Scrambler, Gorilla & the Ethics of Pricing “New” Genes | Antoine - DPR Cold Blood 📱

I got a guaranteed banger for you tonight. I got Antoine from DPR Cold Blood is the guest. Thank you for being here. Let's get right to it. Good evening everybody. I hope that everybody's doing well. Thank you for being here tonight. As I mentioned the in the uh intro there, I got Antoine from DPR Cold Blood on the show tonight. We'll get him on here very very shortly. Um I hope everybody's doing well. We got a little thaw going on here in Minnesota. We got up to 38 today. Might even be able to do some shipping. Might be a good time to check out properroyals.com. Go slashshop. Go right to the ball pythons if you like. No, I hope that you're doing well. It was nice to uh see a little sunshine. It was nice to see something on the ground other than ice and snow. Um I actually scraped off the uh the driveway of the car wash today. It was it was great. I spent uh spent time with customers and uh felt good to to be a part of Civilization for an afternoon.

Uh speaking of being a part of Civilization, this uh weekend, December 21st, is that already it's going to be the 21st on Sunday. Yeah, man. 4 days before Christmas. December 21st, uh this Sunday is the Snake Discovery Show um uh show in Hastings. I will be vending there. And uh especially if you're local, I hope to see you. Even if you're not buying something, come come by, come hang out, come say hi. Uh those shows are awesome. I love being a part of them. And uh I hope to see you there. If you would like to order anything else, purchase anything else, I was, you know, a little flippant earlier, but I meant it. Uh check out um properroyals.com. It is up to date. I actually do have some more stuff coming online that is just I just been busy. I've got uh um in my in my racks I have printed Husbandry Pro cards for the everything that's been entered into Husbandry Pro, but but I have painters tape with Sharpie markers for everything hasn't been entered into Husbandry Pro. And there is a lot of green tape and Sharpie markers. So those will come online and come for sale. uh Patreon gets first dibs and after that they'll be listed on proper royals.com and eventually they'll make their way to you know morph market and and uh other platforms and things like that.

Before we go uh too far tonight um brought to you ad free this evening by Palm Street. Uh if you haven't checked out Palm Street, it's a live streaming app. You can interact just as I'm interacting with you all right now, except even more so because the sales platform is integrated and you are welcome to sell reptiles there, which is great. Uh you don't have to use a little emoji to say something's for sale like a little airplane or you know some weird code. So go check out uh Palm Street app uh palmre.app, download the app, apply to start selling and start building your business today.

Um, Antoine at DPR is uh legitimately one of my favorite people in the industry. Uh, first he's been very gracious towards me uh in person on the show in business, but um, and we're going to talk about all the cool stuff that he does. I'll give you a little something behind the scenes. Um, and I had to keep some of the details private because it was, you know, it was a business deal between uh two people, but um, I had the opportunity to acquire uh, some beautiful snakes that uh, were at a very fair agreed upon price and um, we had the chance to work a little bit in person together uh, at Tinley and I'll just say that things worked out very very well and he was exceptionally he was kind to me which is Cool. Um, but to me, I found that I found a certain honesty in the way that he does business. And that's not to say other people aren't. Um, but there were people in that room that would have paid a whole lot more and he had already made a deal with me on the valuation and the pricing. And uh, anyway, all that stuff really adds up. And I think that that's the kind of like reputation that you can't buy and it's worth so much more than anything that you can buy. So what I'm saying is I'm happy to have Antoine here. I hope I can at the very least return a slight favor to him by giving a little promotion and platform tonight. So please uh as a favor to me go check out DPR Cold Blood wherever you can find him. Morph Market, Instagram, all of that kind of stuff. But do that after the show.

Uh, so, uh, let's go ahead and, uh, bring him back because there's nothing like awkward like listening to somebody talk about you in the green room. Um, and I'm going to do my very best uh, French Canadian accent. Please welcome back to the proper royal stage, Antoine Sagan from Montreal, Quebec, Canada. By the way, if you haven't been, one of my favorite cities in the world. I would go tomorrow if I could. Antoine, how are you, sir?

>> How's it going, brother?

>> I am very good. It's good to see you. Thanks for being on the show.

>> Likewise. It's a pleasure, man.

>> Ah, thanks. Thanks. Oh, you know what? I didn't do the full Maya. I screwed up so bad. I booked two people on the same night like two weeks ago and Antoine was one of them. Talk about gracious to me, man. He says, "No sweat. We'll do it in a couple weeks." I was like, "What? This is Oh, I thought I was in a pickle." And it was like

>> with 20 minutes before the show, too. I was like, "Oh, man. Am I going to get this link to get on the show at some point? Or maybe things have slipped or something? And I'm I'm glad it worked out for you. I mean, it's better to be double booked than under booked and then the two guests are not there and then, you know.

>> That's true. That's true,

>> man. I as a uh I I play music professionally. I've been double booked as a musician when both of us show up. And that's the worst when the bar owner's like, "Uh, well, one of you is going to get paid or not." Or I mean, the good bar owner goes, "I'm going to pay you both if if you'll both play, fine. If one of you, whatever." But,

>> uh, thank you.

>> I don't want to interrupt, but somebody says, uh, it's my best friend's birthday tomorrow. If they would find it valuable to hear happy birthday from Proper Royals. Well, happy birthday. Uh,

>> happy birthday,

>> Pinkasav. I feel like I'm getting a I don't know. I'm not familiar with Picasaw, but uh Redfire, uh happy birthday. I trust that uh you're asking that in good faith. So, happy birthday. And uh thanks for tuning in. I'll be I'll be happy to say happy birthday.

All right. Uh man, you've been uh about a year now. You you you were on the show before. You're back.

>> you got a little mustache. I haven't seen that. So that that's new since Tinley, huh?

>> Dude, I'm trying so hard. Those They don't grow. I'm trying my best and I'm very happy because I have one side here that's growing a little bit more. Usually it's like the German famous guy.

>> Oh yeah, don't do that. Yeah. Yeah, you can't do that.

>> Not, but that's naturally how it grows and um I'm trying to get something a little better going on and it's really difficult. So, thanks for acknowledging it. It really makes me feel good.

>> Okay. Now, what does uh what does Emily think about uh this uh this development here?

>> She doesn't she doesn't mind it because it's it can't really grow. Let's put it that way.

>> So, it's just a little nuisance that's uh forever there versus a presence.

>> Yeah. Yeah. The the the funny thing is we had a discussion about this yesterday coming back from the gym. I was like, I'll I'll try to grow it and she's like, I don't care because you can't grow it. So, all right. Thanks for making me feel good. So,

>> thank you for being a good sport. I mean it all in good fun. And uh and uh look, man, if if you could grow that, I get I get this little thing down here. for 25 years, people have been asking me what's underneath there. I'm like, I don't know. I haven't shaved it in that long. So, I wish I wish you well on it.

>> Um, how things been in the past year for you? You feeling good? You in a good place?

>> It's been good. It's been really good. Um you know it's it's uh as the business is growing there's new challenges that are that are arriving every year and and from different aspects of the business from maintenance from having now employees from uh getting ready to move to a new facility to having more animals to producing more of my own rodents to making shows of my own to shipping more internationally and relying more on that. So there's there's so many different things that are happening at the same time and I feel like um I am still trying to get everything down into a schedule and into like a um not a routine but get everything more dialed in. Um, so hopefully in the next year that's going to be the challenge. Um, that's going to be the objective actually to get everything more dialed in. Yes. everything this year felt kind of hectic all the time and and so yeah that that's definitely going to be the the the objective for next season but I mean it's it's all good things right the growing business is definitely um

>> more problems but good problems to to solve at the end of the day

>> yeah and um I had planned I was going to start the show on like scrambler gorilla cantaloupe but what you just said is like a whole show we'll get to that other stuff in just a Um, talk.

So, the last time you were on, you were talking about uh either and I I apologize. I can't remember if it was acquiring, building, renting, taking over, but a new facility. Are you But it sounds like Are you not there yet? You're what's

>> No, I'm I'm still in the same facility uh shared with NBK Reptiles.

>> Correct. Yeah.

>> Um that's the place that we had the floods um for two years in a row. We haven't had any last year, but for two years in a row, we had floods. Um, and it's just there's no internet connection. It's a really old basement. Like, it's functional, but I'm really really excited for the next step. Um, and it's going to be a brand new build, but it's something that I'm renting. So, to make a long story short, because it is a very long story, um, NBK, he's partnered with, uh, a few companies in Montreal that own the largest wholesaler company, uh, of pet supply in Canada. uh not dogs and cats, but like every reptiles, fish, uh rodents, and whatnot. They're the largest uh company, MSR Emporium. And um so two companies that were competitors merged last year, and I was working for Murdo Importations uh with NBK and the other company is owned by my uh girlfriend's brother.

>> Okay.

>> So, it's all like very family related. And since I was already in uh you know their I guess uh installations with DPR um I had discussions with them and they're building a new place and they're including me a 1500 square foot uh square feet um foot feet man. My French accent can't it's complicated.

>> How many how many uh square meters we talking here?

>> No I can't. It's going to be in feet. 1500 something.

>> Okay. All right. All right. Yeah. Okay.

>> Um and uh yeah, and the construction has started last month. So, originally it was supposed to be for 2027. Now, it's going to be for hopefully fall 2026. So, that's in less than a year. So, that's really really exciting for me.

