't have enough men who are happy enough to do the work. Like there's nobody going into the sewers anymore.

Yeah, I understand. Okay, so what is… so let's… let's spend another minute on the hypergamy thing. Yeah, and I just want to listen to you. I don't… I don't really have anything more to say about it. I think… I think I've been very clear as to what… you know, what I agree with and what… what I find… what I find very… and I do get it, and I… I… I do want to… I do want to, you know, keep talking to you more in the future and figure out how to… how to better address who I want to address and how. But the… yeah, so this… this "women pursuing men," let's… let's focus on that. You… you view this as an issue, and you view it as an issue that's probably getting worse; certainly getting worse for a small cohort of men, and I think we'd agree that it's… it's bad for a cohort of men. What's the solution? What… what's the solution here?

I… I… I don't have any ground to stand on to provide a solution. I can imagine things; it's algorithms causing it, and I think that algorithms can stop it. So in China, TikTok doesn't show kids, you know, dances and girls shaking their butts and explosions and like that. The ad that I made for this sex fight… like that… that's not allowed for children in China. In America and in many countries in the West, the media and the social media and everything is lowest common denominator. I wish I had my levels chart; I know it's in here somewhere, but it… it pushes people down to the… to the lower levels of thinking because you're constantly stimulated with these extreme stimuli. Um… see, I can find it. There we go, right there. You're constantly stimulated with just blasts of color in your face and… and um, you know, Jerry Springer kind of stuff; things that you wouldn't see in real life, and it gives you… it overloads your system so much that it doesn't let you spend any more time thinking up in the higher levels. And… and again with the quadrants like that, when you are being pushed down to lower levels, then society falls down to a lower level, and I think that that's what we see happening. Like we're… we're all talking about society degrading; people are saying… people say society falls apart; some people are joking, some people are half joking, and it's a direct result of what's going on in our minds. So when I'm addressing these things, when I'm attacking them, I'm trying to make people feel responsible for not spreading these messages and living these lives anymore. Like I have lived a very libertine life; I've been with many dozens of women. I should not have done that; it wasn't good for me; it didn't do anything good for my emotions. I broke a bunch of hearts; I got my heart broken a bunch of times. And now I'm living in circumstances where… like the only thing that I can think to do to save my… what's left of my life, or what was left of it before I became like overnight millionaire or whatever, is… is just go run into the woods and just go hide from the world because I'm tired of living these experiences over and over again. I… what I'm trying to do… what I'm attempting to do by sending these messages as crudely as I may be sending them at first, which I will… you know, I will definitely, you know, give you enough attention to… to hear, you know, what you think I should… like… I like working with you is what I'm saying. But the… the reason that I'm sending the messages in the first place is because I feel like we've got to put an emergency break on these social shifts that we've made because people are getting pushed to these lower levels of… of thinking all the time and reacting; they're seeing and reacting, seeing and reacting, seeing and reacting, and not really thinking about like what's going… going to be in my future. And there's a lot… you know, more and more men, although it might not be a critical level, but more and more men are getting caught down here with… like these guys a couple generations ago could be a construction worker and have three kids and… and raise them all comfortably, and now they're at home playing a video game for 20 years.

Yeah, I think… um… okay, so I'm… I'm gonna try to say this without sounding… without sounding like Steven Pinker and just saying that, you know, everything's all right and it's getting better. Yeah, I think my… and this is again… now and again we framed this as data versus personal experience, but my… your personal experience has led you to believe that society is in crisis.

Yeah, my personal experience, which I… I'll admit has been very lucky from a mating perspective, yeah, has led me to believe that not only is everything fine, but everything's awesome, and that that's probably misled. Right, I'm… I'm totally willing to accept that that my personal experience is misleading me, though. But I'm also… I'm also hoping that you might open your mind to the idea that one of the ways people cope with personal issues is by externalizing them to society and saying, oh, you know, there was a time… because the truth is, you know, like I… I used to work on… I used to work on job sites; I was a house painter. Yeah, you know those guys… you know, they had girlfriends; no issue. Like there are still those guys who are, you know, working manual labor jobs; they're not super high status; they've never been on a dating app; they literally met a girl at the pub, and it… the rest was history. That still happens. And we're not talking about… and frankly, we're not talking about guys who would have been construction workers when we're talking about incels. These guys have… and I'm talking statistically… I… I… I recognize that just because the… there's been this terrible memeification of the term "autism," right, so that it sounds like it's an insult. I'm not using it that way at all, but men… among men who struggle with women, the rates of undiagnosed and, in some cases, diagnosed autism, yeah, is spectacular. Like it's just unbelievable how high it is. These are not the macho family men who would have been construction workers and had three kids; these are the men who, you know, would have… would have had trouble in any…

Do you have any opinions on why there's an increase in that? Because there's been unequivocally an increase in autism, right?

Yeah, yeah, that actually… that is interesting. I have no idea why. It is interesting, isn't it? That's still not my area. And you'll notice that I'm very comfortable saying "I don't know" whenever a topic comes up that I know nothing about. This is a topic that I know nothing about; I'm not going to talk about the… the rates of autism. I will note though that… well, let's… I mean, we can… we can… we can… we can think about this more. I think… I want to note that that's like a large segment of the people that appreciate me is that I tend towards… like people call me autistic all the time. I joke about it; I have the blue hat, you know, "please be patient, I have autism," uh… and… and the way that I explain things… like I fought my way through getting experience, and I'm saying, like, "Hey, here's how people work," and they're very appreciative of that. So just wanted to…

Yeah, and… and you know… and this is the thing is that, you know, if you were one of my students, the… the… the 8th-grade range would be everywhere from, "Oh, A+! What a… what a wonderful assignment!" to, "Oh my god, get the hell out of my classroom! What did you just say?"

Yeah, right. And some of your content… right… like… what… like… I… I told you privately the video about, you know, when it's socially appropriate to approach women, right? Yeah, a lot of men… like myself… have literally never thought of that. It's always been gut instinct; it's like, "Maybe now? Maybe not? Maybe this is acceptable? Maybe not? I have no idea." Um… you know, I… I met my… I met my girlfriend, who… who I've been… who I've been seeing for a couple years now, in the wild; just walked up to her. Um… I… you know, that's… that still happens, and I have no idea when it's appropriate or when it's not. Um… but your video where it was like very systematizing, laying out rules… my first thought was when I watched it, I was like, "Oh, this is going to be helpful for men who have autism," and then I go to the comment section, and sure enough, there's like six comments saying, "Hey, I have autism; I have autism, and this helped."

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's… that's cool. And it is… it is… and this is another thing is that I see… I… I have no idea whether you're gonna… you know, some of your content comes across as just bitter misogyny that could make things worse, and some of it comes across as, you know, frankly, you know, helpful and positive and aiming towards, you know, a future where some of these threes… I mean, maybe the ones and twos, there's not much to be done, but there's not many of them either.

Yeah, yeah. Can… can we… maybe… move to… we should move to a new topic. Yeah, we've been on it for too long. Um… I… I wanted to… I had a thought there that I kind of dropped out of my head. I wanted to…

Well, if you come back to it… that… that… that's totally…

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just… just really quick. Um… I… I think that I like doing a little bit of both. Like I like to treat it with levity and… and say things that are not entirely serious and demonstrate that I am bitter because it's relatable. Like my numbers are blowing up, and it's because people can relate to me, and it's not just men. Like I make videos that women… 1.7 million women watch it too, and it's because I feel what they're feeling, and I say it. So that's part of what I do. And then another part of what I do is like, "Hey, here's actually what's going on; it's not just feelings, but here's actually what's going on." And I think that when I say things in that bitter way, you're kind of like… you're doing some damage there, but I feel like what I'm doing is reeling people in so that I can show them, "Here's how you get better."

Interesting. Okay, well, let's… let's… should we talk about… we've got one thing we talk about… do you want to talk about… I feel like we could go either way. I'm happy to talk about rates of female infidelity. It feels kind of disjointed from the conversation. I… we can just… we can… we can… let's do paternity fraud first and female infidelity. I genuinely don't understand how science can know who cheats more. Can you explain that?

Yeah, well, it's not a… no thing. I mean, this is something that people misinterpret about science. So let's… let's talk about what science is. Yeah, science is… so… so data, right? So let's talk about data first. Data is collections of personal experiences in these cases, right? So there's… people have this dichotomy and the hype for this debate of like personal experience versus data, and there is a difference because some data is not personal experience, and some personal experience can't be quantitatively captured by data. But good data, in a lot of cases, is just collections of personal experiences, right?

Yeah, yeah. And science… certainly the type of science that I do, right, the type of research that I'm actively involved in, it's making predictions about data before you see the numbers. Yeah, so you say, "I'm about to collect this data, and I… and because I have this worldview, I think that this is going to be shown out in it," and then when you make that prediction accurately, it's like, "Oh, your theory was… no, your theory seems strong. Let's do another test." You're pressure testing your own ideas.

Yeah, and you know, when it doesn't come out that way, then you're like, "Oh, maybe I was wrong, right? Maybe my theory was wrong. I have to revise things," right? Yeah, so a lot of people are skeptical of science; they view us as like these authoritarian, you know, egomaniacs.

Not true at all. You're saying it's real?

Yeah, yeah. We're pressure testing our own ideas constantly, and… and some of the most profound experiences of changing my mind as a man have been in the process of dealing with data and making predictions about it that turned out to be wrong. I was like, "I thought this was true about the world," and then I collected data, and the data told me I was wrong.

Y… so now let's talk about… let's talk about who's more likely to cheat: men or women. Yeah, first off, we just have to come at this from a predictive point of view, right? Mammals. Okay. Male mammals have more to gain from sexual variety than female mammals because male mammals can increase their offspring count through multiple mating in a way that women can't… in a way that female mammals can't. I'm just talking about mammals right now.

Yep.

So if we've got squirrels, right, a male squirrel… and I don't know how male squirrels… I actually… I don't know anything about squirrel mating systems, but in theory, a male squirrel can have three female squirrels pregnant at once with him, but a female squirrel, even if she has 20 boyfriend squirrels, only one at a time can only be pregnant with one of them at a time.

Yeah, right.

So her reproductive rate is limited, right? She can max out her reproductive rate with one male, and this is true of humans as well. This is true of humans as well. So the woman with the most children in history… and this is… this is disputed; it might be an apocryphal anecdote… 69 or something… I think it's accurate… is… um… Valentina. She was a Russian peasant; there were multiple accounts saying that she had lots of kids, and she kept going into her 50s.

Yeah, she had about 60 children.

Yeah, and she had all of them with one man. Right? So a woman can both theoretically and in practice maximize her reproductive output with one male.

Yes.

Her husband had more children than her because he had an affair.

Okay.

So the husband of the most prod… prodal woman in history… the most prolific… history… yeah, he outproduced her by having an affair. And this demonstrates the basic sex difference: men have more to gain from an evolutionary perspective, and male mammals generally have more to gain from having affairs. So right up front… right up front, we should be expecting men to cheat more than women because they have more to gain, right? Just from a strategic perspective, it's like that should be our prediction. And then you do these… you know… you know, across… you know, sexual studies… men do seem more interested in casual sex than women. Would you disagree with that? Um… is there… your personal experience disagree with that?

I would say… I would say average man versus average woman, I would say that a random man and a random woman, the man is going to be more interested in casual sex, but I would say that when… when you expose women to, like, a man they're genuinely attracted to, that it might be equal or higher.

Yeah, I… I frankly… I mean, that's from personal experience, but frankly, yeah, I… I agree with that.

Yeah, so… but… but it's still… but still the sex difference that's important is still there.

Yes.

So this is… this is the context that we're talking about with these data. Okay, so I… again, I can't see the comment section, so I have no idea if everybody's just completely not following me. I hope… I hope we're all still here. Are we still online?

Yeah, we're go… we're doing great.

Okay, good, good, good, good. So if everyone's following me… going into collecting this data… humans are… humans are male mammals, and we should really expect them to be more interested in multiple mating than female mammals, right? Espe… uncommitted multiple mating.

Sure.

And then you do the surveys, right? Well, I… I… I want to put kind of a finer point on that, but I… I don't… I don't know if this is the right time to interrupt. How about… how about I walk through all of it, and then you can pick it apart systematically, and we can go back through?

Let's do that.

Okay. Ahead. So… and then feel free to draw whatever… I won't feel like I'm being interrupted if you draw a counterpoint; that's totally fine. Um… so going into collecting this data, we have every reason to expect that men will cheat more, right? It would be surprising and confusing if we found that women cheat more. It would be like, "What? Why? Why is the… we're… we're a mammal. Why are the female mammals more interested in multiple mating than the male mammals?" Right? There are some… now this isn't true across mammals, right? But for our species… because we're a… to be clear, I'm oversimplifying, but because we're a pair-bonding, paternally invested species, we really would expect the males to be more interested. And then you do these… kind of… you know… you look at the… anecdotal evidence and it… the circumstantial evidence where it's like, "Oh, who's… you know… who's going on websites to look for affairs?" Right? You look at their user base; it's all men, right? It's… I think Ashley Madison or whatever the biggest one… I remember reading about this; it was like 200 women and like 100,000 men. I'm pulling that number out, but it was something insane. And it's like, "Oh, interesting. Yeah, men do seem more eager for affairs in that context." And then you look at consumption of things like pornography, and you see that it's like, "Oh, you know, both men and women consume porn, but undeniably, you know, men are… men are consuming more of it." And then you ask men about… and women about their fantasies, and you know, fantasy studies are… are always bewildering to me. I'm shocked by… by the diversity. Um… but we do see… right… we do see that men are more interested in multiple partners in the abstract, right? So a lot of the predictions that… that would come from… an evolutionary biology… you find… and then you look at the… of… in practice, right? And here is where… here's where I understand the criticisms, and I understand it's going to get controversial, but if you do a large study on who cheats more: men or women, right? You literally survey them; you're just… you know, anonymous survey: "Have you ever had an affair?" Right? Men will confess… this maybe this doesn't reflect actual practice, but at the very least you have to admit that men confess to having affairs about twice as much as women, depending on the study.

Okay.

50% more to twice as much, right? There are some casual online surveys that have found different results, but the real rigorous data on this… the… the stuff that's really tried to get a good answer… men confess more. And I'll speak as a scientist here as well… anecdotally… I had to collect data for an infidelity study; we were doing experimental work, and we needed people who had actually had affairs before, right? Yeah, it was much easier to get male participants than female participants, right? And then… anecdotally… or circumstantially… not anecdotally… circumstantially… much more women… about three times as many… when we asked them… these are women who had cheated… when we ask them, "Why did you cheat?" About three times as many compared to men say, "I cheated because he cheated first."

Right.

Three times as many women compared to men. Yeah, they were like, "Oh, he cheated first, so I had an affair; I was getting him back," right? So again, it's like we've got… we've got this… this… so in order to say that women are cheating as much as men or more than men, you have to make an argument… sounds like a passive stance… "Oh, I don't know," right? But it's actually an active stance; you're saying…

I think women lie more.

Yeah, and that's a pretty bold statement that needs some evidence, right? If you're going to say that half the species is more predisposed to lying about a topic, you really do need to… you need to at least make a point. So… and in order… so that… that's Point number one, right? So there's these surveys. Point number two is surveys on mate poachers. And here's where the "women lie more" really falls apart. Okay, right? If you ask people on the other side, "Have you ever home-wrecked successfully?" MH… you… you understand that term in this context?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a… mate choice copying. It's when a… when a woman… uh… pursues a man who is a…

Yeah.

When you… when you interview people about mate poaching, right? "Have you ever interloped or home-wrecked, as… as the casual parlons would have… have you ever stepped in on someone else's relationship?" Yeah, a lot more women say they succeeded than men. So both sexes try it a lot, but women succeed more than men. So if you're saying, right, that, "Oh, women just lie more," then they would have to… I mean, it's… it's kind of ridiculous because they would have to be more honest about home-wrecking and less honest about cheating.

I see.

Because if women are succeeding more in poaching, right, well, then that means that more men are cheating based on that data alone, unless the women are… unless the men are lying, right? So you would have to say men lie more about when they're the affair partner and women lie more about when they're having an affair, and I just think that that's just doing a back handspring to say women are worse.

I definitely… yeah, have a response to that. Yeah, it's just trying your best to find a way to say women are worse. And then the final point, and I'll just throw this out here because we already talked about it… yeah… if… let's just think mathematically… if half as many men reproduced as women throughout history… MH… just based on that… which sex do you think was having more affairs?

Right.

I'm… I… me… I'm getting a blank spot.

The men who were… the men who were in relationships… MH… were having twice as many partners as the women who were in relationships or they were in cultures where that was allowed.

