Transcription
[Music] Thank you for joining us this evening. Coming up in just a few moments, you'll be hearing an interview with Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family with convicted murderer Ted Bundy. It was to be the final interview Ted Bundy gave. Following that, we have some guests in the studio this evening who will talk with us about pornography. What can be done? What are its effects? And what, uh, each person can do in their own community. So, stay with us.
Ted, it is, uh, about 2:30 in the afternoon. Uh, you are scheduled to be executed tomorrow morning at 7:00 if you don't receive another stay. What is going through your mind? What thoughts have you had in these last few days?
Well, I won't kid you to say that it's something that I feel that I control of or something that I've come to terms with, because I haven't. It's a moment-by-moment thing. Sometimes I feel very tranquil, and other times I don't feel tranquil at all. Um, what's going through my mind right now is to use the minutes and hours that I have left as fruitfully as possible and see what happens. Uh, it helps to, to live in the moment, in the, in the essence that we use it productively. So, I'm right now, I'm feeling calm, and in large part because I'm here with you.
For the record, you are guilty of killing many women and girls.
Yes, that's true.
Ted, how did it happen? Take me back. What are the antecedents of the behavior that we've seen so much grief, so much sorrow, so much pain for so many people? Where did it start? How did this moment come about?
That's the question of the hour, and, and, and one that not only people much more intelligent than I have been working on for for years, but one that I've been working on for years and trying to understand. Is there enough time to explain it all? I don't know. I think I understand it though. Understand what happened to me, um, to the extent that I, I, I can see how certain feelings and ideas developed in me to the point where I began to act out on them. Certain very violent and very destructive feelings.
Right. Let's go back then to those roots. First of all, you, as I understand it, were raised in what you consider to have been a healthy home.
Absolutely.
You were not physically abused? You were not sexually abused? You are not emotionally abused?
No, in no way. And that's part of the tragedy of this whole situation, is because I grew up in a wonderful home with two dedicated and loving parents. One of five brothers and sisters, home where we, as our, as children, were the focus of, of my parents' lives. Where we regularly attended church. Two Christian parents who did not drink, they did not smoke, there was no gambling, there was no physical abuse or fighting in the home. I'm not saying this was, leave it the beaver, it wasn't a perfect home. No, no. I don't know that such a home exists, but it was a fine, solid Christian home. And nobody, uh, I hope no one will try to take the easy way out and to try to blame or otherwise accuse my, my family of contributing to this, because I know, and I'm trying to tell you as honestly as I know how, what happened. And I think this is a message I want to get across.
But as a young, a young boy, and I mean the boy of, uh, 12, 13, certainly, uh, that I encountered outside the home, again, uh, in, um, the local grocery store or the local, uh, drugstore, the soft-core pornography. What people call soft-core. Um, but as I think I, I explained to you last night, Dr. Dobson, in an anecdote, that as young boys do, we explored the, the back row and sideways and byways of our neighborhood. And often times people would dump the garbage and whatever they were cleaning out of their house. And from time to time, we'd come across pornographic books of a harder nature than, uh, more graphic, you might say, more explicit nature than we would encounter, let's say, in your local grocery store. And this also included such things as, let's say, detective magazines and more those that involve violence.
Yes, yes. And I, and this is something I think I want to emphasize, is the, the, the most damaging, U, kinds of pornography. And my, again, I'm talking from personal experience, uh, hard, real personal experience. Most damaging kinds of pornography are those that involve violence and sexual violence. Because the wedding of those two forces, as, as I know only too well, brings about behavior that is just, it's just, uh, too terrible to describe.
Now, walk me through that. What was going on in your mind at that time?
Okay, before we go any further, I think it's important to me, the people, people believe what I'm saying, to tell you that that I'm not blaming pornography and not saying that it caused me to go out and do certain things. And I take full responsibility for whatever I've done and all the things that I've done. That's not the question here. The question, and, and, and the issue is how this kind of literature contributed and helped mold and and shape the kinds of violent behavior, fueled your fantasies.
Well, in, in the beginning, it fuels this kind of thought process. Then, at a certain time, it's instrumental in what I would say, crystallizing it, making it into something which is almost like a separate entity inside. And at that point, you're at the verge, or I was at the verge of acting out on this, on this kind of these kinds of thoughts.
Now, I really want to understand that you had gone about as far as you could go in your own fantasy life with printed material, and you made, or printed in video or film, film magazines, what have you. And then there was the urge to take that little step, or big step, over to a physical event.
