Transcription
So, in a relationship setting, if someone takes sex off the table, does that indeed constitute an infidelity? Uh, Mimosa?
Uh, no. I'm actually on my way to a meeting.
Yeah. No, I didn't I don't I don't want one either. Um, I got us chocolate chip pancakes for the table like we used to.
Um, cool. I I don't have a lot of time, so
Oh, okay. No, then I'll just get right to it. I'm done. I'm I'm I'm finally done.
What What What are you done with?
With our time apart? I know it's been really difficult. It's been difficult on both of us, but I'm finally ready for us to be together, and I'll never have to wonder about anything else.
I'm seeing someone now.
That is Congratulations. Um so then, so Josh, you want to just like tell me when you're done then? Oh, Alice.
Well, like we can we'll just wait till you're done.
Shit's different. I'm not I'm not sure I want the same things anymore.
You mean like me?
I didn't need an experiment to know that I loved you. And I'm not an idiot. You're You're I guess done with whatever you've been doing with whoever you've been doing and you think come running back to me? No thanks. I'll pass.
It's a really interesting question, isn't it? Because does it It's not an infidelity, is it? It's a betrayal of the relationship contract of what the expectations is of what you both thought you were going to be getting and somebody else has just said, "I'm not going to do that anymore. I'm not going to have sex with you anymore." So, when you will say the word infidelity, we always think of with someone else. But actually, it's the betrayal of letting go of that person that wants to be wanted.
I'm going to go with our clip that we've talked about because I think watching that, it's brought up so many different context for me within a relationship.
And when I first saw it that it was real cringy because there was an expectation that somebody can switch off from somebody for however long they think they need to. Let's go there. um
And then get picked up again after.
Yeah. And what's so interesting about that for me is I have couples who it's if you've needed sabbatical where you're going for self-development and you're saying to your partner the contract is I'm not going off with anyone else but I'm going to see I need some space mental you know like health issues and all that sort of stuff.
Yeah. Then that's different because you will then do a contract verbally or or written saying this is exclusive. We're not going to go off with other people. But this clip is such when she comes back in her expectation of him to come back on board with the relationship while she said to him I need space and her brain I guess is saying it's okay to do that. You can wait while I go and find me. When I found me and I'm done I'm going to come back and you'll be ready. How do we Why do we think as humans we can put people on hold and think they'll still be there when we come back?
I find it fascinating.
Well, me too because I think the thing that was the emotional tug for me and again I try and look at things from both um angles there was a genuine hurt, genuine up upset and you could almost feel that sense of I'm grappling at anything. It's like well I'll just wait until you're done.
As if it's okay.
Yeah. Yeah. And what was the words he actually said? Oh, there was something really significant that he mentioned, wasn't there?
Oh, uh, was it along the lines of, uh, I'm, uh, I know what's happened here. You've gone and done whatever you've done with whoever you were doing it with, and now you want to come back to me. Well, I'm sorry, but that's not the case.
Yeah. I've met someone else.
Yeah.
But that's such a shock that she thought that he would wait for her. Oh, you're talking about the bit when he says, "I didn't need uh I didn't need an experiment to know that I loved you."
Yeah. Oh, God, that is so powerful. I didn't need to go off and do what you've done to know that I wanted to be with you and I love you. She said, "I'm not sure." Which is fine if you're not sure, but don't go off and do other things with other people. Have some space. You've got to remember that when people pull away, so I have couples sometimes who cancel their marriage. they're just about to get married and they cancel it. These are resentments that are there for a long time if we don't talk about it. So if he if he'd gone back to her, he would have wanted to know why did you abandon me? That might be his template abandonment. And now he's feeling right, okay, why did that happen for us? What was going on? He's got no like plan or picture. That was her decision. And we don't really know the contract, do we?
No. And that, but seeing that and her being so shocked, I'm shocked that she she's so shocked.
Because
That's a good way of putting it.
Why is it she thought that he would sit and wait when it wasn't known who she was going with, what she was doing, and how she was doing it?