Yeah, yes, exactly. Exactly. That's a very good point. Exactly. And now I will say… I will throw it out there that even though most cultures permit multiple mating by men, most people in those…

Cultures, I think 95%, 90 to 95 depending on the study, um, end up in monogamous relationships anyway. So I would personally have the inclination that that indicates infidelity, multiple mating, but other people would say, oh, it's it's, you know, it's polygyny. And there also are other people who would say, well, look, um, you there there are uh—oh, did we lose your sound? My mic's cut, one second. I have to—I have to do—okay, all right, technical difficulties. But you know, I've—I've more than made my point. I've more than made my point. You're welcome to say—I do—I do—yeah, I do want to get um directly to that: this idea that women would lie more in one context and less than another. What they—what both—both of those lies have in common that actually makes that—make sense is success.

So if a woman was cheating in her relationship, on her partner who she promised to be loyal to, that would be like admitting—that would be a loss of power for her because she's not supposed to get caught doing it. Uh, men, on the other hand, when they say, oh, I've cheated all the time, you know, men try to maximize their machismo and, I mate so much, women want me so much, I mated a lot. But but women have to downplay that to—in order to keep their value high in other people's eyes. When a woman says, I've successfully home—successfully home-wrecked, that increases her value in some people's eyes because, I can take whoever I want. Come off it! Listen to the word "home-wreck"—it's such a huge social stigma, that's like one of the worst things you can be as a woman. Sure, but there are women who are proud of it. Like there are—there are women with very low-quality morality. Please be realistic here. This back-and-spring—I think I'm—I think I'm being realistic about what happens. You think it's a positive thing to be a home-wrecker? Who—whoa, hang on, let me finish sentence. I think that—I think that in—in the deeper, lower levels of consciousness, in the dark corners of the human mind, women who successfully home-wreck are like, yeah, I got it, 'cause I'm better. And they—you don't think that—and you don't think that men—you don't think that men—you don't think that men—that they do—that they would feel good about being able to steal—I—it's the—it's the exact same thing, mate. I think it's roughly the exact same thing. But okay, if it's roughly the exact same—if it's roughly the exact same thing, why do women say they're more successful? Well, hang on a sec. If—if—if it's the exact same feeling, then why do women report more success at mate poaching than men? Yes. So women—so you say, hey, have you ever tried mate poaching? Oh, and B, everyone—okay, so basically everyone says—if you do a—I'll make the data very clear—if you do a study, and this is in the West—it actually changes in some cultures, but we're talking about the West—and you say, have you ever tried to steal someone's girl for a night or whatever, basically every man will say yes, and basically every woman will say yes, right? It's like 80%, huge numbers. But women get more—but then you ask, have you succeeded at that? Yeah, men—counter to what you just said about men playing it up—men report lower success numbers than women, to me, right? Because I don't have a—I don't have a bias here; there's no horse in this race. I don't care whether men or women cheat more; I just want to know the truth, right? Yes. I look at that and I just think, oh, okay, I guess um, if women are more successful in making men cheat, men probably cheat more. And then you go ask the men, and the men are like, yeah, we cheat more. So, case closed, as far as I'm concerned. Can I just point out an irony? Yeah, just really quickly, is that there's only two groups of people who think women cheat more than men, right? Because there's all this—I—I've literally—I've listed like—I've been very patient—I've listed like five pieces of evidence all pointing in one direction, and there's no evidence pointing the other way. Most people who are, you know, middle-minded, no biases, they say men probably cheat more. And that—that's my—the two groups of people who say women cheat more, right, are ultra-woke people who don't like there being any sex differences, right? They say, oh, it's fake data, da-da-da-da. And then ultra-misogynist people who just want women to be worse at everything and can't—and it's also—it's—I—I will say this—it's also a bit of a form of cope because a lot of these guys, they get cheated on, and it's comforting to be like, oh, all women cheat. And it's like, no, actually, red-pill harsh truth, most women don't cheat, they just cheat on you. Yeah, like it's—and that's—and that is a much harder truth to reckon with than accepting, you know, actually women cheat less than men.

Well, there are a lot of variables at play. You're bringing up a lot of variables all at once, and it's—what I do is I reduce them to, you know, the—the—the—the most simplest thing possible so that we can visualize it. What—when you're—you're talking about um, why would men who try to mate-poach—they like—men and women both report that they try—women report higher rates of success. I don't think that there's any difference between that and this because women are just much more likely to be accepted for short-term mating. Yes. Yes, exactly. And that's why men cheat more. Men cheat more—they cheat about twice as much. You—you would have to believe that women lie twice as much about cheating, and that men lie twice as much about succeeding at mate poaching, and that does—make any sense. Well, I mean, I think that does make sense given what we know about just the general psychology of men and women and how it—it just said—you just said everyone can re—everyone can rewind this recording—you just said men play up—you just said that men play up their sexual success until I gave you more information, and then you flipped. I don't think I flipped. I think—I think my—play up their sexual success except when they're mate poaching. Really? Well, there's too many variables at play. Where there's a lot of variables at play here. No, there's not—no, there's not. Sure, there are, because the—the—the way—did you try—M—here are the variables: did you try mate-poach? Yes. Did you—suck up their sexual success? And we—the sex difference in the other direction. Sure, it might—it might be that—and here's why I say there's too many variables—it might be that even if men are playing up their success, it's not enough to compensate for how much more successful the women are. Do you think—do you think that it's possible that you have a bias here where you're—because I feel like if—if all the data pointed in the other direction, right, if I came on this show and told you all the data showed that women cheat more than men, I think you'd be sitting there nodding. I think you'd say, oh—I think you say, oh, yeah, probably. I don't think—but because I'm saying that—because I'm saying that it's men—because I have all the evidence against men, you and all people in the comments are struggling with it. I understand why you say that, but I don't think I'm speaking with bias at all. I think—I think that I'm speaking like—I don't know what's going on. I don't think we can know what's going on, but from—from the perspective of what I do, which is getting into the deep psychology of it, the way that men and women would report their sexual indiscretions is going to be aligned with what makes their egos feel good, and it's—it's the way that lying happens is not going to be consistent about one thing in another thing. So men—so men who—you just said men want to play up their sexual success—they're lying by saying that they failed at home-wrecking, really? But maybe they—maybe they are playing it up and saying that they succeeded, but it isn't enough playing it up to—to—to compensate for how much more successful women are at it. There's too many variables. Successful. Yes. If women are more successful at mate poaching, then men cheat more. Do you understand that? I—I understand what you're saying. I don't understand the connection between—if women are more successful at mate poaching, it means men are more likely to cheat on their partners. Yes. Right, exactly. So because every—because every—every woman who's an affair partner is a mate poacher. Every woman who's an affair partner is a mate poacher. Yes. Should we call it a short-term mate poacher? A short-term mate poacher. Yes. And women have much more success with short-term mate poaching. That's a—that's an interesting—I'm trying to process that. Yeah, you might—that might be another thing that—I want to—point out an angle I hadn't thought of. Yeah. Yeah. And another thing that I want to point out—just—just maybe step back for a second and look at the graph that you drew yourself. Look at the—look at this. Who's cheating more on this graph? Who's cheating more here? Well, the men are—the men are—the men are having many—many partners. Assuming that this guy has a partner, he's cheating on—he's cheating on her with a lot of women. Exactly. Yes, exactly. And this is another thing that we see in the literature when we speak to people who admit to affairs, right? So it's like, hey, you say you had an affair, come talk to us. The men say, oh, I was cheating with this girl, I was cheating with that girl, I was cheating with this girl—having tons of affairs. You talk to the girl, it's usually like one guy. Yeah. So—so not only do men—not only do men cheat more than women, not only do men who have relationships cheat more than women, right? Mhm. But the men who cheat more—the men who cheat—cheat more. Another factor that—that—and this is another angle that maybe you haven't considered, yeah, is that when you look—when you ask a group of people—and this is where the lying thing doesn't—it just doesn't fit the narrative, right? All you guys want to say self-report lying—self-report lying, but you literally have to—it's like you have to be a contortionist to make that logic work. Another thing, if you do a survey, hey, who's single, right? You'll find that more men say they're single than women. So to me, right, it's a slight difference, right? It's—if you look at the general po—I believe it's in America right now, it's 34% to 28%, right? That tells me that, you know, 6% of men are saying they're single when there's a woman out there who says, actually, that's my boyfriend. Yeah. Yes, that's—that's the old Mitch Hedberg joke. Yeah. Yeah. So it's—it's—so I would say that, you know, I geez, I've said—I've said everything I can possibly say on this topic, and I genuinely don't understand why you're not convinced. It seems to me that you are uncomfortable with the idea that men cheat more, maybe because of personal experience. Not—I'm not—I would—I would be happy to admit it if I thought it—I hear everything that you're saying. What I'm—what I'm reporting to you about my—my—the way I'm processing it—it is—there's so many variables at play about whether the man is single or not, whether the woman is single or not, who's—where's the concentration of cheating? Because I think that you would agree that it's like the small number of men who are cheating many times on one woman, whereas the middle men don't have that—they're not getting mate-poached as much. Would you—you agree with that? Right. That's interesting. Well, we do see slight correlations—they're small—um, so we see that men who have broader shoulders tend to cheat more. Yeah, if they have more—yeah, desirable characteristics. And that seems to be—yeah. So it's kind of the old joke of like, men who can cheat do cheat, which isn't true, obviously. These are—we're talking about point two—it's generally true. Yeah. I mean, I—I actually don't even think it's—well, actually, I don't know. I mean, this might be my personal bias here. I would say that a good portion of men who—I would say the higher portion of men who can cheat do actually—what am I saying? Of course, this is true. Of course, this is true. A higher portion of men who can cheat do than men who would struggle to cheat. Obviously, I would agree with that 100%. So I actually don't—if anyone disagrees with that, they're stupid because that's—that's like a truism—it would have to be pretty difficult for that to be wrong. But what I'm trying to balance here that I'm not capable of doing—I'm certainly not capable of drawing it right now—but I would—I think—I think I'd like to work with you on this—to diagram the whole thing—that there's concentrations of like—women in relationships are almost always able to cheat because a guy will do it. Men in relationships—it's usually the ones that are more desirable, I think, that are cheating a lot. And then the—yes, that's n-symmetry. Yeah. Yes. And so there's a lot to unpack there because most men are not in a position to do very much cheating. That's what that means. I would say that every—I would say that every man who has a girlfriend could cheat if he wanted to, probably. It—it would just be more difficult for some men than others, right? It would be more difficult, and the degree of difficulty is one of those variables that I can't process in the moment. So there's—there's all of those—those mathematical factors at play about who's choosing who. And then not only that, there's also the psychological factors about what—what do you have guilty pleasure about saying you did? Yeah, I cheated, like, yeah, I got away with it. When—when do women feel good about admitting that, and when do they feel bad? When do men feel good about admitting it, and when do they feel bad? And how is that influencing what they say on these reports? I'm not able to process that in the moment. Okay, fair enough. You know what, fair enough. And I recognize that I've—obviously, you know, I've studied infidelity for years, and so there's a huge asymmetry of information where it's like—and also I can't be—I very much welcome rigorous criticism. I think everything I've said in this conversation is pretty easily Googleable. Um, I welcome fact-checking, and I will—what I will do—I'm going to come back—I'm going to come back to the comment—se—yeah, I'm going to come back to the comment section over the next week or—and if there's like common criticisms where people think I'm wrong, I'll add some sources and—and make sure that that's clear because I recognize that there's an asymmetry of information. Do you want to talk more about infidelity, or do you want to talk about zones? I think zones might be the most—is a great thing to get to, and we should do that. We—we're—we're filling up plenty of time. I do want to talk about ridicul—yeah, I want to talk about one more thing that—I—I'm not sure if you have considered—this is an idea that I bring up to people often, and they say they haven't considered it or they think it's ridiculous or something. What I've depicted here is uh—let me see if I can—I can't see anything—I—I hope you know—sorry, mate—is it like—this is—that better? Oh, okay. Okay. Okay. So what I've depicted here is that—what you said is that two octopuses—two octopuses together—exactly, crunch. Um, one of the things you said is that we need evidence that women lie more. I wanted to ask you, what do you think about like cross-cultural validation of—everywhere you go in the world, people recognize that men play it up and women—you know—no—no—no—no—no—no—it's worse than that—it's worse than that. We need evidence that women play it up with home-wrecking and play it down with cheating. So—so the cross-cultural reism—like—that—that's the reason that I brought up that data set because I was aware of this criticism—I anticipated it—I thought about it—I considered it—and I was like, well, what—what—what—what data can we collect on that? And it's like, oh, easy, we just look at the other side. And if—if that lying theory were true—oh, women lie more about cheating, and maybe they do, right? They need to lie a lot more—then they would also need to—that doesn't account for the fact that women report more success as the affair partner, right? And—and this is—this is something that you agree—that it doesn't account for it, right? You agree surely—say it again. I—I agree that what—doesn't account for what? That women being more—SI—women report being your affair partner more—that—that the fact that they report that doesn't account for what? So men report cheating more, and that you can say, oh, maybe men just lie less about that—which, by the way, by the way, is kind of weird because men are more antisocial than women in basically every study ever, and we're much more aggressive about lying about being violent—anything antisocial, we do it harder, right? How we are. But I recognize—I recognize that there—there—there are definitely reasons to think—I mean, I've spoken to some very—very smart people who think about this a lot who say that the numbers—the gap is smaller than it is. Very few people would say that there's no gap. Yeah, but this—this lying argument—it doesn't make sense for the other side of things, right? Where you say, okay, so wait, so women—women say that women lie more when they're having an affair, but they lie less when they're the affair partner. What—makes no sense? Well, BEC—and the—what I think—if that is actually what's happening, then I think the explanation for that would be that one thing—like admitting one of those things makes them feel like I'm the winner, and admitting the other one makes them feel like I'm the loser. And that—I understand—I understand. And I think in both cases, nobody wants to be a home-wrecker, nobody wants to be a cheater, and I think it's literally a back-and-spring to try and get away from the scary idea that maybe men cheat more than women. But anyway, show me—show me the octopus—explain the octopuses to me. Okay. Okay. Okay. Hang on. I just—I—I am considering—you know what—what you're saying, and I think that—I want to—I would love to work with you to diagram it out because it's difficult for me to understand. People—people who are going about their lives and have real jobs—is going to be even harder for them to understand. This—I do this a lot. Um, I'm considering that, and I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong. I'm just saying—I would—I wonder if you would consider that maybe there is something going on in the deep psyche that would make them lie differently in different situations—that's all I—okay. You know what—and—and I think—I think—I think that is worth considering. Sure. But in the context of the Maman biology making it so expected that men would cheat more—it's kind of like—why am I being such a—I mean, in science, we—we—I've said this publicly before—people think that scientists are like, oh, we have the truth, right? We never really have the truth—we have a provisional best guess that we're testing. Yes. And my provisional best guess, based on—I think five pieces of evidence I've shared today—my provisional best guess is that men cheat more. Okay. And to be a skeptic and say, I still think women cheat more—to me, that just sounds—every time a guy says that, I'm like, okay, bro, you've been cheated on so much—it's—there's a lot—there's again another variable—it's like—it's so complex—there's so many variables at play about what's going on with people psychologically and what we can measure and how that—it's going to be—it's—it's going to be really difficult for most people to understand. Before we move on to zones, I wanted to bring up that—like we talked about male propagation—one—one male, right?—can you—you see—you can see—yeah—one—one male can go to many females and have many children, right? So something that has crossed my mind that—I—I've never seen any evidence for, but I have thought about—that the reason that women might cheat is because having one stable partner to provide, you know, like finances and materials, and then having another partner who is very promiscuous will result in sons that are also promiscuous. That this is the mainstream—this is—this is the mainstream theory of female infidelity. It's something that I've done direct research on and found evidence for. Yeah. And this is actually one of the examples where—I—I told—I said earlier in this conversation—data changed my mind. Yes, I was very skeptical of this idea, and then I ran a very large—um, or not very large, but a large study in 19 countries on female infidelity, and I found pretty strong evidence for this idea. Now, it's a very controversial idea, um, but you know, myself—um—my co-authors who are, you know—um—my co-authors are both—are both, you know, very accomplished scientists. Um, yes. And yeah, I mean, I do—and there are people like Marty Hazelton who are really big fans of this idea. Um, it's not the worst idea in the world, and it's something that I think is true provisionally. Yeah. Okay. I think that—yes, that's the motivation behind female infidelity. Some people—so to give you an idea—some people believe that women have a singular mating strategy. I believe that women's mating strategies are dualistic. Men's mating strategies are—are probably a bit dualistic as well, but not in the same way, which is something we can talk about when we get to zon, right? So—so we're going to—we're going to leave this on that—my understanding of the data is limited. I don't have your experience with it. I am—uh—not deciding that men or women cheat more. I am just sort of holding a place for it to be possible that—that the female need to gain this and not lose this would be why they would lie in one direction there, and then home-wrecking would be gain and why they'd lie in the other direction there. It's—it's entirely—yeah. Yeah. I—I—I understand my suspicion, and maybe I'm not giving you enough benefit of the doubt—is that if the data went in the other direction, you'd believe it. I—I think that if you generalize that to the general population, that's how people tend to think. I think personally, I've done more work on myself than that, but I get where you're coming from. Okay, then you know what? I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. I appreciate that. All right, let's talk about zones. What—what do you—to say—this is the—well, this is—this is your—this is your great contribution. It's the biggest—the biggest thing. Yeah. This is—um—I'm making guys go to the gym with this one—one of the—one of the biggest dating memes—I mean, this is one of the reasons that I've wanted to talk to you—is that it's one of the biggest dating memes ever, right? And you know, it says to—how about this—I'll start with the two big things that are right about it, um, and this is why—think it's so popular—is because it—get it—show it—you know, it says a couple big things that people relate to, right? Can everyone see Z? Is there a way you can pull it up in like a way that's—I made it larger. Here's why—I just bought—I just thank God I've got money—I just bought a little camera stand, so there we go. That's better. Do that work. We can get this up because we're going to discuss this. I think—do you have 20 minutes? This will be our last topic. I do—I have—I have all the 20 minutes in the world, right? I—I forgot that I—see—I have to—I actually—you have a life. I live in the woods. Well, my whole life is—embarrassingly—it's—it's—it's just reading about this stuff. Yes. Um, let me just double-check the—um—let me just double-check the time if you don't mind. I know this is kind of impolite, but—

I've got my I've got my it's my first live, and I think that everyone's gonna forgive us both. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry everyone for all the technical difficulties. I mean, they're still they're still with us. Yeah, okay. What what type of numbers are we doing? Uh, I have not been paying attention because I'm my own tech crew right now.