>> That is. And I'm uh I'm going off the top of my head here, but I think you had talked about being in basically a 25 200 square foot uh facility or space. That's yours with uh in NBK's space.

>> Uh right now it used to be about 200. Now it's about 600 something with the new room I have in the the incubator and the rodents. Uh so I'm still doubling up that. So it's going to be the it's going to be 1583

>> actually. So,

>> my first home, which actually is the home I moved out of to move here, uh was 1,580 square ft without the garage. So, that's a lot of that's a lot of space, though, man.

>> It is.

>> And even And that's triple what you have. And And

>> I don't know about you, but like

>> I always think I could squeeze a little more into what I got, although I'm pretty packed, but I mean that's probably like the potential is probably greater than triple then, huh?

>> Yeah. So, right now everything is very tight. Uh I'm I'm I sold a lot of adults this year to just make sure to not overdo it and keep too many animals and just have too much going on at the same time. Um, so in there there's going to be the rodents. Um, there's going to be obviously the ball pythons incubator, a hatchling room, a hatchling room, and uh a office as well

>> because um where I am right now there's no connection and whatnot. And it's it's really like just taking care of the animals. And the main issue for me to create content and to be really available online is that I film and then I go back home and then I do my edits and I I do my stuff. But when I go back home, I arrive and there's thousand things to do here as well. And it's always so complicated. Um, and I really want to focus on when I get to the shop, I can work with my animals, film some content, edit, post, do everything related at work, and then when I go back home, I can be at home and that's it. So, that's really what I'm looking forward to. And I feel like I'll be a lot more efficient uh regarding producting, you know, videos and and and reals and whatever. Um, I I've been slacking on a little bit that like the content is there, but on Instagram, I haven't been that much on it. I just feel like it's creeping in on me so much. The dread of of always having to go back home, do all the edits and and posting from home and then this and that and it's it's too much. So, I'm just really excited for that next step.

>> Man, I I understand completely. I I don't know how much you followed my story. December 6th last year, shortly after you were on, I purchased a car wash and converted one of the bays into my reptile and rodent facility. and everything that you're describing, I completely understand where you're like, I got to get my systems and my processes down. Um, where's the WD40? Is it at the facility or is it at the old facility in the garage? Where where's my uh channel locks because of the maintenance or man, I needed this one part and I bought it yesterday, but I left it in a bag when I unloaded it at the house.

>> H it's maddening. like it I just want it took me like you're saying about a year to get where it's like okay now I feel like I'm functioning and now I could feel like I can refine I could go from functioning to like efficient.

>> Um, you're uh obviously in Canada and there's this time of year there's not a whole lot of warm places in Canada and I know this because

>> where I'm at in Minnesota is actually about 90 miles north of Toronto. So, probably flirting with where you're at latitude wise in Montreal. How are you going to heat this place? How's that look? Like I I love like learning about these facilities logistics. How you heating the place?

>> So, interestingly enough, I don't have too much information as of now. Um they So, so the heating the heating system is going to be part of the rest of the building.

>> Yeah.

>> Um, the problem that I'm running into now that I'll have to figure out is there's uh the the the ceiling is 26 feet high.

>> Holy I don't curse on here much. 20 That's three stories high, Antoine.

>> Yeah, I know. So,

>> it's all gonna go. Yeah.

>> Yeah, it's super super high. So, I have the option obviously to build a mezzanine um and have like a a roof underneath that. Uh or I do like a false ceiling and I and I figure something out there.

>> I have a buddy of mine who also keeps ball pythons and he works he has his construction business. So um I'll be able to where happens. But as of now like I don't have too much information. I have more information for ventilation and stuff like that. But as far as heating I it's mostly part of the rest. Um, I went and bought a big generator today, bigger than what I need for the current facility in, you know, provision of the fact that when I'm going to move, I'm going to need a bigger, um, generator. So, few things here and there, but, uh, it's it's mostly going to be when it's close to be done, I'll figure that part out.

>> Gotcha. And the generator, that's backup or you run off of a generator?

>> No, no, it's just backup.

>> Backup. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Good.

>> Yeah. 11,00 watts and uh it's a bigger one than I need, but it's

>> like I I've had experiences in the past where you know you you're closer to the the margin of the generator and then it shuts on you and you're stuck in a

>> Well, yeah, especially with heat stuff like when they kick on those things spike. Like even just my my room thing, it's rated 1500 watts. I have toasted thermostats rated much higher than that for right when it kicks on kind of deal.

>> Um,

>> so the uh you said the heat is part of the bigger thing. Do you think it's the floor like the floor radiant heat or central heat?

>> It's not going to be floor. It's going to be uh it's going to be air flow within

>> Oh wow. Okay.

>> From from the other part right beside me is going to be a fish section. So I assume that the the air is going to be quite uh at like it's not going to be dry air which is

>> Yeah. You get the That'll be good to offset it. Yeah. I forgot the four stairs. So, mine's the the radiant floor heat.

>> Yeah.

>> I can't believe it. I'm actually pumping humidity and heat out as we speak in December in Minnesota. I'm pumping heat and humidity out.

>> Pretty good thing to do though. It's I mean, you you better have that than too dry and too cold, right? So,

>> Oh, yeah. I'm I'm amazed and I'm happy with it. I'm like, "All right." you know, cuz now I have the rodents and the the the snakes under one roof, so that's a lot of animals exhaling humidity um and and putting off heat. But um yeah, it's a nice problem. I never thought it would be the problem to have. I'm each day like we just went I'm sure you guys too. We just went through brutal to me brutal. I'm from Florida, but you know 12 and 13 Fahrenheit below zero. Uh to me brutal temperatures and like I kept turning the floor heat down. I'm like it's too hot. Like I'm like it's it stayed at 81. I'm like go three degrees colder, Adam. Keep going three degrees cold. I turned it down three degrees today too. So anyhow

>> crazy.

>> Yeah, it is crazy. Um that's neat about the fish though. That's going to help uh immensely uh with the forced air uh fighting that humidity, I think. Okay,

>> I'm curious to see how that's going to turn out.

>> And hopefully I managed to get some really good like I lost you there.

>> I lost you. I don't know if it's on me or on you. I I uh I admit

>> I don't know.

>> Either way, it doesn't matter.

>> That matters is that we're back on.

>> That's right. So, uh, you said that you're interested to see and then I heard you cut out a little bit.

>> Yeah, I'm I'm really curious. Like I really want to do like a a step by step of me moving into that facility, like leaving the previous one, uh, going to the new one, setting it up, and everything that's going to come into like setting that facility up because obviously I'm going to do tons and tons of mistakes. Um, and yeah, Peter just did a new facility, so definitely um, that's that's someone I have to call. 100%. Um, I had some talk with uh with Justin when I visited him last year um pretty much same time last year on the placements of the rooms and and like the workflow. He really got it super dialed down when it came to um his efficiency of uh least amount of steps to the places you go the most often within your facility. Um, so all things that I I really want to consider because right now in the facility it's the workflow and efficiency is brutal. Everything is like at far end and it's narrow and it's there's a door there for absolutely no reason and it it's it's super inconvenient. So for all those reasons, I'm really excited and I I really want to document the the whole uh the whole process because I mean it's it's not every year that you can move to a new facility. Not everybody has the chance to do it. So, it's um it's going to be a great learning experience for me.

>> It I know you have an amazing support system around you. If I could be of any help, again, let me know. I've I I did it in Minnesota, so I'm happy to share.

>> Absolutely. Especially Especially for the rodents. You have a pretty good a pretty cool setup for the rodents, so I'm I'm 100% gonna hit you up for that.

>> Oh, cool. Thank you. I appreciate that. And uh uh a warm welcome to uh Peter as well. I got to hang out with him a little bit in Toronto uh last time. No, I saw you since Toronto. I saw you in Tinley, but uh just before Tinley, I got to hang out with Peter a little bit as well. U so I'd love to have him on the show one day, too. So, we have to catch up. But um man, exciting. Like say I love figuring that stuff. Like we all breed snakes. We all got something we're excited about snakes. I'm like, tell me about the facility. I want to learn that.

>> Absolutely. Absolutely.

>> It's exciting thing. like we all have snakes, but the other things that come around it is is is very exciting.

>> And especially as um as we grow and I I stumbled there because I felt awkward using the pronoun we. I'm like, "Hell yeah, I'm growing. I'm doing that, too. This is cool." So, yeah, I'm excited. Not to I'm at 480 square feet. But, um it's it's mine and I'm happy with it. So, uh, you said one interesting thing I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more about because I hear people are either at different ends of the spectrum. So, you said, "I'm going to figure that out when I get there." Talking about the heat.

>> Yeah.

>> No. Well, now you're rolling your eyes. Like, I think uh I think there's a lot of value in that, but I don't want to sway your thoughts. Tell me about how you approach things where like other people might be losing sleep and you go, "I'm going to figure it out." How's that play in the process a little bit?

>> So, there's two part to this. Um, first is uh the like the biggest aspect of all that is um I'm not the one doing the construction of the building. I'm in talk with the whole team that is doing it. But technically speaking, they build a spot, I get in, and then if there's any changes I want to do, I adapt.

>> Sure. So, some of it is beyond you can't control what you can't control. So that that's that's the stoic's thing. Just don't worry about it then when you can't control.

