Celtic History Podcast 1887-1900 (made with Spreaker)

[Music] Hello and welcome to episode one of the Celtic History podcast. This is the first of 10 podcasts that will chart the history of the club from 1887 up to current day.

Originally, we were going to charge a pound or 50p for the podcast and put it up on iTunes, but they were going to charge us nearly $50 an episode. And we thought that all the charities that we will be nominating over the next 10 weeks would be able to put that $500 to better use than on iTunes. So as an alternative, you can go to heelhillmedia.com, follow the links for the Celtic history podcast and donate 50p, a pound, a fiver if you're feeling very generous. And you know that all the money will go to the charities selected by our guests.

In chapter 1, I'm absolutely delighted to be joined by Jim Ble and Paul McQuade from the Celtic Grave Society. We will cover the period 1887 to 1900. Hope you enjoy it.

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In 1888, my boys, a group of Irish men had formed a brand new football team in Glasgow. Brother Walfrid welcomed them in St. Mary's Hall. He said, "Celtic first and Celtic last and Celtic overall." Celtic Football Club. The opening chapter.

Throughout the Victorian age, Glasgow warred with pride. "The Legend, Second City of the Empire" was a frequently proclaimed title which aimed to highlight to the world Glasgow's growing reputation as both an industrial powerhouse and as one of the finest cities in Europe. But as is so often the case, the superficial trappings of imperialism hid a grotesque reality. In the 1880s, Glasgow was among the most densely populated cities in Europe. Away from the mansions of the wealthy trade merchants, poverty was rife. It was a city scarred by squalor, deprivation, decay, and disease. For its poorest citizens, life was a nightmare of unimaginable suffering.

It was against this backdrop on the afternoon of Sunday, November the 6th, 1887, a meeting to constitute the formation of the Glasgow Celtic Football and Athletic Club was called to order at St. Mary's Church Hall in the city's East End. Here, Sligo-born Brother Walfrid, along with men like John Glass, Dr. John Conway, and Pat Welsh, had been inspired by the success of the famous Hibernian Club of Edinburgh and now wanted to establish a football club of their own to aid the impoverished Irish Catholic community. These were men driven by a desire to not just save their people from poverty but to help them retain their dignity, through the poor children's dinner table in Celtic Football Club. These men wanted to put food in the belly and pride in the heart.

So it was on May the 28th, 1888, Celtic Football Club had their first official match against the Rangers XI, dubbed the Swifts. Celtic defeated their opponents 5-2 before officials from both clubs celebrated the occasion at a formal reception. Celtic quickly established themselves as one of the best-supported sides in Britain. On and off the field, the ambitious new club was a significant success. In 1889, Celtic would reach the final of the Scottish Cup in their first full season of competition. They would lose the final 2-1 to Third Lanark. However, that same year, the club claimed its first trophy, the Glasgow North Eastern Cup, crashing Cowdenbeath 6-1 in the final. In 1892, Celtic would lift the Scottish Cup for the first time, defeating city rivals Queens Park 5-2 in the final at Ibrox Park.

These successes should have meant a welcome financial boost for the charities at the heart of the club's very existence. But as the victories and gate receipts mounted up, there emerged a growing tension within the club. AGMs and committee meetings became a bitter battleground for the very future of Celtic. By 1892, with the influential Brother Walfrid now in London, not a single penny was given to the poor children's dinner table. At the AGM of 1893, committee members John H. McLoughlin and Joseph Shaughnessy opposed the club taking immediate steps to become a limited company. After an emotive meeting, they were defeated 86 votes to 31. There was, however, a temporary setback. This war of attrition for the future of Celtic finally came to an end, somewhat ironically, at St. Mary's Church Hall in March 1897. Using a supposed need for stadium improvements to further their argument, the committee once more proposed that Celtic convert to a limited company. This time, the vote was successful. Less than 10 years after the formation of Celtic, the club's original proud aims and principles had all but been abandoned.

In reality, the move to a limited company had to be made if Celtic were to remain a competitive and thriving football club. And while the club were no longer putting food in the belly, the performances on the pitch were certainly giving Glasgow's Irish community a sense of intense pride. But it was a pride which was also shared by many who were neither Irish or Catholic. For a club of Irish and Catholic roots, one which represented a community which faced hatred and discrimination on a daily basis, it would have been all too easy in those early days to follow the sectarian policy of the early Hibernian. Indeed, some in the club pressed for such a policy. But the founding fathers of Celtic resisted such temptations, viewing them as alien to the principles of the club, both on and off the pitch. This would be a club open to all.

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Neil McCallum scored the first, and then he realized the game was over. And then James Kelly handed to him the ball. They said, "Celtic first and Celtic last and Celtic overall."

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Okay, it is the 27th of May, the night before the 125th anniversary of the first Celtic game ever, and this is the first episode of the Celtic History Podcast, and I'm absolutely delighted to say that I have with me this evening Jim Bell and Paul McQue from the Celtic Grave Society. Good evening, gentlemen.

Good evening, Chris.

So, we have a bit of a mountain in front of us. We've got 125 years to go, and tonight we're going to cover the first period of the history, which will take us from 1887 up until 1900. And hopefully, we'll have a wee chat about how the club was formed, some of the early characters that we had, and some of the initial success and the development of the club in the early years. And I can't think of anybody better to have on this evening than your two good selves who have studied in depth the living the dream, Chris, just go with me on this, who have studied in depth all those years, including the first team that ever played for Celtic. And I know you lads have done an awful lot of work in identifying the graves of the first team. And I can think of no better place to start on the eve of the first match than with the first Celtic team.