Oh, that's fine. Yeah, don't worry about it. Let's just talk about zones.

Sure, let's do it. It'll be mostly a postao viewers anyway.

Yeah, okay. Zones. Yeah, zones, zones, zones. So this is one of the biggest dating memes ever, um, and it's really interesting. Um, I guess I'll point out the two big things that I think it gets right that are good to spread. Like it's like, oh, this is a very good thing that people are hearing this. Yeah. Um, one is that men lower their standards for short-term mating. Yeah, this is a well-established idea; it makes sense from an evolutionary theory perspective. Um, yeah, it's true, and it's probably good for women to be aware of it because a lot of women obviously get heartbroken because they get in short-term relationships not realizing because they it's it's a failure of cross-sex mind reading. It's like, oh, if I was sleeping with a guy, that means I like him, right? And it's like that's not projection.

Yeah, yeah. So that we call it a failure of cross-sex mind reading; it clearly happens to some people. It's probably for the best that they hear about it. Yeah. The other thing is that a lot of men feel that they are owed a relationship if they just invest and invest and invest.

Yeah, nicey. And yeah, exactly. And you know, I I I actually do believe that truly nice guys do quite well on the mating market. We might disagree on that.

Yeah, I think that I think that once once you attain at least a reasonable level of attraction with a woman, then this is only plus points.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. Okay, okay. So we agree on that; that's good. And a lot of men, they're they I mean, it sounds so annoying um, when they're like, oh, I did everything for her, D D D D D, and it's like that's not how love works.

Yeah, she just didn't like you.

Yeah, yeah, exactly, exactly. And it's like so it's good for men to know like, oh, just because you're super nice to her and spend all your time with her, buy things, doesn't mean she owes she doesn't owe you anything, right? You can't you can't buy attraction.

Yeah, exactly. It's it's and it's it's good for men to hear that upfront so they don't get their feelings hurt and so they don't sound just intolerably whiny about yes, about I did all this and she didn't like me. Yeah, it's like, do you think that this is what did you think this was? That's not how mating works, right? So that's good. So those are are two good things. The third thing, and this is the thing we just talked about, which is interesting because it's a controversial idea, so it's pretty funny to see it showing up in kind of this, you know, Meme space.

Yeah, this idea that there's dualism in our mating strategies. I would say that men's mating strategies are dualistic as well. Yes, but the idea I wouldn't classify it as good and bad. I I get the sense that more and more you're regretting classifying it that way, but I don't know. What do you mean? Cling as good B the good guy versus bad boy? Um, the language I think the I chose it for a reason because in our culture we talk about being good versus bad, and I want to show that it's not a choice and that you are if you max out both, then that's what women want. It's like a a trans it's like a fusion; it's like a a alchemical fusion of the two. Um, I think that the way that language works, we need to you know, we need to say things differently than this. I have a lot of thoughts on that, but um, no, I wouldn't say I regret it quite yet. I would say that I need to refine and expand this and explain especially these two things.

Okay, so I guess um I guess there are some things that there are some things that I that I disagree with that probably aren't that important. Okay. Um, I'm surprised that you put a gold-digger-y person as being less invested when really that's that's when you invest so much that it actually does work. That's that is a great point, that is which which is kind of a it's just kind of a peculiar placement because friends are much less invested than men who are putting, but that's not particularly important. Um, that's one of the things I I I mean, when I say I need to refine it, when I put gold digger here, what I meant is like this guy is so nice that she'll hang out with him for being nice, but this guy's got to pay.

Yeah. Another thing is um okay, so you talk about you know, the story that you tell about why women like bad boys, you tell an evolutionary story, and this is one cont where it just me way mean. There are people who their entiers looking into why different things evolved, yeah, and you have a real habit of just using logic and just being like, oh, this is why.

Yeah, right. But if you did maybe an hour of reading on the subject for why you know these things are attractive, you'd realize that men have gotten you know, if you look at human evolution, we've gotten less dimorphic, less physically masculine, right, and also less psychopathic, right? We've become a more passive um submissive species in what FR um over the past 10,000.

Go I mean since we split off from chimpanzees.

Okay, 200,000 200,000 years or more.

Much more, much more. We split off from chimpan five million years ago.

Oh, okay, okay. Yeah, I'm not familiar with there there's been strong selection against, and you can if anyone's interested in this topic, I spoke to you know one of the leading professors at Harvard who looks into this stuff, and it's it's a it's a conversation I had with him titled Docility and the Death Penalty. It's it's a two-hour long conversation on his research on this, but basically over over the millennia men have become less masculine, less dominant, basically less bad boy, less killers.

Yes. Um, and so this this narrative that you tell of like, oh, only the killers survived, only the bad boys survived, it's like it's like actually in the real world, the reason we have less bad boys is because once we started living in social groups, we started executing those guys on a systematic basis. The idea that so that it's the idea that it's like, oh, women like psychopaths because psychopaths have a competitive advantage; it's like that's an interesting story to tell yeah, when like 1% of men are psychopaths, it's like, oh, they're so successful, and yet their genes have almost disappeared.

Yeah, like so it's a so one thing one thing that I would appreciate one thing that I would appreciate would be you know, less storytelling with the evolution stuff. I'm I love evolution, but to just make stuff up and say it's true because it's like, oh, HTH figured it out, HTH you know, used his brain and just logic it out. I don't want to be doing that either. Yeah, spend you know eight hours reading on the subject first, like because some people are spending decades of reading on.

Yes. Um, so that's that's one point, and but that's also not particularly but that's not particularly important, and the reason it's not particularly important because ma is because masculinity to an extent, dominance to an extent, power to an extent, and even dark triad traits to an extent in some contexts are attractive; that does seem to be what the literature shows. So it doesn't really matter if the story you're telling is wrong as to why; what matters is you know what's actually true there, and and I think we can get into bigger disagreements that are more interesting. Um, so one thing that I noticed that is almost ignored in the short term in terms of like being attractive, right, in terms of being physically attractive, yeah, you don't mention any pro-social traits. Uh, that's all this stuff over here, so that but we have but we have evidence that like if you're a handsome guy and you do a good thing, you seem more handsome, right? So if I'm if you so for example, if I you know on this um you know if you take a video of me debating a red-piller or whatever, women will rate it one way, but if you take a video of me volunteering with puppies, I'm going to be rated a lot higher in terms of how sexy that's that's the way that I that I think this works. I think I'm I'm I got this done. Why isn't but why is it all darkness? Why is there no well, it's not all it's not all the bottom.

No, no, no, on no, no, no, no. I'm talking about in terms of sexual appeal. I'm saying that that some good guy traits I'm totally fine with admitting, boa, some good guy traits are sexier as well, and it's weird to me. Let me ask you this way. Let me ask it this way that those those good guy traits, like loving puppies and everything, would that make a man sexually attractive if he had nothing if he was not good-looking, no money, unconfident, if he just loved puppies, would women go, okay, that's hot?

No, no, yes. So then that's exct that's what I'm trying to say here is that this these are the prerequisites for attraction; these are intensifiers. When you you can't get attraction based on good good guy stuff. If you do only good guy stuff and you have no bad boy stuff, you can't get women attracted to you. You have to have this and then this. What I'm saying is that you can be you can even push yourself. So one thing, actually, I'll let you keep speaking. I'll let you keep speaking. Sorry.

Well, I was almost done. It's that this is this is the the substrate of attraction, the the body, the looks, the voice, the height, and then um that like that video that I sent you about the girl with the heart eyes for a guy who looks like he's never been touched but he knows exactly what to do. It's like, oh, he must have figured something out; he must be like super good with women, right?

Yeah, right. And that's something that she appreciates. So yes, the social proof and the being in charge of people, those are the things that are sexy, and then good. Let's talk about sexy; let's talk about sexy really quickly because I I I understand what you're saying, and I think your audience understands what you're saying too, so I want to just focus on that one point.

Yes. Do how do you explain, right, the tremendous and obvious sex appeal to women of guys like Harry Styles, of guys like Justin Bieber, of guys like you know, the all the members of One Direction, BTS, tons of actors, right? Ryan Gosling isn't isn't much of a bad boy; he's you know, considered sexiest guy ever, right?

Well, yeah, these are not these guys are not particularly masculine, right? Not particularly dominant, powerful, confident, and these guys are getting tons of attention from women. Yeah, and then we have the most dominant, most powerful men in the world, right? We're talking about UFC fighters, right? Powerlifters, guys who have are maxed out on masculinity getting almost zero attention to women proportionately.

Yeah. So my feeling, my feeling, and I'll I'll say this and then I'll just let you speak.

Yeah, I'm fine with some bad boy being traits being some bad boy traits being attractive in some context, and we can talk more about the literature there because a lot of it's driven by narcissism, not psychopathy. Still, I think you cut out that's I had stuff to say. I had stuff to explain about that. Your network connection is over. What's happening? Lost your network connection, lag. We will be right back. We will be right back. Are we here? Is it in is it on? I think we are. Are we back? We're back. Okay. Oh my God, what a great what a great feeling. I was like, oh, we have to cut it short at the most interesting part.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was getting good. Um, almost so my so I'll finish my point on the zones thing, and then I'm going to give you as much space as you want to respond. Literally, you can take 15 minutes. So thank you.

Yeah. So I I'm the most verbose person ever, um, so I I often talk too much.

Yeah. Oh, and look at the HD; this is so much better than it was. This is great. Awesome. Okay, so I'm totally fine with we see in studies that you know masculinity, dominance, um, dark triad, these things sometimes do have effects; they sometimes don't; sometimes they have small effects; very rarely have large effects. I actually don't know of any study where they have large effects where they make like ugly guys hot, right? Like an ugly ugly guy, say Henry Kissinger.

Yeah. So so a lot of guys my feeling is that when I when I look at the mating market as a whole, it's like a lot of guys cope with the fact that you know it's it's comforting to be like, oh, he stole my girlfriend because I'm a better person than him.

Agree that happens. Yeah, this is the red pill idea of an inconvenient truth, right? It's like, oh, harsh truth, the reason women don't like you is because you're too good of a person. It's like that's the most self-soothing belief I've ever heard. So I'm not saying that women don't I'm not saying that I'm not saying that women don't like bad boys; I'm saying that it's very interesting that you've left out some things that are clearly sexy from the bottom half, and you really emphasize you really emphasize the like badness of the bad boyness instead of just the hotness, which is just which is most of the effect surely. Anyway, that's my whole point, so that's it's a it's a great point, and what it's it's not that I disagree, and it's not that I didn't include that; it's that I am dealing with getting like globally famous in within three months, within a couple of weeks really, and I had to get this thing done; I had to get it out and get it done. There's a lot more explanation that needs to go into this about the interaction between looks and masculinity, like what you were talking about with Harry Styles and Justin Bieber; they're pretty they're pretty they have luscious lips and smooth hair, and they have nice eyes and symmetrical faces; they're pretty, but there are also yeah, but there are pretty guys who are a lot better than them who don't get a lot of attention, right? So for example, and this is you know, maybe maybe this is maybe, but I think it's obvious even to straight men that like the like boxers like Ryan Garcia, for example, right?

Yeah, very very good-looking guy and obviously very dominant, very powerful, doesn't get half as much attention as a sweet singer who says you don't know you're beautiful but doesn't yeah. Isn't that accounted for by the like that's like Beatlemania; there it's like the biggest thing. Justin Bieber is the biggest thing in the world. Who's this boxer? But why is he the big but why is he the biggest thing? Oh, because they have to have someone to be the biggest thing to sell records, like that's do or is it or is it attractive? Is it attractive to be a hot nice guy? This is something that red-pill guys don't like facing because it's tough to deal with, but it's like the guy who stole your girlfriend, not only is he better-looking than you, but he's also a nicer guy.

Yes. That's something that a lot of these red-pill guys don't like to face, and so they compensate by focusing on the bad boy research, which I'm not denying, right? And we're going to talk about that more. Yeah, do you get what I'm getting at? Do am I being clear to you?

You're being you're being clear to me; it's just that I think that again, what I said is I I think most of our disagreements are perspective-based. Uh, I don't disagree with anything you're saying at all right now. Um, I think that that if Justin Bieber or those other guys, like if they were like wimpy and couldn't make eye contact and were like, oh, I don't you know, then that would be that would take a lot away from the attraction. The fact that he's able to lean into his fame, the fact that he's able to say there was some point where I don't know if this is a real story, but Justin Bieber, but he's not but they're not but they're not masculine, right? They're these guys are often you know, they're often lat feminine.

Yeah, they're not physically they're still they're still getting crowned. No, not even physically in terms of even their like, for example, Harry is is on the cover of Vogue and address. Wish Styles look like. Well, I think I'm I think I might be like I think I'm significantly younger than you. I actually don't know how old you are, but the point but the point is that he's you know, wearing a dress, and women are saying he's looking great, and a lot of red-pill guys they want to deny that because it bothers them, but the truth is that there could be men there could be men who are you know, it's they're better than you, and they're a better person than you, and they're more it's not that they're more masculine and dominant and they just shoved you out of the mating market; um, they're actually really sweet guys, and she just preferred them.

Yes. That is all. I think all of that is true, and I think that what I'm trying to describe about attraction and the way that attraction works does account for all of that; it's just that this diagram is crude because I had to make it really fast.

Okay, I understand. I understand. Yeah, I I do agree with everything that you're saying there that masculinity it's kind of like it's it's kind of like something that you can add on top of looks, but in some cases it's enough to make up for looks; it's it's really complex, like women will say he doesn't look all that good, but man, can he do this this and this, and it's so sexy.

Yeah. Well, that's that's that's going to be that's going to be true for a lot of things. I mean, there's also women who say and you focus all on the darkness stuff, but there's a lot of women who say you know, my husband's not the best-looking guy in the world; he's not the best-looking guy in the world, but he but he treats me well, right? And a lot of red-pill guys they cover their ears; they scream; they're like, oh no, that's horrible.

H yeah, so he's you know, but even but even so it's like um anyway, I guess I guess the the focus on darkness I'm very suspicious of because I view it as a form of cope; it's not for you, but the reason it's popular if that makes sense.

Yes, I I do I do agree with that. Easy to it's easy to self-soothe yourself with it. I would say that for all the men who doubt it, I would say it's like, oh, what is what do Ted Bundy, Harry Styles, and all the other guys who are attractive have in common? They're all hot, right? Like it's not it's not that complicated, and so you know these these frankly you know just not particularly sophisticated thinkers, they're like, oh, look at women being attracted to Ted Bundy, the women love bad boys, and it's like yeah, okay, Ted Bundy you know has model facial attractiveness; yeah, he's not an ugly he's not an ugly serial killer.

Yeah. Harry Styles is not a serial killer; he's singing You Don't Know You're Beautiful, right? He's being like the sweetest guy, and women like that too, and it's like what do these two guys have in common? They're good-looking. It's good.

Yeah. So it's like so my feeling is a lot of this this right side of things can be pushed towards you know, frankly um women like hot guys, which isn't isn't that surprising.

Sure. But would other then the other thing that I'll just throw in is that it's not that I'm I've never been described as a nice guy; if anything, I come across as very you know, so it's not that I'm biased and trying to make.

