Transcription
The enemy was a tangible thing, a propagandist monster whom you could understand, whom you could hate. But this war, the enemy was a curious organism, only vaguely understood, more often the subject of cartoons than nightmares. The main effect of War on the home front was economic, unemotional. More taxes, but more jobs as well. After 20, 2 years, only 27 returned veterans, not enough to make a decent parade. The most important fact about the war to most people was that if it ended suddenly, Earth's economy would collapse.
The engagement of the United States in the Vietnam War directly followed the end of World War II in Asia in 1945. Initially, the US had minimal involvement, but this would change over time. Over the following decades, the United States's involvement increased dramatically. The height of the United States's military involvement in Vietnam was in the spring of 1969, with nearly 550,000 American troops on the ground in the country. By the time the United States was done in March of 1973, over 3 million United States citizens had served in Vietnam.
There were a few reasons that the United States entered this war: the Korean War's unresolved outcome, the Pacific conflict with Japan, support pledged by Joseph Stalin and others to the Viet Minh during the First Indo-China War against French colonial rule, and the rise of Communism following the Chinese Civil War. This is arguably the key reason. At the time, the Domino Theory, prominent in United States foreign policy, aimed to prevent the spread of Communism in Southeast Asia. In September of 1950, the United States began supplying the French and from 1950 to 1954 contributed over $3 billion, covering more than 80% of the war's material cost. This would be about $40 billion today, adjusted for inflation. All of this initially had a significant boost to the United States's economy, though it ultimately led to significant inflation, budget defects, and economic strain. The conflict also ultimately resulted in 79 United States military deaths and cost the lives of millions of Vietnamese soldiers and civilians.
Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein was first published in November of 1959. Since then, the book has gone on to be praised by some and criticized by many for its portrayal, and some would say glorification, of war and the militarization of humanity. The Forever War by Joe Haldeman, written in 1974, was created as a response to Starship Troopers. It includes staunchly anti-war themes relating to the pointlessness and cruelty of it all. These, of course, were not the only two works of Science Fiction by that time to have themes surrounding warfare and military. Alfred Bester's 1959 book The Stars My Destination, though more of a revenge story, involves significant conflict and military elements. H.G. Wells also included elements of warfare and military style conflicts in his works, including his most famous work, 1908's War of the Worlds. Philip Francis Nolan's 1928 novel Armageddon 2419 AD explores themes of survival and resistance in a post-apocalyptic world and the fight against imperialism and colonialism.
As I've mentioned in earlier videos, the 1960s gave birth to the New Wave, a movement in science fiction led by authors like Michael Moorcock, Ursula K. Le Guin, and J.G. Ballard. It was a movement characterized by stylistic experimentation, psychological depth, and sociopolitical themes. Writers associated with the New Wave sought to elevate the literary quality of Science Fiction, moving away from traditional space operas and adventure stories made popular by the likes of Isaac Asimov, Robert Heinlein, Arthur C. Clarke, and Edgar Rice Burroughs. The New Wave movement represented a significant shift in the way science fiction was perceived and the way in which science fiction authors presented stories. Authors during the New Wave had more of an interest in presenting the darker and more taboo sides of humanity. Topics surrounding sexuality and drug culture were not uncommon.
Joe Haldeman's The Forever War drew inspiration not just from earlier science fiction during and before the New Wave, but also significantly from his own military service. Haldeman was drafted into the United States Army in 1967. He served as a combat engineer in the Vietnam War. His time in the military, as well as the sense of alienation he experienced upon returning to America, was the inspiration for this novel. The Forever War explores the sense of alienation often felt by war veterans upon returning home and the sense that time is slipping away that emerges when people spend so much time away from home, protecting the ones they love from a distance, only to come back and realize that the world has moved on without them. Joe Haldeman uses a sci-fi universe containing elements like time dilation in order to drive these themes and ideas home.