Yeah, thanks for having us on, mate. Much appreciated. So, Paul actually joins us tonight as well. And, Paul, you haven't been on the Lost Boys podcast before. If you could just sort of give us a wee quick introduction of who you are, what you're doing, and why you got involved in the podcast tonight?

Yeah. Well, my involvement really stems from being a member of the Celtic Grave Society. And the first major project that we undertook was to identify where the first ever Celtic team, where they were buried, you know. And we found out that two of them were buried in the States, one of them was buried in Prague. The remainder were all over Scotland, some relatively close to Celtic Park. And as a result of that, Chris, and the Grave Society, we've really all taken a keen interest in the club's foundation in the early years, and we keep finding out more and more information, and it's an absolutely fascinating story. There's obviously been a lot of histories done of Celtic, but there's been no single book, for example, on the club's foundation, no single book on the first 10 years or so. So there's a fair bit known, but I would say a lot of detail isn't that well known.

Well, hopefully we can remedy that tonight. And just before we get into the first 11, which I know is very close to your heart, somebody take us away on the formation of the club, 'cause hopefully this will be informative to our listeners as well. And although we all do know our history very well, there's always wee bits that we should be eager to learn about. And I'm sure we'll find plenty of little tidbits that we'll all be driving in our cars going, "Oh, didn't know about that."

November the 6th, 1887, the actual formation of the club in what was St. Mary's Hall, what was the original St. Mary's Hall, which was actually the League of the Cross Hall, League of the Cross of St. Mary's, who were a temperance movement. There were various branches throughout Glasgow, and some of the founding fathers, the leading lights of the club in the early days, and of course, Walfrid and Dorothius, were massively important in the early temperance movement and trying to find a way to take some of the more wayward young lads of the community out of the drinking dens and put them into athletic pursuits whilst raising money for the poor kids' dinner tables. Now, Celtic, of course, were formed in 1887, first match 1888. But there was a real challenge for the club. And earlier on today, I had a wee look at just some of the other Irish clubs in Scotland of that era. Paul tells me there were 62 apparently Irish clubs which were formed in Scotland, and here are some which were in existence up to 1882 who went out of existence. So, the first incarnation of Dundee Hibs, there was a Dundee Hibs before Dundee United. Vale of Leven Hibs, Greenburn Hibs, Stirling Hibs. Here comes a shocker. Kilsyth Hibs, the Southern Hibernians of Dumfries, Largs and Emerald, Leith Harp, Dundee Harp, Roxburgh, Shamrock, who Dan Doyle played for, I think. Yeah. Cambuslang Hibs, who Phil Murray and Jimmy McMy played for. There was Leith Shamrock and Leith Harp. And there was even a team called Celtic who played out of Partick. So all of these clubs had been set up to try and represent, in a sporting sense, the Irish of Scotland, and all of them ultimately failed. And it was with that background that the founding fathers of the club set about the task not just to found the great club of Celtic, but to actually make sure that it stayed, Chris. And that was almost a bigger task than just playing the first match, to make sure that once we started, we weren't going to fail.

And it's amazing to hear all those names because when we do read the history books, you know, we read about Hibernian or Edinburgh Hibernian coming to Glasgow and playing the game and then all going to Coylton afterwards, and all of a sudden this idea of a Glasgow Irish team sprung up. But to think that it was only just one team again is something that we probably didn't all know about. And the match that happened in Glasgow was definitely the springboard for the formation of the club. And that's when the names start to arrive where we hear about John Glass and Brother Walfrid. And when you look at the guys that actually were the founding fathers, there were some famous names in there from politics, from the church, from all different sectors of Glasgow at the time.

That's absolutely right, Chris. Because in terms of the club's first two patrons, we had the Archbishop of Glasgow. And the second patron is of course Michael Davitt. Michael Davitt's role in Celtic is quite significant more because of the people who formed the club and their links, direct links with Michael Davitt. John Glass more or less ran the Home Government branch of the Irish National League in Glasgow. John Glass's main political associate was John Ferguson, who was considered the leader of the Glasgow Irish, and he was Davitt's key political ally in Scotland. And of course, Michael Davitt came to lay the turf from Donegal in the new ground, and of course kicked the ball in that game as well. It turns out nearly all the founding fathers of the club had some role or other in the Irish National League of the day. We know that one or two, like David himself, had some dabblings previously in the Fenian movement as well. So that whole side to what these people were looking to achieve in the East End, in the center of Glasgow at the time, was directed towards reaffirming that identity, keeping it alive to a large extent.

