Learn Storytelling in 72 Minutes — Will Storr

Will Store is on the show today, and he's written seven books. He is like a scientist for storytelling. And now you might think, "Oh my goodness, do we need another storytelling person?" But Will's different. And he's different because he talks about character instead of plot. Most people talk about the hero's journey, but Will says, you know, let's talk about great characters. What makes for a good character? And what's fun about this episode is by the time you're done, you're going to be able to go out, hang out with your friends, and instantly test what he's talking about.

All right, let's rock. So, what I want to start off by talking about is stories and why we have stories: to make sense of reality. Well, one of the main reasons we process reality as a story is just simplicity. To kind of, you know, reality is enormously complex. It's chaotic. And what's one of the things that story does is it gives us this kind of simple, kind of fairly linear kind of experience of the world. So, kind of that simplification is really, really important.

It's also really important for, um, kind of human behavior and human progress. Like, we're a unique animal in the sense that we imagine the future. We have these great dreams and ambitions and goals. Um, we have regrets, you know, that exist in stories from our past. And so that kind of storytelling capacity, um, you know, is really our superpower in the sense of it, it really, you know, separates us from the rest of the animals. I mean, you know, cows and, you know, fleas and fish aren't imagining the future like, "What if we could, you know, escape the ocean and get on land?" But humans do that. So, so that's the other thing our storytelling capacities are doing. They're kind of, um, you know, really helping us, um, survive and progress.

And what is it that most people miss about storytelling? Because what I want to do with this, with this interview is take what most people miss and show people what they can do to write better stories, to tell better stories. I mean, there's a few things, really. I mean, one of the things that I've written about a lot in the past is about, um, character. I, I think, um, in the past, well, ever since Aristotle, really, you know, 2000 plus years ago, people have been trying to figure out the secrets of story. And the only way you really, up until recently, you could do that is by getting all the stories that work and comparing them and seeing what works. And then say, "Well, all these stories that work, you know, this happens, and then this happens, and then this happens." And then so what you end up with is this kind of recipe, this kind of plot recipe. And so people have these various ideas about, "This is the, you know, there's the, there's the hero's journey, the Joseph Campbell recipe, there's the, um, Save the Cat recipe, there's John York's Into the Woods recipe." You know, this is recipes. And so that, that, that makes people think about plot a lot. You know, "I'm going to, if I, if I have these kind of events in this, in this order, I'm going to get a bestseller. I'm going to get a, um, you know, blockbusting movie." Um, but what that misses is character.

And, and I, and I argue that character is actually much more, you can't really, they're both really essential, but character is much more important than plot. And I think it's character that makes amazing stories, you know, really amazing. Our most memorable stories, stories that mean the most to us, are the ones with the most memorable characters.

Well, let's dive in. So, what makes for a good character? So, the way I, um, think about character and the way I teach designing character in my workshops, um, is to begin with a very, very simple idea, um, of what your kind of character stands for. So, you can think about the brain as this machine for controlling the world. That's what we're all trying to do. I mean, that's what every living thing is trying to do, trying to control the world in order to get what they want. Um, um, and so every human has this kind of set of ideas, um, that kind of dictates their behavior such that they kind of get what they want. So, if you would take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, 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take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say, take, say,

You think about these things as you're just going about your life and you're at the pub with your friends and you know, you're having a pint or something. You're telling a story like how do these ideas show up in terms of your very practical reality? Practical reality.

I I think they're really important for mental well-being, psychological well-being. I mean, they've changed the way that I see myself um and my life and deal with my problems because when I when when I'm anxious or depressed, I think, okay, so what's the problem? Is it survival? Is it connection? Or is it status? I love that. And it's always one of those things. Wow. Always one of those things.

