Transcription
The first fruits that are twisted are just collecting revenue. It's actually a church like a business. Our text says a sheaf of wheat. Why is it now 1 month's salary? I see one of them, this is like a shaman. Is this a pastor or a shaman? Another one, is this a motivator or a pastor? Using verses too. Occasionally use the Bible. Okay. Interpreted differently according to the context in the Bible. When I read the Bible myself without looking at any books, I found many mistakes. The past perception was that the Jordan River parted like the Sea of Galilee during Joshua's entry. Yes. But it didn't part. Many will be offended if I speak later. It is said that Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God. Didn't read the Bible, read books that hardened Pharaoh's heart himself. There are many laws in the Torah. Why do you only implement tithes and first fruits? Your motive is revealed. What does Pak Winyo himself want, the early church? Clearly the Early Church. What is the Early Church? [Music] Welcome to Church 360. A channel that talks about the church. a place of community where people want to experience meeting God, experience transformation, experience a life journey filled with God's presence. But unfortunately, that place or community today, as you see in reality on the ground, has many weaknesses, many shortcomings, many anxieties arising among young people or even perhaps you who are leaders in the church. And sometimes we don't know how to discuss it or how to define it. That's why Church 360 is here, a channel I dedicate to discussing the church as its name suggests, 360 degrees. We will discuss the church from various angles. And one of the churches or one of the unique things or aspects in the church that needs to be discussed is how the church returns to its essence. Before me, friends, today there is a servant of God whose journey I find interesting to observe. And if you are curious and want to stalk him, you will find that he is someone who shepherds a church called the early church. It sounds strange, yes, it sounds strange but interesting. Let's welcome pastor or pastor Wigo Tanto together. Welcome. Oh, I hope this is not too formal, Pastor, I hope we can be comfortable and relaxed. Yes, Pastor Wigo, perhaps some of you already know who Pastor Wigo is, but I'm sure some don't know enough. Perhaps Pastor can tell us a little about what people want to know about Pastor Wigo. Well, actually, I never dreamed of becoming a pastor when I was little. Yes. But when I was 3 years old, my mother took me to church and dedicated me to the church. Okay. Where are you from? I'm from Nganjuk. Nganjuk. Born in East Java. Still carrying the accent. Still feeling it, right? Still feeling the accent. It hasn't disappeared. Okay, continue. Okay. Well, after that, I went to church diligently since childhood, even though my parents were not yet Christians. Not yet Christians but brought to church. Well, I don't understand that until today. Yes. Okay. Well, after that, I never dreamed of becoming a pastor. Yes. But I believe in God and I always kept it in my heart until I went to college. After college, I thought knowledge alone was not enough. I have to be close to God. Well, that's when I looked left and right 360 degrees. Wow, cool. Ready. There's church A, the pastor is like this, like this. Why don't I fit in? Where is that? In Jakarta? Already. Already in Jakarta. Already. And that means there are many church choices. Many. Many. Sorry. This is not meant to offend anyone. I see one of them, this is like a shaman. Is this a pastor or a shaman? Yes. Another one, is this a motivator or a pastor? Hmm. So it turns out there are many. Many. Okay. Then this one keeps talking about money and so on. So I didn't find anything at that time. But I learned on my own. Bible. Yes. Yes. Yes. At that time. Sorry. Excuse me. Pak Wigo at that time was already working, doing business or working? Already. Work. Yes. Professional, then. Already professional and that means you have gone through a certain journey, so to speak, to be able to discern critically. At that time, not yet, I just graduated and started working, I started looking left and right but didn't find it. But actually, those realizations are what I want to know today, many Christians are just going along with my words. What do you mean? They just go along like this. Yes, I'm Christian. Oh, go to church. But they are not critical enough in listening to the direction of the teachings. Oh, I understand what you mean. Well, most of them are like that, and even if it's not meant to be, some of them may have good education but they are very passive in terms of spiritual matters. What do you think, Pak Wigyo? How can you be so critical? At that time, even though I hadn't studied theology, I was asked to preach. Oh, yes. In a church. Okay. Alright, alright, alright, alright, alright, alright. So I always gave in-depth Bible studies and so on. Oh, okay. Even though I hadn't studied at that time, today I checked the materials, they are this