It's quite amazing that there was never a significant Glasgow Irish team before Celtic, and there's no real good reason for that, in all honesty. As you say, Hibernian had been in the made their first Scottish Cup final in 1887. It was the biggest ever attendance in a game in Scotland, 15,000. And it was a really significant event, but there's no doubt that they drew huge support from the Irish community in Glasgow. And of course, what Walfrid, John Glass, Dr. Conway were looking to do was to maximize that support for a team from Glasgow itself. Because it turns out, you know, most of the Hibernian players were from the West of Scotland, and yet they weren't the community as such being represented until that time in football. And of all of those names I read out, you know, they go back to some of them, you know, they're all, you know, North Lanarkshire or, you know, Stirling, Broxburn, through in Edinburgh, very, very few in Glasgow itself. And those who were in Glasgow were no more than amateur or junior teams. So the Irish players at that time who wanted to play for an Irish team, if you know, they really did have to try and make their name at Hibs in Edinburgh. And, you know, all of the guys who Paul has just quoted, as well as being politicians, they were all fixers. I don't know how strong the democracy movement was at the time, but if those guys wanted something to be done, they tried to make sure that it was done. Some of the methodology, I suspect was a wee bit suspect, but, you know, they were determined to make the club a success. And if that meant that they had to make use of backroom politics and to make use of the connections they had, both politically or through the license trade, or Glass was a builder, you know, if Glass had to use his contacts in the building trade, that's exactly what they did. So that group of people were very, very determined, as I said, that the club were going to be a success and made the most of every connection they had.

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Jack the Ripper continues to slash his way through Whitechapel. I must be a better way of getting the news these days. I've heard of a small printing press that started publishing papers by the name of the Daily Mail. It's an interesting read. Gives one an insight into current affairs without listening to the bellowing voice of that town crier. It's quite fascinating the events of today. Did you hear that Tchaikovsky's died after his sixth symphony? A sad day for the arts. We've lost Vincent Van Gogh as well. Poor chap went down after painting Starry Night. Interesting. From one Dutchman to several others, the Boer War rages on. Several British men fighting over there for the glory of the empire. And what a day of great architecture as well. British engineering standing proud. And well, we also have the Eiffel Tower, a great monument in Paris, inaugurated this year.

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So it seems a bit strange that with the famine in Ireland in the 1840s and the diaspora moving throughout the world, and obviously a large section of the Irish population ended up in Scotland, particularly in Glasgow, and maybe to a lesser extent in Edinburgh. It seems strange that they didn't actually form a Gaelic football team. I mean, the whole soccer idea, as you've probably heard us talking in the past, on the Belfast Celtic Society, you know, was a garrison sport. It wasn't very Catholic to play soccer. And when you look at the formation of a football team, would this have been an opportunity for the traditional Irish Catholic to be more accepted into society in what Scotland was at the time?

Well, I mean, Joe, Dr. Joe Bradley has written a book about the history of the GAA in Scotland, and Michael Davitt was one of the first patrons of the GAA as well as being a patron of Celtic. It's interesting because the Gaelic games didn't appear to be all that popular. Um, I know that Gaelic games were played in some of the well-known villages such as Croy and Croy way back, you know, decades ago. But it doesn't appear as though organizationally it really took root to any significant degree. I mean, there's still a number of teams who continue to play today in Scotland, Gaelic football particularly, but not even, I would suggest, all that high profile within the Irish community in the West of Scotland. So it is unclear. Perhaps part of the answer, Chris, lies in the fact that of the founding fathers, they were all second-generation Irish. I don't think any of them were born in Ireland other than Walfrid. So we're talking families who'd been here for the best part of 30, 40 years. And the GAA itself, I don't think was formed until about the same time as Celtic as well. So I don't know how GAA games were structured in Ireland before the GAA came along. But football itself was fantastically popular in England and Scotland in the 1870s and 1880s. It was a bit of a phenomenon in many respects. And as you say, it's interesting W. Walfrid, coming from Sligo, he gets the youth to play football with a team called Coolock. Doesn't appear to be any concerted effort to get Gaelic games up and running in Glasgow beyond. But it was huge competition, you know, as you say, football was so popular. There were a lot of works teams, people, you know, there were teams for every street corner, it seemed. And to challenge the dominance of football, we think football now is a dominant force, but back then football was massively important in industrialized Britain. And of course, Glasgow was at the epicenter of industrialized Britain. And, you know, to really challenge football, I know there were both men were athletic. Willie nearly actually won the Scottish Athletics Championship in the 100-yard sprint, was it, in 11 seconds in 1896? So there were other athletic pursuits, but, I mean, from what I've read, I don't know, Paul, I haven't seen that much, that any of our founding fathers had any interest in setting up a Gaelic team at all.

No. Well, the other interesting aspect to that, I think, is that Willie Maley is quoted some years after Celtic's formation as saying that none of the founding fathers had ever had any involvement in the game of football. And I think one of the main reasons as to why football, rather than any of the Gaelic games, were taken up was of course one of the main inspirations here was to raise money. And football crowds were such that Walfrid had already cottoned on to the idea that the best way to raise money for the poor children's dinner tables was to put on charity football matches. Which Hibs and the other, not the Glasgow teams, a lot of the Glasgow teams like Cowdenbeath were more than happy to help raise funds for the dinner table. So, of course, if you're looking to raise money quickly, and you've got a large community there who you're more or less guaranteed is going to come out and support that, that was the way they went. They went for football instead.

Yeah. So, just to put it into perspective as well, when you look at what we're talking about here, the penny dinners and the idea for the club getting set up to help the poverty in Glasgow, like, here's perspective for you. In 1888, there were 11,675 registered deaths in Glasgow, and 4,750 of those were children under the age of 5 years old. So the squalor and the poverty that the people were living in in that part of Glasgow must have been overwhelming.