The Forever War is the story of the brutal and long-lasting war between humanity and a race of alien beings known as the Taurans. The Forever War has long been considered a masterwork of Science Fiction, and I agree it deserves its legacy. It is also a highly influential work in science fiction and has left its mark on the genre in a significant way. There are certain aspects of the novel that come across as dated, and we'll get into those later, but in general, The Forever War was a great read, and its core ideas are presented very well. Keep in mind that this video will have spoilers for The Forever [Music] War.
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Part One: The Time War
Humanity discovered collapsars 12 years before the war began. Collapsars were essentially portals in space that allowed for instantaneous travel from point A to point B. Every collapsar had planets of some kind. These were called portal planets. These were usually very cold worlds because collapsars did not produce heat. The discovery of these portals was a massive event for humanity as a whole. Just fling an object at a collapsar with sufficient speed, and out it pops in some other part of the galaxy. It didn't take long to figure out the formula that predicted where it would come out. It travels along the same line, actually an Einsteinian geodesic, it would have followed if the collapsar hadn't been in the way, until it reaches another collapsar field, whereupon it reappears, repelled with the same speed at which it approached the original collapsar. Travel time between the two collapsars, exactly zero. Collapsars were perfect spheres, about 3 km in radius. Collapsars existed in a state of constant gravitational collapse, moving at nearly the speed of light. Though collapsar travel was instant, humanity was still subject to the rules of relativity where conventional space travel was concerned. Because of this, travelers would experience a differential flow of time in comparison to the humans on Earth. Time would move quickly on Earth, but slowly for them. Near the Alabaran sector, inside the constellation Taurus, humanity first encountered the aliens, sparking a war that would continue for hundreds of years. The rules of this war were somewhat different from the rules of an ordinary war because this war would be fought with the use of collapsars and vessels which approached light speed. The laws of relativity would rear their ugly heads. This was no ordinary war, this was a time war.
In the first direct encounter with the Taurans, the human soldier slaughtered the Taurans, who seemed to have limited ways of fighting back. But the next encounter would be quite different. Nine years passed from the perspective of Earth and from the perspective of the Tauran, but from the perspective of the military vessels, only 8 months have passed. This meant that the Taurans had 9 years of technological development, whilst the engaged portion of humanity's military had essentially stood still in an engineering sense, as we haven't done any important research and development aboard ship. "That enemy vessel comes from our future," he paused to let that sink in. "As the war progresses, this can only become more and more pronounced. The Taurans don't have any cure for relativity, of course, so it will be to our benefit as often as to theirs. For the present, though, it is we who are operating with a handicap. As the Tauran pursuit vessel draws closer, this handicap will become more severe. They can simply outshoot us."
These were the effects of time dilation, which is a real concept in physics created by Einstein. It describes how time can pass at different rates depending on certain conditions. When you move very fast, close to the speed of light, time appears to slow down for you compared to someone who is not moving as fast. This means that if you are traveling on a spaceship at near light speed, you would age more slowly than your friends back on Earth. Time also passes differently depending on the strength of gravity. The stronger the gravitational field, like near a massive planet, a black hole, or a collapsar, the slower time moves. If you were near a black hole, time for you would pass more slowly compared to someone far away from the black hole. Time can stretch or compress depending on how fast you are moving or how strong gravity is where you are. These are the conditions in which the war between humanity and the Taurans takes place.
As the protagonist William Mandella travels back and forth on missions, he finds that technology has advanced dramatically each time he returns, and this obviously affects the military strategies and equipment, forcing soldiers to constantly re-adapt. Haldeman uses time dilation not just as a scientific concept, but as a narrative tool to explore the human aspects of war. As I mentioned earlier, some of the major themes of this book are disconnection, alienation, and the sense of lost time experienced by soldiers who return to a world that has moved on without them. This becomes extremely clear the first time Mandella returns to Earth to discover a world and a humanity that has changed significantly, and not necessarily for the better.
