Transcription
So, [music] I'm the oldest of five kids. The youngest three all have special needs. My brother, he has a physical condition, so he can't do a whole lot. So, they basically gave me the responsibility of making sure that he didn't break bones.
>> Okay, hold on, hold on, hold on.
>> Uh-huh.
>> That is an insane job to give to a six-year-old. That's madness.
[music] Yo yo yo, what's up? This is Don Jaloney. Just kidding. This is John Deloney with the Dr. John Deloney Show. Taking your calls on your mental and emotional health in your relationships, your marriages, your dating life, whatever you got going on. For the last two decades plus, I've been sitting with hurting people trying to figure out what's the next right move. I'd love for you to pull up a seat and we're going to figure it out. If you want to be on the show, go to johndaloney.comaskk. And don't forget to check out the together app. It's in the Apple store. It's the app that I made specifically to help you make the next right step in your marriage. A lot of people think marriages are over. I don't know how to do this. Maybe our relationships run its course. We have a good marriage. I want it to be great. This together app is for you. And by the way, I priced it because everybody is is struggling financially. Everybody priced it as six bucks and you can either do it by yourself or bring your spouse for that same six bucks. That's it. Six bucks a month to transform your marriage. The reviews, we got thousands of people in it. The reviews are I mean, they're staggering. They're so great. So, go check it out. It's in the app store. For you Android folks, just relax. We We got it coming, but it's not there yet. But for you Apple folks, um, you can go check it out in the Apple store.
Let's go out to Duth, Minnesota, and talk to John. What's up, John?
>> Hey, John. How's it going?
>> I'm great, brother. How are you, man?
>> Uh, pretty good. It's a pretty cold day up here, but you know, that's kind of kind of how it goes.
>> We need a cool day. It's been an uncomfortably hot fall, so man, we need some of that cool Minnesota weather to come on down.
>> Absolutely. You can have all you want.
>> Very cool. What's up, dude? Uh so I just had a question for you. Um I um my I guess I'll start with my question. My question is uh I'm getting married next summer and how do I deal with the guilt of porn of past porn as I go into this um amazing relationship?
>> How old are you?
>> I am 20 years old.
>> 20 years old.
>> Yes, sir.
>> Um I tell me more about your question.
>> Well,
>> about dealing with guilt.
>> I I'm a very uh guilt heavy uh person. I like that's just inherently uh how how I am. From a very young age, I've had a lot of responsibility um put on me. And when I wouldn't when I I I wouldn't do well with the things that were given to me and my my parents would use uh guilt as a as a motivating factor.
>> Well, it's it's incredibly demotivating. So, it doesn't work. Um g give me an example of a thing you were given to do that you didn't live up to this standard that your parents had.
>> Well, there's a couple circumstances. So, I'm the oldest of five kids and my uh the the youngest three all have special needs. Um and there was multiple circumstances where I'd be 6 7 8 9 10 years old. Like like any like it's been going on since I was really really young. And um my brother has it's he has a physical condition so he can't do a whole lot. So I took care of him a lot and sometimes he would still get hurt. Things would still happen. Uh he has brutal bone disease so he breaks bones really easy. So they basically gave me the responsibility of making sure that he didn't break bones.
>> Okay. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on.
>> Uh-huh.
>> That's insane.
>> Yeah.
>> No, no, no, no. I I don't want you to to hear that. I want you to feel that. That is an insane job to give to a six-year-old or a 9year-old or a 14y old. That's madness.
>> It's a madness.
>> It was similar too. So my one of them, one of my brothers has bro bone disease, so he breaks bones really easy. And the other two we my my parents adopted the youngest two have FASD. Um and it was kind of we were all all homeschooled growing up and it was kind of when dad was gone at work which he worked a lot you know to provide for five kids three with special needs. Uh when dad was gone I was expected to kind of take up the mantle there.
>> What did that mean?
>> I I would watch over my um my siblings and like there was a circumstance where my brother he actually crazy crazy coincidence I guess but he actually had a tree fall on him. The one the one with brittle bone disease. So, it was me and my everyone except for my my dad was home and mom my my my mom grabbed my brother and was able to take him to the emergency room. But I was left in the shock and awe uh as I was 11 at the the time uh with my three other siblings like not knowing what to do, not knowing what's even going on like when my brother was was when he was being taken away. It was pretty pretty extreme. There was lots of like medical stuff going on like is he going to make it, you know? Uh and my siblings are are thinking the exact same thing. So trying to mediate all that as well.