Do you know I this probably resonates for me more than perhaps others. I don't know. But I keep thinking about the lack of empathy and the the empathy being I'm going to I absolutely she needs to go and secure her mind, her head, and her heart and be at one with whatever she's going through.
So, no problem with that. But don't drag somebody else into it that you're going to effectively drop at the at a whim or a drop of the hat. Yeah. Uh and think it's okay to then be or it is a form of disrespect to come back and say
Um, okay, where do we pick up?
Without any regard to what they might have experienced again the lack of empathy.
Yeah, that is true. But also, if you notice her lack of awareness of how he was acting when he first come in samosas I'm not drinking I'm going to a meeting I've got our favorite meal coming for the end pancakes you know and there is no awareness of her going how hurt you are that I then decided not to be in the relationship with you for a while. Wh why I sorted my stuff out? And you're right. We're allowed to I call it sabbatical. Go away, find ourselves without it's an agreement that we do that not an abandonment. That's the difference for me.
So whilst we're in that respectful space, we I guess the other thing to do is say you have actually outlined it. I am going through a tough time.
Yeah.
I'm not in a good place. I need to go and figure stuff out. Yeah, I'm not asking you to stay, but would you consider have an agreement with us that it's uh it's strictly between yourself and I? There's going to be no others. I need three months.
Would you would you go along with that?
Yeah. Yeah. And we're going back to what we always say, you're an I first before you're a we. So, there's something you need to sort out for yourself while still being a contract with that other person if you want to be together.
Yeah.
Okay. We support each other. You know, in the tough times, it's when you know you've got the partner that you should have. We can't always have the the the difficult time, you know, the the easy times. It's when we have the difficult times. And that's why we still have to support each other in the difficult times.
So, not dropping each other or someone at in a whim.
But that's what he felt like. I was dropped. You explored. You've come back. Your expectation is that I'm ready now to take you back. I've moved on. And she's shocked that he's moved on. What did she say to him? Wait around. Wait around for me. I don't know what I'm going to be doing, but just can you wait? I don't think she even said that. Do you remember I mentioned to you it reminds me of friends. We're on a break.
Oh, the the when he faithful the next day with somebody in the lingerette and he said, "We were on a break, so I want with you." It was less than one day that he went and had sex with someone else cuz he was feeling sorry for himself that she'd broken up with him.
Yeah. Bad decision for self soothing that one.
Yeah. And even right the way through, friends, it was the strap line was we're on a break.
Yeah.
Okay. So, the definition of what a break is.
She was saying, I can't cope with where we are. I need I need to have some space. Not for you to go off and do what you want to do with other people, but support me in that space. If we can do that with our couples, then it gives them the opportunity. You're allowed to work out stuff. You know, we are committing to somebody through all of the things that they are. What we're trying to do is actually think about, do I want this? Is this what I want? And because we take everything personally, more so than we've ever done, it's not an indictment on who you are as a person. They're sorting their stuff out.
So, whilst we define we're on a break, yeah, and having that mutual respect for the person that you might not be getting on with, but let's be honest, it all boils down to having a quality conversation. It also then reminds me of of potentially what may have happened in that scene is how do we define an infidelity?
Now, the reason why I say that is because we we might cover some of those sort of micro infidelities. You use the partner that you lovely that didn't need an experiment to see how the relationship was going to pan out for her to go and be with somebody else was the line that is too much for him to bear.
Yeah, she crossed a line.
Yeah.
Um, I guess the first line she crossed was not saying this is exclusive. I'm just going to go and have some time out. She come back and then he actually said to her, didn't he, what you've been doing or who you've been doing it with. She didn't say I haven't been unfaithful. So there was something going on.
And she though, did she? She had the look.
No. So it's I found that really painful watching because I think that happens a lot.
I think there's something about
I'm glad you brought you brought this up cuz I think this happens more.
Yeah. Would you consider that it is too easy with all the temptations in the internet in this day and age to be fooled, torn, and taken away? Your eye comes off the ball.
