William Filipek Talks Pythons, Feeding Hacks, and 15 Years in the Reptile Game

What's going on, everybody? Thank you for being here. It's Proper Royals Live. I got William Filipec from TJW Exotics on the show tonight. If you haven't met William, uh, stick around. If you have met William, then you know why you should be here. Uh, sorry for a little bit of the late start. We're working out a couple technical difficulties and now I'm buying time while I find the show intro. Here we go.

[Music] [Music] What's going on, everybody? Thanks for being here. It is Proper Royals Live. We do this every Tuesday night, 8:00 PM Eastern, whatever time it is, wherever you're at. Thank you for being here. Uh, I am in uh Minnesota. Uh, wherever you are, I hope you're enjoying summer. We are h it's even hot up here. So if it's hot in Minnesota, wherever you're at is probably hot, but got a little break coming tomorrow. It's only supposed to be like a high of 70 tomorrow. That's going to be just beautiful break. It'll be nice for the animals, too.

So uh stick around tonight. I got William Filipec on the show from TJW Exotics out of uh Missouri. We're going to get into his business model. He's been around uh challenges like you wouldn't believe. Yeah, we're on the 5G. All right, we're going to see. I don't know. There's something uh something in the air tonight when it comes to Wi-Fi. I'm not sure what's going on. Uh, we're going to talk about uh business models and that stuff and then uh we'll get into some other personal stuff with William as well.

Not too many announcements, but a couple really cool ones. Uh, Thursday morning, I do a show called Proper Cup of Joe with my co-host, uh, Joe Arner. Joe is on a train traveling across the upper Midwest, actually on his way to Minnesota. He won't be on the show though on Thursday morning. So, I got Chris Eaton coming on the show. Uh, Chris is going to fill in. Uh, we will host a uh, morning coffee show together. Reptiles, a little bit of pop culture, some fun. So, uh, it's always fun when Chris shows up, but we have pretty big announcement. Uh, a new project that, uh, it's going to be, I guess it's a one-off, but it's a big like a like an annual thing. So, um, we've never done it before. And anyway, I'm going to leave it there because if I tell any more, then I'll spill the beans. So, you got to tune in on Thursday morning to check out that announcement on Chris and I's new big project. So, hope to see you then.

Uh, thanks to everybody that uh came out to the De Moines, Iowa Cold Blooded Expo show. I was down there this weekend. You know, De Moines's kind of a cool town. I'm not from the Midwest. I'm from Florida and moved here. I I don't I don't know. You never hear about De Mo. You don't think that there's uh much going on there. It's a good town, man. Good food, good entertainment. Uh, I not on this same trip, but I've uh seen uh Social Distortion in De Moine before. good uh restaurants and like I say, good uh night night scene. Every time that I've been there for shows, I usually go down the night before, hang out. I kind of like De Moine. It's a nice city. I got to say, I'm not like it's just one of those comfortable ones. I don't know anything specific to tell you about it or any history of it, but it's a good town. So, anyway, I enjoyed the show. Uh, if you get a chance and stop over in De Moine whenever you get a chance, I guess if you've not been.

Um, next show will be the snake discovery show for me in August. In the meantime, um, I've got I'm going to be IDing them and putting them into husbandry pro tomorrow, but I got two different clutches and I did pretty well. I did all right on the, uh, on the odds. The first clutch was a um, let me make sure I don't mess this up. An orange dream pied female to a lav orange lavender hat pied male. And I think I hit the super orange dream pied het lab. That'll be a hold back. And it's a male. So I got that's that was that was pretty good. But um, I think I've got a couple other super orange dreams. It'll be double het in there. And then I got two other visual pides I haven't sexed yet. And they're so high white. I don't know if they're orange dream or not. But anyway, those are going to be coming out to uh the marketplace. Patreon gets first dibs on those. After that, uh, you guys can message me if you want to do a little wait list on that.

And then secondly was a um pastel gravel het clown to I think just a clown. Um, but I think I hit five gravel clowns and then two pastel gravel het clowns and a pastel gravel clowns as well. Anyway, what I'm saying is there's a bunch of gravel uh clowns, gravel het clowns. And that's my second of those that pairing of uh this season. I had another female that I put that male to. So I've got some holdbacks already. So, I'm going to make a lot of those uh available if you're working the gravel or super gravel uh clown projects. Could be good stuff. Anyway, let me know about that.

Otherwise, uh, not too much going on. Summer kind of settles down. Everybody's out at a lake or fishing or uh road tripping or who knows what. Plus, it's hot. We're all feeling lazy, you know. So, anyway, hope you're enjoying summer, but not too much else going on. Um, lots more clutches to come. I'll keep you posted on those. Anyhow, let's get on with the show. William Philipek. Um, I'll let him tell a story tonight, but uh, he's been at this for, uh, at least 15 years by what I could, uh, put together from doing some show prep. And it's kind of a funny story because I knew the name William Philipek from the comment section in uh the live streams and I knew the brand TJW because there's certain points out on the road whether I'm either vending or live streaming or working with Redline or whatever. I would see him out on the road and I didn't realize those are the same people until until I met him in uh Colorado I think back in April and uh he was great to talk to and then when I pieced together that he was the same guy that's always been really cool and supportive in the comments and active and all of that I said man I got to get you on the show.

So, um, anyhow, for the very first time ever, please welcome to the proper royal stage from TJW Exotics, William Phillip. Try one more time. There we go. What's going on, William? How you doing tonight, man?

>> Pretty good, man. How about yourself?

>> I am good. I You know what? I think we both got a little of the the Wi-Fi devils uh screwing around with us.

>> I'm just I just don't want to jinx it, man. That's all I I wasn't gonna even acknowledge it. I usually I don't believe in bad luck and juju stuff, but in this case, I'm just like, you know what? Just not gonna jinx myself.

>> Hey, look, as the saying goes, the show will go on. We're gonna figure it out. We've got the uh we can always go audio only the old school way, you know, so uh you know, but uh no, it's uh it's flowing well. I can hear you see you and I know the audience can. So,

>> Oh, nice. And Jeremy's making uh inappropriate comments. That's nice. That's great. So, uh, how's life, man? How are things going?

>> Uh, it's gonna it's starting to get chaotic or it will be here soon. I'm starting to get clutches hatching and still getting quite a few clutches. I'm starting to get to the tail end of it. I only have like maybe just one maybe two more snakes to ovulate and then outside of that I'll just be building stuff up for the upcoming year and then getting stuff established.

>> For your uh let's just stick with ball pythons for just a moment. I know you do a lot outside of that too. For your ball pythons, do you find that they're all kind of clumped up in what they do? They're they're they're starting breeding at the same time. They're ovulating the same time. They're hatching at the same time or is yours pretty spread out?

>> Uh, so they used to be more spread out. I've kind of I hate to say forced them, but I've kind of made them uh more seasonal because I started working with a bunch of other species of pythons. So, I've had to just intuitively just made just make the ball python because there's a huge misconception that people have with ball pythons and they think they're hard to take care of or hard to feed or hard to do this stuff. But I I find that

>> I find that if you treat a ball python like a python, it acts like a python. It's pretty amazing. But I I will say there was going to be stuff I'm going to say today about certain things about feeding and stuff that's going to blow these ball python people's mind. They're not going to believe me. I just thought I'd preemptively warn people because if you're not used to feed cycling and hearing people's different methods of it, it's it can be pretty shocking to say the least. I do stuff very different than most people.

Well, I'm interested to hear and I'm finding like,

>> you know, the the the internet is a great place where there's more education, there's more connection, there's more knowledge than ever out there, but there's also more garbage than ever out there. And I get some of the craziest questions from like new, like brand new ball python owners, and I'm like, I've never heard of such a thing. And they're like, I thought you'd do this professionally. I'm like, I do. Ignore it. you I don't know anything about what you're you're talking about and I don't want to get specific because they're they're new customers and they're doing their best. are trying to learn as much as they can and I just have to sometimes say

>> look I can only tell you what works for me but I'm a oneman show handling hundreds of them and you could see they're healthy they're well cared for you can come to the facility all of that so um I'm actually interested to hear some of your some of your examples man uh the reason I asked about it being spread out a lot of times like people that have worked with ball pythons for say a decade plus I almost always find that their uh breeding females are like synced up like they they get they get each stage, you know, within 45 or 60 days of each other. Whereas I'm still like I have some that lay in March and some that lay in December, you know, and it it's

>> I kind of like it because I don't need 250 hatchling spots all at once. On the other hand, it seems like it'd be kind of nice to be like, "Okay, that part's done. and I can uh you know focus on other stuff or whatever. So you said uh you said something about uh not something you said if you treat them like a python they act like a python. What do you mean by that?

>> So I guess it'll just roll into like how I kind of feed stuff. Yeah.

>> So when the I think the reason why a lot of people particularly with ball pythons reason why I think a lot of people don't have seasons is because they don't really treat them. or seasonally treat their ball pythons. They keep them warm 24/7. They feed them all the time. And those are usually the two big triggers I've noticed with pythons. You know, most of the time it's food. Food's probably the biggest trigger for especially for equatorial, well, pythons being equatorial, they tend to be more, you know, food driven, you know, where in the wild they face, you know, feast and famine. So, essentially, I do the same thing in captivity. Like if I got a if I got a big I don't really have a bunch of giant ball pythons because that's another thing is I don't really like big ball pythons as as silly as that might sound because I

>> the females.

>> Yeah. Because the bigger the females for me and this goes across all pythons. The bigger the pi female is the harder it is for her to get back on well not get back on food but rebuild for the following year. The smaller they are the quicker they bounce back. And people always worry about clutch sizes, this and that. And I found that it doesn't seem to matter. I've had small females lay nine eight clutches, but they're just smaller eggs,

>> right?

>> And I've had giant females, like three or four thou, well, giant to me, three or 4 thousand gram females lay four or five eggs, but just giant, you know, softball size eggs almost,

>> right?

you know. So, yeah, I So, to me, size with me personally, I like keeping things smaller, you know, for breeding purposes. And um, but generally speaking, for me, when I feed, like right now, I'm pretty much I've cut ball pythons off food and I won't feed them again till November. And I'll

>> depending on how big the female is, I probably cut her off months ago. I'll give big big females. I'll give them five to six months off of food because you're most often people will see their ball python goes off food. Your ball python's telling you something.

>> It has a tank essentially has like a tank of fuel and you're reaching that limit of fuel, you know, and I'm not saying you can't have snakes underweight or there's an underlying issue where it's just there is something wrong.

>> Sure. Because, you know, I do have, you know, even with my methods, I still have maybe one or two females out of a hundred or so that'll uh, you know, they're just poopy eaters. You know, they just don't eat that well. I had a female eat

>> from the time I started trying to feed her, from the time she laid her clutch, she only had three meals, small rats or something, and she she and that's all she needed to lay. She laid a a tiny 48 clutch, but she uh ended up going the distance. So,

>> wow.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, go back to you said in in the uh with equatorial ball pythons, they would face uh like an annual feast or a famine. What's driving that famine period in the wild? Like in Minnesota, I would get it. The say the the field rats or field mice are are all, you know, they're hiding and staying warm. Uh, but in an equatorial setting, what's driving that feast and famine?