And it happens. It, it happened in stages, gradually. It doesn't necessarily, not to me, at least, happen overnight. My experience with, I say pornography generally, but with pornography that deals on a violent level with sexuality, um, is that once you become addicted to it, and I look at this as a kind of addiction, uh, like other kinds of addiction, of addiction, you keep, I would keep looking for more potent, more explicit, more graphic kinds of material. Like an addiction, you keep craving something which is harder, harder, something which, which gives you a greater, uh, sense of, of, of excitement, until you reach the point where the pornography only goes so far. You reach that jumping-off point where you begin to wonder if, if maybe actually doing it will give you that which is beyond just reading about it or looking at it.
How long did you stay at that point before you actually assaulted someone?
Well, yeah, you see, that is a very delicate point in my own development. And we're talking about something, we're talking about having reached a point, or a gray area that surrounded that point, over a course.
You don't remember how long?
I, I would say, I would say a couple of years. And what was, I was dealing with very strong inhibitions against criminal behavior or violent behavior that had been conditioned into me, bred into me in my environment, in my neighborhood, in my church, um, in my school, um, things which said, "No, this is wrong." I mean, this, even to think of it, is wrong, but certainly to do it is wrong. And you're on, I'm on that edge. And these, the last, the, you might say, the last vestiges of restraint, U, the barriers to actually doing something, were being tested constantly and assailed, uh, um, through the kind of fantasy life that was fueled largely by pornography.
Do you remember what pushed you over that edge? Do you remember the decision to go for it? Do you remember where you decided to throw caution to the wind?
Again, when you say "pushed," I don't want, I, I know what you're saying. I don't want, again, to understand that I was, that I was some helpless kind of, of victim. And yet, uh, we're talking about an influence which, that is the influence of violent types of media and violent pornography, which had an, was, was an indispensable link in the chain of behavior, the chain of events that led to behaviors, to the, to the assaults, to the murders, and what, and what have you. It's a, it's a very difficult thing to describe. Uh, let me, uh, the, the sensation of the, the, of, of reaching that point where you, where I knew that it, it was like something had, say, snapped. That I knew that, uh, that I couldn't control it anymore. That these barriers that, that I had, had been, I had learned as a child, uh, that had been instilled in me, were not enough to hold me back with respect to seeking out and harming somebody.
Would it be accurate to call that a, a frenzy? A sexual frenzy?
Well, yes, that's one way to describe it. A compulsion. A, a building up of, of this destructive energy. Uh, again, I, another factor here that I haven't mentioned is the use of alcohol. But I think that what alcohol did, uh, in conjunction with, let's say, my exposure to pornography, was, alcohol reduced my inhibitions. At the same time, um, the, the, the fantasy life that were fueled by pornography, um, eroded them further.
In the early days, you were nearly always about half drunk when you did these things. Is that right?
Yes, yes.
Was that always true?
I, I would say that that was generally the case, almost without exception.
All right. If I can understand it now, there is this battle going on within. There are the conventions that you've been taught. There's the right and wrong that you learned as a child. And then there is this, this unbridled passion, uh, fueled by your plunge into hardcore violence pornography. And those things are at war with each other.
Yes. And then with the, uh, alcohol diminishing the, uh, the inhibitions, you let go.
Well, yes. And to, you can summarize it that way, and that's accurate, certainly. And it, it just occurred to me that some people would, would say that, well, I've seen that stuff, and it doesn't do anything to me. And I can understand that. I don't, virtually everyone can be exposed to so-called pornography, and while they're aroused to it, the one degree or another, and not go out and do anything wrong. Now, the addictions are like that. They affect some people more than they affect others. But there is a percentage of people affected by hardcore pornography in a very violent way. And you're obviously one of them. That was a major component. And I don't know why I was grown vulnerable to it. All I know is that, U, that it, it had an impact on me, uh, that was just so, um, central to the development of the violent behavior that I engaged in.
Ted, after you committed your first murder, what was the emotional effect on you? What happened in the days after?
[Music] Well, again, this, please understand that, that even all these years later, it's very difficult to talk about it. And, and, and reliving it through talking about it is, uh, difficult to say the least. But I want you to understand what happened. It was like coming out of some kind of horrible trance or or dream. Um, I can only liken it to after, you know, I don't want to overdramatize it, but to have been possessed by something so awful and so alien. And then the next morning, wake up from it, remember what happened, and realize that basically, I mean, in the eyes of the law, certainly in the eyes of God, you're responsible. To have to wake up in the morning and, and realize what I had done, and with a clear mind, and all my essential moral and ethical feelings intact at that moment, uh, uh, absolutely horrified that I was capable of doing something like that.