much. Fortunately, nothing was wrong. Oh, thank God. If I made a mistake, I would have sinned greatly. Oh, I see. So, at the time, you were already teaching. Well, well, well, well, well. But that's probably what helped Pak Wig to have that critical thinking. Yes, that's right. Well. Then theology school, one day someone showed me, "This church is the right one." Okay, alright, I'll visit. Yes. I see, it's good. Hmm. Well, after all that, I thought, "Okay, this one suits me." Well, I joined there. Oh, I see. I joined there and then before that, Pak Winyu was not a full-timer and so on. I was just a volunteer once a week. Just a volunteer. Well, then I joined the church that I considered right. Well, from there I immediately became the youth leader and so on, immediately active, from not being active to being active. Was this the church before GM? The early church? Yes, that's right. Oh, okay. Okay. At that time, it was called Line, after that it became a church. Well, now GMS. I know that well. Okay. Not just know, don't know. I know it very well. But I've heard and seen it. Oh, yes. Yes. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So after that, theology school? Theology school was after that. In this church. Only in this church did I go to theology school. Yes. I studied at STT Betattle Indonesia. STT Betattle. Petamburan. Petamburan. Okay, okay, okay. Pak Winyo has been graduated from theology school for a long time then. Oh, if you say graduated, it hasn't been long, but I don't remember. Master's was in 2000 what? 2013 or 2014? Oh. Then PhD in 2000 18 or 2019, that's quite a while. I see, I see. Okay, Pak Winyo, perhaps friends already know. Okay, roughly Pak Winyo comes from a professional background who never really thought of becoming a pastor, but then came because he understood and saw that something was wrong with the teachings. Okay, Pak Winyo, can you elaborate a little on what made Pak Winyo say earlier about this being motivation? Isn't that what many people are looking for, Pak Winyo? Well, they come to church to be motivated, to come to church to get comfort when they were feeling down. Why is that, Pak Winyo? Why? Why does Pak Winyo seem to be on a different side from those who want that? Yes. Because I see that what I mean by motivation is not motivation based on the Bible, it's just general motivation. General motivation. General motivation. So he doesn't actually use the Bible. Yes, occasionally uses verses too. Occasionally uses Bible verses, but interprets them differently. Oh, interpreted differently. Not in accordance with the context in the Bible. Well, that's not right. Hmm. Until one day I even offered myself to God. God, use me. If I preach, I'll say whatever I want. Whether people like it or not, I'll say it. I promised God I would. Even though I didn't want to be a pastor at first, but because I couldn't find it, okay, fine. I see. Yes. Wow. Oh, okay. Then, in that journey, Pak Winyo, meaning in those journeys, eventually the early church, right? This is what I've actually wanted to discuss. Why did Pak Winyo then make this, I suspect, a form of idealism of what Pak Winyo thinks. Yes. About the church. Yes. Correct. Correct. Well, once again, I never dreamed of creating any church, whatever its name. Yes. But I was conditioned, and I believe God conditioned it. Yes. So it became the early church. At first, in the old church, I thought I could continue. But at some point, I thought it had deviated. Hmm. Well, if it deviates, I don't dare to follow. Well, I consider that the most important thing is deviation. In terms of Jesus Christ. Oh, okay. Well, then I left, and the early church GMM was born. Its philosophy, many people question its philosophy, is this an orthodox church or what? Oh, I see. Yes. Why is there a mention of Orthodox? My intention is that people ask me. Oh, okay. They ask if it's orthodox. No. I said the term "early" has a philosophy. Okay. People might think that the early church means the orthodox church. Yes, because in some journeys, the orthodox church claims to be the most connected to the early tradition. Yes, we respect that. Okay, continue. Well, "early" here is because I see everyone in the world is arguing, claiming to be the most correct, and so on and so forth. There are many interpretations of the Bible. Hmm. Ah, I was inspired by God to just be early. "Early" means not depending on subsequent interpretations. What is early? The biblical text. Okay. Well, I know many churches claim to use the biblical text. Hmm. But in fact, they don't. I can prove it. Even explicit biblical texts are not followed. Explicit, not interpretation. Hmm. Well, that's why it's "early." Well, its philosophy is in the logo. Okay. GMM. GMM has a decree. Yes. Well, "early" there, the first value is "early" is the fear of the Lord, which is the beginning of knowledge. Knowledge, yes, that's the beginning there. So back to Okay. Okay. Okay. Good, good. This is interesting. Interesting. I didn't expect that Proverbs would be used. Well, I thought, okay, okay, continue. Also, "early" is