Transcription
thinking that buying the software you're going to all of a sudden have sales is like thinking that like why do I not have a shed even though I bought a toolbox from Home Depot. I mean like the toolbox is not going to use itself, right? Like it might be a nice toolbox. It might have all the right tools, but you got to you got to find out which tool to apply where and who's going to apply it and who's going to do it and what materials do I need in order to actually come up with some sort of results. You can have the tools and you can have the fancy documentation, but if you're not factoring in the human element, then you're not really doing anything. I would recommend that there has to be a meeting to discuss whatever it is that the process revolves around and it has to be done on somewhat of a regular basis.
You're watching Contractor Revolution, the podcast by Breakthrough Academy, where we systemize contracting businesses for growth. Keep watching to learn how the world's top contractors scale their companies, build killer teams, and make more while working less. Mustafa, welcome to the show, my friend. Thanks for coming on.
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. We've got uh a pretty jam-packed session. I I was reviewing your YouTube um TED talk which had a million views on it all around building out an installing process and I'm super stoked to get into this with you. But um I'm curious before we even do that, you push analytics, which from my understanding is a marketing agency, analytics agency. You can let me know. But how did you get into that? And how did you end up doing this talk on process which actually was really cool. I thought it was the perfect thing for our audience.
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I I'd say more we're more than just a marketing agency you know we're first full full service digital agency um really helping people and uh also we do you know consulting as well but uh it did flow organically because we did start off as like a growth agency and you know we found pretty quickly that a big part of growth is process right so um just they're kind of one and the same as far as we're concerned.
So you you you have a framework we'll get into it in a little bit but where did this framework even come from experience. Yeah, it's it's yeah, the uh you're talking about the I wanted to talk. So, uh it took me it took me a while to distill it down to a very easy to follow like kind of a framework, especially for the purposes of the talk, but yeah, just it's all based on our experience and actually, you know, helping people improve their processes.
This is where everybody's screwing up all the time. I'm constantly fixing these things and these this is the steps to do it right.
Absolutely.
Okay. Um well I'm curious to know like just just high level before we get into it all but what is the difference between a business process that somebody builds out for their company that does really well people in you know, take it on it becomes a big part of their day-to-day and operationally the staff are using it and something that looks great on paper but doesn't actually go anywhere and dies out like what what's the big difference for people.
There's a big whenever you're building out processes you got to the way I tell people is like you got to consider like a a triangle of things right so you got got to consider like what you need to accomplish, what the business needs to do, you know, all that stuff. Uh the tools that you're going to be using. And the third and very important piece of it is the people who are going to be the operating that process for lack of a better word, right? So the people in it, the sales reps, the service, the service reps, whoever it is that's going to be actually uh working that process. And a lot of times people will fail to consider one or more. But, you know, I think the people part is very very frequently failed to be considered. Um, you know, people build something and it's it's on paper it's great, but like people are like, "Dude, have you actually tried to use this? Like, do you know what we do?" Like, you know, that none of this works and then they just they either say that or they say it themselves and they kind of just move on and don't do it. Don't use it.
They're not bought in. They don't see the reason for it. And is it is it that it's just not practical or is it usually just that people aren't bought in or is it all the above or what what is it?
Yeah, it's a combination. I mean it is a it is a balance. Uh and with a lot of this stuff it's an art not an exact science. So you know part of it is yes you want to make sure that it tailor to some degree to the perspective of you know whoever people are using it. But at the other end you know I mean let's just say you had a sales rep and their their whole thing is like everything's fine the way it is. I don't want to change anything. So so you you're not going to tailor to that because you do want to build out something. Uh right? So u so there's a balance of like hey like uh you know this is this is obviously better but we'll also account for some of your pain points and concerns to make sure that it's it's usable. Uh and then buyin is the other part of it. So yes the other part is like once you've tailored to the extent you can where you've accounted for the different operators and balancing between like the stakeholder needs. Um then you actually got to get buy in and training to people like hey like this is what we're doing this is why it's good this is why it's useful for you. Um and that a lot of times also people uh I'd say really don't do that. So I'd say it's actually both. It's it's the process itself did not even account for um you know the perspective of the people who are actually going to be using it and it's just kind of like a thirst there and that's you know again I'm not saying that do everything based on the perspective that that's not that's not it either but it it just didn't account for at all and there was no bite.
Now there's so much we could talk to about in this. There's two areas that I thought we could narrow in a little bit. One is is just around the idea of putting a CRM or project management software in place into an organization and getting people to use it. I work with a lot of the project management softwares in our industry and I go to their offices and I talk to their customer success teams and the biggest feedback they have is people buy our software thinking it is the process and then they try and install it and it doesn't like they don't actually know what they're doing and so the business doesn't revolve around this at all and it's a big old mismatch and then they retention and that you know anyways.
Dude it this is yes yes I was I was actually just on the podcast and I I mentioned that I mentioned that exact point because they were like was a common misconception or people I was like yeah people will they'll get sold on the features just and they'll think then they'll be like, "Well, my sales aren't up." I Yeah. What did you think was going to happen? That you're going to like put your credit card in and all of a sudden you're going to get sales. I mean, it doesn't work that way, right? Like And we buy more and more software and we've got this weird crazy software stack that nobody knows how to properly use. And now we're trying to get them to use AI and we're like, just use it. This is clawed. Try and make it good.
But there's no definition.
Yeah. Even with AI, all of it, like we we use a lot of AI, but it's like you need to know even AI is a tool, right? I mean, it could do a lot, but it's still a tool and you need to know where to plug in your tools, right? Like just because you have a tool doesn't mean what I tell people, especially, you know, I'm a construction guy. You know, it's like thinking that buying the software you're going to all of a sudden have sales is like thinking that like why do I not have a shed even though I bought a toolbox from Home Depot. I mean, like the toolbox is not going to use itself, right? Like it might be a nice toolbox. might have all the right tools, but you got to you got to find out which tool to apply where and who's going to apply it and who's going to do it and what materials do I need in order to actually come up with some sort of result. So, it can definitely help you get there, but there's work to be done to for that to happen.
Yeah. It's kind of like if I'm going to go build a house, I can have all the tools to go build the house, but I still have to know how to build the house and what the steps are going to be along the way to make sure this thing actually gets built.
And you have to have you have to have blueprints. You have to have a plan. So, it's like yeah, you got to be able to like actually look at the blueprints and be like, what are we doing? And that's and people understand that when it comes to physical things, but it's the same thing with software, right? It's just a digital version of the physical thing. So, it's if you you don't go in, you just don't just go in and buy like a massive software like a CRM without having some sort of plan of attack of like, okay, what are we going to do when we have it? Right? So, that's where that blueprint that comes in. That's where like kind of mapping out your process and all that stuff that we talk about comes into play.