Well, I mean, the area behind the Saltmarket in Glasgow, Chris, where a lot of fans will be familiar, even fans from outwith Glasgow and Scotland will be familiar with Saltmarket in the High Street area of Glasgow. There's a lot of Celtic pubs still there, and the area just behind, around about the Brig. At that time, there was a lot of social research going on in terms of monitoring illness and death rates. And there was that particular section of ground there, which is now a car park, between the Brig and High Street, was regarded as the most desperate area in the whole of Britain in terms of child mortality and adult mortality. And of course, that was exactly the point that was one of the two, sorry, that was one of the founding parishes essentially where the idea of Celtic emanated from, from the Cathedral Parish up to St. Aloysius. And as you see, desperation, of course, the club has a great history and association with St. Mary's Church. A lot of the early clergy in St. Mary's Church in Calton are buried in the church because they fell victim to the fever, which of course was heavily related to the visits that the priests made to individuals' homes to try and assist. So the clergy at the time took a direct hit there as well in terms of going out. And of course, through Dr. Conway, the club had an individual who was heavily involved in maintaining the community as best it could. But during the mass, during the 125th anniversary mass last year in St. Mary's, they read out the names of the priests who died in that era, in that era, and the names and the ages of, Chris, and what you forget is that, you know, the child poverty levels were shocking. When you look at the family histories of that era, you know, it still stops me in my tracks. I've got kids, and it still stops me in my tracks just seeing the sheer number of kids who were dying. But of course, living amongst that poverty and that squalor and that disease also affected those who were caring for them. So the names of those priests from St. Mary's in that era, you know, who are dying at 25 years old, 27 years old, 30 years old, 27 years old. And, you know, to hear that is, you know, it really brings it home, just just what men to try and raise the living standards of this community. And as Paul said, another great example, Dr. Conway. Dr. Conway gave up a potentially glittering medical career in London or in the affluent parts of Glasgow, 'cause that's the other part of Victorian Britain that there was huge affluence, you know, there were stunningly beautiful areas which are still there today. But Conway went and worked, stayed and practiced his medicine in the East End, and he saw just what a difference Celtic could make. But it had a huge personal cost, as Dr. Conway died at 35. And when we looked at his early family history again, you see the names Conway, Conway, Conway, all within five or six years of each other. His brothers were living and dying at the same age. My goodness. So, you know, these guys tried to form this football club for a reason because they saw people dying around about them. And it wasn't just the wider members of the community, it was their friends and it was their families too, because that was the price of living in the East End of Glasgow. So when you read about the formation of the club at that stage, it was a desperation as well to try and raise some funds for that part of Glasgow. Could you imagine the pressure that Walfrid and Glass and the rest of the guys were under to try and do something for that community? And here they are. Okay, we've got a brilliant idea of setting up a football team. Where would they have even started to get it off the ground?

Well, you're right. I mean, I remember there was a Green Brigade banner from just a couple of years ago, Chris, which said, "From desperation came celebration." And it really was desperation at that time. And as James touched on, you know, from that group of individuals, they weren't merely idealists, you know, they were very practically minded. They built a football ground, the biggest in the country, in a matter of months. They put a first-class team on the pitch in a matter of months, and they had almost instantaneous success. But that wasn't because of the fact, you know, that they were simply, I'm very fond of the suggestion sometimes, Hibs historians like to make the suggestion that Walfrid was hoodwinked by these business-minded people on the Celtic board at the time. Walfrid and his colleague Brother Dorothius were absolutely involved in every detail, not just in the founding of Celtic, but in its running for the first five, six, seven years. So the suggestion being, you know, that people like John Glass were happily riding on their coattails, waiting for their opportunity to take the club over. And in fact, what we found out is that the individual signing off Celtic's accounts in the first two or three years was Brother Dorothius. Him and Wright knew everything that was going on and were heavily involved, especially when it came to the really important issue which would guarantee success, of getting the best players from the community on board, and the lengths that they went to to keep them on board. There's some fantastic stories in there.

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Champagne up the...

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Pre-glass. Darling.

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Following the founding of the club in St. Mary's in November 1887, the new Celtic Football and Athletic Club had many issues ahead of them. One of those was the issue of where to play. There was never any question that the new club's home would be anywhere other than in the heart of the East End of Glasgow. Just a week after that founding meeting, the club found a home next to the Eastern Necropolis off Maryhill Street, now known as Springfield Road, where the club leased the land for a price of £50 per annum. With the land secured, the task of turning it into a stadium now lay ahead. Fortunately, with the local volunteer workforce, the stadium was constructed in less than 6 months. A level pitch, 110 yards long and 66 yards wide, was surrounded by three mounds of terracing and one open-air stand capable of holding 1,000 spectators. Within that stand were a referees' room, an office, dressing rooms, and washing toilet facilities. The stadium was opened on May 8th, 1888, with a match between Hibernian and Cowdenbeath, which ended goalless in front of a 5,000-strong crowd. The stadium's first goal would not come until 3 weeks later, when on May 28th, 1888, the home side took the lead in their first ever match in front of 2,000 spectators.