Yeah, I'm not yeah, I think that I've demonstrated in this conversation that I'm not particularly personable and friendly, um, and yeah, it's it's it's not that I'm biased and I want nice guys to be successful, right? Successful; it's just that I I recognize that it's not all about just and thank God it's not mate competition in our species is not be the biggest dick possible, right? Or that's poor word choice in this context; it's not the biggest [ __ ] possible. In certain contexts it can win you a lot, like if you're killing a whole village and taking all the women, I mean, yeah, maybe a thousand years ago, mate, but that's long ago.

Yeah, yeah. So it's um so and and I don't even think that it's appropriate to compare that in terms of because that if we're talking about terms influence, well, if we're talking about like like a war crime, a prehistoric war crime versus you know, attracting a girl on Tinder, I think those are very different topics. I do wonder sometimes how much we come from prehistoric war crimes. Um, there was there was a few things I wanted to get to. Were were you I didn't mean to interrupt; did had you major?

No, no, no, you didn't. I'll but I but I will point out one more thing just from the dark triad. So look, we get small effects with dominance and masculinity, behavioral masculinity things like that where it's like yeah, that makes you you know, like one big effect I saw was like 10% more attractive in a vignette study, which is interesting, right?

Yeah. The dark triad is much more complicated than that. So the dark triad is three traits, and this is just for to make sure everyone's on the same page: psychopathy, which is callousness, not caring about human life, that kind of thing; Machiavellianism, which is manipulativeness, right? This is being a snake, as we would say socially; and then narcissism, thinking you're the [ __ ], right? This is me you know, oversimplifying; I know that there's going to be some dark triad researcher who is who's like, oh, you know, it's more complicated than that, and it probably is, but for our purposes, that's good enough. Psychopathy sometimes comes out as attractive; Machiavellianism maybe, right? Narcissism is the driving force when we see or it seems to be, right? There are two very persuasive studies that looked at dark triad traits, and it seems to be that narcissism is driving the effect, right?

Yeah. Now this is there needs to be more research done, and and again you know, I think dat psychology had a had a blog post on this which which summarizes it, but basically narcissism is a huge component of it, and narcissism, what is narcissism? Narcissists spend more time on their physical appearance, so they look better, right? That's we agree that's important.

Yes. And then they're also they come across as confident, right? So I'm I'm I'm not completely against the idea that dark triad traits are attractive, right? I'm fine with it. Yeah, but if we're being if we're being good scientists, if we're being humble, right, it's possible that we're just finding the effects of good looks and good confidence being replicated in the dark triad side of things and then also just as a as a factor, right? So you and I'm not making I'm trying not to make this personal, but you've obviously had great short-term success but had some trouble long-term, right?

Absolutely. Y one thing that we see is that there's and you have you know, cultivated and imitated dark triad individuals as part of that process. One thing we see is that dark triad individuals tend to have unstable long-term relationships; they don't tend to be the types who get happily like if you want more people to be happily married, telling them to cosplay as a psychopath is catastrophic, right? That's number one; that's I think that's I think that's in not accurate to my message, but I get I take your meaning, but I don't I don't the the way I put a finer point on it than that, I'll get to that. Okay, and then number two is that dark triad individuals attract dark triad individuals. So if I were to start pretending to be a bad boy, right, pretending to be an evil man, right, I would attract

Women who it would be very difficult to have stable romantic relationships with, because, like, T. Research indicates, yeah, crazy BRS, crazy, like, yeah, and evil brings evil. So telling men, right, yeah, when you tell men, hey, work on your fitness, hey, show some confidence, I’m like, yeah, that that’s going to work, yeah. When you tell them, you know, cultivate the darker sides of your personality, I’m like, okay, have fun being, have fun being single at 40. Okay, like that’s that’s the that’s the that’s of the worst strategies you could undertake.

Also, if also ref if you’re concerned with society, right, with like H things getting better, telling now, and I recognize that you’ve become famous very recently, so you didn’t know that you were going to be be this influential. Oh yeah, I got some work to do. You’re suddenly, yeah, you’re suddenly telling millions of people to be [ __ ]. Well, no, no, well, no disaster. I hope that I hope they’re not taking it that way, because what the way that I talk about it is not being ass. The way that I talk about cultivating dark Triad traits is, the the way that I’ve come up with to explain it recently, is that women want to see that whatever they’re scared of is scared of you. They want to see that you’re capable of getting bad if you have to. They don’t want you to just be mean to people, or very much less to them, but they want to see that you can turn on psychopath mode when there’s a real enemy.

So I think I think that’s probably true, but think that a lot of your audience is going to interpret, let’s, I don’t really I don’t really watch I don’t really watch TV, but I think that a lot of your audience will probably get this reference, is just that I think that a lot of them are going to think that you mean more Joker than Batman. Do you understand what I’m saying?

I do understand what you’re saying, and I, both of those guys, both of those guys are, you know, vicious characters, but one of them is dark Triad and one of them is very much not, right? Like, there there’s no psychopathy. I am telling people to be Batman, not the Joker. Yeah, let’s talk about that for a second. Let’s talk about that for a second, because this is something where I saw a video of yours this week where I literally almost canceled this interview because I was like, what the what what is he saying here?

Okay, all right, which one was it? Yeah, so there is a video where it starts with a clip out of context, right, of one woman saying that that it’s like, what’s a toxic thing that you liked that you like? Yes, that one. I like being choked. Yeah, I like being choked during an argument. Yeah, right. And then you use that, right, you that as your foundation to talk about how women like social dominance. Now it’s fine to say that, you know, social dominance is sexy, right? I have no issues with that, but deliberately pick of all the anecdotes you could have picked, yeah, to jump off that, think about the millions of people that you’re reaching, and in that case, you know, 30,000 or whatever it was. I’m not saying that that video alone reached millions, but it risked reaching millions. Yes, and do you not see that that is outrageously dangerous for women? Like, I I’ve bent over backwards to say that you’re not saying, right? I’ve I’m literally I am doing a back handspring right now in order to believe that you’re not saying that women like to be abused, but yes, but a lot of your audience, I scrolled through the comments, they were interpreting that way, and some of them were horrified. Some of your audience was like, he’s saying that women that women want to be attacked during, what a maniac? What? There were people saying, oh, I always knew that this guy was evil, right? There were people saying, oh, I always knew always knew that this guy was a creep. I always knew that this guy was a freak. Very sensitive message, and frankly, and frankly, I was thinking the same thing. I watched the video like three times because I was literally cons I was like, should I just cancel this [ __ ] like this guy’s crazy.

Yeah, but I’ve now done the backhand spring. I’ve read you defending yourself, yes, and you say, oh, I’m that’s not what I meant. That’s not what I meant. It was an extreme example to show that women like dominance, and it’s like, yeah, okay, okay, maybe that’s true, but of all the examples you could, this what I’m talking about in terms of the recklessness, finish. Sure. What I’m talking about in terms of the recklessness is that you’re saying you’re blasting this to thousands of people, and there are idiots on the internet, there are violent people on the internet, and you’re sending them a message that frankly, I would, I’m not a stupid person, it wouldn’t have been a stupid person, it wouldn’t have been a stupid interpretation to to think that you were saying women want to be attacked during an argument. Sure. So what you’re what you’re talking about is um the the my level of skill in communicating really really subtle psychological processes. I think you’re deliber I think you’re deliberately being inflammatory in order to get more clicks, and I think that you’re now big enough that that’s a huge risk. I think I think that there is a lot of Truth to that, and I think that I have been changing the way that I uh send messages accordingly.

So with that particular video, what I’m what I was getting at is that there was something really surprising that I learned, which is that sometimes women kind of want you to be aggressive, like when I when I came to understand what BDSM is and how it works and how people incorporate that into their lives, I was trying to point to how women kind of want to be sometimes in certain situations, deep in the psyche, if if if if if if if right cuz I’m trying not to redo what you you know were upset about. In certain situations, they do want to be targets of that. It makes them feel excited, and they enjoy the situation. They wanted, there there are obviously some women who practice BDSM en BSM. I’m even look I’m I’m not having AC uncomfort truths. I would bet that a lot more people engage in BDSM than admit it on surveys, right? I’m I’m totally willing to say that, and the rates of people who admit it on surveys, it’s pretty low if you use the term BDSM, but if you ask about specific acts, like most people, yeah, most people engage in spanking, right? And that’s that’s technically that’s we’re already there, right? Step one. Yeah, step one. But if that’s your message, right, your message is, hey guys, right, women actually like a guy who, you know, is able to be dominant, and a lot of women love BDSM. If You’ made a video about that, I wouldn’t be I wouldn’t be criticizing you, right? It’s like, oh, that’s that’s there’s probably some truth to that. Yeah, but instead you made a video of a random woman, of all the anecdotes you could have selected, a random woman saying she likes to be choked during an argument. What were you thinking?

Well, for you to say that it is inflammatory and uh uh you know, etcetera, I think I do, you know, and I’m always getting to know myself more. I’m always getting to know my personality better, and I think I do like taking extreme examples in order to demonstrate general principles, like, hey guys, if this could happen, then what do you think is happening with normal people? And that doesn’t always get through, and that might be, you know, that may be the the Spectrum or whatever. The the message I’m trying to send is, hey, some people say this out loud, sometimes a woman feels that way. The girl said she like getting choked during arguments. That’s wild. That’s crazy stuff. That’s crazy, and it’s yeah, it’s very unusual as well, like like just to be clear, like that is not that’s not that’s not that’s that’s that’s I’m not even sure if that’s BDSM anymore, like could be in their Brides. It’s it’s in what I call the mystery Zone. It Bridges the gap between, you know, knowing that you’re safe and not, and and yeah, I mean, she they she for all I know she has some arrangement with her partner that that I’m not privy to, and I really do believe that consent adults can do whatever they want, but the issue but the issue here is that you have a huge audience of men, yes, who are already disproportionately, like if you’re talking to men who aren’t wanted, we do see that men who struggle on the mating Market tend to be more sexist, right? Yes, and you’re telling them in a very unclear way dominance is sexy, and you’re choosing to use an example that not just in my opinion, I would just say that I don’t even think it’s an opinion, I think that this is this is clearly true that it’s that it’s going to be putting whatever women they interact with at risk of violence. I and I think you have to be very careful about that. I think that I think that a lot of what you’re saying is true. I don’t know how true there is there is a tendency I was looking for the thing but I couldn’t find it. There’s a tendency I think of people to say, you know, uh uh basically everything I don’t like causes mass shootings, and I’m not saying do you think that’s what I’m doing? I I I think that again, so here’s a great example. That’s a great example. That’s the way I communicate. I took what you just said and I made it the most extreme version of it possible in order to make a point, which is what I was doing with that video, and that’s the way that I generally communicate. I just go like, hey, look at this, do you think?

After reading the comments to that video, and again, look, this I’m not I’m not there there’s more to talk about, but since we’re since there’s clearly still some disagreement, did you reflect after reading the comments, hey, maybe uh maybe people got this wrong? Yeah, like this type like putting putting this putting this type of stuff up, it’s just like, yeah, people are going to, you know, they’re going to misinterpret, they’re going to misinterpret it. Yeah, and I RIS I think what you’re telling me right now is that in your estimation people are going to misinterpret it more than in my estimation, and that’s good, like that’s what I call good feedback, and uh that’s the kind be very careful. I think you overestimate how much how popular BDSM is. I’m not saying it’s it’s not very popular with 50 Shades of Gray, that sort of thing, but I I think that you now have this huge audience and you’re you know blasting them with images like this, right? And yeah, and it’s and it’s really going to mislead people. Like you’re talking to thousands of people. What I’m saying is if she likes it and wants it then there isn’t anything wrong with this cuz it’s rooted in the psyche. They were calling it toxic, and that is it’s a message that’s probably way too subtle and not appropriately constructed for a wide audience. I think that’s what you’re saying, and now you have and now you have a wide audience. Yeah, yes, yes. So that’s just, you know, you got to permit me some mistakes while I’m growing. Yeah, yeah. Okay, well, if you’re agreed that it’s a mistake, then I think there’s I yeah, I think that I think that given the way that you’re framing it, like I’m I’m right now, can you put this off the screen? I don’t even like being on the screen with this to be honest. Absolutely. Sure. Um, I understand. So I I think that uh uh I’m formulating an opinion about my own, you know, self and my own work while listening to you, and I’ve been really just by myself in my room doing this. Um, I get a lot of I do flip through the comments and I see who feels this way and who feels that way, and I try to gauge and change by that, and sometimes I take things down. You’re making me feel like I should probably take that down. Yeah, yeah. So my my I understand that you’re obviously, you know, you’re in the woods and you’re getting feedback on comments, and so it’s it’s very hard to get the kind of gut reaction of what most people will feel with that kind of thing, because if you think just as just just as a just as a word of advice, all this money is going to go away if you get banned on YouTube, on Tik Tok, and they and this is the sort of content where, yeah, people have done much less and gotten much more uh banned. So even if even if you don’t care about put exposing women to the risk of violence, right? And I know that a lot of people in the comments are gonna be like, oh, you know, Mack’s a s or whatever. I’m a s for not wanting women to be abused. Really, like that’s that that’s the sort of thing. So the that that’s I I agreee with you. I don’t want women to be abused, but the the language of like it makes it seem like I do want that, and that that’s you don’t no, no, no, I I but I you don’t but I I do think that you’re you’re very fast and loose with very much so, and way that you can’t shoot from the hip on this kind of stuff, because people, and again I’m gonna be I’m gonna be I get it. I get it. You guys all think that that I’m the weak duckling or whatever. I assure you in person I’m not. Yeah, but the I believe it. Yeah, the idea that um that this is a that this is a low-risk recommendation is insane, and also I’m not sure, yeah, I can’t genely I’m open to yeah, I’m open to the idea that BDSM is more popular than I think. I’m not open to the idea that this is the sort of thing that’s like blanket recommendation, boys. No, not a recommendation, getting getting the ropes out, not a not a recommendation, an illustration, an illustration of what is happening deep in the psyche, which is I think a g given your reaction to it sounds more and more unskillful as I go, and I’ve got to learn as I go. I’ve got to learn how people react. I I appreciate that. I I think that on on the other on the other end of things um there there is, you know, there’s clearly a conversation to be had given the popularity of things like 50 Shades of Gray, and it’s it is an interesting one, but it’s one that has to be pursued. I get that you want to be a provocateur, and I get that you have an edgy an edgy com style, and I’m not and and I think that in a lot of places that’s probably appropriate, and this is one place where it’s it’s too much of a mass audience. Yeah, every time the every time one of those videos pops up, I think, okay, this is um this is insane. Well, how about you send me a list of the ones that you think, and I and I’ll you can you can start you can you can be like my first line of uh I I’ll run I’ll run ideas by you when they start getting wild. Yeah, that okay, well that’s that’s that’s very generous. I think um I think we’ll I think we should end on uh we should end on some on some shared advice and uh W it so that way we’re not uh we’re not ending on on me on me yelling at you and you uh I don’t feel particularly yelled at. I feel like you’re yelling at the mistake. Okay, well that’s that’s very mature of you. Yeah, it’s it’s it holds it holds true what you’ve said about yourself that you’re you’re fine with criticism. Yeah, so let’s um yeah let’s let’s go to let’s go to zones and just uh yeah, you want you want to just polish that up?

Well, I’ll just um I’ll just say some points of agreement, and if you want to end on anything I’m happy to leave it there. Sure. Um, yeah, obviously, you know, I don’t think there I think there’s G to be a small population of women watching. Obviously, it’s good to be aware that, you know, yeah, it’s good to be aware that some men will pretend to take you seriously when they won’t, and then if you’re a guy um you’re not going to invest your way into being loved uh you really need to do it all um and that might feel unfair, right? That might feel, you know, that might feel upsetting. It’s like, why do I have to work hard? Why can’t someone just love me for who I am? That’s that’s the dream. That’s the dream. Yeah, it’s like, love me for my personality, and it’s like, well, you expect more than personality from your mate, and so you should bring more than that, not the real world. Yeah, and um the message of like, look, you know, get your looks in order as much as you can, and then go from there uh and also don’t be a pushover, and don’t be try to work on your insecurities and your mental health and make your make yourself not seem, you know, like a coward. That that’s probably good um and then from there, you know, then that’s when investment starts to starts to pay off, and uh yeah, I think that I think that would be my my my positive word on uh on this section of things.

Great. Yeah, and and ironing this out and finalizing it and making sure that there’s an order to things and there’s a, you know, like which one feeds into which and how they work, and you can’t build it all on this, and you can’t build it all on this. Fleshing that out is something that I’m going to have to spend a lot more time on, like this took me 3 days of really intense work, and I had to do it in order to catch the wave of, you know, Fame, to get popular, and now that everything is starting to work for me, I’m going to have to, you know, refine it and make it more clear and get more feedback, like the feedback you’re giving me. So I, you know, I agreed all around with all that stuff, and I think, you know, overall our our disagreements were mostly perspective based, and I think what we got down to was like that we believe different things, because when you get into that sort of mystery zone of like, we don’t know what’s happening and we have to say, well, what do we think is most true, we feel differently about what’s likely to be most true. I think that’s why we come to different conclusions, like that we do know or can know or can’t know or what’s likely and what’s not likely, and I’d like to just continue that conversation. I I think I find what you do uh useful and fascinating, and I think what I do is really entertaining, and I think if one could inform other than that would be uh you know, overall like very powerful.