one point there. But "early," the second point is that what is meant by "early" is the early biblical text, not based on interpretation. So we go back to what was early, meaning in that era, what was that era like? Yes. In the era of the apostles, the biblical text was written. Well, that's the beginning there. Yes. Yes. Yes. So there is no connection with orthodox tradition or anything else, no. The beginning is when the Bible was written. Well, what does that mean? That's all. Well, well, well, Pak Winyo. Many people today associate their Christian identity with a denomination of Christianity. So, for example, you're Christian, what kind of Christian? Ah, like that. My Christianity is Catholic Christianity, or my Christianity is Orthodox Christianity, or my Christianity is Protestant Christianity, charismatic Christianity, Pentecostal. Yes, those are denominations. Yes, what does Pak Winyo want, the early church? Clearly. Early Christianity. Early Christianity. Okay. What is early Christianity? Early Christianity is the original before centuries of interpretation. Hmm. The understanding in that era. Well, of course, it's in accordance with the biblical text. It's impossible not to be. Uh, disclaimer, friends. So I was joking with Pak Winyo yesterday. I said, "Pak Wino, Pak Winyo, what's the dress code?" Well, I mean, it's good to have a dress code to adjust. I said, "Casual, Pak Winyo, or do you want the dress of the early church, early Christians?" Uh, I don't know what that would be, a simple robe, or a Pharisee's robe? There are a few Pharisees among the church members. A few, a few. Yes. So anyway, meaning, if so, people will ask Pak Winyo again, "What denomination is it, Pak?" Well, if I'm asked about the denomination, I'm also confused. So if you want to say Protestant, it's okay to say charismatic, there are also charismatic elements. That's why people will see the uniqueness of the early church. Hmm. Because, excuse me, there are churches that don't really believe in miracles. Hmm. Hmm. But I have experienced miracles too. Hmm. Excuse me, there are churches that don't really use reason. Hmm. But I use reason too. Hmm. Because I believe everything is in the Bible. Hmm. He. Because God is complete. 360. Good. Good. Good. I like it. I like it. I like it. I like it. But that wasn't finished yet. Oh, sorry, sorry. What was it? That's the first point of the early church. Second point. The second pillar. Okay. The second pillar is the letter G, it's not the letter G. The G is lying down. The G is lying down. Okay. Well, people misunderstand. Some even mislead. Oh, this is a heretical church. The letter G is lying down, they say it's tilted. Oh. I just realized. Oh. I thought it was just a variation. Oh, no, what is it? What is it? It's actually not the letter G, but it's a pictogram of the letter bet. Oh, the Hebrew letter bet. Its pictogram is like that. Okay. Okay. So it's a pictogram. So why bet? Well, the philosophy of bet is house, temple. Bet L is temple. Temple of God. Temple of God. Hmm. Well, I want to remind all members of the early church that our bodies are the temple of God. Wherever we go, our bodies are the temple of God. Okay. If people remember that, they will never dare to sin. Yes. Yes. Yes. The Holy Spirit is within. Who remembers this as part of, yes, something holy. Yes, that's right. Well, the third point is the Bible above the logo, and in the middle is the cross of alif. So the basis of truth is the word of truth. The Bible. Hmm. Which is Christocentric, with the cross in the middle. Hmm. Hmm. Well, that means Christ-centered. Yes. Because there are certain denominations whose center is not Christ. What is it? We don't need to mention it. We don't label churches. But at least we can say Unitarian. Okay. Adoptionism. Wow, this is getting heavy. And so on and so forth. So Jesus Christ's role is lowered to an ordinary human who is then elevated to God. Well, that's not right. Because the Bible's center is Christ. We worship Christ to reach the Father. To find the Father. To find the Father. The Bible says, well, this is the biblical text. Because our Father is one, God is one, so the mediator is also one, namely Jesus Christ the human. Clear? Okay. Okay. That's clear. Well, that's why explicit biblical texts should not be changed. Hmm. H. If it's interpretation, then fine, whatever you want, even if it's not necessarily correct. So, so, I've been catching the impression of a longing to return to orthodoxy. This is slightly different from, please don't equate it with the orthodox church. Yes, but orthodoxy means a spirit of returning to something that is straight from the beginning. Yes. Something that, yes, is as it was from the beginning. So, Pak Winyo actually understands "early" to be in the teachings, so the basis is always there. The basis is truth. Hmm. That's why I teach that there are seven natures of truth, please. Well, one of them, the first characteristic of truth is that it must be in accordance with facts. Okay. If it's not in accordance with facts, it's