You know, with status, you got to understand it in the broadest sense. It's like, is it something in my career? Have I had some rejections? Have I had a [ __ ] comment on Amazon or whatever? You know, what it might be. But status is also, is my political team doing badly? Have I read something on on social media that attacks my my team and makes me, you know, so so that's a status thing, too. And so what I find in my personal life is that if I'm having a normal bad day, I've got I've got a problem in one of those things. Maybe I'm feeling sick. That's a survival thing. Maybe I've had an argument with my wife. That's a connection thing. But if I'm starting to get really depressed, there's a problem in two of those buckets. Wow. Or or more. So, it's really changed the way that I I understand my own mental health because it's it's it's 100% correct all of the time that when you're feeling [ __ ] you've got a problem in in in one of those buckets probably. And if you're feeling really bad, probably more than one of those buckets, like the really bad times, maybe you're physically sick, maybe you've you're feeling lonely and disconnected, and maybe your career is going badly. I mean, that's, you know, that that's a recipe for for really significant psychological problems because it's hitting all three of those sort of measures of well-being the brain has.

I want to talk about the pacing of stories cuz one of the things that I've picked up from you is that basically if you talk to people, like if you ever meet someone who was in an accident, what do they always say? Well, the car started flipping and it was like time slowed down. Yeah. and I saw this and I saw this and I saw this and I saw this and they'll tell the story and there'll be a little bit of information for the entire day leading up. Then there'll be a lot of information like the four or five seconds and they'll often just remember it so vividly and then there'll be a little bit of information after. All this is to say that our the way that we process reality is during these peak suspenseful moments, the information density of what we remember goes way up. Yeah. And I think the same thing happens when people are telling stories that that's one of the ways that you communicate that this is an important moment is you put in a higher density of information and time seems to slow down. Yeah, I like that information density. That's a lovely way of putting it. That's exactly right. So, you know, so when we're in a car accident, we we we we, you know, the brain speeds up. We we process a lot of information and time seems to slow down to give us more of a chance to react and kind of get ourselves out of that situation. And that's how it should be in storytelling, too, you know. Um the slow bits of life should be told fast and the fast bits of life should be told slow. That's that's the general rule in in in how to make great stories.

And I you know, I find this too when I'm because I I'm a ghost writer, too. So, I write I write books for other people. And what I'm always doing when I'm working with clients writing their story, their life stories is saying, "Let's make it a moment. Let's make it a moment." So I'm I'm looking for scenes in their life when they have had some kind of change or when they have learned something and you need to and and I'm always saying, well, we need to make that a moment. And what that what what I mean by that is by by making it a scene. So, I want to know all the information in extreme detail, specific what you were wearing, what was the weather like, what did you have for breakfast, you know? So, so, so, so, so, so it's the same thing. You're kind of slowing that. You're figuring out what are these moments of change that are really important in the story. You're always looking for moments of change. And when you've got an important moment of change, you kind of slow it down um and and you know, make it this sort of dramatic, very detailed moment in the story. And it signals to the to the to the reader obviously this is this is important. And if it, you know, if it is a moment of change where they've learned something important or something has happened that's changed their life in some way, then you have to, that is a moment that should be in the story.