So, let's get into it. Let's you have this thing called the optimize framework. Let's maybe define it a little bit so we understand it and let's piece by piece go through it and actually bring this in context to implementing say a CRM system for our sales teams to use regularly within a contracting business.
Yeah, absolutely. So basically we put together this framework and and this was the uh this was in in the talk uh where you know you have the different steps that you would uh that you would incorporate into the uh to be able to actually build a good process. So it's the process of building out a process. So um we we don't without going into like each individual wording uh definition but the general idea is in order to first start the first step that you want to do is you need to be able to look at where you're at right now. So you need to observe you need to observe where you're at uh you know right now and see like hey where uh what's happening what's what's currently working not working you know um what you know what do we uh what do we need to improve all that all that good stuff. You got to you got to look at it from right now where where do we start? And what one thing I'll tell people when I'm uh actually uh talking to them and doing consults. It's like look, you just tell me what you're doing right now. Even if what you're doing is we scribble stuff at a napkin and we hand it to each other and you know and that's how we, you know, process quotes or whatever. That's that's fine. And there's no like there's no like wrong answer. It's not like trying to tell somebody you're doing it bad or whatever. It it just we need to know where we're starting from, right? Um and and you can think of this in your life. If you're if you're getting in your car and you you know you first the first thing you want to do is like where well you know where you are right so you kind of you're already alert of where you are you either put that on your phone now obviously it knows that you know your location but before you know you'd have to put it in on a a map quest or whatever but you you say like okay here's here's where I am um and then the next thing is like well where am I trying to go right so it's and that's the same thing that's that's the uh that's the step after you know kind of looking at thing which is picture you got to picture where am I trying to actually go with my business same thing got to get in your car you don't just start driving. Nobody ever gets in their car and just like, "All right, I'm going to start. We're going on vacation. I'm going to start driving." I mean, like, where? Like, right, where am I going? Like, right? So, you got to figure out where are you going? Um, so, um, so that's, you know, hey, we we would like to see ourselves, you know, having uh, you know, much more much smoother operations, much you know, uh, we'd like to get our cost down for managing this thing. We, you know, we in the talk I give the, uh, give the example the assembly line. So, people can go look at that. Uh, but, you know, what what were they looking at? They wanted to to get cost down to a certain to for cars to a certain amount and built at a certain speed, right? So that they can be able to like do it at mass mass scale. So uh that's the second part of it. Um and then after that it's like okay now then you can start basically mapping out how you're going to get there. So that's to t which is the tailoring. So those are kind of like the beginning part. So the beginning part of the optimized framework is really assessment, right? We can we can group that all into assessment. I go but I don't want to I don't want to go to through the whole thing. I I'm going to back up a bit. I'm going to go through this properly. So, step by step. So, we we start with this observe piece and then the thing I think about is like as an owner,
I've got my own bias opinion of what I observe. I've got my own lens at which I see things through. And so, am I just going through my own organization and being like, I can see that our sales process sucks and when I delegate it out to my team, our closing ratios are down from what they used to be and I've got all these opinions about what needs to be fixed. Am I just leading this in my own way? How am I getting the insights and involvement of those involved, the other people in the company? Like how much is this just about me as an owner making decisions on my observations?
Yeah. I Yeah, I usually if it's okay, the the problem you mentioned at the beginning early on where like there's no buy in or people aren't using the process. If you end up, hey, I'm just going to be an owner. I'm going to just make decisions. I'm not going to consult anybody. You will probably end up with that problem. Okay. Um, so it's it's that is a part of it for sure, but it's not it's not only like a good process is taking into account kind of two things. What the business like needs to accomplish and then also like the people that are working on it, like what they need to feel while they're doing it or like the things they need to do while they're doing it. Um, and also like the customer side as well like right. So like you also have to work within the constraints of you know the the mark like if people are expecting to buy something online and you're like okay but online is hypothetically like just online is like too complicated for our business to fill so we don't want to sell online at all well that's not a that's not a good solution like that doesn't that's just that that's you the the whole physics behind the business like you still have to follow right so um uh but anyhow u so I part of it is that I mean like right observing but I would also kind of go and like talk to people right so let's just say you're trying to solve for like sales like hey why are our sales so inefficient like you know we seem to quote like the quotes take us forever to put out we're quoting so many jobs that we're not winning what's happening so okay you're going to start you can look at whatever numbers or whatever information you might have if you have anything but I would also go talk to the people like dude like yo why are you quoting so much like what's going on let me see some of those quotes like right like hey what's happening here like are we just high like you know like pricing wise are we like is our pricing high are we um you know are we quoting the wrong people who are we quoting I actually start and almost investigate and ask questions to the people who are actually part of whatever process you're trying to optimize.
Right? So, it's still ultimately up to me as the owner, but I'm going to go and talk to all the stakeholders and just say, "Hey,
Yeah, that's why that's why the first step is not about decisions. It's about that's why it's called observe. It's just you're literally observing. You got to observe and and obviously I observe, you want to interrogate, whatever you want to do like but like it's like you like you need to take in, you need to input. You you you can't make a decision yet. is not the decision phase yet. The decision comes when you're actually mapping stuff out. That's fine. You know, you as the owner could do that or whatever, but um before that, you really need to go in and be like, "Okay, what is happening right now?" And there's no there's no opinions in that. It's more so getting to the bottom of like what is actually happening like right it's it's a very relatively objective thing. Um I would say some people take it subjectively which is not good, right? Some people are like, "Oh, like I'm the owner. I know what's happening. Like, yeah, this is why like I'll tell you like, yeah, all sales will doubt. It's just because that one customer sucks." Like, and it's like, okay, like that's that's fine. That's what you think. That's what you feel, but like that that may or may not necessarily be true. You need to actually go and figure it out, right? It could be true, but you can't operate it that way, right? You have to know for sure what's actually happening.
Hey, you said something important, which is just like objectively observing, which is hard to do sometimes when you go into an issue that you're like, "Hey, this is costing us a million dollars a year in loss sales." I mean, I've seen this before. We went through 2008 and our um sales ratio dropped from I think it was like 40% down to like 28%. And I was like, "Hey, maybe this is just the market, but there is something internally going on where we we've become quite lazy." And I've got some thoughts and ideas I want to go fix right now. And so, it was hard for me to like step back and actually think is like, is my opinion right? It might be, but it has to be proven first through objective truth, which is usually more than just my own like seething opinion as an entrepreneur.
Yeah. Yeah. And I mean like there there's obviously something to be said for like gut and I think all all entrepreneurs know that like gut plays a role like right in into things.