>> Well, the fact that you were put in a scary situation or you're the oldest, you're the 11year-old and we got to take one kid to the ER and I need you to step up. That's that's not a crazy thing, right? Cuz the circumstances crazy, right?
>> Exactly. Yeah.
>> But the fact that you're 20 almost a decade later and you're te as you're telling this story, I can hear it replaying in your body, in your nervous system.
>> Mhm. Mhm.
>> That tells me an important piece was left out. And that is you were an 11year-old not holding things together. You were an 11year-old who was all alone.
>> Yeah.
>> Not just alone for a couple of hours while dad got home,
>> but an 11year-old who was going to be judged for what you did while mom was gone. And why did you let this happen to brother? And why did we You have two adopted siblings with special needs. Why didn't you fill in the blank
>> with no attention to walking in the door and hugging the 11year-old first and saying, "Thank God you stepped up. I knew I could count on you."
>> Right.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> I've had situations where I had to leave. I You know what? I'll tell you the other night, this happened the other night. I have a 15-year-old a little bit couple of years older than you were and a nine-year-old and my wife came in at 11:00 and said, "I got to go to the ER right now." This is just a month ago. I left a note for both of them. And I drove my wife to the ER. And when I got home, the first thing I did was not say, "Oh my gosh, why are there clothes on the floor or what?" The first thing I did, and again, I'm not a perfect parent. The first thing I did was I walked in, I hugged my son, I hugged my daughter and said, "Thank you guys for stepping up."
>> You get what I'm saying?
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.
>> And why am I Why am I pointing back to all of this stuff? You're not dealing with guilt. You're dealing with shame.
>> Cuz guilt says I did something that violates my values. Right.
>> Yeah.
>> I looked at pornography. I don't want to be that guy, but I looked at it. Shame is like, so guilt is I did a thing. I did a bad thing. Right. That right. Whatever. That's just I don't like using that kind of word, but I did a bad thing.
>> Mhm.
>> Shame is I am a bad thing.
>> Yeah.
>> You work you you work through guilt by not doing that thing again. Guilt is a good thing. It's it's a good emotion. It's not something we should run and hide from. It tells us the truth. We violated something. We did a thing that is against our core values. I'm glad that I have guilt. It's a good alarm system for me. I shouldn't have said that thing. I don't want to be that kind of guy. I'm not that kind of guy. I shouldn't have had those thoughts. I shouldn't have looked at that on the internet. I shouldn't have hit that guy in the like parking lot. Right? Guilt is a good thing. Shame is an identity.
>> Well, and I remember very early me and my brother with brittle bone disease actually. Uh now that we're kind of becoming adults, we're able to have those kind of more uh in-depth conversations together. And uh both of us have struggled like that's been our turn to from a very like I remember doing like being involved in that when I was six or seven.
>> Yes. And um I remember I didn't want to talk to my dad about it because I knew that he would be exhausted and more than likely flip out. So I went and talked to my mom who was a very very loving woman. But both of us remember it exactly the same when we individually went and talked to my mom about it. like she like for for the first time I've never seen my mom act so crazy before and she started like blaming blaming us like coming and like attacking us like she wasn't like there she was coming after my brother and I and I remember after that it was just like that was that was a very big core memory defining moment
>> okay and so what you have to commit to doing is not passing that same level of fear here and am I good enough? Questioning onto your new wife.
>> Yeah. Gosh, how do I do that?
>> You have to be really intentional. And it starts with you being honest and saying, if you haven't been already, these are conversations you need to have now because they're going to resurface in a million wild ways over the course of your marriage.
>> Mhm. If you enter into every conversation and every interaction, every tough situation with your fiance in a oh, you might leave. If you really saw me and knew me, you would leave. That's actually I was just talking I'm good friends with my pastor at our church and I was just talking to him on the the way home from work today and I was like I the part of the the conversation is man my fiance is feeling really really distant. What did I do? Like what like like what's what's going on? It just like it immediately turned into fear.
>> Um
>> because your mom left you, bro.
>> Yeah. She just didn't kick you out of the house. When you went to her at the age of freaking six and said, "I looked at something that made me feel gross inside." She said emotionally, "Get away from me."
>> Yeah.
>> And dad just took off.
>> Mhm. And you you've been walking around
>> can happen.
>> Yeah. And you've been Well, here's the thing. You're walking around all the time thinking you're not enough because the two people that were put on the planet to love you and be connected to you said, "You're not enough for me. You're not enough for us."