You really hadn't known that before?
There is just absolutely no way to, [Music] describe first the brutal urge to do that kind of thing. And then what happens is, once it, it has been more or less satisfied and received, you might say, or spent, that, that sense, that kind of energy level recedes. And basically, I became myself again. I want people to understand this too, and I'm not saying this gratuitously, because it's important people understand this, that basically I was a normal person. Uh, I wasn't some guy hanging out the bars or a bum or, um, I wasn't a pervert in the sense that, you know, people look at somebody and say, "I know there's something wrong with him." And just tell, I mean, I was essentially a normal person. I had good friends. I, uh, I lived a normal life, except for this one small, but very potent and very destructive segment of it that I kept very secret, very close to myself, and didn't let anybody know about it. And part of the shock and horror from my dear friends and family years ago, when I was first arrested, was that they just, there was no clue. They looked at me and they looked at the, you know, the, um, the All-American Boy. And I'm, I mean, I wasn't perfect, but it was, I want to be quite candid with you, I was, I was okay. Okay. Uh, I was, and the basic humanity and basic spirit that God gave me was intact, but unfortunately became overwhelmed at times. I think people need to recognize that it's not some kind of, those of us who are, who have been so much influenced by violence in the media, in particular, pornographic violence, are not some kinds of inherent monsters. We are your sons, and we are your husbands, and we grew up in regular families. And pornography can reach out and snatch a kid out of any house today. It snatched me out of my, it snatched me out of my home 20, 30 years ago. And as diligent as my parents were, uh, and they were diligent in protecting their children, and as good a Christian home as we had, and we had a wonderful Christian home, uh, there is no protection against the kind, the kinds of influences that are loose in the society that it tolerates.
You feel this really deeply, don't you, Ted?
Outside these walls right now, there are several hundred reporters that wanted to talk to you. Yeah. And you asked me to come here from California because you had something you wanted to say. This hour that we have together, uh, is not just an interview with a man who's scheduled to die tomorrow morning. I'm here, and you're here, because of this message that you're talking about right here. You really feel that hardcore pornography, and the doorway to it, soft-core pornography, is doing untold damage to other people and causing other women to be abused and killed the way you did others.
Listen, I'm no social scientist, and I haven't done a survey. I mean, I, I don't pretend that I know what John Q. Citizen thinks about this. But I've lived in prison for a long time now, and I've met a lot of men who were motivated to commit violence just like me. And without exception, every one of them was deeply involved in pornography. Without question, without exception, deeply influenced and consumed by an addiction to pornography. There's no question about it. The FBI's own study on serial homicide shows that the most common interest among serial killers is pornography.
That's true. And it's, and it's real. It's true.
Ted, what would your life have been like without that influence?
You can only speculate. Yeah. Well, I, I know what would have been far better. Not just for me, and, excuse me for being so self-centered here, it would have been a lot better for me and lots of other people. I know that had lots of other innocent people, victims, and families. It would have been a lot better. There's no question, but that it would have been a fuller life, certainly a life that would not have involved, I'm absolutely certain, would not have involved this kind of violence that I have been, that I have committed.
I'm sure, Ted, if, you know, if I were able to ask you the questions that are being asked out there, one of the most important as you come down to perhaps your final hours, are you thinking about all those victims out there and their families, who are so wounded, you know, years later? Their lives have not returned to normal. They will never return to normal. Are you carrying that load? That weight? Is the remorse there?