And now when you're writing your books, how much of it is you're thinking at the beginning of, hey, we're going to make a map of where things are going to go. This what the book is all about. And how much of it is sort of I'm going to write and kind of see what emerges and then I'm going to maybe do a reverse outline after I have a first draft. I'm going to look at that, outline it. So how much of it is sort of this orderly planning versus sort of spontaneity? I'm a very very much ordinary like a planning person. I come from a my family's engineers. So yeah, I'm very much a planning person. like I like I I want to know how it all works in my head quite in quite some detail before I get going because I want to know how the character changes and I want to know where the big the big moments are and I want to know what the midpoint is and yeah like like I I don't understand like I know that a lot of writers like to just start with a blank page and see where their imag imagination takes them but that's just for me an invitation to to sort of chaos because you you you are almost certainly going to have to be rewriting and rewriting and rewriting and throwing away loads of stuff that doesn't fit like so so I get that some people more naturally work like that but it the idea just gives me the gives me the shivers the he [ __ ] hell yeah I mean I actually did a I did I went on a on a on a writing course last year arvon is a very prestigious got a literary writing course because I was just interested to to hear what very literary storytellers had to say about writing and one of them whose name I won't mention was writing their second novel had a very celebrated first novel, lots of awards, and she was just just kept talking about how agonizing that she was finding the process of writing her second novel, and you could see it was tearing her to bits and and and these were the kinds of people that would look at what we're talking about, plot structures and plans, and thinking, "Oh, oh, no, I just I'm an artist. I'm a creator, right?" And I was just think I didn't say it because it's just, but I just thinking, man, just just read one of these books. It will change your life, you know? Figure out plot. Um, figure out how plots work. um you know so so yeah I I think I I my feeling is a lot of writers because they they're wed to this very silly idea that thinking about plot and craft is low status and artificial uh and that that a true artist only ever starts with a blank page. I think it causes a lot of um heartache for these writers. That's my that's my feeling.

Yeah. I think a lot of people think that if they master the basics and really understand technique and what's going on, then it's going to end up diluting their work. And one of the ways that this a very simplistic model of history, you see this a lot in painting that it used to be that people just studied the masters and tried to copy the masters and what you had was a kind of lack of originality. And right now we're in a section of art, an era of art where people reject the masters and they go for high originality. But really what you want is the synthesis of the two. Yeah. Where what you've done is you've studied the masters. You've really looked at them and you've said, "Okay, what are they doing? What is their technique?" And then over time you end up developing your own style. Yeah. And it's just one of the things that has surprised me the most. We look at people like Picasso, people like Monae, and we see, wow, their their their styles are so distinct and different. But if you actually go back and look at their early styles, Picasso and Monae were both painting like hyper realism and it's very strange. And I think that this gets at exactly what you're saying when it comes to stories and actually learning from the masters is people look at the latestage work that people end up making. They say, "Oh my goodness, it's so distinct." While not seeing all the work that came into that, which was just really a form of apprenticeship.

Exactly. and and and I think in every other art form there's an acceptance that you that craft is important. So if you want to be a dancer, if you want to paint, you need to first learn your craft. But in storytelling for some reason in especially for for literary storytellers, they they tend to reject that yeah that idea for some reason. And and actually the the irony is they're still doing that thing because they they tend to be reading large volumes of other people's work and of course subconsciously they're absorbing those rules anyway. So I think when they write and it does work often you see there there is structure in there um that that is often very similar to structures that that people write about in books like mine or you know the hero's journey or into the woods or say the cat um but they've just absorbed it almost like subconsciously because they've read so much storytelling. Um so so so yeah I think it's I I just think it's a state I think it's I think it's snobbery. I think it's I think I think it's silly and and I and I think a lot of as I say a lot of these writers who are struggling um could would really benefit from from from just having the humility to just learn some craft because you know the the model that I talk about the the five model beginning you know this is me and it's not working it's so broad you know it's such a basic kind of broad structure that you can build almost anything off it I mean and the other thing to say about that five structure is that it's um it's different for literary works so if you want complete character transformation like Jaws or Godfather is the examples that I've used talking about these five acts then use the five acts because um really commercial storytelling you see a full character transformation at the beginning of Jaws um he is terrified of the water at the end of the Jaws he's swimming quite happily through this shark infested ocean giggling about how he used to be scared of the water right um but in literary story that's not what happens it tends to be just act one and two of that of that thing so in literary storytelling you just don't often see that huge character transformation information. So in the in the remains of the day you've got this is me and it's not working you've got is there another way and then um literally in the last I think paragraph or maybe like few few sentences of that novel there's a hint that he might he might change you know I think he even said something like maybe there is another way of seeing the world you know and that's literally storytelling and it's and it's literary because it's more realistic in real life it's very unusual for somebody to go from being phobic of the water to destroying sharks you know it's just not what happens. It's what we want to see, but it's not what happens. So even literary storytellers could could use these structures in in a way that is literary because because you know act one, act two, and a bit of act three, that's that's real life. And so so that's when we're reading in inverted almost high quality literature, that's what it's trying to reflect. It's not giving us this Hollywood um transformational perfect, you know, perfect transformation story. It's just saying this is this is a reflection of what real life is like.