>> Yeah.
>> So, how can a 20year-old look out into the world and see this beautiful woman he's asking to spend the rest of his life with and say, "Oh, she's going to buy it, though.
>> You don't even buy it. You don't think you're enough.
>> Mhm. And so the path forward is sitting down and being honest and saying, "I don't know that I've fully told you the death. The fact that you described your mother before you told me what happened, how she went after a six-year-old for stumbling into pornography. The fact that she didn't hold your hand and say, "Oh my gosh, I completely let you down. It's my job to keep you safe from that kind of trash when you're six or seven. I failed you. And by the way, boobs are awesome and you're going to always be curious and there's nothing wrong with you for wanting to look, but there's a time and a place for it. And this is this isn't healthy. It's not good.
>> Yeah.
>> The fact that that wasn't the conversation, it was your gross. You disgusted me. get out of my So you sitting down with your fiance and saying, "Hey, look, I'm still to this. Here's the programming I've got that I'm not enough. And the way I have tried to feel alive in my own skin is through pornography. And I'm done with that. I'm going to trip up and I'm going to stumble. I'm going to feel guilty because guilt is right." Because I've set a value for myself and I've tripped over my own values.
>> Mhm. But I need you to know there's going to be times when I need you just to put your hand on my hand to put your forehead on my forehead because I've got it wired into my nervous system that the people closest to me are going to leave cuz I'm not enough.
>> Yeah.
>> And she might say, "Actually, I've been meaning to talk to you and y'all need to have that conversation now." or she's probably going to say, "I said I would marry you. I'm never going to leave. I think you're enough."
>> And by the way, beginning to believe and learn that I am worth being loved and those two people didn't do a good job at all, but I am worth it. You have work to do. You can't just sit in a room and imagine what happens next. It's your job to go find mentor relationships because you can't rely on your parents
>> and we're not going to cut them off. I'm still going to show up at Thanksgiving, but they don't get a vote anymore.
>> Yeah.
>> It's my job to go show up and do the work when it comes to my professional work, to my academic work. I'm going to make good grades because that's kind of guy I am because I'm worth that.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm going to exercise because I'm a I'm a guy that's a good steward of my body. You get what I'm saying? I'm going to start changing the identity and then I'm going to backfill that with action.
>> Yeah.
>> I'm going to seek vitality in life. I'm not just going to sit at home feeling dead in my own skin. Every time my partner gets up, my fiance gets up to go to the bathroom. I'm going to be like, "What did I do? What's wrong? Does she not like me anymore? Oh my gosh, what's happening?" And the way I can shut that voice off is with pornography or with a drink.
>> Mhm.
>> Right.
>> Mhm. Yeah. That's your that's that has to be your path moving forward. But all that's going to start with a full transparency with her. Hey, I've never told you about what really the kind of the the weight I've had to carry. My dad looked at me and made put me in charge of his special needs children and made it my responsibility at nine at 11 that if something happened to them that was my fault. It's madness. madness. When my mom used to leave and have to rush one of my siblings to the emergency room, I got graded on my performance, not hugged with gratitude. It's madness. I'm sorry that you've had to endure that. You get to decide what kind of man you're going to become next. And the challenge for you is those two people, the two people that were supposed to be ride or die for you weren't. But you've got to have men and women that are out ahead of you that are ride or die with you. And you're going to have to go seek them out. And you're going to have to be really courageous and trust again. Be honest again. That's your mission, my brother. I'm going to send you a copy of Building a Non- Anxious Life. And hang on the line. I'm going to hook you and your fiance up with a year of the Together app for free. And y'all can use this as y'all are starting your new marriage together. I think it's going to make an amazing difference. Um, and hang on the line here. We'll get you hooked up.
We come back. A man asks if he should divorce his wife who just came out as a lesbian. All right. I travel all over the country. And I've got social media clips all over the place. And if you've ever seen me out and about or on the internets, you've for sure seen me wearing poncho shirts. I love wearing poncho shirts. And right now, it's cold outside and I can wear my super favorite poncho denims and flannels like the one I'm wearing right now. Poncho's performance denim has that soft, broken in feel with a little bit of stretch like you've worn it a thousand times, but it still looks amazing. And poncho flannels come in original or western styles. And they're guaranteed to be the softest shirts you own. Somehow they're both durable and comfortable. They're amazing. Poncho shirts come in slim or regular fit, and they're built for real life. Whether you're outside doing work, you're outside fishing or hunting, or if you're on stage, they hold up to whatever life throws at you. When you're shopping for the men and the boys in your life this holiday season, go to ponchooutdoors.com/daloney. You can sign up with your email and you'll get 10 bucks off your first order. I want you to tell them that you heard about Poncho right here on this show. And if you take a picture of yourself on social media, tag me and tag Poncho. Hurry and place your order now to get free shipping before the holidays. That's poncho outdoors.com/daloney.