This was a bloody, devastating, and ultimately pointless war. The cost of human life was astronomical, and so was the cost in human suffering. By the end of this 1,143-year-long war, some eventual truths would come to light, truths that cast an utterly different light upon the war. This was not a war started or provoked by the Taurans. Humanity had been the aggressor all along. This information had been clear and out in the open. Humanity had simply refused to see it. You couldn't blame it all on the military, though. The evidence they presented for the Taurans having been responsible for the earlier casualties was laughably thin. The few people who pointed this out were ignored. The fact was, Earth's economy needed a war, and this one was ideal. It gave a nice hole to throw buckets of money into, but would unify humanity rather than dividing it.
The Taurans were not beings prone to war, and this was due to the fact that they had no concept of the individual for the millions of years of their existence. They had been natural clones of each other. Humankind and the Taurans only learned to see eye to eye once humanity evolved past a certain point. By the end of the war, humanity was made up of clones of one man and one woman. Genetic diversity was no longer considered necessary. Eventually, Earth's cruisers were manned by men-clones, and they were for the first time able to get through to each other. The book stated this as a bald fact. I asked a man to explain what it meant, what was special about clone-to-clone communication. And he said that, "I a priori could not understand it. There were no words for it, and my brain wouldn't be able to accommodate the concepts even if there were words."
"Humanity in this stage was made up of clones of a single individual, half of them male, half of them female. They not only share identical genetic makeup, but a single consciousness as well." "I am over 10 billion individuals, but only only one consciousness," she said. "After you read, I will try to clarify this. I know that it will be difficult to understand. No other humans are quickened since I am the perfect pattern. Individuals who die are replaced." This is the most dramatic expression of the sense of alienation that Mandella experiences throughout this book. All of humanity now shares a single consciousness, which he is not a part of. This is, in fact, the ultimate form of alienation. How could he possibly coexist in this world? Luckily, there are still some human planets where humans live and reproduce in what the book refers to as the "Maman way." Veterans of the Tauran War were free to go to those places or attempt to integrate into the larger human society.
The depiction of war in this book is brutal. It is not overtly gratuitous, but it does not shy away from a horrific depiction of warfare, and it also doesn't shy away from depicting the effects of war on civilians and the societies they inhabit, particularly where economies and bureaucratic structures are concerned.
Part Two: The Alienation of War
An Economy of War. By the way, I figured I might as well say this here so I don't get a thousand comments about it later. Yes, Mandella's name is spelled like Mandela, but it's actually pronounced Mandella. The book mentions that when his parents were married, they chose the name Mandella as a last name. The priest didn't know how to spell it, and he just wrote it down how he thought it sounded. This is a small detail, but I figured I'd mention it.
Now, when Mandella returns home for the first time, decades have passed, and the world has changed in many ways. This is central to the narrative, as it highlights the key theme of this book: Mandella's alienation from the human race. Over time, Mandella's experience is not just a metaphor for a veteran's return; it is, in fact, a direct portrayal of this reality. His journey through time, influenced by the effects of relativity, mirrors this very real sense of emotional and psychological displacement experienced by veterans during the Vietnam War. Unlike previous conflicts, the Vietnam War veterans did not receive a hero's welcome. Instead, they were sometimes met with indifference and even hostility. The war had lasted 10 years, and by the end of it, the cultural landscape of the United States had shifted. There was a generational divide, with younger people often leading the anti-war sentiment, which had become prominent at the time. This all further isolated many veterans who felt their sacrifices were unappreciated or misunderstood.
Several things contributed to the negative perception of the war and of soldiers, including the media's portrayal of the war and its coverage of atrocities like the My Lai Massacre of 1968, one of the most infamous incidents of the Vietnam War, in which American soldiers, led by Lieutenant William Calley, systematically killed 500 unarmed South Vietnamese civilians. This included children and infants. Many of the villagers were raped and mutilated. The United States Army attempted to cover up this massacre, but the truth would eventually be exposed.