>> So like you're going to build the rooms like I planned and everything. And then in the rodent they haven't planned for the where the fans are going to be to kick the air out. Well, I'm going to have my my uh my guy do the you know the holes for the fans and it's going to be there and and that's it. So if there's any changes or any uh major things, it's going to be done afterwards. Um, so as far as not being too concerned in figuring out when I get there, it's mostly because I'm not the one um behind that build. It's not like it's like a facility that I'm building in my backyard where I'm 100% behind everything. There's even if I if I said like, "Oh, here I want to have my floor heated." They'd be like, "Okay, we'll deliver." And then you figure it out on yourself afterwards.

>> Yeah. Well, I was going to ask, so does it does does that do you find yourself in that mindset more I mean outside of just this scenario or was that comment kind of aimed specifically at this scenario?

>> Oh, no. I'm I'm 100% will uh we'll figure it out like we'll cross the river when we get there. Like 100% I'm I have no stress tattoo on my leg. And to me that's that's really like it's a moto. It's like that's what life is. Like you can think about things a thousand times, but you really deal with it when it happens. Obviously, you want to be able to prevent things like we buy a generator. I have water pumps. We want to have >> we want to have backups. We want to be prepared, but the the thing is there's things you can't control and I I'm not going to lose sleep over things I can't control. So, right now it's like build is underway. it's gonna happen. And then if there's a few things to change there when I arrive, well, we'll deal with it then and and we'll change it.

>> Good for you, man. I It's something I strive for, but I don't have as heavy of a dose of the gene as you do on the uh the no like I I like I say, I I strive for it and it it it was something that actually really kind of messed with with me and my life in I don't know, late 20s, early 30s. I just said, "Man, I'm going absolutely insane." And I I finally just had to say

>> if you can't control it and you can't do anything about it, go on. And then and also actually for anybody listening, I think I like say Antoine I think kind of has this down. I look back at all the crap that I've worried about

>> that never came to fruition. Like most of the crap we worry about is just that, you know? So um that's why I kind of caught I was like I'm gonna ask him about this. We're gonna we're gonna learn a little more. So thanks for indulging me uh on that. I I'll give you a good example of that. We had um we had a power outage two winters ago

>> and uh the uh in the incubator everything got put on the generator and then the um the heater in the incub actually no the thermostat in the incubator failed and I didn't realize. So I went back home the next day I arrived and um uh it was 14 degrees Celsius in the incubator. I don't know what it is in Fahrenheit, but it's pretty cold.

>> That's really cold. Yeah,

>> it's it's really cold and um obviously, you know, like you're you could be super worried and be like, "Oh my gosh, I have so many clutches and if it's going to go bad and like what control do you have over this situation?"

>> Yeah.

>> You had control before it didn't work. Now, what what control can you do? Slowly bring a tent back up and you live with it. All clutches were fine. All animals were fine. Like I could have had bad blood for a month and a half until those babies came out and it's just like well we'll take it as it goes and you know when it happens and we're good. So the animals were fine and it it is those things where you worry too much it makes your life miserable. It's it's it's really a matter of right now things are good things are good. We'll see we'll see when when it if a [ __ ] arrived we'll see there.

>> Yeah we'll see it there. I I take it a little bit or my personal strategy is a little bit of um if I can't stop worrying, then it's time to get to work. Okay, you're gonna worry, do something about it. Uh or go learn or do something about something else that will e you know, ease my mind.

>> Um, interesting. You said uh you brought them up slowly. Uh how'd you do that? What was the like um was it over

>> four hours? Was it over four days?

>> Over 12 hours. I I got the temperature slowly like on the thermostat. I got them like to reach a lower temperature then a couple hours there a bit of a higher temperature. You don't want to have if you have temp fluctuation. I I mean it's it's not science that like I've read anywhere. It's just something that just made sense to me. When you have like a cold animal um after shipping, you don't want to put it in a rack,

>> right?

>> No shock. Same with fish, right? you put the when you get new fish into your tanks, you put them in, you let them the water acclimate to the to your tank. So, I that's why I did the same.

>> Nothing I've read anywhere, but it's just something that made sense to me to just do it gradually over it and just kicking the heat back on and and frying them potentially.

>> Yeah. No, I think it's great insight and I think in in most people's moment of panic, they would be like, "This thing's got to crank as fast as possible. We got to move this thing." And and that's uh that that's that's why I asked. That's good insight on that.

Um, what's We talked a lot about Gorilla last episode, but it's been a year. What uh what'd you learn in the past year? Did you get some cool uh new combos? What do you see about it? What do you think about it? What's going on with Gorilla?

>> I learned that dinkers are complicated again, man. There's there's no easy way around it. It's still the same damn thing. It's like you think you know something and then you hatch a clutch and you're like, "Ah, more of a head scratcher now." and it's just more questions all the time. Um, definitely we had some good results this year. I think uh where I'm a bit more annoyed with gorilla this season is that we bred some of our really dark stuff like the blackhead gorilla headantic the GHR gorilla that we had and some of them are with hats. So, one of them is hatet lavender and you know as just as much as I do some of the hats can play a part influencing colors and saturation and patterns

>> and it's like man I want to understand these genes better if I'm if I'm in a position to sell some high value animal to someone I want to be able to fully understand what I'm selling and having those little tweaking factors with it really really annoys me because I want to be able to see it properly really like those jeans those jeans I'm working with gorilla cantaloupe um they're subtle jeans in terms of it's not a pinstripe a bamboo a cosmos like it's not a

>> visually right in your face morph so there's more subtle genes that will play a important role in the long terms when you combo stack but as of just you know breeding them like that I want to be able to understand it properly so I feel like it's um I've I have I have answers and then more questions at the same time. So, it's a it's it's still a work in progress for sure. But, I'm really excited for the first um visual recessive coming on to 2026. Hopefully, if we hit some like gorilla clowns, that'd be kind of the uh holy grail for us to really start understanding what we work with and then we can we can go from there and and and try to figure out which direction to take it.

How long has it been since you kind of set aside a danker till till now on it? How how much time have you invested in in Guerilla?

>> Uh I guess five years for Gorilla, seven years for cantaloupe. Probably

>> seven on cantaloupe. I didn't realize that. Okay.

>> That's funny myself because I th the those two jeans I don't own as DPR. They're NBK's jeans. So me seven years in cantaloupe but he was working with them five years prior. So we're 12 years into cantaloupe and probably eight years on guerilla.

Man it do you find moments of like feeling like the industry moves so so fast and you can't like catch up or get ahead or stay ahead and then I hear comments like that where you're like where it's like

>> you know what there's so much to be done even on established stuff. It's it all goes back to the work on what makes you what you're passionate about or excites you or whatever. I I think I mean when I when I hear that that's that's the only way I can reconcile those two things without going crazy. I think

>> it's funny you you said it and I I I I thought of something and it's like you can run as fast as you can and like you could go as fast as you can

>> but sometimes the beauty is just right there with you right alongside. It's the the butterfly is right there. It's not moving and you could just appreciate a super OOD calico in its beauty in it in the great scheme of things. This little thing here is a lot prettier than a hypo ultra compite which everybody's, you know, going a-hole on like, oh man, we're going to have we have to make this quad recessive whatever and we spend this amount of money and it's like okay, but this thing here that we already have looks 10 times better and we haven't done anything with it yet,

>> right?

>> The point of doing this crazy things with so many genes. I get it. But to me, the real beauty, we have it already. Like we we know what looks good,

>> right?

>> Let's work with those. Like that. That's what we're trying to do.

>> I I'm I'm with you 100%. And I had some friends over for dinner on uh Saturday night. And of course, like probably all of us, if we're having dinner with new acquaintances, the the snake breeding takes over the conversation.

>> Usually does.

>> Yeah, it usually. Yeah. And and I I gave them that exact conversation because they were like, "Well, who's buying this?" And I'm like, "Well, you got your pet breeders. You got you got these these sort of whale collectors that that truly want something unique, but in the middle there's a whole bunch of other breeders that want stuff." And I said, "My my north star has always been it's got to look cool. It's it's I use the analogy of a joke. If I have to explain the joke, is it is it funny? If I have to explain how cool it is,

>> do I uh you know and and we'll get to this story, but in uh in in Toronto, I I literally stopped in the aisle and I said, "Whoa, what the hell is that on your table?" And that that's how I acquired those animals. That was the start of how and that that's exactly what it was was like, "Actually, I don't even care what's written. I I want to figure out if I can afford." You were like, "I don't know the price. I want those."

>> Yeah. I was like, "I do this." And um and then it actually worked out very well and and and like I say, we'll get to some of that, but um

>> so um uh sorry, we got on a tangent, but I got excited about it. So, uh, Gorilla Oh, Guerilla this year. Um, it's coming in in Clown. And I know that we can't predict the future, but what do you hope to see? It seems like um actually, I'll just leave it there. What do you hope to see in Clown or what do you think it'll do in Clown? Or have you thought about it? I mean, you must have dreamt like what's what's going to be there when you cut that egg open.

>> Not much.

>> No. Okay. Just wait.

>> I don't expect I don't expect Gorilla Clown as just it to be that much. Um I think that the the beauty of it is really going to be when you start layering other jeans with it where like you have a spot-nose yellow belly clown against a spot-nose gorilla yellow belly clown at like 300 grams. It's going to be easy to pick which one you want to have in your rack. That's what I think we're going to see from Gorilla. But as of like if I show you a a Gorilla Clown probably be going to be you're probably going to be like, "Oh, it might be a bit underwhelming." That's that's what I'm seeing from the gene right now. Like you hatch it and you're like, "Huh, not what I expected." And then at two 300 grams, you're like,

>> "Oh, that looks good. That starts to look really, really good." That's why in a lot of videos I compared it with lace in terms of obviously it's not nothing alike but lace when it hatches you're like h okay maybe and then as they age you're like oh completely obvious it blows out the like it's it's incredible. So, that's a little bit of what I'm seeing with Gorilla. Like, they hatched I I keep on bringing that story up, but like we hatched a Cypress Gorilla last year, came out. I had two absolutely identical. Couldn't tell which was which. And what I do with this is I put them in a rack and I'm like, "Let them grow. We'll we'll we'll come back to it."

