The Ultimate Sales Masterclass (Tricks You Can Use To Close Anyone)

Your business is only as good as your offer. And this guy had the biggest launch of all time with his offer at $57.9 million. And by the way, it was so great that he ended up consulting on Hormos's epic launch that ended up breaking his own record. He is responsible for helping so many other people throughout the space, myself included. I'm so excited to have Jason Fladlin on. What's up, man?

How you doing, Ryan? It's been a long time in the coming. I'm excited.

Yeah, dude. So, I've got you, my bald co-host, Brian Dilla, today. He's ready to go. You guys look like opposites right now. You got like a looks like a MAGA hat, but says use brain on it.

Yeah. Yeah.

What does that mean? Use brain.

So, it's a funny story. This is my company now. Use brain. Okay. We're writing a book called Use Brain. And I got it cuz my wife would always tell the kids use brain. They'd come out with like their shirts inside out before school. They would put the knives in the spoons. And

she like European or something.

She is totally European.

That sounds like something a European would say.

You track that. Exactly. Right. So I'm like, use brain. This is catchy. So just on the flight here, Ryan, two people stopped me. One of them wanted a picture with the hat. So I think we got a hit on our head.

That's good marketing.

Yeah. So and we'll get into this, but I I believe success is more about success suck less. So don't do amazing things. Just don't do stupid stuff. And you do pretty good in this business. Yeah.

It's just base hits over and over again.

Just Hey, I'll get hit by the pitch if I have to get on base that way. I mean, I know you were a professional baseball player. Yeah. So, that's my motto.

And I don't think I'm a pro pro anymore cuz I didn't get hit by pitches. Get out of the way. So, nonetheless, um, you you've been in this internet space for almost 20 years now.

And I know that guys like I've had on the show, Russell Brunson and others, you know, we talked about Alex, like, you know, you're quoted in Alex's first book, $100 million offers more than anyone. So clearly like what you're talking about with making offers, with how to position your offer, create value, and then present and sell the offer, like you've been doing this a long time. How much do you think you've made over the years just with offers?

I know what we've grossed, which is much different than net, right? Like

what have you grossed?

Oh, I quit counting at over $250 million.

Wow. Wow.

Yeah. And my kids one day googled me and they thought I was worth $250 million and they're like, "Dad, why don't you spend all day with me?" I'm like, "The rents still do, right?" Like, I literally broke it down for them and did the math one day. So, I was helping Iman Gazi on a launch last year and we got a $10 million plaque from [ __ ] Yep.

They put it like consulting.com. They sent me one in the mail and the kids were like, "$10 million? How much did you make of that, Dad?" I'm like, "Let me show you a magic trick." And I penciled it down and I'm like out of 10 million,

how much do you think I made? They were all wrong by a lot. But nonetheless, uh the the impact directly has been over a quarter billion. Yeah. And then if you extend it out, it's probably been over a billion. Do you know who Steve Harward is?

Yeah.

Yeah. Prime uh corporate services. Those guys are legit. I love those guys to death. Steve and I were on a call last week and he was like, "Based on the training you did for my people and who we partner with and just the people I've sent you for consulting," he's like, "I wish we could track what that number of impact is." I'm like, "Well, if you had to guess, what would it be?" And he's like, "The average business is 8 million that we work with. I think you've got a 10% lift on average for those businesses." And then we ran it out and it was like a couple hundred million. So, not a bad not a bad impact.

Yeah. And I I've learned a lot from you just in the little we've chatted over the years. And um it's definitely like I I've just seen one little tweak can obviously make a massive lift on any offer, any presentation, marketing strategy, you know, all that good stuff. But um you know, all that being said, you said it's consulting.com. So did you buy that from Sam Ovens?

I mean, Ryan, this is why I love what you do, right? This game should be pretty straightforward. There shouldn't be too many politics involved. Let's find underserved markets and serve the hell out of them, right? Let's find people that are neglected and let's empower them in a way that makes them better. So whatever they pay us, it's a fraction compared to the value they get. Right? That's a clean business.

Yeah.

But it's not that clean in this business, right? So consulting is owned by this company. This company sells it to that company. That company acquires it this way and leverages it to help them in their launch in that way. And you know, it gets all kind of rats nested and all that stuff. So Iman acquired consulting.com through somebody who acquired it from Sam. Okay.

There's school over there on Alex's side and you know they're launching [ __ ] cuz Iman's an owner in [ __ ] Yeah.

I'm trying to consult both of these companies cuz I'm like a mercenary. Like you don't care who you're consulting.

I care about the end customer, right? So if Alex can reach these types of businesses and I can help him impact those businesses, sign me up. And if Iman is reaching a whole different demographic Yeah. cuz he has like 7 million subscribers on YouTube and when we do live streams there's 85,000 people on live when I come in and close for them,

right?

Um, I'm like I have 85,000 souls and if I can reach a 100red or 200 of them and completely positively change the trajectory of their life and get paid a ton of money to do that, right?

Like this is the equation and how God designed this earth. Like

and so that gets me very excited. I don't care about the politics, but it's naive to think that there isn't politics in this business. So, yeah.

I wouldn't even have considered them like competitors.

They're not.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But the ego is the biggest competitor of all.

Ego is a big competitor of business. That's why one of our core values right outside was

I saw that. I saw that. I love that. Yeah.

Yeah. Anytime we get these guys here egotistical, I'm just like, bro, I'm I don't want to hang out with that person. I don't want to have them back. I don't want to whatever.

Yeah. I mean, it it's cost me though, too, because as you know, Ryan, but most people don't know, I was never on social media for

cuz I'm like, I just want to go out and do

You're the guy behind the scenes that no one knew was helping all these people.

Yeah. And that was I should have some more ego than I had to put myself out there. Like I just it was never attractive to me to be the person. I wanted to be the conduit of the value.

And now I just realize the average person spends six hours a day looking at screens these days.

Yeah. and they mostly look at social. So, if I'm not where they're looking, I can't have impact where they're at. So, I finally let go of my own hang-ups about social because I'm not a fan of it. Yeah.

And said, I just got to go where they're at.

Yeah. I remember you started popping up on my feed and I was like, "Oh, dude, he's making content. Great." And then I reached out to you. I was like, "Dude, your content's actually good."

Thank you.

You know, like for a guy who um wanted to just be behind the scenes, never speak and all. I'm like, "Bro, you actually like have really good content. you should just stay with it.

Y

and then I remember I text you while I was golfing and uh you had put out this reel and you were like, "Hey, there's so many niche industries right now that just people murder it in. Like nobody else does it." You know, all these other things are like red oceans. Like we were talking about this with my team. It's like real estate right now is a very red ocean. It's like everybody's in it. The market's tough. Like it's hard when you're in that place. But then it's like I got M19 for golf and it's just this massive niche that is not being served and it just is hundred literally 100 times easier.

Yep.

Than the real estate market. Even the real estate market's TAM

is way bigger.

Yeah.

Like so what what do you mean by by that reel and and these niches that people could be in?

Yeah, it's a great question and we were just talking with my youngest daughter the other day. So my wife is in the opposite business that I'm in. Uh she sues airlines, so to speak. So in in the EU there is this thing that says if a flight is delayed by 3 hours or longer, you're entitled to compensation, but the airlines never pay it.

Oh.

So somebody has to go advocate for the passengers, they do, and they get a percentage of the funds that they recover.

Got it.

And this is what we would call an unsexy business. So we were talking to my daughter the other day about unsexy businesses are better than sexy businesses

because she was like, I want to be in these sexier businesses. And we're like, you probably don't, if you're trying to maximize return on investment. Uh, and the reason why unsexy businesses are such an opportunity is because generally people are just passionate about it get into it, but they don't have the business acumen. They don't have the marketing. They don't have the strategy. Like if you think back like when computers became big, they all were very ugly and very geeky and very nerdy. And then Apple says, "Let's make this a designer brand, not a computer brand." So they took an unsexy business and then they can add the sexiness to it. And a lot of people only think in sexy businesses because that's all they see.

They don't see the billionaire who learned how to do waste management,

but he exists. Brad Jacobs, he has this book called How to Make a Few Billion. It's really good. And he was and we told our daughter to read this book. He's in like waste management. He's in uh you know heavy machinery equipment moving it from one location to another. And those are where the billionaires are typically made, but you don't see them on the feed, right?

Um, so I like those businesses. You can take those businesses and then use the funds to acquire sexy businesses if you want to. Um, but we prefer to be under the radar if at all possible. And then she's like, "Well, Dad, why are you doing what you do?" And I'm like, "Well, I have a paintbrush and this is my canvas. It calls to me. I'm not doing it strategically and specifically because I'm trying to get the most return on my investment. I'm just built to do this. And so I

made a ton of money already. It's not about it.

And it calls to me, right? Like I like to teach. My father was a teacher. Um, but he was a high school business teacher. So he made this amount of money with it. Yeah. U but he instilled in me the value of teaching others. And I'm a learner and the best way to learn something is to teach it. So I'm just like I want to teach but I don't like the economics of teaching the traditional way. So, how can I teach in a way where I can have a high a high upside um but still be a teacher?

Yeah. You know what's crazy is so back to just M19 like we have like almost 300 members now and they're all in just these drastically different industries. There is no like uh majority of industry. And so I'm talking to these people in blue collar. I'm talking to people in wealth. I'm talking to people, very few info people actually. Yeah. Um, and the industries that I've been traditionally involved in like real estate and education and uh I'm seeing how much money they make in these unsexy businesses. They have no social media follow. And I'm like, "Wow, you guys,

this is unreal." I met a guy

last Friday. He took his jet here to Vegas to play golf.

To play that's an expensive golf round to take your jet by yourself to go play golf. And he's like, "Yeah, you know, I got this uh route business with FedEx and we do like 60 million a year at Jesus."

You know, massive margins just y

you know, delivering packages. And then he goes, "And then like I have this side hustle. Um I bought this quarry of land where um dinosaurs get dug up."

Wow.

And he's like, "Yeah, you know that business does uh quite a bit." I'm like, "What what does a dinosaur sell for?" He's like, "I can't say, but it's in the tens of millions."

Wow. That's his side hustle, digging dinosaurs.

What are we doing?

And I said,

"Why am I wholesaling one real about Man, dude, the best side hustle ever is digging up dinosaurs."

Yeah.

And I'm like,

there's you can't make money, right? I don't know what to tell you at this point.

Yeah.

it's a great point. Um, now with that said too, it's you got to find the intersection of what you're passionate about, what can make you a living in terms of of money and what's trending towards the future, too, cuz you don't want to be in a business where you are the dinosaur, so to speak.

Yeah. Um, and I think we have the opportunity now to make more of those decisions autonomously as individuals. But because we come from a paradigm still of a hundred years ago, a lot of kids that are coming up these days, they don't realize that these opportunities even exist. They don't seek for them. And then they get controlled by the people on social media who are telling them what to do. nine times out of 10 or maybe 99 times out of a hundred, their agenda doesn't align with your agenda because they're trying to push you through a funnel. They're trying to get you to co-opt into their vision and dream at the expense of your own. And so I

I don't like that and I'm trying to be something different than that on social right now. But the idea is to open up the possibility of there's so many ways to the top of this mountain. You don't want to betray yourself in the process, but you can find a path that is both financially liberating to you and also liberating to your soul.

So, you mentioned three things and I want to get real world examples of this. You said it's got to be a passion. It's got to be something that can make you money. And then what was the third again?

Um, good question.

It's trending forward.

Oh, yeah. It's trending forward.

Trending forward.

You made me think cuz I was like, "Oh, that's why M19's successful." Like, I love golf. um it definitely can make a lot of money and golf is on the rise.

Oh yeah.

So I'm like okay this is why it's succeeding like why are like what are some other examples that you've come across just to like give people real world stuff?

So let's do the inverse. Okay I came from a world Ryan where predominantly email ruled the day like you got emails you sent emails you mass marketed via email. My favorite channel of all time is email. you look at a social feed, uh, Facebook decides who you get to see. Yeah.

If you're looking at an email inbox, you get to decide who comes into your universe versus Meta whose intentions are murky or Google or whoever. Uh, so I still like email more, but the problem with email is now people communicate on Slack, they communicate on WhatsApp, they communicate in the DMs, they communicate via text message. And so email is less used than it's ever been. And technically speaking to deliver emails, it's getting harder and harder every single year. So email is trending downward. The other thing that I loved is affiliates. Like when we did the $57 million launch, I spent less than $200 in advertising to do those numbers. Yeah.

Insane, right? Um, not proud of it because if we knew how to do advertising, it would have been a hundred million or more, right?

Still be number one.

Yeah. I mean, this is the winner's curse, right? It's like you can't just win the golf tournament if you if you just hit a bogey on one hole that you knew you could have hit a par or better on. Like that haunts you more than the win helps you. So it's like

we didn't do advertising because we relied on affiliates

and affiliates were great because affiliates traditionally used email. But if email's going down and the real big players in affiliate marketing no longer do affiliate marketing because they now do social or they do paid advertising, then if you're on that boat and that boat is sinking, it doesn't matter how good of a captain you are, you're going to go down with the ship. Um, so that was what we noticed trending the other way. So if email's trending downward, it's still great, but it's trending downward. If affiliates are a great tool, and I know about more about affiliates than anybody, I still hold the record for biggest affiliate launch as an affiliate. We did $9.8 million in eight days as an affiliate for a product in 2015. Um, so I know the affiliate game. And then we did 57 million with affiliates on the other side, but they're trending downwards. And then direct response, which you know, I grew up on direct response. I was in a situation where people used to argue that you should never use direct response. and we used it and we got advantage because we were the only ones that were using it, one of the only ones, but that's also trending downward. Um, so that's tough because if social's trending upward and if paid advertisings are trending upward because the algorithms are easier to target, uh, it's more expensive, but we don't care how much we pay for it if we can get more back than what we pay for it. Yeah. And branding is now feasible for everybody. I teach my kids, you need to build a personal brand because when you go and apply for a college, your differentiation isn't going to be your grades. Some kid from India is going to have better grades than you and he's going to come and he's going to take your spot at Harvard or MIT, right? Like you got to have a differentiator if you want to get into a college. And if you have a social media channel that shows you this business that you started on the side or this social community project that you put in place, Harvard's going to pick you over somebody else, not because of your grades or your score, but because of your brand. Like everybody should be building a branded day, especially in an AI day. So branding is now feasible. Like here's a mind-blowing thing for for I'm still wrapping my head around this, Ryan. Now that we started doing social, we get this little DJI, we put it up when my wife and I go out to dinner. It's 10 minutes of our dinner, right? We have these date nights. They're incredible. And we just take 10 minutes and we go aside and we shoot a little bit of social and it's just kind of either like we have a couple talking points or we just speak off the top of our heads. Last time we did a dinner, we put that little camera down. We had just on one uh Instagram reel a half a million views. We kicked it to the Clippers. It's at 2.5 million views across all platforms. I can now have a dinner and it reaches 2.5 million people. Yeah,

that's insane. Like blows my mind. And so like if we have the capabilities where that's even possible. I'm not saying you can do that for most people listening without a lot of reps, a lot of practice, all that all that other kind of stuff, but it is now possible. So the biggest limit of brand in the past was you couldn't reach enough people and you couldn't reach them consistently. Now you can. Now that's actually possible. So brand is on a trend upward. Direct response is flatlining. It's going down and then going stable. Emails going down and then stable. Information products are having a crisis right now because people used to go and try to find information couldn't find it so they would pay for it. But we can find information. I think a majority of Google searches now are zero click because you search for it the Google AI gives you the summary of it.