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All right, let's go up to Seattle, Washington, home of the great Sound Garden, and talk to Jake. What's up, Jake?
>> Hey, how's it going?
>> Doing good, brother. How are you, man?
>> Well, you know, been better, been worse. [laughter]
>> That's well done. Well done. What's up?
>> Well, um, my wife came out to me uh, a few weeks ago now, and uh, there's been a few updates, but it doesn't seem like that was her intention. But at the time, I thought the divorce was clearly the right option. She disagreed,
>> came out came out in what way? Came out that she's not attracted to you anymore. She's attracted to women. What? She came out how?
>> So, here's how she phrased it. And and this is what kind of caused the tail spin. She came out and said to me, "Josh, I'm gay." Now, for for a little bit of backstory, she had come out to me before we got married as by. That was something that I knew, was aware of, we were both good with like, "Hey, I beat out twice as many people. That works for me." [laughter] That's like the old chasing game. You're like, "Dude, I I I I tried out 100% of the field and you win."
>> Yeah. Okay.
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um but then, you know, 3 weeks ago, she comes out and says, "Hey, I'm gay." Uh and so for me, instantly, I'm thinking, "Okay, well, we don't have kids yet. Uh we we are in a position where we could separate fairly quickly and easily."
>> What was what was the context of the coming out?
>> Well, I didn't have a lot. uh she has been kind of on a journey. Her her mental health has had a lot of ups and downs.
>> Okay.
>> Um and she over the last, you know, we've been married for just over 3 years now. And I >> with me is kind of the first time she's had the emotional safety to do her own exploring of her of her own identity and in herself. Um, and so she's been working through that, a lot of it with me, but you know, this part in particular, more so on her own with her therapist. Um, and so she, um, has been [clears throat] embracing more of her queer identity, and that was what prompted her like, hey, you know, I don't want to hide this from you anymore, Josh. I want to share this with you that this is I'm I'm embracing more of this side of my identity. And apparently that's what she had intended to say. And when it came out with the words, I'm gay, my immediate conclusion was, okay, you're a lesbian.
>> Yeah. So, but but what's the implication for I'm going to explore this side of my identity outside of a outside of a and by the way, I spent my I spent my entire career with um LGBT organizations in higher education. Okay? So like I've I've been through this conversation with 18 and 19 and 20 and 21 year olds and 25 year olds for two decades. Like before it was it was everyone was talking about it and after everybody was talking right I haven't heard this conversation. I'm just going to explore this thing outside but not explore it.
>> Yeah. I mean and for her I think she's still figuring out what that means. But the example she brought up and what is still driving me to consider divorce because because I think if it had been phrased differently, it wouldn't have come up as a consideration. But she also mentioned potentially opening up the relationship. And she was very clear like if you say no, it is a hard no. I'm not going to try and force this open or anything along those lines. Um, but the fact that she brought it up was a was a big deal for me because before we got married, that was a very clear shared value. Like our definition of marriage, part of that is monogamy.
>> Fidelity. Yeah.
>> Yeah. Opening it up is not is not part of that. And so now I'm at a place where, you know, I I I'm honored that I've created a safe place for her where she is, you know, feeling free to ask these questions of herself. But my concern is now if her val if her value has diverged that much from mine. I don't I don't I don't know how to work with that.
>> So what's your question for me, man? I mean, what I'd like is for someone to tell me what to do and and [laughter]
>> I I mean, here's let's get beneath the the the confusing part or the radioactive part. And the confusing radioactive part is you're trying to be a very open-minded, kind, loving husband, right?
>> Yes.