Um and that's fine. And I think when you get later on in the process of making a process then at some point you know you're not going to get everything perfect and you're going to have to like kind of just make decision on something and that's fine. Uh but it just especially the first step early on it's like I have my initial hypothesis like just give yourself some time to like okay am I like your example is great right is it are we really actually screwing up or is it the market or whatever I I think we're screwing up but let me go find out like right then you go talk to people and then maybe you talk to people you're like actually we're actually doing pretty good actually people it turns out that they're down more than we are so you know we're actually like weathering the storm like quite a bit um you know and maybe we shouldn't change anything right so that could be you know, but yeah,
I've seen that before, too. And actually, we've done that at BTA where we've over systemized things and over complicated things because we're trying to solve problems and we add more things or tools to the problem and it only makes it worse.
But, okay. So, absolutely, first step is observe. So, I'm just objectively observing with my staff, with my customer, with my company, with myself what is going on, what are the what's the good, bad, and the ugly? and just trying to really understand it for what it truly is and keep my, you know, my I guess bias opinion out of it, but still allow me the entrepreneur to take make the final call.
Okay. You said picture was next. So now I'm building a bit of a vision of where we want to go. What what's involved in this? What's what's a good version of this, a bad version of this? Tell me a bit about picture.
Yeah. And picture picture that's kind of where um I would say you as entrepreneur now it's like okay let's say I'm consulting with you. I'm like okay what are you trying to accomplish right now? like right maybe you're like oh hey like I'd love to uh you know quote more jobs or I'd love like for our operations to be a little bit more efficient you know I'd love for the ops guys to not be so stressed out so that we can actually handle a couple more customers uh right so that's like kind of like defining the vision of where you want to be uh right so that that is going to be I would say um probably more uh more owner centric in this in this scenario right because you probably already have an idea of like this is what I would love to be doing that uh yeah but again you could also incorporate other people's like hey I talked to my head of ops and he would love like you know that he has a little bit more heads up when it comes to onboarding people or to you know starting a project or whatever right like he has a little bit more heads up and he he would love more time to plan right for example so he incorporate that in so again that could be driven by the entrepreneur uh but but it would also go down and incorporate to the people like you know what does that take from their end to accomplish this or how can how can we help them you know on that end as well. So yeah, so it'd be like, you know, in doing this, I think I would love to see our closing ratios go up by 10%. I would love to see our sales to production handoff be smoother. I would love to make sure that every lead we get in is communicated within 24 hours and our brand is elevated as an overall customer experience right from lead all the way to invoice. And it's like starting to write some of that out and it involves I guess KPIs. It involves like a picture of what it looks like and involves all the parties involved. Is that fair to say?
Yep. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. No, some of the stuff you gave was very very specific, which is good. Like it's like Yeah. Yeah. Well, like I love the answer leave within 24 hours. It's a very specific place that we picture ourselves being and that's that's good. Yeah. Absolutely.
Someone would probably yell at me and tell me we got to get back to them now within 5 minutes. But
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, whatever. It's just an example, right? And it depends on the depends on the business and what replying actually entails and stuff like that. But yeah, for sure.
But it's specific. It's it's Yeah, that that's one thing I even want to point out too is I think you can people can just say the vision is to make our sales process better, but what does better mean? And actually, one thing I've even realized, this is a little bit different than building out process, but we've did this in building software, man. Like, when you try and say something like this cake is a yellow cake with green candles on it, everybody pictures a different cake. And so, if you're too vague and you don't give enough specifics on what you're really trying to achieve, everyone else can think about what they're going to go build and it can be a completely different version of that same description.
Absolutely. Yeah. And being specific is hard by the way because a lot of times it's like you know you just take shortcuts and it's like yeah maybe I maybe I come to this like what do you want to do? I want to go I want to grow sales. Cool. So does everybody else like right? Like that's not really a plan right like you know that's just like okay like a nice to have. What does that actually mean? Like what are we looking at exactly? cuz you do got to focus in and a lot of times as entrepreneurs you know and we all do this like it's like you think and you're like okay you almost think that by focusing that you're leaving stuff on the table because you're compromising the other stuff but it's not true it's like a policy like so you know if I if um you know you're talking to somebody and you're like okay like what what niche do you want to focus on or what niche are you focusing on or whatever and they almost think that like by focusing on a niche that means that they're like kind of leaving out all this other stuff that that they could also be doing and making more money and whatever but it you It's they're not like mutually exclusive things like you could you can focus for the purposes of this conversation for the purposes of building this process and then you can still be broad in other things right like it's not you know but I think we're a lot of times it's like entrepreneurs are wired to think that way so that's just something to kind of like watch out for.
I also found for myself I have a vision in my head and because it's so clear for me I skip on writing that out the details because it's just I'm connecting the dots in my head. Do you know what I mean by that? I'm kind of like yeah like I generally can see what better looks like. So when I say it verbally, I have this vision of it, but I forget that nobody else can climb into my brain and see what I'm seeing.
I've done that before, too, with with things like, you know, trying to get a content creator or whatever. And it's like, okay, like, oh, like, why do you not get it yet? I think it's I was talking to I was talking to somebody else and and he had the same problem. I think it's an entrepreneur thing. I think it really is. It's like, okay, you're you have to work at a million miles a minute. So, it's like, you know, you kind of assume that everybody else is, but they're not and they don't know what's in your head and it's not fair to them. Uh so it's like you got to kind of take a step back and actually like uh that's why forcing yourself to be specific actually really helps actually doing the doing the TED talk was was a good experience in that because it was like they're really you know, it's like their whole format right, they 15 minutes they want you at 15 minutes like they start freaking out if you got to like 16 minutes they're freaking out you got you really you really got to get off the stage like so um so it's like so and people have to like really practice their what they're trying to say to get it to 15 minutes. So I you know like I like my presentation I took it and I threw it in the garbage a couple times. Like I said start over like right like I I know what I wanted to say but um I really had to condense it and bring it down and like you know like really focus on being very very specific with every word. Um, you know, because you also don't want to be looking at a piece of paper or something either. So yeah, like really have to be specific where every word is specific. Um, and it's it's not that easy right? Like you remember how um I don't know it's a tribute to who? Like Benjamin Franklin or something, but it's like you know, sorry my uh my letter is too long because I didn't have time to write it shorter, you know? It's like a it's like an irony like writing shorter and more specific actually takes more time.
It's it's interesting too what we're talking about because I talk a lot about this in like strategic planning for the entire company, but we're talking about just like a specific process within a company. We're still taking that same methodology and saying let's, you know, let's go out and observe what's really going on and let's build a vision for this one element of the entire company and be that intentional about it.
Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. And you you have to you have to work somewhere even if you're revamping all your processes which you can and should you know at some point like right any business should but um you still have to focus at a given point at a given moment right like so it's like right now we're going to focus on sales and then we're going to go to ops like right you you there there's a certain context that you have to have when you're doing a task so.
Let's talk a bit about tailor so this is the next step so I've kind of defined my vision for it I've observed what needs to be observed now I'm starting to I guess is it like dropping a rough draft of what this is going to look like or what exactly does this mean?