But alas, the original Celtic Park was only home to the club for 4 years. In 1892, Celtic's landlord, seeing the sensation the club had become and the size of the crowds flocking to see the team, raised the rent from £50 per annum to £450 per annum. Naturally, the Celtic committee were disgusted by this, but fortunately did not have too far to look for an alternative. Around the corner from the stadium, where a disused brickyard on Janefield Street contained within that brickyard was a 40ft quarry half-filled with water. However, the most inviting of land. However, the Celtic committee secured the rights to use it, and once more a local volunteer workforce made use of 100,000 cartloads of earth to fill the quarry and quickly build a second stadium in time for the 1892-93 season. Included in that new stadium was a piece of the place many locals still called home. The first turf laid in March 1892 came from Dunfermline Shamrocks and all, and was placed there by none other than Irish patriot Michael Davitt. The new stadium opened on August 13th, 1892, for the club's annual sports day and was ready for the first match at the new Celtic Park on August 20th against Renton, where Celtic would win 4-3. Having been previously adjacent to the Eastern Necropolis, where many supporters had perched on the wall to get the best view of the action, one observer remarked that it was like moving from the graveyard to paradise. And so a nickname was born.

Celtic's second stadium was quickly described as one of the best in the land. Consisting of a pavilion and a seated stand on the north side of the pitch, with terracing on the remaining three sides, the stadium could hold up to 40,000 spectators. Turnstiles were added as early as 1895. The pitch was also surrounded by a running track and a concrete cycling track, which were used to generate much-needed income and indeed would be at the center of a major decision for the club. In 1895, the Scottish Cyclist Union offered Celtic £500 to hire Celtic Park for the World Cycling Championships. Although the event was another two years away, the track would have to be upgraded to championship standard, and it was projected that Celtic would have to spend £900 on alterations. Although significantly more than the money they would bring in, it was clear that further future events would more than make up for the expenditure, as Celtic Park would become a choice venue for other cycling meetings. However, the Celtic committee refused to authorize the upgrade unless the club became a limited company. The motion was passed in March 1897, and the club remained a limited company for the next 97 years. The cycling championships went ahead at Celtic Park in July 1897, in front of 8,000 spectators. That same year, just 5 years into a 10-year lease, the club purchased the land upon which the second stadium had been built for £10,000. Celtic Park and the land that it was built on now belonged to Celtic.

And where did the funding come from for the ground and to entice people to come and play for this new team called Celtic? The ground itself was built by voluntary labor. So, you know, the background of the railway building and the road building of the Irish community certainly came in handy when it came to Celtic Park one. And as I say, you know, Glass's expertise was in the building trade. And there would have been, you know, a lot of favors pulled in there to make sure, you know, it was built in 6 months. To ensure that this ground was flattened, leveled, and, you know, it was a very good stadium for its time. And, you know, it was the community, for me, that's the important thing. We do talk about the founding fathers, and the founding fathers are massively important to Celtic Football Club, but it was the community itself that built and supported Celtic, and without that, without that community, the club wouldn't have stood a chance of success. And the fact that voluntary labor built Celtic Park is evidence of that. And we'll hear the development of the stadium throughout the podcast, because, Chris, from the Paradise Report, is going to chart that for us from now right up until modern day, from the foundation right up to modern day. And we'll hear how the club moved from ground to ground and some of the reasons behind that.

So, here we are. We've got a team set up. We've decided we're going to go into the Scottish Football League and we're going to put a team on the pitch. How did the club go about putting those first 11 players out in a white shirt with a Celtic cross on the breast?

The difficult task that they had was starting from scratch, Chris, you know, and the best players were signed up to various teams. Renton, Burnley, and Dumbarton, they were all earning money. So, as you say, do you know, I mean, where did the money originally come from? There was public subscriptions, which were significant, mostly from the Irish community, but then you had other individuals and groups in the East End, such as the Barr family, just moved into the Gallowgate with their juice factory at that time, also making contributions. But it wasn't enough. The money had to come from the people who lived there. And what Celtic had to do was get games organized quite quickly. So the ground was opened with a friendly between Hibernian and Cowdenbeath, which was very well attended. The first game, 125 years ago tomorrow, was the Rangers game, which was also very well attended. But the 11 people that Celtic selected for that first game, some of them are not well known. And when it came to the Grave Society trying to trace them, it's quite difficult because they don't feature in a lot of the official histories. Because when it comes to the first two years of Celtic's history, it's often only the Scottish Cup games which were considered official. And indeed, the first two, three seasons, most of the games that Celtic played were friendlies. So these individuals who they gathered in for that first game, some of them never played in the Scottish Cup. So details as to who they were, where they came from, and where they ended up were sometimes quite difficult to come by. But essentially, the focus of the early efforts was on a figurehead. And from that, the legend came. What was driving the founding fathers forward was no Kelly, no Celtic. Without James Kelly, many of them feared that the club would founder. Very early on. So James Kelly, who was the captain of Renton, who at that time were considered the world champions of football, even then. In his early days, he was the man they went for. They got him to play the first game, but the significant thing was, can we get him to play in the Scottish Cup? Because if we do, he and all the other leading players are cup-tied to us for that first year. And the importance of James Kelly can't be underestimated either, because not only did he play for Celtic, but I mean, he was chairman from 1909 to 1914 as well. There were Kelly family connections throughout the club from day one, all the way through to 1994. But, yeah, he was a massively significant figure. But, you know, the other thing we found, Chris, is that, you know, some of the lesser-known figures, you know, Kelly, Kelly is the highlight, Kelly is the marquee signing. But I remember when we tried to find out some more from the families themselves, and that was one of the great joys of the Celtic Grave Society projects, finding the burial places of the first team, was actually getting to speak to the families. So they're very nervous initially when you contact people out of the blue and say, "Excuse me, do you remember 125 years ago, played for Celtic?" But when we spoke to them, you know, Bill McLoughlin, James's grandson, he told us about all of these family connections with the club. You know, he played, apparently, no competitive games, but he wears around his neck the first ever medal won by a Celtic player, which was the Glasgow North Eastern Cup in 1899. And they then told us about the connections, the background connections, how James McLoughlin had gone on to become a referee. He was Celtic's referee of choice. He was well respected. And then the family stayed involved, and the family married into other Celtic families, and they funded the club during some of the dark times. And I mean, up on my shelf here, Bill gifted the Grave Society a couple of season tickets from the 1930s, and the McLoughlin family have seat number one in the director's box. So this family are held in massive esteem. And yet you're thinking, why have we not heard of them? And I think there are a lot of connections, as you say, Kelly was the marquee signing, and Kelly was massively important to get the confidence of the community behind them and to get the press publicity. However, you know, there were other connections, I think, in the background which were really solid, and those solid connections carried the club through, you know, all the way to, as I mentioned, the McLoughlins in the '30s, and the McLoughlins are still, let's just say, ardent fans.