>> Okay. and your fiance or girlfriend lets you know, hey, I've been attracted to men and women and I picked you. Cool. Great. And we had this shared value of of fidelity and monogamy. We had this shared value of fill in the blank all of your shared values. This is who we're going to be. And then a couple years in, she comes to you and says, "Hey, actually was kind of thinking we could open this relationship up and have sex with more people." What do you think? I want to get away from the identity conversation and from the straight and queer conversation. I want to get away from that a little bit to the hurt guy that's sitting in front of me whose wife just said, "I have been exploring my identity and I have come to the realization that I don't think that you're enough. I want more." Because that to me sounds like the pain point. And as a supportive guy, you're trying to hold up, okay, I've created a safe space. There's identity discussions. There's all sorts of things on the queer spectrum. There's all I want to get beneath that to the guy that just has his heart broken cuz his wife said, "Ah, you're not enough. I'm thinking I want more."
>> I guess I feel like, you know, there's there's things I can handle and maybe even this I could handle, but I don't know how much farther are we going to diverge in values. I I don't think I don't think it's I don't think it's the values conversation, brother.
>> I think it is your wife looked at you and said, I want somebody else. I want you and some or I've quote unquote discovered myself and realized, man, if I could do this over, I wouldn't have done this with you, but I'm stuck with you now. Can we add somebody else? and she's denied that. She said that, you know, she's I mean, even after that whole conversation, it sent her into a tail spin. She said she wish she could take it back cuz she loves me. She wants to be with me.
>> Okay.
>> She finds me attractive, and that's all great, but I mean,
>> and and and I fully believe her when she says there's not been someone else that she's like had her eyes on or anything along those lines. Uh which helps, I think. Um,
>> so, so if that's the case, now let's again let's take off the radioactive part, the part that gets the internet all fired up and let's just say I've been married for 23 years and I've said some stupid things that upon further examination I didn't really mean or I didn't mean them in the way they came across. What is it about this situation that you're thinking, "Yeah, but I think I'm out."
>> I think for me, like I
>> my wife has said things that hurt me that upon further reflection, she's like, "I didn't mean it like that. That's not what I I said. I know I said those words, but that's not what I meant." And it hasn't occurred to me. I'm out. So for you, you heard this and then you heard like the that's not what I meant. I'm sorry. What is it about this moment in time in your relationship with this person that you're saying, "Yeah, I can't go any further."
>> I think for me, I want stability in a marriage.
>> Okay. And if and and I'm I'm going to come back to the values, not this specific one, but if those values are shifting, I feel like I don't have that stability.
>> And and give me and you you've probably heard me say this on the show a million times. I always say couples have to be aligned in their values, but they can be all over the place with their beliefs. That's fine,
>> right?
>> What value has shifted?
>> Monogamy. I mean, she said that she won't do it if I'm not up for it, but just the fact that like that she's open to the idea. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.
>> Okay.
>> And and Yeah.
>> What? Give me another value. Give me another value cuz I feel like a lot is hinging on this one this one exploratory question.
>> It is. It is. And that's a big part of my problem. And why? Like
>> I I guess what I'm challenging you is it my gut tells me there's something deeper or there's something else.
>> I think I'm just I I've just witnessed her change and grow as a person. And so I think what a lot of this is is my internal fear that that's cuz cuz that's the the biggest one far and away. There's nothing that even comes into the same category of things we've changed our mind on.
>> Okay. But when you sat down and said, "Hey, you said this thing. you proposed this and I believe that if if I had said I'm in I'm into this, you would have been all in and it hurt me deeply that you would consider adding somebody else to our secret world. And she said, "I didn't mean it. I'm sorry. I I was just kind of out of my mind. I'm sorry."
>> Oh, I apologize. That's not what I meant to say. Okay. What I meant to say was what what I meant the what she communicated to me was that um she is sorry that she worded it that way. She is sorry that she um did not plan ahead in how she was going to communicate this, but she still sees she still sees opening up the relationship as something that's viable.
>> Okay. Okay. Gotcha. Okay. So, y'all y'all have a y'all have a values difference.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. And that's a significant one. And so you are okay now now I'm understanding you are right to say okay what's next.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> I mean and and I believe her when she says you know without my consent she wouldn't you know go out on her own and do that. Um but just the fact that we have this way different definition it feels like this gulf that I don't know how to get across or how to meet in the middle. H [clears throat]
>> and yeah, what's next? What what other values are we going to start diverging on? Um I'm going to freethink for a second out loud. Is that okay?
>> Yeah, you go for it, man.