They're not even clicking anymore.

You don't even have to click anymore. So information has been democratized. So in an informationheavy business, it's stabilizing. It's not dead. People don't use brain. This is a whole I'm writing a book on this whole conversation of how we don't understand reality very well because our brain has all these blind spots. So because it's trending downwards doesn't mean it's dead. It just means that it's stable. But we want to try to catch things that are trending upwards because we can put the same effort in and get a wildly return bigger return. Yep.

Yep. Yep.

That makes sense. I've been saying it for a while. I noticed the trend in info a couple of years ago. I'm like, dude,

I do not like where this is headed. Um, and then now I just see it even with AI and everything else. Even like when you were talking about, yeah, you know, my kids going to college, I'm like, yeah, I don't even know about that.

Yeah. Well, one out of three I think should go to college. The other two, I'm not sure.

My kids are so young. I'm like, I don't even know that college is going to exist when it's time.

It very well might not. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. But, you know, they're they're the poster child of information. And it's like, dude, why would I spend a hundred grand in four years and go learn this thing for free quicker?

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So, yeah, we have to figure out now. So, so let's talk about some more trends, right? cuz this is what I get excited. The marketplace only cares what you can do for it now. And I love that. That's one of the rare places where I find parody in this world where it's not something based upon what should be. It's very exact and the market will tell you what it likes and what it doesn't like. Yeah, it's fair in that way. It's brutal, but it's fair. And so if the market says we don't want it this way anymore, we want it that way. If I can find a way to get it to them that way and get it better than anybody else, then I'll get the biggest return because of the most value that I can provide. And so every day is a ground zero. We're starting over and we're like, okay, what does the market need right now to have impact? So if information is widely available, then how you sift and sort through that information, how you decide to make decisions based upon that information, that now becomes the challenge. So, the brands that can help people deal with this overwhelm are the brands that are going to get the biggest return. And these are newer brands that are popping up, which is exciting for anybody listening. You're not behind with these established brands because a lot of them have biases in place on how things used to be done. And they're going to get smoked by the people that are seeing, well, this is a new environment. Launching these products the way we used to launch them isn't going to cut it anymore.

Yeah. So give me just like three just off the top just unique ideas that fit all three boxes.

Yeah. So I love the model. Model number one is we give away everything and then we only sell to the 0.1% of people that will pay the top dollar. Right. So around a golf with you cost what?

Well the first version of it was 2500 bucks. Then it was 5K. Then it was 10K and now it's evolved into just a membership.

So this is called price elasticity right? What do you think the upper threshold that you could charge if you were trying to charge the highest number and get like say 10 clients a year?

Um, if it was just golf or could I include like other things?

Include other things.

Well, I mean now we've got 300 people on this

and it's made millions,

but the price I don't think it fits that model cuz the price is actually less.

So, let's just simplify. If you were only going to do the round of golf the way that you were doing it.

Yeah. Just a round of golf and that's it.

Yeah. And if say you could only get 10 clients.

Yeah.

How much could you charge at the upper end before you think you could break that model?

Uh if I really promoted it heavily uh I don't know 25 grand.

25 grand.

I say 50 maybe. I don't know

if you could only sell 10

and I like that was all I did and just focused on Yeah, maybe. But I I would include other stuff to make it more valuable than just the round. I would suggest you wouldn't have to include other stuff and you could get bare minimum $100,000 for a round of golf.

He sells one-on-one coaching right now for $100,000.

So we we were talking about the guy who took the private plane just to come to play a round of golf and you said that's an expensive round of golf, right?

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So for for a very small portion of the market as a percentage price is negligible. Whether it's $10,000 or $100,000 or even a million dollars, it doesn't matter to them. Right now, as a percentage, they're small. But if you actually run the numbers, there's thousands of them that exist

just in America alone.

Yeah. who have a disproportionately high affinity towards golf

and align with your values specifically, Ryan, like and only you and nobody else,

right?

And so for them, whether it's 10,000 or 100,000 or even a million, it's not going to make a difference. Now we narrowed it down to 10 people. Yeah.

So in the past, how will we get those 10 people? It would be a nightmare. Like you would have to like write books and put them in FBOs's when they were flying private. You'd have to go to these shows where they're buying horses, raceh horses, all that kind of stuff, connect with them, politic with them. Nowadays, you just hit the feed and you and you reach 10 million people and in 10 million people, maybe seven of them

can go to the highest end of price elasticity possible. And you don't have to sell anything to anybody else. If all you wanted to do, and I know your aspirations are higher than this, but for most people, if they say, "I want to make a million a year." And if I only could sell a hundred people something for $10,000 a piece, there's your million. So, I just have to I have to create content that will attract in the sea of masses a h 100red people that will pay me $10,000, right? And that's an easier way for most people to make a million dollars than any other model that I know. And the price elasticity these days is insane because to the right very tiny percentage of that market money is not an issue whatsoever. And the way we get them is through the masses like radio used to be back in the day or TV used to be back in the day.

Yeah.

We we went from that to like hyperargeting specific Google pay-per-click ads. You know, if she was 55 years old, menopausal Asian woman looking to lose weight, we could target her, right? Yeah. And now you know full circle. Value is

what you're charging, bro.

That's his point.

Step your game up, dog.

Value is loosely correlated with price,

right?

Yeah. The perception of value is highly correlated with price. And so they will pay this guru a million dollars because the perceived value going into the deal is incredibly high based around all of the mystique and, you know, the persona and the possibility. People will pay an infinite amount of money for possibility. Uh, but they can only appreciate actuality after they've experienced it.

That's right.

So, so you should capture those experiences and then you should be like, "Okay, well, if I were to create something for you that you would pay a million dollars and be happy with, what else could I do for you?" And then you can have those conversations. Those are some of my favorite ones, hypotheticals. I say, "Listen, I'm not asking you to pay me a million dollars.

How did you make 57 million? What was the offer?

So, this is a great story, right? Um, I had this guy come to me. His name is Dan Hollings. And Dan Hollings was the marketer behind The Secret. Remember that smash hit, right? All right. So, this is the This is

demonic book. Yeah.

This is the game I'm trying to put out there to the world right now. This is why I'm I'm trying to get out there. I'm struggling, but I'm trying to make the message. So, so the law of attraction.

Yeah.

The secret. The whole mystique around it is you put it out. It's like what is the law of friction? I don't even know what it means. Right?

You just put good thoughts out into the universe and what you want and the universe gives it back to you.

There you go. Right. So game over. Nothing else to do. Law of attraction. So they law of attracted their success. This is the public line on when they're on Oprah talking about all this stuff, right? And like the universe made it happen. So Dan Dan made this joke of call me Mr. Universe, right? because he was designing some of the viral campaigns behind that and they also attracted no money at the end of the day. That whole business collapsed, right? So, they reached a lot of people. But I don't care how positive you think. I don't care how abundant-minded you are. If you don't run a proper P&L,

right? The spreadsheet is going to attract problems for you eventually, right?

So, so Dan walked away from that deal without being properly compensated. Let's just put it that way, right? So, there's something to be said about when you're pushing a message to other people. In psychology, we call this projection. You generally need to hear the message you're telling other people the most. Uh, so Dan comes to us, he's disillusioned. He's like, "Listen, I hate this business. I don't want to do it anymore. I just want to teach." He was a professor. Uh, so we're like, "Cool. We'll publish you." This is back in 2010. We're like, "We will publish you and we will handle all the stuff." He knew we would pay him and take care of it and he could just teach. And he goes, "I got this new thing. It's called mobile marketing.

It might be a hit one day." Like, you guys got to remember, How old are you, Ryan?

36.

36. You're such a baby, man. Like, Jesus. So, like, we used to back in the day, we had some of the first software when you would go to Olive Garden. Olive Garden would detect, are you on a mobile device or not? If you are on a mobile device, go to m.olivegarden.com olivegarden.com instead and serve a dedicated mobile website for mobile users because the web was not mobile friendly. Yep. It didn't have adaptive browsers or any of that stuff. What to speak of apps? Uh, so Dan's like, "This is the future. Mobile marketing. I've studied it. I'm going to teach on it." I'm like, "I don't know if it's the future and I I I hadn't have a smartphone at the time even." So we published them. It did really well. Uh, and then Dan went off, got on his feet again, did his own thing. And then a couple years later, we hit this Amazon craze when everybody wanted to get online and start selling physical products on Amazon. And so this is where we sold over $25 million of products on teaching people how to be successful on Amazon. That was a nice trend upward. Uh, and Dan got involved in that with us and we helped him and we published him on some Amazon stuff. So he cycled back, he came back, this is 5 years later, uh, and crushed it. And then five years after that, he comes to us and he says, "I got this new thing." This is in 2020. And he's like, "It's crypto." And I'm like, "I hate crypto." Uh, in fact, I had to be tricked to get on the meeting with him. So, my business partner at the time, he says to me, he goes, "I'm going to ask you to take a meeting. I'm not going to tell you what it's about. Promise me you'll show up to the meeting and just be open-minded." I go, "Okay, for you, I will 100% do that." So, I get on the meeting and Dan's there and Dan's like, "I got this crypto stuff." And I hate crypto. I still hate crypto. I'm not a fan of crypto, but I like the approach of how he was using crypto. It wasn't moonshots. It wasn't big risk exposures. It was like

it was like day trading crypto.

Not even that, right? It was more of like a dividend process like you would do back in the days of stock market. And I was like, this is cool. This is what the guys who cracked the stock market back in the day did. They weren't reckless. They were smart about it. But they found arbitrage because any new system has arbitrage. And we could circle back to arbitrage. It's one of my favorite subjects. So I said to him, Dan, and this is what I said, and if anybody takes anything out of this podcast, take this. This has been at the heart of all of my biggest successful launches. I said, Dan, your system is working great, but here's the problem. It's like, what's the problem? I said, Everybody you've shown it to is a friend of yours or a successful business person.

So if I go out there and I pitch this thing, the market's going to say, "Yeah, either you're making this stuff up because they're your friends. They'll say whatever you want to say, right? or it only works for people that are business people or it only works because you're buddies with them and you'll do whatever it takes to help them succeed. So I said, Dan, if I'm going to go sell this thing, we have to remove this objection. And Ryan, this is a big secret uh to my success is I don't try to get people to say yes. I try to prevent them from having a reason to say no.

Right? So everybody's pushing like, oh, we're going to get them to say yes by adding this bonus, this value, this thing. And I'm like, let's remove every reason to say no and then yes will become the logical answer. So I devised this beta test and it is my favorite marketing funnel of all time. I use this as many times as I can with my clients as possible. And it goes like this. Email sends out or whatever platform you're using. It goes, I don't know if this will work or not. That's the hook, right? I have this idea. It's worked really well for me and for a few people that I've tried it on, but I don't know if it will work for you. We have no idea if when you pay us to be part of this training program that we're going to launch if it will work. You could lose everything because this is totally unproven.

Yeah.

It's an experiment.

Yeah.

So, we're only taking on beta testers to see if we can teach it and to see if you can get results with it. So, that's what we launched here. So, we went to an audience. We have really good affinity with a lot of clients because over the years I've helped a lot of people make millions and millions of dollars. And so they will try stuff out if I ask them to and they will pay me to try stuff out. So we launched this thing initially and we're like we don't know how to teach it. We don't know how many modules it will be. We have no schedule. We don't even have a brand name. We don't even know what we'll call this thing. We had a working title called the plan. And that became the name of the thing. It was actually a pretty good name. Uh, but we're like, we're calling it the plan for now. So we launch it. We take 18 people in at $10,000 a piece. So we get paid for beta. Now, this is important for me to charge for beta because I have a price anchor. So, if I go to the audience, I can't say, "We gave it away for these people for free. Now, you pay for it." That's a hard sell. I say, "These people paid $10,000 for a hands-on version of this program that you can buy for just $2,500 to get, you know, the polished final version of that's a positive price anchor. It's like, damn, I just saved $7,500, right?" Uh, so we run we run this beta group, and here's the most important part of it. We said, "We have to track all of your results and you have to agree that we can show your results to anybody whenever we want, wherever we want, however we want, and if you want to agree to that, you're not part of the beta." So, they all agreed to that. So, when we launched the first version of this, we had 18 people. I didn't say, "Let me show you the success stories of the three who were successful." I said, "I'll show you all 18. I'll show you everybody. All the winners, all the losers, all the averages, above average, below average." And it was the easiest webinar of all time. We told a little bit of the story and they said, "Here's how everybody's doing." And we showed every trade of everybody publicly available that anybody could see. And proof more than anything will determine the success of the product. People will buy the most when risk is the least.

And the more you can remove risk, the more you can sell. And so instead of trying to add value first, this is what we do last. We subtract risk first. Because if you can do anything and you could never fail, what would you do? That's the ultimate question to ask any coaching client cuz we censor ourselves cuz we're so afraid of failure. So, we remove risk as much as possible. We launch this out. But here's where it's cool. We still launch beta. We said, "Hey, listen. These people that paid us 10,000, we did that with a lot of one- on-one coaching. This is now a group coaching. So, it's not the same. So, I don't know if we can replicate their success with this new program." So, we launched beta again to a group and we gave them a $2,500 price point instead of a 3500. And we launched three rounds of beta. Every single time we round we launched group beta. Now, we got better cuz we could take the feedback cycle from the market. Here's what they got. Here's what they were confused with. Here's what they need help with. We improved the product every time. They knew this is a work in progress. This isn't a perfect product. It's going to be bumpy. And so by the third iteration of that, we were able to do a first massive public launch with a perfected product because we had went through three feedback cycles in a month and a half time. And that's how in 226 days I went from that meeting that I had to be tricked to be on to $57.9 million in sales. Insane.

That is crazy.

Yeah.

So was the 59 million a webinar or can you explain that event?

Yes. So, you know, the first round 180,000 was in the beta one-on- ones. Then we did a group beta where we sold that out in I don't

sell it via webinar.

Via webinar. Yeah. Uh, everything that we did after that was via webinar. So, we would do we did three beta launches of webinars and then we did two major public launches.

And the major public ones were where the majority came from.