Yeah.
Uh and it just seems Well, the grass is greener, right?
Well, I don't think the grass is greener most of the time. I think it's just more to mow because you're trying to have the history.
More to mow. You got the history of what you know and then you got the newness of the things that you're experimenting with and finding and actually you're jeopardizing all that you've built for something you actually have no idea whether it will work or not.
So chasing a liance almost as opposed to um fostering the relationship that you've got.
Yeah. And sometimes people go off because there's too much responsibility over here and there's none over here. There's so many reasons why people do the infidelity and it's so painful.
It's just so painful. I was spoken to somebody last night actually and it isn't like pulling the rug. It's like an explosion in your brain, in your body.
Somebody hasn't just gone like that and pulled the rug from under you. It's bigger than that. Your whole history together has now been questioned.
Yeah.
And his questioning was very polite really. He was like, where you've been and what you've done, I've moved on. And I think his profound boundary exercised in those what one and a half minutes. Oh, got a bicycle.
Yeah, that that boundary exercised in the very short period of time that they uh they spoke, I think was I say poetic, but it's we all need that gumption. We all need that confidence to be able to deliver a boundary in the way that he did it. And I thought it was quite good. But did you not feel that he was focused?
Yes.
I'm going to work. Can't have a drink. And he was different from the getgo.
Yeah. And he was differentiated. I now know what I want and I now know what I've got.
Yeah. Yeah.
So, we can only go by the bit that we show. And I'm sure when they left each other,
Yeah.
he I'm guessing that he was really hurt and she was really excited about what she was going to explore. So, again, we've got disalignment. Well, look at the look at the the nature of how she actually degraded herself unknowingly probably because she was panicking maybe,
but she also says, "Oh, you know, I'll just wait until you're done then."
Yeah. It was an expectation and an assumption um that her coming back everything would be all right. His favorite drink, his favorite food, our favorite food. She was expecting to be greeted with open arms and he was like flat. There was nothing there. But because of our excitement or anxiety, she she couldn't until she said, "You mean me?"
Yeah.
I don't want this anymore. And she said, "You mean me?"
He went, "Yeah."
Going back to this concept of the, you know, what constitutes an infidelity. And we use that scene because it it amplifies an example, not strictly speaking, but an example of his experience. I don't want to be with you now. You've done what you've done with other people, and I found someone. So, I'm asserting my boundary.
We talked about uh social media. Are you happy to sort of share with your partner what you've been looking at and liking as well? Who you've been chatting to? Yeah.
There's another one which I found fascinating that we have spoken about before, but we talk about financial infidelity.
Yeah, absolutely.
Describe that to me.
Um, I guess it's lying about money, lying about debt. Um,
Gambling.
Gambling. Yeah. Um, pretending something cost more than it did or less than it did usually.
Oh [ __ ] I'm I've done that.
How many cameras can I buy, Elliot? Oh, no. This one was a given to me.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Um, but it's not about the money is it root the money is coming from your family of origin whatever that was for you right and the shame that that can bring in not sharing it comes from our past so maybe mom and dad were a bit frugal and less spendy and then you got another parent who's quite frivolous and spends a lot there will be something that comes from our um process there's a lovely thing in coaching called dear money I just want to talk to you about how you've treated me all these years and there's a lovely the process that couples can or individuals can go through talking about talking to money and how it's let you down or how you feel like it's treated you.
The relationship we have with it.
Exactly. Yeah. And couples they will think about money differently. Somebody will spend spend spend and don't tell and the other person will be going let's save save for a rainy day. There'll be two different concepts going on which you know does work but it's about trust in it. It's about openness and transparency and all that. So, but when we're talking about infidelity, I always say to you, don't I being honest is one person who's not been um had an infidelity is saying to other person, what happened when? What did you do? What time was that? Was it my birthday? They've got to pull it out like teeth. What I want is open transparency. Being able to say, tell me the story of the infidelity from your point of view. So, I slept with this person while you were away with the kids in Devon and I went to this hotel or I went to our favorite restaurant or we're telling a story of it. I don't want the person who's trying to gain the repair to have to pull every single detail out of the other person. And I get it. They're in shame and they're really struggling themselves, but they have to do the repair. And what I'm noticing in my therapy room is there's not a enough repair going on. So the person who's sitting in that place of I don't still know what happened. Um I've got no concept of why this happened are fearful of their future with this person because they've got I don't mean there's a guarantee but they're saying if we know why it happened then there'll be an opportunity for us to make sure we support each other when we're feeling frustrated, lonely, neglected, um distant. We can talk to each other about it.
