Why Dangerous People Make ‘No’ Feel Impossible: The Psychology of Coercion

Thank you so much for joining me today. I want to start out. I mean, I always warn you that we talk about tough topics, things that are very sensitive, but this week's topic is extremely sensitive. And in fact, it's so sensitive, I've turned off all forms of possible ad revenue on it just because I know that it won't pass muster. So, be warned that this, this could be triggering for you. And I really want you to use your wisdom in sticking around and listening to this topic.

But we're going to be talking about coercion, particularly sexual coercion, when love gets twisted into something very ugly. What is coercion? How does it happen? I want to talk about the kind of the normal way that it shows up in relationships that maybe you've not recognized that you're being coerced. And then I want to move about talk about how coercion moves to trafficking and then what the difference is between a coercive relationship and one in which it becomes commercialized or trafficked. So, as I said, this is, this is a tough one. And, um, if you've been on my lives before, then you know that I'm going to save the last 45 minutes to talk about the issues you want to talk about. I'm sorry, the last 15 minutes. We're going to talk 45 minutes on this topic. We're going to save the last 15 minutes to talk about whatever it is that you would like to talk about. So, if you have a question about whatever, maybe it's about the new year, surviving the holidays, maybe it's about coercive control or coercion, but if I, I'd love to have you stick around and we'll, we'll save your questions for the last 15 minutes. So, thank you so much for being here today. I deeply appreciate your trust and and that we get into really, really sensitive topics.

So, let's first of all start off by talking, well, let me give you an outline of where we're going to go today. We're going to talk about what coercion is, you know, the definition of it so that you're really clear on it. We want to then, I want to talk about some subtle examples that abuse partners may use as a way to coerce you into something you don't want to do. How it happens emotionally, behaviorally, situationally, um, even through your thought life, through the relationship. And then I want to talk about how, how some examples and situations that sexual coercion actually occurs in the kind of the pressure that you may end up getting experiencing. Um, and then we're going to move into from there into the differences between coercion and trafficking. We're talk about when does it become trafficking? At what point, what's the key critical differences between these two states? And then, um, at that point, we're going to be, then we'll wrap it up and then we'll take your questions. So, so let's strap in and talk about this extremely tough topic. And I'm so thrilled that you guys are here.

Thank you so much for joining me today. And if you're not familiar with who I am, I'm Dr. Carrie Makavoy, a clinical psychologist. Actually, I'm retired these days, but I've had over 25 years of practice. And I deeply appreciate you guys being with me. And for those of you who are joining me on TikTok, you know the drill. If you guys would share, maybe you know someone who needs to hear this today, as well as t, I'm sorry, YouTube and Facebook. You may because we're all in this together. We're being streamed across those three platforms, but maybe you know somebody that you've been concerned about. Maybe this person has a kind of relationship that you just feel like something's off, not quite registering right to you, and you're worried about this individual. Maybe you've watched the coercion happen, and you, you know that this person didn't even know they're being coerced. So consider sharing this with somebody, but also be sure to, if you don't follow me, I'd love to have you stick around because we talk about these really tough topics. Next week, in fact, it's going to be about how betrayal, cheating specifically, is a form of violence. I'm going to be, um, on the podcast Breaking Free from Narcissistic Abuse, I interview Hope Ray, who's actually doing research on this on betrayal violence. We're going to talking about what is that? And anybody who's been cheated on knows that it's a gut-wrenching experience that you feel like you've been literally torn apart. But we're going to get into next week why you feel so devastated when your partner cheats on you. So this is a place where we get into very, very big topics and I'm just very thrilled that you're here with me.

So, what is coercion? Coercion is an act in which you're using pressure, threats, manipulation, or intimidation in order to compel somebody into doing something. Sorry, my my screen just flipped super big and I can't read it because it's across the whole, the whole thing. So, let me get it small again. So, it's, it's, it's intimidating or forcing or pressuring or threatening someone to do something that's against their will or against their better judgment. Um, it really undermines this individual's ability to choose by introducing fear, guilt, or some form of psychological pressure that so that makes refusal start to feel unsafe or even impossible. Maybe there's been overt threats. Maybe there's even just, maybe it's not overt. Maybe it's subtle, like emotional pressure or guilt tripping. Maybe it's withdrawal of a emotion or affection with this person, or there's implied obligation. But even if the person, here's the part that I really want you to hear that's super critical. Even if the person technically agrees, the presence of pressure means that true consent was not true consent was not given, that it was compromised or act actually absent.

So, when we start to talk about co sexual coercion, it's any behavior that's the same kind of pressure that applies to sexual activity, so that this person ends up g moving into some intimate act with the other individual without freely consenting. So, the key pieces to remember with coercion is that free consent has been undermined. They don't. They may say yes, but it's because they feel obligated or they're afraid of the consequences, because they're trying to avoid conflict, or because they feel responsible for the other person's emotions and feelings, or because they've been just frankly worn down by persistent pressure. You know, this was, this is what we call in psychology acquiescence. This person has acquiesced to the pressure. The other thing that happens in coercion is that it doesn't have to be a physical intimidation or or, um, force. It can be emotional and psychological. You can use things like guilt tripping, like, "If you really loved me, you'd do this." Or you just wear the person down. You refuse to say no, accept no, until finally they give in. Or you, the other person starts to use implied threat, like, "I'm going to leave you," or "I'll be mad," or "I might cheat if you don't do this." There may be manipulation, such as sulking, pouting, or punishing silences. But basically, there, oh, and the one other is there may be an exploitation of power imbalances. Maybe this person's older, um, has more authority, or they're financially, uh, in a position of power. They, they actually, maybe hold the purse strings in the relationship, or there maybe there's an emotional vulnerability that's existing in this relationship. And there also can be coercion in a situational, in situations like when the other person's being forced into intimate acts when they're exhausted or scared, intoxicated, or emotionally overwhelmed, or they use their previous, um, sexual history against you. Like, "Well, we've done it before, so why wouldn't you do it again?" I've heard one recently where there are some people that will pressure, it's particularly men pressuring women by saying, "Well, you had another baby with somebody else, so why wouldn't you do this with me? It's not like you're a virgin or something." So, when there's a situational pressure that causes obligation or compliance.