Uh, yeah. And it's it's difficult because we don't do webinars the way most people would do it. If I have affiliates and they're big affiliates, I will do individual webinars for those affiliates. So, we were doing two a day webinars for 22 days straight. Basically, you would do a noon webinar and a 4 p.m. webinar.

How long were they?

Well, here's a good story for you, right? So,

every great webinar host has many stories.

So, we're doing a webinar with the late great Bob Proctor. Are you familiar with Bob?

I've heard of him. Oh my god. I don't know a ton about him. Just an unbelievably blessed soul. He was the longest trainer in personal development history. He had trained for like 55 years. He passed away a few years ago. Uh, and we had this webinar and we had we had the general webinar that morning. So every affiliate that we didn't do a personal webinar with, we said just promote this major webinar. So we had 11,000 people register for this webinar. We're 4 hours in almost and we still have 3,000 people live. Right.

Yeah. But here's the problem.

They're still in. They're still in

and and there's at least a million dollars more available, but we have to end the webinar early because we booked the next webinar on the same Zoom account. So, we had the webinar with Bob right after that. And you know, Bob's list was hyper responsive. Um, and so we had to do that webinar right after that. So, with great reluctance, I had to end it. But generally, we were going 3 to four hours per webinar and we were doing two webinars back to back. So, we're doing six to eight hours of webinars a day. you you were doing it.

So Dan would do the main presentation and I would do the close. So the Jedi move here, Ryan, and this is a model that it's hard for people to wrap their heads around. Once you really truly understand how to sell something, you don't even have to do the main presentation. You just have to get them to the point they see the offer and then that's when the real selling occurs. So these days with the majority of clients, I just come in and do the close.

Got it.

Yeah. So what percentage um will close like immediately versus like man uh you got to take them through hours after the pitch just objection handling all that stuff and then you know post webinar like how does it usually play out?

It's a great question. So and and this goes back to this whole concept. So in the book that I'm writing use brain which hopefully I'll get done this year. I've been slow as hell on it, but uh uh the idea here is if we can remove the obstacles, then success becomes easy and obvious. And so instead of adding things to do, we try to remove things that we don't need to do. Like this is my greatest strategical insight into this business. So this is what I always tell all my clients. So we were tracking the amount of leads who opted into this launch versus those who bought. If you had to guess as a percent, how much of a percent do you think we closed? of anybody who opted in for this launch of the plan versus those that bought

A $2,500 product.

Yeah.

And it was free.

Uh, opted in was free to come to the webinar, right?

But they were already paid people of another program.

Not necessarily. And by the way, some of these lists that we were working with were like very out of market. They were not traders. They were not business people. They were like positive thinkers. So like my the way I would back of napkin it is let's just say 30% show up of the opt-in.

Let's just say leads though if I'm just

Well, I'm already back. Okay. So 30% show, you close 10% of the 30%.

Yeah.

So is that 3%?

I I I think so. I'm not sure. Right. Uh, and this is important and this is this is a lesson for anybody because I know most people don't do webinars. So like let's back it to something relatable. is uh if you are going to create a campaign of any sort, a majority of the people are not going to buy even if they should buy, right? It's just a fact, right? And so for us, we track real numbers to be as clear as we possibly can. So in the webinar business, it's like people will get very fuzzy on the numbers. They're like, well, this many people were on live when we started pitching and we closed this many, so therefore our conversion rate is X, right? We track based on opt-in. So when somebody opts in the beginning of the campaign versus when the campaign end, how many people bought, right? So we closed an astronomically high rate of 6.84%.

That is high.

It's insanely high, right?

What's your normal one to three?

I'm super happy if we can do 1%. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but 6.8%. Now the universe on that, I can't remember the numbers exactly, but we only reached I think a couple hundred thousand opt-ins. So we weren't reaching millions and millions of people. Um, but 93% of people said no. And it was some of the greatest marketing that was ever designed. Right.

Yeah.

If I could be so humble.

The best ever launch.

Yeah. Yeah. So, it's like we had the best proof ever. We had the best story ever. We had something meaningfully

a product that was affordable to most people, right?

locked because it was during COVID. Everybody was locked in. They were on Zoom. Crypto was hot, right? So we had all the factors within our control maximized and we had black swans that were positive outside of our control that we could also leverage, right? Like you couldn't draw it up any better and still 93 out of a 100 people who were qualified said no. So like when we did the launch with Iman last year, we were we're putting in the first time we did a launch, we put a half a million people through that funnel. And I said to those guys like what would success look like on the launch? And they go, "Well, we would like to sell I think was like if we sold 5,000 units at $2,000 a piece. That's a $10 million launch."

Yeah.

And I said, "Cool." Um, so if we can get it to 7,500 versus 5,000, then we increase because the costs are all the same because you got to pay the same for the leads no matter what. We could easily add 2 million net to the bottom line. Yep. So instead of focusing on 500,000 people, how do we focus on 2,000 people within those 500,000 people in order to get them to say yes? And that's a really good thought experiment to happen because all we're doing is moving 495,000 people that are going to say no to 493,000 people that are going to say no, knowing most people are going to say no. Like that's the natural state. So to go back to your original point is the reason we have to sit with them for so long on these webinars is we have to help them understand if no makes sense for them.

Yeah.

No is automatic but should it be automatic? So there are follow-ups, there are um sitting down with them with different campaigns and re-engaging them from different perspectives. All of these things are really important because what you need to do is help somebody understand what the best decision is for them. And that's not easy. Like you have to examine the whole totality of what's at stake.

Yeah.

Because I don't want somebody to make a bad decision. I want them to make the right decision. And the right decision might be Yes.

Yeah. What about um with that specific launch? Did any close over the phone or was all just direct check?

No phones. I hate phones. Yeah.

So everything you do is direct checkout.

Yeah. Yes. I could I could probably be a hundred million richer if I didn't. But uh Yeah. Why don't you like phones?

So, this is my own bias. I came up in a day when the first guys that put phone rooms in place just burned customers and laughed all the way at the bank. Uh, I just got such a sour taste in my mouth on how the industry was formed. Phone sales these days and I and I consult with all the biggest guys on phone sales. You know, they hire me to help their phone closers close more. I just personally don't like having a phone team. I like direct to cart and I'm really good at it. Some say I'm the best in the world at it, so I kind of stay in my domain.

But yeah, I mean, phone cells could work out really good to enhance that. But

I think it kind of depends on the product, right? Like if you're selling an info product, it's like,

you know, this is what it is.

I mean, there's never been a time where if you can touch somebody more personally and do it in an ethical way that that will ever harm you. It's just a matter of what's the cost and what's the trade-off if if I'm putting more emphasis on phone than I am on direct to cart. Well, I'm just thinking, okay, so let's take M19 Golf. Everything is just we don't run webinars. They just apply. They're like, "That sounds cool." They hop on a call with a membership director. It's like, "Hey, this is the price." You know, the thing.

Brilliant.

Because I I've just thought like I love webinars and I've I do a lot of them for different things. You know, some are direct checkout, some are book a call, but it's like that avatar in my opinion is not like, "Bro, I'm not sitting here for four hours to learn about a golf club." Like, bro, I'm just going to buy it or I'm not.

Totally. So in most

and I want personal concierge level experience.

So a webinar is a tool but it's not the only tool. So I'm a huge fan of like a Charlie Munger philosophy of running business. Charlie Munger was, you know, Buffett's right-hand man, billionaire, lived forever, was happy in life. So we have to be in this business. We have to be careful of how many people follow a model where they're happy when they're 80 years old. And you're going to find, we are not in a mature enough market to really know what the conclusion is, but my guess is most people that are running most digital marketing businesses, you're not going to find that many contented 80 80 year olds at the end of the day that could look back and say, man, I was happy that the way that that business worked. So you say, well, who can we look at that was happy who ran a business and in their 80s look back and were satisfied in life. And Munger is one of those examples. And Munger talks about being multidisciplinary across multiple domains. And so a lot of guys are like, "Webinar is the tool. I have the webinar hammer and everything is a nail." Or, "The phone is the tool. I have the phone. That's the hammer. Everything is a nail." Or whatever the case may be. A super successful business owner is not going to hop on a webinar. They're not going to sit through a 45 or 60 minute pitch. Super successful business owner, the number one thing that they're going to uh utilize to determine if they're going to make a purchasing decision is word of mouth referral from a trusted source, right? And so it's like if we're going to go into that market, that's what we should optimize for. If we're cold or if we're warm, we should look at our existing market and say who within the universe of our customers that we have positive relationships with that I can design very specific solutions for for these advanced businesses. Um, most super successful businesses do not get catered to enough because they're a very small portion of the market and so people think, well, I want to reach the whole market. But we talked earlier about the golf thing. If you engineered the right offer, you could easily charge $100,000 per person and have them happier to pay you a $100,000 if you slightly redesigned your delivery than what they pay you now, even though they might pay you a less now. So we just offer how do we sell it? And so a webinar is a useful tool in masses. Like when Hermosi does his book launches, a webinar makes sense because you're not going to be able to talk to two million people in 3 days any other way, right? That totally makes sense. When we do the launches with Iman, uh, we're, you know, putting a million opt-ins through a launch sequence and you're not going to be able to capture them any other way at scale. Those businesses make total sense to do webinars in.

What I found fascinating about Hormos's launch and I mean since you were somewhat a part of it is is the fact of like okay I thought originally because I think his first well not his first book but his first book launched where he I don't think he sold anything other than just join

um but it was like okay uh that was like I don't know a couple hours right and so I'm like okay he's going to probably do this thing this a few hours again and whatever, you know, and then all of a sudden it becomes literally a 72-hour pitch.

Yeah. You

know, I can spill some tea on that. Yeah. Yeah. So, all credit to Alex, right? Like they did everything end to end optimally in a way I've never seen done before cuz like the ads were incredible. The the way they ran they ran the ads to the event were amazing. They liquidated ad spend before the event even went live. So, that pre-funnel before the live event,

What was the pre-funnel?

Uh, I can't even remember exactly what it was, but there was like you opted in for free and then there was like a $29 upsell or something like that.

Oh, buy the book early or something.

And then there was like a higher ticket upsell,

like a $500 one

and then I think they even had a higher one than that, right? Uh, and then there was obviously the book launch itself and then there was upsells within the book launch and everything. Uh, you know, the the components they put into the offer top-notch. Everything about it ran smoothly. It's hard for somebody to be good at all phases of the businesses business. Generally, they're really good at one phase, they're okay at the other phases. And so, God, that takes an unbelievably amount of discipline. And most people shouldn't model that. It's hard to be well and we know how much Alex works, right? So, it's like you got to work that hard probably, too, cuz like if you're going to be that great at traffic and that great at conversion and that great at fulfillment, those are the three key areas of business. That's insane to even be world class at one of those. How do you become world class at three distinctly different activities? So, hats off to them. They did all that stuff unbelievably well, right? Where they rely on my expertise on the conversion side. So, when it comes to conversion, I understand conversion at a level I don't know if anybody else can rival, right? And I'm just based upon my track record, right? Um, so Alex texts me one Sunday morning for $100 million leads. was the book launch before this book launched.

And he starts texting me. We start going back and forth and I remember cuz I was just getting ready to go to church. Uh, and so I I just like I got to call him cuz like I I want to get to church. So I I just call him up and he says we're going to do this book launch and he wanted to do these packages which is what $100 million money models ended up being is all these different packages like an ABC if you buy this many books or this many or this many high ticket, right? And he was planning on doing that for $100 million leads. And I asked him the first question. I said, "Why?" Like, I'm not opposed to it, but I just want to know the justification. Why cash in on all the goodwill that your brand has built up to this point? Because if you just keep extending the value, it will compound. Compounding is the greatest leverage force in all of business. So if you can keep pushing off a launch as far as humanly possible, the launch will be even bigger. Uh, and and so we went back and forth for several hours just on what's the downside of doing the launch, what's the downside on creating these packages, not even the strategy involved in the packaging, right? Just does it make strategic sense in order to do this or not, right? And then we determined, I mean, he determined it. I just guided him through it that no, we're going to do the book launch. So we then did a whole day of consulting. Uh, so we spent six hours on the packaging. Uh, we spent like five and a half hours and then the other half an hour was on the webinar structure itself. Um, and we sat there, we optimized for the packaging, the ABC, all this kind of stuff. And then that was it. And then he texted me a couple days before the launch and he goes, "Oh, by the way, we're not doing any of the any of those packages anymore. We're just going to do basically get the book for 10 bucks." Right. Yeah. Which is brilliant. And I I texted back. I said, "Do you remember the first question that I asked you?" And he goes, "It still haunts me to this day." Something like that. Right. So, they extended the goodwill on that launch. Yeah.

And then on the next launch, uh, when we were talking about that launch, conceptually high level, um,

he said he said to me, he goes, "And don't worry, this time we're going to go very long." Because last time the book launch was like 45 minutes in and out, right? Yep.

And so I'm like, "Fantastic." Because I'm all about asymmetric risk-reward. If the risk is I only spend a couple more hours today than I otherwise would and the worst thing that happens is I continue to help people make decisions and give them value independent of whether they buy from me or not. There is no downside to that other than a few hours of my time. And the upside is almost unlimited, right? It's like Ryan, my biggest reel right now on Instagram, I got 1.1 million views from a reel that we posted in the last 15, 20 days. And it's literally a clip from me pitching for Iman. And I have this I'm closing for Iman. I'm selling his clients on buying his program. And it's so good in and of itself, even though it's a pitch, that it gets a million views on Instagram. And so if you really know the game, the bestselling in the world is as valuable as the content that people are giving out for free that they think is educational. And so Alex is a pro at this. He's as good as anybody is. We can sell for longer. The way we sell is consultative and valuable in and of itself. So if we miss the sale, which we probably will because most people will say no, we still make them better. Our cost is just a little bit more time. That's it. And the upside is infinite. So why wouldn't we? I don't know. But this is one of the secrets I figured out that other people haven't yet. Yeah.

Yeah. It's just brute force of selling non-stop.

It's also a demonstration of commitment,

right?

I will sit with my clients longer than the next guy. And so if my clients have to pick between me and the next guy, they pick me instead of the next guy. Yeah.

Yeah. It was fascinating to watch. And it it uh it goes back to, you know, you see you've seen it with live selling and infomercials and QVC and all this stuff forever.

Yep.

Like it's been around forever. Yeah.

And I just never saw anyone in the info space do it.

You know, and there's this thing called sunk cost fallacy. Buyers will buy things even if they shouldn't simply because they're like, well, if I don't buy, I've wasted four hours of my time. Right? They're not using brain. And it's not a very good decision-making process. And you know, time shares capitalize on this.

Oh my gosh. Yeah, they do.

They basically say, "I'll lock you in this room and the only way to get the key is to buy a time share."