Yeah. So I mean like here that tends to take a lot of time especially when we're doing it working with other companies or like you know okay like let's map out what we think that's going to look like and then you can look at it and you we can make certain tweaks but basically laying everything out right actually drawing out the map. We like to process map a lot. You could write it out however way you want. Uh but putting it all in front of you on paper somewhere where it's like okay I can see what this is going to look like okay like here's the first step that we're gonna have here's the second step here's whatever um and I would recommend spending some time here uh because this really helps things kind of work later a lot of times what we'll see like for example we'll come into people's like CRM and they've been set up from before whatever and then I like what what are all these automations and we want to know what what is this can we can we turn it on or off we don't know like is it even working we don't know like who set it up uh some guy set it up like years ago and he's out with us and we don't we don't know what like do you need it? Like we don't know like it's like they don't know anything because nothing really mapped out anywhere. There's no guide and it was just like something set up and forgotten and that's it, right? And it's it's like becomes very hard to do anything. Um, you know, and very hard to use a tool and and then people just end up with a tool that they're not using. So, um, so that that that part really helps with that because especially if you if you built it, you know, if you built it from a map, just like in construction, if you usually do build something from blueprints, but if you built it from blueprints, well, you it's kind of easy to find out what you built. You can just go back to blueprints and be like, "Oh, there was supposed to be a wire there. Oh, there was a there was a oh, there's a pipe behind this wall. Oh, okay." Like, you know, and you just that's it. It's you don't have to guess. You don't have to like remember anything. You don't have to call Joe like five years later and be like, "Joe, where'd you put the pipe?" Like, it's just all there. It's the same thing here, right? If you build it, if you put a map together first and then you built it from the map, you will know when you forgot what something was, you'll just go back to the black and be, "Oh, that's what we're supposed to. Okay, I got it. We know how to fix it."
The specific to designing workflow or sales process in a CRM. Often do you have to just throw away everything that people have created in the past and start from scratch because I do find it is a bit even for us we use Zoho it's a bit of a rat's nest and it's like 10 year ago developer that worked on it, you know, to this year and now we have an internal person but I'm like at some point I'm like man I just wish we could throw all this away look at even a completely fresh system if we need to and start from scratch. Is that when should you do that when should you not?
That is a viable solution and sometimes we do recommend that yeah I mean and like I I'm even in personal life like I I'm a believer in in doing that. I mean, giving the example to talk like I spent time on on what a single track for a while and I'm like, "No, this is not it." Like I'm throwing the whole thing out like, "All right, just start over because it's like and that kind of like almost forces your brain to reset, too." Now, obviously with business, you want to do that with some consideration, right? So, um what starting over, you know, may not may mean different things depending on where you're at and how much you're using it. We we advise on that. So, for example, it might be like, "Okay, look, we're going to Sometimes people have like all these duplicates in their databases and all this like messy database where they're like, "We just want to start over." I'm like, "That's that's fine. Let's make sure we archive everything first. You know, you have a copy somewhere like right uh we'll maybe make a like a sublist of only the deals and the um contacts that are active right now." Like, right, people with active stuff because we don't want to like necessarily completely wipe the board. If there's something active, like we want to keep it on there and then we'll start over for the new stuff, right? So, um, so there there's there's stuff like that, right? It's like kind of balancing out or sometimes it's like, hey, we're going to have a cut off date. Anything that was before, uh, I don't know, February of 2026, we're going to just archive it. Anything after that, we'll we'll actually put, you know, in our new system, right? So that way it's like, okay, it gives us some history, but then we also we also can like kind of clear our minds, right? Um, and uh, yeah, we we a lot of times that ends up being a good play because people also get overwhelmed. It's like if your system is so messy and everything is like so junk that like you're going to sit there and be like, "Oh man, I have to like I have to revamp every single contact to fit the new system and add their information and whatever." And then it's like then you're just not going to do anything like you got to just like you got to rip off the band-aid at some point.
One thing as you're talking I'm just thinking about something that's come with our members a lot and actually me which is like every software I've ever used is like even the best selection after doing a ton of research is like 80% good for what my vision actually is and is 20% has these weird things that it just can't do what I want it to do and so actually a lot of times the mess comes from me forcing it and being like I'm going to create this API and this custom thing and this unique paper process for Sally to do on a Friday whatever it is right and now I've created this complicated thing just to get it to be my way, especially in the in the space of us purchasing monthly subscription software. How much should we be fighting to make it that vision we created versus to succumb to the way it's been designed to be used?
I think that tailor step would actually would actually help you answer that question because when you map things out and you start seeing how all the pieces are fitting together like we did that before we we mapped out like you know what the process was and how we're going to tweak it and stuff like that and I remember um the CTO for that company actually texted me after and he was like thank you for helping us understand what we're doing better than you know even we understood it right because now they saw it all and they're like oh that fits there oh you know what we don't really need notifications here. Actually, we do need a notification here or we need more reminders here. So, everything's like laid out and now now it becomes very clear like, you know, when you're in it, when you're like actually working the process, it's not you're kind of like just grinding at it, right? It's like it's like you're in your car at a traffic light, right? You're looking at the traffic light. You're not like you're not zoomed out in your head and like, you know, understanding the interstate highway system and like how it links to each other. You're not able to see that from your car looking at a traffic light. But if you sit there and look at Google Maps, you will see that, right? Like if you actually sit there and plan it out and like, okay, where am I going? Like what's happening, right? So, it's the same thing when you're able to um zoom out and see and that's why I'll tell people people like okay um hey we have the CRM or HubSpot what like whatever whatever CRM it's like hey we uh they have this feature they have this feature and what about this feature what about this I'm like listen hold up for the features like we're going to get.
All the plugins though Mustafa all the plugins.
We're going to get to the features and they go these companies are adding features like a you know a million a minute now so it's like people get overwhelmed with the features and it's like guys we'll get to the features first let's find out what we need and and we'll tell you what features that you need to actually make it work, right? Um, and that's really the way that I recommend going about it cuz now you're going from like a needs first approach, you know, and then you can kind of see for yourself like, uh, you know what, I don't really need that API or actually I do need that API. That's like like that's like the whole project, right? Like you know what, I yes, I'm going to die on the hill of that API now because I can see that it's very important. Might be either or, but I think you'll know when you actually do that. That's why that's really important.
This kind of goes along with this, but how do you do this? Because how do you determine what looks good on paper versus what's practically actually going to be used in the field? Like how much should I be building this thing to the nth degree before I ever show it to anybody versus kind of building.