>> Uh, rainy seasons, wet seasons and stuff. Okay? you know, they go from, especially with ball pythons, they're found in semi-arid areas. So, they would go through dry periods and then, you know, rainy seasons and stuff. You know, certain animals that are more, you know, in the tropics and stuff, they'll they'll go from rainy season to even more of a rainy season, you know. It's like it goes from it's wet, now it's even wetter, you know, but ball pythons go from dry to wet, you know, for the most part,

>> you know. So, they face they face seasonal, you know, their prey. It's their prey essentially, you know. They'll uh as soon as the prey starts booming, you know, the females will feast, the females will go through a typically go through some their reproductive cycle. And during their, you know, their when they're gravid, that's when the fam the famine happens again. And then by the time they lay their eggs and uh hatch their eggs seasonally, it should be coming back around to that rainy season again.

>> Yeah. So it kind of like it's timed to where they you know where their babies get the uh feast section of uh the environment. So that's why it's kind of timed where they'll try to do it you know around those times. you know

>> how many so uh and so the timing right now would be that uh if if we wind the clock back to November you've you've you turn them back on to food in November then you're starting to pair them at some point after that and now you're at the time where they've laid their eggs and they're obviously they're not going to be eating when they're on their eggs anyway in the natural setting

>> right even even females that lay man this is going to sound crazy too is I don't do any of that washing method. I don't I find that that's kind of they'll eat if they're going to eat. You know, I've watched females that, you know, they didn't eat, you know, regardless if I cleaned them off or not. So, that seems to be just a, you know, just I don't know. It's just something that it's weird. It's just something that one person did, told someone else. Now it's like it's it's law now.

>> It's the thing, right? Yeah.

>> Yeah.

>> So, yeah, they uh what was I gonna say? Oh, never mind. Lost my train of thought.

>> That's right. How many I know that some uh and I'm thinking specifically of of one or two other breeders that I've had this conversation with. I can't say that I've tracked it this closely, but do you track how many how many meals do you aim for on a female that's laid to determine whether you'll breed her for the next season or if you're confident that she'll go or where's that number that you see for yourself? It sounds like it's pretty low in some cases.

>> Uh, it depends on the depends on the animal itself, too, because some species, even ball pythons, if I have a vigorous female, I'll feed her a bunch of small prey items.

>> I mean, I'll feed them as much as they'll take in one sitting. I could a fe like you guys, I know a lot of people feed ASF. I would feed

>> I would feed maybe if it was like a three or 4,000 gram female, I would feed her up to six ASFs in one sitting.

>> And then either co for a while, like week or two, and then do it again. And it fluctuates. If I don't have that much, then she'll get less. Or um if it's a female that's uh doesn't, if she's like a one and done, because sometimes you get those ball pythons where they they'll eat one and they're just they just don't anymore. I'll give them something a little bit bigger, you know, like a small medium rat or something like that. And if I'm not breeding them, here's the kicker, too. If I'm not going to breed them, I'm not going to feed them like I'll feed obviously, but they're going to get fed like a python that would just I call it coasting weight is where like you get fed when I remember to feed you and that could be a while. So, and what that means is and this is where things change. I will give that female and I'm talking anywhere from 1500 grams and above, I'll give them a retired breed of rat. Yeah. They'll get a really big meal and they'll

>> they'll coast till I like I said till I remember again. And this goes across all pythons. I don't want people to think that he just does. I do this to all pythons. You know, some pythons eat less. Some pythons

>> I might only feed four times a year to breed depending on what it is. So I it's just a method I've just used because it's just easier to do everything the same than it is to do you know ball pythons different carpet pythons different you know wma python it just it's easier just to do them all in a similar fashion. The only thing I do different is since I stopped feeding the ball pythons here in August, I'll start feeding a lot of my Australian stuff because I shut the Australian stuff off during winter because I still do a cool down, but it's only like a 10 degree drop. It's not like like Corey Woods will drop to like 55 degrees is wild to me. I don't I I barely get my breles pythons that low and those are a cold cold climate animal.

>> Wait, Corey drop Corey drops his ball pythons to 55.

>> 50 55. It's he has if you get on his Facebook or Instagram or something, he actually has a temp gun of him doing it. I'm like, "Wow, that's that's impressive." But as long as you give them heat during the day, they should still be fine. You Well, obviously they are for him because you wouldn't have ball pythons if they weren't. But, you know, usually with most pythons, they can handle it really cold as long as you give them heat during the day.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So, wait a minute. This is

>> Sorry, I'm hitting you with too much. No, I I love it because pe uh I'll talk to other like like the word podcast is still still so weird to me, but I'll talk to other podcast people and they're like and they'll be like, "Yeah, I usually write up like 20 questions." I'm like, "No, I write like three topics and then I see where the conversation goes and this is why because now I could just let my curiosity fly and then after the show I'll go rewrite the description so that the internet knows what it is and blah blah blah." But okay, so you're not talking 55 like 24 hours. The night would be

>> Yeah. Just like a 12. Well, like for me when I cool down, so the temperature, so I keep everything ambient. Everything stays 80 82 year round. Nothing gets a hot spot unless it's gravid,

>> right?

or um sometimes depending on the racks too because I have some animal plastic racks that if I keep cocoa in them and the CB70 style tubs and they're enclosed racks, they seem to have trouble heating up to a proper temperature, I might kick like a thermostat on them on a timer for 84 just to get through some of that substrate and everything. But other than that, yeah, everything I try to keep 80 82 year round and then whenever

>> I'm sorry to interrupt on the hot spot or the ambient.

>> Ambient. That's Yeah, ambient. Yeah. The whole room stays 80 82 and humid.

>> Yeah. So, it makes it fun work,

>> huh?

>> Year round.

>> Yep. Well, year round till And then the lights are 12/12.

>> Then come December, December is when I switch it from a 12/12 to a 10/14 light cycle. And then I start dropping the temps. So I'll start like 80 and then I'll st I'll uh spend the whole December dropping it to that the the key temperature being like 70 degrees. Doesn't have to be right on, but I set the the the thermostat to 70. Let it drop to 70 and then I'll keep it 70 all January night period, not day period. And then February I spend that whole time kicking it back up to where it goes back to 80 82. And then I shut every I give them back a 12/12 and you know.

>> So for for six weeks basically you're telling them hey pay attention the season's changing.

>> I try. Yeah. I try to Yep. Yep. Yep. I try to give them that and I don't necessarily think it's necessary to do because I know a lot of people just do that cycle feeding method I've told you and they do just fine with other pythons and stuff. So yeah.

>> Uh, Jen at Eerie Reptiles asks, "What do you use to heat your room?" And I had some questions about that, too. So, at night time, you would you would let the temp drop down to 70. Do you have a specific room thermostat? Are you doing this in the whole house or the whole building or what's it? What's

>> So, I got a I got a designated facility for this. So, I the rooms the rooms uh are heated with a Johnson thermostat connected to two uh two space heaters.

>> Okay. And there it's an on/off thermostat. So, you know, it'll as soon as it hits uh 82, the thermostat shuts off the the space heaters and then when it hits 80, it'll kick it back on. And then it's like I said, stays like that for mo and then if it's nice outside, every room, every ex every breeding room, because I got four rooms and three of them are breeding rooms, all of them have windows. So, if it's nice and humid out, I'll pop the windows and it kind of helps a little bit with electricity, you know, keeps the thermostats, you know, warm still. So, and then whenever I go to do the cool down, and this was my big mistake. I didn't realize how much an HVAC could would well just anything forcing heat or cool will evaporate it. Oh, now now I'm looking. I don't know how useful they are, but I didn't even know it was a thing. But I'm gonna get I'm gonna try to hook up a uh a full house humidifier because each room has their own humidifier. But the problem is once that cool air blow a cool, it doesn't matter if it's cool or heat. Any kind of heat will just evaporate the humidity. But if I can have the air itself and it'll save on electricity, too, you know, because humid humid air is typically is going to feel warmer. So, if I can have that help and then this individual because I like to try to keep the rooms around as low as 60 and then as high as they're able to get. I'll let it get up to 90% if it can get that high.

>> Oh, uh, humidity percentage, not 90 degrees.

>> Yep. Yeah, just the humidity. Yeah, I'll try to get let the humidity get up to 90 degrees or 90%, sorry.

>> Yeah. So, and the rooms and all the rooms are made out of PVC, too. So, they can handle as humid as it can get. It can Yeah. It's not drywall, so I don't have to worry about ruining drywall or anything like that. Yeah.

Um, I'll tell you in my experience, which is not as uh far as deep as yours in snakes, but I've run lots of restaurants and lots of dish pits, man. As long as you've got the uh like the plastic cover like the um uh it's a three three-letter um uh it's not uh uh RFI uh

>> I know what you're talking about. Yeah,

>> I look it up. It's got like the the texture on the surface.

>> Yeah,

>> as long as that water's not getting into the uh sheetrock, man, it does fine. I'm down here in a basement in Minnesota for two years. I had a commercial dish sink in here with, you know, kicking hot water at 120 degrees, man. And

>> I would love it when it would get steamed in here because for all the benefits you're talking about of the humidity.

>> Um, it's I've never had a I've never had a mold issue whatsoever. Now, different story if you got sanding water or a leak or it's seeping into the, you know, you don't have good trim on the floor or whatever, but I I'm with you on that, man. I I would load it up if I could.

>> Yeah. um on the uh oh going to the I'll share my own experience. So I've got the uh the space heaters and I like them. Um I have tried to hook up thermostats to them before and I fry the thermostats. I have fried herpstats. I have fried the cheapo inkbirds. I have I mean what thermostat do you use that handles the uh like my space heaters are rated like 15 or 1,800 watts but when they kick on it seems to spike and whenever they kick on is when it seems to fry them.

What thermostats do you use on yours?

>> The Johnson thermostat. I have to look up the series. It's like awoo man. I'd have to look up the series to send it to you. But it's a it's a good thermostat. I mean, it handle it's supposed to it it usually they usually use that thermostat to control big industrial freezers and stuff like that.

>> Oh, cool. Okay.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Something

>> each each room each room has their own Johnson, too. So, it's not like one Johnson's controlling what would it be? Two, four, six, nine spaces. Each Johnson's and each each outlet has its own uh switch. So, it's not like I'm loading a bunch of power and stuff on, you know, one circuit or something like that.

>> Oh, okay. You got one uh one heater per circuit.

>> Yeah.

>> Yeah. You probably have to.

>> Oh, yeah. You would you would you would be asking for some serious trouble. Yeah. But it I I I like this method more personally because I've always I've had issues with, you know, because I mean I couldn't even tell you how many racks I have or cages and stuff, but if I had to have thermostats controlling something, I inevitably always because I get a little lazy when it comes to checking thermostats, as long as they're on, off, or whatever, I usually don't pay too much attention to them. But usually that's what gets me in trouble because they don't sometimes a a level will spike and then I'll have an issue where nothing dies but it can cause a a slug out clutch or premature ovulation. You know, heat will always cause more problems than help in most cases when it comes to stuff like that. So, if I can just keep the heat to a bare minimum and not worry and not fluctuate them too much with heat because I I've noticed heat will cause issues with, you know, when it comes to reproduction. You know, if you hit them with too much heat or they get heat hit with too much heat, you know, if you don't kill the female, depending on how hot it gets, she'll slug out on you, especially if she's building. you know, that's that's a pretty that's a pretty fragile state whenever you and I think I've hit, you know, honestly, I think I hit the opposite of that, too. When I was telling you I was having problems heating uh in a animal plastic is is the PVC racks I prefer is um the solid sides because they got the economy rack which are open air more like they'd be more similar to like

>> the closed ones are nice. Yeah.