And they're like, "Shit, buying the time share is better than sitting in this room. Here's my money." Right? This is called a double bind in psychology. Uh, so that's that's a manipulative, unethical way of using it,

right? But an ethical way of using it is to say if people are serious about something, the more perspectives I can give them in which they can decide whether to buy or not, the more empowering it is to them and the more I can spend time with them, the more I can understand the deeper psychology of how my customers make decisions. So when people ask me, Jason, how did you get so good at this? I said, it's really simple. I spent four hours a week for 50 weeks straight talking to 20 or 30 people at a time on a webinar until I figured out reasons that make them buy that don't even make sense. And now I can use those.

Yeah.

Yeah. And and so I found a way to sell where it's valuable whether you buy or not. I'm not talking about the webinar. I'm talking about the closing. I'm talking about the hard selling. People get value on how they're being sold the way that we teach it. And so even if they don't buy, it's the it's the same as if we were just giving them value when we weren't pitching them. You can do both.

You know what I've seen that happen, too, is at uh Russell Brunson's events, like everyone at his event is like, "Oh, dude, he's about to pitch. We got to go in and watch the pitch."

Like, I want to go in and be sold and see it.

So, I have a funny Russell story, right? All right. So, we joined Joe Polish's 100K Mastermind uh in we were the first group ever to join it. I can't even remember how far back this was, 2016, something like that. And Russell and I get into an Uber together. It's the first time I met him in person. And Russell turns to me and he says, "You are the reason I wrote Expert Secrets, the book that he's I don't sold of a million copies of it right now." And he was like, "The the things you taught about belief shifting, changing people's beliefs, unlimiting limiting beliefs." He goes, "That was the motivation for me on how I wrote Expert Secrets." And I remember walking away feeling so happy. I'm like, "That is awesome. I love it." Then later on, I'm like,

"Nobody ever knows that that ever existed, that conversation. It wasn't captured anywhere and I wasn't dedicated in the book. How do you know? I now

I'm like, damn it." Uh, cuz like I I don't care who gets the credit, but if I have that game and I want to empower it, but I was able to see how Russell took it.

Yeah.

And and applied it in a new way that I never saw possible because

that is the name of the game. At the end of the day, if you have a limiting belief that says I cannot be successful, it doesn't matter what I give you. You will find a way to fail with it. But if I can remove the belief that I can't be successful, then I could sell you an average product and you can become successful with it. Now, obviously, we want to sell the best product possible, but the best product to a limited mindset will lose every single time. So, everything that we do when it comes to selling is removing these limiting beliefs. So if the worst thing that happens is somebody walks away and they no longer have a limiting belief.

Pay me money or don't pay me money, I've won at my job because I've empowered you. And so we, you know, when we were selling a lot, this is a lot of what I do is I got to listen to what you're saying and understand

is this belief serving you or not? And if it doesn't serve you, can we try on a different belief? And this is how I close. And so I I had this guy once, his name was Jean. I remember this very very clearly. He says, "Jason, uh, I'm not sure if I should buy this or not because, uh, I'm not confident that I can be successful with this." And I said, "How would you know when you are confident or not?" Like, what would it take for you to say, "Yes, I'm confident and now I will buy this product." And he never thought about it before cuz most people don't. A limiting belief is like some thought pops in my head. I accept it as gospel and that's the end of the equation, right? This is how the brain functions. And so he says, "Well, I'd have to see success first to know I'm confident." And I says, "Jean, that's interesting. But how would you see success if first you needed confidence to even attempt it? Does that even make sense? And it doesn't make any sense. Right? If you need to see success to feel confident, but you can't take action to become successful until you're confident,

Yeah.

you are stuck."

That's the paradox.

You will lose every time. So I said, can I suggest a different way in which you could evaluate confidence or not? And he says, yes, I would love to hear it. And then we go through the whole process. And then he I said and then he tries it on. He goes, "Okay, that makes sense." And then he goes and he buys. Whether he buys or not is inconsequential. What is more important is he's now got a new way to evaluate when he should take action on something or not. Whether it's buying a product or making a decision in his business or even how he lives his life. He's now thought, "Confidence used to represent this to me and it only got me this far. Now confidence represents this to me and now I can do things I couldn't do before." And so people will listen to you pitch forever because you are making their life better regardless of whether they buy from you or not. And that's how you get more people to buy from you. So it works.

I don't pitch long enough. I

No, I don't pitch long enough. Nobody does. Yeah.

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Yeah. So, I have a 15-part formula.

It's not that difficult. Well, after doing it a thousand times, but I you start with a hook, then you go into the pain, then the gain, and then the position. So, let's start there. That's the introduction.

Uh,

wow. That's one part.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. It's the first five to 10 minutes of the webinar, right?

Okay.

Yeah.

Now, I'm learning because I get I got into social, I think, oh, I know hooks because I know webinar hooks. And so, if I get on social, I'll use the same hooks. Not the same whatsoever. Like, completely different.

Different than ads, social,

it's its own can of worms, right? Um, so cuz they already have decided to show up. So, you don't have to hook their attention to grab them and keep them focused for the next minute or two, right? You have to hook them instead in a way that makes them more desirous to see your offer later on when you present it. Okay?

Whether they know you have an offer or not.

I mean 80% got to know there's an offer.

I always reveal the offer very early in the presentation that there will be one that's made. Uh, so the hook that I typically my my thinking is when somebody comes to a webinar in the first few minutes they're like I've never had an experience like this before in my life. So that's where I start. So, the one that I teach that gets the most value for the most people is a pop quiz. So, I'll start off with like, all right, to set the stage, I have five questions for you. And the answers to these questions are going to determine your success or failure when it comes to XYZ. Are you ready? If so, type ready into the chat so you get engagement right away. Question number one, true or false? And then you give a question. The answer is usually something non-intuitive that also eliminates a belief that would prevent them from saying yes later on and then sets up part of your content, right? Can you give an example?

I will 100% give examples because this is a lot, right? So, um, let's talk about real estate.

Okay.

Um,

yeah, give me the real estate. Let's make this apply this all to me.

Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't need a real estate. I don't need a golf one. We're going to

Real estate is a broad topic. So, I'm assuming you specifically have something inside of the real estate niche.

Yep.

Wholesale, right? Um, so what's a big misconception about wholesaling that people think is true that is not? That if they knew the real answer would help them be successful.

Um, that was a lot. Uh, that they think is true.

That is not.

Okay, let's let's take it even simpler. Do you need a lot of money, right?

Yeah. Do you need a lot of money?

Yeah. True or false? You need to be well capitalized to have any chance of success in the wholesale business. And the answer is false. While money can be helpful to you, there are three strategic things that we discover that are way more important. And if you lack money right now, you might even be at an advantage. We'll talk about that shortly. Right.

Let me stop you right there, though. I I

Someone write this down.

Yeah, I think it's great.

I need to get my notepad. But um

even with that question, though, would you even want that question? Cuz you're already by default getting a lower quality person or lowering expectations. Like what what is there?

Well, what is there to say about um disqualifying people early? Oh yeah, there's a lot to be said about it, right? Yeah. Um

because what I found is every time I've done wholesale, I'm like, "You don't need any money, anything like that." It gets the wrong person. So now I've like, "Hey, you do need money to do this. You're going to have to market. You're going to have to do stuff."

Yeah.

Now granted, does the money have to come from you? No.

So So and that that could be setting the hook, too. So again, I know nothing of this market. I'm just giving technique right now.

As an alternative, you could say true or false. You need you need money to get to be competitive in the wholesale space or whatever. And the answer is true. Just not as much as you think. If you think you can back a dump truck of a million dollars up and instantly be successful in wholesaling,

no, you will not. Right? You need some capital in order to be successful. And I'll talk exactly what the capital range is and the different types of capital and how to deploy it later on in this webinar. Right?

So, you can lead that way. The goal is to take something that they would use that as an excuse not to not to be fully involved in what you're teaching. Okay. Got it. So people will show up

with baggage, right? It's like dating, which thankfully I don't have to do anymore in this world.

I I feel sorry for the young men that are entering the dating game these days. Like it's just scary. But uh if you were dating, it's not you on that first date with somebody else blank slate, right? They're coming in with their baggage. You're coming in with your baggage. So, when somebody comes into a webinar, they have baggage. And generally, it's negative baggage, right? Because they're like, "I suck at this thing. I suck so bad. I'm willing to join a complete stranger. I'm willing to cancel plans to listen to a guy with a slide deck boringly explain a concept for an hour. Like, that's how good my life is right now, right? Okay. Yeah. So, he's coming on saying, "God, I hope this will be different, but past history has shown me, I've failed at every single attempt at this in my life." So, that's the baggage, right?

Okay.

Yeah. Yeah. It it it's it's funny because it doesn't matter who it is, people will show up generally of the attitude of I would like this to work, but dot dot dot, right?

That's where we start. So, we start with the hook on that as well. So we address immediately the friction that's in their head so we can at least clear the slate. Like if I'm running a math equation on your calculator and you already have input numbers in there, I will get the wrong answer. So we clear the calculator. We get you at least to a state of mind to be open-minded. Yeah. And so that's what the hook does. So the pop quiz is one of those examples in order that you could do that uh with um then after that we go into pain. The thing about all selling that I've discovered is the more I can aggressively bring up the pain that you're experiencing, the more likely you are to then downplay that pain. So if somebody says to me like in wholesaling, what's a big fear that somebody is going to have about wholesaling and how they could screw it up

if they can't find a buyer deal?

Y So I would bring that up immediately after the hook.

Okay. I could say, "Listen, I get it right now. You think that no matter what you do, you'll never be able to find a buyer, right? You could turn over every stone. You could go into every penthouse, every outhouse, every doghouse, right? You could do everything possible under the sun. You could follow every technique and at the end of the day, you still don't have a buyer, right?"

And that's serious because if you don't have a buyer, you don't have you're screwed.

Yeah. So, I will bring that up right away and I will try to exaggerate it to the worst degree possible of how terrible that could be because then the buyer's going to say or the the prospects are going to say, "Well, it's not that bad.

You sure?" Right. It's not that bad, right? So, it's like starting a business. It's like

die.

Yeah. No. So, so when people come to me for webinars, I'm like, "Okay, listen. I get it. If you do a webinar and it fails, here's what's going to happen. The next day, somebody's going to show up to your house that was on that webinar. They're going to drag you out in front of the street. They're going to put a sign on your back. They're going to say, "This guy is a loser who did the worst webinar in the history of webinars. That's what's at stake here." And they're like, "Well, it's not really that bad, right?" Uh, because we tend to catastrophize. And so, if I can do that before you can, then you'll tell me, "Okay, it's really not that bad." So, it's like, "Okay, you might not be able to find a buyer, but don't you think with the right strategies in place that you would increase the probability of finding a buyer? And I can guarantee you 100% away that you will never fire a buyer. They're like, "What's that?

Don't ever try." Right? So, anything above that is at least a non-zero chance of it happening. So, I bring up all the pain. So, when I'm starting, when I'm talking to beginner entrepreneurs, it's like, listen, you have no name, you have no reputation, you have no assets because you've created nothing, right? You don't have any money, right? Somehow you still don't have time. I don't know what you're doing with your time because like obviously whatever you're doing isn't working but you you simultaneously have no spare time and you have no money. You have no reputation. You have no skill what to speak of, right?

And you just beat the crap out of the prospect. I actually kind of do do this on webinars. I I have figured this part out. You're like, "Bro, you are broke. You want to keep doing what you're doing? What are you doing?" And here you are on the webinar thinking you might have a snowballs chance in hell of actually finally making money, right?

And here's why that's logical because it is, right? So you so at least you bring up all of the problems that could get in their way. Uh, and then exaggerated for effect and then you can say now listen on the very small chance that you could actually be successful in this business. Then here are here's what you could look forward to. And then you paint the picture of the hope, right? So, you meet them in heaven or you meet them in hell and then you take them into heaven, right? But you can't preach heaven until you get them out of hell, right? You can't sell them the dream until you wake them up.

They got to be aware they're in hell.

Yeah. Well, and they are aware that they're in hell. And so, if you come to them promising heaven and they're in hell, you are out of rapport. That's a you problem. It's not a them problem. It's you not understanding your market well enough to enter the conversation in their mind. And this is a mismatch that we see time and time and time again. And a lot of people are wrong and this is true in all cell situation. If you bring up the problems, they think that that will increase the problem. They think if I if I say to somebody, you're not qualified, you have no experience, you have no previous success. They think that person will be like, oh yeah, I'm a loser. And then they shut down. Actually, what happens with that person says, finally, somebody who understands me and is willing to authentically assess my situation. Because if we can start there, I can say and there is still a path for you.

Yeah.

And now I have credibility. So then I don't paint the benefit really though until I first address the pain. And then the positioning comes next. The positioning is how the specific approach. If you're the person that fits this approach properly, this is going to give you the most leverage period. Right? Because it's like I could go to Pace more for wholesaling instead of you. What's the difference between what Pace does and what you do? Right? And we wouldn't have to name Pace by name, but he has his approach. I'm assuming your approach is different than Paces. Y

And there are other wholesalers who do it differently. Y and there's not just wholesaling, right? There's all the other ways to do real estate, right? I do a lot of consulting for financial guys in the stock market, um day trading, um all the different markets that are out there. And so I I had a client, we were just doing a cons uh consulting the other day and I'm like you have to eliminate all other alternatives first before you show yours. And so it's like you could start a business so we eliminate that instead of investing in the market. If you invest in the market you or sorry you can invest in real estate so we eliminate real estate for that client. Should you start a business? No, that doesn't make sense. Should you do real estate? Well, no that doesn't make sense if you're this type of person. Should you invest in the market? Yes. What can you invest in the market? You can do a buy and hold ETF strategy. Well, that might work for you. Uh, or you can do forex. That might work for you. You can do crypto. That might work for you. But here's my specific approach and here's why I think this will work the best for you if you meet these conditions. Right? So, we are eliminating all alternatives before we present ours. Now, we're not doing it in the way most guys do, right? This is why I am the best in the world at this. Okay? There's a lot of nuance and maybe it's at a skill level that's hard for most people, but for me,

I don't think one thing is better than any other thing, per se. It's all subjective, right? So, for some people, a buy and hold strategy might make sense.

Yeah.

But it won't for other people. So, I'm not eliminating the alternatives as if they're terrible and nobody should ever do them ever. Yeah. I'm just saying if you're the type of person that I had in mind when I designed this, what I have for you is better than anything you'll find anywhere else.

Yeah. And I will say we address that with rentals cuz basically a lot of the hooks and people that want to get into real estate want to buy rentals and we say look rentals aren't bad. You might think I'm saying they're bad because I talk about how they don't cash flow and all this stuff, but the reality is if you're the type of person who wants to wait 10 years, 20 years, then yeah, they're good.