Again, I, I know that people will accuse me of being self-serving, but we're beyond that now. I mean, I'm just telling you how I feel. But through God's help, I have been able to come to the point where I, much too late, but better late than never, feel the hurt and the pain that I am responsible for. Yes, absolutely. In the past few days, myself and a number of investigators have been talking about unsolved cases, murders that I was involved in. And it's hard, it's hard to talk about all these years later because it revives in me all those terrible feelings and those thoughts that I have steadfastly and and diligently dealt with, I think, successfully with the love of God. And yet, it's reopened that, and I felt the pain and I felt the horror again of all that. And I can only hope that those who I have harmed, those who I've caused so much grief, even if they don't believe my expression of sorrow and remorse, will believe what I'm saying now, that there is loose in their towns and their communities people like me today, whose dangerous impulses are being fueled day in and day out by violence in the media and its various forms, particularly sexualized violence. And what scares me, and let's come into the present now, because what I'm talking about happened 30, 20, 30 years ago, that is in my formative stages. And what scares and appalls me, Dr. Dobson, is when I see what's on cable TV, some of the movies. I mean, some of the violence in the movies, uh, that come into homes today was stuff that they, they wouldn't show in X-rated adult theaters 30 years ago. This stuff, the slasher movies that you're talking about. That stuff is, I'm telling you from personal experience, the most, that is graphic violence on screen, particularly as it gets into the home to children who may be unattended or or unaware that they may be a Ted Bundy who has that, that vulnerability to that, that predisposition to be influenced by that kind of behavior, by that kind of of movie, that kind of violence. There are kids sitting out there switching the TV dial around and come upon these movies late at night, or I don't know when they're on, but they're on. And any kid can watch them. It's scary when I think what would have happened to me if I had seen. I'm scary enough, I mean, that I just ran into stuff outside the home, but to, to know that children are watching that kind of thing today, or can pick up their phone and dial away for it, or send away for it.
Can you help me understand this desensitization process that took place? So, what was going on in your mind?
Well, by desensitization, I describe it in specific terms, is that each time I'd harm someone, each time I'd kill someone, there would be an enormous amount, especially at first, an enormous amount of of horror, guilt, remorse afterwards. But then that impulse to do it again would come back even stronger. Now, believe me, I didn't, the unique thing about how this worked, Dr. Dobson, is that I still felt in my regular life the full range of of guilt and remorse about other things, regret. And but you had this compartmentalized, this compartmentalized, very well-focused, u, u, a very sharply focused area where I was like a black hole. It was like a, you know, like a crack, and everything that fell into that crack just disappeared. Does that make sense?
Yeah, it does. Uh, one of the, the final, uh, murders that you committed, of course, was apparently little Kimberly Leech, 12 years of age. Uh, I think the public outcry is greater there because an innocent child was taken from a, from a playground. What did you feel after that? Was there, were there the normal emotions? Three days later, where were you, Ted?
I, I can't really talk about that right now. That's, oh, yeah, it's too painful. I would like to, uh, I'd like to be able to convey to you what that, that, uh, that experience is like, but I can't. I won't be able to talk about that.
Okay. I can't begin to understand. Well, I can try, but I, I'm aware that I can't begin to understand the pain that the parents of these, of these children that I have, and these young women that I have harmed, feel. And I can't restore really much to them, if anything. I won't pretend to, and I don't even expect them to forgive me, and I'm not asking for it. That, that kind of forgiveness is of God. And if they have it, they have it. If they don't, well, maybe they'll find it someday.
Do you deserve the punishment the state has inflicted upon you?
[Music] That's a very good question. And I'll answer very, very honestly. Uh, I don't want to die. I'm not going to kid you. I'll kid you not. Um, I deserve certainly the most extreme punishment society has. And I deserve, I think society deserves to be protected from me and from others like me. That's for sure. Um, I think what I, what I hope will come of our discussion is, I think society deserves to be protected from itself. Because, because as we've been talking, there are, there are forces that loose in, in, in this country, particularly again, this kind of violent pornography, U, where on the one hand, well-meaning, decent people will condemn behavior of a Ted Bundy, while they're walking past a, a magazine rack full of the very kinds of things that send young kids down the road to be Ted Bundies. That's the irony. We're talking here, not just about more, we're talking, I'm, what I'm talking about is going beyond retribution, which is what people want with me, going beyond retribution and punishment, because there is no way in the world that killing me is going to restore, uh, those beautiful children to their parents and, and, and correct, and, and, and, and soothe the pain. But I'll tell you, there are lots of other kids playing in streets around this country today who, who are going to be dead tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day, and next month, because other young people are reading the kinds of things and seeing the kinds of things that are available in the media today.
Ted, as you would imagine, there's tremendous cynicism about you on the outside, and I suppose for good reason. Um, I'm not sure that there's anything that you could say that people would, would believe.
Some people would believe, yeah.
And, uh, and yet, you told me last night, and I have heard this through our mutual friend John Tanner, that you have, uh, accepted the forgiveness of Jesus Christ and are a follower and a believer in him. Do you draw strength from that, uh, as you approach these final hours?
I do. I can't say that, uh, it's going to be, being in the, the valley of the shadow of death is, is something that I've become all that accustomed to, and I, you know, and that I'm strong, and, uh, nothing's bothering me. Um, listen, it's no fun. It's, you know, it's, it's, it's gets kind of lonely. And yet, I have to remind myself that every one of us will go through this someday, in one way or another. Man, and countless millions who have walked this Earth before us have. So, this is just an experience which we all share.