not truth. Good. In the postmodern era, even beyond postmodernism, truth is not in accordance with facts because people are more subjective, their perceptions are said to be very wrong, for example, gender issues are not just male or female, but other genders, so it's relative. That's dangerous, that's dangerous. The second nature of truth is coherence. Our Bible cannot have contradictions within it. Good. The third is pragmatic. Truth will definitely change someone, it has the power to change someone. If not, even evil changes. Hmm. Hmm. Darkness also changes. Hmm. That's why there's a term for sufficient condition and complete condition. Well, like in mathematics. Hmm. Well, so if it's just pragmatic, it's not necessarily truth. Good. If it's just in accordance with facts, it's not necessarily truth. Good. Truth has facts, is pragmatic, coherent, and so on, those seven. Well, that could be made into a book someday because I see there isn't one yet. Please, today. But unfortunately, today people's interest in literacy might not be very good. Yes, I understand completely. That's why we are also very diligent in creating content on YouTube. Because young people play on social media. Not just young people, Pak Winyo. Older people too, nowadays. Guys, before sleeping, spend 2 hours scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. Well, older people sometimes, yes, sometimes the anomaly I observe is that older people spend more time on their phones than young people. That's sometimes, yes, it doesn't always apply to everyone, but that's what I see. Meaning we have to play there, so that they scroll correctly. That's the spirit. So the church is present, meaning truth is present in all lines, including what people are watching. Yes, that's right. Yes. So, Pak Winyo, this early church is again based on the teachings. So, how about, we haven't touched on the fact that people think "early" refers to the book of Acts, Pak Winyo. Yes. Yes. Well, that's why on this occasion, I want to convey that what is meant by "early" is early truth. Hmm. Why? Indeed, there is truth that is not early, not truth that is other than early. Well, those interpretations, there are so many interpretations. Hmm. So that on social media there are debates between apologists, it's noisy. Ah, yes, I don't like that. I'll go back to the beginning. When I face apologists, I just give explicit verses. Yes. It might offend. Oh, it doesn't offend me. Because I'm not the type of person who likes to debate. In the sense that I want to talk if the person is on the same frequency. Yes, because if you talk to someone who wants to win a debate, then fine, you win. I don't need to, I'll answer that because for me it's not important, it's not good. Someone insists with me that 1 + 1 = 3. Okay, bro. Take the three. Yes. I'll give you an example of truth that is in accordance with facts. Many people call YHWH "Yahweh" in the world. Good. Many tetragrammatons, right? Tetragrammaton. Yes. But the correct one is not Yahweh. What is it? The fact is, look at the biblical manuscript, what does it say? Yod he wohe. Not the sound Yahweh. Yod he wohe. Good. The vowels are missing. Good. If we look at the Masoretic text, what are the vowels? Try to read it. If we read it, I haven't investigated it yet. Well, I haven't investigated it in the Masoretes. In the Masoretic text. Hmm. The Masoretic group provides vowels. Okay. What are the vowels in YHWH? In the Masoretic text, what are they? If people don't understand, well, this is what theologians do. They don't understand Hebrew tradition. They look at the text, they learn basic Hebrew. They read Jehovah. Yehovah. But that's not it. Okay. There's a traditional story. Okay. After the Babylonian exile, the Jews didn't say it, so the pronunciation was lost. Yes. Well, to be safe or polite, they called it Adonai, Lord. Yes. Well, that's why the vowels are Adonai, the vowels are Adonai, the living letters are moved to Yahweh. Uh, read by Western theologians, Yahova, Jehova, in English, I see. Okay. Okay. Completely wrong. The practice is like that. The facts are like that. Try to check. So, is there a different pronunciation? People don't want to. They don't want to. It's not found. Okay. Okay. Lost. Lost. But what Pak Winyo means is that it's your own creation. Yes. It's a theologian's creation. For example, a creation later. Yes. Correct. If I'm not mistaken, it appeared in the 15th century or something, Yahweh, before that it didn't exist. Hmm. It's a theologian's creation. Okay. Well, that's an example. But encyclopedias and so on all use Yahweh, right? Hmm. They think it's correct, but it's not. Jehovah is also wrong. Hmm. Hmm. The problem is this, if ordinary people say it without knowing, then God is okay, of course. But if someone knows and does it intentionally, remember the law, do not take my name in vain. Okay, clear. Good. Well, you don't know, so you say Yahweh? The writing is not Yahweh. Come on, what about that? Come on. Good, good, good, good. I understand, Pak. One more thing. One more thing, "only