Yeah. But if you're the type of person who wants to make cash flow today, rentals ain't it.

Yep. The better you can big up the alternatives, the more credibility you'll get for your solution at the end of the day. Rentals are amazing under these circumstances. Go crazy on rentals, right? And this is not our jam. This isn't what we specialize in. We specialize in wholesaling specifically this way because of these reasons. And

from my experience doing this, I have insights that I can share with you that you won't find anywhere else. Yeah.

that's either it or they won't ultimate on a webinar. So, we hook them in. We bring up their pains, we show them what their gains can be, and then we position the vehicle that we have to be the one and only way uniquely and specifically to that type of person that can get them there.

Got it. Okay. So, that's all just step one of 15.

Yep. No, that's those are the first four steps.

Okay. Those are the first four. Okay. Great. Section one which is the introduction right

What's the next major step?

The next major step is then to get into what we call the paradigm uh paradigm is if I can show you something and you go this changes everything that's the key to a webinar success in the content portion of the webinar so you come in believing it is one way and you leave thinking it's another way

uh and we do this all the time so and it's very difficult um paradigm is the hardest part of the webinar but you got to change I believe this is true and therefore I only get this result. But if I can get you to have a complete paradigm shift and say, "Whoa, okay. Now I can see things completely different. I have new leverage. This changes everything."

I'll give an example just for the viewers. We we do this and I I didn't follow this framework for it, but we I just I don't know kind of naturally figured it out. The paradigm shift in our presentation is that, hey, look, if you want to make cash flow, like money you can use today, not equity, not net worth, all that stuff, you know, you could make 200 bucks a month on a rental if you're lucky, and you're going to need a hundred of them to to make 20 grand,

or you can get one wholesale deal a month.

Bingo.

Yeah.

Which ones do you think is feasible? What if you took that like concept to Alex Hermosy's pitch? What was his paradigm?

Um, Alex, so this is a this is a great one. So, Alex is using a different webinar model than normal. Uh, because it's a book launch and generally you don't sell books on webinars because you sell high ticket stuff.

Yeah. The margin on a book is nothing. Uh, so Alex has a completely different webinar style. It's an edge case scenario. But even then, we could still argue the paradigm. The paradigm here is, and I said this to my wife. It was so funny. We were walking uh we were taking these long walks during the launch and we were kind of breaking this down and she says to me, she goes, "I would never get on one of those webinars and ever buy anything from anybody like what we were talking about earlier." And I go, "You 100% would have bought this offer." Uh, yeah. My wife runs a super successful business outside of this space completely. I said, "But if you were still in that space," I go, "You would 100% bought this offer even if you didn't show up to the webinar." And she's like, "What do you mean?" I go, "Because the offer was so incredible for what it was that you would buy it without even having to see the pitch." That's the ultimate paradigm. The ultimate paradigm is when an offer is so unsubstitutable that just merely hearing about the offer allows you to want to buy it. So Prime, Amazon Prime, biggest membership site in the world. You would say, I would be an idiot not to be a Prime member because it would cost me more money if I'm on Amazon to not use Prime than it would be to pay for the membership. That's a that's a no-brainer offer. So, you know, I I said this like 17 years ago. I'd like to think I invented it, but I don't know if I did it. But I was one of the first in this space to say it. Make an offer so good people would feel stupid saying no to it. Right? This is how I always solve for it. Now, it's hard to do, if not impossible. Like Alex had to spend three years building up to it. And he had a lot of other anchorings to value that that we can talk about. Like if I can say these amount of people paid this amount of money for this thing and you can get it for this and I can do that ethically, that can become a no-brainer offer, right? So, it's like these people over here are paying for a new Rolls-Royce and they're paying $350,000. I'm I want to become a monk again tomorrow because I used to be a monk once upon a time in my life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, I'm getting rid of all my possessions. Just pay me $50,000 for this Rolls-Royce and it's yours. And you say, "Is it fake?" "No." "Does it run?" "Yes." "Okay.

"Let me check it for a little bit." Done. Bot. Right? So his paradigm is you can make an offer so good that it doesn't matter what you do as long as you can get people to the offer in the right mental state, they'll buy it at a rate that doesn't even make sense.

And this is what I told my wife. I said, "You would have bought the offer because you instantly would have made more money from the offer than you paid for it, because just one of the tools inside of that that you could put into your business would automatically ROI for you." So that's a different scenario.

The plan, the paradigm for the plan was, everybody's scared of crypto because of volatility. We're not trying to buy low, sell high, time it, dip it, any of that stuff. We are using volatility to our advantage. We capitalize on the volatility. We capitalize on the volatility in this very specific way.

And here's a paradigm, guys, that works in almost any market at a mass market level. Instead of saying, "Here's how you can make a whole bunch of money sometime in the distant future," here's how you can make a tiny little bit amount of money in the very near future.

So, the first webinar I ever did that ran was in 2008 that really broke through. That webinar ran automated for 16 years. It might be a record in this space.

"I know the same one." Pretty much. I would update it every couple of years. Relaunch it.

"You don't look young." Yeah. "Like 23 kids." Honestly, like this is I remember I used to brag. I'm like, "Cuz I used to live in Iowa. I was like, this paid for my $150,000 house." "I'm like, damn, look at me flexing, right?" "I'm like, oh my god, now it's $1,150,000 for my gardener, you know." "Not your Brentwood." Yeah. You know, so it's we had to update some of that stuff, but the premise was creating digital products that were super small that you could sell for $4.

"Yeah. But people could say it was called one problem, one solution, one sitting." "That's what Maria went does well." Yeah. "She's selling little cheap products that people can get a quick win on and make a little bit of money cuz like getting a quick win just shows it's proof." I've always said that about real estate. I'm like, "Dude, real estate's the hardest thing because..." "What does a win look like?" "You know, is it making an offer? Is it talking to a seller? Cuz to actually profit on the deal itself takes months forever, you know." "At a at a minimum, right? Rental takes..." "Years." Yeah.

So if we can reduce the time frame, then we reduce the excuse of failing, right? I can know if I fail by next week and that's exciting to a lot of prospects. So I say, "We create a product in one sitting. So it only is like five, six, seven, eight pages. I have a methodology that does that. We solve one problem in one way and we do it in one sitting and then we charge a stupidly low amount of money for it and people are more likely to buy a product on that than 'Here's how you can be a million dollars creating digital products.'"

Uh, when we did the plan, it was like, "You are going to be buying and selling algorithmically automatically all the way up and down due to the volatility. So you're going to buy something and tomorrow it can make you $3, whether the price goes up or the price goes down, because you're buying and selling as it goes up and as it goes down." So people will buy a product if they can see a result by tomorrow, even if it's $3. Because it's not the quantity, it's the quality. The quality is, "I've seen a return or I've seen a result on an action that I've taken immediately." When in the past I've done many programs, I've taken action and never seen a result.

"You know what I found too? So when we were doing um our social media company with a wealthy creator, it did well. You know, there was the only reason I really stopped doing it was because I just noticed like the time frame to get a result is so like sure you can put a video and get a view and that is like a result. Yeah. But as you know, hey, you really want to build a brand, bro, it's like it's like a rental property like you better go do this for years to and that's just the truth of the message. And it's like selling that is so hard. Yeah. And so you would have to change what a win would look like to that audience and get them feeling really good about a video is a win. Yeah."

For example, right? Um, so one of my favorite paradigms, this will be more easy for everybody to model, and it doesn't have to be in a webinar, is here's the paradigm. I'm going to show you how to do this manually. So, if you want to do it all on your own, you completely can. I'm going to give you every step in the process. And if you only have time and you don't have money, this is your best bet. I will lay it all bare for you. And then at the end, I'm going to show you if you want to partner with us, how we can bring our tools and our resources to give you an unfair advantage if you're willing to invest money and not just time. Does that sound fair to you? And they always say yes.

So the paradigm is set. I'm going to show you how to do it on your own and then you can decide if you want to continue on your own or if you want to see how it would look like if we were to work together. And that's my favorite paradigm because then I can I can give them everything because I know if they buy my solution, they don't have to know how to do everything anymore because they're going to get tools done for you, whatever they're going to get. That doesn't put the burden solely and squarely on them for success. This is such a better way of selling because you don't have to hide the dirty little things that most people hide. Hide because people are like, "Man, if I teach them this, they're never going to want to buy from me." I'm like, "No, this is how it's done. This is how the sausage gets made." Now, if you only have time, "Yeah," "Yeah, go for it." "Yeah. And now they're like, 'Damn, spending money to solve this problem is a way better alternative if I'm the right person and if it's responsible for me to spend that money.'" And that's my favorite paradigm. I call it "show the manual and sell the automatic."

"Right. One thing before we jump into the next section, you you mentioned that you were running an Evergreen webinar for 16 years. Um, what are your thoughts on evergreen versus live?" "Evergreen is just the recorded webinar." Yeah.

So, you know, it's funny, Ryan, because we talked about I you said I don't pitch long enough, right? Like companies bring me in and when we pitch virtually, it's $10,000 an hour. If I come in and pitch for a client, $10,000 to do an hour. And you know me, I like to pitch for like three or four hours. So, like this could, you know, make $30,000, $40,000. Or if they bring me in, because I have clients that will bring me in to pitch for them, it's $50,000 for a day, right? This is just like I like simplicity. We're trying to build social. So, this is a good way. It's a good way to pay the bills so I can invest it in social as opposed to getting in these protracted deals with percentages, upsides, downsides, like, you know, hopefully you make 10 times whatever you pay me and I don't care if you get the better end of the deal, right?

So, when I come in and I and I'm pitching for clients, I like live because I can extract so much more from an event-based selling situation. There's something about live you can't replicate with evergreen, but if the business model doesn't allow for it, then you're going to want to do evergreen instead. Um, it all depends though. So, I have clients that do both really well. The the best is a hybrid. You run evergreen most of the year and then once or twice a year you have some big gigantic Super Bowl like event and then you go back to evergreen. But I don't really care. Whatever you're going to start with to get something out there that is useful and impactful and helpful to your audience and can make you money, you just go with that. So if you're an evergreen person, you do evergreen. If you're a live person, you do live. Or you bring in somebody like me that can do a hybrid, which is my favorite. You start a webinar where you say, "Hey, listen. I'm going to show you this stuff and then I'm going to come back on the end and answer some questions." Then you get the best of both worlds. But it's everything's a trade-off. Evergreen can scale more, but it won't convert as high and you generally have to do lower prices. Live will do much better, but it's trading your time for the outcome.

"Yeah. You know, I was talking to Anthony Morrison about this and he's got a great company who we use called Webinar Fuel." Yeah. "Anthony and his brother, they're both really good guys." Yeah. "Yeah. and uh shout out to them. And you know he his uh feedback was that yeah you know you will convert better live but your show rates better evergreen." "Sometimes." Yeah. "Just with the how they do it now. Y" "Um and and I've seen that objectively um when we do when I remake it live versus evergreen it's like my live might be 30%. But then my evergreen's always 40." Yeah. "And because it's just playing like on demand essentially." Yeah.

I mean, you have to weight that, right? Easier to show, easier to go. So, it's like, yeah, we got to measure what show rate actually means in a way that's useful to us as a bottom line, right? "Yeah. Like, how many made it to the pitch, would that be a great way?" "That that's good." I even if we have a five-minute mark or a 10-minute mark, it shows you how people are committed or when how many people communicate in the chat when you ask them to respond and do we get a high response rate or not? But like, let's not get into the weeds, right? Yeah. Yeah.

So, yeah, because what what I was also thinking too with webinars is to your point of pricing, it's like "You can't really get somebody to self-check out a $30,000 product." "No, I wouldn't want to." "Right. So, you're going to kind of have to go to book a call, but like what is the threshold where you feel like, hey, after this price point, it's just not good for just autoselling essentially."

Yeah. And it's so funny. It depends on the organization. Like if you're not really good at selling yourself, then you might even go to book a call on a $500 product or a $1,000 product for "you're just not that great at selling it." "Or you don't want to deal with it, right?" "Or you have a great organization because you can build these people that are really committed to the cause and they want to get on these phones and they don't need to be, you know, Cole Gordon train assassin level sales guys. Uh they can just be enthusiasts and they're more order takers than sales guys and sales closers. Um on other instances because you're pushing the threshold like I have clients that their front end is $25,000. So they go on a completely cold lead to a book a call funnel to a $25,000 sale. Um and so for them we there's no possible way any direct to cart will ever work. "It's just too much." Even if you could sell it, the buyer's remorse would be too high. You just need to make sure that somebody who's buying it is the right person to buy it. Like unfortunately in this industry, Ryan, people think, well, because I can sell a $25,000 product and somebody buys it, that's good enough. I'm like, "Dude, did you know that person who bought that, right? Like, would you in good conscious think that that's a good purchasing decision for that person to spend $25,000 right now? Like, do you feel like that's going to be the best move for them without even talking and qualifying to make sure that makes sense?" And they're like, "But yeah, they got approved for $25,000 in financing." It's like, "I would not go down that route." So, you would want to in that instances talk to people just to make sure.

"Yeah." "Cuz if they if they fail, it's not their fault. It's your fault, your brand's fault, and you're jeopardizing your reputation, which is the most valuable thing that you can have in this industry. So, you have to make it make sense. I like organizations that we can leverage what they're best at. So if they're they're best at the phone, we build a funnel that sends them to the phone, right? If they're not good at phone, then we build a a funnel that doesn't require a phone call in order to make that business function work. Because if you have good customers, here's here's one, Ryan. People ask me this all the time, Jason, how do I sell to cold people? And I said, "The best way to sell to a cold audience is to first make them warm." So, let's sell them something that doesn't require a lot of setup and a lot of moving parts and a lot of, you know, like webinar sequences and all that kind of stuff. Let's just sell them something and then let's give them a win bigger than any win they've ever had in their life. And then once we do that, we can sell a $30,000 product off of a six-page PDF because we could qualify our buyers specifically and we can communicate to the people who we've already made huge wins for. Right? Like in the business world, if I can make you $30,000 and then I ask you to spend $10,000 with me, I'm not asking you to spend $10,000. I'm asking you to reallocate $10,000 out of the new found pro profits that I helped you unlock. Yeah. But if I don't do that, I could be the best p person in the world. Yeah. And even if I get you on the phone, I don't know if I can sell you. Right. So it's..." "Yeah." "Yeah. There's no easy answer in this business, unfortunately. It's all subjective to the organization, the offer, everything."

"What if there's like a 25K offer? Do you like pitching deposits?" "Great question. Right. And and the answer is is again is it depends, right? I am here's my personal favorite way of doing this. Although all the clients I work with, none of them want to do it this way. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's like I make suggestions and at the end of the day, I support whatever the client decides. I like to go into a a book a call funnel and be like, 'It's $30,000 if you're the right fit. So before you book the call, just so you know, if it makes sense and we mutually agree that moving forward is the best option, it's going to be $30,000.' Yeah. Now, we might have have to help you finance it. We might have to figure that out. But just so you know, the ticket is going to be $30,000 USDC." Yeah.