I have to emphasize again that the cost of life during the Vietnam War was extreme, and like humanity's war with the Taurans in The Forever War, it was eventually recognized to be mostly pointless. Though some would argue that it played a role in the broader context of the geopolitics of the Cold War, but without a doubt, the war had lacked clear objectives, had questionable strategic value, and ultimately failed to achieve any objectives in Vietnam. Veterans of the Vietnam War were perhaps unfairly associated with the cost of a conflict that yielded no substantial gain, even though many veterans themselves were anti-war. They would be forced to bear the burden of societal disillusionment and misunderstanding. They returned home to a nation struggling to reconcile the immense loss with the ambiguous and often contentious reasons for war. Essentially, the war was long and costly, and it had confusing origins and objectives to begin with. People needed something or someone to blame.
In The Forever War, Mandella remains unchanged due to time dilation. This leads to the world eventually becoming unrecognizable to him. The changes in society, technology, and cultural norms during his absence make it difficult for Mandella to reintegrate. As more and more time slips away, he finds himself more and more out of sync with a world that continues to evolve, and this, without a doubt, embodies the struggles that many veterans of Vietnam faced when they returned to a civilian life that no longer felt familiar. This alienation is compounded by the fact that those who remain behind have adapted to the new world, whereas Mandella has not had the opportunity to experience this gradual transition. So even those he knew on Earth, like his mother, feel somewhat alien to him.
From my perspective, Mandella's journey highlights the wider ramifications of war and how it affects the lives of individuals. The book explores how war can isolate and close off individuals from their society, not just physically, but also emotionally and psychologically. This theme shows the cost of the conflict and the overlooked personal battles that keep going on long after the fighting stops. Since this book is essentially about the Vietnam War told through the lens of a sci-fi story, a lot of this book is about the price we pay in war, not just in human lives lost, but the emotional cost that those who survive continue to pay as well. As I mentioned, a major truth about the war that we discover at the end of the novel is that it was always a lie. In the end, it is revealed that humanity attacked first. We started the war against the Taurans. Earth's economy needed a war, so we created one and eventually depended on it.
This novel essentially shows how economies are deeply intertwined with military needs. The never-ending state of war against the Taurans drives technological advancements and economic policies. Resources are heavily allocated to the military because this is a society where the economy is geared toward sustaining and perpetuating war. Inflation and economic instability are also things that become apparent once Mandella returns to Earth. He returns to find that the money that he has earned and saved during his time in the military has drastically lost its value. This is the result of the unpredictability of prolonged economic instability. Mandella also returns to Earth to find that in a world of 9 billion people, there is a 66% unemployment rate. Like in the Vietnam War, the conflict initially contributed to economic growth through increased government spending, but it ultimately led to significant inflationary pressures, budget deficits, and economic strain.
What is ultimately left over is a society and a system that de-prioritizes and devalues the individual in favor of maintaining collective conformity and efficiency. A perfect example of this is the healthcare system depicted in the book. In their system, at a certain age, medical care is distributed based on a rating system that prioritizes individuals according to their perceived societal value. At some point in the book, Mandella is seeking medical assistance for his mother, Beth Mandella, who is critically ill. However, he encounters a nightmare of a bureaucratic obstacle. His mother has a zero priority rating, meaning she is not eligible for any medical treatment. "It's part of the universal medical security system. Everybody gets a rating on their 70th birthday. It comes in automatically from Geneva." "What does it rate? What does it mean?" "But the ugly truth was obvious. Well, it tells how important a person is and what level of treatment he's allowed. Class 3 is the same as anybody else's. Class 2 is the same, except for certain life-extending. And Class Zero is no treatment at all." "That's correct, Mr. Mandella." And in her smile was not a glimmer of pity or understanding.
Essentially, Mandella comes to the realization that there is really no life for him on Earth. It is now a world where jobs are so scarce that people rent out their jobs to other people, and a world in which they simply give up on you and let you die when you grow past a certain age or are simply not important enough. The war is like a current, simultaneously feeding on humanity while also sustaining it, and when Mandella thinks that he might escape it, the current simply pulls him back in. He goes back into the war because even if he dies, which is likely, that life is still more acceptable than the life he would have on Earth. Again, this is the theme of alienation rearing its head. He is too alienated from the current world to adapt.