>> But they uh I never like the way they look personally so I just never got them. I used when as you in the show uh you put Ben Renick. Ben Renick is I'm a I'm a creature of habit. Ben was an animal plastic guy. So go figure when I finally was able to do a lot of this stuff I go with animal plastic. So but I never like the economy rack. So I got the solid side rack or solid enclosed racks. And I noticed if you put coconut husk in those racks, particularly the more centralized, if you got them lined up, the more centralized the rack is, it seems like it's harder for that the external heat to heat up that particular area, especially through the I think what it does is it heats it and whatever hum whatever moisture that coconut husk has evaporates and cools the air down and keeps it cooler because I had issues. Not I don't it wasn't issues nothing got I just had crappy clutch results because they the the rack was wasn't getting any anywhere from 74 to 77

>> and it wouldn't get any warmer or you know it'd get cooler if I was cooling stuff down but it wouldn't get any warmer. So I think I I I think I had the opposite issue in that case where I kept them too cool and didn't realize I was ignorant to it. So now if I if I I usually keep most my species on like ball pythons and all that on like uh aspen stuff, aspen shavings and

>> that's what I use. Yeah. Like the

>> Yeah. And I seem to it seems to not cause as much of an issue as far as that, you know, the heating and all that. So, you know, only the humid species or species like the burrow and stuff I typically give the coconut husk and stuff too.

>> I see. So on on ball pythons, what do you what's your what we talked about the ambient dropping and stuff, what about the hot side? What do you go for on your hot temps?

>> Oh, there is no hot side. It's 80 82. That that that that that's their ambient temperature. They don't get anything ex any uh external heat or any extra heat unless they're gravid,

>> right?

or gravid. If they're gravid, you know.

>> Yeah. And what temperature do you aim for on that? Uh, gravid females anywhere from 90 95 on the hot spot

>> inside the tub. That hot, huh?

>> Yeah. Well, that's the thermostat set. Whatever it is in there, I'm not too too concerned

>> because Oh, I got you. Well,

>> as long as you're not too crazy because I think something that people don't realize with pythons is most of the most of the incubation starts within the mother,

>> right? You know, people real think that it all starts when she lays eggs, but a lot of it starts within the mother. And so, you don't want to get them too crazy hot, you know, but you keep them at least I keep, like I said, 88, sometimes 88. I guess it depends. If it's a higher level cage or rack, I mean, it might be 88. If it's lower, I might have to kick it up to 90 because it's generally just going to be a little bit cooler down there.

>> Yeah.

>> So,

>> yeah. I um for for people that are going, "Wait a minute. I've only always ever heard 90 degrees on the hot spot." William's talking about the thermostat setting, which there could be a gap of air between the heat panel. There could be difference in the thickness of the tub.

>> Yeah. So, by the time that heat gets into the tub, like some of mine are set at 93 and like you say, some of mine are set at 100 because I had to get it to that temperature for the heat to transfer inside the tub to the 90. They'll still lay if you only kept them at 80 82, but it prolongs the laying process. Like if you So the minute she ovulates and goes, you know, once she comes down from the ovulation and at some point during when she has her pre-lay shed, if you give her heat, then she'll go through that, oh man, what is it like maybe 48 52 days or something through from pre-lay shed to actually laying the clutch. So if I if I give them like the ball pythons right now I have them that thermostat females I do have on on them on an on/off switch or thermostat so it shuts off after 12 hours, you know, 12 hours on, 12 hours off, so then they they go from that hot spot to then back down to 80 82 and I notice they'll take a little longer delay

>> compared to if I gave them 90 or whatever hot spot for the whole duration of period or whole duration of time then they'll lay more traditional 30 days at their pre-lay shed or whatever.

>> But, uh, if I don't, they'll they'll

>> it'll hold off quite a bit. I mean,

>> wow.

>> 45 50 days in some cases

>> after pre-lay shed and stuff. Yeah. It can it can take a minute.

>> Yeah. It's funny. Some uh some generational stuff. There's uh and I won't say anybody's name because I don't want to speak for them or that the last thing they need is to get hate mail from somebody who disagrees how they do stuff. Uh, they they just like you were talking about the on/off timers and this is somebody that's been at it for, you know, 30 40 years kind of a legend in the industry. Uh, they I think he said that they just do either four or six hours on of heat rope four or six hours off and there's not a thermostat at all. It's just on off and that, you know, the snake can move forward off the hot spot if it wants to cool off and then they cool everything off for four six hours and that's

>> that's what they do. I was like, "Wow." And I mean, this is somebody producing

>> 4 500 clutches a year. Like, they know what they're doing kind of. I mean, it just goes to show how many different ways there are to do things and accomplish goals. You know what I mean?

>> Yeah. Well, I think what helps too with ball pythons are and why I think they're some of the most adaptable pythons is it's it a recent paper came out about the uh the history of ball like the African species and there the four African species. I call them the fantastic four. And uh the ball python is the oldest lineage of snake. There was one colonizing group of pythons that made it to Africa 33 million years ago. And I think it was shortly after that maybe 26 27 million years ago is when ball pythons was a thing. And that's how long that species has been persisting for. it it's older than Angolans, both of the rock python species. It's older than a lot of species. I mean, it's an it's an old old lineage of pythons. So, that it doesn't shock me per se that they're so hardy because they've had to endorse so many different environmental changes over the years, you know, co uh climate changing throughout those time periods and stuff. So it's no wonder why they're they can handle a lot more than you know honestly a lot of pythons for that matter.

>> That's interesting. I didn't I mean I and again even at you know five years focusing on this professionally there's still a ton that I don't know. I've never uh I've never done a bit of of of studying on sort of the

>> Oh

>> I know you're a history buff too man. You like the you like homo sapiens history. I like uh any literally any like anything that dates like the epoch or further or you know I'm just a nerd when it comes to so like python evolution is just

>> it's one of the most fascinating things that something could be around for that long

>> and just keep trucking along and just

>> yeah not without arms and legs and still be doing just fine

>> and not built for speed and not built for agility just just hangs out just does its thing Like there's a good lesson there. Like just just chill out, get out of the way, let the world make its dumb decisions all around you.

>> Right. Right.

>> But yeah. Yeah. No, I I I love ball pythons, though. I people like, you know, I got, you know, because I've kind of my foot in one door being the ball python world and my other foot's in the miscellaneous world. It's funny how those two sectors have been divided since I would say almost since 2000s. Ever since the morph craze hit, they there seem to be a just a wall. I don't get why. I think

>> I think my mission in life is try to reunite you the ball python guys so we all can be one big happy family again because at the end of the day we're all pythons and to be honest I think if most of the miscellaneous guys almost curse but if they took their head out of their butt they can learn something from ball python people as far as like honest to god like I listen to a lot of podcasts I've been a podcast nerd since reptile radio days that's back in like 06 6 07 and till I think they stopped in 2014. So they've been doing it a long long time. They were the first reptile podcast

>> and um they'd have miscellaneous guys on and then you got the the other legends being like NPR and stuff, Melia Python radio and um stuff like that. When I hear people talk about miscellaneous pythons, like anything that isn't a ball python, and I hear the way they describe their breedings, and then after working for Ben, who had a real large collection, and then my fairly large collection, and just talk from talking from uh friends too in the ball python hobby, you start seeing uh commonalities among all these different pythons. Like people will say, "Oh, this species, you got to do like this." Well, it's funny because I've seen that same thing in python and ball pythons. you know, it's just they they take one sample size and they extrapolate it that must be the whole genus. It's like no, your sample size is small. You just assume because it's just a small like group of animals that this is what it has to be. But when you got ball pythons, I mean, you see an array you might have I mean I'm I don't know if you've seen this yet, but you might have some females that breed at two years old and you might have some females that wait till they're I've had females wait till six or seven.

I was gonna say I've got one that I know is five years old because I one of the very first hatchlings I ever bought. She's plenty big. She's there's plenty of ball pythons smaller than her that have given me eggs and she just

>> they are You said something at the very beginning of the show. Uh it's I won't quote you, but it's to the effect of listen to your animal. And it's so hard when I tell people

>> uh I think somebody took it the wrong way in the past week or two. I said, you know, I think your expectations are off. And they were like, "Well, what should my expectations be?" I was like, "Well, since you asked, listen to your animal. If it's not losing weight, if it's defecating healthily, you know, in a healthy way, uh you'll smell uh if there's an issue." Like, I was like, "Listen to your animal and and let it tell you what it wants. Some are going to eat." I just showed somebody I said, "These animals were born on the same day. They shed 10 days ago. This one eaten three has eaten three times. This one took its first meal yesterday." it. Some of them just want different things, man. That's how it's going to be.

>> Yeah. Well, well, I will say the one thing that I think me and you might disagree with because I've heard you say it before is you you believe in uh um what's the word I'm looking for? you you believe in like uh habits and I believe in non-habits because I my I h it might seem like I have a system but when it comes to like feeding and a lot of that stuff I have a general frame of where I do it but I don't have like I I need to do it on this day this day or this this day and I need to feed him this much this much and this much. It's a bit more sporadic than that. Mine's like if she doesn't look like she's that hungry then or she you know she doesn't look as ravenous then you know especially if she's been ravenous. If a female's been ravenous and then you can see her taper down a lot of times that's when she's starting to build like I don't even I don't need an ultrasound most of the time I can just kind of tell that all right either she's going to go or she can still reabsorb. I don't want people to think oh then she must be gravid. It's like, no, she's just building to the point where I I guess she just thinks or her body is just ready to possibly breed as long as the environment's right or she's not stressed out because I've had females get all the way up to nearly ovulation and then just reabsorb. So,

>> yeah.

>> So, I would say you're exactly right, but a lot of that's for for me rather than for the animals. So, I'll use a music analogy. When I first started playing guitar, I had to count. I had to think of the name of the chord. I had to pay attention to what I was strumming. I don't do any of that now. Like people are like, "What's like how do you remember all these chords?" And I'm like, "Well, I don't know. Actually, I don't. Like, I know what the song sounds like and I I could like if I sit there and play it, I'll tell you what chords it is, but off the top of my head, I'm just going to get playing." And I think we do the same when we start driving a car. We go like right now, I have to actually stop and think which pedal is gas and brake. and the right

>> the gas is on the right, the break is on the left.

>> Well, we don't think about it now. And I think as you and and some other people that have been really good friends and mentors to me, you

Know, that's the same thing they say. They're like, you know, did it long enough. I tried an ultrasound for a little while. I don't need it. I see what goes on. I know when to pair them. And I'm like, okay, but for somebody starting out, how do you describe that? How do you know? And they're like, I don't know.

And I It's the same with like guitar. Like it's it's that's what they call like a groove or like you the the feeling like you don't I don't think dancers really like when you're dance I don't dance but I'm guessing when people dance with somebody else and they know like all the you know whatever the moves are like I don't know that stuff but they know that they've done it enough and I think that uh you know my habits and my processes are as much for me to make sure that I'm doing the best that I can for the animal.

>> Uh there'll be things that I get better at though. Yeah. One thing I will caveat to say this or will say though to this is >> your method is better for customers than my method because if I tell people my method and they try to do that method and they only have especially if they're a pet keeper my fear is it's going to promote neglect because if you don't take care of something for that period of time what do you usually do? You you forget about it becomes like an object that you you know you put in the closet you forget. So, I wouldn't recommend that to just, you know, I have s obviously I have such a large collection that it's just you can you could stop feeding some of it for a long period of time, but you still have like babies I'll still be feeding because they still need to eat, you know, to keep up get them established and everything. So, because my babies will go through the same thing adults will go through just at a not quite maybe a few degrees difference as far as maybe not as cold as some of the other rooms. So, they they essentially will get a lot of the same treatment. I'm always I've been a strong proponent of treat your treat the baby similar to the adults so they get into your kind of rhythm or whatever your environment's you know like so you're not just throwing them you know go from the Goldilock you know environment to just boom you're just experiencing all these different uh >> right >> different things >> well and I think that there's I do try and convey that to people that there is um I I don't I stopped short at the word training them or personalities, but I think that they could be conditioned. So, like I was concerned when I moved to my new facility, I don't want to be there 9 at night feeding, which is usually when I feed because I like the the system of feeding at night and I feed right before I go to bed and then I go to bed.

