Transcription
Okay, so now Steven Naismith and Max Kellerman are going to pontificate on what LeBron James' legacy will be. Check it out on ABC, 3:30 p.m. Eastern. If King James scores 25 points against the Thunder, he will become the youngest player to reach 30,000 career points, beating Kobe Bryant by a year.
Steve Naismith: When we look back on LeBron's career someday, what should he be remembered for most?
Max Kellerman: Let me say this before Stephen answers her question. And this is what I talk about when I, when, when I talk about narrative and and how the NBA likes to advertise its newest stars. And it's nothing wrong with that. But notice that since the proliferation of NBA players coming into the NBA straight from high school or after one year of college, the new standard for achievement in the NBA is the youngest to do something. Why is that? Because they know that if they use the youngest metric, that it will glorify the newer stars. If they were to have stats, they said, "Who got to 30,000 points in the fewest games?" We all know that it's going to be either Wilt or Michael Jordan. But the NBA does not want it to look like the league is not as good now as it was back then. So they're gonna change the metric to youngest.
Championships, meaning like thereof, LeBron James as a talent will probably go down as a top three talent of all time, maybe top two, definitely top five. He's one of the greatest players in the history of basketball. Well, no, if you're talking about talent, top two, top talents that will come to the NBA, he's definitely top, top five. If you're talking about talent, pound-for-pound, inch-for-inch, he's definitely at least top five. That is undeniable. I don't care what the haters try to say. But in the end, you know, he's starting to climb up there. He's got five NBA Finals losses. It's likely going to be six this year, and the way things are looking, it'll probably end up being seven or eight. We're starting to talk about him in the same breath as Jerry West. And I hate that. I don't hate that because what it does is it forces people to view Jerry West's career with a greater level of respect. Because Jerry West did not play in, in the, "I'm not happy with this team, I'm gonna run to that team" era. He had to play the same team every year, even though he knew that he had the same team every year, so the result would most likely be the same. See people, this is why I said when you evaluate things, it always has to be done in its proper context. LeBron James being three and five is worse than Jerry West being one and eight because Jerry West could not run to another team. He couldn't, he couldn't formulate trades with the GM like LeBron James can. Jerry West was a player, you had to see you at the stay in his position. LeBron is our all-time great. But this is why I put him in the Wilt Chamberlain class. He's a Wilt Chamberlain of this generation, a transcendent physical force who came up short in clutch moments. That's how I view him. Still a transcendent athlete, but on the level of Michael Jordan or Magic Johnson and Larry Bird or Bill Russell, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar? No. Now, if he wins one more championship, I'll put him above Bird. But as of right now, number six on my list. And was a phenomenal basketball player. The silhouette, even though I'm one who deserves who believes that Michael Jordan should be the silhouette, that no, I shouldn't. Bill Russell should be the silhouette. Michael Jordan already has his own emblem. He doesn't need to be the silhouette of the NBA. The silhouette of the NBA should be Bill Russell. He won the most championships. He's the one who broke through and, you know, in the era where blacks were first starting to take a hold in the NBA. He should be the, he should be the silhouette. Now, Michael Jordan was whatsoever, because even he agrees with that at this particular moment of time. But one and eight in an NBA Finals, even with that, here's the difference. You know why we can look at Jerry West? We know 6'2", 6'3" guard, whatever the case may be. Yeah, he was the Steph Curry of his day. He kept running into Bill Russell and the Boston Celtics. That is not the case with LeBron. We didn't expect you to beat San Antonio the first time, but we damn sure expected you to beat the Dallas Mavericks. Y'all would have favored you. You lost that year. When you won the championship against San Antonio, Ray Allen came and saved the day. Even though LeBron showed up in Game 7, the following year they got obliterated by more than 70 points, or about 70 points over a five-game series in which they got thrown, blowing out of there, and LeBron did not play very well in that series. He played well in the first two games, I believe. Game 1, he had that cramp issue, you know, which normally happens to people when they're taking PEDs, but, you know, it is what it is. But those games in Miami, he did not play well. And then of course, he came back to, they came back to San Antonio and got blitzkrieg. Okay. Even though you lost to the Golden State Warriors when you didn't have Kyrie and Kevin Love, you lost to them last year because Kevin Durant pulled one of your moves. In the eyes of your critics, and on top of it all, don't say in critics that get on him about trying to be passive-aggressive or calling