So, here's the thing that I want you to hear really clearly. If the outcome doesn't determine if it was coercive. So, in other words, you may end up, that person may say yes, but they're not freely saying yes because they feel obligated, or they feel manipulated, or they know there's no way out. And just because the intimacy happened doesn't mean that it was consensual. And I think we've really had a lot of confusion about that, that we think that because the outcome, you know, that it happened, that somehow we both must have agreed to it, or it would never have happened. That's actually not, that's not a definition of consent. So, the core distinction between consent and coercion is that consent is made freely and enthusiastically without pressure. Coercion is some form of pressure that removes freedom of choice, even if the person seems to comply.

Yeah, boy. I'm feeling really triggered. I had a situation in which something like this happened to me and I, I, I never reported it because I felt, I felt complicit because I, I was backed into a corner when I was in a, I, I didn't have an out. I, I didn't have any clear out and I knew this person had a lot of physical advantages to me. So, yeah. I, yeah. So, right now, I'm like, let's shake that off. Let's shake that off. Yeah. My own issues are coming up right now.

All right. So, let's talk about the differences between emotional coercion, behavioral coercion, situational coercion, cognitive coercion, relational coercion. We're going to talk about these five different types. Okay. So, the, the, the first is sexual coercion. The definition of this is any behavior, as I already mentioned, that pressures, manipulates, intimidates, or emotionally forces or implies consequences in order to obtain sexual activity or contact. So, in other words, there's lack of freely consenting. So, it undermines, um, oh, I actually already covered all of this. That's why it feels so familiar.

Okay. So, we're getting into emotional coercion. Emotional coercion is something that happens that distorts your emotional landscape. So, it feels unsafe to say no, or unkind, or selfish. Maybe this person's using guilt tripping and it's framing it as vulnerability. Like, "I feel so rejected when you don't want to." And then you fill in the blank. And what you don't recognize often, or at least I often don't recognize, that this is a form of emotional blackmail used as openness. They're not actually being open. They're, they're weaponizing their vulnerability as a way to make you feel responsible for their, for their feelings. So, you end up feeling guilty, like you're harming them if you say no. There's another form is when they make you a caretaker. You're responsible for their desires. They sigh, or they act hurt, or they go quiet and pout when you express a limit, and you end up soothing them by abandoning your own boundary. I thought, I love the way that that's phrased, caretaker of their desire. You are not responsible for anybody's, uh, emotional needs, psychological needs, and physical needs. They're responsible to manage their own. Another form of emotional coercion is using relationship maintenance as pressure. Like, "If we don't have sex more often, I'm worried about us." Or it makes sex some kind of metric of relationship success, like it's weaponizing fear of loss. And this is one I got to watch out for. I often, I, you know, I'm a person that really likes physical intimacy and when there's a lack of it, I end up feeling like something's wrong. And I have to remember that it's not my, that's not an indication of something's wrong. It's not a metric of success, and that I shouldn't put pressure on somebody. And here's one something I want you to all hear from me. You just heard me own this is that we all can fall into these things. This isn't like there's somebody, there's bad people and good people. A lot of us are just somewhere in the middle of the gray. You know that we, we all kind of psychologically struggle with this. So, I want you to hear that if you're feeling like, "Ooh, you just nailed me on this one." I want you to know, well, I'm nailing myself as well. That sometimes I can fall prey to some of these as well. We need to take responsibility and and accountability for our behavior so that we don't pressure somebody who's really not wanting that kind of contact with us. Sometimes another emotional coercion is claiming that your no means that you don't love them. This is a classic tactic when someone says, "You know, I just want to feel close to you. Is that too much to ask?" Or, "I only will know, I, I only know if that if you love me if you do this, or don't you want to love me?" They'll use this kind of some kind of this like this type of physical intimacy as evidence of of care, concern, compassion, and love. Or they'll turn, they'll turn your boundaries into a flaw. Like, "You know, you're just too sensitive," or "You're overthinking it. Why do you need to overthink sex so much?" Or, "I think your trauma is getting in the way of it and you need to really look at that." Or they'll, they'll, they'll reframe your no as somehow illegitimate and wrong. So, those are all forms of emotional coercion.

Now, here's are forms of behavioral coercion. Behavioral, behavioral coercion. They're actions, not words. They're conditions that push you into compliance. Like, there's the mood shift. You know how you suddenly realize how long it's been and then that your partner's getting sulky around the house? Maybe they're distant, or they're more withdrawn. Maybe they're ouchy and irritable, or they start fights faster. Or they repeatedly ask after you say no. Not like aggressive, they just are persistent, like, "Come on, come on, can't we? Why, why would you not?" Or they, they touch you even though you've said no, they still touch you, that in a way that implies they're ignoring your boundary. And what happens is this reputa, this repetition actually starts to erode your boundaries and makes resistance really hard, so you end up just kind of giving in to get relief because they're exhausting you with their persistence. There's often sometimes initial, there's touching after you're asleep or half asleep, you know, they sort of kind of buddy up next to you and that you feel like this is pressure, like suddenly, you know, they're being pulled into something you're really not wanting to be pulled into.

Yeah, somebody just said, "I really hate how this is all relatable." I do, too. Honestly, I do, too. I, it is really uncomfortable topic. And I, I did warn you guys that we're going to be talking about something really hard today. So, I, I appreciate you sticking with me. We're going to, this is important. It's important for me. It's important for me to recognize it. It's important for me to recognize when I'm guilty of this so that I don't do it to other people because, like I said, there's not really black and white between people. There's just levels of gray. A lot of us may accidentally do this just because we're feeling alone or abandoned, or we're unsure what's happening in the relationship, or we may end up giving in because we, we start to caretake a lot, or, um, yeah. And you already know what I'm exactly talking about. Yeah, exactly. We start to caretake because we love the other person and we don't want to see them feel bad, you know. And I agree, a lot of us put this off as just normal and part of the acceptable part of the relationship.