>> Well, part of having a different facility is so that I'll be home at night, not working and have a nice evening with my family. So, getting them conditioned to the daytime, but u most of them did fine. And I've fed a couple times in the daytime now, but also the rodents are in the same facility. So like moving them in to where the rodents were, man, for like two weeks they were just on fire when I opened the tub. It was just, >> you know, but they've settled in and they they actually adapted again to your point, adapted very very well in there to the new place, you know.

>> Yeah. >> Well, and then like I said too, I I I I don't want to take like make it sound like we're we're we're totally different. Only thing that I don't have a regimen for is like uh my feeding can be weird. Everything else I try to keep on a regimen like night cycles uh you know cooling when I'm going to cool. I try not to bounce around a lot but I will I will change maybe fluctuation of food you know like uh I still have a few females that are building. So I'll still feed those females until they decide they want to or until they stop. But other than that, or if if they're degressing, like they're not building anymore, then I'll just stop feeding them because I go, "You have plenty of reserves for the following season." So, I'll just coach them till, you know, >> till I decide I want to bulk them back up again or if I need to bulk them back up again.

>> Well, and the funny flip side is is I don't mess with my temperatures, man. I'm 78 degrees ambient year round with the hot spot at, you know, 87, 88 year round. But I am playing with it some because I I think some of it um I think you got to do the best with what you got and sometimes you get new resources in a new place where I'm at right now in the in the new place um it doesn't have I've got a portable AC in there but if I let it be it'll get to 86 or so in the daytime and I'm like why don't I just turn the heat off altogether and it's only cooling down to you know 76 77 in the evening. I'm like, let me run it that way until the seasons change. Now, Minnesota winter, it's going to get harsh. I can't just do that year round.

>> But looking at that opportunity um in that one room, whereas my house would never get to 86 and you know, we'd be dying inside living in a 86 degree house, you know.

>> So, um so I've been I've been and it's not that I just do that willy-nilly. Like you do that and you see how the animals are doing or if they were eating last week, are they still eating now? as you know, are they are they changing behaviors drastically? And they're not. They were doing they're doing great. So, um I'm going to keep an eye on it. I think I've got another month to six weeks where I'll I'll be able to do that uh depending on the weather here in Minnesota.

>> Right. Right. >> There were some guys uh in Florida that I knew that basically they ran except for the coldest of the winter in Florida, which isn't that cold, they ran ambient all the time. and and a lot of it was that they discovered their animals didn't need it. And the second thing was the safety factor. They said, "Well, we live in Florida. It's warm enough. Let's take advantage of it rather than worrying about fires or burning the place down, you know."

>> Right. Right. I Yeah. The the ambient method was a method I was told about by it was Well, I heard it. I didn't hear directly from it. It was David Tracy Barker was the first one. And then uh um Oh, who was it? Um, Eve, goodness gracious, can't think of his name. It don't matter. But either way, those are the two guys I or people I heard the the whole uh ambient from originally. And then I talked to a buddy of mine, Ryan Young, who does ambient. And I was just It's you know, some of that stuff can be scary if you if you're doing something different than what you're used to. Like cuz when I moved, my snakes couldn't have seen or faced anything more different than what they were in. And then when I moved them to the building, >> you know, the the the original room they were in, they didn't have a light cycle. It was just whenever I was in the lights were on and whatever the the the the backfacing window that with woods and trees, whatever light would come through that, you know, that was the only light they got. And uh they all had hot spots because I wasn't keeping that the house room, you know, right ambient temperature wasn't well insulated. So they kept, you know, they had a huge transition from there and then they came over here had ambient and then they just they had a night cycle, a proper night cycle because that was another thing too was trying to get thermostats to drop the right time and stuff like that or and um then they got like I said they got big windows in each room so they get natural light coming in. So like it was a huge transition and then some animals depending on the species went from a rack to a cage. So a lot of lot of different a lot of changing for sure.

>> Um well we've picked apart a lot of ball python stuff which is great because that's up my alley and probably some of the audience alley but you do a ton of other stuff other than ball pythons and you've talked you've used the word pythons pretty specifically tonight. Do you stay within the python world primarily or do you have stuff outside of that too?

>> I have like two right now I work with 36 or 37 different species of python. I work from anywhere from the smallest python, the pygmy python all the way up to the big mainlands.

>> So the way my rooms are orchestrated is I'm in the building now is ball python room. The ball python room ended up being bigger than I thought it was going to be, but they already laid the pipes before I could have them change. anything. So, the ball python room ended up being big. So, that one also has like my blood pythons, my angolans, and then the few boa species I keep. Well, and then next to that is my miscellaneous room. That's all pretty much a lot of my other like python species. And then I got the nursery room being obviously the baby room. And then at the very, this is going to sound nuts to most people. the whole back wall. It's the biggest room by far is the big snake room. That is essentially hobby room because I I'm a hard I'm a big proponent of Eugene Pazette when he said, you know, big snake little market, little snake big market. And that's 100% true. I mean, you're not going to be breeding rock pythons, retix, and berms, you know, for a living. But I do like having them and I like having the diversity and then I I would like to breed them and stuff, too. It's not that you can't make some sort of financial gain from them, but it's certainly not like you could or wouldn't do with a ball python or any other smaller matter.

>> So, >> if um for people that don't know the name, they need to look up Eugene Bet. First, he's a legend. Second, he boils things down to the simplest form that anybody can understand and he's gonna tell you directly to your face and we're gonna move on. And that he's so good. He is Eugene has been uh uh wonderful to me. Um and I'm I'm thankful that while I was in Florida, I got to spend a fair amount of time with Eugene. He's fantastic.

>> Every time he talks to people, too, he talks to him like they're your he's your son or something. Or he talks to you like just a young lad. You'd be you'd be 40 or 50 years old and they'll talk to you like a child of not like in a degrading way, but like a fatherly like way almost like, you know,

>> and he's going to hold your shoulder while he does.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's going to do it in a respectful way. He's not going to be like what that kind of would sound like if someone talked to you in that way. But

>> but let me tell you, if he disagrees with you, he's going to >> dis Eugene. I'm sure you've heard stories about him back in the day. So there's a re he looks like what uh the the guy on Sopranos back in the day when his younger days uh uh the guy who passed away, what's his name? Draw a blank. But he he looks he he looks like mobster like material. So, you definitely didn't want to mess with him, especially back in his in his prime. So, yeah,

>> I had a I'll tell you real quick. He was actually uh my vision racks I bought used from, uh, you those are Eugene's old uh or some of them. He's probably had hundreds of them. But, uh the vision racks that I have are Eugene's old racks. And I had some musical equipment. I just come from a gig and uh we open the back of the the truck and it's got a you know a bed cover on it so it's waterproof and all that and he opens the truck and he turns and looks real slow and real diligent at me and he says he pointed to a case and he said if you brought that gun on my property without telling me and you'd been sitting here the whole time we're gonna have a problem. And I said it's a speaker tower. He goes okay that's what I want to hear. I said, "Okay."

>> And he was a serious like there was about to be a showdown right there.

>> Oh man. >> So anyway, I always remember that. But yeah, my uh my vision racks are from I bought them used from Eugene. So nice.

>> Anyhow, if uh he's he's done a lot of podcasts over the years and um he's full of full of knowledge and if anybody's done it, man, he's done it. That's for sure.

>> Oh yeah. Yeah. Worked with a lot of different stuff too, man. It's it's insane what he's worked with.

>> Yeah. >> We can only that we can only wish, especially being a python lover that I can only wish to work with one or get to see even for that matter.

>> Well, and he um you know, for all the fun anecdotes and stories, he he's a guy that puts his uh actions and his words where it counts. He he's a board member of US Arc Florida. He is driving uh animal rights in Florida, which we know is the bell weather for the rest of our industry and the nation. So um he's in that way he's to be supported and commended as well. So anyway there's our uh there's our tribute to Eugene Bet for just a moment there. But

>> but talk about that. You said uh small snake big market big snake small market. Where do you find um sort of the value sweet spot and the niches? Obviously I'm sure you pay the bills with with ball pythons, but you said there's 37 species that you work with. Um what what volume do you go to? I happen to see on Morph Market some of the the other ball pythons, you know, they're ranging in price from $400 to $600 that you have, which is nothing to sneeze at. You know, as well as I do, if you can sell a whole bunch of snakes at 4 to600 bucks, you make a living. But, um, it it seems like if it's a smaller market, you would want to have to be able to charge more, but it didn't seem like that. What do what do you find on those small markets or niche markets? niche markets. Uh they they don't fluctuate like the bulb usually. They can they definitely can.

>> I've seen, you know, some of the species when I was getting into a lot of it like real early on when I was getting into them, they were like I mean I'll give you an example like scrub pythons you used to be able to get wild caught ones for like a 100 to 250 bucks roughly. you know, even from reputable like importers like Dan Malleri, who's probably one of the most reputable importers, you know, top better. He's better than most breeders for that matter. And uh they were still, like I said, 250 maybe 300 bucks for depending on the species. But now those same snakes depending on the species anywhere from like a,000 to like $5,000. Like to me I think when you look at those kind of markets I don't see those sustainable. I know some people like they especially now because people get so scared of the ball python thing they'll start hopping around and they'll just they go oh my god I want to get this. I want to get this. I want to get this. But I think what they need to realize is you are the guys fueling those breeders. And unless you're willing to go out there and create a market of, you know, those upand cominging breeders, you're not going to have anyone to sell. You're just going to be competing with like hog noose, for instance. You'll be competing with JMG, the just of hognoses. Do you think you I mean, unless you promote yourself, right, and you know, advertise, right? And, you know, do whatever you need to do. I I'm finding out more and more YouTube seems like it's like an inevitable thing that I might need to do at some point. you know, the more you guys talk about that chat GTP stuff and I was just like uh I was ch I was fooling around on it and I was like man it seems like at the end of the day YouTube is like a need because like for instance what I do because most people particularly with ball pythons when they want to hop into a different species they want to hop into another I call it a tier. It's like a pyramid system. Ball pythons are number one. And then they'll want to hop into this tier underneath it, which could be like hog noses, boas, you know, animals with a bunch of a bunch of morph pallets and different mutations and stuff, you know, and then I'm kind of more I'll fiddle around within a different range typically species. I'm not when it comes to things that aren't ball pythons, I'm not really morph driven. I'll typically if I like the species, I'll get it. That's rule number one for me. If I if if I don't like the species, I'm not gonna get it because it has a morph. It doesn't matter, you know, because you know, with a lot of those species, you got to sell them more on like than just the future of this project, like where you can take this project, where you can go, you know, most of it, it's a white lip's a white lip. You know, a water python's a water python. You're not inventing the wheel, you're just creating more of them, >> you know. So I think when it comes to stuff like that is if you don't show passion about those species and know like interesting history about those animals sometime some of these animals have really cool histories of how they came into the country let alone and you know you're selling more on the you know yeah some of them are pretty crazy some people almost lost their lives for some of this stuff and people don't even realize it. So yeah, I mean the I find just when you because ball pythons are just it's it's pretty interesting how different that market is compared to like the miscellaneous stuff. I would say on average, well, I think most people I sell to when it comes to like the weird different stuff, depending on what it is, like like a white lip python for instance, most of the time people will get them and they would maybe like to breed them, but they don't really care if it does breed, >> right? >> You know, it's kind of one of those like I' I'd like to have it if maybe four or five years down the line if you know, if I still feel like trying to breed it, I might try to breed it. It's not like where it not all ball pythons, but it's like most ball python people, it's it's set to where like you need to breed this or I need to breed this, you know? Not always, though. Obviously, you do get a bunch of pet keepers and stuff. And I don't, like I said, throughout reptile shows I've been to, ball pythons have always, you know, had a strong foothold in the reptile hobby. You know, that you just can't beat them, man. Like I said, I've worked with majority of the python species and even when you're talking like the tiny pythons, I only get 18 inches to 20 or 36 inches, you know, the smaller genus.