Yeah. I am quite a, a sobering interview there. Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family with convicted murderer Ted Bundy, a few hours before he was electrocuted. With us this evening to discuss the, uh, matter of pornography. What can be done in our communities? We have several guests. I also want to mention before we get into this, that some of the subject matter here may not be suitable for children or younger members of your family. You might want to caution them or have them out of the room, uh, because of that. With me this evening, uh, on my right is Phil Blowers. He is the Deputy Prosecutor of Marion County. I also have with us, right on my left here, is Dale Arnold. He is from the Citizens for Decency Through Law organization of Indianapolis. And, uh, to his left, former State Senator Jim Butcher. He is, uh, from the Citizens Coalition for Decency out of Kokomo, Indiana. And also with us this evening, we have Detectives Ernest R. Hudson Jr. and Phyllis Christensen from the Indiana, Indianapolis, rather, Police Department. They're vice investigators, obviously. Uh, the Indianapolis Police Department asked them to be, uh, we, uh, preserve their confidentiality there, due to the nature of their work, so we've agreed to do that. I want to ask, uh, first, Dale, uh, from what you've seen over the past few years, is Ted Bundy, what he described as his addiction to pornography and the subsequent actions that he, he did there, is this just an isolated case, or have you seen other things along this line in your, in your work?
Well, I, I'm not sure that we can say that he is an isolated case. However, the magnitude and the number of killings that he has confessed to may be a little out of the, uh, the norm. However, within the city of Indianapolis, there have been cases where men have become addicted, and then that addiction has escalated to where the fantasy has become overpowering, very much like Ted Bundy described, and have committed very violent acts, resulting in death. And, uh, in the state of Utah, there is a man by the name of Gary Bishop, who also has gone through that same kind of of format, to where the addiction was there, then the, the escalation into the harder material. And, as with Mr. Bundy, he stated that he started at a very young age. Yes. One of the problems, you see, it's not human sexuality that is the problem, or it's not viewing a naked body. It's the fact that that he began to get his sexual education at an age in which he was not mature enough to handle. MH. And we need to realize that all of us that are on this panel today realize the beauty and the necessity of of sexual interchange between loving, caring adults. But that is taken out of that context, and that's the problem that society is facing today. The pornographic material that Mr. Bundy saw was not in a loving relationship, but was a very macho type of of entertainment form for him, in which he became the aggressor. He became the one that had to prove his authority. He became the one who perpetrated all of the crimes against someone who was unwilling to be a participant. And that creates the problem that, that we're fighting today, is the abuse.
I want to ask you, Phil, one issue usually comes up in in these types of discussions, and and that is, uh, First Amendment rights. Is this censorship? I also wanted to ask you about RICO. And many of our viewers may not know what that means.
Okay. First of all, I would like to point out that, U, obscenity is not protected by the First Amendment. And that pornography, uh, in general, that this issue, while it is an issue, the First Amendment, that those who are defenders of this garbage, MH, have used that as a ploy to scare people, kind of like, that today, if we allow the prosecutor to go after this, then tomorrow he's going after the Song of Solomon, or something. And that is, is a smokescreen. It's a ploy, and it's, it's not a correct statement of the law. Uh, it's not censorship, first of all, because of the fact that through the due process of law, um, these people are prosecuted for violating what is against the law. If it is against the law, as I said, it's not protected by the First Amendment. It's not protected by the laws, and therefore, uh, it is illegal. And certainly, I think that the state has a legitimate interest in controlling this type of material. And I would agree wholeheartedly with what Dale said, and, concerning the fact that pornography, it really casts sexuality in terms of exploitation and using people. And when that is combined with violence, the potential is that, uh, which we have seen here with Ted Bundy. H. Have you seen that in in other cases that you've dealt with, uh, where sexually explicit material, this, uh, hardcore pornography, that that seems to lead someone into violent acts?
Yes, that is, that's absolutely correct. Uh, we have seen cases, direct cases, where clearly, uh, violent pornography was at least a contributing factor to, uh, a violent act against a person, a sexual attack, or a murder, or something of that sort. And while the empirical data is not extensive, um, common sense dictates that the clearly that pornography is at least a major contributing factor, and especially violent pornography, a major contributing factor, um, to the type of violence which we saw with Ted Bundy. And, and in terms of RICO, some of the new, uh, laws that are coming down, is, is that of help to you in your, in your work?