So, here's another behavioral form of coercion where we push past a soft boundary accidentally. Like, they test your limits physically under the guise of playfulness or misunderstanding. And you've been trained to minimize your discomfort. I know most of us on a date, you know, we're with somebody who's kind of aggressive on a date and they start to push and you know, you don't really know what to do because you feel really uncomfortable and awkward and you feel like if you say something, you're going to make them feel, you feel ashamed and you're going to make them feel ashamed. Yeah, that's a form of behavioral coercion. Or after you flinch, flinch, freeze, or seem unsure, they slow down, but they restart a few minutes later, testing if you're going to give in after that first push. So, those are all forms of behavioral coercion.

Now, we're going to talk about situational. Boy. Yeah, we know what we're talking about. Situational coercion. These are tactics that rely on context or timing. It's not overt pressure. It's context or timing. Like initiating when you feel obligated, like after a fight to make things up, or after they did something really nice, or because it's a special occasion. It almost feels unfair to say no because it looks like you're ungrateful, or you're ruining the moment, or they wait until you're exhausted, overwhelmed, or somehow compromised, and then they kind of hit you up as a way to sort of put, you know, wanting connection with you, like you've been so busy and so gone so much and I just really feel like we need to connect. And or there's pressure after emotional abandonment, abandonment. Maybe they withdraw for a few days and then they reappear and they want contact with you. And then there's the implicit message with that that if you don't say yes, you're going to lose me again. I'm going to disappear on you again. So, you end up giving in because you don't want them to be gone. You don't want that, that form of stonewalling or emotional withdrawal. Um, yeah. Someone just said, "I get, God, I was just messing with you when you know that they weren't." You know, by the way, that's called test and apologize. That if you guys haven't followed Jenny Young on Instagram, WordCase Scenario, word_case_scenario, she also has for those of you who are single and dating, she has this massive Facebook group called Burn Hast Stack Method. Fact, she's coming out with a book on it where she talks about how to recognize common manipulative dysfunctional factors or tactics when you're meeting somebody in online dating. She really talks about how to be safer on online dating. So, if you haven't checked out her stuff, she's awesome. In fact, I'm going to interview her soon and I'm super excited about that. And the last form of beh of, um, the last form of situational coercion is they, they use, they use sex to tie it to basic relational needs. Okay? And this is a common one for people who don't have a good, like a rich vocabulary for emotions. They'll say the only way for them to feel loved is to connect sexually, or the only way for them to feel calmed down or feel close is they got to connect sexually. This is really an evidence of someone who lacks the ability to, to, uh, really understand the nuances of that there are lots of ways to connect intimately emotionally other than just a physical intimate act. Okay. So, those, oh, thank you so much, uh, Joe Mack. I'm so thrilled to see you here again today.

So, those are the. So, I just covered emotional coercion, behavioral coercion, in, uh, situational coercion. Now I'm going to get into cognitive coercion. This is where your perceptions are being manipulated so that you doubt your own experience. Maybe they minimize your discomfort as misinterpretation. Like, "I wasn't pressuring you. You always assume the worst about me." In fact, one of you just gave me an example like, "God, I was just teasing you." That's an example of cognitive coercion. It retroactively redefines the event in which your intuition already said, "This is unsafe. I don't like it." And now they're gaslighting you and saying, "No, you read it wrong." Another form of, uh, cognitive coercion is they rewrite consent after the fact. Like, "I know you wanted it. You just didn't, you didn't feel free to say yes." Well, no, you said no, but now they're rewriting it as if you didn't know your own self or what you want. And so what they do is they compromise your trust in your own memory and that your trust in your own behavior and your own feelings. Or they make your boundaries seem unreasonable. Like they've trained you over time to believe that your normal healthy limits are excessive and that you not need to stop trusting your nose. They sort of like convince you that the way you're setting the limits is unreasonable.

The last type of coercion I want to talk about is relational coercion. This is, um, when these behaviors exploit attachment, caretaking, and the fear of loss. So, they'll use intimacy as proof of loyalty. Like, "Don't you trust me?" Or, "Why is this big deal? It's not like it's, uh, why is this such a big deal with me? It wasn't with your past partners." Or they'll play victim when you set a boundary, like there's tears, emotional collapse, helplessness, and it becomes your job to rescue them instead of protecting yourself. Or there's implied abandonment, like, um, "I, I don't think we can do this if we're not connected sexually." Or, in other words, you start to hear, "Well, if I don't comply, they're going to leave me, or hurt me, or cheat me, cheat on me, do something that really harms me, uh, harms our relationship, harms my attachment." So, the core pattern to all of these is that you stop feeling like you have a real choice. Because the, the heart of this is issue is that, um, people who love other people care about their feelings. They, they care about your nose. They want you to feel safe. They don't want to upset you. They're going to respect what makes you feel safe and they're going to choose the path that doesn't harm you and they're not going to see you setting limits as selfish or cold. So, I really want you to hear that that love and and respect really respects you because they care about you so much that you being injured or feeling uncomfortable or embarrassed or unsafe matters so much to them that it matters more than what they want in that moment. That's the big, the big difference here.

So, if the cost of saying no feels too high, then you're not complying. You're not consenting. You're complying. I want to say that again because I think it's so important. If the cost, whether it's emotional, relational, psychological, of saying no feels too high to you, then you're not consenting, you're complying.