Later in the book, it is mentioned that Earth moves through cycles, from better to worse, from worse to better. And I believe that in reality, humanity has always operated under these cycles. The idea that Earth and humanity move through cycles from better to worse and vice versa reflects a deep understanding of the constantly changing nature of life, and thus humanity. The Roman Empire, the Greek city-states, and ancient Egypt all had periods of prosperity followed by decline. Economies go through booms and busts, characterized by periods of growth and prosperity, and recessions and decline. This idea of cycles is backed up by countless historians and scholars, namely Arnold Toynbee, who in his work A Study of History, published from 1934 to 1961, proposed that civilizations go through a cycle of birth, growth, peak, decline, and fall. Recognizing these patterns helps us to understand past events and anticipate future trends so that we can adapt and maneuver through these events. I think that a major part of this book is meant to demonstrate that humankind does, in fact, move in these cycles, from bad to worse, from better to good.
"Last time you were on Earth was 2007, according to the records." "That's right." "Didn't like it much, did you?" "No." "Zombies? Happy robots?" "Well, it got better. Then it got worse." "Thank you." A private brought his drink, a bubbling concoction that was green at the bottom of the glass and lightened to chart at the top. He sipped. "Then it got better again. Then worse. Then I don't know." "Cycles." "What is it like now?" "Well, I'm not really sure."
I also think that the book is asking the question: Must war always be a part of these cycles, or can we eventually get to a place where humanity can exist peacefully and with stability? Like all good science fiction, though the setting is futuristic, the book is about the real world we live in.
Part Three: The Forever War and the Future of Human Sexuality
When I first picked up this book, I was not expecting the sexuality of the characters to be such a significant focal point, especially considering the time this book was released in. But upon researching the time period, some things became more clear. In 1973, the American Psychiatric Association officially removed homosexuality from its DSM, its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. From this point on, homosexuality was not considered pathological in the United States. It would no longer be treated as a mental illness. The Forever War was released the following year. This novel was written at a time when the idea of gay life being a part of American life was just a novel one, no pun intended. Joe Haldeman obviously wanted to explore this concept, and for the time period, it's actually quite progressive, as science fiction typically is. Historically, this particular topic was essentially new terrain. I think that because all of this was very new at the time, a lot of the views expressed in this book relating to these topics do feel dated, to say the least. I have to say that at times, this book feels less about The Forever War and more about how Joe Haldeman isn't gay. This was the opinion that I came to while reading the book, and lo and behold, I was exactly right. In this interview from Joe Haldeman, he states, "I'd known too many people that were not just gay, but transsexual or people who dress up, not to see that it's just behavior. I can't draw any moral lines. Deep in your heart, you know what you are. And as much as I love these guys, they were my closest friends, I just couldn't get into the notion of having sex with a man."
It is very clear that the character Mandella represents Joe Haldeman himself, and this is confirmed by everything he's ever said about the book. As I've mentioned multiple times, the theme of alienation plays a big role in this novel. Everyone is gay in the future because Mandella needs to feel disconnected from the changing humanity. But in my opinion, there are more poignant ways to express this. Instead, the novel spends too much time on how weird it is to the protagonist, instead of going into more depth on the more interesting aspects of the universe being crafted. What is the state of Earth's culture in the year 2458, other than the fact that everybody is gay and polyamorous? Reading the novel, this isn't exactly clear. This part of the book seems oddly obsessed with sexuality, and in a way that is distracting and ultimately detracts from some of the more poignant ideas in the book, like an economy built around and sustained by war. The book is only 278 pages, and from about page 139 on, the sexuality of characters is mentioned at least 35 times, and almost every time, the book makes sure to reassure us that Mandella isn't gay.