>> And then couple months later,

>> I come back and this there's just this Cypress gorilla that's black, man. But the blacks are jet black. And I had a customer from Japan that was at the facility and he was like, I had some Gorillas for sale and this one was Pause Gorilla. And he opens the bin, he's like, I want this one.

>> That That's the one that passes the test, right?

>> Yes. And I'm looking at it with him and I'm like, it's not there's no hold back tag on it, so I can't say I'm I'm holding it back. So I myself up there. Um

>> some cash makes things easier though, right?

>> Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, 100%.

>> Yeah. Uh we did jump the gun a little bit on this and who better to ask the question than uh Emily at Snake Discovery. Uh what does the gorilla gene do?

>> So gorilla is a dark enhancing gene and I feel like that's very very generic, but that's that's really what it is. It's it's kind of a blackback mutation where uh the dorsal is whiter, a lot more blacks. Um it kind of resembled a hit redantic in some ways. We shed tested it. Definitely not the same. Um, don't seem to be, unless we've missed on a lot of the clutches that we've done for Super Gorilla. Don't seem to be that much of a clear super. Um, potentially something like Leopard, a little bit of like bubbled up pattern and connected pattern in some of the P supers, but that's only theories. Um, and what it seems to be doing is when you layer other genes in it, it really boosts the blacks and accentuates that coloration leading to adulthood. So, as its own, it's not the most impressive gene. But when you get into things that are very complicated with a lot of genes involved, that's those are the crucial genes that will make an animal go from like A to A+. So, that's kind of what I'm seeing with it. And that's really the approach I want to have with with gorillas really to go little baby steps and just like holding back only the best looking animals like make gorilla hurricanes this year that are really really awesome. And my goal is not to throw this these animals into recessive. I want to make a like super hurricane yellow belly gorilla with the ones we have instead of trying to go for like hurricane gorilla puzzles or whatever. So, I'm I'm just trying to have visually nice gorillas and really make them look awesome and then whoever buys into the project. It's all up to you to put it into any recessive you want because it's not the focus that I that we're heavily pushing with it.

>> Nice. Thank you for Thank you for doing that. And again, I should have I should have done that. And if you guys missed at the intro, I'll be vending uh at the Snake Discovery Show in Hastings this weekend. So, thanks for putting that on and thanks for supporting Ed and Emily. appreciate you.

Um, uh, let me see. Uh, how much, uh, how much gorilla is out there and available? Uh, available, I'd say we have about like, uh, 10 animals right now, available probably. Um, and I I think we sold about like, 20 to 30 total, and a good bunch of them went to Japan actually. Um, sorry for the shaking camera. My my dog just walked in and it's pushing me around.

>> That's an acceptable explanation

>> 100%. Um, so yeah, I think we have it's about 5050 between uh US and Japan um where they are. There's one in Europe and couple in the UK, uh two in Canada elsewhere and then the rest Japan and the US.

>> Great. And if uh if people are interested in Guerilla, should they uh come see your site? Uh NBK, both. However,

>> yeah, I mean, if you go see NBK, you probably won't have an answer, so might as well hit me up.

>> All right, good, man. Um, we could take some of the conversation that we just had and let's move over to Scrambler. It's

>> absolutely

>> It's hot right now. It's looks amazing. Uh it's hotly debated. Uh there's many naysayers. Uh there's a lot of things popping up being labeled as scrambler. I've said out loud, I think there's going to be I call it a lace moment. I think

>> 100%.

>> There's going to be a time when somebody has purchased something called scrambler that might have been labeled that in very good conscience. I'm not I'm not even saying nefarious or under underhanded, although I suspect that goes about in our business as well.

>> Um

>> talk a little bit about that. What do you see? What do you feel like you know? What do you feel like you don't know about Scrambler?

>> So, we got our original Scrambler animal from Mark Mandic. So, long story short to go actually long story short, let's make it long because we have time and we're there for that. Let's take the time for it. Um, so I had a phone call with Mark uh about a month ago or something and um he really ran me through all the steps that happened in him discovering the Scrambler. Um, sorry. So the very first OD that Mark acquired was a super OD and he was the first person to buy a super o uh orange dream from Azie way back.

>> Okay. This first animal um was exceptionally greatlooking and Mark believes that this animal was the origin of scrambler. So as early as the first OD that he got was an animal with Scrambler. So when he bred those snakes, he obviously brand new in the industry, super orange dream, first clutch ever made, first one ever sold. It's with Scrambler breeds the animal. And the thing is over the years the animals you hold back are the best looking ones and the animal that sells first are the best looking ones, right? So what happens with scrambler and we can go later on uh if we think it is a gene or it isn't. Um, but what happens with Scrambler is since Orange Dream got so popular by obviously the work of Mark and Aussie, but by the fact that Orange Dream is such a versatile and great looking gene, Bald Python works

So well with oranges. It's just perfect for the ball python color that we know. Um, what happens is a lot of those scrambler animals were sold being called Orange Dream, being called Super Orange Dream, then not being Super Orange Dream. So there was a lot of things happening like that.

So, >> sorry. Let me ask you, let me ask you this. This go and any part of this that you want to say, I don't know that's between Mark and Azie and I don't know. >> Does this, does the whole high-intensity Orange Dream thing fall in the middle of this somewhere in your gut feeling or what do you think?

>> You know what? I um, it's funny because it's not black or white. There's a lot of nuances of orange in between. >> Right? And um, so we acquired kind of a diversion right there. We acquired a super high OD one dose from Aussie back when he just discovered that thing, right? And um, it was >> Sorry, let me clarify. >> Yeah, it was a super high intensity fire leopard. >> But how could it only be one dose if it was super?

>> So you have your high OD and then your >> OD. So high OD and OD. If you have a high OD bred to a OD, you have one dose high Orange Dream. If you have a high OD to a high OD, you have two dose high Orange Dream. That's how Aussie explained it originally, right? >> Yes. >> So the animal we acquired was a one dose high Orange Dream, high intensity Orange Dream.

>> And from that male, we had babies and I have a picture somewhere in my phone. I'll, I'll definitely go and and try to find that and send it to you. And I had a picture of clutch mates. One was a rich vibrant orange and the other one was almost like red and the other one was really paler Orange Dream typical stuff >> from the same clutch. And there I had it in my hands, the high OD and the OD, clear as day. That's it.

>> What happens after that is the scrambler doesn't fit with those two. It doesn't look like a single OD and it doesn't look like the high OD. There's a definite pattern look in between that. Now, is it a gene on its own? Is it another mutation of Aussie uh of of OD? What is it exactly? The way I see it, I definitely see it as a gene of its own because of how if you've seen enough and you like, you literally like you've looked at multiple Orange Dreams, multiple Super Orange Dreams, Super OD Fire, Super OD Calico and so on. You look at those animals and the ones that you think carry scrambler, like they're really different. There's a big difference with those animals. So the problem with the gene is one, so many people have it without knowing and two, because so many people have it and right now like the industry wants brand new things and and want to jump on >> everybody wants trinkets. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Right. So to me, it's heavily overpriced at the moment >> because it's in so many collections right now. I don't think a single scrambler clown should be like three grand. Technically, if we had a shed test available for it, I think pretty much everybody has scrambler in their collection if you have a decent amount of Orange Dream in your animals because which animals are you going to buy? You're going to buy the prettiest ones. And more often than not, the scramblers are the prettiest ones. So I, there, there's so many little aspects to it that I understand someone coming from a perspective of like, you're trying to make us believe what you want to sell, right? And like you're, you're trying to scam us into selling us something that doesn't exist. I understand where they're coming from from this because of how much little details go into the story. Bringing that gene into our industry right now, it's really complicated. So the way I took it on me is I can't overcharge. I can't overcharge for a gene that's one, readily available. We understand each other there when I say readily available. Like there's few people advertising it as a scrambler, but it's probably in a lot of places. Um, so I can't charge that much of a prime on it and I'm just going to sell them because they look absolutely badass. Like I've hatched some crazy Super OD scrambler clown this year and they're by far the best OD clowns I've ever made, by far, by a mile. And I'm like, I'm not going to charge you eight grand for it because that, I don't think that's what it's worth. But I'm definitely going to charge you more than a Super OD Yellowbelly Black Pastel Clown. So there's kind of that in between where like if you charge too much then it's like >> if there's still nuances that are unknown, people might not be happy. But if you find the sweet spot of selling them, that's where I think like you can still have an opinion without feeling like you're screwing people over. If that makes sense.

>> Okay, lots of thoughts. First, before anybody accuses me of of trying to undermine anybody's project, Antoine will be the first to tell you I have invested in scrambler. I own scramblers. I bought them from Antoine. And those indeed were the animals as I was walking through Toronto trying to get around to say hello to various people. I said, "What the hell is that?" I, I, if you had asked me, I would have put money on some sort of uh um Desert Ghost combo. It's that bright and vibrant. Yeah.