Yes. Uh, as you know, the, the RICO statute, um, in Indiana is patterned after the federal statute, and it permits prosecutors, through, uh, civil and criminal actions, to go after those who, uh, create and dispense pornography and violent pornography. Uh, recently, a decision by the U.S. Supreme Court clearly, uh, gave the green light to prosecutors to use the RICO statute. And I believe that aggressive prosecutors around the state, including in Marion County, are going to be using that, uh, statute, um, to try to get rid of the vestiges of this, uh, cancer which eats at our society and which causes such a great deal of damage. I'd like to say one other thing. There's going to be a great deal of speculation among those in the media and in public circles, public forums, concerning this interview that we just saw. The question will be, is this the quintessential, uh, con artist Ted Bundy playing his charade out right up to literally the very hour of his death? Or is this an example of a person who is really wrestling, agonizing with what they've done and spilling out their guts about something that contributed to committing these awful crimes? I personally believe, from watching this, that he is sincere about this, and would give him the benefit of the doubt in regard to that. But even if he was not sincere, there is no question that the things that he said to Dr. Dobson are true. The desensitization process, the contributing factor of violent pornography, in the manner in which that it breaks down barriers and creates false images, maybe, creates in the mind of the person, uh, who is viewing the pornography, that women like to be raped, or or women like to be sexually abused. That those factors are undoubtedly the case. And to the extent that the things that he said are true, I don't think there's any doubt about that at all.
We have also with us this evening, uh, couple of detectives from the vice squad of Indianapolis. I wanted to ask, uh, them, why don't we start with you, Ernie? Uh, over the past 10 years, has there been an increase or decrease in the number of adult stores in Indianapolis?
We've had a decrease. Um, in the last 10 years, over that time period, I think we've, uh, closed approximately, um, 15 to 20 of them. Uh, in the last couple of years, uh, we've closed nine. Uh, and, uh, right now, in Marion County, there are, are, uh, five. No, excuse me, four adult bookstores left out of all of them.
Are there certain places that they are located, uh, generally? And, uh, what happens to the neighborhoods where these adult bookstores are located?
Generally, they're located on our major thoroughfares, on all sides of town, U, the high traffic areas. U, adult bookstores tend to, uh, be in lower socioeconomic areas, along with massage parlors. They kind of go hand in hand. I think so many of our viewers, since they don't frequent these places, have no idea what goes on in them. Maybe they, they imagine that this is where a Playboy or a Penthouse is sold. Can you give us a little bit of an idea of of what actually goes on in an adult bookstore?
Well, there's, most adult bookstores have two separate areas. One is, is commonly referred to as a peep show area, where for a quarter, you can see 60 to 90 seconds of a pornographic movie, in a booth. Uh, the other section of the, of the business is the sales and rentals of tapes and movies and magazines. In the peep show areas, uh, within the adult bookstores, in the last 10 years, we've made, made, uh, approximately 1,000 arrests for acts of public indecency. And these are either where, and it's normally males, who are either engaging, uh, in sex with another person, or, uh, self-sex, masturbation, within the booth.
And within the bookstores? Phyllis, if, uh, if a normal citizen could, could, uh, visit one of these places to see what, what goes on in them, what, what kind of feelings do you think would come up in them?
I believe a normal citizen has no idea what's going on in these bookstores. Um, to go in and see these magazines and videos depicting sado-masochistic abuse, specialty group sex, things like that, I think the majority of people are going to be extremely offended at what they find. As far as the peep shows, I believe the same thing. I don't think they know this is going on. If they did, I know these places are going to be closed extremely quick.
We have also with us this evening, uh, former State Senator Jim Butcher. His organization has, uh, really made quite a dent in the Kokomo area in adult bookstores. Can you tell us how you got involved with this and, uh, how you could have such results?