"But what if they know the price? Do you like deposits or..." "So, so I love to put that in there. Deposits are typically a function of throughput. If we're booking too many calls and we can't support them, this is another it's a way to manage that issue, but preferably we I don't like to use deposits."

So, I actually tested that what you just said yesterday. Nice. And I did an hour 40 webinar, which was the longest. "Oh, brother, you got to bring me in, man. I'm cheap." Yeah. "I'm cheap." "I know what you are. You're $30,000 for 3 hours. I'll bring you in." "So, um, and you told me the price right now. So, like I..." "We don't even we don't even need a call." "Um, but no, what I did though was I said, 'Look, guys, you want to run my system with our tools? We give you leads every month. Everything. It's going to cost you more to go do this yourself. You can't get these leads for this price.' And I said, 'It's $2,000 a month at a minimum. It all just depends how many leads you want and you got to commit for a year. So I don't frame it as, hey, it's $24,000.'" Yeah. "Yours is more flexible." Yeah. "You're going to get on a call with them and be like, how many leads do you want? What makes sense? And all that and then the price is variable." "Correct." Yeah.

Yeah. So I love that. That is the authentic way you should be using the phone. And most people don't think that way. I should have a customizable offer. So therefore, it would make sense for us to have a phone call, right? The way most guys decide on a phone call is, "Oh, if we get them on the call, then we can say, 'Hey, listen, here's all the problems you have. Here's how much money you have. Now, give me your money and I'll solve all your problems, right?'" Like, that's not serving the customer, that's serving you. So, we should build offers where it logically makes sense to get on the call if that's what we're going to do is book a phone call. I don't want even my my uh closers time wasted with with people who aren't serious. So, like I disqualified so hard yesterday. I was just like, "Guys, look, could you do it for free? Sure. Yeah, you could hustle. 99.9% of people who try to do that fail." Yeah. "It is what it is." "Like, if you got 2,000 bucks a month and you can commit to that for a year, then book a call. If not, it's all good." I love that kind of selling. And so, I like to put the price out there, too, because then we can set a high anchor. Okay.

So, here's a little This is so funny. My My youngest daughter has a dog treat business. She sells dog treats. $15 a package because in Brentwood that's practically free, right? So it's like location, location, location and every Saturday. So and we're hacking it right now. Every Saturday there's a Brentwood farmers market and we are putting her stall just outside of there. She has this little stand and everything to sell these dog treats. Probably illegal. We probably get us kicked out, but when you're a 12-year-old cute girl, that's a leverage that you should use in that business. And so so we always do postmortems like what went well? What can be improved? What do you now know that you didn't know before? The three questions I ask after every campaign. So I do it with for my my, you know, hundred million dollar a year clients and I do it for my 12-year-old daughter's dog treat business.

"What were the three again?" So, so what went well? What can be improved? And what do we now know that we didn't know before? Okay. So, so I asked her one day. I'm like, "Does anybody buy more than one bag of dog treats?" Because if we can get the average purchaser to buy two instead of one, we double the business just like that. And she's like, "Well, I do this." I go, "Try this out next time that you you go out on Saturday and sell these dog treats." I said, "Give the dog a sample like she does. And then say, 'Wow, your dog really likes these dog treats. You should buy 15 bags.'" 15 bags. "I was thinking like I'm three back." "I'm like, 'Yeah, she's going to sell three packs.'" And then when they say, "Oh, that's funny. I can't I can't take that many." And then I said, "Now use this close." I said, "Okay, then just two or three and hold up two bags at a time." Right? Nice. And now some of them will buy three, but almost every single one of them will buy two. Right?

So this is called an anchor. I don't This is people don't use their brain. They get anchored. This is a bias. We want to protect ourselves from this. But if we have an ethical, valuable product like a 12-year-old girl selling dog treats, we might as well use this to our advantage. Yeah. So, if I get on a call and I say it's going to be $30,000. Yeah. Or more. And then when they find out it's only $25,000 at the end of the call, cuz you could say $30,000 is the normal sticker price that we offer it for. But because you've went through the process, we've got to know each other. I can give it to you for $25,000. And now they're like, the anchor is higher than what the actual is. If you don't reveal the price before they get on the call, you have no anchor. Your anchor is nothing. So in your particular case, you could say, "Our highest packages are $10,000 or more per month. Now we have lower ones if they make sense. If you're not a big baller yet, like so you kind of be like, man, you should be paying me $10,000 a month because I can make you even more, but we can try to accommodate it. But ultimately, like we have packages that go into the hundreds of thousands of dollars, right?" And now you have the anchor way up here. And so whatever comes underneath of that is comparable to the ultimate version of what you can offer, not comparable to what they want to spend right now, which is zero dollars. So this is why I'm a fan of revealing the price ahead of time.

"That makes sense." Yeah. "Now, none of my clients ever do it, though." "No, I do it. I love it." "I I I hate sitting through things and they don't like even um in our wholesaling business, one of the things we do now that we were always taught not to do was get into price early. They're like, you know, get to know the problem of the house. And I'm like, dude, literally the ad says, 'Get an offer on your home.' Yep. We probably want to give them an offer on their home. Like the worst thing I hate when I call into something and they don't give me what I want. So, yeah. I mean, you you got to just manage it. So, I think people are so scared of price when they they think if somebody hears a price and they don't like it, they instantly quit. Yeah. And that's not true at all. Like people hear the price and they say, 'I shouldn't buy it, but I want the result. I don't know.' And then you have a conversation. You can't have a conversation with somebody on whether they should buy or not until they see the price. But what people do is they put the price at the end. They talk about all this stuff and then you don't have any time after you tell them the price to do anything with it. But if we put the price up front and they say no, which most of them will, then we can have a conversation. Is it the price? No. It's what they get compared to the price. Well, what would make it worth it for them to invest this much? Does this make sense now? And then we run through the whole process. But no, I'm a firm proponent of I have a product that if you're the right person, whatever you pay me is nothing compared to what you get. And if you're the wrong person, I don't want you to pay me anything, right? And I got to figure out if you're the right person or not. So, we got to have that conversation. Yeah." "Yeah. We did that too where I was like, 'And look, if you're thinking, "Oh, I'll just spend $2,000 for a month to get some leads and test this out and see how it goes." Nope. I'm not going to sell you any. You will fail.' Yeah. 'This ain't for you.'" "100%."

"The paradigm shift. What happens after that?" We get into the mechanisms. So these are the first principles, the few vital inputs that get a majority of the results. So this is true in any business. There's only a couple levers that you can push that will account for success or a failure. So if the paradigm is whatever it is, what are the three to four to five most important influential factors that will determine your success? And so we get into those and we we do a formula I call setup, payoff, tie down. Uh this is the biggest mistake people make in all of selling. Doesn't matter if it's webinars or not. They come straight out there and they give the advice right away. Here's the first thing that you need to do.

So let's take an example in wholesaling. What is something strategically that you teach people that would be helpful to them when it comes to wholesaling? "Um, I mean the most problems they have is they can't find sellers who want to sell their homes." "Perfect. So, what's a strategy that you give them to find sellers?" "We actually just give them the leads. It's done for you." "Yeah. I mean, that's what they pay you for, right?"

But if you were to teach them how to find leads on the "Oh, we say Oh, yeah. So, we say, 'Look, you could cold call and text message and do all this stuff and you're going to get cussed out and 99% of them are going to say no.' So, this is how I would set up cold calling in this instance. Yeah. I say, 'Here's the first thing you need to do. You need to find buyers.' Okay? Now, there's a variety of ways that you can do it, but there's one simple way that is proven to work, and I'm going to share it to you. Now, I have to caveat it to you. This way is difficult. It's frustrating. It's challenging, but at least it has the upside of it's free, right? And it's fast, and it gets you immediate return, okay? And it's called cold calling. Okay?' So, we don't just say, 'Here's one way you could reach out and get and get businesses. You can cold call.' I want to set it up first. So, before I reveal how to do it, I set it up. Now, ideally, I would want a strategy that that was something that they were excited about doing and I could set it up for them so they could understand it and then later on I show how we help them do it even better. Um, but I I would have no problem saying you should cold call when you started if you have no budget and if you have no shame, right? And if you absolutely need to be successful with it, cold calling is unbelievably effective. Now, there are other strategies and we'll talk about those later. But if you're not willing to commit to do what it takes, I don't know if you're going to be successful in this business, right? If push comes to shove and you need to make money, you should cold call because what other way can you most likely determine your success other than to talk to people immediately and see whether they're going to buy from you or not, right? So I want to set the stakes before I give them the specific things to do.

So if I'm teaching like information products for example and I talk to I talk to them about the idea of creating a product in one sitting, I'm going to set that up. I'm going to say, "Listen, I have an approach and this approach is great because you are most likely going to fail with it. But failing means you spend one afternoon and if you fail so many times in a row, then here's a principle of success that's always true: you will run out of ways to fail and you will eventually be successful. So, are you okay with doing something where the worst case scenario is you get a strategic byproduct that will be valuable that will make you better as an individual and has a chance of being successful and it only cost you a little bit of focus in order to do that?" So, we get buy-in. Is this making sense? Yeah. Yeah.

So, we we set the stage for the first point and then we get into how it's done. We specifically walk through the process and then we tie it down. Now that you understand this, will you commit to me to move forward and take action on this if it makes sense to you? Or we tie it down. We say, "Now that you now that you get this, how much would you pay for this if you were going to outsource it?" Or like, "Don't you think something like this is valuable enough that if you only did this and nothing else that our time today would be well spent together?" We can't just tell them what to do. We have to get them to agree that what we gave them was valuable to them. Otherwise, they will hear it and then they will forget it. So, we have to have impact. So, we set it up so they're emotionally invested in the point. We give them the point and then we tie it down and we pay it off.

Now, Ryan, here's the problem. Nobody leaves space for the setup and nobody leaves space for the tie-down. So, they teach and they teach and they teach. They teach too much. So, we make less points, but we have more impact with our points because we're setting them up and we're tying them down. And then we do that for each of the first principles that make the most difference because wholesaling at the end of the day, if I asked you if we could drill down to just four things that matter more than anything else with wholesaling, you could probably name them for me right now. "Yeah, there's only three." Yeah. And even better, right? So, that's all we have to show them. These are the three things that will make or break you. Here's the first thing. Set it up properly. Explain how to use it. and then tie it down. Do it with the second, do it with the third thing. And then your offer is just a way to make it easier, better, less riskier, more successful, uh higher returns if they were to partner with you. That that's the offer then. Yeah.

"Got it. And then after that, what's next?" So, we got to transition to the offer. We have to go from education mode into selling mode. Uh those are two different modalities. And so, if you abruptly shift to one to the other, it's weird. Or if you don't know how to make the shift, then you won't do very well. So, the transition is the bridge from content to pitch. And my favorite transition of all time is we first do a review. "So far on this webinar today, you've discovered X, Y, Z, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6." And people are like, "Dang, that was awesome." Otherwise, they forget, right? Yeah. Yeah. Like somebody listening to this podcast right now, we've dropped gems, if I could so humbly say so. But if I asked you, name 10 gems that I've dropped, they'd be like, uh, they don't remember, right? They remember how they felt, but they don't remember what they've heard. So, if we're going to sell them, we have to remind them and put them in a state of gratitude of all the awesomeness that we just went over. So, I call it "60 minutes in 60 seconds." So far in this webinar today, you discovered this and this and this and that and that and this and this and this and this. And then we we give them a series of yes questions to put them in that mindset of being accepting of a new reality. If you just go to sell the new reality without first conditioning it, you're not going to get as good a results. And so we can ask them, "Was your time well spent today? Did you learn something you didn't know before? Can you see yourself now doing something you couldn't do before? Are you glad that you took the time to invest in yourself to learn a new skill?" And these are very general. Ideally, we'd make them more specific, right? But just to effect.

And then my favorite one, and Alex does this, you can watch his last two book launches. He uses this one word for word. It's my favorite transition of all time that I teach, which is the two choices. Now, we're faced with two choices. Choice number one, I can let you go at it alone with your own resources, your own time, your own effort, your own blood, your own sweat, and your own tears. And if that was the only option, it would be a worthy one to pursue. Or there's a second option. We could go at this together. I could arm you up with every resource, every tool, every technique, everything that I have in my disposal to help make you successful. I could take an active interest in your outcome and your success. If I had such an option, would you like to hear about it? And now they're like, "Please." Yeah. So, we juxtapose the cost of doing it alone versus the cost of doing it with us, right? Because everything has a cost. So, we show them if they were to try this on their own, this is the stakes. And if they were to invest with us, it's a different set of stakes. And then we go into the offer.

"Okay. So, you pitch. How long is the pitch usually?" "Till I run out of energy or until they stop buying." "Well, I guess the offer." "I know I'm messing with you, right? So, my formula in general, and again, and I mean, I've consulted with all the biggest names in the world. Very few of them feel comfortable doing this. Usually it works the best though. We put the core offer up front. Um, now this is direct to cart. Uh phone's a little bit different, but it's good to study the the direct to cart first cuz this one little component alone is a macro for how I make all my offers. My first thing to solve for is how can I tell them the least amount of information possible to then tell them to go buy, right? Because I know one-tenth of my buyers will buy immediately with the least amount of information because they're the most qualified. They're the most ready to go. They don't need all the details. Just show them the baby, right? So, in mass selling, different people are going to buy at different times. So, I want to get that first low-hanging fruit to buy right away. So, what do they need to hear in order to make a purchasing decision? Generally, you only need 3 to 5 minutes. So, you you big picture it. You say, 'When you sign up with us today, here are the three things you're going to get. Here's the first thing. Set it up. Pay it off. Tie it down. Same formula, right? Uh here's the second thing. Here's the third thing.' And then you go into the price immediately. So I'm pitching $2,000, $3,000 products with 3 minutes of setup from the time I reveal it's with great pleasure that I offer to you insert product name here to explaining the high value components of it. Then I'm going into price. So I price anchoring is, 'Hey, listen, you know, should be this much, could be this much, normally is this much. If you act fast enough, it's this much.' That's the general formula. And then we tell them where to go to buy it. So, I'm I am doing my first close with a URL to go put your credit card in here within about five minutes now." "Of it starting." "Uh of me starting from the pitch." "Oh, okay. Got it. Got it. Gosh."