>> And you know, most people hear that size and go that's the snake I want because it's tiny. But then they see it and they see how active and almost colubrid like it is, how quick it moves. Then, especially if they have a slight fear of it and it's for their kid, then they go, "Oh, I don't know if I want this. If it gets out of his hand, I'm not going to want to catch it." But then they see the ball python sitting lumped into a little lump of coal, you know, sitting in the display. And they say, "Well, what about this?" And I say, "It doesn't get much bigger, but it gets a lot thicker. You know, a heavier body snake, but it's slow moving. And you don't, you know, you don't have to worry about it darting off on you or anything. I mean, you could literally leave it on the floor and most of the time it'll probably be there if you walked off and came back.

>> Yeah. >> You know, for the most part.

>> So, >> uh I was going to I had something on the tip of my tongue. Oh, when you talk about uh how the let's just say the non ball python pythons are perceived, that's back to the core of of kind of pet and collector. And I realized that maybe a green tree python isn't a great pet the way that we think of pet, but as in owning one or two without breeding them, enjoying the animal rather than

>> uh okay, the animal's cool. It's a good pet and I can breed them and play with all these morphs. Um it sounds like the other pythons are far more at that sort of because to me, I think that most ball python breeders forget that's the core of almost any animal trade. either an animal trade is for food or clothing or it's for this pet collector. And we've created this other little space that I think sometimes we even take for granted or we forget or we get mad when we have to return to that core. But the core is that for a reason that that that's what's always there. Something else I want to I want to I'd like to throw into this conversation when particularly with this topic with especially with ball pythons, you know, like we were just talking about a lot of times it's sold is >> you you get a rack and you breed, you know, this rack of snake or you buy this rack and then you fill it up with these snakes and then you wait a while to raise it up. And I think the that narrative needs to shift a little bit because I'm noticing the more I if the people aren't getting out of the hobby, they're downsizing quite a bit. And the problem is, and I if you start downsizing, that means you do less chores. That means you're seeing your snakes a little bit less because you just don't have the volume you used to.

>> So you start not noticing things more. You just don't see them as often. Then it gets put on the back burner. Then I think it starts sizzling in your mind. Well then why am I doing this if I don't if I barely have a collection? What's the point of doing this or what? I I'm assuming that's what goes through people's head whenever they shrink their collection down to a certain point. But I think what needs to happen is there's this huge misconception that ball pythons can't do well in an enclosure. And that's just not true. You're just not setting the enclosure up correctly.

>> Right. But what I would do is and I this used to be a big enclosure uh idea from carpet python people of all people at least where I saw it and um uh dry maron like your eastern indigos I've seen people do it with them but it never picked up a ball pie even people who decide to keep a small like 10 to 15 collection of breeding animals or whatever and it it's a rack system that's sitting right underneath the cage with an entrance between the two. So the animal could access the cage but still get the tub for security.

>> Yes, it takes up a lot more space obviously and you can have a lot less animals. But my thing is if you're deciding to downsize, you need to compensate that. Well, I'm not going to see them as often because I'm not in there as often or as long. Well, how can I change that to where I at least get to see the beautiful works of arts that either I make or I buy? And I think that that narrative needs to change where it it only can be I can see babies like you keep babies or even like males like because you know you we cycle males out relatively quickly you know but if you keep a female back a little longer you know at least keep your females in a setup like that and keep your males in more of a rack system because either way your males are going to get to go in with the female and interact in that same enclosure. So either way, like I, you know, I wanted to throw that out there because I feel like I'm either people are getting out or people are downsizing. And I feel like the downsizing sometimes I I fear that it leads to just a sizzle or a burnout where they just, you know, they're just like, "Ah, it's less and less and less and then eventually they're just all right, I I barely get to see them, you know." Well, I'm just here to tell you, you can do something different. You just can't let the mindset that they can only be in Iraq be the idea of a ball python. You know

>> that's an um first it's really insightful like we always think about like practicality, resources, hours in the day and that's all real stuff. That is stuff that we have to think about.

>> But you're right and and I I like thinking about like the core beginnings of things. So the the pet or collector market being a core beginning, but the core beginning for us was thinking these animals are stinking cool. They're amazing.

>> And that's a great insight when you almost not only give yourself permission, but tell yourself the goal is to see it less because you need your other resources freed up. you're removing that core appreciation and that core awe or childlike uh you know uh again I use the word ah that um made it exciting for us in the first place. That that's a really insightful uh way to look at it.

>> I I just want to throw this out there too. I'm not saying like all these big breeders need to do this. I'm just saying if you're downsizing just something to consider. I'm not trying to tell people you need to do it like that but just think about it you know. So,

>> um, so I'll phrase the question a little bit different way. What are your thoughts on, uh, both interaction, enrichment? Uh, Jen asks about free roaming. Uh, what are your I know that, and this is a can of worms, but I know there's a spectrum of of perceptions when it comes to, you know, I know some people have, and I'm not even being patronizing towards them, some people have like play pens and playgrounds for their for their snakes. Myself. I It's my full-time job. I see those snakes and interact with them daily. So, like I do less of that, but I am cleaning. I'm interacting. I'm socializing with them. I'm in awe of them, looking and dreaming of the future. What's uh what's your what's your thoughts on that that sort of spectrum of perception for the animals?

>> Uh I I could tell you with like um they're they're very habit forming. So sometimes I think if you if you move them maybe they can form a habit if they do it for an extended or long period of time, but if they're in an enclosure and you take them out and you put them in something new, depending on the species, like I think males can handle it better because males tend to be more uh nomadic. They they tend to move around more, tend to, you know, be more than males. So

>> yeah. So like a female seems to be a bit more set. I mean, she'll have a range, but she's not gonna have nearly the range as a male would have. But I don't think it's necessarily a need, but it I think, you know, people forget that enrichment can be breeding. Enrich enrichment is breed. Breeding is enrichment. I kind of wonder, this is my thought, is if feeding can be more of an enrichment compared to like because I know some species can tell when they're killing something compared to when they just get something that's already dead.

>> I know >> when they feel the when they feel the pulse, they'll squeeze tighter and tighter. Well, if there's no pulse, you know, they're just squeezing nonsensically and eventually they'll just they'll say, "Oh, it's dead." Well, I think live feed like I have carpet pythons and all these uh aoreal cages. And this is going to sound so silly to say out loud, but I can almost play catch with them. They'll get into a routine where they'll they'll wait. They'll know when the sun starts getting low and the lights are about to go out. They'll come out and it's a routine. And I I'm willing to bet your ball python would do something similar if you had it in an enclosure. But it will sit out in the same spot all the time. The only time it doesn't is if it's gravid in shed or have already eaten or if maybe if it was ill, it probably would do something different. But those those four things would cause it to not do the same routine. But these carpets will sit out and hang in an ambush position like it would in the wild and I will just toss a rat in and it'll catch the rat midair. It's pretty entertaining. It's like playing fetch with your snake, you know, not bringing it back.

>> So, >> you use the word routine. I and you have a whole lot more experience than maybe even I ever will, but certainly than I do right now, but I'm an absolute believer in the routines of these animals. Uh there there's a time and like I say it's a little bit in a shuffle right now with me moving and stuff but uh in the daytime I can handle them like docile puppy dogs and at night it's the complete opposite because they've come to learn at night if I open the tub there's going to be food on the other side of that plastic wall because I don't handle them otherwise at night. And I tell new pet owners that I'm like get in a routine. They're going to train you. you're going to train them and you guys are going to be happy together in two weeks a month kind of deal and all these, you know, does it feed? How come it's hiding? This and that. That'll all be a distant memory because it's going to you guys are going to figure each other out, you know, and I I think that's a really important point as well.

>> One of the most painful bites I ever got was a ball python I was feeding at night and boy, she was she was building pretty big follicles, so I figured she wouldn't be hungry. Well, I was wrong. I popped the tub open. She was sitting in the front and the tub's like right around face level. So, it wasn't quite tall enough. I needed a stool. So, I just kind of peeked in. Soon as my lips hit the top of that tub, just bam, right on the tip of my lips. I go, I got French kiss that ball python. And the funny part is she ate right afterwards, too. It didn't me pulling her off didn't phase her at all. She just went soon as I just dumped the rat in, she went right for the rat instead.

>> Oh, that had to be a rough bite, though, too, man.

>> Oh, man. Good thing I had facial hair to kind of barricade some of those teeth and the marks on my lip, >> you know. Otherwise, it would have looked a whole lot worse, you know.