Yeah, well, thank you for having me on today, and and thank you for the kind words, and I’ll also just say that I think that you have one of the strangest opportunities that anyone has ever had, whether you realize it or not, where you are probably the first, whether probably the first famous incel adjacent, yeah, celebrity um I don’t know I don’t know how else to say it, where you’re inj influencer where this crowd of people who is teetering on being selected out of the mating Market has found a has found a folk hero in the form of a cartoonist philosopher. Yeah, and there is the question of uh does he turn them into men who think attacking women is sexy and who are who are calling women delusional and making the world objectively worse to the point where it’s like, you know, uh the men on the top half of the group um who well, you know, I mean, yeah, of course they they’ll end up if there’s if there’s if there’s an allout fight between here between you know the that side of the population and the side that has succeeded in other things, it’s it’s it’s gonna end up with just a lot of them in jail. Yeah, um or do you know things get better and do these men become more positive and end up in stable monogamous relationships with women who they’re happy with, and those areu yeah, I know, and there’s a genuine question still in the era my mind, everyone’s mind, yeah, of whether it’s like, do you lean into the bitterness and become this controversial guy who rils them up um or do you genuinely try to make it possible for them to get married and have kids and have a nice time in the end? So we’ll see. I’m rooting for you in that sense at least.

Good, and you know, however much uh involvement you want to have, you know, I know you now and you know feel feel free to provide you have my number guidelines. I do, and uh and it’s it’s good. I think it’s good. There we go. Thanks. I think that was I think that was that was that was hours longer than we expected. Two hours long. We thought we were going to do like one, maybe an hour 15. It was almost three. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. All right, I’m gonna go to the lab. Okay, all right. Great having you. Thank you so much. Talk to you soon. Thank you. Bye-bye. Okay, bye. How do you all enjoy it? Give me some feedback before I shut down. You guys, you guys hear you guys here what is bro yapping about? Mackan is not genuine. Only men need fixed. That’s a that’s kind of a point I didn’t really bring that up. How many people do we have? 200. Ashton Otley wanted to say you handled that criticism well. It wasn’t too constructive or positive. I think that it was mostly constructive and positive. I think that it was mostly like, I’m worried about harm you might do, you know? I think Mackin can be a little aggressive at times, but I think that he’s trying to do the right thing. Who’s the mag social scientist logical fallacy arguments? The field is weak. Oh, okay. Yeah, I don’t know I don’t know about that. Thank you all for being here. It is so appreciated. Now would be a good time to insert ads. Can you guys still hear me? You guys want me to flip through of my work? I am going to take that video down now. He did make me feel pretty self-conscious about it. Stay on live. You guys want me to draw you an apple or something? This [ __ ] ain’t for incels, for guys who are in the market that didn’t know how to speak. Yeah, yeah, that there’s no he watched some of my content uh what’s your name there uh black psycho, he he watched some of my content. He has a wildly different interpretation than my fans do. He’s talking about how it’s being seen by a different group of people, and I think that he is um he’s trying to change my delivery to stop my growth. I don’t I don’t know about that. I don’t know about that um I think that he’s got genuine concerns, and I’m not going to feel that bad about taking the BDSM video down. If you listen to this guy, you lose. I’m Not Gon to obey him. Dragon. I’m G to listen to his criticism, and I I really want an opportunity to step out of the echo chamber and and listen to what people who don’t like me think, cuz people who don’t like me are not really commenting all that much except to say incel incel and then that’s incel adjacent. It is incel adjacent. Like there are incels in the world, and this is the kind of thing that they like. I’m not calling any of you incels, but if any of you are, you probably would be interested in me complaining about the things that that you go through. Keep the video. Just don’t get banned. Yeah, that’s a good point. Mack was being very condescending for no reason. It’s not no reason. It’s CU that’s how he does things. He he has put a lot of effort into his um career, and when people don’t understand the numbers and the and the math correctly or or at least when he doesn’t think they do, because I I think we just had perspective differences. He doesn’t he doesn’t like it when when you know guesses and ideas are louder than the science um a moderator who keeps time. Yeah, thank you. FaZe more long videos, they’re coming soon. More than man, I’m moving on November 8, and when I get to my new place, it’s going to be churn churn churn churn churn. Do not change and stand your ground. I’m not going to change much. I

Am going to take the video down. Add hom him for the last 15 minutes. Yeah, maybe I like Mackin. Am I single? I'm single right now. I think I'm going to be single for a while. I um had a real hell of a time dating before and during coid. Lots of uh o lots of ouchies. Oh, am I getting—are people paying money to send comments and I'm not seeing them? Oh no, I got to go back and tell everyone how how much I appreciate it. There's five bucks, there's 10, there's 10, there's 20. Okay, thank you, people who paid money to comment. I will go read them.

I don't think it's criticism was genuine. I think it's just to make you look bad. No, I think his criticism was mostly genuine. I think that he's I think that he's upset about some of the messages I send and the way I send them, but I don't think that he's just attack me. I really do think that he's um God is hard in the right place. Doesn't straight up demonetize you. It's not going to be much more profitable. Matos, I've got a lot of videos, tons of videos, smarter than him. Thank you, Greg. I think he's a smart guy. Stand your ground; when you grow, you're going to get haters. Yeah, I am way more helpful than you think. Oh, I know how helpful I am. Jam jars. I know I'm super helpful. Um, I'm going to come up I am going to come up with smarter ways to say these things though. Like he's he's Mack and is I think that he's right about that. Um, I was feeling like I could just kind of say whatever I wanted, and I'm not feeling so much like that anymore. There, I'm turning the video off, but I'm still here.

Ma is envious? Well, maybe, but that's that's not all of his motivation, Rodrigo. That's not that just because he might want my numbers doesn't mean that he doesn't mean what he says. Can I get this to shut off? Yeah, there we go. It's off. There we go. Um, okay, I'm G to shut this and go to all right guys, give me a few more comments or um recommendations or uh oh, someone said something. 1999, Teddy be funny, inel adjacent, no and no. Oh, in seven years. Well, Teddy, I'm coming out with um with self-maximize soon, and it'll contain the like a a basic set of instructions for how to make yourself as attractive as possible, and it's going to be your looks, and it's going to be having something to do with your life and being interesting and being funny and learning to be confident, and it's going to contain meditations, and it's going to contain gratitude practices, and at the end of it you're going to be fit and hopeful and have something going on in your life, and you're going to show that to women, and they're going to say, "I like that." Um, that's my goal with self-maximize. Hey Abe, Abe uh sleep on it before you remove the video. I could always put it back up. I'm just going to go make it private. It's really no big deal. It's really really no big deal to take the video down. I believe he who uh what's the the video he wants me to take down is the one the BDSM one about uh about uh uh that the girl who liked getting choked that I was using that as an illustration of like sometimes women really want you to be in charge of them, the non-toxic. That's the one. Yeah. Um, I think he made a good point. Google account, YouTube Studio, there we go. Best social science commentary was that levels one. Yeah, I mean, levels was great. That's not contentious at all. Oh my God, you guys, I passed 100,000 subscribers yesterday, and today I have 126. Um, you don't need that illustration. His jealousy over how quick you grew. I don't know. You got lots of praising for your little respect. I don't know what that one means. I got praise but not respect. Comments, analytics, content, there we go. He had a hard time following the levels chart. Who did? Mack? What about Shadow work? No, Shadow work's staying up. There's nothing there's nothing uh you know contentious about that. That one is edit, make a video for your play button PL. Yeah, I'm going to—it's coming in the mail, and I'm moving at the same time, so I'm going to have to come back here and get it from the mailbox from whoever's living here next. It's a drawing. Come on. Yeah, it's not the drawing; it's what it communicates. He's not wrong about that. That even even drawings can make people change their behavior. Read the super chats. Where are the super chats? Help me out. Help me learn. Where are the super chats? Are they just the colorful ones? I'll be around. Stream more. I was annoyed by Mack's communication style, but I'll give the stream a 4.6 out of 10. Uh, okay, whatever. 4.6 is almost average. Not bad for first stream. Keep it up. And the praise but no respect just means he's hating. Okay, imagine how many Subs you'll be at in a year. Yeah, that's amazing. I found both of you very mature and completely agreeing. You should not throw all this by getting banned for stupid reasons. Yeah, that's a it's a good idea. It's just a good idea to not be that contentious. They'll have a camera doorbell and wondering who's taking things. Um, I'm just going to tell them I need to check the mail. It'll be fine. No, I'm not a modern Tucker Max. I don't like Tucker Max because he's his whole attitude was that you should do those things and that it's fun and cool. I did them, and I'm ashamed. I don't I should not have slept with dozens and dozens of women. Love hearing a conversation between you and healthy gamer GG. Dr K would be interested in conversations. Want to hang out, Charlot? I mean, that depends on you. Let's see what you got. Char charlota, that's a pretty name. Pretty name for a pretty girl. Maybe we will hang out. I think you are a little too shy while talking. I didn't want to yell over him. He kind of made me at some points, but I I a Gish Gallop, just gon just Gan to you. A Gish Gallop is when you say a lot of things all at once so that they can't be attacked. If you just go and this and that and then this and this and this and that and it's like, well, wait a minute, what about the first this? He did that a couple points. I wouldn't call it a Gish Gallop because I don't know if he was wrong. Dragon, I wouldn't say he straw man me. I think he's genuinely really genuinely seeing things very differently from the way I see them. I just have I'm in my own head a lot, and it's good to get feedback. He interrupt a lot. Yeah, it was better that you didn't try to steamroll him. Yeah, he just showed who he was. Yeah, I always keep my cool. I I like mackan. I'm G to how do I think I appeared in the conversation? I think I appeared a little bit likely to let him talk over me, but when I got my turn, I think I always came back. I don't think that I had any like big losses there. I just appreciate him having the conversation with me. How is mackan genuine? I just think that these are the things he really feels. I don't think that he's being snaky or or dis disingenuous. Do I consider anthropology a science? I'm not familiar enough to comment. Yeah, David QD, I'm at 126k. Wasn't that that wild? Wasn't that crazy? Used your time more efficiently. Yeah, the pacemaker. Yeah, I'm a level nine. Next time, do timed responses. That's smart. Thank you, Jenna. If you were in your head, how about Mac? He was deep deep deep in his head. Uh, I think that he's very convinced that his perspective is more correct than mine, and in some cases, like when people disagree about a topic that's that broad, there's going to be some times that someone is more correct than someone else, and I'm I'm uh happy to admit that if it's true. Consider a moderator. Yeah, big tasty, you're you're absolutely right. I should have done that. Uh, my life is a little bit crazy, but I will do that soon. Let me see if I can get my camera going. Can I get the is the Brio on? No, I can't get my my webcam is off. Um, I'm going to go soon unless you guys want to um have me say yeah. So so soio, he did say I'll let you speak for 15 minutes, and then it was like three minutes before it was maybe maybe even less than a minute. Um, he's got he's got a personality. He has a personality. Everyone has flaws. He's very is very forceful speaker. He's not a really agreeable. He's not no one would call him too nice, but I don't think that that's a you know makes him like a like a bad person or a lowquality person. It's just a thing that he does, and I think I handled it pretty well. I think I'm pretty comfortable with it. He I he was really rude, always trying to talk over you, maybe, but I'm okay with it. I still like him. Found the weak duckling. Yeah, the ugly duckling. He said weak. He was mischaracterizing my arguments. Okay, he was mischaracterizing my arguments, but I think that he was saying you know that he doesn't know what I believe, and he's got to interpret what I believe, and he doesn't like he gave me the benefit of the doubt, and he's like, I'm just going to give him credit for having the best interpretation possible, and he did, and he came on here, and he was very grown up about it. Like he thought that I might be saying like go choke women, and I don't want people to do that, and he came and talked to me about it. Do a once per week cast. I will. I'm going to do more lives. I like I like doing lives. This is so much more fun than TikTok. Live draw the Apple. Okay, I'll draw the Apple. I will draw the Apple for you. I will I will be drawing the Apple. I am thrwing up for you. That was fun. That was really fun. I really enjoy talking to legitimate scientists about my opinions. I think we are in level four. 79 respect for your appr. Thank you. It was intentional mischaracterization. I don't think it was intentional. I think he's genuine. I think that everything he said was genuine genuinely what he thinks. Okay, I am drawing Apple for you. What kind of apple do you want it to be? Name a kind of apple. The first kind of apple gets drawn. Apple please. Where can I keep up to date with your content? TikTok and YouTube. Robison honeydew. Honeydew is a melon, you silly. Um, okay, where was the first one? Honeydew. Legitimate scientist. Green. Green is not a type. Fuji. Fuji was the first one. Fuji takes it. Good call. Someone said Fiji. Fiji apples. Um, okay, I'm going to draw a big juicy Fuji apple. I'm going to draw I'm going to draw the Apple that I ate in um Washington. I went to Washington State, and I had the best apple that I have ever had, and it was a Fuji apple, and it was gigantic. Um, it was it was like two hours East of Seattle. Oh, you guys can't see. Um, I'll post the Apple for you. I'm sorry, my my um my uh uh software won't recognize my camera because I was on the on the Google meet, so I I here I am drawing an apple, and you guys can't see it. Yeah, they had they had some really good uh they had really good apples in in Washington. It was at a farmers market way in the like towards the center of Washington state, and um what a beautiful place. California is beautiful. Washington is the Pacific Northwest is beautiful. Once I make my millions of dollars, I probably will end up in Washington. It's just so nice. I I have to I have to think about where is there still freedom and and you know do I want to live in a free state or a pretty State? The red states are just there's just not that many there's not that much there's not many things for me to do there, but I am pretty scared about society and where it's going. Um, do you guys want me to draw? Don't go to San Francisco. Too late. Already did. I've been there. I've been to San Francisco. It it fell apart so bad. Choke and apple. Okay. Um, I have to pee, and it's 10 at night. I love you guys, and thank you for being here. Where can I see how many of you there are? How many people are here? Someone tell me where this discussion was insanely helpful to clarify lots of Concepts. Oh, that's great, John. I really appreciate that. I really really appreciate that. Whoa, that was a lot of things. Oh, a thousand. Oh, damn. I can't hang up on a thousand people at Max. There were 1500. I mean, I got to go, but I can hang out a few more minutes for you. Ask me some really good questions. Give me give me a really really good question. Video you decided to take to as clearly stated warnings about generalization. I know it does, but I think that he's still I think he's still you know there are people who don't read the warnings. People are not really that good at reading. I prefer pears because apples turn brown. Um, pears get soft. Teddy Teddy be funny. I'm to to anyone who sent me a Super Chat that I didn't read, I am so sorry. I have no idea how you works. I prefer pears cuz apples turn brown faster than Michael Jackson. Okay, I can't read the rest of that. You're funny. How tall are you? Is one of those questions that I don't answer. I've said it so many times. I'm tall. I'm fine. How do you avoid the ick? I made a video on that. Amok go go to my um TikTok. I made a video on how to avoid the ick. How could I improve the way I think? I struggle not losing my train of thought, especially while while talking. Meditate. Um, so if you want to not lose your train of thought, you've got to you've got to do things like you've got to go focus on something deliberately for a long time. What role does military service play in the bad boy Continuum? It shows that you so military service some women think that it's hot because it's like you're part of a gang. You're saying I am in with the tough crowd, and women see that and they go oo you are you are in a powerful position. What do I do with my free time? I don't have free time. I do this all day every day. I play guitar. Hand necklace. I'll give you a hand necklace. I just I just said I should stop doing BDSM things. I'll I'll give you a I'll give you a necklace, Charlota. Erica. Thank you. Erica thinks I'm cute too. What inspired me to make this channel? I just love talking about this stuff. I need a way to apply my knowledge of psychology. Talk to healthy gamer GG. Okay, who's that? Who's healthy gamer? Would I rather be nice to the person I debate or have people H I missed it. Where did it go? Would you rather be nice to the people you debate or have people see your point of view better? I think that people will see my point of view better if I could appeal to them better. Amanda, if I can if I can appeal to people more people more effectively, then they will see my point of view better, and mackan is telling me, hey, this does not appeal to me, and to a large section of people, and that's really helpful. That's really helpful. So you know I appreciate that. When will I get moderators? As soon as I can figure it out. Daff drunk. How do I know which level of thinking I am? It's too hard for you to guess. Uh, I can help you. We're also making an AI app. We're making an app to to judge you. What do I think of Bitcoin? No idea. Women not in the military. What else do I draw? I don't know. Butterflies and stuff, mostly just people in Fruit. Remember you don't know your audience age. Yes, I do. I know the age. I've got analytics, man. There's a Discord. Yep. I don't watch anime. Someone asked me about anime. How much does being a virgin after 21 affect your chances of dating? A little. I mean, it's not good, Jack. You should have some experience by 21, but if you don't, you'll as long as you are not super picky, you should be able to find a woman who doesn't care. As long as you are if you're good-looking, if you're average or so, if you're even if you're a four, if you're if you're you know good at stuff, you know how to cook, you got a good job, if you have something to offer, women will forgive you for that. What's my favorite fruit? Ooh, I mean, probably Fuji apples. I love apples. I like grapes. I've got grapes in the fridge. I'm having grapes for dinner. What's the most attractive fashion style for female gays? Seriously, button-down shirt, like a solid color, nice quality button-down shirt, roll it up, roll up the sleeves, wear some either some nice pants or some really nice jeans, just conventional, you know, uh uh like a PE coat, nice coat, um conventional amok. Um, go with the button-down shirt and the pants and like a nice pair of uh sunglasses, like a you know one of those expensive ones. Favorite philosopher in y a Play-Doh allegory of the cave. That's the number one thing that people need to know. Play was it play or Aristotle? I think it was Playdoh. Play allegory of the cave. Um, the number one thing that people need to know about philosophy is uh you're looking at Shadows, man. You're looking at shadows, and you think that they're real, and that is sad. I don't like that about people. Let me see if I can get Google meet back up. Is that it? Yes, it is. Look at that. I've done it. I've done it. I've done it. I've done it. Look at how Talent I am. My meeting is ready. Okay, what else? How old are you? I'm old. I'm over 30. It's too much. I'm not I am not in my I'm not in my um element anymore. Like I I did really well for a while, and now I'm just kind of like, well, I guess that was my life, and nobody ever really loved me or anything. Um, do you guys like the Apple? Apple east east din app coach D app East. Good. I'm going to put a little yellow on the apple and a little red and get my colors. Um, you guys are great. What a great audience I have. I'm very appreciative of my audience. Max started with with some decent points. He keeps talking and talking. Math is too nice. I'm not too nice. I'm not too nice. I am doing what I need to do to get the absolute best of people. Uh, Zen In The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. No, I have not, but I think I get it. I've read some um uh reviews of it. Like I've read what people think of Zen In The Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, and in my impression of it, I think that it is kind of just about a modern take on tradition Zen Buddhist philosophy and how it can fit into a modern life. If I'm incorrect about that, please correct me. Um, and I think that that's great. Teddy Teddy be funny, man. You're spending money. I'm a geriatric Millennial. 41, born in 82, ended my marriage of 13 years, never happy, working on being a better man. Well, you're in the right place, Teddy. Um, what are you trying to do to work on being better? Like are you are you fit? Are you getting getting fit? Do you have a great job? Are you working on your mental health? Do you need to work on your mental health? I know a lot of us do. Like I went through a breakdown recently, so you know no no um judgment. I've I've been through it, but what you know how are you opinion on black pill? A black black pill is not helpful. Big tasty, should we be spitballing names for Rebrand? Yes, help me Rebrand. I don't think I can be home maath forever. It's hilarious, but I don't need to stay. It's got to be something that's catchy, and it would should ideally be funny because I'm going to keep you know doing funny stuff as much as possible, but yeah, I need help with that. Yeah, can I make a video about my self-development journey? Yes, I'll write that down. Nero, that's a good idea. Make video about self-development joining. Oh, I feel so good right now. I actually um I have a Shor uh I feel so good right now because I don't have any more things that are uh coming up that are going to take all of my time away from me, and now I get to just I'm going to move next week, and I'm going to just take my time making content, and I am going to um grind. I'm going to grind. I'm going to make money, and I'm going to get a better grip on life, and I'm going to start I really can't wait to get self-maximize done. I know I've been saying it for months, but I really can't wait to just sit down and be like, look, do you want to be likable? Here's the order in which you do these things in this order. Do this first. Do this next. Get it done. That's going to be fun. Let's see what else are we saying? 304 math. Yeah, on that grind set. Mhm. Yes, I am now hungry for apples too. I'm going to go have um grapes and yogurt for din d man. My my voice is high today. I'm stressed. This morning I woke up, and my voice did that like I can't do it right now. It's so weird. My voice sometimes gets tense, and then I can't uh let it all out. There we go. A little bit of blue in the Apple. Little bit of blue greenen n so syyro says what was my job before? I was at Uber driver. Um, I did a lot of uh is this not working? Can you guys see see the Apple? It looks Frozen to me. Is it frozen? Yeah, it looks Frozen. Click click click click click. Is this is that better? Is it moving? Okay, maybe it's moving. Probably because you're all tabbed. Yeah, yeah. Still frame video is frozen. Tell me if it starts moving. I'm trying stuff. We good. It's moving. Read Super Chat. Okay, maroon, tell me how do I read super chats? How do I read them? Oh oh okay. Chased germ, what is your opinion on no fap abstinence or just desexualizing yourself in general? Okay, so Chase germ, I tried nofap three times in my life. It was unpleasant, and it gave me no benefit benefits. I do not know if that is consistent for anyone. I don't know if anyone's ever had benefits from it, but for me, I just kind of got frustrated, and I felt like physical pain and discomfort, and then I I ended it. I ended nofap, and I felt better, and I got more done. I didn't feel any benefit at all. That's all I can tell you that it didn't work for me. Um, desexualizing yourself in general, I don't think is a good idea. I think that the sex drive is at the root of human endeavor, and I think that who you want to have sex with and what way you accomplish it is basically the story of humanity unfolding, so I don't think that getting rid of your sexuality is good. 304 math. Robinson, can I click these away after I see them? Remove uh okay. Chase germ, who's my favorite psych psychologist and why is it Carl gusta young? I think that you're right about that. I don't think that young is beatable. Young was um he was like king of the king of the autists. He was an INTJ, kind of like I'm just going to go into my mind and find what's there and uh and report back to all of you. Carl Young is the guy I have no um no additions to make on that. Like it's not Jordan Peterson. You know, I don't I don't know even who else like what other great psychologists have there been? It's not Freud. It's definitely not Freud. Freud was a little loopy. He was just kind of like you know Focus too much on one thing. Let's see. Dimitri Dimitri vanyukov uh oh yeah, that was the one I just answered. I'm a geriatric Millennial. Yeah, I got to that one. I saw you at 40K Subs with like 10 videos. That was a few weeks ago. My content is legendary. I'm doing great. Thank you for no noticing. Um, and I do have to be careful not