>> And I can't remember if you didn't have the prices marked or what, but yes, a conversation ensued of, >> okay, was it take me to get one of those? Okay, does it take me to get a male and a female? Okay, I'll take them. And um, and and actually this part of the story, I don't mind sharing one bit. You said, "Hey, we'll get them to the United States because I'm vending in Tinley. I'm already importing these either way." Primo customer service. Phenomenal. Thank you so much. And and pleasure. Um, I'll leave it there, but thank you for that. Uh, I have since bought another one from um Mark Mandic, a breeder, because I want to get to work on it. I'm excited about it. And what your sort of your closing sentence in your argument a moment ago or your presentation was um, I don't care because it looks amazing. That's me. I'm not worried about the price because if it'll stop me in the aisle, if it, if I still every person that's coming to my shop to buy a rodent goes, "Can I, can I take a look at those?" And I show them and they're like, "Holy, holy smokes." You know?

>> Yeah. >> And that to me is the test to steal a line from you earlier. I'll figure out what to do with it in the future. I'll tinker. I'll play with it. I'll discover. I'll figure something. So, um, in that way, it's it's pretty exciting. So, I want to give those sort of um disclaimers. So, uh, not to put words in your mouth, but am I right? You feel that it's a uh a non-recessive, whether we call it a dominant, a co-dominant. No, but we we think there's a super scrambler form as well. Thing there is. I mean, I've, I, it's, it's mostly clear in pi, but pi is so variable that it's really hard to say. Like, you could have some really, really good-looking scrambler pides that could be super or could just be variants of >> crazy looking pi. Um, I, I, I don't think there's a big enough sample right now um to really know, but I technically from what I've seen, yes, it's a, it should be an incomplete dominant.

>> Yeah. And um, we've seen it a fair amount in pi. Is it a safe sort of guideline to say that it's a tends to be a lower white pi? Have we seen very high white pi?

>> Seems to be, seems to be a lower, lower white pi. I mean, it seems to be the most of the ones I've seen tend to be uh very low white pi, which is which is pretty exciting. And what it does to pi is probably one of the best looking uh like effect on pi that I've ever seen. It's absolutely mind-blowing when we start to line breed those animals into clown and to desert ghost. Um, I really think that there's there's definitely something awesome to to work from there. Um, I'm, I'm really excited for for that part. To be honest,

>> I love um, sorry, these will be two conflicting statements that are both true to me. I love pi and I've gotten bored with it. I felt like it's >> Likewise, my friend. I'm exactly right there with you. >> It, it's the thing that like, it's that initial hook that's phenomenal. See, it blows people's minds at an expo that have never seen a ball python or aren't sort of in our world. That's like, like that's the one that gets them in and makes them go, "Explain. How the hell does that happen?" And then you can have that great conversation and it's wonderful. To this day.

>> Yeah. I think my pastel, well, up until about a week and a half ago when Mark's snake arrived, uh, I, I think that my best adult pie is a pastel yellow belly. That girl is undefeated. She's phenomenal. It's just again, like you said, take away all the words, >> open that tub and look in there and that thing is a beast and she's beautiful and and >> contrast, pattern um, and and and color is phenomenal across the board on it. But >> we know what a pastel yellow belly pi goes for and that's almost wholesale values these days, which is a shame, but that's the fact of it. That's okay. Um, the market's the market, but that, that's the situation. So, it made pi exciting to me again to go, okay, Orange Dream pides are actually are pretty cool. They're probably right below my my pastel yellow belly. I'll keep saying that. But, but the Orange Dream pides. Um, but then I see this snake in person. So, I got a, a super Orange Dream scrambler hypo pi from Mark. Uh, yeah, very generous >> gear there. >> What's? Yeah, very helpful. Really changed uh my pi outlook. And of course, having really enjoyed pi and only having been at this for five years, you can imagine buying a bunch of pides up front, I have a lot of pides to do stuff with now. And it's, it's like, >> okay, now I'm, now I'm back again, you know? So, I, I'm, I'm very, very excited about that. So, we've seen it in >> hypo and in pi. Uh, I think you said you made a clown scrambler. What do you talk us through that a little bit?

So, I got a snake from Aussie in 2024, I think. Um, originally that animal was purchased as an Orange Dream, Yellowbelly or Ashalt, Cypress, Barnhard, Black Pastel Clown. And I shed tested this animal for Yellowbelly or Ashalt. I wanted to know which was which, >> right? >> And um, turned out it was Yellowbelly. And also turned out that it wasn't Cypress. So look, it, it looked like that animal was actually in fact a Orange Dream Yellowbelly Barnhard Black Pastel Clown. But this snake was unreal. So I got on a phone with Aussie. We had, you know, multiple discussions. I sent this snake pictures to uh Mark and um, we all kind of agreed that it most likely is a a scrambler instead of Cypress.

>> Uh-huh. Um, and what I'm seeing repetitively with those scrambler clowns is a very striped pattern. Um, I don't know how good you remember like all of Aussie's posts, but two years ago he posted an unreal Super Orange Dream Fire Yellowbelly Barnhard Cypress Clown. This snake was neon orange with like two black stripes on the side. It was absolutely incredible.

>> Were the stripes going uh like laterally or? >> Laterally. It didn't touch. >> Okay. Wow. Oh, really? Okay. Okay. >> Oh, yeah. Unreal. Unreal animal. And when you look at a lot of like I'm subscribed to Aussie's newsletter, so I get mostly most of his clutches, all the pictures of the babies, and I'm starting to really pick a trend on some of the animals that are scramblers and some of the animals that are not. And you clearly see that there's a difference between some of his like OD Black Pastel, Barnhard, Cypress Clown and some of the others. Some of the others are really striped and some have the typical alien with like the teardrops and the loop. And the the ones that we're all kind of calling scramblers are the ones that are are really like striped pattern and very jagged and weird looking animals. I can send you some pictures um after the show and and like you, you'll, I, I have like a document on my phone where like I, I'm comparing a little bit of the two and it's, it's pretty impressive when you start to pick up on like, huh, that's what it might be doing. It, it, it has a really significant effect on it. Have we found some combo or something that excites you with scrambler removed from Orange Dream? Have we taken that leap? Is anybody, I mean, it's so good with Orange Dream, of course, but >> Yeah. >> I mean, to our point earlier of of of just the opportunities out there that are right in front of us. Uh, anybody taken a leap outside of that or have there been a, you know, a banger male that's got five codes in it that you start popping out cool stuff without the OD or any any thoughts on that? I mean, there, I definitely, I have seen some um, I have seen some stuff out there that was labeled as like, you know, a banger plus scrambler but without OD. Everything I have is with OD because if I have a choice of taking OD or no OD, I'm always broken.

>> Yeah. It's not broken. Yeah. >> Like my collection is I got so influenced by Azie and Mark when I started this industry. Like I absolutely love the orange stuff and I, I want to have it in every single one of my projects. Um, so for me, definitely everything I'll pretty much do with it is going to be OD involved. Um, I've seen, I've seen some stuff without OD. Uh, but there's also that fine line right now where it's like I see a lot of people labeling stuff scrambler because it's makes sense that it's scrambler and it might be scrambler. Like I, I could very easily tell you that the OD Yellowbelly Monsoons I made last year are most likely scrambler, but I don't know. I don't know because the female comes from an unrelated line that I cannot trace back. I'm looking at the male that produced those Monsoons and I'm like, "Huh, you look extraordinarily, extraordinarily incredible." And I look at the Yellowbelly Monsoons I've produced and they look like no other Yellowbelly Monsoon I've ever seen. So I'm like, could they be Yellowbelly scrambler Monsoon? Very likely. Very likely. But I'm not going to claim them. Scrambler Monsoon. I don't know if they are. I can't trace them back. There's no shed testing and I don't have a big enough of a sample. So, it's like to me, it's it's kind of a slippery slope when you start answering your own questions by like, oh, it's, it must be scrambler. So, here it is. It's scrambler and here we go. And that's just creating more and more confusion. Um, so >> that, that all ties back to my comment about there's going to be a lace moment. There's going to be a day where >> it either it is or it isn't. Um, or or it isn't all together and it's a line-bred amazing example that we've >> And if it is a line-bred, dude, at the end of the day, the animals you got from me are like super OD and super OD fire.

>> Yeah, I know. That's Well, it's nice and simple that way. I mean, it was it was fantastic. >> What else can we say about those animals? Like they're just plain and simple, simple stuff, but they look that good. Like what else am I going to tell you? Like, oh, it's the best quality OD. Okay. Well, so be it, >> right? So be it. >> Yeah. And it, you know, and sort of hinging on this, which actually I want to get to uh maybe in a moment after a brief break. um is uh the whole philosophy of pricing, how you build that in, what you could sleep with uh, you know, clear conscience in the evening after after building a deal and that kind of thing. Um, but before we leave scrambler, for me it was, I will tell you that those your two snakes and Mark's one snake are the only three snakes that I've ever gone out of my way to import from Canada. It's not a simple process to do. You guys are crushing it up there. One of the things I have written right in my notes is what's up with this hotbed of breeders and genes coming out of Toronto to Montreal? Man, it's amazing what you guys have going on there.

>> Yeah, 401 effect. It's the highway between the two of us. That's that's the 401 effect. 100%. Man, >> it is. I mean, I'm What am I? I got scrambler, gorilla, cantaloupe, java, jag. Uh, what else am I missing that came out?