>> Uh on that, let me Man, the time is flying. Give me just a second. I got to pay a couple bills because uh there's a whole lot of people that support us here and support this industry. Also, guys, I don't know if you noticed, we're going adree. All uh Proper Prepper Royals live content is adree now for your uh viewing consumption pleasure. So, uh, just stick with me while, uh, you know, we got to take care of these people. Every time I try and point, I I would be a horrible weatherman. Check out Palm Street. They're, uh, supporting the industry and investing in it incredibly. We talked about the, uh, sort of the core of, uh, pet owners, collectors. Uh, go check it out. It's a great platform to sell and to buy on. If you haven't checked it out, uh, you should, and there's a link down below if you decide that you want to sell on there. Um, you do have to apply. you have to get vetted, but it it's a you know, it filling out the application takes about three or four minutes and then it's a couple quick questions and you send a picture of your uh husbandry and setup and anyway, they just want to get to know you, which if it's a little bit of a pain up front, but if you think about the good of the industry, that's a pretty solid move on their part. So, go check out Palm Street. Thanks to them for supporting the industry. Uh, Redline Shipping, that's who I ship with. I like customer service. services what I do. Uh I built my career in the service industry, so customer service is important to me and they have a great crew of reptile keepers to support you. Uh, you've heard us talk about temperatures, shipping temperatures are high this time of year. They have the uh equipment, the uh supplies that you're going to need and the knowledge and they'll work with you on each and every shipment if you want. They have a phone number on their website where you call and you get a human that has reptiles and cares about your reptiles and they care about you. So check out Redline Shipping. Use the promo code proper five. Five bucks off your next shipping label. Uh speaking of service is Charlie. Uh I don't know if you saw him in the chat earlier. He is from shedtesting.com. uh he is a keeper and a breeder himself but uh he's really innovated and as far as I'm concerned disrupted the um really the whole industry becoming a competition and an alternative and now in my opinion becoming the standard for DNA shed testing of ball pythons. If you haven't worked with Charlie uh there's over 40 genes that you can test for on his website. The latest ones that are uh active and live are uh lace monarch hurricane and monsoon. You can message Charlie directly on Instagram and there's some contact information on the website as well if you have any questions and he'll give you an update on where things are at on genes that might be developed. So, for example, uh if he and some colleagues are working on the rainbow gene, which I would love to have a test for, he says, "Hey, if you could send me some visual rainbow sheds, maybe we can get there sooner." Those sorts of conversations, Charlie's the guy to talk to. So, go check that out. Use the promo code proper 15 for 15% off of two orders on each order. You can order as many shed tests as you want, but you got to order them at at one time. So, um, go check that out. And, uh, you know, I can't promise the results other than they'll be accurate, but the results are between you and the snakes, but the service Charlie take care of you on it. Uh, Portuguese pythons is Danny and Renee Roachcha from Chino, California. I love what they do in the Ultrammell project. They have a whole lot more projects, but the Ultramls that they work and the dark jeans that they put into it like uh I have a lot of blackhead and redanthic um ultraml project stuff from them, but also the brightening stuff they're doing with the bell complex in ultramls. They're coming out like neon. But uh in ultraml they're working with puzzle clown and pi combinations uh as ultramls and then dark jeans like blackhead hetredanthic ghi and then other cool genes like uh sunset um puzzle projects and then true ghost projects as well. If you look at their morph market you'll see immediately uh you know again I used the word awe before just the beauty of the animals they produce is fantastic. Uh Charlie Ryan at Reagan Renee Royal Pythons. He is the current and defending 15 minutes of lame champion uh from uh uh Snakes and the Fat Man. Um Charlie is meticulous and you talk about systems and processes that is Charlie all day at Reagan Renee Royal Pythons. He is working projects like uh his Krypton project. I would say he's actually kind of at the forefront of the Krypton project. Really amazing animals that he's um creating within that project. also DG G-Stripe, Candy Pi, and Clowns. And he's one of the few people that I've handed over the uh captain's chair to when I go on vacation. The show goes on and often Charlie will come host for me. Uh check out Sund Dog Serpents. I've been doing business with Sarah and Josh uh personally, not just like, "Hey, I'll put your logo up." Uh Sarah and I have vended together on the Florida circuit several times. Uh we've been buying and selling snakes to and from each other for three or four years now. I'd have to look and and look back, but they've been trusted uh trusted colleagues and friends and resources along the way. And uh I think you should check out what they're doing. They work TSK Aanthic, TSK Clown Projects. They also work with Blood Pythons. And they I got to admit I'm a little jealous. I'm a super gravel guy, but their super asphalt stuff that they're producing is really killer. Go check that out. Uh, last but not least is Chris at BNS Reptilia. He is the uh original advertising partner for Proper Royals going all the way back to nearly the beginning and we're now business partners uh, as vendors at Tinley. He'll be there in October with me as he is every October. And Chris is BNS reptilia because he works with so many different uh species uh ball pythons, blood pythons, uh locality boas, uh colubrids of all shapes and sizes, as well as the pitophus colubrids, the bullsnakes, and the pine snakes. He will have those available. Obviously, limited supply for some of the reasons that u William and I are speaking of tonight, the market, the demand, the resources. If you're interested in any of those um uh pituous before Tinley, get in touch with Chris. He'll make sure you have the paperwork you need. He'll have the permits all totally legal on the up and up there in Illinois. So, go check him out. He's also the regional distributor for the Chipper and he works nationally to help other people set up their own uh regions of the chipper. So, you can get in touch with him if you're interested in any of that. Thank you to the audience. Thanks to these uh show sponsors. They are people that support our industry and like I say they bring proper royals live to you uh ad free from now on uh which has been getting really good uh response from everybody. So thank you very much. Little bit of housekeeping. I stumbled over something I couldn't remember earlier and we were talking about keeping uh walls dry on top of sheetrock. That's FRP. Thanks to Keith at Creative Genetics for coming through on that. It is FRP is what it is. Everything's got three letters these days. You got >> Right. Right. Right. >> TJW. I mean, all these people, they just want to jam three letters together.

>> Can I give can I give a shout out to one of one of your sponsors, uh, Charlie? So, I I had a group of sheds I was sending out. Well, a few of them was a special, but when I got I got a crystal female from Ben Renick years ago, and I didn't really care about the line because a special was a special to me at the time. So, I didn't care if it was no co or baker line or whatnot. Well, Ben passes away. I needed to know because I didn't realize they were testing different the banker and the noco line. And I had no idea. And then Dave when he took over his collection, he had no idea. And I couldn't I tried to talk to Marshall and stuff, asked to see if he remembers if Ben ever picked anything up. He had no idea. And I was like, "Oh, this is going to be a crapshoot. I hope I'm not wasting money." So I was like, "Here, do you think you could test these?" And he uh Charlie had the Baker line. Well, they came out negative and I I told him I go I was like, "Man, I I something I go they just look different. They can't, you know, cuz I know I know the parents the the one was like a special head trie and another one was a a leopard or a special leopard and stuff that I made from crystals. So, I knew they were specials."

>> Yeah. >> So, and Charlie threw this out there. Didn't even cross my mind. He goes, "You know what? uh I can have him sent over to the RGI. He tests no coline. And I to me I was like really? I mean I I figured he' just been like well they just didn't prove out and he sent them over. I compensated him for it and I found out that all three of them proved out to be no coline special. So huge respect for Charlie for that. You know in my mind I just figured that and I wouldn't have had no ill feelings towards that but I just I was just like oh I I didn't even think that would be a thing. So I mad respect and he earned like loyalty from me for sure for that. So

>> it's amazing what happens when you just put the customer first, isn't it? Like it it like look at that. What a great example that was. And um so many people don't think that. I remember uh uh I was vending with uh Dale at Constricted Reptiles one time and I saw Steve Casino uh from Steve's Morphs walk a buyer over and I think it was actually to George MD's table. George was was vending in that group of tables as well. And I don't want to get specific on people's businesses, but let's just say that guy was a whale of a buyer. And Steve walked him over because that guy wanted something specific that he knew that Steve knew George had. And instead of going, "Well, I don't know." Or trying to talk him into something else or figure out a way to take that customer's money, he just said, "Here's your guy and he's the best in the room at this stuff." You know, and that kind of stuff sticks with me. And to your point, here we are talking about Charlie because he did the right thing for a customer and getting all sorts of free ad space right now, right? I mean, it's it's fantastic, man.

>> Oh, yeah. Great guy.

>> Yeah. Um I So, full disclosure, everybody, I uh a lot of times like I'll just run topics by um the guests. Uh I knew that um this was an interesting topic, but I also knew it was a sensitive topic. And if I don't want to get into the the details and and the unfortunate drama that unfolded and all of that, I'm not that's not what I'm here for. But uh uh if you don't know the story of of Ben Renick, um you should Google it and you can find out some of all the other stuff. But uh uh William, you and correct me where I'm wrong here. You had the opportunity to work for Ben and to kind of be mentored for him. I think you mentioned in in one of your bios that uh maybe you worked for snakes and rats and a little bit of mentorship and experience from him. um for for people like me that that I'll be the first to admit, you know, COVID came around, I got a hobby and boom, now here I am five years later kind of thing. Uh I didn't know Ben. I wasn't um I wasn't privy to his place and stature in the industry um before I came around. I've learned in retrospect and got to meet some amazing people that were, you know, the forefathers of of what I've come to enjoy.

But tell us a little bit about your time with, uh, with Ben, what you learned. You talk glowingly about him. You light up when you talk about him. So, uh, what, what was some of your experience? How'd you come to work for him? And, uh, what do you like the old, like, almost like apprentice model of learning things? What do you, what do you think of that? Is that still something that people should strive for today?

Oh, yeah. I think especially in certain situations, especially with, you know, we all have our days. We're all going to have those customers that are just like, uh, they're, I don't want to say annoying, but they keep asking questions. They keep, you know, they keep bugging you. They keep wanting. But then I, I can't help but go, what would Ben do in this situation? And then I go, it's like he would have sucked it up and he would have helped the, you know, individual regardless of, you know, what he had was doing at the time or if it was late at night or, you know, within reason, he would do what he can for the customer. And I try to hold that true and, you know, ex- little, little side thing, but that's especially with the miscellaneous stuff, you know, ball python breeding. There's a lot of great people in it. I mean, a lot of good businessmen, a lot of. But when you start talking about the miscellaneous stuff, the niche markets like that, especially what I'm in, you know, you might deal with a lot of, you know, just terrible people or horrible people to deal with. And, you know, I, I like this quote from Ralph Davis. He said, "I like buying from people who help me sleep better at night." And I c, you know, I try, you know, some of the species I have are so stinking rare that you had to get them from that butthole in the industry, otherwise you wouldn't get them. Right.

And I just use that as fuel to say, you know, when I eventually breed this stuff, I hope to be, you know, that, you know, customer or not customer, that seller that helps them through the process of whatever it is they need to know about the species, rather it's just keeping breeding or whatever aspect of it it is. But back on the Ben thing, sorry, I just had to, just random.

No, it's okay. And I think also, like, it's all a matter of perspective. I find that as such opportunity. I would see that in restaurants. We all hear the stereotypes of restaurants and how people behave in restaurants and and the, the, you know, the stereotypes of working there. And I'm like, it's such an easy bar to exceed and make a difference in. And that was what really drove me in my career a lot. And I do see that. You're right. There are, there are, um, there are just horrible garbage people in our industry. And I hate to put it that way, but they are. But it gives me inspiration to go, it could be a brighter spot than that for a whole lot of people. And it's just nothing but opportunity, you know?

Right. Yeah. I'd like to, if we have time, I'd like to hit on that, but I'll get back to the Ben thing because I'll go on a whole tangent about that if you could remind me of that segment later. But so with Ben, Ben was the biggest name in Missouri. He, I mean, just even in the US, he was just such a large name to begin with, but like in Missouri, you know, at shows, everyone knew Ben. Everyone talked to Ben. He was the guy, you know. So, um, I eventually ended up talk or going up to talk to him and I think at the time, it was just so happened he was looking to get some more help at his facility.

Was that, was that there in Missouri?

Yep. Missouri. Yeah. He only lived like, at the time, it was like 25 minutes away or so from me. So, it wasn't even that far of a drive. He lived out in, you know, the middle of nowhere. So, you really had to, you really had to look up, you know, GPS wasn't going to help you find where he was. He's not-

Yeah, it probably didn't exist at that time.

No. Uh, he first, he invited me out to check out his facility. I went out. I was, this, this was the, the only time I saw a facility or not, well, the only time I've seen facilities or any kind of reptile facility was Brian Barek. A lot of us YouTuber kids at the time, we saw that and we were like, "Oh my god, that'd be so cool to have or do or do it for a living." But then it's, you know, once the YouTube videos off, you know, you can kind of forget it or it's a phase or something. But to be able to actually see that kind of stuff in person or see, he wasn't as nearly as big as Barek by no means, but I mean, just to see someone who was doing it, right? Doing it for a living, living a living the dream, you know, the reptile dream. A lot of us would want to have. So, you know, I went out there the, I think I went out there once, came back, and then I went out there a second time and then that's when I was like, uh, yeah, man. If you need help, I'll come over and do, I'll do it for free. You know, I wasn't asking for anything. And that's what he eventually said, "Oh, I'll pay you in snakes at least, you know, credit for snakes." I said, "Oh, cool. That, I, I was like, that's perfect." I go, I didn't even know that was a thing. I was willing to come out here to scrape tubs for just the sheer knowledge and just to, you know, get my foot in, I guess you'd say, into the door of like how breeding or how a larger scale breeder works, you know?