Why do you think that's happening? Why going through that process of repair and not being completely transparent? What are the inhibitors? When you think of limrance, it is a crazy time and that person's been having fun and they've got to share that concept with their partner. They can't say that it was horrible. They hate themselves for the lying and the deceit, but they don't hate themselves for the the betrayal because they were having fun. So actually then to say the story to the partner who's really hurting that we went here, we went there, we did this, we did that. And a lot of it is really like we have a muscle memory that we do the same thing with our partner that we do with our infidelity partner. We go to the same places so that those places can never be inhabited by the couple again. So, I'm not quite sure why that happens. Why do we take the the people to the pe places that we'd loved like a hotel, like a spa day, whatever it might be. We do the same pattern as though we're with the same person and we probably are choosing the same person again because we've not done enough work on ourselves to not.
What kind of infidelities do you see that are just irreparable?
Oh, multiple. When it's one person, there's almost like I can deal with that one person. I'm really struggling with the lies and the deceit. If there's that one person and then lots of sexual streaming and dating and all sorts of stuff when there's multiple things, people are really struggling.
That sounds like an ultimate betrayal. Just almost the person that you're with has become unrecognizable.
Yeah.
And then irreparable because it's just too much to fathom.
Yeah. And what I'm noticing is they want to say that they are a sex addict or compulsivity.
What do you mean? They want to say they're a sex addict.
Yeah. Because they don't want to believe that their partner has done so mold. So they say the reason why
There must be a reason for it.
You're doing this. It's not because of our relationship. It's maybe that you've got a sex addiction of some sort.
Um, a compulsivity that's that you can't stop doing it. And they have stopped doing it because now they've been found out. So if it was an addict, I don't like that word, compulsivity process, they would start up again. They go dormant while the the shames around and then they would start up again. So I don't want people to be labeled with any sort of compulsivity.
Um, we that would need proper investigation and assessment for somebody to say that they are that.
Um, but that would be that would be a really good thing to say, wouldn't it? As in this is why they've done this and then you got
Don't show them on the camera. Don't show them on the camera. Don't show them on the camera.
Yeah.
Do you want a quick cameo?
Shell's friends.
Oh, is it?
They've seen that. They've probably seen a couple of the videos.
Hello, Shel's friends.
Too late.
Uh, you were talking about the compulsivity and I think, you know, Yeah.
And I was I was wondering, you know, in in that respect, how convenient that might be when you do use a label. Um, it makes the situation that's unbearable, more palatable.
Yeah. Well, it's just like we've I've got to have a reason for this happening, you know? Is is it me? What have I done personalizing it? Is it something else? And usually it isn't about the partner. There's elements of it, but usually it's about the aliveness that you've been looking for, the unmet need in yourself that you've gone to recreate somewhere. And that's really important. And I don't want all couples to feel that it's their fault that that person's gone. They've got to be in um accountable for their behavior of what's happened. And I'm finding that it's really in therapy there's a bit of repair and then it's sort of not consistent and then it stops. Then the other person says, "You're not really being in connection with me at the moment." They go, "Well, I'm tired and I I I haven't got the energy to to keep doing." And we're not talking about big things. We're talking about how are you doing? Are you thinking of the affair? Are you coping? You know, really checking in with your partner. When I talk about repair, I'm not talking about big gestures cuz big gestures won't be believed anyway.
Well, no. Then it because it's a a guilt or shame driven as opposed to genuine need or um desire to fix and repair.
Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I was just thinking about the um micro infidelities like financial like um being disloyal, going out and talking about your partner in a certain way.
Well, I I like this topic. We've had this before.
And I think there is something quite profound to say, you know, just use my partner as an example. I don't talk to my friends or family about problems that we might be having because that is strictly between us.
Yeah. But it's interesting that we're talking about that as a micro infidelity. Yeah. Because we're betraying. It's the it's about the betrayal side of it, right?
Yeah. I think we need to be careful of what language we use when we're talking about our partner outside of our partner, that space that we inhabit.
Yeah.
Because, you know, the bias of others, the opinions of others,
infiltrating our own thoughts and
Yeah. Absolutely. You know, what you might share with somebody is not really what you're thinking is the result of that. But somebody might say, "Well, have you thought of this?" Or, "Why do you think you're putting up with that?" Or, "We don't need that. We don't need fixing."
Where's the colluding? That's so damaging.
We need we need to be careful of that. Um, I want it to be a team. I want it to be, you know, you've got my back and, you know, all that sort of thing. So, if that doesn't happen, then I would I would really question why you need to be validated by your friends. you know, why do you need that input by your friends?
There could be a self-esteem issue there or just having a strong identity or not.
Yeah. Yeah. But also, maybe I'm backtracking a bit. I'm not quite sure. But it's okay to go and ask a friend what you think about something. I'm thinking of doing this.
Yeah.
And that that's different to going my partner always, never.
I think you've nailed it. It's the I statement. Yeah.
I believe that I am experiencing this thing and I would like to speak to my partner about this spec and I want to make sure that I come across right. What do you think?
Yeah. Know that sounds like you've got it nailed.
Not he's an [ __ ] He did these things and Yeah.
Yeah. Absolutely. There's a different wording, isn't there? Um, to get advice or a bit of input and everything, but also not to put you down your your partner in a way that then could come back and bite you when the other person says, "Did you know your partner feels like this about you?" I like the concept of if um if I spoke about my partner this way or if they spoke about me that how would you feel about that if it was the other way around?
Yeah. Yeah.
I don't want you talking about me. Bingo.
Yeah. Yeah. No, absolutely. There is a difference.
But we are talking about a um a level of transparency and awareness so you can have that dialogue with the person you care about. And it also means sitting in those uncomfortable spaces having the conversation which isn't going to be enjoyable but that's the point.
Well, it's the only growth. It's the only way to grow with the uncomfortability. But also remember we're talking about infidelity. So a lot of people don't go outside the arena which is just them two.
Yeah.
Because telling other people means that there'll be a bias.
You know like Esther said kick him to the curb and all this sort of thing. So I think we need to be really really careful of saying can we share that with somebody that's really trusted. Um, so I've had situations where somebody's been in um had an affair but they haven't told their group of couple friends because they know that one of them had an affair ages ago and then one of them was cheated on ages ago. So they've got a bias. they've got some sort of gender that they would say, "I left the other person." So, they don't tell their couple friends. They don't tell their parents cuz they don't want them to look bad on the other person. So, I think it's choosing somebody that you can still confide in, but they're not trying to fix it or give you opinions.
Just got a fly. Sorry, just breathed in a fly. That's right.
Um, it's interesting because I'm just thinking that's awful, wasn't it?
Just one. where you're going on a
Dirty great big fly went down my throat.
I guess the the the flip side to that is uh individuals that have gone a absolutely apoplelectic about the infidelity they found out, tell their friends, post it on Facebook, have an absolute rage. The damage that does not just to the relationship you got with your partner, but the potential road to recovery has just had an extra couple of roadblocks put in the way.
Yeah. Uh roadblocks put in the way.
Yeah, it's really how do you come back from that?