How much does what you're saying line up with more ancient kinds of stories, things like the Aztecs or the Incas, like whatever it is, how much how consistent is this throughout history, or is this more like a western thing of the last 2,000 years? That's much more of a kind of a recent um kind of thing really. Um I think a lot of Western storytelling goes back to kind of ancient Greek, you know, myths, as I said before, like the idea of this like powerful hero going out there and yeah, you know, fighting monsters and coming back with boons and all that stuff. is very is a kind of is is a very western thing. Um so so so yeah I mean it certainly goes back to the roots of um western European storytelling for sure. I mean you know I think I think the earliest the earliest story we know is Beaolf which is 11. So true. Yeah. And that's basically Jaws as has been documented by Christopher Booker in the seven basic plots. He begins his book by by saying bear wolf is Jaws but a thousand years ago. So so so yeah these these kinds of stories have been around for a very long time and and and and it's say it's because um we you know part of the the evolutionary purpose of story singing is telling us how to survive as a human being and what human beings want is survival connection and status. So stories that tell us how to get survival connection status are naturally interesting to us because we we relate to the person that the story is about um that they are their survival or their connection or their status is imperiled in some way. So we we begin to worry about them and we begin to be be interested in how they're going to fix this problem. It's fundamental to human life and human behavior to be interested in these kinds of these stories because they teach us how to be a human being.

And how much of what's happening in stories is a battle between the conscious and the unconscious? Because if you meet someone, so often they'll say, "I want this thing." Yeah. And then you'll ask them, "What's going on?" And then you'll take a step back and they'll actually realize there's all these unconscious desires that have been driving them. Yeah. So I think I think that's a really interesting thing that happens in in lots of storytelling. like um I I think our job as the storyteller is to understand those unconscious unconscious things. Um and what what often happens in storytelling is that that the the character themselves is kind of oblivious to that stuff. Like I mean very often it's very unlikely for a character to to understand explicitly that they want status for example or they want connection. There are lots of sort of times in story where the kind of subconscious reality is revealed to the character and and that can be a very kind of profound and moving Yeah. um moment where they suddenly understand something really important about themselves. um in the Sons of Story Setting. One of my favorite TV series of recent history is um Transparent, which was the show on Amazon Prime that won loads of Emmys and Laughters about um um uh what happened to a family whose father transitioned to a female and um there there's a really brilliant scene um in there where the where the son who's, you know, he's not woke, but he's progressive, you know, he's he's um he's totally up for his father's transition and he's cool and he works in the music industry, but he just starts losing his [ __ ] about nothing in particular and and you can tell he's just breaking down and and he just, you know, breaks down points, you know, nothing's making sense. Nothing's adding up. And you can see, you know, it's really powerful because you can see his conscious story that he's telling himself is, "I'm fine. Everything's fine. I'm happy with my dad." Um, and then and and then there's a very moving scene where where where someone says to him, "Have you mourned the death of your father?" And he says, "Oh, you're not supposed to say stuff like that. He's not dead." and he said, "Yeah, but have you mourned the death of your father?" And he breaks down in tears. I mean, it's really it's really I'm getting choked up talking about it because it's really moving. Um, and it's, you know, really brave of the writers, you know, it was written in a kind of a slightly pre-woke era, so you could actually be a bit more honest about these subjects. And it was really showing that this guy was really consciously trying was convinced his theory of control is I'm just going to be everything's great, everything's fine. But unconsciously, he was broken. And he was broken because in transitioning effectively his father was dead. He didn't have a father anymore. And that was you know and that was causing all this kind of corruption and disruption in his life. So you know that's to me that's amazing storytelling. It's deep. It's rich. It's profound. It's brave. Um uh yes you know it's fantastic.