by faith." It's very famous, right? Hmm. That's true. If faith is explained correctly, faith that has works. Yes, right? In the book of James, it's clear. Humans are saved by their deeds, not just by their faith. Yes. Meaning, with faith, there are works. In the context of faith without works is dead. Yes. So don't emphasize "only by faith," but misunderstand faith. That's dangerous. Because many people consult me for counseling, a wife. My husband, Pak, has bad morals but feels saved. Why? Because salvation has no connection with deeds. I'm tired. Then they say, because of salvation. Once saved, always saved. Always saved, they say. I'm tired. That's not allowed. If "only by faith" is good, but faith must be explained so that people don't misunderstand, that's what I mean. I have been in those conflicts for years. Meaning, because I am a product of theology school and also the emphasis on doctrines of reform. Yes. So that became something that was repeatedly emphasized. Somehow, I only realized when I was studying before theology, I was familiar with a campus ministry movement that was also active in Surabaya. So I saw an excessive emphasis on doctrine. If you are saved, you are always saved. Even somehow I sometimes heard people preach, yes, even to the level that Judas, for example, was saved because Judas believed in Jesus. Well, then, later, not recently, when I was in theology school, I joined a local church and then tried to synthesize, let alone re-examine all of that. I feel that as a servant of God, I am very uncomfortable when I teach the congregation something that is memorized and repeated without proper understanding. Because people end up falling into debates that I think are wrong. Debates about whether you are saved or not saved. If you don't do good deeds or if you commit sins, if your morals are bad, are you still saved? Some people will defend it 100%, they are still saved. Yes. Finally, I came to a realization that oh, the understanding is wrong. Yes, that's the wrong understanding of faith. Yes, for example, believing in Jesus, we think of believing in Jesus. Demons also believe in Jesus. Demons fear Jesus more, respect Jesus more than we do. Yes. So I say, we must reach the correct articulation, which is entrusting yourself to Jesus. Entrusting your thoughts, entrusting your truth and your deeds to Jesus. That is the true meaning of belief. Yes. And I say this is what churches often don't teach. Unfortunately, churches are just trapped in formal sermons. Or formal sermons, I say, repeating something that is either humanist, yes, just humanist, or motivational, or memorized doctrinal sermons. It's a shame, Pak Winyo. What do you think? Well, that's why when we preach in church, we don't follow any pattern. We just convey what is the complete truth. Just convey it. Yes. Because I found, hmm, when I read the Bible myself without looking at any books, I found many mistakes from the past. Hmm. From the past, meaning the perception of many people. Okay. For example. People have the perception that the Jordan River parted like the Sea of Galilee. Is there a lot of perception like that? Joshua, I mean, when Joshua entered. Okay. But it didn't part. The Jordan River. It didn't part. Okay. I haven't investigated that yet. Well, I haven't investigated it because I read it myself and I know it's wrong. Oh, the text says the flow from above was stopped by a certain power. Good. So the wall looked dry. Dry. Oh, it wasn't parted. Ha. Yes. Yes. Yes. Okay. That's an example. Another example, many will be offended if I speak later. It's okay. This is a place to discuss. It's called self-criticism. Self-criticism. Okay. For example, many believe that Pharaoh's heart was hardened by God. Okay. Yes, they don't read the Bible. They read inherited books. What explanation did Pak Winyu find? Read. I read it directly. Pharaoh himself hardened his own heart. From the beginning. Yes. Until the sixth plague, then God got angry and hardened it. Yes. So because Pharaoh had already hardened his heart, God punished him. Yes. Yes. Yes. By hardening Pharaoh's heart. Well, I connect this with Romans chapter 1. Romans chapter 1, where it says, "For the wrath of God is revealed against them who, who, who, we read the context, against those who oppose God." Well, well, so God's wrath is revealed by what? It is revealed by God giving them over to their lusts. Yes. So God allows them to walk in their stubbornness. Yes. Well, that is actually a punishment from God by allowing it. Agreed. Agreed. Well, like Ananias and Sapphira, they were killed immediately. That's God's punishment. If Pharaoh was hardened, then others would be allowed to be. That's punishment. So it never happened. Ready. Ready. Ready. So it never happened. God is like this. Oh, there's a good person, I'll harden his heart so he perishes. No. Ready. Ready. Ready. Ready. So, Pak Winyo, how do you see the reality today that many Christians, in my opinion, are not accustomed to the discipline of reading the Bible? We are talking about teachings, you have been