Well, you've got everybody's opinion coming in on it and that's why I talk about the arena. Who have you told when they come in for the assessment? Who have you told so far? And let's let's contract who we're we're going to not tell um so that we can actually keep it between. You can't repair when everybody's how's how's it going? They're telling you to talk about it and you might not be in that place to be able to Oh dear. I'm trying my best to try and ignore it, but I can feel it wriggling. Oh my god, that was a huge fly. Are you all right? Yeah, I think it's out now. For anyone, Should we keep that in? I just said breathed in the biggest fly known to man. It might have been a bird actually or a spider.
Are you okay?
Yeah, I'm fine.
Sorry about this everyone. It'll come back to normal in a minute.
Well, at least they know that we're out in the wilderness and it's real.
Exactly. Yeah.
This isn't a studio shot, is it?
So, speaking of which,
yeah,
we're talking about infidelities. We're talking about what constitutes an constitute an infidelity.
What do you think we should cover on the studio deep dive for uh a key takeaway for our audience? What would you think will be useful for them to hear?
It's a good question, isn't it?
This is a really good question. Yeah. And um
I've got an idea.
Should we hear your idea?
Then I'll copy your idea. My idea is about not just uh what constitutes um what an infidelity is, but more along the lines of how do we recognize that when we might be doing it and about the transparency in the conversations that we can be having with our partners so we can either circumvent it or from happening to begin with.
Recognizing what an infidelity could be.
Yes. I love that. Um, what what's brought up for me, and this might not be anything to do with what we're talking about, but I know it is, which Yeah. I found these two masks the other day in my house,
right?
Okay. And without the mask on, I was saying to myself, it's all right. It was only a cup of tea. Yeah. Yeah, I did flirt a little bit.
I see.
I did flirt a little bit.
Making excuses.
Yeah. Um, but I haven't done anything. And it was just a cup of tea and then I put the mask on and went I deserve this.
Oh, I see.
Yeah, it was really interesting. Um, thank you. How'd that come about? It was like what what happens to us when we are in that place of starting that infidelity or that relationship outside of our relationship. And what excuses or um evidence do we give oursel that actually it's okay to do? Because don't forget once we've done the infidelity we're we've crossed the line. We're going back home.
So, you're talking about what's the internal dialogue we use to validate the things that we inherently know are not true, right, or honest.
Yeah. I don't know. I just found these two masks and I put one on and the one I had the mask on was the one like I des, you know, I work really hard and I'm the provider and I do everything. Yeah. Why shouldn't I go and do that? Why shouldn't I have a bit of fun? Then the mask comes off and it was very much like um nothing really happened. It's okay that we've met five times. Yes, I haven't told my wife I get it, but nothing's happen. You do you know what I mean? There there's this there's this split part of us.
Yeah.
That validates doing what we're doing otherwise we wouldn't be able to do it.
And I think that valid that that internal dialogue where be where oh almost a petulence and
A child.
Yeah. The the alter ego comes in.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I've heard that from more men than I have women.
Yeah.
I felt entitled. I'm I'm I'm not appreciated at home. I do everything and that. But they're not looking at their partner who's saying, "I've got the mental load. I'm doing everything." But they didn't go off and do anything.
Yeah.
So, we've got two people saying the same thing, but one person steps outside.
Navigating people. Hello.
Hello.
Hi. So on the deep dive then I think it might be good to do another knowledge article for our website that covers what those micro infidelities look like. We do a little bit of a quiz um and then talk about them in more detail and actually why we do it.
Yeah.
What constitutes an infidelity, how it happens and actually how we trick ourselves into into that narrative.
Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. And why we lie. Uh-huh.
Why? Why do we feel like uh, you know, I always say to people, well, white lie is just a lie. There's no color to it. It's just a lie. And we some people, and I've done it in the past myself, you know, I've only had two ice creams when I've had four or you know, why do we do that to ourselves?
Yeah.
And that but when we're talking about infidelity, we're talking about a big rupture within the relationship. And and what's so interesting about it is when you're first asked about the infidelity, you lie. Because being found out is the scariest place to be. I'm just going to lose everything. And you might not, but it feels like you're going to just about lose everything. So the historical relationship for what you've had over here, if it's something that's been
Just about to be decimated.