I I think that's something you see a lot in the modern world just in terms of how people go about their lives. Yeah. You know, if you talk to people who have some sort of manic obsessive behavior where what they're doing is they're compensating for something that they didn't have or some sort of loss that they never grieved. And you know, you hear all the time of somebody goes to therapy or whatever it is and they say, "Oh my goodness, for the last 30 years I've been compensating for this thing and I didn't even realize I was doing that." And um I think that that would be another layer that I would if I was designing a character that I would think through is where is there a disconnect between almost like the simplicity of what they say they're going for? Like a lot of times we'll really simplify our motivations. Oh, I just want money, but like actually this thing happened when you were a kid. You were abused by your dad or you grew up really poor and you had a conversation with your dad and you said, "Hey, are we really poor?" And dad says, "No, no, no, son." But then you have this like conflict or whatever and your whole life becomes a compensation for that. But a lot of times that just happens at this very primal intuitive subconscious level. Absolutely. And so I when I'm teaching I call this origin damage. It's like good to figure out when you've got your character in their broken view of the world. Say you're Harry and you believe that men and women can't really be friends because sex always gets in the way. It's good to have an idea of where did he get that idea from. But the interesting thing is you don't actually have to put that in your story. I look it's enough that you can know and um when I was researching the sons of storytelling I actually read interestingly that Shakespeare was what was was the pioneer of doing this. So it's quite well known that Shakespeare's plays were just based on it was just cut and pasting stuff that was out there already. Yeah. He was just really good at putting it together. Yet another guy who knew the literature well, you know. Yeah. But but but but but but very often in in in the in the stories that that he based his plays on, it would tell you why why Kingley had you know was behaving in this kind of crazy way and why you know what had happened in his background. But but um you know why Hamlet was this you know was behaving in this particular way. But Shakespeare took all that stuff out. Oh wow. And by taking all that stuff out, he he create like you have this effect of creating characters that are just much more interesting because you start thinking well why are they this way? Um so so so I I thought that was sort of fascinating this idea that you that you don't have to put that stuff in the story. Um, you know another example from from recent be the film Shame about a sex addict but like we never actually find out. Um uh there's a really weird relationship between the Michael FBender character who's the sex addict and his sister and it's almost kind of playing with it slightly in ancestral stuff like a bit like it's a bit weird you never quite work out kind of what it is and it's not actually in the in the play like what happened like why is he a sex addict what's his weirdness with his sister and I've heard that um in the original screenplay that it was in there and and and and the story was that Fastpender's character when he was a kid, he he he heard his sister being sexually abused and he um didn't step in and stop it. And that's what's [ __ ] him up and that's why he's just that's what that's made him deranged. And that the um that was taken out of the that explanation for his character was taken out of the the screenplay which is actually you know brilliant because you you know because you don't need it you know you know when you meet people in real life you don't find out what's this kind of thing that's what's what's their origin damage what's the thing that's created this broken view of the world. So, so, so, so, it's interesting and and and it allows the space for the viewer or the reader to step in and come up with your own ideas and your own theories and your own thoughts about Well, a lot of times just the way life works is you see that somebody's got this flaw and then you see that, whoa, that flaw is actually steering their lives quite a bit. And actually, it's only later on that actually becomes part of the suspense of talking to somebody about what's going on, they end up figuring that out later. So that could even be in a story something that gets revealed later on. Yeah. Yeah.

