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I need help, um, deciding whether I should be evaluated to determine if I'm a donor match for my mother, who is in stage three kidney failure. Um, so just for some background, both my parents are alcoholics. Um, they were very heavy, um, there were very much in their, um, addiction, um, for the majority of my adolescence. Um, I've experienced a lot of verbal and, um, emotional abuse and neglect from both of my parents when I was when I was younger. Um, in 2007, she was diagnosed with breast cancer. You know, she did the treatment and went into remission, and then some years later, she was diagnosed with heart failure, which, uh, led to her heart transplant in 2015. Um, there were periods of time when they would not drink, but it's always something that they kind of went back to. She's never really lived a healthy lifestyle, like not eating healthy, not taking care of herself, not exercising, not addressing her mental health problems, not taking her medication properly. Um, as a child and a teenager, I struggled immensely with her alcoholism. When I was in the fifth grade, I began to self-harm. They eventually found out, took me to a few counseling sessions, and, um, it was never brought up again or spoken about. Um, I continued to self-harm until I was about 18. Um, I moved out of my parents' home, and I haven't self-harmed since. Um, I'm not very close with my mother. Um, I don't talk to her much.
>> So, bring, bring me here to bring me now. I, I've got the full picture there. It's been a rough go.
>> So, how, how old are you right now?
>> I'm 31.
>> Okay. And how old is she?
>> Uh, she's, uh, about 62, I believe.
>> Okay. And I'm guessing she's in renal failure. Her kidneys aren't working anymore. Oh, yeah. You just, you said that already. So, she's in stage three.
>> And have they reached out to you as a potential donor?
>> Um, they haven't necessarily reached out to me, but they have said, you guys should be, um, evaluated to see if you are potentially a donor. Yeah.
>> Wow, that's a tough one.
>> Yeah, there's lots of layers.
>> Well, can I peel back all the layers for you?
>> Yeah.
>> I want to wipe the table clean of all layers.
>> Okay.
>> Okay. And the way you just, um, and, and as much for you as for everyone else listening, you gave me, you just like took a completely peeled onion and you layered it back together for me, starting in as a kid, fifth grader.
>> Yeah.
>> All the way 26 years later till you're 31 years old.
>> Mhm.
>> And then you've got a mother who's already had a heart transplant, who continues to drink, who's had cancer, who's had all these things. And the message that she needs to be a steward of her body has never gotten through. And I'm not going to blame her. She may be sick. She may be, I don't know what her childhood was like, but what for whatever reason,
>> Right.
>> She's continued to choose choice after choice to not go get well.
>> Right.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, I want to take my arm and swipe the table completely clean.
>> Okay.
>> And I want you to tell me, are you the kind of person that feels like you have to do this no matter what? Or are you the kind of person who doesn't want to do this, but you got a little guilt? Or who are you in this moment faced with this decision?
>> So.
>> Because listen, real quick, all of this other stuff is feels like you're trying to make a case for yourself as to why you don't have to or shouldn't want to, or if you feel guilty, you shouldn't feel guilt. And I want to get, I want to free you from all of that.
>> Yeah.
>> Do you want to do this thing?
>> I don't. I actually, I, I don't. I truly don't think that.
>> Just, just say that. Just say that. I don't want to.
>> Yeah. I don't. I don't. I don't want to.
>> Put a period at the end of that and just exhale for a second. Drop your shoulders. I don't.
>> Now, when you say, "I don't want to," whose voice is coming in saying, "No, no, no, but you should." Whose voices are that? Is it your church's? Is it your friends? Is it a distant guilt, um, like written voice from your mom? Who's coming in and saying, countering what you don't want?
>> Um, mainly my siblings. My sister, to be exact.
>> Okay. Tell me about that.
>> Um, she's my older sister. Um, I have asked her previously, she's aware of, you know, my trauma and my struggles with my parents. Um, I've asked her previously if she would resent me in the future if I choose not to be evaluated, and she's essentially said that she, you know, she, she doesn't know. She can't, she can't tell the future of that.