What's a bit confusing is that at some point, it kind of seems as though the book is making the argument that sexuality is fundamental; it can't be changed no matter the pressure to conform. Mandella is a straight man, and this is also backed up by the quote I read earlier from Haldeman. But this point is totally undermined in the book by the fact that the narrative indicates that it was government propaganda that influenced humans to be gay as a form of population control, and it's also totally undermined by the end of the book when the character Charlie, the only person Mandella had ever really been able to connect with in this world of gays, instantly chooses to change his sexuality to straight given the first chance he gets, even though there was absolutely no pressure to do so. Now, I have no doubt that if humankind was given the ability to easily switch between sexualities, some would do it. But it is undeniably a bit odd that the book spends so much time showing us Mandella's sexual security and sexual inflexibility, but when it comes to the only other gay character that we get to know in the novel, Charlie, his sexuality is more or less meaningless, to be given up and traded for "normal" on a whim. It is almost as if it's saying that in a world of gays, a straight man could never change, but in a world of straights, a gay man would instantly jump at the opportunity, even when there's no pressure to conform. Now, the book does make a point to mention that by this time in history, sexuality is easily changeable back and forth, so it's not like Charlie is making some big commitment to be straight. But it is telling how easily he was willing to try, as opposed to the main character. Now, of course, you could make the argument that Charlie is a 25th-century man, so perhaps his sexuality wouldn't be as tied to his identity as someone like Mandella. But ultimately, I do believe this still muddles the point. At this point in history, Charlie is as much alienated from his own time as Mandella, and yet the novel sets it up so that his reintegration into society will be pretty straightforward, no pun intended.
Lastly, I would say that though I see the purpose of it as a narrative tool, the idea of the government psychologically conditioning the entire populace to be gay as a form of population control is a bit silly. Heterosexuality is a biological necessity, and the human race would not exist without it. It would take more than propaganda and conditioning to suppress it; you would have to alter humanity on a biological level; you would have to manipulate genetic components. But this again is related to the fact that this book was written at a time when these conversations surrounding sexuality were just beginning to happen. I had a lot of fun reading this book, but it is true that a large chunk of this book was tied up on, "Look how gay everyone is in the future, and look how weird it is." I would have used a larger variety of things to express Mandella's separation from society. Like I said in the beginning, the book is very of its time. A lot of older books don't necessarily age well in some aspects. It doesn't make them any less masterworks of fiction, and make no mistake, The Forever War is absolutely a foundational work in science fiction and absolutely deserves its praise.
Part Four: Conclusion
In conclusion, The Forever War by Joe Haldeman stands as a remarkable and praiseworthy work of literature, especially in the science fiction and war novel genre. Haldeman's firsthand experience as a Vietnam veteran lends an authenticity and deeply personal perspective to the narrative, and it infuses it with a sense of realism and emotional depth that can sometimes be missed in science fiction. The novel's exploration of the psychological and societal impacts of prolonged conflict is profound. The Forever War is not just a tale of interstellar warfare, but a commentary on the futility and the devastation of war in any era.
One of the most compelling aspects of The Forever War is its exploration of the dehumanizing effects of war on soldiers. They are forced to watch their friends die in horrific ways and commit brutal acts of violence. They cannot tell the difference between what they are conditioned to think and do and what is authentic them. Through the protagonist William Mandella, Haldeman captures the alienation and disorientation that come from returning to a society that has left you behind. This theme of alienation, which glues this entire novel together, is universal and timeless. It is the experience of countless people, not just veterans. The idea of time dilation just serves to amplify these feelings. This book is about the giant gap that war can sometimes create between those who fight and those who remain behind.
What I loved about this book was also how it highlighted the impersonal nature of war. The novel's depiction of a never-ending conflict driven by faceless bureaucrats and fought with increasingly detached methods seems so real because it is. We never see a villain in this story. The villain is society itself, the machine that drives it all, the machine that requires this unending war. It is an obvious mirror to the real-world mechanization and depersonalization of modern warfare. Society, ultimately, The Forever War is a great book about war because it transcends the typical boundaries of the genre. At the time, like so many works during and directly following the New Wave, it is a resonant critique of endless cycles of conflict. I think Haldeman's storytelling and his observations on the human condition are the reason The Forever War remains a seminal and influential work that continues to capture people till this day, and it's also influenced plenty of science fiction since. Old Man's War by John Scalzi and even The Expanse by S.A. Corey have drawn influence from this book. In my opinion, the legacy of this book continues to live on.