Let's move into the world of business and the world of leadership and politics and all that sort of stuff. I mean stories are hugely impactful, right? A politician, they get up, they they they need to have a story of where things were, why things have gone wrong, how they're going to improve things. A business, so much of a business is a story. Amazon, we're going to be the world's most customer- ccentric company. It's always day one is a story. It's always day one. Um, how does it show up there? Well, again, it's fundamental. I mean, you got to go right back to the beginning of human evolution to figure out, you know, why do we become this storytelling animal? And the answer is it's again because we are this highly cooperative ape. You know, we're part ape, part. And so, in order to to get all these individual human brains and wire them up together so they're all thinking in the same way so they can cooperate together, you need a story. And and so you know a story about what is good, what is bad, what do we want, how do we get there, you know what kind of what is a good person, what is a bad person, that kind of story. And so when lots of people are kind of absorb that story into their brains, they all start thinking the same way. And that's how human groups all work. So you know, as as you say, Amazon has a story about the world. Um the Democrats and the Republicans both have competing stories of the world. China has a story about what's going on with tariffs and so does Trump and you know like so so all all groups are bound together by story and you know that that's kind of that's kind of what story was originally for was for um enabling us to come together in the form of this kind of collaborative super organism that we we all think it think as one you know you see the effect when we go to the cinema go to the movies and and everybody goes in there as individuals and the film comes on and and you know said they're watching trading cases and then suddenly they're not thinking about their own lives. They're they're they're experienced in the life of Vetty Murphy and Dan Akroyd, you know, in Philadelphia in 1983. That's that's what it is for 90 minutes. And the amazing thing is that the whole audience is is having that experience. So, so all those brains are experiencing the same consciousness and you and you know we have that weird experience sometimes when you leave the movie theater and you kind of got this weird sort of almost like drunkenness where you still you kind of think you're the hero of the movie for a few seconds. It's a weird thing but that's story doing what story is supposed to do which is take over your brain and replace your consciousness with the with this kind of other consciousness and and and usually it's you know the consciousnesses of the group. So when when you go to work into your job and you're identified with your job, you enter the consciousness of the organization. You go, "Right, today I'm not Bob. I'm somebody that works for Amazon and Amazon's business is this and I'm going to make it happen." Yeah.

I was uh talking to a friend who's a investor and he just raised a fund and he's been going to these different conferences and I said, "Hey, what's one of the most surprising things you've learned?" And he said, "You know, it's really weird. Sometimes it's better to actually have worse returns, but to have a really clear story for why your returns will stay consistent. So, he's like, if you can make 15% year-over-year, but you have a really clear story as for why that's going to be versus you make 20% year-over-year, but you're sort of just like, I don't really know how we did it and all that, even if you made more money with the 20, the 20 guy makes more money. the more institutional companies, they want to give their money to the 15 because they actually have a clearer story about why things are going to continue and so you wouldn't expect that. That's like irrational. But story is can be a kind of predictability for people. Yeah, absolutely. Stories is how we you say, you know, it's how we think. It's how we make sense of the world. It's, you know, we are stories. We think in stories. So, if you want to persuade people and convince people, you need to do it with story. You know, facts don't really work logic. you know we we don't really we haven't evolved to to to solve you know to understand the world with algorithm and facts and statistics. We you know we think in stories but we believe in stories. So so it's so important to leaders to groups to have a compelling story to tell about what they're doing as a group and and how that interacts with the world in general. Yeah.