>> Okay. Let me ask you this. Do you have a close relationship with your older sister?
>> Um, sometimes yes, sometimes no.
>> Okay, which that means no. That means sometimes y'all perform well with each other, and sometimes maybe you go to each other for comfort,
>> But that's not a, you don't, you don't have a ride-or-die relationship. In, in abusive households, sometimes kids huddle together and they become inseparable because they had to, and it becomes this lifelong bond. And other times they get split up. One becomes the caretaker, one basically becomes the parent of the household, one becomes the blamer, one becomes the peacekeeper, one becomes the, "I'm out of here." And you may have seasons or moments where you're really tightly knit out of a shared traumatic experience, but y'all aren't close. Does that sound right?
>> That's very accurate.
>> Okay. So, I want to challenge you. Why are you giving your sister a vote here?
>> Um, because I, I want to, um, I guess, just, I want, I seek a close relationship with her, and I always have.
>> Um.
>> Okay. Stop right, stop right there.
>> You want a close relationship with your sister, period. Can you drop your shoulders on that one?
>> Yeah.
>> You're 31. You should have had that a long time ago.
>> Yeah.
>> And the question I have for you is, does she want a close relationship with you?
>> She says she does.
>> Behavior is a language. Does she want a close relationship with you?
>> No.
>> Okay. Can we just sit there for a second?
>> Yeah.
>> Because after your parents didn't show up for you, your parents were sick your whole childhood. Your sister probably played a pretty maternal role in your life, making sure you were at school on time, and making sure you were safe, and you were driven to where you needed to go. And I can't imagine the nightmare that she doesn't want to be close with you either.
>> Yeah.
>> And can, it's real easy to be 31 and start to think, "What is so unlovable about me that both mom and dad and now her?" I just need to tell you, it's not you. They have their own demons, all three of them.
>> I'm sorry. You're doing something that you don't want to do, and this is an extreme situation. You giving up an organ, doing a thing you don't want to do, will not lead to this close relationship with your sister that you're so, you're so, you want that so badly, you'll give up a part of your body to a dying woman. You want it so badly. And I'm just telling you, on the other side of that, that's not going to be the thing because you have never been the problem in that relationship. And it feels powerless, right?
>> I'm sorry.
>> Do you have younger siblings?
>> Uh, no. I'm the youngest.
>> Okay. How many, do you have an older sister? Do you have an older brother? Older any other other older siblings?
>> Just an older brother and older sister.
>> What's your brother say?
>> Um, my brother doesn't feel like me or my sister should have anything to do with it, and he feels as though him being the oldest should, um, kind of take over and see if he can be a donor, but he has his own health issues that would disqualify him from being a donor.
>> Okay. Are you married?
>> Yes.
>> What's your husband say?
>> My husband absolutely does not want me to do it.
>> Okay.
>> Of all the people you mentioned, um, I would take his vote into account first.
>> Yeah.
>> And I would take your vote into account into account first. And my guess is your vote has been squashed your entire life.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Now, I can't on this call tell you what to do. I'm not going to do that.
>> And in my mind, I might be thinking, "You're crazy. You should give your." I'm not, but I could be. What I think about this doesn't matter. What I want to do is clear the deck and tell you that the choice is painful, but it's simpler than it seems. And if the outcome of, "I'm going to give a kidney to somebody who is desperate for life and who is lifegiving," and I don't want to say there's an ROI on doing the right thing, that's not what I'm trying to say. But I'm willing to put my life and health for my family on the line because this is a person who is XYZ.
>> Then I will support you all day long. But I'll also support you if you say, "I'm going to put a kidney on the table for somebody who A, doesn't care, B, um, I'm doing it not to save somebody's life, to give them more life, but I'm doing it to try to win favor with somebody else."