emphasizing teachings all along. What about those who today, I observe, many Christians are not accustomed to the discipline of reading the Bible. So they only know Christianity from sermons and only open the Bible during sermons. Yes. Well. Well, that's why at GMM we have a program called Online Bible Study. Well, online Bible study usually has few interested parties, but we have many called, few chosen. Does that offend? But being offended is good. If you are offended, it's good. What does it mean? It means the Holy Spirit is still working. After that, repent. Yes. Not like this. Watch out. Which way are you going home? So the online Bible study that we present at GMM is a bit different. Usually, Bible studies focus on a book, like Genesis, just Genesis, biblical focus. Yes. Yes. Book by book. If this is not the case. When I discuss Genesis and encounter the issue of circumcision, I immediately finish it until the New Testament. So, discuss circumcision directly. Yes. So, the point is, don't get stuck on Genesis. Yes, the important thing is circumcision of the heart, circumcision in Christ. Yes, yes. Yes. Well, that's why the New Testament is the lens that explains what happened. Yes. Meaning, our final condition, should we be circumcised or not, is important. Don't let people get stuck on what we wrote about circumcision. Correct. Well, because I am a systematic theology lecturer. Oh, okay. So I, slowly after encountering an issue, I finish systematic theology. Okay. Well, that's where Pak Winya teaches. Uh, previously at STT. Oh, systematic theology. Yes. Hmm. I used to teach at STT Betel Indonesia, and most recently at STT Kumini Jakarta. Hmm. Hmm. Systematic theology. Good. Good. So from there, I can see that people become interested. Because if it's just reading the Bible verse by verse, hmm, this begat this, this begat this, this begat this, you'll fall asleep and won't get the point. It's a good medicine for insomnia, a sleeping pill. A friend once told me that he was so insomniac that he read the Old Testament, but it still didn't help. He still couldn't sleep. Oh, I see. Maybe at that time God wanted him to read the Bible. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. Okay. Continue, continue, continue, continue. What else? Well, so the point is, the early church is in the spirit of teaching that is continuously emphasized to the congregation. Yes. Yes. What about fellowship? Okay. Our fellowship is done online. Hmm. Because if we have to meet, for now, it's not possible because of total traffic jams. On weekdays. Oh, yes. Well, online is good, Pak. The location, the disclaimer, the location of GMM is in the PIK area. PIK is a place I really avoid because of the traffic jams. Oh, that place. And another thing, when we hold online fellowship, people from all over the world join. Oh, even from America, the Netherlands, from everywhere join. Okay, okay, okay, okay. Wednesday nights. Okay, okay, okay, okay. But Sundays are still services. Services. Saturday or Sunday? Saturday, there's a youth community. Oh, okay. Uh, youth, young adults, there's a combined men's and women's community. Hmm. There are seminars on Saturdays. Hmm. There's something called spiritual impartation. Hmm. That's specifically for workers, servants of God at GMM. Hmm. But the congregation can also listen and come. Oh, okay, okay, okay. Okay. That's spiritual impartation, the values of GMM. Okay. That's on Saturdays. That's Saturday. Saturday, twice a month, every Saturday. I've often wondered, Pak Winyo. I often wonder because I think about things that are actually behind the phenomena we see. One of the things I wonder about is this, Pak Winyo. Perhaps the true church will be revealed when, somehow, all church buildings suddenly disappear. The church signs collapse. No churches are allowed. Then the church will be revealed. Which one is truly the church? Yes. Yes. Because the early church was like that. The early church had no church buildings, no church signs, and people didn't ask, "What denomination are you?" Yes. Yes, yes, yes. That's why the early church is what made me notice. When Pak Winyo said "early church," I immediately thought, "Okay." What do you think, Pak Winyo? Yes. So, actually, the church should not be limited by buildings. Hmm. Limited by buildings, by traditions, by denominations, let alone. Hmm. That's why this is good, the name 360. Seriously, it's good. Good. So the church must reach all segments of society. Yes. From young to old, from secular to all fields. Yes. It must be reached. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. It should be like that. And churches should not be enemies of each other. Unless their doctrine deviates. Well, in that case, we can't. If it doesn't deviate, if there are different interpretations, then okay, let's not be antagonistic. Hmm. Hmm. Let's learn together. Debates are okay, good, but not enmity. Hmm. He. Well. What often happens is that people can't debate. When they lose a debate, they get angry. And then they attack personally. And even if they don't want to, even before losing, their goal is to defeat the opponent. Ah, especially with ad hominem attacks. Yes. That's why I dislike people who can't debate. I don't want to. They call me a coward, Pak Winyo. Yes, they call me a coward. What do you mean? I am indeed a coward. Afraid of God. Oh, afraid of God. Ready, ready, ready, ready, ready, ready, ready. Okay. So, so, mm, perhaps today, with the diverse views of churches that usually compete with each other, according to Pak Winyo. In my opinion, if they compete, it's called cooperation, not competition. Okay. Competition means competing to be the best for God. That's good. Hmm. But if it's competition, they take members, pick them up, feed them, give them incentives. That's not the right way to evangelize. L. Is there still? Yes. I've heard there is. Yes. Ah. Hmm. But on the other hand, churches threaten their congregations if they don't pay tithes. This is very sad. Well, this is the last point I want to discuss. Oh, Pak Winyo's name caught my attention because there are so many people appearing on social media. So, Pak Winyo's name appeared when I saw some of his videos that were discussed repeatedly by many people and posted about tithes. Yes. Can you give some insight into that? Because it's very controversial. Okay. Good. Hmm. So, it's like this. Tithes are part of the Law of Moses. Hmm. Clear? Hmm. Well, is the Law of Moses still applicable? Clearly not. Hmm. Ephesians 2:15. Okay. By his death as a human, he has abolished the entire Law of Moses with all its decrees. Hmm. So that both may become one. Both are Israel and non-Israel. Good. Gentiles and the chosen people, so they become one in Jesus Christ. Yes. Well, so the law is abolished, circumcision, burnt offerings, and so on are no longer necessary. Not unnecessary, but abolished. Good. But many people object. Hmm. Because it's about money. Good. They need money. I'm not saying I don't need money. Churches need to be supported. Agreed. Yes, but not by using the Law of Moses, let alone misusing it. Not when people are already in economic difficulty. Hmm. Chasing like a debt collector. You haven't paid, the grasshopper will come later. That kind of practice exists? Oh, it's a lot, Pak. Someone came to me and said, "I'm afraid to go to church. Why? Because I haven't paid my tithes." Well, the sentence itself is wrong. I can't pay. They come to church and are ignored by the pastor. I, throughout my churchgoing experience, have attended churches of various denominations. That's why I always use the term, from the left to the right of the church. Yes, but I've never encountered a church that goes to that extreme. Hmm. I see. But that incident has happened, and it's still happening today. It's still happening today. Now, let's not talk about small churches or anything. Very large churches justify all means to prove that tithes are still applicable. Imagine. Hmm. There is a very senior person, a senior person, the same age. Hmm. He defends it by saying that since the Law of Moses has been abolished, he is confused about how to defend it. Hmm. He runs away. He says tithes are not part of the Law of Moses. It was practiced by Abraham. Oh, by Melchizedek. Melchizedek. Yes. Wrong again. You haven't read the Bible. Hmm. When Abraham won the war, he offered 10% of the spoils to Melchizedek. Hmm. What about the remaining 90%? Read the Bible verse. The remaining 90% was returned to the King of Sodom so that I wouldn't be called rich because of the spoils of war. Read that. So how is it applied now? Give 10% of your salary to the church, return 90% to the person who earns the salary. Come on. Oh, that can be considered, Madam. Yes, please do so. The second thing is this. There are many laws in the Torah. Why do you only implement tithes and first fruits? Your motive is revealed. Do you understand what I mean? I am not against offerings. Yes, give offerings, even more than 10%. Yes. If you are rich, just give without calculating. Dare to calculate with God. Yes, yes. Calculate with God. Your breath has probably exceeded the limit. A little discount. Well, lastly, first fruits. The first fruits that are twisted are just collecting revenue. It's actually a church like a business. First fruits are just a sheaf of wheat. Hmm. Is it possible for that to be 1 month's salary, 1 month's entire harvest? Imagine the Temple of God being that small, and then all of Israel's harvest being given to the Temple of God, becoming a granary, a wheat storehouse. It wouldn't be enough. Hmm. Read the Bible. That's why the early church uses biblical texts. Hmm. The biblical text says a sheaf of wheat. Then the priest holds it, the best one. Yes, he waves it as a sign for God. Hmm. That's it. H. Why is it now 1 month's salary? Now, don't get me wrong, I'm a pastor. Hmm. If I followed that, it would be easier, a lot of money. Yes. But I don't follow it. I don't want to violate God's word. Yes, it doesn't mean our church doesn't need money, it needs it to pay electricity and so on. Of course, it needs it. But I don't want to use