To lose it, Mackin's right about that. Too is this? Is this it? Is it going now? Is it frozen? Is it still? Is it frozen? Pbra my opinion on porn, Samuel, is that it should be banned. No one should be making porn. It's overwhelmingly bad for you to watch it. It's overwhelmingly bad for the actors in it. It's a bad industry. It's surrounded with, uh, drugs and violence, and it's just no porn. I, I don't watch it. I haven't watched porn in a very long time. I think it should be like, I support, I, I don't know what you can say on YouTube, but I, I don't support porn. I don't like it at all, man.

I've got to refresh this like every—let me just see if I can do this. Can I pop this over here and then put—that's OBS, that's a Google Meet, oh, that's the live stream. Okay, which platform to talk about level 9 stuff on? How to prove that? Discord. Mr. Cookie, go to Discord if you want to talk about levels with me and everyone else who thinks that they're in the higher levels. Go to Discord. There's a Time Army room, and we're talking there. Did I go to college? Yes, twice. I went to grad [Applause] school. We should do an OnlyFans together, man. Charlot is going for it; she's going right for the throat. We should do an OnlyFans together. We can just not post them. Yeah, that sounds good. We'll just watch it ourselves.

What's wrong with the name? It's unappealing to a lot of people, especially women. Uh, the Discord link, Box shoes, um, stay in the call. The Discord link is in my linktree, which is in my bio. It's the only tab in my bio. When I tab out, it freezes. That is frustrating; that is bad. I think you have to remember the controversial style of delivery is a key reason; changing too quickly might stagnate your growth. Okay, Victor, I think you're right, but I think that I need to become more skillful about the controversial style of delivery. Did I study psych? Yes, I did. What do you derive your personal morality from? Um, Abe, Abe asked me, what do I direct your personal morality from? That has changed a lot over time, has changed a lot, and I would say currently I derive my personal morality from, um, from the experience of pleasure and pain. We all have experiences of, of things that we like experiencing and things we don't like experiencing. We are all trying to have more good and less bad, and that's all that life is. That's all it is. All it is is we are trying to have good feelings and not have bad feelings, and everything else is just a conversation about—I accidentally didn't draw a Fuji apple. I'm sorry. Um, I just went and drew a Granny Smith. Um, all that, all that morality is is a conversation about who gets to feel good and who has to feel bad, and when and where and why, man. How, that's all that it is. If you just sit with that and chew on that for a while, you're not going to find any flaws in that argument. Because if you're talking about like politics or like, like welfare or something, it's a conversation about who do we take money from and who do we give it to. And if you're talking about legalizing drugs, it's like, well, these people, they want the good feeling, but is it, is it going to give more good or more bad to society overall? And, and if you're talking about just anything, things like, uh, the right to choose or whatever—I'm not really—not sure what you can say on YouTube—if you're talking about war, like war sometimes is just really aggressive and, um, nasty and evil, and it's just like, let's go hurt those people and take their stuff. But sometimes war is really necessary in order to prevent a greater suffering, or maybe it's self-defensive; maybe there's some who's saying we're going to come take your stuff, and then you got to stop them. Um, and all of that, all of it, all of it is just a big conversation about who gets to feel what and why. We want to feel good by taking your land, well, we, that would feel bad for us, so who gets to feel good and who gets to feel bad? That is going to be based on a violent contest. That's where I derive my morality from. I think of it all as a conversation that we are constantly having with each other about who can and can't and should and shouldn't and must and mustn't feel good and feel bad, and when and where and why and how. That's what you can derive all your values from. And my values are, um, my personal values. What, what makes me feel good is when we solve the problems of, you know, living in a world that's over our heads. We solve the problem of suffering by not lacking skill in the ways that we organize our world. We, we have to have the right people in the right places to be able to do what needs to be done so that people are not experiencing pain and suffering. And we're right now having a conversation in our society that is ignoring those things and just saying, well, we're going to select people based on, um, you know, things other than their abilities to, to be here and to be there and, and, and to have this and to have that, and, um, I think that that's had pretty big effects on the world, uh, and, um, I would, I would like to see, I would like to create and live in a world that has a much more recognition of, uh, like this, this—if we arrange things this particular way, it just produces a better result—like results-driven, results-driven thinking, realistic results-driven thinking. I'm really tired of hearing, oh, if only we do the thing that didn't work, if only we do it more, then it'll work. Like, hey, we did the thing, and everything got worse. Let's do it more; it'll work, it'll work, you know, this time. I'm tired of hearing that. That was a really long answer.

Why appeal to women? A fungi, because I want to get through to them. I want to speak to them. I want to have conversations with women, and I want to, I want to talk to them about, um, what they believe and why and where, where they came to those conclusions and what they know and what they think they know and what they do and don't know. Um, I want to talk to women. I enjoy talking to women. My favorite conversations have always been with women. Um, you know, I don't hate them. I'm not, I'm not just like, women suck. I just, I really hate the way that they've treated me and also a lot of men that I know, and I think that a lot of that comes from really bad, uh, cultural messages. Crazy hot Matrix. I have small tweaks to it, but I think his message is, uh, pretty close to on the money. The realness of your channel is a breath of fresh air. Thank you, Crypto Paradigm. Um, the realness of your channel is a breath of fresh air in a sea of social media s-word. I can't say it, but, um, not even sure if I'm allowed to swear, but, uh, what was I saying? Women, um, like appealing to women and getting them to, to have conversations with me. Like, I was on the whatever podcast recently, if you guys haven't seen it, go to their page and watch it. I had a conversation with an OnlyFans girl, and I told her, you know, I'm concerned about your future and that you may be, you know, underestimating how much men will reject you for having that in your past, and she listened a little and considered what I had to say, and when I left, she said that she, you know, liked talking to me, and it was like, I, okay, like I made an impact on one person. I want to do that. I want to have that conversation again and again. That's why I appeal to women. That's why the H math Discord is not accepting invite. H I, I'll try; I'll work on it, Teddy. I'm sorry. It's always the same link; it's always the same link. I promise that's the link. I don't know why it's not working, but I promise that's the link. Dimitri, I saw you at 40K. Favorite psychologist. Realness of your channel is—that all of them—top chat, live chat, all messages top. I was able to join no issue. Yeah, you see some people don't have a problem. I have to go; I really have to go to the bathroom. I got a pee. Um, the whatever podcast is on YouTube. How math you are so developed in some ways. Daft, daed drunk in some ways. I'm very developed in other ways. I am, uh, childish. I'm lopsided. I don't have very much, um, adultness in my ability to, uh, like provide a household or lead a company or run a team or anything like that. Like, I'm really good at delegating things and thinking abstractly and giving the orders that need to be given, but I am not very good at getting myself into a position where people listen to me. That I'm not very good at—like what you just saw with Mackan tonight. He is polite to me, and we have a good relationship. It's not like he's swearing at me in my DMs or anything, but he was pretty disgusted with the way that I communicate myself, and I have, um, some problems where I cause that effect in a large number of people. And this is probably a significant portion of the reason that I have always had a low degree of, um, financial, you know, employment success. That's probably a good portion of the reason. Uh, so yeah, I'm very developed in some ways. Like Mack recognized that I was being very adult about when I said I felt like the mistake was attacked and not me. Um, I'm good at that. What I'm not good at is making people feel like, hey, I should be around this guy more. That I'm not good at—I'm too real. I'm too—I'm just too real. That's the problem. That's definitely all right. I made it into a Fuji apple. Does it look delicious? Is a psych degree worth getting? Overwhelmingly no. Star 0890 whatever. I, if you're, if you're going to get a psych degree and you don't know specifically what you're going to do with it, it's a bad—that's a bad mistake. Um, you, you should, if you want to get a psych degree, you should have a plan for how you're going to turn it into money, and you should know that it is, um, highly actionable and likely to work. If you can't do that, then don't get a psych degree. Don't just, don't just get a degree in Psychology and just go like, boy, I hope this works. Do not do that. Oh my God, do not do that. Make sure that you know how it's going to pay off. All right, can't say that loud enough.