>> Well, there, there's the chaos, but now the chaos has moved to the US. So, this one we disregarded. >> Oh, you've had enough of you're like, that's >> I love the gene, but it's it's from Will from um >> American, American. I don't even know what to call him anymore. RCR. >> Um, it's a great gene. It's a great gene, but it's a, it's like a very underlooked recessive gene that he has in his collection. >> You, I have to say, I can't even say this on air because it's going to be taken the wrong way. I'll tell you afterward. >> I just made my I will tell you afterward. I can't say that right. Um, I uh, I was born in the South and I'm a history major and many Canadians call all Americans Yankees, but there was a time when certain people south of a certain point have a different name and it just happens to start with a C as well. And I'll be back there. That, that's okay. I'll stop that. Um, uh, so the chaos and I was think, but oh, and so Mark, but Mark's been at this 25 years. He's got the MJanthics.

>> I, I saw somewhere that like Blade was was uh attributed to Mark as well, which isn't, I don't think it's been anybody's game changer, but I was like, oh, okay. >> That is new information for me. I, I could not >> I don't know if it's accurate. I saw it on the internet, so you know, who knows. Um, so, yeah, here we go. Now we've started it. There we go. We'll leave it with Pete. Royal American Reptiles right there. So, um, but I say all that because I, I at least want to be able to say when that time comes and somebody says, "Oh, oh, you have scrambler." And I go, "Yeah, here's a lineage. Here's who I got it from, and here's why I bought it." It wasn't because of the words. It was because these are what these things look like. Yeah, >> If I got that in my arsenal, I'm excited and I stand by it kind of thing.

>> Yeah, at the end of the line, I think that's really what matters. And it ties back to everything we were talking about earlier, like the and and and Peter is a good example of that because he doesn't care about all that double recessive, triple recessive. Like he likes to produce $200, $300 snakes that look incredible.

>> Um, and and and no jabs taken there, but like some simple stuff look fantastic. And when it comes to those animals like the one you acquired and and the animals that I'm holding back and the few scramblers that I've produced and selling, I'm like, at the end of the day, if they're not scrambler, man, they're the best looking super OD I have ever produced in my life. And I'm backing up that slightly expensive um animals by saying that they are by far the best looking I've ever made.

>> Exactly. And it's um I always like I, I've never actually done it because business is not the place to play games and and run too too many experiments. Although I do experiment a lot, but I had this vision of going to an expo with no prices and no labels on my snakes. And when people say, "What is it and how much does it cost?" I go, >> "I don't know what it is, but what do you think it's worth based on what it looks like?" And >> Yeah. >> Obviously, like I say, we all don't have all time in our lives to play these games. We're moving into new places and trying to make a dollar and stay alive and eat and all of that, but I think about that philosophically a whole lot, and I think that's important to to think about. Um, speaking of uh paying bills and trying to get by and all of that, uh, let's take just a second and then uh afterwards I want to ask you about vending in in America. Uh, I want to ask you about your experience north and south of the border. And then uh I do want to hear a little bit uh more about cantaloupe. And I, you touched on it briefly, but I'd love to really dive in on how does somebody go about pricing something that either hasn't existed before is so new. Um, and you've been very generous and transparent about the concerns and and and I guess ethical is the right way, but business concerns and and and doing this the right way. So, I want to dig in a little bit on that, too. I appreciate how honest you've been about that and and a lot of people just won't even have those conversations. So, thank you very much for that. So, stick around, guys. We're going to get to that in just a moment. Uh, it's cold out there, but we got a little thaw. Uh, Christmas is coming. My camera won't focus. Check out Redline Shipping. There you go. They are the shipping company that I use because of the service that they provide and the uh institutional knowledge. They have a phone number that you can call and get a human that is a reptile keeper and enthusiast. and their team there will talk you through what is good and not good for your animals, especially at this time of year with the cold temperatures or going from very cold to somewhat moderate or warm. Uh, as was the case uh when I uh brought up Will, that snake went from Toronto to Atlanta to Minnesota was how that snake uh got here. Another uh creative way to get it here. Uh, what I'm saying is, um, they have the supplies and the information to help you on your way. Use a promo code proper 5 redlinehipping.com. Save yourself five bucks on your next shipping label. Uh, shedtesting.com. We've talked a lot about shed testing on this episode or the lack thereof on some of the new things, but shedtesting.com has over 40 genes that you can test for. Uh, Charlie Williams is the man behind shedtesting.com. You'll see that brand start to change over to Phenome. He is now a part of uh Phenome, which is a genetics company working uh much bigger projects even outside of ball pythons and but Charlie Williams is still the man in charge there at the DNA testing for your reptiles. You can take a shed from your animal, you can choose a gene to have it tested for, and he will tell you uh with scientific certainty if that gene is there or not. And you could do a full panel of recessives or excuse me, a 10 recessive gene panel for $85. So get you down to $85 per uh shed test. Less holdbacks, faster results, all more efficient, all that good stuff. Go check out shedtesting.com. Use a promo code proper 10. Get yourself 10% off of any order, any two orders of shed test. You can order as many tests as you want per order, but you can only do it twice with the code. So, save yourself a little bit of money and get some results there. Sund Dog Serpents, that's Josh and Sarah down in Orlando. I believe that they just vended the Orlando Repticon this past weekend. They are working uh and this will be up Antoine's alley. They are working uh super asphalt projects in the United States down in Orlando. Uh one of the few people that I know that is doing that. They're doing great things with super asphalt. They're also uh heavily into TSK Aanthics. So, if you are a TSK Aanthic person, um go check out their ingredients. They're working clown uh TSK projects and have ingredients for those as well as some double visuals. They also recently hatched some puzzles and hypo stranger clowns. That's a heck of an ingredient right there for a lot of projects, too. So, go check out Josh and Sarah at Sund Dog Serpents. Reagan Renee Royal Pythons. If you haven't been to reagan renee.com, you don't have to type the royal pythons, just reagan renee.com. Go check that out. That is all things Reagan Renee Royal Pythons. The uh first off, the inventory of snakes on there is the full inventory. Uh there is a variety of ways to pay, but most importantly uh are all the digital platforms to pay, but also the what is it? The pay later kind of thing. The buy now pay later kind of deal that that that's done outside of uh that's Charlie um Ryan there is done outside of Charlie's financing. It's free shipping. He's going to cover all the shipping if you buy directly from reagan renee.com and then he's got these really, really cool value add-ons. Uh Charlie does uh he he works in high volume production and studies uh analytics and metrics endlessly. So these uh various metrics uh calculators you could calculate or it'll help you calculate or make good decisions uh for pairing based on uh projected financials and financial outcomes from the pairings. Also whether it makes financial sense to test particular animals or particular clutches. Uh could just go check it out. It's incredible stuff that he's working on and he has done that um from the ground up and his calculators do include allelic combos now, which has been a coding nightmare for some number of years, but his his do include that as well. And last but not least, you can get uh 10% off there on top of all of that by using the promo code proper 10. Keeper Kane, that is a YouTube channel that uh Kane would love for you to check out. That's Kane and Michelle Fritzwallis. They are animal keepers down in Tennessee. Uh ball python breeders, big snakes, uh uh what do you call not not fish and aquatics? That's the one. You don't call it fish. If you're serious, you call it aquatics. Uh tarantulas, all of that. Uh they document it all on their YouTube channel called Keeper Kane. Always family-friendly, guaranteed. Go watch it with your family. Don't worry about if your uh kids are into this stuff. It's going to be a safe place for them. and he's a great ball python breeder, a great asset to our community. Uh very supportive of many, many Patreons. Thanks for the support. Uh Kane, go check that out. Keeper Kane YouTube. Last but not least, uh he's in the audience is Chris at BNS Reptilia. Chris is the original advertising partner of uh Proper Royals. I'm so thankful for our business relationship, but also our friendship. We vended together in October. We own a pretty cool animal. We own one of the two rainbow clowns that I know of on the planet. I'm sure there's more coming, but we got the female. She's just about ready to go. So, stay tuned for what we cook up on that. But, uh, Chris is reptilia because he, uh, not only has ball pythons, but specializes in blood pythons, locality boas, colubrids of all shapes and sizes, pituous, the bullsnakes, the pine snakes. If you're interested in those, Chris will help to make sure that you can own them legally in your location. and he's got the uh permit knowledge, the education to make sure that you can do so legally and safely. He's a great resource. He's also the regional distributor for the Chipper in Pennsylvania. If you're looking to acquire some uh cocoa, go check him out for that. If you'd like to become a distributor of the Chipper yourself, get in touch with him and he can help you with that as well. Last but not least is the audience. Thank you guys. Thanks for the support. uh coming up on um uh we just passed around four and a half years. So we're going to have a big five-year show. 2026 will be the the the fifth-year anniversary of Proper Royals. But the audience, you guys are the ones that keep me coming back. Thank you for your support. I'm uh thankful so much for it. Think about supporting these companies. These are companies from inside our industry. They bring this content to you ad-free. There have been no Google pop-ups in all of this. There's been no interruptions on YouTube. Go support these folks if you get a chance and it doesn't cost anything to support them and follow and like and uh tell them thanks. Okay, so go check them out. The guest tonight is Antoine from uh DPR Cold Blood based out of Montreal, Quebec, Ontario. And uh if you're just now tuning in, go back on the replay. Go from the start. Content packed. I promise you it's been a great episode. Uh we're going to talk a little bit about uh business in Canada, business in the United States, pricing, and uh let's see if we could pack in a little bit on the cantaloupe here in the next uh 15, 20, however, however long we feel good chatting. How about that?