It was an amazing thing at the James McLoughlin memorial event to be part of the crowd there that day, Chris, because we had this individual talking about his own grandfather, who he had distinct memories of, probably until the age of 9 or 10. He spent a lot of time with his grandfather when he was a young man. And Bill, I think now is probably in his 70s, perhaps even his 80s. But his grandfather played in the first ever Celtic game. It was amazing. And as Jim said, round his neck, he has the medal which James McLoughlin won at the end of Celtic's first season, the first ever competition, first ever trophy that Celtic won. He still wears the medal around his neck. It was a wonderful moment. When you think of some of the things we've asked some of the fans to phone in with for these history podcasts, you know, about your favorite piece of memorabilia and your earliest memories of Celtic and things like that. To know that there is still something that old out there that a Celtic fan wears around his neck today is just mind-blowing. This is 120 odd years ago.

I remember the first time I saw this, Chris. We're invited to his, he's got a wee flat in the South Side of Glasgow. Bill lives in Ayr. Bill and his lovely wife Eileen live in Ayr. And the first time we're invited to his flat, and he first thing he produces is this scrapbook. You know, we think we know history. We think we've got some fantastic little historical pieces. And he produces this family scrapbook with all the press cuttings, with what happened to James after it. And I'm looking through this, and he said, "Here, you can borrow this, Jim." And I'm, you know, I've got a wee plastic bag with me, thinking he'll walk through the streets of Glasgow with this artifact in a plastic bag. Then he says, "Oh, before you go, I've got something else to show you." And he produces this, and you know, as I say, I was shaken. But, you know, these families, we know that the families have had, the families we've got, the only family we've not managed to get in touch with actually is the Govan family in New York. But, you know, for example, tomorrow, Phil Murray's great-grandson is meeting a couple of Celtic supporters in Bridgeville in Pennsylvania. He's meeting the fans at Phil's grave, where they tend. And a couple of years ago, the lad, Connie, who went to his grave a couple of years ago, and we found it, he tied a Celtic scarf around Phil's headstone. And every year, you know, the family tend the grave and make sure that the scarf is tied tightly around it so it doesn't blow away in any American storm. So the connections, a lot of the connections are silent connections, maybe. But, you know, the connections are just as strong for some of these families as they are for the three of us.

In 1892, the cup was won on soil. The Queen's Park team had no reply. They met with big oil. We celebrated all night long. The Irish won all, saying, "Celtic first and Celtic last and Celtic overall."

[Music]

Since their formation, the progressive Celtic had been at the forefront of change in the Scottish game. And in 1893, the club won its first league championship, a competition they had helped to establish in 1890 in a bid to ensure clubs had more competitive fixtures to play. Little did they know then, but the supporters of this dynamic young club had the privilege to witness in action men who would shape an unbroken sporting legacy which, some 125 years later, would be firmly established among the most iconic names in football.

From that very first team was, of course, Willie Maley, a man whose influence as secretary-manager would last far beyond the remarkable years he spent as a Celt. Then there was the legendary James Kelly, an accomplished centre-half and the man blessed with the honor of being the first ever captain of Celtic. Thanks in no small part to the efforts of John Glass, the capture of the acclaimed Kelly from an established and successful side such as Renton was a significant, even sensational, coup for infant Celtic. It demonstrated to fans and players alike that this was a club with serious on-field ambition. The Kelly factor would certainly prove crucial in enticing other established names to Celtic. As it was later stated, "Not Kelly, no Celtic." Perhaps more pointedly, though, the arrival of Kelly proved that in those days of sheer tribalism, Celtic could rival any club in enticing talent to their ranks. And in that first decade, there was certainly plenty of talent for fans to cheer. Among them was Dan McArthur. Signed in 1892, McArthur was a fearless and athletic performer who would emerge as Celtic's first goalkeeping hero. At the other end of the field was a wonderfully gifted and clever forward, Johnny Campbell. Originally signed in 1890, Campbell spent two spells with the Bhoys, scoring an impressive 109 goals in 215 appearances. A hero boasting different attributes was a brave and bustling Barney Battles. The Springburn-born defender would initially sign for Celtic in 1895. His fearless and committed performances ensured he was among the very first fan favourites. Neil McCallum, Willie O'Neill, and Jimmy Blessington were all early talents cherished by the Celtic support. Then there was Sandy McMahon, the man known as "The Jerk," who played for Celtic from 1891 until 1903, making some 217 appearances and scoring 171 goals. Talented McMahon was an intelligent ball player, good in the air, an under-dribbler, who was equally comfortable at centre-forward or inside-left.