Right. So, I went in there. I was, man, I was doing all kinds of stuff. I was, uh, I cleaned the adult ball pythons for a little while. And then right when Ben would start getting heavy and breeding, he kind of wanted to take more control of that because he wanted more hand. He didn't ultrasound stuff. He did it all by hands and visuals. So, uh, he, he would want to clean them. So, he had eyes and hands on those animals. So, I essentially moved to the baby section. Well, that was when the baby section was starting to get low. Then, I came, became a tub washer. You know, I was working in that giant stainless steel sink he had in his-

It was a big sink. I don't know if it was quite as big as your sink, but it was, it was decently sized sink, you know. So, I-

I hope it was bigger than mine. Mine, mine's good, but I mean, I don't-

I don't know if it was quite as big as yours. At least from legend, how legend goes, you know, it's, it's starting to form its own like mythical aura around-

that people are going to take like glamour shots with the sink when they, knowing reptile people that will, that will-

they will do that. Yeah. But, uh, but then, um, I was doing the tubs for a while and then, um, uh, Ben had another employee took care of all his like, uh, big snakes and a few miscellaneous because he had a two or a basement to the facility and his, uh, top floor was the ball pythons and the hatchlings and the basement was his was retics and anacondas and, um, a lot, some of the miscellaneous stuff. So, uh, the original employee ended up having stuff happen, you know, life situation happened, so he ended up having to leave. Well, I mean, those, I mean, big snakes take up a lot of time. He-

Oh, geez. So, Ben probably had, if I had to guess, anywhere from a thousand to 1,500 adult ball pythons upstairs.

He would get that all done within a week.

Wow. I would, it would take me a day and a half just to do 24 retics, six anacondas, and a few other miscellaneous things. Maybe five or 10 other miscellaneous species of more moderate medium size, but still, you know, not the, not the greatest to get out and have to, you know, dodge and weave and bites here and there.

Yeah.

By, by yourself or with somebody else, too?

Well, Ben was upstairs, so, you know, I do my best to scream if something happened. No, but as far as like the handling, you're, you're basically doing, you were doing it yourself.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Doing it myself. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. So, then I moved downstairs and I ended up working with all the big constrictors for a while. But, you know, when you work with a big, any kind of big breeder, I'm sure, I'm sure Chase even being an employee or summer or, you know, insert whatever big breeder it is. I bet we called it customer stories of the day or the week. You know, in my case, it'd be a week. And you would hear like some outlandish customer stories. Like, I-

I think one of the best ones I still heard to this day was some guy who called Ben up after receiving his snakes, I think two days or three days later, saying the snakes died. And he said, "How'd you have them set up?" They had them in six-quart little latch tubs. These are like baby ball pythons. Six-quart tubs with water as a substrate on a space heater. So he boiled the ball pythons essentially.

Oh my god.

A slow, like a, a slow boil, too. Yeah. And I'm just like-

I'm like, so my god. I was just like, yeah. So, you, you heard all kinds of great stories, you know, or tragic stories too, in that case. But-

Yeah.

Yeah. And, um, and then I get to see the ins and outs and how, you know, because at the, I think Ben was a businessman. He wasn't so much, he, he was definitely a reptile guy. To be, I think when you get to that size, you had to be some sort of reptile guy. But I didn't really get a lot of my, like, intricate interest in like pythons in particular from Ben. That happened later on. But like with Ben, I got to learn more of the ins and outs of the business, how it worked, how what his plans were, you know, because his plan, you know, I see, I've seen the ball pythons just go through this phase and I'll kind of break it down to where like from working with Ben kind of, I don't want to, it kind of gave me a perspective of where I think I can see the ball python market kind of going and potentially, I'm not saying it will or anything that won't or will happen or something, but, you know, when the in the early 2000s, it was about new morphs coming in and it was about breeding those new morphs. Well, eventually those morphs slowed down and then it became combining these morphs. It's like what Kevin was doing with bumblebees and stuff like that. And then that's what skyrocketed as far as an expensive animal. Well, then eventually that started petering out and then eventually it was any combo. You know, it didn't matter. It could be a brown brown and black snake. Didn't look much different than normal. If it was a new combo, it was $10,000. It didn't matter what it was. And, um, then it changed into just adding as many incomplete dominant traits as possible, you know, and recessives took a backseat to it. And eventually Justin, and then Justin created this wave around the recessives again. And then you start seeing the shift towards recessives. Then it was just recessives. And then it became double recessives, triple recessives. And then you start seeing, well, now we're going the same route with incomplete dominance. We're just doing it with recessives now, right? Where just add as many recessives. They, we don't even care if it looks good. If it has, you know, is a quad or something and it looks like poo, it's worth, you know, 20 or $50,000, whatever make-believe number it is. And then you're starting to see that peter a little bit. Not, it's, it probably, I think it depends on the, the double recessives. And now I'm start, now I'm seeing people wanting to add more incomplete dominance or treat the incomplete dominance like recessives.

Right. I don't see the industry changing in a way where it'll-

it's gonna, well, I'm not say it's going to, at some point it will. I, when it will be, I don't know, but I think it'll start falling into the same niche that every python or not just pythons, every snake or any reptile, even dogs, any kind of animal breeding, like pet breeding in particular, goes and it turns into more of a selective breeding aspect of things where we, we're combining these traits. We're combining these traits. Nothing that mind-blowing is happening and I think it's going to peter out again. And I think what's going to happen is it's going to just go through a low and then it's going to be that Justin, whoever sitting in the wing working on something and then he reveals, say, like a, you know, because this is a new concept for, I saw how people reacted to the desert ghost situation when you say polygenetic, which is a part of the Mendelian genetic, you know, that group of, you know, of those, uh, um, whatever the word is, part of that, uh, group. And, um, you said polygenetics. People lost their mind. They couldn't even, I, I've never seen a just people lose their mind over something like that before. Even though nothing essentially changed, people just lost their mind because you just made something different. But I think, I think the problem is, and I was, I remember talking to Jessica about this too, is it's a, it's not going to be a thing until someone pro makes it a proven concept, like kind of Justin did with the recessives. If you can make lime-bred traits cool, however that is to you and however, you know, if you can and do well with that as far as a, needs to be pretty animals and then b, it needs to be a market. If you're not creating a market for it, then it doesn't matter how neat it looks. It's just going to be another neat snake in the ether that gets lost, you know, until somebody else picks up the mantle and decides to make this the big thing. So, in my mind, I know I'm, I'm loading a bunch of stuff at you, throwing a bunch of random stuff, but that, that's essentially working with Ben kind of gave me this perspective of, I see this evolution happened in so many different species, but no species has mutations like ball pythons. So they dropped off quick and then you saw that select and then it kind of the species kind of petered out and dipped down and then you kind of got stuck with just the hardcore people who genuinely like that stuff or that species and then they were willing to work through the, you know, the ashes essentially and just create something new and different. So I think what it does, it, you know, it's just going to fluctuate like that until, like I said, someone makes it a, a proven concept. You know?

Well, I do think that you're onto something. And I think also, um, we're, and, and sort of society is this way. Like, we're doing things faster and better and neater and, and, and just like, we're just, we're just, we're running at paces we've never seen before. And shed testing is part of that, which is so cool because we can reach our goals faster and we're creating things faster and there's more people that have-

answer questions too. It answers questions like those. Well, because I remember working for Ben. Another thing is you'd have all these genes and you're just kind of, oh, I think it has this. I think it has that. You know, you can, for the most part, you can figure out what's all in that animal.

Yeah. And you don't need a thousand females to do that anymore. You can, you can do testing. But, uh, I had an interesting conversation with somebody, and I've brought this up before, and it's, it's usually good food for thought. But, you know, again, one of the core things to me is just how cool a snake can look. And the cooler it looks, the better, like, the more intrinsic value it's going to have. And like, I kind of, similar to what you're saying, I envision a day where what if there's not just 99 genes written on the label and a price. What if it's just a snake and somebody's like, "Holy smokes, that's the coolest thing I've ever seen." All right, let's talk about price. What's it worth to you? And like, you get down to what that intrinsic value is versus now because so many of us are breeders and there is that bit of multi-level marketing so to speak to what we do. Yes, the genetics are very important. You have to know what you're selling. So, in some ways, that's a pipe dream. But at its core, man, one of the guys that, uh, vends on a similar circuit you and I do, uh, Tim Simon, he had a snake and I was at that very first, uh, uh, Castle Rock Denver show, ARP show. I was walking by. I had, I didn't even have a way to get this snake home other than shipping it. I walked by his booth and I stopped and I said, "What is that?" He's like, "I got to find out." And I was like, "Hang on. Is it a male or a female?" He goes, "It's male." I said, "Is that a big pile of, of, uh, recessives or non-recessives?" He's like, "No, there's actually no recessives in there." I said, "It's sold. You don't even have to tell me what it is. Whatever that is, I can add so much more to it." And it was a, Leopard McKenzie Freeway possible black. I still don't know everything that's in it. And I'm just blown away by how cool it looks. And that was like one of those aha moments where I was like, "Okay, stop screwing around with all these words, Adam. Like, make something that looks amazing is is where it needs to be."

Yeah. Because right now, I think we're in that, this is another great quote from some of my mentors, Nick Mutton and Ryan Young would say, is right now we're in that, it's cool because it's expensive, not expensive because it's cool.

I think, I think we're definitely going to trend that. Obviously, I, I can't see us not going that way. The way I can tell we're not there yet is the fact that people still think candies are not cool.

Right?

I think just sheer fact that the fact that people don't think candies are cool. I, to me, is like, well, then I think we're just backwards right now. I'm not saying the Ultram and all that's not cool, but why isn't candy? I mean, I'm not saying it has to be high level, but why isn't it just because it's a league with albino? Well, then don't put it to albino. Right? It's just that simple. And it's, I don't know, but I-

that's where I think we're still going to that transition where it's, you know, we're not quite there yet. But yeah, I definitely agree with you.

It's interesting because I've seen it and I didn't know that they were related. I had no idea, but I've seen it with guitars. You know, certain brands and lines and specs, they get, oh, this certain wood that we're sourcing that nobody knows the difference of. It's under three coats of paint and polyurethane and there, you know, does it sound good when it's plugged in and can somebody play it? That's what it should come down to. Same thing with wine, man. The big wine boom, I made a lot of money selling and and I mean, both professionally and above board, but underground, too. There was there was a wine market that for a long time at best was gray market, but I was shipping high-end wines to China for for ridiculous amounts of money, man. And it was the same thing. It was just one label got a 100 degree or 100 point rating one time. I mean, people were making counterfeit wines. They were getting so much money, you know? It's like, but it's, it's the same thing. And what you just said is exactly it. It's cool because it's expensive, not the other way around. And when people go and put a blindfold on or they drink a wine without knowing the label and you just ask them, is it good or is it not? Well, then then let's talk about what the value is, man. So, I think it's important to-

to think of things that way. Um, you, uh, and we are well into overtime, so I'm going to, uh, I'm going to wrap up one part here and then you said, let's finish off with one other thing. So, I'm going to, I'm going to do that. I want to say, uh, thanks for sharing the thoughts on Ben. Audience, if anybody doesn't know, uh, there was, um, at the very least, an untimely and a very, uh, horrific, unfortunate ending. Like I say, you can look into that yourself. I don't think that that's how anybody wants to be remembered. And obviously, uh, Ben was special to a lot of people. So, I'm happy we got to talk about him in that light tonight. So, thank you for doing that, William. I, I very, very much appreciate that, especially as somebody that was clearly close and influential and mentor to you.