Um, as we begin to close, I want to basically ask, are there things from A Story Is a Deal that you want me to ask you about? Uh, because I haven't read it and I feel like there there there might be stuff there. Yeah. Well, I I think one of the things that um that came out of a story as a deal which could have which is useful to all kinds of storytellers is about how important obstacles and goals are. Oh, cool. And I think that's something that I missed a bit in the science of storytelling because when I sort of you know figured out this thing about how the whole purpose of story really is to um enable cooperation in the form of highly cooperative groups. It explained to me why story is always about obstacles and goals because that's that's that's what story is supposed to be doing. It's it's it's that those human groups, those human collaborative groups that that that we form into, their whole purpose is to overcome obstacles in pursuit of goals. That's what every group is doing. Whether it's about again political groups or cults or religions, you're you're you're coming together as a group to overcome obstac some kind of obstacle in pursuit of some kind of goal. And and and that really is like that's why story is always really about obstacles and goals, you know, you know, because because that that that story is teaching us how how to do that. So I I I think that was that that was sort of a really interesting what's an example of of of how obstacle goals play out. Well, um so for example, the beginning of a movie like Nomad Land, you know, um Academy Award-winning movie before even you've got the opening titled thing saying Nomad Land, you're introduced to this middle-aged woman. There's no words. Um she opens a lockup. You can see all her stuff's in it. Um, she's looking sad. She picks up a a plaid shirt, which we can assume is her partner. So, she smells it deeply. So, we can tell he's he's not there anymore. Um, oh, we're told in a sort of a title card that all the industry in her her um industry in her um area, Nevada, is shut down. So, all the plants have shut down. Um, she closes the thing, she pays the guy who owns the lock up and she drive she drives off in a van into the wilderness. So, you know, with with barely a word spoken, I think she just the guy says, "Thank you. Good luck." With barely a word spoken, we're into the story, you know, already it's well, it's a survival story this one, you know. So, we talk about the the big the themes of stories, survival, connection, and status. This is about pure [ __ ] survival. She's out there. She's out. But, but like and that's the obstacle and the goal. The obstacle is she's got to live now. She's got no money. She's living in a van. She's living in this frozen wilderness. Her husband's gone. That's it, you know? So, so, so, so and that's why it's such a successful movie because, you know, they're not not mcking around these people. You know, as I say, so three minutes barely word spoken. It hasn't even announced it's called Nomad Land yet. You've got your theme survival, you got your obstacle, and you've got your goal. Boom, you're in. So, so, and I think that's what really great storytellers, like even very experienced storytellers sometimes forget that like like when you're reading a a a book or watching a movie and you're feeling confused and irritated, ask yourself, is it because I' it's not clear who wants what and what's standing in the way of getting that thing. Very often that will be why you're bored of the story because it's because the story hasn't made it clear who wants what and what's standing in their way of getting that I think it was Aaron Sorcin who said that at any point in a movie, you should be able to press pause, look at the screen, and say, "Who is this person? What do they want? And what's getting in their way?" Exactly. In fact, I don't quote that exact Aaron talking quote, but I do quote him in that part of the story is a deal. So, so, so, so yeah, he's he's somebody that's spoken about that. But but but what was interesting is find that evolutionary reason as to why and that's because the whole point of story is to fuse human brains together to get them working in the as part of a cooperative group and the point of the cooperative group is to overcome the obstacles in pursuit of the goal of you know living a successful life. That's what story is for. It's about solving problems the problems of survival connection status. So yeah, that that that really um punched up that idea in my head of Yeah, obstacles and goals is a really important fundamental of storytelling. Yeah. Yeah. And it's fractal. The character has an obstacle and a goal for their life, but also all the individual scenes do, right? So if my goal is I want to make a lot of money. Yeah. And my obstacle is how do I do it? Well, I'm going to go to business meetings. I'm going to get lonely sometime. whatever it is. And uh you can be thinking that at all these different levels. That's right. And and and you know, as I'd obviously add that if if your goal is to make loads of money, one of your major obstacles is something's wrong with your personality. Like there's something interior stopping you from making loads of money. So So part of the obst part in really good storytelling, profound storytelling, the major obstacle, one of the, you know, is always going to be your your personality, your character. You've got to you've got to fix something in yourself that's stopping you achieving that wealth that you that you desire. So so so that so that's you know that there's that internal obstacle which I think is really important.

Well, thank you very much. No, thank you David. It was a great pleasure. That was good. Thanks, man. Cool.