But even these heroes struggled to attain the level of affection reserved for the great Dan Doyle. Pace, bond Doyle had made a name for himself as a left-back in England for various clubs, but most notably Everton. Doyle's first game at Celtic Park had been as a Hibs player in the match with Cowdenbeath on May the 8th, 1888, which marked the opening of the ground. But it would be his return to Parkhead in the summer of 1890 that really created a stir. At that time, Doyle was registered with Everton, where he was club captain and had just lifted the English League Championship trophy. Unbeknownst to the Mercury, Doyle had also accepted terms to play for both Bolton Wanderers and Celtic. During that summer, the player happily collected wages from all three clubs. As a new season approached, to the astonishment of everyone, Doyle moved home to Scotland to sign with the supposedly amateur Celtic. The audacious capture of Doyle was greeted ecstatically by the ever-growing Celtic support, and the crowds flocked to Parkhead to see the prestigious new signing in action. Doyle did not disappoint. A strong and wonderfully two-footed player, he was arguably the best defender of his generation. His perfectly timed tackles thwarted attack after attack, while his pinpoint long passes became a vital weapon in Celtic's attacking armoury. On and off the pitch, there were few players as vocal as Doyle, and he was not afraid to let opponents, teammates, or club officials know his feelings. At one point, he went on strike for more money, missing Celtic's humiliating Scottish Cup defeat to Third Lanark in January 1897 in the process. But for all that, the Celtic fans loved Doyle, and the player's qualities were such that he would become captain of both Celtic and Scotland. It was said of Doyle, "The Celtic faithful had a man who was the embodiment of their own hopes of the time, of rising above the mundane, and remained an independent of soul."

There was certainly nothing mundane about the first decade or so of Celtic Football Club, as the club, now a limited company, stood at the dawn of the 20th century. They could already boast of two Scottish Cup wins.

four league championships, four Glasgow Cup victories, and five Glasgow Charity Cup triumphs.

Sic Park was also home to some of the finest footballers in the game. And in Willie Mey, the club had an astute and ambitious young manager. In 1900, Seltic will claim their third Scottish Cup triumph with the 4-3 victory over Road Foes Queens Park. While the first chapter in the Celtic story have been truly remarkable, it was already clear the pages ahead promised even more excitement and glory.

[Music] will take over all.

[Music] It's actually uh great when you read down through some of the things that uh that started the club. And here we are, you know, on the 27th of May, 2013. And we're going to go and talk about the 28th of May 1888. And just to put a smile on everybody's face, the first game, of course, was against a team called Rangers. And we can actually talk about them being Rangers back in this time. It's a good job I read out a list of defunct teams. I was very tempted to try and slip that in, but I thought I would leave it in this occasion. But here we are. We were playing our first game and it was against the Rangers and a victory for Celtic 5-2. So it started off well and it was to continue the same way for uh the the next hundred years or so.

Well, I mean the story of the first season is quite fascinating, Chris. the first game you have 11 guys thrown together a couple of would have played before. Um Tom Mey was probably the the second major target for Celtic. He was a very high-profile player. He was then turning his attention to a teaching career. Um so Celtic had to work hard uh to get him. The the connection there uh was through um Tom's father who um uh was an associate of an individual called Pat Welsh who was part of St. Mary's Parish in Glasgow. Uh but Mr. Mey senior and Pat Welsh had crossed paths in Dublin um some years before. Um many will know that Willie Mey was born in the the army barracks in Yuri. His father was a a long- serving British soldier. Um in Dublin at that time he uncovered a young guy trying to flee through the docks. Um Pat Welsh um was a fenian. He was wanted. he was leaving Ireland um um basically to get away. U Senior assisted him in that and um he took his family um to Glasgow um some years later and found a connection again with Pat Welsh. Fast forward something like 10-15 years. Pat Welsh is involved with this group of people trying to start up um an Irish Catholic football team in Glasgow. They know that Tom Mey is a significant player. They they head out to visit the Mey family in Kfka. Uh we have Pat Welsh, John Mass, and Brother Walford. Um Mr. Mey Senior's happy to see them. Uh Tom Mey is out quoting as it happens that night. However, his young brother Willie is there and Willy's played football. He's reasonably well known. Um the parting shot from brother Walford after they've made the arrangement to meet up with Tom Millie is um will you know come along as well. And of course, Willy Milly did come along and um started an association with Celtic, which lasted formally for a good 52 years, but of course has endured um right through to yesterday when his name was being chanted in the stands at Hampton Park.