So, here are some examples that we often mistake as normal in relationships, are actually examples of sexual coercion. The first is pressure described or disguised as emotional needs. This is one of the most common ones actually. It's like, "I want to feel close to you. Is that too much?" Or, "I really need this to feel connected, otherwise I don't know where we stand." Or they pout, or sulk, or act rejected when you feel no. So they start to, they start to ask you to caretake their emotions instead of honoring your limits. The second one is the wear down tactic, like, "I'm going to keep trying until you give in." It's the repeated, um, pressure that breaks down resistance, and it may even be like soft pressure, but it ends up just exhausting you and costing you too much, so you just finally give in. Like, you've already said no once, twice, three times, but they keep coming back and eventually you end up feeling mean for saying no because you're so, like, worn out by it, or you feel so bad by it, that you just give in to do it. The third is they use anger, withdrawal, or coldness as punishment. And it ends up being that your no starts to feel like an intolerable high level that's going to cost you way too much. Like, you're going to get the silent treatment because you've turned them down, or they start slamming doors, or snapping at you. Or maybe they're, they're cruel to your pets, or they're mean to the kids, and you start to just end up feeling like it's better just to give in to keep the peace. And so sex becomes the cost of peace in your household. And you just, you do it in order just to stop the pressure in the house. The fourth type is coercion through guilt and obligation. This, this connects sex to duties, expectations, and keeping the relationship healthy. I knew somebody close to me that ended up having to put it on her calendar. She just, like, scheduled it. She knew it was what she had to do in order to keep the peace in the house was just to plan to do it, whatever, you know, days that it is. And it wasn't because it was a good thing for both of them. I mean, there's nothing wrong with putting on the calendar. Please don't hear me say that. I'm not saying that. Maybe that's the way that you guys make date night and you know it's your special time and you both want to do that. But what I'm saying is that when you do it because you feel like it keeps the peace, or it keeps things steady, or it keeps your partner from being sulky, that's not date night. That's coercion. So you feel like it's been a long time and you owe them, or you, because they're your partner, this is just what couples do. Or they say to you, "If you love me, you would do this." All of this is framed as responsibility instead of a shared mutual desired experience between two people who really love and care for each other. Or maybe it's coercion after conflict, like the makeup sex that isn't a choice. Now, sometimes makeup sex is a really great way to say, "Hey, I'm sorry. I see you. I really love you." Again, there's nothing wrong with makeup sex. I'm not saying that. But if the, if it's initiated as a way to prove everything's okay, or they expect it because they've apologized or showed some form of remorse, or they're pressuring you into it so that you don't ruin the moment, that moves from it being a normal, like reconnection into now that you have to do this because this is a way that you keep the peace and keep it going. Or maybe it's they take advantage of you being in a compromised or vulnerable state. So, you're half awake, or you're really exhausted, or maybe you've had too much to drink, and they start to take liberties. Or maybe it's when you're crying or emotionally overwhelmed, and they take advantage of the fact. Or maybe worse yet, you're dissociating because you've been feeling traumatized by something, but you're not in a position to give a clear, active, enthusiastic yes, but they proceed anyway because they know it's easier because you're, you're open in that moment, so they take advantage of it. Number seven is they hint at or threaten negative consequences. I've heard that lately there's been a lot of, um, reels and videos on women who say that they, they've had to do this when their part, when they're pregnant, or their partner threatens they're going to get a divorce. You know, that, so that's a great example of that, like, "I don't know how long I can stay in this relationship without sex," or, "You know, other people are giving their partners what they need. Why aren't you?" Or, "I'm not satisfied, then I can't promise I'm not going to start looking elsewhere." So, you start to feel like you have to in order to, um, avoid being hurt or abandoned or cheated on by this other partner. The eighth type is coercive compromise. This is when they propose something that looks like a negotiation, but it actually is pressure. Like, "Can we just do something then? I mean, you say no to that, but what about this?" So, even if you're not in the mood, can you at least help me out, or just lie there? You don't have to do anything. So, all of this compromises kind of removes your ability to fully decline, and they funnel it towards you doing something, something just because it's better than the unwanted option. So you, like, go along because, like, I don't want to do that, so I'm going to go ahead and do this. Then the ninth type is sexual coercion framed as miscommunication. They've crossed a, crossed a boundary, reinterpret what happened so that you doubt the experience, like, "I thought you wanted it," or "You didn't say no," or "You seemed into it," and so you start to question yourself, like, which really makes future coercion even easier because now your internal boundaries are starting to get blurred. And then the last type is requiring sex to access basic relational needs. This is more common in narcissistic, avoidant, or emotionally immature relationships that often gets missed by partners. This is when they only offer affection when sex is on the table, or they're only pleasant and engaged when sexual interactions are available, and they withdraw and use the connection as leverage. So you unconsciously learn that intimacy, affection, warmth, and even basic kindness has to be earned through sexual participation. So, we all, you know, we get really familiar with these and we start to learn them so well that we learn them by the tone of voice and whether or not they seem nice, or or whether or not, you know, you kind of know what they're implying. You even, like, sometimes know just by the amount of time that has passed, and you end up feeling like, "Ooh, you know, I'm pushing it. It's been a while. I better, I better give in or agree." And all of that takes away your, your freedom to say no. So, if you're being coerced, if you feel guilt, conflict, abandon, a fear of abandonment, um, you're fear afraid of rage, you're afraid of the coldness, you think there might be punishment, if there's a lot of sulking, if there's some pressure, or there's even emotional collapse, you're not consenting when these are happening. You're, you're being coerced and you're learning to cope.

So, now I want to jump into what's the difference between coercion and trafficking. So, here's, here's how the United States and international standard defines it. Sexual trafficking requires three elements unless the victim is a minor. So, I'm going to talk about it from the angle of adults. As an adult, you are recruited, harbored, transported, provided, obtained, patronized, or solicited as a person. That means there's been force, fraud, or coercion. And then this, this benefits the other person is benefiting from the sexual activity. So, there has to be some form of act that causes solicitation or recruiting. There has to be force, fraud, or coercion. And then there's some form of commercial or benefit. It can even be that they, you, it's a way you get the job. I was, if you haven't checked out, um, the interview with Pamela, uh, Takoffman, I'm trying, yeah, Toffman. She has a very unusual name. She, she's a cult expert, also trafficking expert, as an attorney. She's an attorney of law. And she, she was talking about how is there force, fraud, or coercion? And and that that commercial sexualization doesn't necessarily mean money. It could be position or access. Um, so think broadly. Think about how this person's benefiting by the sexual activity.