>> No, no problem, man. No problem. We're watching the hockey game before um before this started and my girlfriend texted me that we're losing three to one to Philadelphia, so like we can stay here. I don't want to watch the third period. We're good. At least you're not losing to the Leafs, though, right?

>> Uh, that never happens.

>> Okay. Yeah, exactly. That's right. Yeah. >> Actually, not not not so much this year. The Leafs are terrible this year. That's it's not that true. They had a not too bad couple of uh couple of weeks. So, but >> wasn't last year like the first year that they won a playoff game and like your life?

>> Yeah. Since Well, I mean, the last cup is 1967 and they haven't had a win in the playoffs for like I don't know 40 years. It's Yeah. I don't know. Let me be a little bit equal opportunistic here. The one thing I notice about Habs fans is that they know everything about the Maple Leafs. It's a little weird fixation. I got to say, man, I got to say it's as an outsider, I I notice these things.

>> 100% 100%. But true hockey fan knows everything about hockey.

>> Oh, okay. Okay. Yeah. And I know nothing. You've now heard everything I know about hockey. So,

>> good, good, good. Perfect. I have this strategy where I say a couple neat things about a topic and I have to scurry on along very quickly or I will get uh I will get outed. Um, that's good.

>> Okay. Oh yeah, I forgot about Eric's question. So Eric took the time to message me very specifically. He wanted to know what you had to say about the Cowboys and Tony Romo. I hope this is all clean. I have no idea what he's talking about. Man, so took a decision when I was young to only dedicate myself to one sport and like knowing the the the whole game and watching and whatever. I only do hockey. That's the only thing I my partner from NBK, he is all a Cowboys fan. He loves it. Like he has >> cowboy tattooed on his body. Like he's all over it. He can answer that question. To me, I don't know who that player is. I unfortunately I'm that's it. I'm a hockey guy. That's it. It is what it is.

>> So uh just really briefly what you described about the Leafs. It hasn't been since 1967. But the Cowboys, EMTT won squat since like uh somebody will be able to tell me 96, 97. And you would think that they're just the world's most amazing team. And they were uh you can you can um let your partner you can ask your partner how uh how the elimination this weekend felt. They're they're mathematically eliminated from any playoff potential. Oh, they're done. Yeah, they're the 2026. Bring it on because they're done. That's it.

>> Stick a fork in them. So, uh, there we go. Now we we've covered the sports segment of the of the proper Royals >> tonight's broadcast. Yeah, >> that's right. That's right. Um, how do you how do you price something that hasn't existed? Uh, and and now let's go away from scrambler for a moment because it's really hot right now, but let's say gorilla. Uh, you got a pretty good idea of what it is. And then, like you say, you, you uh um, you find new things and that make you go, "Huh, what what's going on here?" Um, how do you price those? And and I don't mean the specific dollar amount, sort of the philosophical uh process.

So, it's a, it's a very, it's a very good question because there's a lot of factors that go into play for something like this. Um, when you look right now at new genes um in the industry, there's a lot of um usually like when there's a new gene, single, single gene that comes out, it's probably going to be between $5 to $10,000. Usually.

>> That's kind of the ballpark where it happens. If someone does really good marketing or the gene is absolutely incredible, um, then it might be higher than that.

>> Sure. And recessive and dominant of some sort would play. >> 100%. Yeah. If it's a recessive that's very visual like the tornado or the zebra when it came out, then the price tag is obviously a lot higher. Um, so the first thing is establishing what is your gene. So we want to know, is it a recessive trait? Is it an incomplete dominant, a dominant mutation? Like that's really helping as far as narrow it down the margin of that price. Um, then visually the animal is on its own, does it look completely brand new? It can someone look at this animal and be like, "Huh, that's a cosmos." I can. If I see a cosmos, I'll be able to tell you it's a cosmos. So that being said, the price point is higher. But if you look at something else and I'm, I'm not going to name any of the genes because I don't want to put anybody on the spot.

>> Right. Exactly. Exact. Yeah. It's a touchy thing. I get it. Thank you.

>> It is a touchy thing. But you see sometimes some genes that come out and you're like, how can this be a pastel dot dot dot and be 10 grand? And I don't see it. Like to me when it came to the gorilla and the cantalopes, the first gorilla combos were selling for five grand. And the reason is I think from when we, when I did the first release, I, I guess that what happened is the platform where I was doing the videos, my YouTube channel and the hype I built around it and the whole way it was released really helped create enthusiasts towards that gene, which is perfect. That's what we wanted. That's what we had. That year where we first released the gorillas, I think I could have probably priced them twice as high and still sell almost just as many. Because the people that were inquiring about gorilla were not saying, "Hey, how much are you asking for it?" They were asking me, "How many do you have?" Like, "What do you have available? I want to buy one.

>> What do you have available that looks like this?" And um, my reflection towards pricing those animals to that price is it's a more subtle gene. Yes, 100% it's new. It's it's it's hyped up. A lot of people are talking about it. But I think that in the grand scheme of things, if I start to price them too high, make my money there, and then the value drops significantly because the interest drops at the same time because it was overpriced, the it hurts the project long term because if people see a drop in that price, the first year it's 10 and the second year is five and then it's a thousand, it doesn't make sense.

>> Right. Right. Where when we priced them at five and now like a single gene is about like two or something after like two and a half years of selling them. Um, I feel like we have more of a solid uh core around that price where it's two grand. It's not 10 grand. Like someone buying into it can still figure things out with a two grand investment where a 10 grand investment, 10 grand is a lot of money for for everybody. Like it's it's a lot of >> Yeah. >> So >> if I was to spend 10 grand on a gene, I want it to be more than gorilla. Do you know what I mean? Like it's not that is not an exciting gene. What I'm saying is, is it worth 10 grand for a single gorilla?

>> I don't think so.

>> So it's kind of like when it when it comes to those new genes, it's difficult. Like I don't want to underprice it. I don't want to overprice it and I want to find the sweet spot. So, I think we kind of did there. Um, there was there was there was definitely hype and at the same time there's potential, but you got to be able to recognize this potential without like being too much in your ego and and saying that ah this is the best next thing and it's worth so much money and then they're on there on morph market for 10 grand and they sit there for two years and nobody buys them. You're like, well, I'm not going to buy that. You know, nobody's buying it, I'm not gonna buy it. So,

>> does it play into your thought process? Hey, I need a certain number of people working this so that they can like almost no matter how good your own hype train is, you can only produce so many of these new things. Whereas if you have 10 people producing really good versions of this and we know how big in some ways the market's very limited, another way from a raw number, there's a ton of people out there. So do we need more >> do we need more people working the project to sort of further its uh legitimacy and excitement or do you not think about that? Do you just go hey here's the animal in front of me I gotta figure out what what this makes sense just for me?

Um, I guess it's a bit of both. Um, like I was mentioning earlier, like, uh, I want to produce the animals that visually look fantastic first to me because we're selling, like we're the source, right? We're selling them and people are going to us to buy the gorillas right now. Um, and then everybody that buys them, I'm always super interested to hear their plans for the gene. And it's always like, you know, we sold some to Tinley. They're like, those are going for the hypo clown projects that we have. I'm like, awesome. We're going to be able to see something down the line from those animals that we know where they're going. And got to keep in mind that NBK's collection for the longest time was a wholesale collection. They were producing animals to sell to pet stores. And Brian, NBK owner, a gambling man as he is, he liked to import animals from Africa and hold back a few good-looking dinkers from here and there. And that's how gorilla came to be. So it was like a collection of like Belle, Purple Passion, Pi, Enchi Hypo, and then Gorilla, you know? So like when people ask ask me like, "Oh, where's the crazy Gorilla Pompeii?" It's like, "Well, man, >> it's not in that collection." Like literally, >> it, it, it's not in that collection. It. I could bring gorilla into DPR and make something a lot faster, but being doing joint projects is not something that I'm keen on doing that much. It makes things complicated. It, you know, you want to hold back, you want to sell the price, the whatever. So, it's always more complicated. So, I'm not, I haven't done much of it. Um, but uh, yeah, I'm super, I'm generally super excited to see what people are are are going to be doing with that gene. And >> in Japan, it's uh, it's something that, you know, like this is a c this is a shirt that a customer of mine actually made, >> like the gorilla >> Yeah. >> shirt from from Z Reptile in Japan. And they were importing some gorillas, some of the first gorillas there. And super hyped about it. I know some of the the people that ended up with some of the animals and um, I'm generally super excited to see what they're going to do with it because it's going to be something different because the way I'm seeing it, I want to take it as slow as possible as an originator to focus on just making badass looking animals year after year.

>> Have you uh let's see, Pythonic Obsession says, "Have you put scrambler into gorilla yet?" Seems like it would heighten some contrast. I, I think that uh that would be that could be interesting. What are your thoughts?

>> I added OD into it, which was ex, which was like a OD with like really, really dark black on the dorsal. Um, yeah, 100%. I mean, the the thing is we have an extremely limited amount of gorillas that we can work with.

>> So we don't have that many. And then also at the end, I don't want to produce too much. So if I make, so the sweet spot, like this year probably made like 25 gorilla, I think. So if I go into next year and I make 65, I'll have to do something. Either I pull a rabbit off my hat and I do some crazy marketing or I drop the price significantly. So it's kind of like you can't go at every project at the same time. So you know 100% it's going to happen. But I really like what I saw from gorilla yellow belly. So definitely 2026 is going to be a lot of that gorilla yellow belly combos because I think that yellow belly obviously being one of the most important gene that we have in our industry for like boosting contrast and intensity. I think those two genes together could yield some really, really awesome results down the line.