Thanks for watching, guys, and now we are moving on to Patreon questions. As I said, if you would like to support this channel further, then click the link in the description and check out our Patreon page. Patrons get access to early versions of my videos before they go live on YouTube. The first Patreon question that we're going to answer this time around comes from Tentacle. The question is, "It's been ages since I read The Forever War, but I remember that I was quite intrigued by the book and its premise. Do you know other sci-fi stories which deal with the relativity of time and space travel?"
Well, I think this is a relatively, no pun intended, common theme in science fiction. One science fiction book that I know for sure uses it is Hyperion, which I've covered to some extent on this channel. Hyperion is a science fiction book by author Dan Simmons, which I try to mention as often as I can because it's just brilliant, and it does have this concept. And then there's also Revelation Space by Alastair Reynolds. The concept of relativity is also a part of these books. And then also, to some extent, The Three-Body Problem book series, The Remembrance of Earth's Past Trilogy by Liu Cixin. At some point in that series, relativity definitely becomes a major part. This is a concept that you find all over the place. Now, of course, some science fiction doesn't really make mention of it. Like, for instance, Dune by Frank Herbert. They don't really make mention of any type of relativity. This could be because the Holtzman engine folds space, and so you're not necessarily approaching the speed of light when you're traveling; you're literally folding space, so relativity doesn't really come into play. Or it could very well just be something that Frank Herbert wasn't concerned about exploring, because Dune is a very human series. So while the concept is common because it's a fun, scientifically based idea to work into a story, and it can lead to all sorts of narrative things happening, it's not something you necessarily see in every science fiction story that involves space travel. And really, every science fiction story that involves, um, space travel approaching light speed or faster-than-light travel, sometimes relativity doesn't matter at all. As I always say, science fiction is fiction. Yes, you start at a basis of science, but eventually, you have to go into the fiction territory. Nobody has invented wormholes yet. Nobody has invented, um, the Holtzman engine yet. Nobody has invented FTL drives yet. Nobody has invented warp speed yet. So all of these things are fictional, even though they're initially based in a real scientific concept. And I should also add the caveat sometimes to that, because even that's not always true.
So, the next question that we have comes from Donovan Car. "Have you read anything that is purely from the perspective of the non-human? For instance, Remembrance of Earth's Past Trilogy has elements of this and the reasons for the conflict, but I mean an entire story dedicated to the conflict from the other side's perspective."
Now, really, the closest thing that I can think of right now to this idea is Children of Time by Adrian Tchaikovsky, because I would say about half of that book is told from the perspective of a growing society of sentient spiders. And I always uplift that book as one of the coolest modern science fiction books that I've read. It is a very good book. It is gripping. It is a page-turner, and it is absolutely so intriguing and interesting to see the development of a society of spiders and the differences between that society and our human society, you know, just based off of, you know, their evolution and the fact that they are a different species. Like we started as apes, and they're starting as arachnids, so obviously their society is going to evolve different cultural and societal norms than the one that we have. So that is a very interesting book, and I think that's a very interesting thought experiment. But I can't think of anything that is purely from the perspective of the non-human. If anybody has any examples, or if there's something that I'm not thinking of, please post in the comments section, because this is actually a very interesting question to me.
Now, another thing that comes to mind, even though this isn't technically sci-fi, and they always got to throw in, you know, something that's not technically sci-fi, um, It by Stephen King has an element where there is a Lovecraftian type horror entity that lives underneath a town. Um, curiously, it takes the the form of a spider at one point, or at least in an arachnid form. But anyway, there are several chapters in this book that are from the perspective of this kind of cosmic Lovecraftian horror, and I find those chapters very scary and intriguing, and so I really enjoyed those parts of it a lot because they gave insight into the mind of like something like this, something, you know, that's ancient and terrible and powerful and truly beyond our understanding. So that's another potential example that I have, even though that's not, obviously, most of the book is not told from the creature's perspective. So that is it for Patreon questions right now. Thank you guys so much for listening. Make sure you like and subscribe for more Quinn's Ideas. Check out the channel for more videos on science fiction. [Music]