So, so here's some nonsexual. Here's, so, okay. So, sometimes, um, coercion in relationships never becomes trafficking because there's no third-party profit, or there's no commercial exchange, or there's not a, or there's not a systematic exploitation. But there are some situations that get kind of crossed the line, especially in abusive or narcissistic relationships. So, here are some coercions that really are becoming trafficking. These are, these are things that are on the line. When a person pressures you into sex for other people, with other people, for their benefit. Okay, let me say that again. When you're being pressured into being doing an intimate act with other people for your partner's benefit. So, if they encourage, or pressure, or force, or manipulate, or threaten you into doing this, and they're benefiting either financially, or socially, or materially, that's actually a form of trafficking. I know. Isn't that, I mean, I think a lot, I think that's something a lot of us don't recognize that that is a form of trafficking that you're being pressured into this work in order for them to take the earning, or they're pressuring you to sleep with their boss in order to get a favor or financial gain, or they're pressuring you into creating content that they can sell and profit from. That's all of that is a form of trafficking. The second type is when the activity exchange is exchanged for resources under a threat, like you're coerced in exchange for rent, or food and shelter, money, safety, your immigration status, or for child custody leverage. So, if your partner controls or profits from the exchange, this becomes trafficking. This is also, by the way, called survival sex. When it's not orchestrated by the other person, but you use it as a way to, to protect yourself. How many times we've heard of somebody exchanging sex for rent, for example. You know, it's cold outside. You don't want to, you don't want to die. You know, you don't want to be in the exposure. You want to keep your kids warm, and so you keep your landlord happy as a way to keep a roof over your head. That's, that's actually a form of, it's a form of trafficking when, when coercion is used to keep someone in sex work. So, originally they may have agreed to do this voluntarily, but it becomes trafficking if they're prevented from leaving, or they're coerced into staying. There's threats, or manipulation, or they feel dominated, like by that they have to continue. In other words, they're locked in. Once they feel locked in by that other person, it then becomes trafficking. When someone is moved or is isolated in order to maintain sexual control, this is harboring. It's not just transportation. It's harboring. So, they take you to hotels for encounters with clients, and you, even if you go voluntarily, that's a form of harboring. If they isolate you home and bring clients to you, or they restrict your movements and document your control as participation. All of that is isolation and exploitation, and that's enough to count as trafficking. Then there's a form of digital exploitation. This is when somebody distributes, um, content for money or personal profits, that also counts. I think of, for example, the case in in fair France, Paris, France, which, um, the woman, I'm trying to think her first name, um, I, it starts with a P. You guys may, I, you know, I just obliterate names anyway. She had like her husband was, you know, doing things to her at night and then allowing people to come into the room and they, yeah, all of that, that was a form of trafficking. He was trafficking her. So, yeah. So, it also includes being pressured to make videos or photos in which your partner sells, or you're being coerced into live streams where your partner then collects payment. All of these are forms of trafficking. So, the, the threshold in this is that your autonomy has been compromised through pressure, fear, or manipulation, and somebody else is either exploiting it or profiting from it. So, it doesn't have to be this dramatic thing of of criminal ring. It's all about power, profit, and loss of control.

So, here's what some things that people miss about trafficking. We end up thinking that trafficking always includes abductions, or locked rooms, or organized crimes, or, you know, foreign smuggling. But the majority of trafficked survivors report that it was a romantic partner. It was their, their spouse, or parent, or family member, or friend who trafficked them. And often the abuse felt like it was manipulation, that they were being emotionally controlled, that there was threats, there was financial dependence, survival decisions, or they're just trying to save the relationship. And trafficking often hides inside of love bombing, trauma bonds, and toxic attachments.

So, here are some red flags to watch out for if you're being sexually coerced. Watch out for somebody who puts you into a position of being emotionally or psychologically pressured that makes you feel guilty for saying no, and they sulk or punish you, or they, they coerce you by saying it's a form of love, or they repeatedly ask even though you say no, or they use tears or being hurt as a way to wear you down. Watch out for when they manipulate boundaries and they initiate activity when you're asleep, exhausted, or overwhelmed. And when they ignore your verbal or non-verbal resistance, or tell you that you're no overreaction, or trauma-babed, or unfair. Watch out for someone who threatens the relationship. They're going to leave you, or cheat on you, or they're not going to love you, or hug you, or touch you if you don't comply. And watch out for somebody who presses it after there's a, a conflict or emotional distance in order for them to feel like the relationship's okay. So, no always should be respected, always. And it always should be, intimacy should always benefit both partners emotionally and feel safe for both partners.