It is. But this one over here wasn't what you really wanted. Anyway, I get lots of couples, individuals saying to me, I was doing that, but it's not what I wanted. But I don't know how to get out of it. So there was I feel like the person they were with thought there was more to it than just sex. There would be more um I don't know devotion and leaving their wife and coming across. Sometimes it isn't that.
Yeah.
And that's really upsetting, isn't it? You're playing with somebody else's feelings when you in a way knew that you weren't going to actually leave all the things that you've built up here.
I it kind of I drifted on to another concept about, you know, what constitutes an infidelity. When you're talking about, you know, the the excitement of just sex or having an intimate uh feeling with someone or being caught up in the limrance, then you've got the whole uh polyamory uh uh conversation and and that's more about really deep intimate loving relationships with multiple people. That's a whole new conversation in itself, right?
Yeah. Well, sometimes infidelity in the first place starts the other person saying, "Well, if you've now done that, let's open up our relationship." And that causes big problems because the person who's had the infidelity doesn't want to.
No.
And the person who's going, "Well, actually, I want to go and explore now. So, let's actually open up the that's not polyamory. That's two people opening up the relationship." But yeah, polyamory relationships have got infidelity inside of them. Anyway, I've had um I've had many uh a client that have gone down the polyory route and I've as of yet I have I still need to see evidence that it actually works. It seems to work for one person.
Yeah. Well, I guess for me it's are you doing what you want to do or are you doing what you think they want you to do so you can stay in the relationship? And I've seen that. I've I've done open relationships and I can see one person's like really excited and the prospect of newness and the other person sitting there and they're not as excited or anything and my question to them is do you really want to do this?
Yeah.
And they go I want to do it for them or I don't want to lose them so I'm doing it for them. That's almost sitting with the concept of infidelity. Uh but going going through the the motion of being okay because you just don't want that person to leave or don't want to be seen as uh
Yeah. But the the the rupture in your heart knowing that a person's doing something with somebody else that you've agreed to but you can't stand it is is just
Yeah. I would probably say to the other person, can you not see this is going to hurt them too much?
So it's Isn't it better to not be with each other and do what you want to do? than hurt somebody that you've loved for 20 years. And why have we got huge rates of divorce? Why have we got huge rates of people saying, you know, I'm this age. I want to go and explore and do more stuff. And and that's including sex. I want to practice and be with other people and everything.
Putting effort into a relationship seems to be one of the common denominators that is diminishing. There's so much there's so much choice and I don't just mean uh things people and potential other relationships but it's the the grass is greener on the other side seems to be a narrative that is just prominent no one wants to put the or I'm certainly seeing that uh less amount of people want to put in the effort.
But that's what it is, you know, I've heard on the internet and everything, you know, a relationship if you're in love shouldn't be an effort. Of course it should. Of course it should. You're actually you're considering the other person.
I always say to them, if you're not going to consider each other, be single.
Yeah. Choose.
Choose. Choose your choices. Choose to be in love and choose to do the difficult thing.
Yeah. You your brain needs to be in contact with that other person. When you want to do an eye stuff, that's fine too. But when you are in contact as a we, you have to consider the other. You have to because that's what you're choosing to do. And that's where the difficult effort side of things um constitutes itself because you get the reward from it. But it's not meant to be easy.
No. But that takes us back to when we don't make any effort. We then go into a sexless relationship. There's no conversation about it and somebody's left in false celibacy and they are resenting every minute and every hour of their day.
Yeah. We've got a lot to cover in the studio.
We have, haven't we?
All right. On that note, then we'll make our next episode based on what constitutes an infidelity. If someone takes sex off the table, does that indeed constitute an infidelity? Might drop moment. And we'll cover that in a bit more detail.
Yeah, absolutely. And also, I want to mention when somebody opts out for a while, why they think the other person should wait around. I think that's really important as well. All right.
Can I just say that dog's really cute?
Oh my god, that dog's so cute. Hello, baby. Hello.
Right, until next time.
Yeah, we'll see you then.