You don't want to overbuild. You don't want to overbuild and you don't want to you don't want to overbuild and you don't want to underbuild. And it is it is an art. Again, that's part of the art part like right because people sometime think a better process means like I built more layers into it. I built I have more tools. Uh you know, I have more fancy diagrams. I have a longer document. That is not true. And I'm not saying that. Uh right. You know, uh you also don't want to like underbuild and be like, okay, we're going to just not have a process, which I mean, everybody has a process, right? It's just a philosophical thing that like everybody has a diet, right? So, it just that means I just don't care about it. So, um um but we're going to have like basically nothing right now. So, um you don't you don't want to overbuild for sure. Um, and you I think the way to realize that you don't need to overbuild is to understand that it's not a one and done. This isn't like, you know, somebody that's like, I don't know. I mean, this is like people like maybe like building a house or something and they're like, okay, I want to build this house and I want to live in it. I mean, nobody really does that anymore, but let's just say like, right, I want to build this house and I want to live in it and uh, you know, this is like my dream house, forever house, whatever. So, I want to make sure I have this. What about this? What about we want to have a kid later? So like I want to add an extra room here. And what about like you know when my parents get older and like they want to come in and we have to have a guest room. We have to do this because like okay like you're trying to put everything you're trying to really figure out everything uh in that space because you don't want to ever do this again. That's not the case here like right. It's like it's a living thing right. So it's like okay like you're actually sometimes that is detrimental like you know there's somebody um you know we're kind of I'm kind of helping consulting also a friend of mine and it was like you know um he's building out processes whatever which is great uh but some of the stuff is like really like I'm like dude you know you're not a you're not like a 300 employee company I know you want to be that but also you don't want to overbuild to that point because if you over to the 300 employee company we're a 10 employee company you're not even going to get to become a 300 employee because you're going to like just collapse under the weight of things that you don't need right now. Like it's actually not like the the different what what that company needs and what this company needs are not the same thing. So you're not even you can't you shouldn't and you you don't want to do that. So uh so it's definitely uh yeah balancing that out is huge.
Yeah. I call it like maybe like minimum viable product. It's kind of like I've got my vision and then I've got what we're actually going to release to the team which is not everything in that vision day one. We kind of need to get to the minimum viable element of it where every part of the process and workflow is in and then we can add features and benefits to it as we see improve ourselves through the year. Is that fair to say?
Yeah. And that's why yeah if you have like a living map that makes it easy. So if you've mapped it out and then you're like all right this is what we built. We're building couple new things for sales. Okay. And then later you're like, you know, I want
To okay, it's going good. Sales say sales is looking good. I want to add more stuff. Let me let me pull up the map and let me see. Oh, okay. I can add this here. I can add this here. And then maybe you start making like a different color or whatever or like you know, different font and just show like okay, this is this is what I'm proposing to add. And then you know you add it and then you come back and you have the map, right? So, um, it makes it so easy to refer back to like even even for us like we work on so many different companies, so many different projects. Sometimes like I I don't you know I got to go back to you know talk to somebody about something we did a while ago. I pull up the map that I did and I'm like, "Oh, okay. I remember now." Like, "Yeah, it was like two years ago." I remember now. Like, I I remember what we were doing. Like, it it's it's very it makes it so much easier. If I didn't have that, I wouldn't remember either. Like, I don't know. I don't know what we did two years ago, but talked to like dozens of companies since, like, great.
So, um, yeah, >> when it comes to this, like we're talking a lot about software right now. When it comes to software, it can get a bit tunnel vision on like the features and the benefits and the workflow and everything like clicking around in this thing in my computer. What else am I doing in Taylor that has nothing to do with the software? Am I building my SOPs right now or am I not? Am I building out the training manual to get people to use it? But like what else am I doing in Taylor or am I just thinking through the workflow?
>> No, I mean Oh, in the tailor step. So, uh, like really after you do want to think through like you're going to start thinking through like what features you're going to need. It's going to like kind of become more uh visual. I mean the step after that is uh implementing, right? So then when you're implementing then you're really diving into the software and actually configuring it and actually like lining stuff up and stuff like that. Um, and you kind of document you kind of document u SOPs. You could do it in Taylor, you could do it a little bit later. That's fine. Um, but um, but yeah, you definitely want to be able to you're going to I think the tailor step is going to help you start identifying what features are need for software and what are my people going to be doing with within the process, right? Um, and then starting to think think things from their uh perspective as well.
>> Have I have I even picked a software solution at this point or am I still just going >> usually like usually like in practice like usually we've we know we're going to use something. Yeah. Like right we just not >> I just don't go into the weeds of the features until this point. Right. Hey, like that's all that's what I was saying like like people will come to us like we're HubSpot partner and people will be like like they know they want to use HubSpot and like you know that's fine and we're we're okay with them using HubSpot obviously but like it just uh it's just like okay like let's not talk about like the individual nuance features of like you know this automatic email or this thing or whatever until we actually know what what we what do we need to do? What are we trying to do first? So uh that that's really where that comes in.
>> Okay. So, yeah, we're kind of holding off on naming names yet or labeling products and services we're using. We're just kind of thinking through the workflow of it. We're thinking through what is practical and then we're going to go down and in next stage it says implement or build it out. Give us a bit some insight on how we do this correctly.
>> Yeah. So I mean the implementing is is is kind of what you would expect, right? So you're going to build you're going to build out what you have a map already. You already know what you're trying to do. So implementing should actually be easy. Uh implementing is not the hardest step, believe it or not. Like, you know, uh when we do this stuff it's like people people will sometimes like be thinking like I'll be talking to people about the scope like our scope or whatever and they're like oh like this and I'm like, you know, like the implementing part is is easy like that's not hard at all it's actually getting to the point where everything's clean to be implemented right like having that clean process that factoring in everything interviewing all the stakeholders making sure everybody like actually you know uh was factored into whatever we're building out u that's that's really what's what's harder so uh yeah the implementing is is kind of what you would.