All right. I know this has been a really, really tough topic. Um, I'm thinking, I'm looking through if there's anything else I really want to touch on before I stop. Um, okay. Here's some examples of coercion that happens with narcissists or emotionally immature people. They'll treat your body like an entitlement. They'll act irritated as if if you say no. They treat sex like a duty and they punish you with coldness or criticism until you give in. They'll say things like, "You know, I need this. Don't make it so difficult." Or they frame sex as a form of emotional regulation. Um, they'll, they'll say, "I have a stressful day. Don't make it worse." Or, "I just need to feel close to you. Why is that so hard to understand?" So, your, your job, you are not a teddy bear to regulate another person. That is not your job. That's their, they need to learn how to do that on themselves. Or they'll weaponize their vulnerability, like they'll be in some shame spiral or in some victim mode, and then they, they'll say to you things like, "I just guess I'm not attractive to you anymore," and start to make you feel really, really like you're expected to do this. This is an obligation to do this. Or they'll use mood swings and affections as leverage. They'll use silent treatment or intermittent reinforcement of affection only when sex is on the table. Or they, they end up retrying after you already said no. You know, they'll, they'll say that you just need like warming up or something. That, that is also a form of of coercion. So, watch out for people joking about boundaries or pushing boundaries. And here's how to be warned about if you're possibly being groomed for trafficking by a partner. They'll make jokes about you doing sexual favors for somebody else. They'll kind of introduce the idea as a through humor. And what they're really doing is kind of like getting you used to it. They're kind of warming the idea. They're destabilizing it as bad. It's almost like they're, they're making it less taboo. They'll say things like, "Well, my boss might give me a raise if you wore that around him." Or, "If we ever needed money, could easily make a killing." But they're not jokes, guys. These are tests. They're actually testing you to see how okay you are with this. Or they'll push you to be more sexual in public or online. So, it's not like overtly, um, commercial sex, but they'll want you to post provocative photos, or they'll ask for sexual photos and videos that they want to show off to other people, or they'll perform, encourage you to perform on camera. And this is all a form of narcissistic supply by using external validation of your body as a way to get their, their attention from somebody else. Or they'll pressure you into threesomes or some act with another person that is disguised as fantasy exploration. They'll say things like, "You just need to open your mind," or "Let's keep things exciting," or "I really want to explore our trust." What this really is, though, it's a compliance test. The goal is to see how far they can push you so they can get you to abandon your boundaries in order to maintain the relationship. Or they'll normalize sexual access to other parties. They'll say, you know, they'll ask you to flirt with somebody in order to get something, or they'll suggest that you're hot enough to get free stuff for both of you, or they'll tease you about how other men and women want you. And again, this is a setup for exploitation. Or they'll blur the boundaries between intimacy and performance, like they'll ask you to be filmed or do things on camera or make content for us. And then once the footage exists, it becomes leverage. They start to use it as pressure, blackmail, or coercion, all in the form that originally was shared intimacy.

I know, such, such tough stuff, guys. A really tough stuff. Yeah. And some of you are sharing really painful stories right now of how this happened to you. And I deeply appreciate the trust you guys are showing me with this. Thank you for that. So, let's now start to talk about what it is that you want to talk about. Maybe there's something that's happening in your life right now. Maybe it's completely unrelated to this altogether. I, no problem. We can switch. Maybe we need to switch the topic. But I know this has been, thank you for sticking with me. I know this has been really, really hard things today and, um, uncomfortable. I know a lot of us may have had moments where you think, "Gosh, that happened to me." Or, um, I know one of mine was, I got into a situation where I told a person no, and then I got alone with them and they pushed again, and I couldn't get out, and I ended up going along with it, and I didn't want to go along with it. I was really upset, and then they hurt me. They physically, they didn't like hurt me like attack me, but the, the, the experience injured me. And, um, yeah, it was bizarre. It was awful. And it, I, I afterwards, it was wild. I didn't, I didn't identify it for what it was. Um, I couldn't see that, and I ended up having, what I found was my hand, I was online dating at the time, and my hands started to shake whenever I talked to a new person, my hands would start to tremble. And so I finally made, I made an appointment with a coach that I really trusted who helped me after being in that relationship with a sex addict. So, she, I'd worked with her for over a year, and so I got a hold of her and was talking to her, and she goes, "Carrie, you know what happened?" And I said, "No." She goes, "Well, Carrie, that was date rape. You were got raped." Like, "Geez, please." And it was one of those things because I, I didn't like, get aggressive, and I didn't like, you know, push him off or anything, that I somehow thought that I'm responsible for what happened. But I had already told him no. And so once, yeah, once I was in a corner, I mean, in a position where I knew, I knew that he could overwhelm me. I knew it could get really nasty and violent. I thought, you know what, I don't want that. That's the worst thing. So, let's just do this. It seems better. And I have a feeling that a lot of us have been in those positions, that I'm not alone. You know what's even worse about it? What's worse about it is if I tell somebody now, I've just told the whole world about it, but I found that if I would tell somebody, then they would say, "Well, why didn't you do more?" Or, "Why, why didn't you report it? Did you report it?" Like, what am I going to say to the police about this? Really? I mean, it was so like murky that I felt like they're going to look at me like, this is not, this is not like, what, what are we supposed to do with this? I just felt like it would put me under scrutiny and bring me so much shame that I feel like it would be another level of massive betrayal to me, like another form of self-abandonment, and I thought, I just can't go through with it. Do you, would you believe the guy wrote me a few months later and wanted to meet up again? And I said, "What do you?" And I confronted him. And I said, "What you did to me was, you hurt me. You raped me." And he said, "No, I didn't." And I said, "Yeah, you did." And then I listed all the things that happened. And I said, "None of those are feelings. I didn't list a single feeling. I listed actions, behaviors, things that you did. This is what you did." And I said, "You're sick, and I never want to hear from you again."

So, someone just asked, "Who doesn't get that happen to them?" They said, "It happens to everybody." Yeah, that's how, that's how common this is that a lot of women end up thinking, well, it's just kind of the cost of being in, you know, trying to find a relationship. This just sort of happens to us. Oh. Oh, this is interesting. So, somebody wrote in on YouTube, "My cult leader group therapists joked that therapists would exploit patients, nurses by withholding care from patients and requiring sex for promotions. And they even made jokes about not wasting talent." Oo, see again, that's a great, when you see that, when you, somebody starts to make this as fodder for conversation, like humor. It's not humor. This is that you were being warned. This person was, this is a dangerous person. They're, they're warming the room up by

making it feel like it's not a big deal when it is a big deal. And here I want to I want to say something to the men who are around other men who do this. They're doing that to you. I don't know if you recognize you're being groomed as well.