him a prima donna. Those same critics point to the fact that any kind of balance of power that has shifted, those guys learned that from LeBron James. Yes, this is a new NBA. Much like prior to World War I, the, you know, planetary politics were localized. You had your own government, you pretty much stayed to yourself. After World War I, when they formed the League of Nations, that was the first attempt to create a global government. That's pretty much what LeBron James did when he, you know, changed the, you know, the methodology through which a player would, you know, or could conceive his options. And that's like, and that's a good thing. That's a good thing what he did in changing a player's comprehension or understanding of his own power. But very similarly, that's what happened in World War I. When prior to that, leaders were pretty much viewed as local representatives or local authorities, and then after World War I, they came together to form the League of Nations. I wouldn't know. We know that was in, that was in the under the inspiration of socialism to globalize the world, bring everybody under the thumb of the international bankers. But very, very similar concept in that regard. So here, walk away with all the money in the world. Here, walk away being recognized as as one of the greatest ever, top five, easy, probably top two or three. But in the end, they're going to count those championship losses against LeBron. If he keeps losing, he wins a couple more, that would be different. But if we saw the last of LeBron James as a champion, and he keeps losing to Golden State, they're gonna be like, "King of what?" That's how they're gonna come at him. He should be remembered, and I believe he will be, when all is said and done, as the second greatest player who ever lived. Now, the championships are significant as it relates to Michael Jordan. Stephen A., you and I, as you would say, religiously bring up on this show. Yeah, you religiously bring it up because you view Michael Jordan as a deity. And all he was was a great basketball player. Championships just don't matter in regards to Jordan. Championships matter in general. It's about how many championships did you lead your team to? That is why I say you can argue that Bill Russell or Kareem are greater than Jordan. I would have no problem with somebody who stated that they feel like Bill Russell is the greatest player ever. You certainly have, you know, a background or enough ammunition to promote that, that, you know, that feeling. Bill Russell was the greatest high school basketball player. You know, he was the greatest college basketball player. He won the national championship in college. He won in the Olympics. And then he came to the Celtics and won 11 championships. You can easily make the case that he's the greatest or the most impactful basketball player ever. Of course, Kareem won six championships in the pros. He won titles at UCLA. He was the greatest high school basketball player, arguably of all time. And then Michael Jordan, you can argue him. Michael Jordan, I take over him because he totally changed the NBA paradigm. This is the first non-big man to lead his team to multiple championships while totally altering how people conceived the game to be. For a wing to lead the league in scoring, dominate the basketball, and still be a champion. Oscar Robertson couldn't do it. Jerry West couldn't do it. They had to join up with dominant big men to have an opportunity to win championships. Jordan was the first guy to lead his team in scoring as a wing and also dominate in a big man era. That to me is what puts him over everybody else. It's not just about championships. You also have to qualify the championships. But championships is a major, major parameter. How many championships you led your team to? That's a major parameter in the Finals. It's one of the reasons, but not the only reason, that he is obviously the greatest player who ever lived. But LeBron James will go down after Jordan as the greatest. He would be the second greatest ever. You know, once upon a time in the NBA, this guy centered as if he's the one in charge of verifying the list, the official list of NBA greatest players. The thought was it could only ever be a big asset back to the basket, rim-protecting type scoring center type who could be the greatest, right? Wilt or Bill Russell or a Kareem or someone like that. Jordan is the one who changed all that. Oh, look at that. A guard can be the greatest. Whoever did it? Agreed. Good point. And LeBron is a guy. And since Jordan, the perception has changed. Hey, maybe it's the guy with the ball in his hand who controls the destiny of the game more than any other. Who can get his own shot? Who can make his teammates better? And that is LeBron. Look, LeBron does have five Finals losses. Stephen A., Magic hit four. And it's not like LeBron is, yes, Magic had four, but he had more wins than he had losses. Max Kellerman: Please stop. Has only one championship. It's not like his championship list is only one or even two. Yes, three championships. Yes. But Jerry West, one and eight, is even more impressive than LeBron's three or five because Jerry West could not run to another team. He actually had to stick it out with the team that he was on. Once again, I have no problem with LeBron leaving to put