>> Very nice. Very nice. Um, something struck me. Most, I would say most of the snakes that Americans buy, this is just a course of generalization, so forgive me for oversimplifying, most of them come from the uh um uh domesticated American pet market or or domesticated American industry. But I feel like Canada has a lot more of an international flare just because of the necessity of the business model uh that way. And maybe that's where this sort of hotbed of genetics is going on where there's sort of a, it's not totally closed, of course, but largely closed. And I can tell you, I had a great experience with you and I had a great experience with Mark, but it still wasn't easy and it still wasn't quick. And it still made me go, are these snakes going to be okay? I mean, again, I don't want to share too much back information, but I think I think all three of those snakes took a tour of the United States Southeast uh before >> arriving just back to Minnesota. I mean, it's an hour and 15 minute plane flight. Um, and they, they took the long way. So, all of those things being said and um, you and I were able to handle the finances in person, man. Handling the finances with Mark, even that's a nightmare. No, I never realized it was so difficult to send money to Canada. Holy cow, man.

>> We don't have uh we don't have uh Cash App, Venmo, and whatnot. It's all these we we can't have. So we have, I, I personally, I use uh PayPal or like bank transfer, but then bank transfer, which is the ideal, but then you have to go to your bank and it, it's more of a hassle and PayPal takes crazy percentage, so it's >> Yeah, I think I used um, I can't remember, it's a just a four-letter >> Wise. >> Yeah, probably was Wise or Ways. No, yeah, yeah, probably Wise. Yeah. >> Wise. Yeah, that's what I do with my Japanese customer mostly. Yeah. >> I swear to God it was easier for me to get a US passport and I say that because I had just

Gotten my passport to go to Toronto. Uh, and I couldn't. And then it still, it took, I think Mark thought like, man, Adam seems like he's got it together. Like the money took forever to get there. He's like, nope, don't have it. And I'm like sending him screenshots. I'm like, I swear it's on its way, man.

So, um, uh, but it's almost necessitated in Canada because of how much smaller the, the, the amount of breeders are, but also the smaller population, right? Yeah. Yeah. We have less of a percentage of reptile keepers, and our percentage of the population is 10% of the US, and the economy is different. So, it's kind of like everything is against us, uh, when it comes to like running a business, uh, in Canada. It's possible. Definitely. There's guys that that are doing it, and, um, it's possible, but I feel like compared to the US, the opportunity is definitely not the same. So, for me, shipping into the US, I wanted to be a very, very big chunk of my sales each year.

Um, this year has been by far my worst year as far as sales in the US, by far. I don't know if it's from, uh, politics. I don't know if it's from the economy or the industry or many different factors that that that come into play. Um, but I feel like as a Canadian breeder, it's our, it's part, it's definitely a responsibility to put yourself out there a lot more and get contacts and and get going. Like our show in Tinley was fantastic. It was a great show as well. Thanks to you. You brought a great customer, um, uh, to us, and, and, and we did good business there. But at the same time, I think that like you mentioned, we have animals that are kind of coming from all over the place. I have animals from Germany, animals from Europe, animals from the US, animals from across Canada that came from different places, and some dinkers from Africa. So like our collections here are different than some that are in the States. So for me, going to the US, it was a great show in Tinley, and people were happy to have the animals there. And I mean, it's, it's a logistic nightmare to get everything going.

And I, again, you don't have to share everything, but you talked me through it. I said, man, I, and here I am complaining that I drove, uh, what, I haven't received the snakes back yet. They're, they're coming in this week. When we ship to the US, US Fish and Wildlife got in, um, in what is it, a grief or what, like a, like a government shutdown, so we couldn't apply for, uh, the master sides to ship everything back. And it, it, uh, reopened in late, late November. So technically, the animals are finally coming back, um, this, this, this week. They've been, uh, safe and looked after. I trust. Not, not by Fish and Wildlife. No, no, no, no, no. They're at their broker in Miami. Yeah. But still, I have like, some of those animals I sold there in person to Japanese customers, and I'm like, I have to ship them back to Canada, then to ship them back there. And now it's December, I don't know, 16th or something. And it's getting colder. And it's like, I mean, for us to ship to Japan is not too bad. Like we, we get it pretty dialed down. Like we could do our shipments even when it's cold, and we have a great shipping method. So, it's, it's not that much of a big deal. It's like a direct flight. But all that being said, it's like, it's a logistical nightmare to manage all of this. And it's like, it's nothing you can really predict. Like one year we had the animals going, and then COVID happened, and then if the animals are there, and then they don't want to ship back, and we can't go, and we can't pick them up, and this and that. Like, there's always a little thing coming into play. So, it's like, am I going to vent and lay again next year?

That was my next question. Then, then what's the verdict? You, I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Like, at the end of the day, I would love to. I think that for the presence of the brand and, and being able to share, uh, my animals with, with the community there, I, I would love to do it. Um, I don't know. I think I might do it again, but that one has to go smoothly. You know what I mean? Yeah.

Oh my gosh. I couldn't imagine, man. Yeah. So, like the whole process to get the animals there is very complicated, but because of my relationships, I got it dialed down and it works. Like, it, it's, it's feasible. We made it multiple, multiple times with animals that were in mine with NBK snake, and I've, I've been to Tinley's like, I have those Tinley badges. Some of them are like from 2020 or 2019, and we had animals there from 2019 all the way. Like, he's been doing it for 15 years. So we are able to do it. It's just that his animals are mostly like colubrids and wholesales, and it's like quantity. My animals are high-end and smaller volume. So for me to have a $10,000 snake stuck in the US for three months, that's where I'm like, yeah.

And that's where it's more of an issue. You know? What percentage of your for sale inventory is that? Like, for me, when I go vend, I probably take 80% of my for sale inventory for my display. That was probably 30% at the moment. Um, and it would, it would be like from the time that they were there, it's about like 20%, I guess. Yeah, man. That's still a huge amount. Oh, I'd be losing sleep. My goodness, man.

No stress, brother. No stress. It's part of it. Nothing can control. US Fish and Wildlife is shut down. I can't go knock on their door and be like, "Hey man, come to an agreement. I have some snakes to ship." I can't do anything about it. I sent more money to my broker, be like, "Feed them. Take care of them." Of course. But man, uh, I, I guess I feel for, I, I don't know. I would have, you've had more time to process it, but man, holy cow. That's, that's that's something there.

Antoine, I got one last question for you. What is that beast looking over your left shoulder back there? Is that a water buffalo? What do you got back there? It is a water buffalo, actually. It's a water buffalo. Do you have a name for this? Do you name this thing? What do you got? No, actually, um, uh, my father, when I grew up, he, uh, in his house, he used to have so many, um, animals like that. He had, uh, some caymans, a snowy owl, a piranha, a bullfrog, this beast there, um, armadillo, like he traveled a lot and like been with Colombia or mountain or mountain like that. Okay. All like that. Yeah. And he traveled a lot and, and he likes art, and he bought a lot of those back then and, and brought them back. This one is from Colombia, and, uh, he had it at his place for a long, long time, and he's getting older now, and he was like, I don't, I don't do much with it. Like, do you want to have it? And I was like, yes, yes, I do. Yes, I do.

So, have you seen the movie Dune? No, I haven't. I, I suck at movies. I can't sit still for two hours. I know it sounds like a cop out, but I truly, I can't. Yeah. In, um, in, in one of the families in that movie, um, they have like a big buffalo head for like their heirloom of their families that they were like fighting buffaloes, and I'm like, this is my family heirloom. This is my, this is my water buffalo thing. So I have it in the office there, and I'm, I'm going to move it to my new facility in the office as well, in front, in front of the desk.

Okay. Then I pro, I said that was my last question. Why? Why is a water buffalo coming from Colombia though? That doesn't, that doesn't fit either. Absolutely. It, you know what? It probably was one of Pablo's if, it could. Yeah. Right next to the hippos, right? It was the hippos. Exactly. If you don't know what we're talking about, Google Pablo's hippos, man. It's real and it's insane. Insert word in front of him. When I learned about that, it blew my mind 100%. Anybody who thinks they have money, you ain't got Pablo's hippos kind of money, man. That is, yeah.

This is a perfect answer. Hey, uh, thank you so much for hanging out. Uh, for people that do want to follow, support you, all that. Where can they find you? What's the best place? Uh, YouTube, DPR Cold Blood, and, uh, Instagram 100%. Uh, all available animals are not on Morph Market. So if you're looking for something specific, hit me up. And, um, yeah, YouTube, Instagram, and, uh, Morph Market.

I can, uh, tell you with zero hesitation, I've enjoyed thoroughly doing business with Antoine. The animals are beautiful. The deal felt good, and, uh, and just impeccable experience. So thank you very, very much, and you guys should buy with confidence. Uh, one Canadian to the next. I got Wilmer Rose next week on the show. Uh, that is the, when native the homeland, you know. All right. Right. Right. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Uh, he might live in Atlanta, but he's still got that accent, man. We, I know you think the Americans have the accents, but he's in, he's there now. So, um, tune in next week, guys. Antoine, stick around just one moment. Audience, thank you so much. Uh, I'll see you same place, same time next week. Cheers, guys.