They're the people who do this um are are making you think that it is not that big of a deal, that this is kind of a normal thing, that it's what guys do. It's not what guys do. That they're actually grooming you to change your thinking on it so that you become desensitized so that later on it's not that big of a deal. So be really really aware that this isn't just something that happens with between men and women. This is h something that happens between pe same sex. So it can happen with heterosexual relationships, homosexual relationships. It's it's a way of being emotionally groomed to think that the bar is lower than it should be. It it really is. Yeah.

Somebody said I was actually um date raped by a police officer and who was I going to report it in that situation? Exactly. Who who who can you go to when when it's some I I don't know how many of you guys have been married to military people or people in positions of like security and power and you end up thinking there's there's everybody's in on it. How can I go and get support? How can I be safe because the very people that I would go and tell are the very people who are involved and are going to harm me. So I I can't do that. Yeah. it becomes like this this huge like almost a communitywide um ring that that binds you in and makes it almost feel impossible to escape, impossible to stop.

So yeah, somebody just said getting out of these situations is really really scared. And Mattie is recommending and I do appreciate this Maddie. Um Mattiey's Maddie on TikTok is recommending that we learn we take self-defense classes. I did I did really early on. I had a horrible thing happen to me while we're talking about this and I I don't know what Tik Tok is going to do about this live. I really don't. I have not it is not being um it is not there's no ads being generated over on YouTube. I just turned them off. I mean I knew this is like nobody's going to want to to uh advertise on this content.

Okay. So what happened to me when I was in my early 20s, I was newly married and I would go jogging after work over at a park that was right across from the apartments with my husband. He and I would go over together and then we would do this two-mile lap together. And we went over and I needed to stop and use the restrooms. And there was some girls from high school playing just outside. They were playing outside playing ball like catch or something. I walked into the bathroom, the girls bathroom. And as I walked in, out of the corner of my eye, I could see something. I knew it was wrong. I could see something was off. And I didn't recognize that I was seeing a person hiding behind the wall, the barrier. And as I started to walk through the doorway into the bathroom area where the stalls are, this man in a mask and a gray mask, I will never forget he wore Oxford white shirt, gray pants, and a gray mat. He matched. Can you believe this guy matched? He wore this mask and he he jumped out at me and then he pulled a weapon on me. And I had just finished taking defense classes. And I was stunned. I couldn't believe this guy was actually brandishing a weapon and wearing a ski mask and he and he jump I started screaming like completely full roar scream non-stop screaming.

So, one of the things I've learned people have said to me, "You're either a screamer or you're not." Well, I discovered I'm a screamer. I didn't know that, but I am. And I wouldn't stop screaming. And my husband, who was outside waiting for me, heard me and he could tell this was bad. He said, "At first, I I'm allergic to bees. He thought that maybe I got into a nest of bees. And then he realized that the pitch was different and bad. So he started to run in to see what's happening. And just as this guy realized that the jig was up and I wasn't stopping screaming, so he decided instead of hurting me physically and attacking me, he raced out. And then my husband chased him down. Of course, we called the police. Of course, they combed the park. And then I was terrified because there were girls, I mean, like high school girls just right outside. This was six o'clock in the summer and it was light out. You know what I'm saying? It was not like it was not a bad I mean it it wasn't it was a time when there kids in the park, teenagers in the park. Anyway, they never did find him, but I did do a police report. It was really a horrible experience and made it what it did though. I'll tell you whenever now I walk into any restroom. I always scope out the whole restroom like who's in here? What is there like stalls are open or not? You know, I make sure they're they're empty. if I'm in there alone and it feels like kind of a questionable area and I know there's not nobody else there, I do scope the stalls out.

So, please do that because another friend of mine shared that she went in and she was going using the restroom and suddenly she looked up and there was a man learing looking down at her from up top that he was in the stall next to her waiting for some woman to use it so that he could take advantage of the situation. So, we just need to like I hate to tell you guys this because I don't want us all scared and not able to leave the house, but I do think we need to be wise and really really listen to ourselves. And when, like I said, when I'm in that bathroom, I could tell something just didn't quite add up. It just didn't I could tell something was wrong. Now, I'm I'm more alert. I'm watchful. And this is one of the things I This This is a problem with the phone. When we walk around with our head down on the phone, we're not tuning into our environment. We or we wear those big headphones that are the noise cancelling, you need to be aware that you need to hear what's going on around you because that's what some of the measures of safety is is the is your ability to sort of tune in to your environment. So, keep your eyes off the phone, keep your head up, walk around.

And and here's another example that happened to me. I was in Mexico. You're like, you're like, "Boy, are you a magnet for this?" I don't know. I I I don't know. I hope not. But I was in Mexico taking a walk and I was going by a construction crew in Mexico, a group of men and it was evening, light out. Um and I was as I walked I could feel myself starting to feel like this is not a safe situation. I could just feel that. And then one of the men started to walk towards me with his eyes locked on and I and the other men were watching and I knew that he was doing this for their benefit. and this was going to get really ugly very quick. And I thought, okay, I could turn around and try to run. He's going to outrun me. He's faster. He's in better shape. Or I could uh try to get to the other side, make some noise. Maybe it was but it was a not a residential. It was a construction area. There weren't a lot of people out. Um so what I decided to do that time was I decided to lock eyes back with him, stand up straighter, and push myself to say, "I'm taking you on. I know what you're doing and I'm going to take you on for this and make a noise and make this really ugly. And by with just the fact that I did that, he suddenly like he could tell that I shifted into a mindset that I was going to do this with him. And as a result of that, then he backed down and swirled away and he walked back to his his um friends.

So, so that's another way to stay safe is as M Maddie suggested with self-defense is sometimes when we push and we act confident. I mean, I know that one of the things that predators look for is how do you walk? Do you carry yourself with confidence? Do you act like you can handle yourself? Do you act like you're willing to make make it difficult? Because they don't want difficult people. They want a victim. Somebody just said, "I switched in from victim mode into confident mode." Exactly. I'm I switched into I'm going to take you on even if I lose. This is going to be ugly and everybody's going to see this. And just the fact he didn't want that. He didn't want that kind of visibility. And he certainly didn't want to have his friends know that he took on a woman, a white woman in, you know, and got any kind of injury. That would have been sort of a deflation. So I was counting on that. I was counting on his machismo working against him and it did.