"Now, with uh pitches, do you only pitch one offer? What if there's an upsell or not an upsell, but like what if there..." "Okay, for example, for me, let's use mine, right? I'm like, it's 2,000. It's 2,000. But we do have an option for a thousand." Yep. "So, would you pitch both?" "Generally, no. Okay. I would I would be more vague. I would pitch both, but not in that way. I'd say we we have the $2,000 a month option. Now, there are edge cases where we do have alternative paths forward, which we can discuss, right? But dot dot dot, I'm always wanting to to sell one thing ideally, right? It's hard enough. It gets very complicated. So, my daughter wants to have new SKUs. She's like, 'I want to have four bags of dog treats.' I'm like, 'Now when you show the customer, they're like, which one should I buy versus buy this one or don't buy this one?' So generally I only sell one offer on a webinar. There are some exceptions though." "Because most people will default to the lower two." "Not only that." "They get confused." "They get confused, right? And it it and not only that I can't put all my firepower behind one type of pitch. Like I want to go really hard on one very clear very specific path. Yeah. And that generally will work better for me from a communication standpoint. So I will give them an out. I'll say, 'Listen, you know, there may be other alternatives, but don't expect them. Come into the call with this in mind to figure out a way if this will work for you or not. We may be able to work with you, but I would rather you do this and like this is the best thing I got. This is what leads to the most success. At the end of the day, do everything you can to make this one a reality.' Nobody wants a cheaper option. They want the best option for them. And so when you position, 'We also have $10,000 ones.' It can come across as being cheaper, right? I always take the position of of, 'Hey, listen, hey, we'll give you the lab-grown diamond. Worst case scenario, right? I guess it still looks great. Yeah. You know, like your wife will know it's not real, but nobody else will. But let's just see if we can get you the damn diamond, right? Like, holy cow, it's not that different. Like, come on, man.' Yeah. So, this is how I sell. But yeah, results may vary."

"If you do, if if you do, let's just say a 2-hour webinar." Yep. "That would never be a two-hour web." Yeah. "Or let's just say an hour, whatever the time is." "It's four." "Okay. 4-hour webinar." "Thank you." "Can you split up percentage time like pitching, introduction?" "He just said the pitch, right? that we're talking about right now comes at like 45ish minutes, right?" "45 to 70 minutes." "I want to know like percentages."

I'll break it down for you. So, introduction is between five and 15 minutes. The higher the ticket or the more complicated the sale, the longer the intro goes, but generally between five and 15 minutes. Content portion is going to be between 40 and 60 minutes roughly. Uh depending on the content itself, how complicated it is to explain and depending upon the price point. Generally, the higher the ticket, the more you have to explain it. Transition is only a couple minutes, maybe 2 to 5 minutes. The first part of your offer is going to be 3 to 5 minutes. Price is going to take a minute or two to deal with. And then after that, I go into bonuses in general. Now, these some offers don't have bonuses, some offers shouldn't have bonuses, but I like to go from price back to value. So, here's my offer, here's the investment, and here's the other things you're going to get when you say yes. So now we move right back to value and then we address risk, which we can do with a guarantee. We can do it with no guarantee and explain this is who shouldn't buy or these are the things that can get in your way. So we should figure out if this makes sense for you or not. And then we put in scarcity in there as well, which is the penalty for inaction and the reward for sooner action. And so the formal part of a webinar will be done within 75 to 90 minutes. So what I mean by that is I'm out of slides by "handling and pitching." And now I am just doing the favorite thing in the entire world that I do in business is I sit there with customers and figure out if they should give me money or not. And we can do that for as long as there's customers that are considering giving me money. And that can generally be three more hours at that point.

"So you say minimum." "So you're saying minimum half of your time should be pitching." "More than half of your time." "So you're like 75%." "Yeah. And I wish I could go longer like." "But you say for someone listening to this if they're like I'm going to do a 60-minute." "I want to give value." "Should they be like 95/5?" "You're saying they should be like 25/75% pitch." The more the most value I ever give is in the pitch because how can I rightsize the content to your situation if we don't go through it in the pitch, right? So, this drives Iman nuts because we're in Dubai, right? We we done three launches together. We start at a god-awful 9:00 p.m. at night Dubai time because we're going worldwide. Okay. Iman gets on there. He does an hour, hour and a half of the presentation. Then he brings me in and then I do the closing. Okay. By the time that I'm done, I'll do two, three hours of closing and I'll go longer. But at that point in time, I feel guilty because it is now two in the morning and you know, he's got a driver for me. The driver's waiting to take me back to my hotel. The team is waiting for me to finish. You know, the videographers and all the crew is there, the five or six guys. And I know Iman is like, he's like, 'Dude, I want to wrap it up. I want to go to bed.' Right? So they they leave, they go out, they go to McDonald's, they come back for food, and I'm still pitching there. And then and then when he's tired of me pitching, he gets out, he goes, 'Okay, it's time to go.' Right? Like, yeah. So, I'm three or four hours in on an audience every single night, and we're doing a challenge, which is the graduate level of webinars, and we're doing this three or four, five nights in a row. So, literally on some of these launches, I will have pitched for 24 actual hours. Wow. Like four hours a night for six nights in a row. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. I love it.

"Yeah. I want to look up Iman." Yeah. So, and I think if there's anything anybody can take away from this podcast is, and it doesn't have to be a webinar. You literally can go to your audience and say this, and this will make so many people so much money. It's so stupid. You go, "Hey, listen. I have a product. I think you should buy it because I created it with you in mind. You haven't bought it. I just want to know why. Come to this call and we can figure out if you should buy it or not." And you would be surprised the amount of people who will get on a call with you fully knowing that you're going to explore if they should give you money or not. What do you do? Because I think a lot of people have this issue and even me when we do smaller ones because you're like, "Look, I got 30 people on the not 500." Then you can't go as long unfortunately. Right. Because there's just less engagement. "Go until they all fall." You're chewing the chew, as we would say at that at that point in time. Yeah. You're chewing the chew. There's only so much juice you can get out of the squeeze. Right. So we squeeze as much of it as we can. So in those instances, we don't go as long. But if I'm doing 30 person

Webinars, I'm not doing them in such a formal structure either because I could have a conversation with 30 people almost individually. I don't need a full-blown presentation.

Speaking of that, how do you do you think that presentations everyone should have one or not?

No, I don't think so. I've sold many a webinar where I said, listen, I have this game-changing we do this with software all the time. This software is so insane that you should buy it if you're the right person. Come to this webinar. I'm going to show you this software. I'm gonna pitch it to you and then we're going to decide if you should buy it or not. Right? So people come to the webinar fully knowing that there's no education. Sometimes I'll even say that you will not learn a damn thing on this webinar. Like I exaggerate, right? Like there will be no value given whatsoever. You will leave dumber than you were before you came to it. However, if you are the right person for this tool, it will cost you more money not to buy it. So, we got to figure out if you should buy this tool or not.

Or if you're dumb.

Yeah. Uh God, people think that people don't want to spend money on stuff. People want to spend money as much as they humanly can as long as the money they spend is nothing compared to what they get for it.

Right. Right. So, that's your webinar structure. And obviously we could talk intricacies and all that challenges and everything else, but.

You know, while we got you here, the the other thing I wanted to ask you about as we wrap up is um AI. And obviously we we talked about it before if uh information is a commodity now and AI is able to be a better teacher than >> y >> you know most and it will only continue to get be or continue to get better. Um where do you see AI going? How you using it today and what what's your predictions?

Great question. So, we have to define what AI is. For most people, AI is like LLMs. So, I go to Chat GPT. I say, "Hey, listen. Create a chore chart for my kids these weeks." And then it outputs the chore chart. Uh, and it's funny cuz my two youngest said, "We have to brush the dog every other week. The oldest one hasn't had to brush the dog in like six weeks. This isn't fair." I'm like, "Nope. The AI says it this way. I told it to." And then I looked at I'm like, "The AI screwed up. it couldn't even allocate chores effectively across three children. Like I was like, dang it, my kids are right and I'm wrong. I hate when that happens. Uh so the AI LLM is a very useful tool in the limited capacity in which you should use it in. Uh so when we're talking LLMs, I think we are not going to see any noticeable improvement for a very long time. I think they've hit that last mile usefulness. So there's this concept in business called the last mile. So again, you guys are too young. I'm too old. But the internet used to be 56k dialup at best. It was slow as hell. And there was always this problem of promise of fiber, but you never got it. And then finally one day we now take for granted that you could gig uploads, gig downloads were uploading and downloading all day long. And it's this fast, right? We can stream 4K video from Netflix without beating bl uh blinking an eye when back in the day I'd have to wait all night to download an album, you know?

So >> yeah. Um, but >> Kazah I'm wired. >> I'm I was a Napster guy and I wasn't pirating because it wasn't illegal yet, you know. So, I would go to school in the morning, queue up all my songs, get home, half of them would be lost cuz the connection got disconnected. Then I would do it again at night and I'd get an album by the end of the day. Right. So, it took 20 years to get that that last mile. Yeah.

And Amazon, same thing. It took them 20 years to finally be able to deliver two-day prime no cost to everywhere basically in America. They're still not there in Europe fully yet.

They have same day.

So AI is this close to being amazing at writing content consistently across the board with high levels of accuracy better than than Genius can do it. I think it's going to be 15 years before it hits that next level. So I think we should use what is given right now the best that we possibly can. So the way that I'm using AI is context is a big problem with AI. So we just define very narrow context and then we build out um the solutions from AI based upon that. So for for webinars I have like a chain of 46 different prompts that I use. So prompt one is for the first two minutes of the webinar. Prompt two is for the next two minutes of the webinar. And this is super granular because AI will very quickly get off track and take you down a dark road that you get mugged in at the end of the day. So I am I am keeping it on a leash. I'm using it like a guard dog.

Do you use open claw or anything yet or any of these?

No. And I'll tell you why. Now if you're a young hustler out there, you should seriously invest in time to figure out these new emerging technologies. But for established successful entrepreneurs, uh, you know, I have Mulavians that do that for me now, right? Yeah. These guys are super level geniuses. Pay them 20 to 40 bucks an hour and you basically they could work for you all day and if they have one eureka moment a month, it it pays dividends to the founder to the tune of six or seven figures. So I am not going to get in there and get into the minutia anymore. It's not a good use of my time. But I am making small stakes on emerging technologies like Claude >> paying the right types of people in order to try to uncover that stuff for me. And I think that's a I think that's a an equation that's great on either side of it. So if you're a young person out there trying to make some money, be the person that guys like me pay Yeah. >> to figure that out because you don't have to just rely on the wage. you are getting paid to learn an emerging technology that one you once you figure out how to best capitalize on it, you become the business owner. So, it's a great way to acquire skills and get paid to do so. If you're a business owner, you should in be investing in a variety of different technologies from people that are trying to master those technologies and then leveraging their output.

I love it.

Well, bro, um we can't go four hours on this podcast. Um, I've reached my my rapid fire real quick.

Do you have questions? Yeah. Okay. What are your questions?

I'll try to keep it brief. No promises.

What What was your worst webinar?

I have bombed in several webinars. Yeah. Like, but it's okay because if you always lead with value, do you ever lose? So, I've missed the mark. I've had the wrong offer. I've had the wrong audience for the right offer. But it's always made me better. But yeah, I lose a lot.

Like you like negative money?

Nah. Yeah, when you factor in ad costs, for sure.

What was your best single webinar?

Best single webinar. And I'll never forget this cuz I was talking with Russell because he was getting ready to sell at Grant Cardone's 10X. Remember when he went out there, he sold like 3 million.

That was the first thing I ever bought.

Oh, cool. Yeah. So, we were talking a week before that going over some strategy of what what he could do during that launch. And he says to me, he's like, "I've never done a webinar that has done $1 million in 60 minutes." Meaning like cart open to cart closed, get off the webinar, a million in. And I'm like, "It's nice. I was going to be an [ __ ] right?" I think it's cool the first couple nights, right?

Couple of times.

Yeah. Then he goes out there and he crushes it. But I remember because we had just did one that did about $3.2 million in less than an hour. It was for a $10,000 piece of software. Uh but you know, let me set it up properly. It was only to buyers who had bought our $3,500 front-end product and were a member of our $297 continuity program. Yeah.

And I made them sign an NDA to even come to the webinar. Right. So So, we had 582 people on this webinar and it produced $3.29 million in sales.

Wow.

Yeah, that was my best one overall. And it and it produced it just like that. It was insane. So,

Um it doesn't scale, but it goes back to that principle of price elasticity we're talking about earlier. I designed that offer for 600 people in mind and it made $3.29 million in sales.

What is What have you seen is like the most common thing that causes entrepreneurs to fail when they're doing webinars?

you make it way too complicated. Um, there's a graduation process. Don't fight the black belt the first day in the dojo. Right? So, my first webinar was like, I'm going to create a product. If you want it for free, show up. If you want to pay me for it later, don't show up. Right? And so, I went on and I trained for four hours. Didn't sell anything. Just seeing just seeing if I could give the best experience possible. And then the next iteration of that was like, hey, listen, that went well. I have the $17 product that teaches these 12 steps. I'm thinking about doing 12 webinars, one per step. You want to pay me? Okay. So, I went on there and trained two hours per step. That's 24 hours. So, the second experience I ever had in webinars was 24 hours of delivery. Again, not selling anything. The third time I did webinars was okay, I'll sell you a series of 12 webinars and the first webinar is free and if you like this, would you like 11 more? So, the stakes are not that high. Mhm.

But now by the time I start doing pitch webinars, I got 40 hours of tape, right? Yeah.

I've been live nose tonose, toes to toes in the trenches of webinars. And then I tried the big boy stuff. So most people want to go from I've never done a webinar in my life to let me do all that fancy stuff that Vladlin talks about. Let's fight the little 10-year-old kids first that are white belts and beat their ass and then we'll go up and then we'll fight the black belts, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

That's funny. What would you say is like the biggest opportunity coming up in the market right now?

Oh, I mean it's definitely AI. Um,

but like what specifically?

You're you're selling AI softwares I can gather from

Yeah, I can just gather trend software sales.

We want to sell shovels. We don't want to dig for gold. Like if you are somebody who is excited about teaching, if you're a knowledge person, an info person, an educational person, you should be selling shovels as much as you possibly can.

Do you think info is going to die?

No, I don't think it's going to die. So, there's always a level of information that's scarce. We just have to get better at finding scarce information that we can sell and we can package. People will always pay for information. It's just what used to be scarce is now freely available in general. Like I can still make a boatload selling just webinar information with no software or nothing else because the scarcity of information of the knowledge that I have on webinar you can't find anywhere else. And I don't

watch this episode.

Yeah. Well, even then like this is the surface of the surface, right? Even then though it's like to the right businesses it's scarce.

Yeah. Yeah. So you just change who you sell to and you you change the depth and the the degree of what you're selling. There are new problems being created every day that there's no information on how to solve them. So if you start solving those problems, you can still make a lot of money with information. But I've been wanting to move beyond information since 2010. Like I think information is a good base but if you can put software around it, you can put coaching around it, you can put done for you around it on top of it, then to me information becomes more on the more of the salt and less the main course.

