Transcription
So what happens when we die? It's a question that humanity has wrestled with throughout history. But a new study conducted by NYU may have found some answers. Dr. Sam Ponyo is the director of Critical Care and Resuscitation Research at NYU Langone School of Medicine, where he ran this study. Thank you so much for joining us, Dr. Partner.
Thank you. What would you say, what actually happens when you're clinically dead? You know, when people die, essentially is when the heart stops. So this has been going on for, as far as we know, millennia. No longer. And when the heart stops, you stop breathing, and your brain shuts down. And that's how we declare people dead. That's where we gave a time of death. And we give them a note. And really, to be honest with you, until about 50 years ago, that was the point of death. So if you become lifeless, motionless, the brain shuts down.
But now, through advances in medicine, we can actually bring people back to life even after they've gone beyond that threshold of death and study what happens to them. And one of the interesting things, of course, is that the brain completely shuts down, as I said. But what's fascinating is that the cells inside the body, and particularly the cells inside the brain, do not suddenly become annihilated. They go through a process of decay that can take a few hours. Which is why we can actually medically bring people back to life after they have technically gone beyond that threshold of death for tens of minutes, after hours of time afterwards. And that, of course, raises many interesting questions about what happens when we die.
So tell me more about this study. How did you conduct it? And tell me about, you know, how you came about reaching your findings, your conclusion.
No, I'm an intensive care doctor. So my job is to essentially save people's lives and prevent them from dying. But unfortunately, we'll do die, and we try to revive them. What we have found is that over the last few decades, many millions of people have now come back. And many of them have reported actually anecdotally that they've been able to see and hear things going on, even though from our perspective, they should have been dead and the brain should not be functioning at all. And so we became intrigued to study this. One, because it was fascinating, and two, because we try to revive people without brain damage and to ensure they don't have any disorders of consciousness. So I'm not becoming like brain-damaged or having a vegetative state, at any rate.
So this particular study, there's the largest study ever carried out in the world. It was done at 15 medical centers across the US and in Europe. And we studied more than 2,000 people who'd gone through this cardiac arrest or process of death. And we did not expect people to have any consciousness or awareness. But intriguingly, up to 40% of people came back and had had a perception of being aware of what was happening to them, even though they had technically gone beyond the threshold of death.
Why do you think that is?
Well, there's a lot to it. I should also add that among that group, 10% had a very deep, profound mystical experience that was very true to them. But interestingly, 2% actually had full awareness, could describe all the events that were going on that were validated. So, of course, the question is, why does that happen? And we don't have the answers. Because to our scientific model, when people have died, there should be no more conscious awareness going on. But it sounds like maybe consciousness is able to continue. And by that, I don't mean that they're awake, but that entity that makes us who we are, makes Sam who he is, makes Rena who she is, the self, the mind, seems to continue and doesn't become annihilated after a person has gone through that process of death.
Were there any of the people that you study that completely lost all consciousness?
Well, that's what I was trying to explain. Everybody loses consciousness immediately as soon as the heart stops. It's not like they're awake and watching us.
Well, you mention that there are some people who remember there's some sort of mystical experience that they were going through. Whether some people have said, "Nope, didn't feel anything." Didn't. So some people don't have any recollections. What we don't know is whether they had experiences and forgot it afterwards. And that may be what's happening. Because of course, we forget a lot of things. And most of the people who are brought back have issues to do with their treatments. We give them sedative drugs, which wipes out their memories. So that's part of what we're studying now is, does everybody have this experience? And how long does mind and consciousness continue in some format, even though we've gone beyond the threshold of death?
Do you have some sort of conclusion as to how far the mind and consciousness goes?
Again, from what we can determine, which is actually fascinating and it raises questions about our whole science about what happens when we die, is that it appears that even though people have gone beyond that threshold of death and their brain has shut down, that entity that we call consciousness, the mind, the psyche, whatever you want to call it, does not seem to become annihilated from the evidence we have, that at least tens of minutes, if not hours of time afterwards. How long beyond that, we don't know at this point.
Have that for the folks who have lost consciousness and come back, have there been any long-term effects afterwards?
Well, those people who have these very deep, profound mystical experiences, often they describe a sensation of being very peaceful, seeing a bright, warm, welcoming light, sometimes deceased relatives. And intriguingly, some of them describe a sensation of a being that they described as being perfect and full of light and love and compassion. Those who have that experience are often very positively transformed for the rest of their lives. It's very profound, it's real to them. They become less afraid of death, they lose their fear of death completely, they engage in altruism, they're more helpful to people, they engage more with family. It completely changes them. There's something very profound about this experience that they have.
We often hear people say, "I saw the light." Some sort of light. Why do you think it is that some people see that and some people don't?
Well, so there are two possibilities. One is that, as you said, only some people see it. And we think that, you know, it might be 10%. But the alternative is that everyone sees it. But unfortunately, because of the medical treatments that they get afterwards in the intensive care unit by doctors such as myself to save their brain, they forget it. And one of our new studies is trying to actually decipher whether people have had it but just forgot about it. And so I think there is some evidence that more people are having it, but unfortunately, just forget it afterwards.
It's a fascinating study and a fascinating looking to death and those final moments as well. And we're turning back. Dr. Sam Partner, thank you so much for joining us.
To be here.