Certainly, Tom. About 18 months, 20 months ago, uh, a core group of people in our community in Howard County determined that we really cared too much to remain silent any longer. And by that, I mean, we began to meet and to determine that we were going to try to raise the community awareness level of the availability of these kinds of obscene and illegal materials and activities in our community. And our goal was to eliminate three adult bookstores, one massage parlor, and one lingerie shop. We had no idea when we initiated this, uh, program, as to the depth of the degradation and the acts that took place inside these five businesses. However, I personally took Howard County Prosecutor Jim Andrews to one of the bookstores. I had not been in one before, nor had he. We both walked out 15 minutes later, rather nauseated. And from that point on, working with our Sheriff, our Chief of Police, our Mayor, and about 40 officers in our, our community, both city police as well as Howard County, put together a sting operation. And last November 9th, uh, about 40 people were arrested for all kinds of illegal activity, from prostitution to solicitation to public indecency. And, uh, from that night on, all five businesses were permanently closed. In fact, all five defendants agreed to a permanent injunction barring them from this kind of activity in Howard County, Indiana. But before I really got involved and became motivated, I came across the final report of Attorney General Meese's commission, a report on pornography that was conducted in late '85 and 1986. And it's heavy reading. It is available in most bookstores. But when several of us began to get into this book and find out what was taking place, and that there are, uh, many, many consequences to the abuse of, um, sexuality, and as we've discussed earlier here this evening, the fact that much of it is exploitation, much of it is involving women and children against their will, we began to look at such other documents as this one called "Pornography's Victims." When we're told that pornography is a victimless crime, and of course, to find out some firsthand statements from people who have been victimized as to what it has done to them, we then realized that we could no longer say we loved our community, we could no longer say we loved our wives and our children and our grandchildren, and remain silent any longer. And so, from 12 to 15 people got together. We worked, we planned, we prayed. We brought in, uh, leaders from across the country. We brought in Dr. Paul Tanner from Anderson, Indiana, Michael McManus, who is the, uh, syndicated columnist who wrote the four words of the Meese Commission report. And 18 months later, this kind of effort and activity resulted in an operation that permanently closed these five businesses in our community. Now, I'm not naive enough to believe that all five of these businesses will never be involved in selling pornography, because probably some of them are trying to relocate in other communities in our state at this very moment. But I, part of my reason for wanting to be here with you tonight is to share that something can be done if people are willing to say, "I really care too much to be silent any longer."
Um, maybe we could just throw this question out, uh, for any of our panelists here tonight. Uh, many of our viewers, this is, this is something that makes us extremely uncomfortable, and it's something that we don't want to hear about. Um, how, how does a person get involved or take some action? Maybe, Dale, you, you, or any one of us here could, could speak to that issue.
The problem is that, first of all, it is very uncomfortable to talk about this kind of of material. And because we are limited in our ability, for instance, if we could bring some of the material that is being sold in these, some of the material that is being used by pedophiles to abduct or to molest children, and show that, the outrage and the outcry would be great enough that we could probably shut him down in a very short period of time. The thing that has to happen, and I think Jim has has stated that very well, first of all, the public awareness has to be increased. Now, what we have tried to do here in Marion County and in Central Indiana is that we began to speak in churches, to civic groups, to Lions, Kiwanis, anyone that would listen to our concern. We didn't go in and cry wolf. We went in with documented information. This is what's occurring. This is how it's done. And showed some of the material. He went the other way, in which he took the top individual who had the authority to initiate some action, and because of what he saw, then their action came, and it went about it in a very short way. The public awareness has to be there. And once that public awareness is brought to the front, then the citizen outcry can be some, can become so great that we can then rightfully demand from our officials, from our elected representatives, that the law be enforced. You see, we're not saying write new laws. The laws are there. They're established. They're constitutional. All we're asking for is that the laws be enforced to protect our citizens.
And, and do you find, maybe it'd be good to ask you about this, Phil, when these things are brought to your attention, you can, you can get action on these things and, and really see some of the places brought down and, uh, type of thing?
Yes. Um, we are very gratified because a, a large number of the, U, adult bookstores have been shut down. There are several still remaining, and we won't be satisfied until they're shut down as well. I think that people need to understand, too, that what we're talking about here, is something that is a public safety issue, as much almost as a public morality issue. That we are dealing with something here, which, as you have seen with Ted Bundy and others, um, is a, it's a real threat to our community. And it is intertwined in violent crime, murder, child molesting, rape, and these types of things. And so we look at it in terms of not just, um, shutting down businesses which are, which are selling this very offensive material, but that in so doing, you are protecting the public and doing something for the people of Indiana.
I, I think earlier we were talking with the, the vice detectives about, uh, some of the things that have happened in the Indianapolis area of of late, where, uh, some of these materials have been available, and there have actually been some acts perpetrated against other, other people. Can you just, uh, briefly mention that there was one case, I believe it was last summer, U, where a female was engaging in a, a bondage sex act with, with her boyfriend, and, uh, during the course of the sex act, he passed out through the use of alcohol, and she died as a result of the bondage act. Things like that. We, we also talked earlier, and, and I was asking you if, if this even affected you just emotionally to see these types of things, whether going into an adult bookstore or seeing, uh, maybe the, the vestiges of what, what this type of material can lead to. Why don't you just comment a bit on that? Maybe Phyllis, if you'd like to.