But yeah, and can we talk about this for a second because like what just visually how much work goes into all the things we just talked about before you start implementation like as a percent of overall like time >> as a like how much work it just depends I mean by the way like some some of these things could like sometimes like the solution is quick right so for example like let's just say you have like an issue with uh I don't know you can't keep track of quotes or something and and maybe you're like not that big so you're like okay maybe you w up a solution This is a quick literal solution. Like, hey, we're going to do Okay, our issue is that we can't keep track of quotes. Um, we don't have good reporting. Okay, we'd like to have better reporting and better visibility. Okay, so that's the second step. Okay, the third step, um, you know, I'm going to map it out and be like, okay, we're going to have a we're going to have a meeting. We're going to log stuff into a spreadsheet and then we're going to, you know, talk about in meeting like like this is like the map and then okay, implement. I'm setting up a spreadsheet, you know, uh, and uh, and then the next steps where you actually like train the team or whatever. Guys, starting now, you have to come in every Monday morning so that we do a meeting. So, we talk about our sales like right like that that could be done in like two days like right. So, or even a day. Um, that's like an example of like a quick fix like right. It's just like a one, two, three and and that is still a process like right and that is still and sometimes that is actually the best process for that moment in time. So, um, even though it's not so fancy or whatever, uh, but tons are great, like that that works great. It's actually a very good format that I tend to recommend a lot, especially in the sales context. Like we used to, cuz I worked in sales, construction sales, and our our sales manager, he was he was very good, like he had a very good intuition, uh, which was great. Like, I want to follow from him. I still keep in touch with him. Um, and, um, he, um, one of the things he did was we had a meeting every week like didn't have people on the road, people running around. This was before like, you know, people generally worked remote. So it like um, but as sales like you you did anyways. So, um, people on the road whatever it didn't matter but but you have to come in Monday like Monday was like the non-negotiable day you had to come in and we had to have a meeting and we had talk we went around and just talked about what everybody's doing and that was it like right like that was in you know, and and it was like in his for him it worked cuz he had a really good memory so he was able to actually keep track of like what everybody's doing just based on that like oh okay like you said you were doing this job last week did you close it like hey what happened like hey you said you were doing that like two weeks ago you said this. So here I should keep track and like ask and you know it worked because it was a good stop gap for like like having a good stop gap is actually a very good way to keep your processes in check because like no matter what happened throughout the week even if like yeah me and you were supposed to talk or collaborate on something and we forgot or we didn't or whatever we got busy or whatever we were forced to interact on Monday right so Monday I'm going to be like I'm working on this job oh shoot I'm working on it too like if my customer needs a bit too and then okay let's talk about it now okay like let's talk about it now or let's huddle for 5 minutes after the meeting. Now we're forced to do it. So it's like a nice stop gap, right? So that actually works pretty well.
>> This is also what I mean by like outside of the software, all the other things that need to be thought through, right? Like if I'm, you know, running a sales team, I'm going to want to have the workflow put in there. I'm going to want to have certain KPIs that I want to measure, you know, goal versus actuals for the team. I want to use those KPIs in a meaningful way. So you just mentioned having like a weekly meeting or something to hold accountability and rigor around the fact that we're hitting or missing goals and we're implementing changes, right? And there's probably >> keep talking one sec. I gotta put them on my charger then. >> And then there's probably some documentation and some SOPs around the whole thing. So I've tailored up this process as I'm doing implementation. What what are all the is that kind of it? Is it like what are the team meetings? What are the SOPs? What is the software we're using? Like what are the things I need to be aware of? Because the thing I watch with a lot of contractors is like I've got the software, it does the thing. I'm training my team, but there's nothing else around it that makes it real, that makes it a part of the company.
>> Yeah. I mean and that's for sure and that that that I think people miss that a lot. It's like okay you have um that's what I said early that human element in that triangle I think is the most missed side of the triangle. It's like you you can have the tools and you can have the fancy documentation but if you're not factoring in the human element then you're not really doing anything like right at the end of the day like you know um so uh and uh even even systems of government right like they'll tell you like u there's like a famous quote like you know whatever like all these countries have all these things but like at the end of day like it's like if there's no enforcing mechanism then it's just words on paper like right like it's it's it's you see that right like Um, so, uh, so the same thing like here, like if there's no real mechanism to actually do stuff, then it's just words on paper, right? Like you're not actually doing anything with it, like anything. So that's why I like having like some sort of, um, some sort of cadence, uh, you know, in general, uh, which which forces the enforcement. That that's like the easiest win for me. What I just told you with the meetings, right? It's it's it's easy. People can understand it. People can remember like, okay, I got to show up every Monday. All right, whatever. Or Google Meet, whatever. I'm not saying like you have to be in person but um that was just my example but um you know hey every Monday we have to meet you know um every two weeks even we have to meet whatever every month whatever it is like might whatever makes sense for the business but like I would recommend that there has to be a meeting to discuss whatever it is that the process revolves around um and it has to be done on somewhat of a regular basis you know whether you want to do every week every two twice a week you know whatever makes sense for the business that's fine now what I wouldn't do is I wouldn't do it too OD some people get so excited and they're like all right fine we're going to be every day to talk about this okay you're not like you're going to say that and you're going to do it for like 2 days and you're not going to do it again and then it's the same problem. So you got to that's why I'll tell people like just do something manageable like whatever it's every two weeks that's fine. If you be every two weeks and you're actually forcing yourself, you'd be surprised how fast time goes by and you're like, "Oh, shoot. We still haven't considered this. Like, it's been four months. We did talk about this." Like that like when so when you're talk people like will like almost like overestimate time when they're planning out things ahead and underestimate time backwards. It's like a weird like dichotomy. So, you know, if I if you tell somebody sometimes I tell business like dude like look have the sales team meet every month or every two weeks every two weeks every month that's crazy that's so long whatever but then it's like wait a minute you have something that hasn't been addressed for six weeks seven weeks like time flu like that if we were meeting every two weeks you actually would have caught it right like so um so yeah I think that's a big that's a big part of it people will you know have to misestimate that a little bit.
>> Yeah, the things I'm just listening to you say but it's just kind of like okay if we're going to implement this we need to have the software decided upon and used. We need to have probably some training, I would imagine, to teach everyone how to use this.
>> We need >> always, always, that's one of the steps. You always want to have training. You never not want to have training. That's like a huge mistake, by the way.
>> Yeah. So, let me even talk about that a little more. Like, what is good training? What is bad training? I've seen it done both ways, right? I've seen training where it's like, all right, we're launching this new thing and everyone's like, great, and they have a one-hour meeting around it and that's it. And it's like what is good training for people to actually >> you want to get to give buy in to also give people benefits that are for them and not just like >> there there's a balance where like the company kind of wants to do this but also this is beneficial for you because of X and Y and Z right like okay like look this is going to make your life easier look if you put this in and you go on vacation you know the next person's going to be able to pick up and not have to bother you about like what jobs you're recording because they can just see them and we can just have them we just work without calling you right and um the kind like showing people the buy in from like this is beneficial for you but also like you know this is what we all want to do and this is kind of what we're going to do. Um find that balance I think is like important. Um and making sure like they have the right information available so that they know how to use the system. Now there is a certain point with certain people not everybody where it's like you're going to have to kind of be like okay dude like listen we've done it. we've kind of accommodated things, but like we really need you to do this like just just like that's it, right? Cuz cuz it's also like I worked in sales and I like to say sales people are like tend to be process resistant in a sense. So like they kind of like I like everything's in my head or whatever and that's and that's fine. By the way, a lot of times that is kind of true. But even if everything's in your head and you're like 90 95% good, which is pretty good, but that means that that 5% are things that you could maybe not have closed. Um, and you know, with how big tickets are in construction, that that's that could be a lot of money actually. So, uh, uh, so yeah, that that's that's a big u uh that's that's a big part of it. Um, like really making sure you you kind of have that. I think you were going to say something.