>> Um, I remember a few years ago talking to a couple, one of the one of the people had experienced some pretty significant trauma when they were a child. Okay. And it had kind of there had been some hints about it, but it had never been fully discussed between the two of them. And when it finally came out and they were having the conversation and this person said I need to go do my trauma healing in my work there was this conver there basically it was you pause our life I'm going to go over here and do I'm going to pause our my life I'm going to go over here and do my healing you continue and what I communicated to that couple is hey you have to do your own trauma healing And y'all are both different now. Your marriage is different now. And so any exploration of who you are is an exploration of who y'all are. And what I'm hearing in your right. So somebody has to go to the therapist by themsel and do that hard work. But that can't happen in isolated secret because you got a partner over here cuz when you get married 1 plus 1 equals 1. You got a half of an entity over here going, "Okay, uh, everything's changed, but I'm right here. I'm all by myself. I'm not hearing this. I'm not." Right. And so I hear your situation similar, which is we got married and we created this sacred safe place. And then she said, "I'm going to pause this thing. You keep going. I'm going over here to explore myself." And she keeps coming back a different version and a different version and a different version. And you're saying, "Hey, hey, hey." Like every time you change, we change. And that's very counterultural. We're not allowed to say those kind of things in culture anymore. But it's madness because when you're married, 1 plus 1 equals 1. And you're wondering, "How much more are you going to change?" Because we're changing every time you change. Does that sound right or am I out to lunch there? [clears throat]
>> Uh, that is how I feel. I'm not going to say whether it's right or wrong because she, you know, she might I mean, if we're if we're so off off our communication that we had this big of a misunderstanding, I don't want to say that that's correct, but it's how I feel. That's how I feel.
>> Okay,
>> you nailed it.
>> Feelings are part of it. Feelings are some data, but they're not always truth tellers. Our feelings job is not to tell us the truth. They're to keep us safe. So, let me ask you the hard hard question. What is true inside your marriage? Because I hear you trying to be open-minded and openhearted and expansive and forgiving and inclusive. You're trying to be all of these things, but I want you to be honest about you like what is true in your marriage. We are very different people,
>> okay,
>> than we were.
>> The sentence that's in my in my head is the person you married no longer exists.
>> Is that too big of Is that too big of a stretch?
>> Yeah, we heard that before marriage and like were gung-ho and embrace like, yeah, you got to choose to love, you know, who you marry and who they're going to be 5 years from now. I guess I guess you don't think about what that actually means when they change.
>> And for me, that's the question you have to answer that I'm going to challenge you to not go ask anybody else, what should I do next? That's a decision that you have to own. I appreciate the call, man. You're right. It's hard. Marriage is hard, especially when one of you starts changing and really transforming and exploring new identities and wanting to try things that were formally way out of bounds values-wise. And let's, you know, can we come back to the table and look at each other and say, "Okay, the marriage we had is over. You've come back and put some big new things on the table. A new identity, a new sexual orientation, a new sexual practice you want to try that includes bringing other people in. Do we want to build a new marriage together? And that's the question all of us have to ask. Thanks for the call, brother. I appreciate you.
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All right, let's go out to Fargo, North Dakota, and talk to Curtis. What's up, Curtis?
>> Oh, nothing much. Just here to get some help and some advice.
>> You got it, brother. Let it rip. What's up?
>> All right. Well, I'll start with this. Um, well, I just found out about two weeks ago on my best friend's girlfriend's uh birthday that she kind of trauma dumped me and said that uh my my best friend made her get not made her but suggested adamantly suggested that she get an abortion and she did. And that didn't sit right with me. He lied [clears throat] to me. He never told me that ever.
>> What did he say when you confronted him?
>> I haven't confronted him yet.
>> How good of a Hold on. How good of a friend is he?
>> I He was my best friend. I've known him since I was 12. I'm 20 years old. So,
>> I mean, what kept you from walking right over at the party?
>> Well, he wasn't he wasn't there at the time. So,
>> or that you walked out and picked up the phone. I I'm I'm struggling. I got some ride or die buddies, man.
>> Mhm.
>> And that kind of that kind of conversation, whether it's about abortion, whether it's about new girlfriend, whether it's about any number of of life challenges.
>> Mhm.
>> Like what has kept you quiet for so for so long?
>> I'm just I don't know how to deal with it. It just shocks me. I'm still like I'm still grieving that in some ways too. And it's just
>> that you're grieving that like do you have a strong feeling about abortion or is it that he kept a secret from you or is that you thought
>> the line and like the loss of life that's a big one and then like uh the lying too. Yeah.
>> Okay. I guess I guess at on the outset as a guy with some old school buddies I got buddies that are more than 40 years old.
>> Mhm.