himself in a more advantageous position. That's what you're supposed to do. Well, we start having these discussions about all-time greats, that it's going to factor in, and it is going to be a detriment. Agreed. And that's certainly a valid point. But let's also understand that Magic Johnson's first championship in 1980 and his last championship in 1988, the rosters were completely different. Other than Kareem and no Michael Cooper, but he had either Kareem or Worthy or both with other all-star caliber players. And Magic is before Jordan was maybe the greatest non-center who ever lived. The standard has changed. That wasn't sure. But those teams never even, Kobe never had to run into a team like Golden State. So I think people will recognize that Golden State got Kevin Durant, became unfair to the rest of the league. Oh, give me a break. Look, the Golden State was a team who drafted well. So I have a hard time associating this super juggernaut with Golden State in regards to how the media were trying to put or trying to protect LeBron. Have created this aura around Golden State as if they're this Frankenstein monster. Nobody saw this coming with Golden State. I mean, there's no people who come in my comments who talked about how Klay Thompson is not a Hall of Famer and Draymond Green probably won't be a Hall of Famer. And all this other stuff. So don't tell me that there is still some dispute over how good Golden State is individually, and then tell me how they're this monstrous team. What they do is they coalesce well, they come together well. And when you add a Kevin Durant, that's what makes them a super great all-time team in regards to talent. Because the 2016 Golden State team is probably the greatest team ever in regards to synergy. Because a lot of it players, let's be honest, are borderline castoffs. Even their higher, even their higher draft picks like Steph Curry or Klay Thompson, even though they were drafted in the first round, there was still some dispute over what they would become in the NBA. Nobody thought that Steph Curry would become this all-time great player in the NBA. He had a very, very high bust factor because of his physique and his game was viewed as being a jump shot-oriented game. Now, no one knew that he would usher in the era of the jump shot. So that's what makes him a transcendent player. But, you know, at the end of the day, LeBron, you can't, you can't make the case that LeBron has to be graded in the context of going against one of the all-time great teams in Golden State. And then come and tell me that, well, he'd be 273 and 19. Well, will he be going state? So you can't have it both ways. Either you can beat them or you can't.
Max Kellerman: Magic Johnson for the vast majority of his career ran in the Boston or ran into the bad boy Detroit Pistons, thick, or the Sixers. That's number one. Number two, when you look at Matt, when you look at LeBron James, take out the 2017 that faced the San Antonio Spurs. One would argue he had a crew. Now, that doesn't mean the opposition didn't have a crew, but LeBron had a crew. He had a crew that was capable of winning the championship at least six, if not seven, out of the eight years he's been in the Finals. Absolutely. Seven out of the eight years, LeBron James had a team behind him that approximately the team that he faced in the Finals, and he was unable to be the deciding factor in five of those championship runs. Okay, bottom line, that is a fact. It doesn't matter what anybody says. He had, I did not say the opposition wasn't a crew. He had a crew good enough for you to sit back and say, if you're the best player in the world, can you not find a way?
Steve: I'll look at this. Let's, let's analyze. I break this down. There's, yes, it is true. We set up there, we look at the greatness of a Scottie Pippen, which we have to pay homage to. There's no doubt about that. But collectively as a team, Michael Jordan has something to go up against. When he went up against, not the first championship with LA, the second championship against Portland, yes. The third championship against Phoenix, yes. A couple of championships against Utah. Cattle, the championship finals against Seattle. Well, that's the era SuperSonics team. If they were around today, they would be a championship-level team. And their team was actually built to play in today's era. They didn't have a dominant big man. They took a lot of threes. They were very athletic. Gary Payton, Shawn Kemp, Detlef Schrempf, Sam Perkins, Hersey Hawkins on that team. They had shooters. They certainly would be dominant today. That's the outer SuperSonics team. They went 64 games that year that the Bulls played them in the Finals. That happened. These were teams that were bona fide championship caliber teams. You know what the difference was? They ran into Michael Jordan. So some way. So, so we're a long way. Hold on, hold on. All I'm trying to say is somewhere along the way, think about where I'm going for this. I'm not just, I'm not disputing the TZ win against. I'm saying to you, Max, in a question form, do you not ever sit back and just say, I understand all of this stuff about the team, but if I got the best player in the world, should it he be enough to overcome some of those obstacles, especially since he had at least a mini crew? Winner? Absolutely.