It's hard to keep yourself away from it. I see these magazines and things with women being used, humiliated, degraded. It's hard for me to understand, you know, how that's entertainment. Um, I don't understand why there's not more women coming out against this type of material. I guess they don't feel victimized until it hits them personally. Um, I have a hard time with that. I have a hard time with seeing children used and victimized. I don't understand how men can use these little children in this way and have any guilt feelings about it or anything. It's hard to, to separate yourself from that, but we have to.
Jim, in your experiences, is, is what, what you've done in Kokomo, could that be a blueprint for other organizations or, or other groups in other communities to do? Can they do that in their community?
The answer is absolutely. Uh, at the present time, I'm personally working with three other communities in our state to attempt to give them some guidance and leadership as to how they might bring about the same kind of result. And as I said, or as Dale said a few moments ago, not every community can use the same approach. Uh, we also talk to the leadership of our Kiwanis clubs, Lions, Rotary clubs, and so on. But I think the primary goal initially is to make sure that people in our various communities know what is available and know what is going on in these places. I think once the facts are known, the people will take appropriate action, including the prosecutor and the chief of police and, and those that are in authority. Uh, I might add also that we invited our Mayor, our Chief of Police, our prosecutors, and our Sheriff to all of our meetings, and they came, and they, along with us, were educated. And then it took a combined effort of all these officers. And that's the only way it, it got done as quickly as it, it was taken care of. It was a combined effort. Politics aside, didn't make any difference what side you were on, what party you were on. You had an investment in the community that you love. You love the people. You had too much pride to allow this to continue on. And we've simply said, "Enough is enough." Decent people, stood up, and they made their voices known. And it can happen in other communities. If the entire state of Utah, and Atlanta, Georgia, and Cincinnati, Ohio, and most of Jacksonville, Florida, can eliminate this kind of activity from their towns and their states, then we think that people in Indiana can do the same thing. And, and there are organizations now that are, have already have a track record of of being able to close these, these places down. Exactly. And they are willing to help other communities across the country.
Maybe, in just the last few minutes we have left, if we can kind of go around, and if there were one or two thoughts that you would come, be able to communicate with our viewers right now, how they could get involved, or, or really, what this whole issue is about. Phil, what would you tell them?
Well, from a legal standpoint, um, I would beseech the people of the communities, U, who are observing this television program, to get involved in this and to support your law enforcement and prosecutors. Because, uh, the pornography laws are based upon community standards. And if the community's standard is such that it tolerates this type of thing, then there's nothing that prosecutors or police can do about it. And so I would, I would just ask people, if they really want this stuff to be rid from our community, to become involved in it.
Dale, from your viewpoint, what would you say?
Well, I, I certainly would echo what Phil said, but there's one other thing. You know, one of the charges that have been made against us as members of CDL, and, and of course, against the prosecutor's office, and, and the idea of censorship, "What consenting adults do is their business." But one of the great tragedies is that we are destroying our greatest natural resource, at least as I understand it, and that's our kids. Ted Bundy, for instance, at the age of 12. But just last year, there was a 12-year-old boy who accessed the DAPORN number, listened to this for a couple of hours, and then molested in a daycare center where he was a four-year-old daughter, or four-year-old girl. MH. Then there are other cases in where boys seven and nine took a six-month-old baby out of a crib and imitated sex acts on her that they had seen in their mother's pornographic, hardcore magazine. And as a result of that, the six-month-old baby died. There are other cases in where boys seven and nine are laying in wait for little girls and raping them at the age of nine. And that's the tragedy of the whole situation. Education is absolutely necessary for us to effectively combat the wages of, of pornography and hardcore violence. And so that would be my plea.
We've just a few seconds. Vice investigators, any, any ideas?
We, we'd have to agree that education, uh, amongst the general public is, is probably the key. If they know what's going on, if they're familiar with the law, and, and know what is happening in their community, uh, they'll get rid of it.
Thanks so much. We appreciate each one of our panel guests, former State Senator Jim Butcher, Dale Arnold of Citizens for Decency Through Law, our detectives Ernest R. Hudson Jr. and Phyllis Christensen, they're, uh, Indianapolis Police Vice investigators, and Phil Blowers of the Marion County Deputy Prosecutor's office. Thank you so much for joining us, and we trust that you will get involved in this issue. Thank you.
[Music]
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