>> I would tell you don't do that. I'll support you in that, too.
>> Yeah.
>> And I guess I mostly want to just give you a hug and say, "I'm sorry this whole thing is a mess."
>> Thank you.
>> Because I've seen the other situation where parents, a parent needs a kidney or something needs some sort of support, and because of the legacy they've left for their kids, there's a line of kids and cousins like, "I'm in. I will. I'm in." Right. And I hate this is the world you've grown up in.
>> It just breaks my heart for you. It breaks my heart for your sister, your brother. It breaks my heart for your parents. Breaks my heart for everybody.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> So, what are you thinking?
>> Um, I mean, I think you just kind of solidified everything that I have, I have been thinking. Um, you know, I have two kids, so I also have to think of my kids and, you know, what, what it could possibly mean for my kids in the future.
>> I mean, it could go both ways, right? Let's say your, your, you had a great relationship with your mom. Um, everything was totally different.
>> One of the greatest gifts your kids could see is their mom,
>> Mom's sacrifice. Like that would be an amazing gift for them too, right?
>> Yeah. Mhm.
>> And so your kids get a gift either way.
>> Whether they see mom giving up one of her kidneys for one of her family members, that shows them the power of family and the power of sacrifice. Like that could be awesome in and of itself.
>> Mhm.
>> And also you choosing not to, and maybe I don't know how old they are, but you explaining, "Here's my thought process. Here's why I am opting out of this situation. Here's why I'm not even going to go get tested." Um, "My family has pretty much excluded me my entire life. And now they're trying to draw me back in because I have something they want." Whether that's money, whether that's a kidney, whether that's job success, whether that's fame, whatever that is. Um, "They're trying to draw me back in to use me for a thing." Um, that's a great lesson for them, too.
>> Yeah. Yeah.
>> But I also feel a little bit of guilt that if she doesn't pull through and ends up passing, that they, I mean, she doesn't have much relationship with them as it is, but they're, there goes their grandma, and I maybe could have helped save her.
>> So, fast forward a year, she's got your kidney. Is she out running around with those kids? Is she calling them over to see her?
>> Probably not.
>> No.
>> Is that heartbreaking to even think about?
>> Yes, of course.
>> The challenge is by doing something really courageous and brave like donating a kidney, which I'm in high support of the act of, right? I think it's a noble, awesome thing. Bone marrow, all that stuff. Is doing it for codependent reasons or doing it to try to further perpetuate or kick down the road a fantasy of, "Now everything's going to be okay. Now my sister's going to finally love me after 31 years. Now my mom's going to finally start being a good steward of her body," even though with her heart transplant and this and this and this, she hasn't. Now my older brother is going to think highly. Like these things aren't going to come to fruition. Now, even if your mom never changes, and she's not been there for you, she struggled with addiction, she has, um, got a new heart, got a new this, got a new this, cancer survivor, all these things. If you said, "I want to do this because I think it's right," knock your lights out. I'll support you. And hopefully, if you sat down with your husband and said, "I know," and "I know," and "I know," and "I want to do this thing," he would say, "I don't want you to do it, but it's your body and I will stand here with you. I'll hold your hands through and before and after the surgery." I would hope that would be the case. So, I don't want to say you only do nice things to people if there's an ROI in it, like you're going to live a healthy life. Sometimes you just do the next right thing. But I guess what I want to free you from is you have any obligation to fulfill some fantasy of a repaired relationship, worth being loved, all these things. You're not going to get that externally. And I just hate this whole situation for you. So, thank you so much for the call, Michelle. I wish you the absolute best in whatever you decide to do. And I guess I'll just lean on you and tell you, choose guilt over resentment. You're going to feel guilty either way. You're going to feel guilty no matter what decision you make. Which one of these decisions are going to lead you to a place where you absolutely resent yourself and your situation and your family members? And which one of those are you going to feel guilty, but no pun intended, you're going to be able to remain whole?