Max Kellerman: Let's get into this. Answer's no to that. If Michael Jordan is the standard, LeBron James fails. Jordan's better than LeBron. The advanced analytics like Jordan better than LeBron, both at his peak and for his career averages. Jordan's one of the killer. Jordan's a greater player. LeBron's not gonna catch Jordan. Jordan's the greatest. Let's leave Jordan out of that because he changed the standard. Agreed. LeBron James has one team he went up against that he should have beaten in the Finals, and he didn't. That's the Dallas Mavericks. I do this shirt against them, or at least I did until he redeemed himself. Right. Uh, no. Well, we're talking about a career valuation. You cannot, you can't not hold something against a player who failed on the level that LeBron James failed against the Dallas Mavericks. That is the biggest flop for a superstar in championship history for any sport, period. I mean, when you talk about a superstar in the level of LeBron James, his performance against the Dallas Mavericks in 2011 was the biggest flop, the biggest choke over series of any superstar in sports history, period. It's just an amazing accomplishment. Sorry, appearance. It's just an amazing accomplishment that he dragged that team to the Finals. That's amazing. Of course, he had no chance to win. I don't care how great he was. That team had no business in the Finals, let alone losing, let alone winning in the championship game. A series last year against Golden State. No, the best player in the world was not enough, even with a crew, to overcome a superior crew. They were about evenly matched before the addition of KD. That's why you amended the addition of KD. It made it unfair. So that's another one. They had no shot. And that's to just take off the board. How many Finals losses you want to talk about? Because that's two right there. And the one to the Spurs. I actually hold against him. This is what a lot of LeBron James superfans and the mainstream liberal sports media like to do. They like to go through all of his losses and make a bunch of excuses. Now, we can go through the losses of every great player in NBA history. We do the same thing. I could say, well, you know, the reason why Magic lost in 1989 to the Pistons was because he had a torn hamstring and and then Byron Scott went down with a torn hamstring. And then in '91, Magic lost to Michael because Magic was quote-unquote old and James Worthy went down with an injury and Byron Scott went down with an injury. And oh, the reason why Larry Bird lost to Magic in '87 was because Kevin McHale had a broken foot. You see what we can do when we go through every player's lexicon and we want to scrutinize it and make excuses for their legacy? It doesn't work like that. At the end of the day, you are what your record says you are, period. And I agree, LeBron James got to the Finals in 2007. They really didn't have a chance against San Antonio because San Antonio was levels above LeBron in regards to the understanding of the game of basketball. Gregg Popovich knew that LeBron James was playing the LeBron James system. He wasn't playing road basketball. He was playing the LeBron James system. And he got past Detroit because Detroit was old. They were older. They were at their end. And they had a new coach in Flip Saunders who did not really understand how to defend LeBron. That's what happened. And we, when you, when you look at LeBron, other Finals performances, we all know Ray Allen saved this. But in 2013, he got blown off the court. In 2014, 2015, people said, well, Kyrie and Kevin Love went down. Well, that's the same thing that I stated about Magic Johnson in '91 when James Worthy and Byron Scott went down. Nobody goes back and says, "Oh, well, Magic really is not five and four, he's really five and two." It is what it is. You are what your record is. In '98, when the Bulls played the Jazz in the Finals, Scottie Pippen had to get a shot in his back in Game 6 because he had a spinal issue. Jordan still made it happen. It was close.