>> Yeah, I'm just thinking about buying. Um like so we're doing this right now internally but for like our assessment phase which would be the equivalent of like the estimate side of you know when you're doing a quote for a customer the buyin actually is really coming from having the people who actually do that part of the work be a big part of the buildout and the actual like deciding factor of like what are we actually building what are we actually not so it's kind of their ideas that we're putting in place more than they're just ours. Um, I've got my head of sales, me, my um, our sales ops person, and then our assessment people kind of all involved. And it's a bit more work up front, >> but we're gathering everyone's ideas, and there's kind of like an agreement after that of what we're doing. So, when it comes to full circle to actually like training and implementing, they're like, yeah, yeah, this is the stuff that I wanted to have changed. I'm like, >> yeah, >> good. This is you coming to me now, not me coming to you. But I found like buyin comes often before at the end. It's kind of during that initial like I guess you call it like the tailoring phase to get it right.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I mean like I would say yes that that that's that's and that's even even early on when you were like hey if it's just like just me the owner just deciding things and that's >> you kind of don't want to do that for that reason like right that's one of the reasons actually like okay if you just me deciding things well you're not going to have the buy in like you're just not right. So, um, you know, and again, it it's it's balancing like how much level of buyin you get. Like you're not if you have a big sales team, let's say you have 20 sales, you're not going to sit there and get like the buying of all 20 sales people. Like you're not going to do that. But you may have like, okay, I'm going to have like my more process-oriented sales people sit on calls with us and um, you know, and kind of like buy into like what we're doing. Um, and and that that's fine, like, right? You may have like a little bit of, you know, sprinkled buyin, let's just call it, in there um to uh to kind of like help out. So um uh yeah so I I would say uh I would say yeah getting some critical level of buyin definitely helps things move smoother and then you also have champions you know for this so if it's like okay it can't just be you right so like somebody has a question like everybody has to come to like you okay go to the saleserson who was involved in the build oh like do you know how I can do this oh yeah just do this okay and then it actually gives more chances for the thing to actually work out and work.
So, I just want to recap a bit, but it's like we've taken some time to observe objectively what's going on. We then build a vivid vision or a picture of what great's going to look like and really gives it specifics. We then start to tailor out a bit of a road map without thinking of specific software or people's names or anything, but we're like tailoring out an objective road map of what this what what this would look like. We then start to put it in place. We put in the right software, put in some training, put in some SOPs, put in some maybe meetings and rhythms around all this >> and we're starting to instruct it into the team so that everyone's starting to use it. Once I've got that moving, is that it? You've got this kind of stage around like zoom out, evolve, like what what am I doing once it's in place?
>> Yeah, I'll answer that. Although you want to correct something in the tailor, you you can no you would be looking at whatever software you're using at that stage like okay, hey, we want to put this feature here. >> You you can basically split the tailor into like two parts. first like let's come up with the map overall what we want and then like let's start filling in okay we need a we need a reminder here automation here like you know Sarah needs to like you know quarterback this like whatever like no no you you would definitely >> by the time you finish that stage you would definitely have specific software stuff otherwise what are you building right so that yeah just to clear that up now uh as far as um yeah like the last thing I have from the E and optimize the final one is evolve right so you want to be able to like actually monitor everything look at what's happening look at the data you know good process will yield some data. So, you're going to come out and be like, "Okay, like I'm I'm able to, you know, track my sales a little bit better. Oh, I'm seeing that our sales went up, our sales went down, whatever, right?" Like, yeah. Um, and you want to monitor and observe uh and then come back and be like, "Okay, like what can we uh, you know, what can we evolve? What do we need to improve, you know?" So, no, it's not it. It's supposed to be a living supposed to be a living thing. And I think the misconception that people think that it is it is what makes them so paralyzed to actually finish the project is to actually use the thing to actually get information right because because if you do think it is it like in the house example I gave then now you really have to sit there and analyze par paralyze yourself to come up with every single possible outcome and scenario and edge case. Just jam it all in there so you can build it in this supposed dream house and you know never have to build anything again. But that's you're not going to actually be able to effectively do that. Number one. Number two, it's actually counterproductive to do that. And number three, it is not it is not it does need to evolve over time. You do need to you know sit there and like review and assess and and you should people shouldn't be scared of that. Um, but you know, if we to me if you manage to if I took a sales team and it was like you know we had nothing at all like we didn't even talk to each other right and people just were doing our thing and I got them to everybody fills out stuff with something on a spreadsheet and you know what a spreadsheet maybe is 100% accurate but it's like 80% accurate that's a win like right like that yeah if you just go tell somebody hey our sales process is that we have a spreadsheet and it's not 100% accurate it's 80% accurate that Sounds you might sound like that sounds awful but like if if you had nothing before that's actually a huge win.
>> The arrow is pointing in the right direction.
>> Yeah. You're moving in that direction, right? And that that's huge. So and then you could you do the next thing, right? So uh I'd rather do that than okay, we built this fancy system with all this stuff with all these layers and like three levels of integrations and all these APIs connect to each other and nobody uses it. So I mean like the spreadsheet guy is actually ahead, right?
>> The spreadsheet guy is actually ahead, right? So, um, yeah.
>> So, so let's let's talk about this evolve piece with our team for a second because if I install a process, get them to use it. How do I make sure I still get a good feedback loop for us to improve on this? Not again, not just based on my opinion and also not like get into a place where it's just group think and we got a bit of everyone's opinion constantly trying to like change this thing to where it's like a monster of everyone's ideas. How do we just properly bring in innovation and and evolve an existing process in a healthy way?
Yeah, cadence is always important. Cadence is always important for keeping your processes up to date and for also keeping well for keeping actually the enforcement of the process for also for also that keeping your process up to date. So, uh I would say the cadence. So, you could um I think any good process has cadence built in already. So, I give the example of the sales, you know, we want to meet constantly to be able to discuss discuss jobs, right? Like it could look differently. That's just an example I gave. Maybe you're meeting one-on-one with people. if that's the cadence like I'm meeting oneonone one with each trip whatever it is there's some sort of cadence though that's a backs stop um and that by the way that's that's actually another way to make sure that people actually using the tool because if if let's say you have a key you have your cadence you have your regular sales meeting and your regular sales meeting is that you will pull up the CRM and you're going to be like okay let me go through each salesperson and let me see what you have in there um even the people who aren't using it eventually they're going to be forced to use it because they're going to like they're going to be showing up to these meetings looking bad like right like oh oh my god I have nothing in there shoot I gota I got to make sure I do it like you know uh and then eventually they're going to just do it right but if you don't do that that might not happen so um so yeah I mean I think that now you could have you could almost have like a separate cadence and again you got to let it run its course too like you know like you don't know the process and then like a two weeks later be like unless you have to if you have to that's fine but like two weeks later be like all right like let's just change everything now like I mean no like you don't really do that either, right? Right. So, you give yourself like maybe monthly, monthly or every two months like check in maybe with yourself, maybe with the team, maybe you kind of like ask and like have these back stops and be like, "Okay, is there anything we need to tweak? Anything we need to improve?" Maybe on whatever meeting you're doing, the sales meeting like, "Hey guys, like we've picked up a lot more clients lately." So, we've gotten a little bit bigger. Do you guys think we should change? Anything? Anything? Anybody seeing anything? Yeah, you know, I'm noticing that like it sending quotes in two days like it's too hard now, right? because we have so many quotes done for example like right so um yeah building in a cadence basically.