>> We got values all over the planet that are different from each other. Especially we got beliefs all different. But you better believe we pick up the phone and call each other. And I'm wondering how good this friendship was.
>> Yeah.
>> Or maybe maybe it's
>> I don't think we talk seriously like that. I would say
>> I mean I think step one is to call your friend and go, "Bro."
>> Yeah. [clears throat] Yeah. For sure. And this might be a stunner, but sometimes girlfriends don't tell the truth, too.
>> Mhm. Yeah.
>> Would there be a chance that that story is just one-sided?
>> I don't I I don't think so. She seemed very sincere when she told me this.
>> Okay. I think your friend of eight years, almost a decade, is at least worth the phone call to find out.
>> Yeah, certainly. And I guess I'll say this, the one of the hardest lessons I've had to learn in my life is that friendships that were ride or die for a decade, for two decades, people grow up and they grow apart.
>> Mhm.
>> And it's one of the there's no breakup with your buddies.
>> Right.
>> Right.
>> I don't know. Like when you're when you break up with a girlfriend, you like it's just like over. Like we breaking up. It's like all these these rules like we don't call each other or text each other or whatever. Or if we get a divorce, there's like legal proceedings.
>> When you have buddies that like you got in fights with in elementary school and middle school and high school and you all did things together and y'all spent the night each other's houses and you all went like when suddenly you're like, "Oh, I didn't know you were that dude. I'm out." There's not there's not a set of rules after that.
>> Yeah. That's that's the uncertainty I'm trying to address here. Certainly. I I I'll tell you, I don't know if I use the word confront, but I just know I love my friends,
>> especially my guy friends.
>> Yeah.
>> I love them with my life.
>> I love them with my family's life after I'm dead, whether it's their an executive or my will or like whatever. Um, and so I don't know if it's the word confront as much as my hope is right when we get off this f this call you pick up the phone and say, "Bro, we got to talk." Are you all in the same town?
>> Mhm. Mhm. Mhm.
>> Yeah, dude.
>> I'm coming over tonight. We got to talk.
>> Certainly.
>> And by the way, you don't have to make any calls or decisions tonight.
>> Mhm. Mhm.
>> But like if he confirms exactly what she told him, then uh you say like, "Man, I need some time to wrap my head around this one. You're not the guy I thought you were. You're not the man I thought you were."
>> Mhm. Certainly.
>> Yeah. [clears throat]
>> And if it played out like he like she said it did, he's probably hurting too, huh?
>> Yeah. That's the thing is like he's um from what she's told me and I haven't reached out to him so I should definitely verify but she's told me that he's he's been very like when she when she went to get this abortion and then she was or first of all my best friend wasn't even there when he got when she got the abortion and then when she came back and talked to Luke after the whole you know abortion process he said well she wanted to keep the baby and he said you know you probably only wanted to keep this baby just so you could keep me around. So, that's another thing to address as well cuz that seemed very manipulative and shallow and deceitful.
>> It is. But also, people say crazy things when they're scared to death.
>> Certainly.
>> I'm not giving him a pass, but I'm saying that a dude probably know what day it is.
>> Mhm.
>> And that's Yes. Objectively on the outside for me and you that's a really scumbag thing to say to somebody.
>> Yeah. that you're trying to peer pressure into doing something that's against her values.
>> But I'm wondering if the thing he needs on the front end of all of this is a hug. Yeah.
>> From his oldest friend of the world.
>> Mhm.
>> Maybe not. Maybe you need to go punch him in the mouth. But it sounds like he needs a hug. But it sounds like he is spinning out all by himself. And if he looks at you and he rolls back and he's like, "Bro, you don't know what you're saying. And you don't know like, you know what I mean?
>> Mhm. Mhm.
>> Here's what I'll tell you. I don't think I've ever told this on this show ever. I'm hesitating to even say it out loud. Um, I will. My oldest friend on the planet is a parapolgic.
>> He's in a car wreck after college. The last conversation we had with each other was me confronting him on something and I only had one piece of the information and it came out later that I was wrong and the last words we ever said to each other are not repeatable on this show.
>> Sorry to hear that. I tell you that to tell you the greatest gift you can give a friend is the benefit of the doubt.
>> Correct.
>> And the chance to be honest and tell the truth.
>> And if this has been your ride or die buddy, your best friend for going on a decade, he's earned the right for a face to face man-to-man conversation.
>> Definitely. Don't make the same mistake I did going in Guns ablazing.
>> Yeah.
>> Yeah.
>> Because at least in my case, I was wrong.