So those are the things that you can do in your benefit is be alert, stay aware, re recognize that we don't owe anything anybody anything that people are responsible for their own needs and their own own emotional well-being. So you all of these things can help you protect yourself better. If you don't want to do it, then you don't need to do it. There's no need to do anything for anybody that you're not in the mood in enthusiastically interested in doing. Yeah.

I somebody was saying I heard from two women who had a similar thing happen. One was ended up being harmed by the bar musicians because she was drinking and demean he demeaned her and drove away and the other person had invited her to the home her home and then he attacked her. Yeah, I I yeah, I've heard those stories too. I have a good friend that told me about how that had happened to her as well.

Hey, thank you so much guys for this gift. Thank you for the way that you've hung out with me today. I really really appreciate this so much. Yeah, I was just talking to somebody. I think one of the thing Okay, so I've been lately and part of my I one of my goals for 2026 is and I know I don't talk a lot about this, but I've been um I've been diagnosed with arthritis, pretty significant arthritis in my feet, and it c it causes intense pain and then it causes pain all the way up. I have knee pain and back pain and all of that which then impacts you because you move less and then when you move less you gain weight and then it makes the pain worse and it just becomes this very negative feedback loop. So one of my big goals for 2026 is to stop that. And I've hired a private physical therapist to work with me. So I've started working with him and it's already making a huge difference. And where was I going with this? I had a reason why I was telling you all this.

Yeah. is that I really want to it's not just what my goals are. It's about how about safety and more than I don't want to fall. That's one of the things is I don't want to get older and be fragile and fall. But I where was I going to go with this? I forgot where I was going to go with this. Oh, I know where I was going to go with this. Okay. One of the things he said is you roll your shoulders forward. I was being embarrassed because I couldn't remember what I was trying to say. He said you roll your shoulders forward. And I he said you're like a lot of women who feel uncomfortable about your chest, so you hide it. And the way you hide it, women roll their shoulders. So they sort of deemphasize it. He says, "You need to stop doing that because it's hurting your posture and hurting your frame and it's causing more pain." And I was telling a guy this and they were like, "What?" He said, I said, "Yeah, a lot of women, we roll our shoulders forward as a way to sort of hide our chest. We don't like to have our chest stick out so far. It makes us feel kind of exposed and vulnerable and we don't like what do what do you mean?" Like, yeah, we actually walk. I I started to explain the way that we walk around to protect our ourselves from being an object, you know, the way that we try to become invisible so that we don't become targets because it's just too dangerous to be feminine. And I I re I think most people have no idea that we do that that so many of wh I mean so when I was back younger and thinner and and you know in my 20s and out in and using public transportation I would have men box me in on buses and box me in on the subway on the bar out in San Francisco. I had to have men proposition me in the on the sidewalk um or brush up against me or push against me. You know, there was so many type I don't think, in fact, I don't think there's a woman alive who's not been assaulted. I think that we just kind of live in a culture that does that constantly and as a result, you just learn to try to keep yourself small and you'll fold in on yourself because it just is too it's just it's too intim it's it risks too much and you don't want that risk. You don't want that attention.

But yeah, I'm I'm very hopeful about this this I'm excited about working with his PT. Um I'm looking at what else you guys said. Yeah, I am proud of that. It's going to be hard work. I know my goal is by the end of the year I'm going to be here's how the diff he's given me assignment. It's not I'm a it's not a hard assignment for most people. But it's become hard for me because of all the pain. I have to walk every day a certain amount every single day. And when I first did it the first day, my pace was super slow and my stride was short. And in one week of just doing that every single day, my I gained 4 inches in my stride and I sped up by a a full one mile per hour. Just doing it every single day. And I wasn't even trying to do it faster. I just became faster. So yeah, it's amazing how it's amazing how just having someone kind of hold your hold make you accountable, really look at you, look at what's going wrong can really make massive gains. And that's that's a good transition as we wrap up today. And thank you again for following me for this very tough conversation.

The same comes with us and the healing of narcissistic abuse. Narcissistic abuse isolates us tremendously and we become ashamed to talk about these things. we end up thinking that there's something weird about this or we asked for it or maybe that no one will understand or that it's we just feel really really alienated. And I want you to know that you're not alone and that that's what the membership is for. And even for just simply $5 a month, you can come for their monthly Q&A. We have quarterly events. We now have weekly challenges and weekly activities with a club lounge where you can communicate with other club members. So just for simply $5 a week or I'm sorry, $5 a month, you can cut through the isolation and get all the paid subscription benefits. And so if you're feeling like you're cut off and you need help, I really would love you to consider becoming a part of the toxic free relationship club. It's never been a better time to join than it is right now. In fact, for March, Bill Eddie is coming to speak to the group for 90 minutes. You know, take your questions about a highly a high conflict relationship that you're struggling with. Bill Eddie, you get to sit down with Bill Eddie and ask him a question. Can you imagine that? So, I really love to have you be a part of that. And the lineup that we've got for this year is is just like Bill Eddie. So, I'm bringing in top experts that you get a live Q&A with these individuals and ask them the thing. Have you ever read a book and thought, I wish I could sit down with this individual? Well, I'm going to try to bring them to you so that you can. That's one of my goals.

So, thank you so much, guys, for being with me today. I really appreciate this and uh I'm thrilled that you stuck it through this tough topic today and I hope that we all could have a safer 2026 as a result of that. So, thank you so much and I will see you guys next week and we're going to talk about how betrayal, how cheating is a form of violence. So, I hope you'll come back next week at 4:00 p.m. Central Standard Time, and I'll see you then. Bye-bye.

[Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] [Music]