>> I'll say this too especially with software if you put that much work into something and you launch it to the team and they do actually start to use it I've seen this where like everyone's afraid to go into the stuff that's not not really working because it's like well we put a lot of work into building this out so we have to use it now is there ever scenarios where you just realize like you know what we're boring a little bit of our hole in the wrong direction and we actually need to change dire trajectory because it's it's hard often when like the feedback from everybody's super subjective and I don't have data to measure of like are we actually improving like did did all this work actually make a difference for us and how do you determine that how often like maybe from your experience of doing this with your clients but how often do you realize hey we actually have to take the bold move and like move in a different direction because we built it but it what is not actually serving us or does that not happen often I don't know when you do this right.
>> Yeah, I mean it can happen obviously like right I mean Also things can like change like you know you look at the world now things change on a dime right like it's like okay like you know maybe uh maybe one day you thought investing in this thing was great and then the next day it's not and vice versa right so you need to be able to like adapt um but the um uh yeah I mean as far as like knowing if it's working or not I mean honestly like I think being as close to you it's called the ground as possible uh will help make that like kind of more clear. I mean, the first question usually is like, well, are people using it? Like, if we're talking about sales people, like, are they using the tool?
>> Okay, they're not. So, okay, they're not. So, now let's how are we going to use it? Guys, you really got to use it. Like, guys, if it's not in when we do our forecast or whatever, if it's not in the the tool, you're not going to get credit for it or whatever. Like, right, the different orgs have different ways of doing it, right? But like, you got credit for it or like, you know, I'm not going to be able to forecast. I'm not going to be able to put it on, you know, a deal that you claimed or whatever, right? You some incentive like you really need to make sure you're using it. Once people are using it, then it's like we get to the next point. Now, you can't you can't kind of go and like be like, "Okay, nobody even tried to use it. Therefore, let's go in the other direction." I mean, that doesn't that doesn't really that you kind of did you did not let it run its course right now. Now, maybe people did try to use it and they actually did use it and they're like like look like it's just, you know, with for some actual technical reason it doesn't make sense. then then that's something to be entertained, right? But um a lot of times again because people don't have that cadence because people don't have that support system behind it, they're not even at they may not even be at the point where they're using it properly or using it at all. Um and that is not really where you want to be making a decision like let's move in the other direction. Uh because presumably if you had the let's just call it for lack of better word the political will to embark on this process of making whatever process it was to begin with then you should logically have the political will to enforce it being used um till you can see it through right and if you don't then just don't do it like right so don't and sometimes you have this dichotomy where it's like okay like especially working with a client and it's like you get to a point and it's like you kind of like trying to tell them like listen it's on you now to essentially like either you don't want to use the for force but like mandate for your team to use this I cannot mandate it for you you know like it's not I could tell you what you need to do and we can help you run these meetings or whatever but you have to it has to come from you you have to tell the team I am requiring you guys to use this or me the company or whatever this is what we're going to be music and you know it's not zero where sometimes people like almost like don't want to do that. It's like, wait, so why did you install this whole thing to begin with if you didn't have the will to do that? Like, right. So, that's a little bit of a contradiction.
>> I just wrote something down while you were talking, but it's like almost like a hierarchy where I'm like, are they even using it? Which is you just said? Then I'm like, do they objectively actually like like it or is it actually do they feel like it's helping them? Right? And the final thing is, did it actually improve the KPI?
>> Do you know what I mean by that? So, it's just kind of like let's let's first use it. >> Then we can actually just hear from the ground like do they feel like it's helping them? Doesn't mean it is, but let's actually do they feel like it is and then finally I'll be like did the KPI actually go up or down? Did the number actually >> and those last two can go in contradiction the other way too because it could be like I feel like this is a lot of work and then it's like well guys >> but the KPI looks great.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So, is it uh so uh Yeah. And and that's that those that's actually three really good things to to kind of take together because if our KPIs are up and they feel like it's it's not good and it's like no but it's up like look let me show you whatever like you know and then you kind of get them excited. If if they feel like it's not helping and the KPIs are down then maybe they have a point right like so it's yeah.
>> But they have to have used it to have an opinion.
>> Yeah. Yeah. I Yes. For I think that that's like like if somebody's like you know if if it's like I'm a sales leader and like I put it in I would tell like Don't complaining about it. Have you used it? I I don't see. Let me open it up. >> Dude, you have like one thing in. You haven't used it. Don't come and complain about it when you haven't even used it. Like, use it first and then let me know.
>> Yeah. Which is which is the big hurdle actually. I think a lot of this like we we've talked a lot about the prep work to get to tailor and build out a really good process that we can be more confident. It can give us a higher, you know, percentage of success. But I think through all of this, like you said earlier, like the human or people element is the the big thing that can make or break anything you put into your organization, whether it's a new CRM system, project management software, sales process, or something more benign and small within the company. It's like, are the people engaged in this entire thing?
>> Absolutely. Absolutely.
>> Any any other advice for people just listening right now that have made it to this far into the podcast that are thinking like of putting some new stuff, new software, AI, >> social, just start with something, right? I know that a lot of times people are like, "Oh, like I have to do all this stuff." Just start with one thing like pick something, start with it. Could be simple, could be small. Don't you don't have to feel like you need to overengineer it. Sometimes you do because the problem is that big, but other times it's like something simple can just actually make an improvement, right? Um uh so I would say like just pick something, start with something um and uh and then see where that goes.
>> Cool. I wrote just start and kiss. Keep it simple, stupid.
>> Yeah. Yeah. and specific kicks.
>> Keep it simple, stupid, and specific.
>> Good. Uh Mustafa, if people want to reach out to you if they want to uh get in touch with you, how would they how would they do that?
>> Yeah. Um just in the name of keeping it simple stupid, just reach out to uh hello, it's just the word hello pushanalytics.com and just put the name of the podcast and my name in the in the title and uh, you know, we'll that'll get to me and we'll we'll can book something.
>> Sounds good, man. Okay, thanks for coming on. Awesome. Thank you.
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