Steve: You were saying he was so great. I'm saying if you're saying so great, that's my argument. Absolutely. If LeBron has truly levels above Kevin Durant, and Kevin Durant not even in his stratosphere, then it should not make a difference. They go and stay picked up Kevin Durant because after 2016, everybody was talking about how LeBron James is the greatest player ever. He beat the greatest team ever, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Golden State was already a match for Cleveland, even with LeBron, before they added KD, who's a top three player. I don't care what team you do it. Just at a certain point, it's too many Monstars even for the greatest player in the game. I want to say what, well, why is Golden State a match for Cleveland if there's nobody on Golden State who can match LeBron? That's what Stephen A. is trying to ask you, Max Kellerman. Now, Stephen A. needs somebody in his ear to help him out because that Stephen A. is playing off so very well. If Kevin Durant is not on LeBron's level, as Max Kellerman has claimed, and not not even near his level, that's what he has stated. And no, if Max Kellerman wants to counter that with, "Well, he got added to Golden State," well, then how can you say that Golden State was already on Cleveland's level if they didn't even have Kevin Durant? So who was it on Golden State who was on the level of LeBron James, who you're trying to act like was there by himself when he had Kyrie Irving? So basically, you're saying that LeBron James and Kyrie Irving are not even on the level of the original Golden State team, or their, or their close, or similar? So basically, what you're saying is that Steph Curry is commensurate to LeBron James? No, he's here on your point. He's just been disingenuous when he was loaded in San Antonio was something less than the best version of Golden State. That is true. But Magic Johnson lost to Larry Bird, and Larry Bird lost to Magic Johnson when they had loaded teams. But the other team was also loaded. Again, it comes down to, if Jordan is the standard, LeBron can't pass that test. But the standard of anyone else, LeBron passes with flying colors. Well, you could say that. But I would tell you, Kobe won five of seven Finals. He was in. Magic won five of the nine titles he was in. Or the problem with that is that Kobe was earned the lead guy on two championship teams. Steve, and look, I know the Kobe people are gonna jump in my comments. I don't give a [ __ ] as I stated before, the factor is how many championships have you led your team to? Okay? So once again, that is why I would Bill Russell in that argument of greatest ever has a losing record in the NBA. That doesn't take away from his individual greatness. Okay? It doesn't take away from his individual greatness. But the reality is is that if he is the greatest in the world, and I got Kyrie and Kevin Love, you had Chris Bosh. You got to remember when they lost the second finals to the Spurs, they had relatively the same team that they had when they beat the Spurs a year. That's true. But that second, that second Miami team that played the Spurs in a rematch, something was going on with Dwyane Wade that meant looked like the Stay Puft Marshmallow Man. His face was all swole up. Either he had an allergic reaction to some type of medication that he was taking, or maybe he was dealing with some type of illegal drug or, no, allegedly, who knows? But something was going on with him. Winning at seven to get obliterated at five the very next year. These are easy. He, he didn't have Dwyane Wade. Dwyane Wade really is the one who saved his ass in 2013 as well. If you guys remember, Miami was down two to one against San Antonio in 2013. And Gregg Popovich was single covering LeBron James and and instructed Kawhi Leonard to give LeBron about five feet of space. So it was Dwyane Wade who really saved LeBron in that 2013 Finals with that Game 4 performance, really brought Miami Heat, B, Miami Heat out of the flames. And then of course, we know what Ray Allen did in Game 6.
Steve: Jordan, oh wait a minute. Is the issue with that Popovich's adjustment to LeBron was to give him five feet of space? I've already stated. Gregg Popovich knows LeBron James very well. He knows what LeBron likes to do. When he knows that everything that LeBron is going to play the same style, they're gonna play the LeBron system. LeBron is going to dribble the ball at the top of the key. He's gonna survey the floor. He's gonna wipe his jersey with his left hand. He'll pass. And he's very good, possibly. But he also turns the ball over a lot. And up until about three years ago, LeBron had very little confidence in his jump shot. So that is really how you played LeBron. You just played off of him. Put the pressure on him.
Max Kellerman: Well, Steve is frustrated right now because of Max Kellerman being the LeBron James superfan that he is. I don't know why he allows up to get frustrated by it. Whenever you're dealing with many of the members of the liberal sports media, they're going to change the narrative. They're gonna change the goalposts so they can keep their LeBron James infatuation going. And LeBron is a great player. But if you're going to evaluate him, you have to create consistent barometers so that it so that it seems like an actual realistic conversation. See, there he goes again. The normal LeBron James to per fair statement. He'd be 273 wins. Well, if he beat a 73-win team, then why are you saying that Golden State was on his level even prior to Kevin Durant getting there? If LeBron James's levels above every other player in the NBA, it doesn't make sense that a Stephen A.'s point. But anyway, peace.