Dude, I, I, this is going to sound bad, but I lost a relationship over it because I was taking vacation time from my day job to go hang out with him and the girl, the ex-girlfriend at the time was, she was jealous, like, why are you hanging out with him so much and not taking off for whenever we? And I was just like, because this is what I want to do. This is, you know, and as this is going to, I don't mean this in like, I guess the one light that came from at least to me for me that with all the tragedy, tragedy that happened behind that is it made me go for, like, believe in myself to do this, you know? Because before I was just fine with just supporting Ben's dream essentially, you know, you breed and do and keep stuff is fun, you know, for fun, not really having any aspirations to do anything or, you know, be bigger than I was or anything like that. I was fine being in the shadows, but then when he passed on, there was like this void in me, not that I felt like was in the hobby, but me that I was like, well, what do I do now? You know? Because I was working for him for like four years or so. And I was just, you know, it was just one of those like, man, I just, what do I do now? Because I worked with him all the way up to his death. So I, and I had no like plan to like leave at any time soon, you know, unless he moved or something. But yeah, I didn't, I didn't have plans for that. But then whenever it did happen, it would just made me look deeper in my collection and almost try to find more purpose in what I'm doing, you know. Um, yeah, I just say thank you. I can't say better. I can't, uh, I can't say it better than what you have. I have several thoughts, but, but to be honest, those are, they're insignificant.

Yeah, I'm glad that there was, I won't say any silver lining. There's no benefit to that sort of thing, but not at all.

That in that darkness that you could find that that light and that drive and be inspired to look at yourself. That had to be a direct reflection of Ben, uh, uh, looking at yourself as to what he inspired.

Yeah. Yeah. Because then after a while, too, you do inevitably, you do think of the industry and you go like, you know, I knew a lot of people looked up to Ben and it's just like, how can I be not Ben, but represent Ben's name? Well, you know, when I tell people I used to work for Ben, they go like, well, that makes sense. Or, you know, you're a good, uh, you know, steward from Ben or something like that or something like, I don't know, somewhere I reflected well upon Ben, you know.

Yeah. Well, thank you for sharing, man. I appreciate it. Uh, take us home in five minutes. Uh, something that sparked a nerve earlier when we were sort of talking about deplorable people in the, uh, in the industry and sort of the opportunity to improve the industry. So, there, there's it sucks that they're there, but if that's the bar, uh, it's a lot of opportunity for good people.

All right, man. And I'm going to try to bust this down into like a real, and this is kind of going to lead to the Ben thing when I said I was looking for, what do I think not just me, but the hobby in general can do and can we be bigger than what we are? And it's not going to be just one person. It's going to be all of us have to try to do this or all of us be stewards of this hobby, not just one person, you know, manning the ship or anything. So, I see how I could bust this out real quick. I think herpetoculture can be so much more than us keeping a snake in the tank. I think all of us and every animal you have in those racks, I have in these rooms are essentially ambassadors of those species.

What do I mean by that? Is zoos can only do so much. I, I love zoos. Matter of fact, I'm going to try to go to the zoo this weekend. But zoos serve a great purpose, but they can't be the voice for the little guys. Nobody cares about a, no one probably cared about a ball python till Peter Cole pulled out a pi ball python. You know, nobody, you, no one knew what a ball python was probably at the time. That's unless you were just in a herpeticulture, you know, field in in general. But I think us as stewards of the hobby, we can touch more people than a zookeeper can touch as far as a stranger. And I, I say this as someone who has a mom that was deathly afraid of snakes and would never let me have a snake. Now she has two racks and probably 15, 20, third, maybe close to $30,000 of snakes and these mom does.

Yeah. I mean, she doesn't take care of them. I take care of them and I just give her the money for, you know, offspring and stuff. But-

Oh, cool.

See, it, it created-

some sort of value, you know, to like, and I, I hate to put money on it, but even just the fact her son had an interest in it, it propelled her to maybe put down the snakes are just these big scary monsters that should just be obliterated from the world, you know. And I think us, as, because you're going to be able to touch people that I can't touch. I can touch people that you can't touch. Your customer can touch someone. And it's, you could see how we can just, if we all work together, whether you're a pet keeper or a breeder, you know, I think all of us have the same value when it comes to this and I would just like to see us work towards, you know, rather than zoos and biologists, you know, field workers in the field of herpeticulture looking down upon us reptile keepers, we prove to them that without us, we, we wouldn't be touching a fraction of the, and I think we have, even with unintentionally, I think unintentionally we have touched millions of people, you know, you know, just for sheer fact of how much herpeticulture has grown, herpeticulture itself has grown, you know. So, and that's why with back to like the people being, you know, horrible people, it just use that as fuel to be a better person to try to make this hobby better because like I said, I think this hobby can do so much more than just keeping a snake in the box. And I think people need to look at that animal and know you have a piece of West African history. And the way that snake impacted West African culture is some of the coolest thing in any python's history, not just ball pythons, but just pythons in general, you know, or your, the snake in general is just a unique snake. Like rough rough scale pythons, the only keeled python in the g in the whole python, you know, group and all the python groups. You know, ball pythons, the only ball py, the only python that defensively balls up. That sounds mundane to us now, but no other python does it. That's a cool thing they do. And I, I've personally seen ball pythons suck, like juveniles and babies suck into a ball so fast, it's on par with like an armadillo. Like I've seen them like you, sucking to a ball relatively quick. And I guess the moral of the story is, I, I want to do more than just be a guy who breeds and sells and do this. I want to try to see if we can propel this industry to do more for whether it's the animals we love in the wild or the country, the people who are from those parts of the world, you know, not just keep it in the US, but globally help, you know, whether it's conservation groups and all this, you know, anything, you know, that involves the animals we work with, I think it would be beneficial for us to support them across the pond, you know, in their native land and do more for that stuff that a lot of us are grateful to be making a living and some of us a great living off of this.

Right. And to just not contribute anything to the animals that our, that the animals that we have came, you know, ripped from the ground. Now, I hate to make this sound so barbaric, but, you know, them getting pulled from the wild or smuggled from Australia, you know, or whatever country it is, you know, just, I think people lose perspective of, you know, morph A, morph B makes morph C, and that's all we care about. But there's just so much to this industry that I think we should take a step back and be like, "Wow, the fact that I have Python regius, you know, Borellius floycheni or, you know, Malayopython reticulatus, all these different species, and I'm able to work with them and in the same area is just awesome because most, most of us will never get to see some of these species that we love in the wild."

Correct. So I think it's just, it helps us connect more to those animals from their native land. Yeah.

You know, give us a piece of that, you know, West African feeling or, you know, if it's South Africa or South America, even US, you know, some parts of the US, some of us may not be able to visit. You know, if you work with California king snakes or, you know, Florida corn snakes or something like that, you know, there's, it can, it can, it doesn't just have to be pythons or ball pythons, but I just think this hobby can do so much and I have so much faith in it just from just the little sample size I've seen and how much we've been able to change. If we actually focused on this and made it something that we prioritize, I think we can, I mean, we can change, I think a lot of people's perspective on snakes more than what we're doing now, even in my opinion.

I, I'm certain we can and I, I've said it before as a loose analogy. Uh, and, and I'm not advocating one thing or another here. I'm just saying as a true statement of fact. If we look at where the marijuana industry was 30 years ago and it was sort of stereotypes of Cheech and Chong and suggest-

Right.

And, you know, the, the deadhead stereotype, which I'm, I'm totally down with the Grateful Dead. I'm cool, big fan of Jerry. Uh, anyway, what I'm saying is from a business, society standpoint, from that perspective, in my lifetime, and I'm not the particularly old man to where it's seen now and appreciated and bringing value to communities. Again, whether people use it or not, it's taxed and regulated the right way. It does great things. And that has always stuck in my mind as a, as a really great model for what I think, uh, the reptile industry probably has to do. And it probably means that, um, you know, we got to tidy up our, our outward appearance and some people, we need to tidy up altogether and so, you know, just putting some more effort into it.

And I, another thing is too, like, uh, taking time out, you know, uh, you know, like most people go out and help charities and stuff like that. Maybe go out and connect with your local fish and wildlife and if they have like hellbender research or some sort of, uh, some something they have to do where it's like data where they're having to figure, you know, search for certain animals. If you volunteer your time to help, you kind of set that precedent that we're more than just keeping these snakes in a box. We're, we really want these animals to thrive in the wild too, you know, even in your own backyard, not even just say if you do work with ball pythons that you have to go to Africa to do this. If you just contribute what you can in your own backyard, I think that is tremendous in itself. You know, most people look past that and not think anything of it because they're, they're thinking of bigger things like going to Africa, going to Australia to do stuff like that or, you know, starts with your backyard essentially.

Well, and you got to come back because we could do a whole show on this and maybe we should do a whole show on this, but, um, part of the challenge is how big the societal resistance is. I'm going through that feeling right now where I go, "All right, I've invested a huge amount of money, big portion of my life savings in this new facility in a small town and I'm freaked out. Are people gonna love it or are they gonna hate it?" And it's a small enough town that if somebody wanted to bring a motion to the town council, I could be in real trouble. And you know what I mean? And so there's that balance, too. But, your, your passion and your excitement and your infectiousness is exactly right. And I have to say, I don't want to leave with that thought. I have to say, uh, the guy that, uh, he's great. He's does a lot of business in town, but he, he mows my lawn, uh, clears the snow, has, uh, all sorts of different businesses around town. Um, I showed him at the, uh, at the facility. He called his wife who's terrified of snakes and says, "You got to come see this. Bring our daughter." And their daughter was just blown away by, amazing, you said it, a candy adult female. Uh, and she ends up holding the snake. And even the mom is like, "You know what? I don't want one, but those things are pretty cool." And it was like, just a small victory in this little, little small town, you know? It was a really cool, uh, thing. So, I think that you're, I think that you're more than onto something. I think you're exactly right is what I think.

So, uh, William, I gotta, I gotta pull the plug, man. I got to go be a dad and a husband and hang this up. I make a promise to people. There's 90 minutes. We're at two hours, but you got to come back. We got to do this again. Uh, the good ones always go along and there's never, there's not been a bit of dead air. So, we, we did a good thing tonight, I'm sure. So, um, thank you so, so much for being here. I appreciate it, man.

And, like I said, with you, I've been a longtime listener and I think you're a great steward to this, the reptile community as a whole, but even the podcast community, I think you're doing a lot of great work. So, I definitely want to commend you for that.

Well, thank you. And it means a lot coming from you. Um, any, like I say, we could do, we could do a show on a on a lot of that stuff, but I forget. It's really weird. There's a little camera right there and there's one little, this little blue chair from IKEA that I do the show in. And, uh, and I forget sometimes that, you know, that there is reach and there is people that hear it and that that, um, that it does, um, I don't know if it makes a difference, but it strikes a chord and provides some entertainment and, and hopefully a hell of a lot of education with people like you coming on. So, thanks, uh, thank you very much and I, um, thank you for the compliment, I'll say. So, um, come back sometime soon, huh?

Yeah. Anytime. I'm, I'm always available. I try to always make time for reptile people, man.

All right. Well, I appreciate it. Audience, uh, couldn't do it without you. Otherwise, it's just be, uh, you know, I could call just somebody on the phone. So, thank you very, very much. I'll be back, um, uh, next Tuesday night, 8:00 p.m. Uh, Thursday morning, Chris Eaton is sitting in for Joe on Proper Cup of Joe. We got our big announcement on our new project that we're working on together. Be there, uh, 7:30 Eastern. Grab a cup of coffee and hang out. I will see you guys soon. William, thanks so much. Stick around for just a second. Good night, everybody.

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