>> Cool.
>> That definitely that definitely brings clarification to it cuz I when I first heard that I was not in the mental capacity to deal with that, I was just so angry.
>> I know. But your friends your friends deserve your anger too.
>> C. Yes. Certainly. And they deserve your celebration, too.
>> That's the definition of a friend. Can you say the hard stuff, too? Can you say the dark stuff, too? And can you celebrate together? That's what a friend does. It's all three of them.
>> Certainly.
>> Yeah. When you get off the phone call, dude, set up a time to go meet with him tonight.
>> I will.
>> And at least give him a chance to hear himself out. I think he's earned that. Friends are worth the benefit of the doubt. And then if he says he confirms everything like, "Yeah, dude. This and this and this and this," then you take
24 hours and you got you got some choices to make, some decisions to make about the men you want in your life, right? I'm not in the habit of hanging out with men that pressure women to do things and to make accusations against women and who violate values. Like, I don't hang out with those dudes, right? And it's right to be sad if this has been a buddy that you found out when things got hard who he really was. That's heartbreaking. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It was a was certainly a tough night when I heard all that. Yeah. And for whether for clarification, I've got friends on both sides of that issue. Close friends on both sides of that issue. Yeah. And so that's not necessarily a deal breaker. The deal breaker is can we be honest with each other, right? So, I wish you the best, my brother. Make that phone call and then go go hug your buddy and then stare him eye to eye and you'll have a hard conversation tonight. And if you need to leave tonight, look at him in the eye and say, "Never lie to me. I'm your friend." Mhm. Cool. Yes, sir. All right, man. It's been it's been an honor talking to you. I wish you the best. Let me know how that conversation goes. And if he wants to holler in, I'd love to talk to him, too. We'll be right back.
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All right, Kelly, am I the problem? All right, so this is from Matthew in Oklahoma City and he writes, "Dear John and Kelly and team, you always add that. It's right here in writing. Yeah, this can be Oh, we'll skip that part. Blah blah blah blah blah. My wife and I have been married for just under two years. We are both 23. We've gotten to travel a few times, just the two of us, to various national parks to hike and camp. And we love that type of travel. But we are also saving for future years when we can travel abroad together as well. My mom wants to take us traveling quote anywhere in the world that excites us, but one at a time so that she can get to know us INDIVIDUALLY AND SO THAT SHE doesn't feel like a third wheel. Are we the problem for not wanting to see parts of the world apart from each other? No. How do we communicate the appreciation for a trip offer but not a desire to travel to places that we would only get to see once but without our spouse? That's divide and conquer. That's not getting to know one person. Getting to know one person is like my dad and my wife used to go have like Chinese food every like when they first got married. They went out once a week when I was like in class or doing like I I think that was when I was coaching and I had games. They would go out and have dinner. That's getting to know each other, right? Like that's hanging out. I want to take you to Italy for two weeks while you stay at home just like that's divide and conquer. I'm out on this one. What do you think? I might be I might be overjudging it, but this one just doesn't sit right with me at all. I agree. I mean, my my late mother-in-law, I would have happily gone anywhere with her because we would have had a great time. But that was also, you know, us being married for 20 years and and she was delightful, but she never would have said, "I want to take you both somewhere, but I want to do it separately." She never would have offered that. I mean, it she just she never would have thought that way. It might have been like a girls trip or something. But yeah, I think it's super weird to say, "I'll take you anywhere you want to go in the world, one at a time, but without your spouse, which that's the kind of thing you want to share with your spouse." Yeah. To me, it's really weird. Yeah, dude. I don't know if she has nefarious like motives about it, but it's weird regardless. Even if it's not I'm trying to divide and conquer, it's still weird. Yeah, I'm out with an OT on that one. If you want to get to know each other, go hang out on a regular basis in consistent chunks. Not and doesn't she know her son? No. I got to really get to know. That's what I'm saying. This thing's whole thing sounds shady. She's the real shady. Yes, she's the real shady. All the other slim shadies, they're just imitating. I don't want to talk bad about your new mother-in-law, but run. That's all I got to say about that. I don't know. D4, what do you think about that one? Weigh in, homie. [gasps] Um, yeah, it feels weird to specifically say, "Hey, your spouse is not invited." Like to call it out. Like, I don't know. I wouldn't have MADE THAT CALL. [laughter] [sighs] H. I'M GOING TO GET us in trouble. Let's bounce. Love you guys. Stay out of trouble. Bye. [music]