biblical verses in the wrong way. Tricking the congregation. Yes. Yes. Yes. My words, sorry. Tricking, because religion can certainly be used to trick people, or anywhere, anywhere, even any religion can be abused. Yes. Yes. That's it. Wow. This is news. This kind of firm tone is what makes some people realize, perhaps. Yes. That oh yes, something has been wrong all this time. Although some will still insist. Some will insist again, feeling disadvantaged. Pak Winyo, if you meet Christians, this is the last one, really the last one. Usually, people say, Pak Winyo's closing remarks. Well, usually it's like that, we want to make it smooth, not too formal. So, meaning, for friends who are listening, what do you want to emphasize to grassroots Christians? Because earlier we were talking, before this conversation, I told Pak Winyo, I was explaining the philosophy of Church 360. Because Church 360 was created to discuss blind spots. That's the polite term, the rough term is problems that are covered up. Yes, that are not resolved in the church, that's the rough term. It needs to be discussed so that? Who knows, politely, there are leaders who are indeed unaware. Yes, there are. There must be those who are unaware. They are sincere but unaware. Yes, there are many. But there are also those who are aware but pretend. Yes. Pretend not to hear, not to know. Yes. Pak Winyo says, "Wow, it's hard to change leaders." That's true. That's indeed the fact, but it needs to be discussed. Yes. At least the grassroots. Yes. The congregation needs to discuss it. Correct. What do you think, Pak Winyo, should be discussed by the congregation today in the church? Pak Winyo, please. Okay. So, actually, this is for all servants of God and for all congregations. Hmm. A sheep, another sheep of God listens to its shepherd. Hmm. But a true shepherd. That's why it's the duty of all the congregation to find a true shepherd. Well. I never thought of that. Never? They never thought of this statement. Oh, the sheep's duty is to find the shepherd. Yes. Hmm. The shepherd also looks for the sheep, the same. So, don't let the sheep be taken by a wolf shepherd. This is a shepherd. But it's a wolf, a thief. Well, a thief. Yes. The devil disguises himself as an angel of light. Hmm. So, don't let the congregation be unable to distinguish between a true shepherd and one who is not. There are many like that. Yes. That's the problem. Yes. That's why they must be able to distinguish. How to distinguish? One of them is what I seminar on, the seven natures of truth. I discuss it there, so in simple terms, I mean, let's make all the congregation smart. Yes. So that they cannot be deceived by the evil one. Good. Understand the word so that they cannot be deceived by the evil one. Good. That is our collective effort. Good. Life is only once. Hmm. What do you want to find? YOLO. Ah, ready, ready, ready, ready, to the leaders. Yes. This is for the congregation. Yes, to the leaders. Well, let it be. Past mistakes, everyone has made mistakes. Yes. Don't make mistakes in the future. Yes. So don't be offended by my sermons. There's no other intention. Hmm. Let's all be aware and return to the Bible. Read the Bible again. Don't read books. Inherited books, mistakes are passed down, mistakes are passed down. Read the Bible. What does Pak Winyo mean by "books"? Books of theology, books of interpretation, various books, including commentaries. But of course, there are good theology or interpretation books. Oh, yes, of course. I mean, perhaps his words, perhaps, yes, yes. I mean, when reading, don't swallow 100% without checking. Yes. Check it. Of course, one book is not 100% wrong. No. The evil one cannot destroy everything. Just a little, a drop, a drop of poison spoils a whole jug of milk. Those terms are very classic, very secular. Classic, I say. Okay. Thank you, Pak Winyo. Okay, thank you for the opportunity. Thank you for talking about the early church. I often think about the early church as something that should remain our longing. Our longing to be a church as Jesus Christ wants. How the church was intended from the beginning to be founded by Christ, the head of the church, so that we, his followers, become the church, become his followers, become people who realize the kingdom of God on earth as it is in heaven. That means involving sincerity. That's the first thing. Sincerity to truly live Jesus' teachings. The second is to make our lives ultimately live out the teachings of Jesus Christ. If it aligns with what Pak Winyo shared, return to what the word says. Because in the end, this is a very long homework journey. Very long, perhaps it can be called a marathon, a relay. A marathon or a relay. But what makes me grateful is this, Pak Winyo, because in this relay, in the end, there are no stars. We are all instruments, and we are his servants. Correct. Christ is the most important. Correct. So I pray that friends will find and then become agents of transformation of such churches. We will meet again in the next Church 360 content. God bless you all. [Music]