How many offers do you come up with for yourself a year?

You know, I'm in a weird situation now. I've become a hired gun for all these companies and you know, they know my kryptonite. They back a large amount of money up to my door and they ask me to help them out and I can't say no, right? It's a weakness that I have. So, I like impact. So, if I can work with an Iman or an Alex and we can reach a million people and I don't care who gets the credit, then to me that's impact. So, I'm doing very little offers. I'm building my brand now for social because if I had my dream, it would be when we launched the book to sell millions and millions of copies of it because that's how I can get the biggest impact possible. But a book doesn't make you any money. It's the hardest thing in the world to sell. So, I'm splitting my time by getting a few clients to pay me large amounts of money and then I'm spending the rest of my time now trying to reach as many people as I can.

Okay. If I were to challenge you for $100 million,

yeah,

that you had to double M19 in the next year.

Yeah.

What would you do?

I would first look at what's the feasibility of that happening, right? And then I'd have to determine is that a one hurdle or a seven foot hurdle. So,

let's say he did two. How much you think you'll do this year?

We might do eight to 10.

Let's say he did eight. Yeah.

And you have to double it to 16.

Uh again, same same rubric. It's always the same. What's the feasibility of it? And then what's the effort involved in order to make it happen? So I've learned I I've lost this game too many times to keep making the same mistake. So Buffett says it best. I'd rather find one foot hurdles to step over than seven foot hurdles to jump over. Right? So I would say listen, if the effort involved to double your business is significant, we shouldn't probably double it. We could spend our time elsewhere. But if the effort to double your business is not that difficult, then we should quadruple your business instead. But we have to do the analysis first to see what the feasibility is.

So for feasible, let's just let's just go through it. It's feasible. He wants to double it.

Yeah. Yeah. It's a oneep hurdle.

Yeah, it's a one-step hurdle. What do you think? What would you tell him to do or what would you look at first?

Uh well, we would find the biggest lever. Um so the theory of constraints is what we would actually run through in this situation. We would say what's the one thing that limits you from doubling your business today? And then we would remove that constraint. We just figure that out.

What would you say it is?

Um I mean right now it's just sales and marketing at that point. Like you just get more people aware that it exists.

Yeah.

And then you get them on calls and sell them.

Yeah. And so then we'd have to determine what level of awareness and what people in getting them on to what calls and what what degrees. Right. But we want to find that one lever that if we put in the effort we can get a 100% or 100x result on as opposed to just merely incremental. Um and there's always something. Every business has one lever that they can pull for the same amount of effort that gets an outsized return. So, we just try to figure out what that is.

Can you give an example? Because I think he's thinking just run more ads.

Yeah. And that's usually an incremental play, right? An exponential example goes back to what I was talking about earlier. Reaching out to your audience and saying, "Listen, if I were to create a $100,000 product and it looked like X, Y, and Z, is there any way >> current members something really expensive?"

That's almost always the move, right?

Yeah.

And again, I would beta test it. Generally speaking, I don't know if this will work or not. This could be the stupidest idea you've ever heard in your entire life, but what if? Right. And we would just start playing with the market cuz the cost to to explore that is negligible and the potential upside is infinite.

Yeah. You could be like, we're going to give you a uh I wonder if you could like also pre-ell like, you know, a 10-year membership. Yeah. Or what about like a big baller event where it's like everyone that's 10, we'll say maybe 50 million or more, we're having one event, you have to make this much. It's 100 grand.

You know, we're going to have a special guest come in and something like that.

I always just work backwards. Say the company that's $50 million or more, what's the biggest problem that they haven't solved that we could easily solve for them? And I'm like, and then what would it be worth to them? And it doesn't matter how big the business is, they all have some nagging problem that if somebody put some intensity behind it, they could easily solve it. And if I can be that guy, I'll be that guy. And I'll be like Amex. AX is one of my favorite businesses in the world. They're like, "Hey, listen. As part of the the highest level of Amex, uh, is like the black card. I think they have a higher level now. I don't know. My wife takes care of all this stuff, right? I just paid the AX bill, but she gets the best card. That's how it works." And she told me one day, she goes, "You know, if you're hiking and you get lost in the woods and they send you a helicopter to pick you up,

they charge you for that." Like, that's not a free ride. The city says, "Okay, here's your $150,000 bill." Did you guys know AMX ensures that? If you get lost in the woods and a helicopter comes and picks you up, AMX says, "I got you, bro. Let me take care of that."

What's that have to do with credit cards?

Yeah.

Not a damn thing. Yeah,

but if that solves a rich person's problem,

one person a year claims it.

That and that's where I get excited. What can we deliver on that cost almost nothing but has value through the roof? Yeah.

And this is how we now nonlinearally solve problems for rich people cuz a poor person doesn't worry about it. They wouldn't pay the bill if it happened to them. But a rich person doing rich person stuff might find themselves in the French Alps doing something idiotic. Get lost. And the French are the worst. Tell I lived in can for 4 months last year. I will tell you French people are their own unique species, right? They they will make you feel like the worst person alive as they pick you up on that helicopter and AX will take care of the bill.

Yeah, they don't like Americans. I don't know why.

And hey, what's that cost to you? Nothing. What's the the value on that? It's crazy how valuable that is.

So, last question. So, you mentioned, hey, if it's a 7 foot hurdle Yeah. like just don't even go after it. Focus on the one foot. So like in your mind, right, you're you're a mercenary. And so what I'm hearing is you're like, "Look, for me to go create a whole new product that could once again do 50 million. It it's probably a seven foot hurdle, but I could be a mercenary for five really good people. I It takes no effort on my end to go because they're going to go do 90% of the work. I'm just coming in to pitch.

I'm arbitrageing." Yeah, for sure.

Is that how you're seeing it?

Partly uh my belief is every 10 years a lifetime opportunity occurs. So once in a lifetime is 10 years technically. Um and that's a period of time when you can put in the same effort and get a return because market factors have changed that favor you.

So if we run it back in 2010 I had one such moment. WordPress powered 25% of the internet but it was built by geeks.

So they couldn't bridge the gap from blogging to WordPress sites. They couldn't bridge the gap gap between the technical aspect and here's how this makes you money. So I used to go in there and sell webinar software on webinars. So nobody used webinars. So I was selling software and I was translating it from geek into entrepreneur language. Made a killing. And then market conditions changed. Amazon comes along in 2013. Private label is all the rage. Nobody knows how to do it. You could exploit Amazon search engines. And I did it so well they had to change the terms of service because we were so good at figuring out how to rank products on Amazon. So for the 5 years that that was viable, we you know I'm $25 million. Not too bad, right? But then conditions changed and then crypto comes in. I don't have the right angle. So I don't play the game. I set out because I don't know a strategy. Co and crypto and the strategy emerge. These are three events I have no control over. But once I saw them, I leveraged them. And so I'm patient, you know, I'm I am patient waiting for the conditions to set up. And this is what I first said to Alex Herozi. And he has the testimonial. He text me and it's so funny because a text message starts this way. He goes, "You probably don't remember who I am." Something like that. He goes, "You may not know who I am." He goes, "But you gave me, you gave me advice that changed my life." And he goes, "We went on and we did like a hund00 million and you know, the gym launch and all that kind of stuff." And this is the information I gave him. And I don't know why what compelled me to come up to him and and say this to him, but I saw him and Ila. They had I could tell that they had been killing themselves to finally break three at that time. Like they had been working really hard and then Gem Launch finally got momentum and they looked exhausted when I looked at them. And I walked up to him completely unprompted on the break. And I generally don't give unsolicited information because it's not wellreceived. But something compelled me to tell him. And I walked up to him. I I said, "Alex," I go, "When things are the easiest, that's when you should go the hardest." So generally we work really hard when things are hard to get a breakthrough and then we start making more money than we've ever made in our life with less effort than we've ever put in before and that's when we want to finally let off the gas. But that's when the momentum is strongest and it only rains money for so long until it quits raining money. So when it's raining money you get a big bucket and you don't go to sleep until the money stops raining in. So I told him that. I go when it's easy that's when you go hard. And they went hard. And he says it changed his life. And so I wait for these opportunities. And so in the meantime, I'll plug around 50,000 a day, no problem. No, you know, breaking a sweat, low effort, high high yield on 50k, right? I I I bill 5K an hour for consulting. And I have a full calendar and I know, okay, this will pay the bills and I and I

Do you consult for 10 hours a day? No.

Uh right now I only do two two uh two days of consulting a week.

Oh, I see.

I'm just saying that. And then I have client.

Oh, you'll make 50K a month just consulting? get I'll make at 5k for five hours two times a week 20 50k a week right

okay you make 50k a week just consulting

that's just like I set my

that's how you buy your time and pay for Brentwood

I can yeah, doesn't enough count for Brentwood but like like it allows me to take the new moonshots that I'm making in social and all that plus I have a couple partnership deals that make me like a million dollars a year just off the partner deals right and I'm just waiting until the next thing moves along but now in the past it required an email list and a bunch of affiliate affiliates these days. It requires a strong brand and a social media presence. So, I know sometime in the next 5 years, an opportunity will reveal itself that I will make whatever Alex did and whatever I've done previous nothing compared to what will come next. But I can't force that. So, in the meantime, I'm stepping over these one-foot hurdles as they make sense to me now.

Easy money.

Easy money. And more important to me, high passion alignment. Yeah,

I enjoy it. I love consulting. I love working with the right clients. I love coming in there and doing easy things to me that make big differences in their business and most important to the customers. Like my number one thing I I look for when I work with clients is do you have something that's 10 times better than anything else in the market. Yeah.

If you don't, I don't want to sell it. I only want to sell the very best and then I want to sell it in the best way possible. And so, but there will be a new Amazon that comes up. There will be a new crypto that comes up. There will be a new WordPress that comes up. There will be something in AI and it hasn't hit yet, but there will be something in AI and that's when it's easy and we will go harder than anybody else in the business. And I'm I'm due for it in about two years.

Yeah. Him and I have AI.

It'll be something in AI, but not the way that AI is shaped right now. Just like, you know, remember ICOs in crypto and remember all the other nonsense in crypto? Even the.com bubble back in the day, like the internet wasn't a scam. It was the initial initial every adoption curve has played out historically the exact same way. When computers first came out, nobody could buy them. They were too expensive and they didn't work. And then over time, computers took over the world. When phones came out, you had your Nokia phone, you dropped it on your foot and you broke your foot. Right now you have a phone and you don't even need a computer. So the adoption cycles will happen just generally not at first. And so I don't think AI has really truly figured out the biggest play yet. It's still in the early phase.

Yeah. This is what you you've said it before on the podcast, too, of like it it's easier to just make a fat chunk of money during like one specific moment than slowly stacking.

It always works out that way. Michael Zuber, you Oh my gosh.

Well, that's why you live in Brenwood.

At least it's not Dubai, right? Yeah. No, I agree. I think uh and that's what I I've been saying on the show recently is I've just seen the golf just keep kind of growing at a far more exponential rate than my other stuff ever before. Yeah.

And the ease of selling it. To your point, I'm like, this is like literally a hundred times easier than everything else I do.

So, he has real estate that's like hard. And then golf

and the real estate market's terrible. You have real estate, you have golf, and then like I've sold other stuff too, just like you. And I'm like, those are like one foot hurdles for me. Like, okay, I can come into this business and we can run their sales and marketing. They're little hurdles. It's not difficult. But then it's like, all right, I'm in a to your point at the very beginning, the the three different things, a market that's trending upwards. Y that's profitable, that's passionate. It's like,

yeah, why can't this be a consistent recurring revenue thing that gets to millions a month recurring?

The biggest leverage you have in that is how many competitors do you have? like almost none.

Not no meaningful competitors. How many competitors do you have in real estate? I could throw a rock and hit three of them right now, right? Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, outside of this room, right? My Uber driver here probably is your competitor, right?

Yeah. My my co-host.

So, you have a blue ocean. Yeah. Blue oceans don't remain blue forever, though. So, we should take the opportunity to leverage it as much as we can while it's still a blue ocean.

Yeah. All right. We're going harder than ever before.

Do you golf?

I have golfed one time in my life.

You make enough money. You

qualify.

There's no You should go on a trip. Yeah.

There's no handicap like, you know, minimum. There's just a income minimum.

Hell yeah.

You're You're good.

I qualify.

Yeah. Hey, this is not for you. Yeah.

If you don't want to have the best trip of your life, if you don't

if you want to be around rich people,

if you don't like hanging with rich people who do cool things that you could probably help and partner with, you do not want to join.

But for a very select person, it could be you, it might work.

I love it.

Stay with me the next four hours.

All right. Anyways, guys, hey, where do they find you? How can they get in touch with you and pay you five grand an hour? That's, by the way, that's too cheap. Why is it so cheap? Why do you charge that little?

It's a great question. Right. So, I have the philosophy of a killer offer. I want to offer so good that it's impossible for you not to make way more than what you give me. And so, 5K is now become a function of supply and demand.

I don't have to try very hard to sell it. I'm at full capacity for the most part. And if I get tired of it, I'll just fix my prices. But

yeah,

there's not a single client alive who's a right fit client that hasn't made significantly more than what they've paid me.

I Yeah, that's super cheap for what you do.

And occasionally it allows me to parlay that into partnership.

Yeah, you might do something different. What?

So, it's like how do you sell a high uh how do you sell a business like a significant business on a million-doll deal? You don't do it on webinar. You do it because they first pay you $5,000 a few times and then you're like, "Bro, you guys can do it on your own. If you brought me in to do it." Yeah.

It's a better move. Yeah.

5K an hour.

5K an hour. Yeah.

So, this podcast is worth like 15.

I mean, being in your guys' presence is millions of dollars.

Yeah. Yeah. Come on, man. I guarantee there's

my wife all the time.

I tell my wife.

She doesn't see the value.

But that's you not properly presenting the value on that,

you know.

No, I mean, and you know, 5K an hour to consult, 10K an hour to pitch live on webinars, and I don't do that very often because we brand exposure, you don't want too much of that. And I'm picky. 50k a day if I go in and I pitch for the client, you know, like I I

I I'm certain that LTVwise, just this episode, it will be seven figures.

Guys, if I make nothing from this episode and and people change their business in a positive way.

Yeah.

My spiritual currency will raise more than whatever business I get out of this.

Rewards in heaven.

Definitely.

Uh so, how do people connect with you?

Instagram, baby. Go to Instagram. stock my stuff because I'm trying really hard to grow that up. If you want to buy my book on Amazon, one to many, it teaches you everything on on webinars you could ever hope to need. It's like 10 bucks on Kindle or something like that.

Yeah.

And other than that, like DM us, email us if you want to talk. We'll talk.

Cool. All right, guys. Go check them out. Jason Fladlin on IG. We'll link to it down below. And we'll see you on the next episode. Peace.

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