Do you think being comfortable socially and with women helps bring meaning to your life? Absolutely, Jesse Jones. Yes, that's one of the main things that has brought meaning to my life. You can't just be by yourself all the time. Yeah, learning to be comfortable with women and in social situations has, uh, completely transformed my life from like a regrettable sad thing into an exciting adventure. It's turned—turned it completely upside down. If you don't have that skill, you need it. You need it. I mean, I'm, I'm not sure if that's what you're asking. Being comfortable socially with women helps bring meaning to your life? Yeah, absolutely. Uh-huh. Humans optimize for partners that reduce entropy in their lives. Looks, personality says are all proxies, indicators of that. That's a good perspective. Yeah, reducing—what did you say? SVO. Um, humans optimize partners that reduce entropy. Yeah, as a general principle, that's what we're all kind of do—we're all kind of trying to do. We're all trying to orient ourselves towards self-replication, which is anti-entropic, um, which is kind of crazy when you think about it. That if, if we truly do live in an entropic universe, then we're kind of just giving God the finger by existing. It's like, oh yeah, I'm going to have, have kids; I'm going to have three of them. Um, and yeah, of course, we would select for partners who help us do that. Yep. I have never had a long-term partner who reduced entropy in my life. Uh, Teddy, be funny. Got the shadow work journal that I talked about in a previous video. Do you like it? I like mine; I use it. I sit there, and I scribble in it. Do you ever chat in your, in your server? VCD. What's VC? I use the Discord, if that's what you're asking. Name change: The Doodle Llama. Okay, be serious. I appreciate it, but like, nothing is funnier than H math. Have I read good books recently? I haven't read a book in like over two years. I have been mostly, um, struggling with the fallout of Co—like I don't think I read anything since before Co. I don't think I've read like a book since before Co. I've been, I've been dealing with what it did to my life. It, it burned my life down. I lost everything; it was awful. Smudge the lines. I can't; it's colored pencil; it doesn't smudge. Where can we find the Discord? It's in my linktree; it's in the linktree in my bio here. Let's put that here: Discord, um, Time Army. All right, Time Army. I'm just going to go—Discord link. Ho math with no underscore. I know that's very confusing. Link. Slth. They still smudge a bit; it's used to blend. I had colored pencil. Do they smudge? Ah, it's very subtle; it's very subtle, and I don't like it. I like the clear lines better, and I got some crap on my finger. You, you did this to me. I shouldn't put my fingerprint on the camera; they'll know who I am. The shadow journal for the name? What about it? Carl. Carl hung. That's funny. What mistakes do I make in my relationships? Okay, I make fewer mistakes in my relationships as time goes on. Grap shade. I make fewer and fewer mistakes, but the ones that I do make are mostly, mostly being honest about things that I know she's sensitive about. I know she doesn't want to hear the truth; I know she doesn't want to hear it, and I go, honey, the truth is—I don't call them honey; I, I don't use a lot of pet words. Um, sometimes I say—I don't know—whatever feels right, but I don't, I don't do a lot of like honey or B—I know she doesn't want to hear it, and I say it anyway because I'm like, the truth is important, and that is bad. Um, another mistake I make in my relationships is I don't invest very much money. I don't spend money. I'm really careful about—like I've never made very much money. I don't take them out for treats and buy presents. That's a mistake. What, what other mistakes do I make? Um, I relax too soon, uh, I, I—so mistakes—I relax too soon, which means that I, uh, I start showing my weaknesses before we've gotten to a point where she, she's ready to deal with them, and I go, well, like we love each other, right? And she's like, not that much—like I don't need, I don't need to be dealing with this much of your problems. Like, I, I kind of unload too soon, and I should hold it in longer. It's just too much for most people. Um, too honest. Do you guys want me to stay, stick around and talk to you? 'Cause I got to get some water. Someone said, how did Co burn your life down? Um, Ed Ying, I had a, uh, my entire life was built around something that you have to do in public. My entire life, so when Covid hit, I couldn't do that anymore, and I didn't have a job, I didn't have income. I had to get on unemployment, um, and I was just locked in a studio apartment for two years. It was awful. Um, relax too soon. If you guys want to stay on, I'll stay on, but I need to get water, so I'm going to get up, and if you guys all leave, I won't blame you. I'm just going to kind of like—we'll be—I'll just do this—we'll, we'll be—we'll be after these messages, we'll be right back. Okay. Okay, zoom in on it. No, I can't; I'll just have to leave it there. Do you recommend white AF1? I will have to—I'm gonna—okay, I'll be back real soon. Real soon. I'll be back. I'm almost backing; I'm returning. My voice is getting closer. I am here to provide you with more Apple entertainment. Okay, I have more people to speak to. All right, I'm back. I have more things to say to you now. You've been so hurt, dude. You, who talk? I'm assuming that you guys are all talking to me. Do people talk to each other in the chat, or are you always talking to me? Yikes. I needed that; I was very dry. Talk to myself. Who can tell? Honestly, mostly to you. Yeah, okay. Is it good that you take deferring ideas from your—oh, it is good that you take deferring ideas from your current ones into account instead of getting looped into echo chambers. Yeah, I don't like echo chambers, but the internet kind of—it almost forces you—yeah. The hydration was necessary; my voice is all dry. How often I'm in the Discord? It is—it's inconsistent, Ashton. I'm—I'm sometimes I hang out there all day, and I'll type like 200 messages, and sometimes I go three days and I skip it. It's inconsistent. So if you're subscribed to math class on, on, uh, Patreon, the promise I make is that I'll be in that room preferentially, and I'll be there when I'm there, and sometimes it's a lot, and sometimes it's not much, um, but you know, I go there. I go there preferentially. It's, it's the, it's the room I always check first. Can't be getting dried out. Every community is an echo chamber. That's not true. Um, there are some places that people go, like, like church. There are a lot of, um, uh, pastors and, um, reverends and, and such who their whole job really is to make sure that people are not just telling themselves that they're right about everything, and they're like, this is what God wants, you know. It's not every community that's an echo chamber. You're right that they tend to be that way, but it's, it's not strictly true. HTH. Do you worry that the internet will figure out who you are? So anybody—I think anybody who knows who I am will probably not—they, they'll see that I'm going to the effort to make sure that, that I don't get identified, and I don't know anybody who would want to, um, cause me difficulty by revealing me, and oh yeah, let's go, let's like, sic the internet on him. I don't know anyone who would want to do that. I don't have enemies. Um, someone says, when are you doing privates again? Do you mean coaching sessions? I don't know when I'm going to do them again. I, right now, cannot afford to. I, I, I just don't have the time. Jezebel curve was a great joke. Yeah. Gabber, gabber chats. Why do they go away? Some of them are still there, and some of them are not there anymore. Do a podcast. Who's Sisyphus? 5ish. Grape shade says, how did you deal with the dread before this success? Oh, dude, I didn't deal with anything. How did I deal with—I was collapsed constantly. I was just in bed at 4: in that afternoon with Gatorade. Like, there was no dealing with anything. It was just like, this is bad; this is bad. I put—I spent my whole life trying to become something worthwhile, and it just got—just—just torn away from me. Um, I didn't deal with anything, man. What, what can I, what, what else can I draw for you though? Stumbled upon this live stream from nearly the start. Definitely intelligent and intriguing. Thank you, Clay Award. Looking forward to seeing more of my content. I appreciate you. Um, I'm going to draw your name since nobody has really great ideas about what I should draw. I'm going to say Clay, Clay Ward. I'm G to write it down so I don't forget: Clayward. Thank you, Clay. You're a lovely person. I love your comments like that. I like it when people appreciate me. Like Mackan was pretty mad at me for the, the harm that he thinks I'm doing, and, uh, I get it, um, and I appreciate it that he's, you know, doing what he thinks is the right thing to do in the world, but man, I love the praise. I love the praise; I love it. It's so fun for people to say that they like me because I didn't get a lot of that growing up, and now I have a lot of it. Tell me more; also tell me if you have a problem with me too. Just don't say incel; just don't go—yeah, it's the incel channel. Um, but like Mack did, where he said, hey, here's my concerns about you. If you have that, tell me that, 'cause I, I like to self-improve. There isn't going to be room for the Y, so I'm going to have it get cut off and fall off the page because I do not plan ahead of time. Clay, the A is too big. You see what I mean? I never think ahead. I mean, that's not true; it's not true that I never think ahead; it's that I haven't been able to think ahead for, uh, a little while. Black psycho tiger cat math. That's funny; that's kind of funny. I'm not sure who's going to get it, but I'll consider it. Math, the name math. This is just the H math hydration channel. Oh my God, I had too much coffee today. Yeah, Stefano, it's still going on. I'm just enjoying the attention people are sending me—attention and, and chats. Yay. I'm in this Discord, and I love it. Great; I'll see you there. Send, send me some messages; tag me. Tag me to do—go—I don't, I don't really know how to use Discord, but I think if you just go like—if you do this—if you go—if you go @ right @hoemath, and then you write like whatever—I like, uh, op—I think that I'll see it, and I check those, so do that. What is the meaning of life? Also, you coach me for 150 an hour, three times a week? No, I'm sorry, but my rate is already beyond that. My, my rate for life coaching was at 160 before I shut it down, and demand has skyrocketed, so it's probably going to be more, I'm sorry to say, um, but I also don't know when I'm opening it back up, so like, I'm very popular, and, um, sometimes I will do free life coaching for people if I, if I think that you need it or it'll help you or whatever, so maybe—I mean, just keep in touch, you know, keep in touch. Maybe I'll give you a free one. Thanks for the videos. Since watching your content, got single—a great girlfriend. That's great. Did you—how did it help, Brandon? Did I—what exactly—what exactly did you, um, hear from me that helps you do it? That's exactly what I want to hear. You don't have to Super Chat it; I'll just look for you. I know your name is Brandon. I appreciate the Super Chats. Any advice on being more social? I'm not scared to talk to people; I just see no reason to unless I actually have something solid to say. Okay, so the reason to be social is just because you need people in your life. You don't need a reason. That's—plus I don't initiate random small talk. Yeah, you don't have to initiate small talk. So socks off. If you go to my TikTok and you watch, uh, you watch the video called, um, the bird test, that will tell you everything that you need to know about how to talk to people. You find things that you're both interested in; talk about those, and, um, someone asked me, is $5,000 worth an hour? Yes, I'll do—I'll do it for five grand, absolutely. Um, what you do, socks off, is that you're—here's you—right there's a man, and here's a woman—the hair—and, uh, I'll color them. Why not? We got time—not all the time in the world. I can't wait to move; I hate this place that I'm in pretty bad, and my next place is cozy. All right, so what you do when you want to socialize is you go out to a place where socializing is expected. You can do it alone; you can do it with friends, but you go out, and what you, you say is—you don't say like, hey, I like you; I am interested in you; you are attractive. What you do is you talk about—isn't this—and then if she goes, yeah—if she

Goes like, yes, I want to talk to you about the Apple. I really want to talk to you about the Apple, then now you have a friend, but if she goes like, um, yeah, you know, whatever, then you just don't talk to her, and then you move on. You talk to people until you get like a, "Oh, I would love to talk to you about the Apple, or about the bird, or whatever." Uh, that's the letter M; it's supposed to be like a one of these, you know, birds flying away in the [Music] distance.

Um, socialize, cuz it's healthy for you. You don't need a reason; it's just like saying that you don't need a reason to eat or to work or anything like that. It's um, it's a uh, something that most of us have to do. Like, I haven't been socializing for well over a year now, and it's got some pretty negative effects. It's got some like, some definite negative effects on my psyche and on my health, and um, like I experience a lot of that lonely feeling, and then I've got to like, I find myself making up for with food and beer, and um, it's just, it isn't good. It's you got to have some people; most of us got to have some people. Like, there's some people that have larger and smaller social needs. I unfortunately, I think, larger than average social needs; like I need people around me, and I don't like it. I wish I could just be alone all the time, because people are have been so disappointing.

Um, so find something socks off, find something that you like, and then go find the people who like it. That's my advice for being more social. Find things that you like; find the people that like those things: Pizza, anime—don't watch anime, stay away from anime—basketball, um, bad Minton, good Minton. They should—I've—how did—how did bad Minton succeed against good Minton? That's just how—that's how it always goes; that's capitalism for you. We used to have goodmon, um, but yeah, things like that. Talk to people about lifting weights or canoeing, or um, there was one time I went hiking by myself, and there was a guy on the hiking track Trail coming down, and I was going up, and we just had a great conversation because we were both interested in hiking enough to go way out to this remote Park. Like, it was really, really—it was like 6 hours from where I live, and um, it was about that far from where he lived too, in a different direction, and um, just we—we had a great chat. He showed me his map, and we talked about how they made the map, and we talked about where he was from and where I was from, and it was all based on the fact that we both just went out to this park, you know. It's not like I—like I want to—like I want the guy to move in with me or anything; it's just like, do you like the outside? I like the outside, and now you're talking to somebody. Do that.

Um, revon 54 says, "I appreciate you're busy." Okay, 36. I got to that one. 3651, you vid on dating Zone and level of Consciousness enlightened me. I appreciate you saying so. Thank you. Date autistic, active mask, rest solo, yes, SL, no. I cannot—I can't figure out what you mean. Date autistic, active mask, what does that mean? Holy hell, so thirsty. I tried r rise Riz. I tried to understand you. I—I don't get the thanks for the video. Since watching your content, I've gone from single—oh yeah, oh, you already said that, and you just paid me another five bucks to say it. Well, thank you. Thanks for the money. Go to church, guys. Women who believe in that there's something greater, yes. Church girls are better. Church girls are better than non-church girls, in general, in general, broadly, in general. I think that church girls are better, um, because they do invest their morality and something Beyond themselves. There's a lot of girls I've met who are really smart and really pretty and really nice, but they just don't believe that there's really any reason not to be bad, and so when they're faced with the temptation to be bad, they just go like, "Well, I'm going to get away with it." And believing that you're not going to get away with it is the right thing to do. You should not ever believe that you're going to get away with it. You shouldn't—no one should ever believe they're going to get away with it. My mic is choppy. I think that means it's time to go. What do you guys think? The mic is not choppy. Okay, maybe it's that guy then. Someone said, "420?" Not for me. No, I don't—I don't do that. Never liked it. Only way avoid hate is analyze men. Yeah, I mean, analyzing people the way that I do it is—it's helpful, I think. I like the way that this Mack and chat went. I think it went—I think it went fine. Mike is good. Do you have social skills growing up? No, uh-uh. Your name is too hard to say; it's just a bunch of letters, he says. Did you have social skills growing up? Absolutely not. Bottom of the barrel. I was a disaster. I was a rolling exploding disaster. Um, I did not have social skills until I was about 24. Deaded fool says, "I did well." Thank you. Faith is important. Yeah. How did I learn about spiral Dynamics? Asur, not kidding, I just—when I—when I was unemployed during the 2008—um, I'll just put SD for spiral Dynamics. When I was unemployed in 2008 because of the world shutting down, you know, one of the many times the world has shut down in my life, uh, I just went to the library. I just seriously went to the library, and I saw a book called, uh, *Theory of Everything*. *Theory of Everything*, and that was it. I picked it up, and I was like, "This guy looks like he is completely full of himself. He's like, 'I wrote a Theory of Everything.' Oh my God, I am amazing!" And I read it, uh, uh, front to back, and then I said, "Okay, I need to make my life be about this," and that was integral Theory and spiral Dynamics. Um, integral—I got to stop writing why I'm talking. Integral Theory and spiral Dynamics was a part of that; that's the levels part. I just went to the library. Do I write in a journal? I used to. I've done a lot of journaling. I have hundreds of pages of journals. As a single father, any advice on finding an adequate partner? Seems like women are less likely to date single parents. Yeah, they are less likely to date single dads. Um, look for a single mom, man. That's your number one choice. It's like, you got a kid, I got a kid. All right, it's like, if you both have AIDS—well, we're both in this; you're just—you're there already. How did you develop social skills? Israel Lugo Torres asks. Um, I developed social skills by putting myself in a high-pressure environment. So you know how athletes will go to high altitudes to train? I just went to like bars and clubs. So there was, you know, me alone at home and being sad. Let's do this. Sad house, sad, right? And then there was big rooms full of people with lights and lights and people partying. Oh yeah, right. I just would go—I would just go like, "I've never done this before," but I would just go there and just be like, "Hi, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't know what I'm doing here," and people would go, "Ha ha ha," and then I just kept doing that until I was one of these people. I just learned like in the heaviest pressure environment where it's like, okay, everyone's looking at you, you're in public, everyone's drinking, and people are trying to have sex with each other, and this is it; this is where social things happen, and I just went out, and I was bad at it until I wasn't bad at it. Um, not that I'm recommending drinking or going to clubs or anything, but if you want to get good at something, do it. If you want to get good at something, do the thing. Great beat boxing, someone says. Thank [Laughter] you. Don't get me started. Go to a karaoke bar. Can all learn something here. What is one movie you'd recommend everyone watch? Death to smoochi, Seth Bailey. Death to smoochi. Watch *DEATH* to smoochi. Watch, okay, here we go. Watch *DEATH* to smoochi. It is such a great—um, it's such a great little—what am I trying to say? The way that they focus on on Good and Evil and and how they manifest themselves in people and how you can get them confused for one another, and and the way that that there are some people in the movie that are so evil and we know, but the characters don't always know, and there's some people that are so good, but we know, but the characters don't always know. The way that it's so—it's just really well done, and Edward Norton's a good actor, and Danny DeVito's in it, and Robin Williams, and he was great. Darude Sandstorm. I can't do it; I just sound like I'm like a buzzard or something. Uh, I do not play any video games. No. Um, I have not—I have not bought a video game since *Halo 2*. That was the last video game I ever bought, *Halo 2* for the—for X—for the old—the original Xbox. I quit video games after that. Over 30. I'm over 30. I'm—I'm old. My life sucks. Well, I mean, it used to; it's great now. Yeah, I'm still streaming. I'm having fun talking to people. Am I—I'm using this in my classroom. Any suggestions? I'm right now just offering my perspective on the level they are on that day and showing your videos. How are you evaluating levels, Mr. Hart? How are you doing it? Because it's—it can be very difficult to tell one from another, and you usually—like when you're evaluating levels, it's usually like, um, like two, three, four, five, six, seven; it's usually like you can confuse these for each other, and these—it's the even—it's the adjacent even ones. Like, usually people don't confuse six with two, usually, although some—like this one happens sometimes, and six with three happens sometimes, but other than that, it's usually 3 to 5 and um, 5 to 7. Like, a lot of people will say that they're at seven when they're at five because they see the individualistic nature of it, and a lot of people will um, think they're at six, but they're really at four; like they're actually just following, you know, "This is what everyone around me says to do," and they're saying, "Oh, it's because I recognize the individualistic nature of morality," and it's not really true. Um, I do want to publish a book, *G to Mind*. Um, oh, I missed some things. Individ—we hope to keep you as much company as we can. Thank you for the Insight you've learned and the phenomenal art to convey the way you conceptualize the way you see dating, trans. Thank you. I appreciate it. I Endeavor to be better at it. I'm going—I'm listening to Mack a little at Le a little. How quickly did my income increase as you became popular? So the first month I made like $1,000, and then the second month it was like six, and now I'm in the third month, and it's more than six. So like, doing pretty good, Stephen, pretty good. H math, date autistic girl, never drop your mask, stability, rest at your own separate home so you can maintain your mask at all times. Okay, I see what you're saying, RZ. Um, never drop your mask, stability, or on un separate homes, you maintain your mask at all times. You're talking about—you're talking about structuring a dating life around your social difficulties. That's one way to do it; that's one way to do it. I recommend just growing as a person if you can rather than just saying, "I'm limited forever." I recommend just growing as a person. Lean into yourself. Even if you change your channel, you should trademark. Yes, I should. I am selling merchandise already, Jeffrey, but I need to trademark ASAP. Are my videos based on science? Sometimes. So my videos are based on—my videos are based on the things that I understand. Some of the things that I understand come from science. So for example, one of the things that Mackin um, said about me that I did not get a chance to respond to uh, was that I uh, uh, you know, misstated how long ago—um, like we were—we were talking about how the—the aggressive traits are desirable to women, and he said that ever since we became humans and we evolved from, you know, separated from chimpanzees, uh, five million years ago, I think he said that we have been becoming less aggressive and more uh, you know, socialized and that sort of thing, and um, I didn't get a chance to say, "Well, you know, we maintained some of the instincts from before then. Like, instincts don't go away just cuz 5 million years passes. It's—it's about whether or not the—their—the environment, you know, conducts the instincts." So for sure, sometimes science informs my videos, but I'm—I'm not making the claim that I am a scientist or or a science expert. What I—what claim I am making is that I am a psychology expert. I know a whole lot about how the mind works, and I have done a lot of work on my mind, um, so I'm able to tell you lots of things about unconsciousness and about images and about Association and about projection and about Shadow work. I would say that like this is roughly like psychology influences a lot, and then uh, what another thing Mackin said was personal experience, and um, I think that that informs it a little bit. I—I don't think that it's really about my personal experience. I think that my personal experiences sometimes confirm and sometimes uh, you know, clash with the things that I've learned through science and mostly psychology. My personal experience is not the basis for what I do. The—the basis for what I do is deep psychology, developmental psychology. So I'm not like reading science papers and going like, "Oh, this science paper says—" What I'm doing is I'm looking at things that people are doing, and I'm saying, "Here's what's in their minds that's why they're doing that. This is what—because this is how the mind works." That's the basis. I hope that that is clear. I hope that I've clarified that for you. Slappy says, "I'm 23 and I'm going bald. Should I on a live?" No, uh, you—you can—there are women who like bald. It's going to be a different set of women, but there are women who like it just fine. Just lift weights, man. I did study Psych in college, KB. I did. Yeah, I have a graduate degree in Psychology. Yes, developmental psych. Mero Mero Mero Murphy says, "You shouldn't have let Lack and Lury speak to you in that tone. His jealousy and envy of your success was so transparent." I'm okay with it. I'm okay with the way that he spoke to me because I understand what—what—what his motivations are. I get it. Just going to draw him again, dra—his—his gal from Street Fighter [Music] haircut. I'm hoping that you all know the Street Fighter 2 music. Just go mm. I'll just do—I'm going to do a crossover here with the—with Phoenix right. I'm just going to go, "Objection!" I've never played Phoenix right. I've only ever seen images of it. Like, it's been—it was big in the meme—in the meme—Mema verse for a while. Um, do you guys think Mack is a good-looking guy? I don't know what women find attractive anymore. I—I think of him as a pretty good-look guy, but I said that to some women, and they were like, "I don't know. I thought that he was like uh, you know, like a very classically—classically good-looking guy." Some people love the peard look. Yeah. How come the ho ain't loyal? No one's loyal, Elijah. No one is 100% loyal. We're not born that way. Life is—life is—is um, treacherous. Life is treacherous, and when I say life, I don't mean like the conditions we live in; I mean like living things are treacherous. They want to survive. There's no—in—in—in order—in order for life to exist, we have to secure material to exist from; like we've got to chew things up and eat them, and then we have to go hide our bodies in houses to stay safe and get out of the rain. Like, we—we need material, and if there's ever a time when there's not enough material, then we have to fight over it. It's like, life is just treacherous. So like, loyalty is not—it's not a really good strategy for most of evolution. Loyalty is something that only comes online like late in the mammalian epoch. There's not a lot of loyalty and other—like I suppose there's some birds that maybe have some degree of loyalty. Tokyo. I'm not a psychology student; I'm a psychology graduate. That ok, cubid study said that women aren't attracted to most men. Also, women don't care about looks much. H. There's so much—there's so much like, "Women care about looks," "They don't care about looks." There's so much of that. Where am I? So Nero, where am I on the attractiveness scale? I would give myself a six right now. There are—there are a lot of women who tell me that I'm very, very attractive, but most of them don't really respond anymore. I used to be an eight, and I know that because I lived this life where I had like just tons and tons of connections with like mostly sixes and fives, but also a few fours, one or two threes that I wish I hadn't, you know, and then there was a several tens. Like, there were—there were a few girls who I would—were straight tens. I would say probably at least two, depending on how you measure it, but there—there were a couple girls who were flawless, um, and you know, I didn't have to do anything; they just liked me for who I was. So I used to be as high as an eight, but I think I'm older now and been through some tough times, and it shows. So I've fallen—I'm okay with it. I had my time, you know. Six seems good for a guy in his 30s. Yeah, I think that it's good for a guy in my 30s. So Ashton, you say you have self-maximized and you're still unhappy. Tell me, what are—what are you missing in life? What would you need in order to be happy? Uh oh, Max sell. Where do humans cheat on their Partners when everything seems perfect? Well, men desire more mates; they're always tempted to have more mates, and women are always um, tempted to trade up. Good-looking for my age. Yeah, Erica. Yeah, that's what people say. They say that I look young for my age, and a lot of people say that I have a nice face. I have nice lips and stuff. Do I ever want kids? I think so. I mean, I—now that I have the potential for making a lot of money, and I—I like—I might—I might become a millionaire, you know. I might become a millionaire with this, and if I do, I really don't see any reason why I wouldn't want to find a really lovely woman and um, and make some more copies of myself, and then she can, you know, do the dishes and stuff, and I'll just go like, "Here's the money." You know, Ma had some good points. He did. Parts of his arguments seemed bity. I'm trying not to lose that comment. Like, if the stats were reversed, I'm s—yeah, he did that several times. He sort of made that attack on me where it's like, "You're biased," um, and I think I did a pretty good job of demonstrating that I'm not biased, but the—the—the complexity of everything he's talking about about who lies more and how you can tell and why—why would they lie more in this direction and not in that direction? It's like, to me, it seems like there's a possibility that women would say, "Oh, no, I never cheat on my partner," but yeah, I'm a good mate poacher. Like, I think that that's—makes sense. I think it's reasonable to believe that that's a possibility. I'm not drawing any conclusions; I'm just saying like, if you think about the dark aspects of female psychology, I could see them saying—I could see them cheating and saying, "I don't cheat," and I could see them mate poaching and being proud about it. Yeah, I did it; I mate poached. I could see that. So I don't know. Do I still have muscles? Yes, yes. I do not—as much—not as much as I used to, but yeah. Funny dolphin. I do. No, that is unlikely. I just got here. Can you give me the quick 15-sec recap of the arguments? No, I'm sorry, Bruno. I can't—I cannot do it in 15 seconds. Basically, Mack just said like, "Here's what you're saying that I think is unhelpful," and I said, "Well, here's how I see it," and we both made some really good points, but I think that he's going to—I think he's going to be an overall good thing in my life. Um, can you—so Gloops says, "Can you speak on your process of using your mind maps? Making mind maps. How do you figure out what symbols to use so quickly and the relations between them?" I don't know; I just kind of see it in my head. Like, give me something to draw right now, and I'll show you the process, Gloops. I'm looking for your—your next comment. Elijah Enval says, "499 is an outgoing, not-shy person. How do you find not-trash people? Um, high-quality, done the work, self-respecting people." Okay, if you want to filter out low-quality people, Elijah, go to places that exclude people who have not achieved difficult things. Okay, the reason that college is a thing is because if you can get through four years of college, that proves that you can get through four years of college. There are filters, and this is like four—four years of difficult stuff, and also paying a lot of money, right? That's—that's two filters, really, that you got to—you have to trust that you can pay this back later, and so a lot of people just are not going to make it through that filter. "Oh, I can't do that for 4 years." Like, you'd be surprised how many people could not get through even an easy college program. You would be surprised. So hang out with people who have degrees, hang out with people who've accomplished something, hang out with people who are, you know, good at things, hang out with people who have nice homes. It doesn't guarantee that they'll be better, but like, there will still be some bad ones, but it'll be better over here. It's just people who can do difficult things well are usually better people. If a guy is having trouble getting a date, send out the vibe that you're looking to get married, and it will be much easier. I'm not sure if that's true, Relle. If a guy—so the guy should say he's looking to get married. Blue-collar job, 68k a year, great. That sounds great. Ashton, where is—where was Goop? I promised him that I would do something for him, and now I don't see his—I don't see the next comment. Uh, I can't see it. It's very hard to follow the chat. I'm sorry if—if you said it and I can't find it. I don't think it's—cause maybe you got demonetized or Shadow Banned for your problematic channel. Are you talking to me? I'm not demonetized; I'm hyper-monetized. Will AI replace Humanity? I don't think so. I don't think that computers can have Consciousness in the same way that organic life does. Filter people out. Don't—don't—don't go to places where everyone can go. On apps, you can use an understanding of psychology to correlate what a woman shows in the quality of that woman. Uh, I think I know what you're saying; that's kind of—what percentage of people are second-tier thinkers? I'm pretty sure it's less than 10%, and it might be less than five. How long should I wait for a girl to be ready for a relationship? I'm on day 40. Okay, give it 3 months, and if you have—have put in the time and told her how you feel and all of that, and 3 months pass, and you go, "Do you want to make it official?" and she goes, "I know, no," then get out. Give it three months. Someone says, "Face reveal." Here's my face. Oh, am I still here? Yes, I'm still here. Stay in the call. Yep. Um, here's my face. Okay, this is my face. I have eyes, and I have big delicious Chad lips, and then here's my Fabio hair, and I have a German accent. Do I talk like this? And

I say to you, I will be making some Maths for you. Don't you think it will be beautiful? There's my shoulders, big [Music] shoulders. I think it's crazy how many people are here. I'm a quarter of the way to 500,000 subscrib-- I know, isn't that wild? I'm more than a quarter. I think I, I think I might have passed 130,000 today. Um, and Mackin was right about that, that I really need to be, you know, responsible with it. And even if I don't want to be responsible, that I should, you know, look out for the money.

So this is for anyone who's just joining, which is nobody because this has been going on for quite some time. Um, this is just my self-portrait. There's my, there's my abs and there's the hips and the Adonis line there, the Adonis belt. And I'll just draw some workout shorts. [Music] There. All right. I can't believe how long I've been on here. Like I did the whole Mack thing, and now I'm just like, let's hang out. I don't know, I just like it. I just like hanging out with people that want to listen to me. Um, is there a way-- ah, collab with psych hacks? Okay, I'm writing these things down: psych hacks, Uber mench, who's Miku? Thank you, T rash, he just subbed. Did I miss anything? Will I try to talk with health-- healthy gamer GG? Um, I mean, I'll, I, I got the suggestion. I don't see any reason why I would not want to do it. I just, I don't know him yet. I don't know who he is. Um, you know, I don't know if he wants to talk to me, but I don't, like, I'm not, I'm not just going to say no. Like, maybe? Okay.

Inwo Park says, "Why is it important to be able to get to the ninth level of Consciousness?" Okay, so Inwo, I'm, I'm going to answer your question by getting rid of my delicious self-portrait there, and uh, and I'm going to go to the, the levels. So each one of these-- let me see if I can move this-- each one of them successively creates new abilities for the collective, uh, human race. When you're at the lower levels of awareness, there is just, there is just no way to do things of the complexity that we have going on in our world right now. So if you are, if you are at-- let me see if I can move this over here-- if you are at this third level where the only thing that you're aware of is, is your Social Web, and the only thing that you can really do is focus on your position in the Social Web, this is, that's the level that I call control, and it is about-- are you guys seeing this the right side or is this backwards? But anyway, to finish the answer, um, when everyone is at this level, everything is desperate all the time, and it's, you're just in survival mode all the time. When everyone is at this level, you just have little small survival tribes, and you just make things out of grass, and that's your whole life. When you're here, this is like ancient Rome. It's really the best that you can do is you have like Gask Khan and things like that. You can have a bunch of people come together and organize into tribes, and you can have Warfare and things like that, but you really, generally, you don't have-- I mean, it's before ancient Rome, it's even before that-- you generally don't even have farming at this level. If everyone's at level three, at level four, that's when you get Farming and Agriculture, and people start, start to come together and do what is called diversification of Labor, which is when you do this job, I'll do that job. You be the shoemaker, I'll be the blacksmith. That's why we have people whose names are Shoemaker and Smith. They start doing different things to serve the collective. That doesn't happen before level four. At level five, you start systematizing things and you start planning ahead, like, "What are our needs going to be 20 years from now? Let's build up stuff for that." You start thinking more and more about the future. You start planning more and more for large groups of people and how to make things better for large groups of people, and it gets better and better and better as you go. It doesn't mean like higher doesn't mean better. You can be unhealthy at any of these levels, you can be, but an average level five Society is way better to live in than an average level three Society. It's just, you, you're going to have running water here and not here. So when you say, "Why is it important to get up, up to level 9?" If everyone was at level 9, we would not fight about stuff. We would just talk to each other and go, "Here is what I am feeling. This is what is arising for me. Okay, here's what I was feeling, I'm arising. Okay, so now that I know that I feel this and you feel that, how are we going to arrange our lives?" It's like hyper rationality. It's like hyper-- it's more than rationality because you, you disarm yourself. I don't know if you were here when I was talking to Mackin, but he said at one point that he was yelling at me, and I told him, "I don't think you're yelling at me. I think you're yelling at my mistake." That is high-level consciousness. That's at, that's at least a level six or seven thing to say. Down here, you kind of are your ideas. So when Mack was, was getting a little loud with me, I might have taken it personally if I was at a lower level, but the higher you go, it's like, okay, I don't need to be identified with the things I think. It's imagine what the world would be like if, if no one was identified with the things they think, and you could make mistakes and forgive yourself, and people would forgive you like right away, just there we go, right away like that. Imagine that. Imagine that. That's why it's important. We got to get, we got to get more people up there. We must.

Now back to my self-portrait. Now back to my abs. I, I don't really know how to respond to race-based things. It's like, um, if you're feeling torn between cultures, then you have to like align yourself to something, and I'm not really sure, um, how you would go about doing-- like I've never thought about that. I've never had to do that. I've just always known what my culture was. Uh, Abao says, "Would you say the higher the level, the more abstraction you have between your base impulses and a more less myopic view of the world, which is a part of the human condition?" Yes, yep. More abstraction and less myopic, yep. Pick the most dominant culture. I mean, whichever one that you like, whichever one you think is going to be the best for you, uh, or I guess you could do both. Like you, you have to connect to something. That's what I'm saying is like if you, if your problem is that you don't feel connected to things, then you've got to do the work of connecting yourself. I don't know how to map the success you're having, so you can explain it. Maybe. Can an average IQ person make it to the higher levels? I do not know. So I don't know what is the relationship of IQ to levels. I know that, um, if you're low IQ, it can keep you in the lower levels, but being high IQ doesn't guarantee you'll get to the higher ones. I know that. Yeah, race discussion is a losing game. You're right. I, I really don't want to talk about it. I mean, the guy was asking for help, and I think just generally, just sort of saying, um, "You got to do the work of connecting yourself," is a good answer.

Matthew Gregory, how's life? I mean, it's going pretty good. Will this stream be available to VI later? Yeah. MH, what place should pleasure have in life? It's your motivator. Pleasure is at the bottom, and you have to understand what Pleasures you're going to get over time based on your behaviors, and that's going to motivate-- like it's pleasure times time is what's going to motivate you. Pleasure is the motivation to do everything, and whatever it is that pleases you, you have to make sure that it's not going to be good now and bad later. Pleasure times time equals upward Mobility. Uh, so you know, don't engage in Pleasures that stop your upward Mobility later. Don't do what you want now instead of what you really want. Think about what you really want over time and follow the, follow the most pleasing thing over time, and your life will get better. I know, Elliot, a thousand people have been here for so, for such a long time. Like, what time is this? 11:25. I went from 7 to 8, 9, 10, 11:25. I've been here for 4 hours and 25 minutes. I haven't peed for 4 hours and 25 minutes. I got to get up. Okay, that's it for me. Um, tell me, tell me goodbye in whatever way that you want, and I got to go pee and live a reasonable quality life. Good night. Thank you for being here. I appreciate you all very much. Um, thanks for, thanks for being here to watch the, watch me smackdown Mackin back to hell where he came from. I'm just kidding. We had a good, we had fun. Um, okay. All right. Okay. There's the goodbyes. I see them. Okay. Good night. Goodbye. Bye. Very good night.

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SEX FIGHT: Macken Murphy vs hoe_math

Transcription