Absolutely an amazing family connection with both Willie and Tom Mey. Um and again, you know, Willie wasn't considered to be um the main target even between the brothers. Um but Tom went on to serve in committees for a number of years. Was massive Celtic supporter through his writings in the Glasgow press as well. But of course Willie stamped his authority all over Celtic football club in the first five decades. And the the team were were pretty successful from the get-go when we when we look at the the uh years that we're talking about here from 1888 up to 1900. During those tw let's say 12 years, Celtic won 15 major trophies and a few sort of lesserk known trophies into the bargain. Uh just again to to give everybody we a we bite of what happened during those years. They were league champions on four occasions. They won the Scottish Cup twice. They won the Glasgow Cup four times and they won the Glasgow Charity Cup five times. And they were the main trophies that were up for grabs at that stage. So that was a hall of 15 trophies in a matter of 12 years. That's not a bad record for a team just coming into the league. And we also lost three Scottish Cup finals. You know, it was the preeminent competition. We lost the Scottish Cup final in our first year. You know, completely unheard of. Third Lanarch beat us in the first Scottish Cup final after a dubious replay obviously, but you know, we get into the Scottish Cup final in the first year. It was massively significant. And then we showed that, you know, we won the Scottish Cup in 1892, which was a massive event in the east end of Glasgow. Beating Queens Park, you know, who were the preeminent Scottish team with whom we had a number of battles at that time. Uh, but beating Queens Park really showed that uh that these upstarts from Celtic had arrived and were here to stay. We then lost another couple of Scottish Cup finals before winning it again in 1889 just before the the turn of the new millennia.

But in the meantime, you know, the Scottish League had not only started, Chris, but the Scottish League was was something that we were fundamentally important to the foundation of. Uh and that's as well as winning the cups, as well as winning the league. Uh Celtic set out to change the Scottish game. Uh and Celtic were active. Celtic didn't sit back and just play football. Celtics saw that they they had in order for the club to be not just successful but to be preeminent they had to be involved in all of the decision making and they had to force other club's hand on some very very unpopular issues such as the league such as professionalism uh and you know the and we absolutely drove that change forward. So that first match in 1888 was important in setting the club going, but it would have been meaningless if we'd have gone the way of all of those other defunct clubs and quietly gone out of business. We didn't and we made sure we were at the forefront of change in the Scottish game and that was so important.

Why do you say it was unpopular for the formation of the Scottish League? The opponent, the main opponent to that was Queens Park. Queens Park were the most successful Scottish team of the era, you know, one of the most successful British teams. Uh, and of course they were and still are amateurs. Uh, and rightly the Queens Park saw that the uh, the formation of a Scottish league may lead to more professionalism. Celtics saw that as absolutely necessary uh because without professionalism we continue or we would lose players to England uh despite being formed uh by the temperance movement despite you know many of our founding fathers being involved in the temperance movement we had to find ways to pay players and one of the ways we found to pay players the similar amounts to what they earned in England was by giving them pubs you know dand Doyle, Sandy McMahon, Johnny Campbell, uh McMone were all given pubs. Some of them uh some of them fell fell prey to the the demon drink as well, but you know, we had to find a way to pay players. And we were then at the forefront not just of the Scottish League and of opposing Queens Park's position. and Queens Park were almost seen as the Scottish club where we were they were the preeminent Scottish club and we were the pre-minent Irish club after the decline of Hibs. But when the league started uh we won that battle and then we won the battle in 1893 for professionalism so that we could actually have a professional Scottish league to compete with the English teams. Uh and you know we made sure that we did compete when you know we uh the capture of Dan Doyle in 1891 from Everton again was a massive event. You know Everton one of massively successful teams I think they just won the league. Yeah. Uh they just won the league in England and here was this upstart team from Scotland coming and taking one of their best players Dan Doyle. Uh we did the same when English teams tried to take our players. we would sometimes physically go and get the players from the signing talks and escort them back home. Uh you know the it was so important to us to keep our players and if that meant going in raiding parties to England to get players that's what we would do but if it meant fighting battles at home against the Scottish football establishment that's what we did as well. And it was massively important to the club that we fought and that we won those battles.

And the the club, as you said earlier on, was had had the great foresight whenever they were looking at Celtic Park and somewhere to to hold the games. And the foresight they had was to build a stadium that was bigger than what they ever expected a crowd to fill at that stage. But the crowds just keep kept on coming. Well, you're absolutely right, Chris, because the founding fathers had an idea that the the support was there. You know, they saw how well supported Hibs were from the Glasgish community. And when Hibs won the Scottish Cup in 1887, that was a record attendance of 15,000. When Celtic appeared in the cup final uh in 1889, that attendance record increased to 17,000. When we won the cup in 1892, the attendance was more than double the previous record at 40,000. So there was an absolute wellspring of support there for this new football club um from the the wider Glasgow Irish community. Um the Celtic view back in the early 70s interviewed a gentleman called Dan Dan Drake and_{\text{ }} Dan um was uh at the early Celtic games in the 1890s and he lived a long life and he was asked um how it was he thought Celtic were so popular and he said um his father had no interest at all in sport or football but he felt it was necessary to go along and support this this new Irish team and that is how the Drake family um effectively became Celtic supporters and we know that Dan Drake himself was heavily involved in Irish politics in Scotland throughout his life as well. So again there's a there's a connection there between uh social identity politics and sport which Celtic and the founding fathers absolutely nailed.

Credit to Habernian. Habernian had already been through um terrible experiences trying to get established in Scotland. They were initially refused membership of SFA because they were an Irish club. Their players were refused Scottish cats because they were considered Irish although they were they were Scottishborn. Hernian fought a lot of the early battles. They certainly made it easier for Celtic to come through. Um however, I would always challenge the assertion that Celtic destroyed Hernian. Hiburnian were fortunate and Hiburnian were very crafty in the way in which they've gone about getting players from the other Irish teams in Scotland and Celtic effectively followed their methods and were just better at it and more successful.

Yeah. But but we also we had to fight some internal battles as well Chris and uh uh which you know me to his credit uh was was largely responsible for me is such a huge figure but in 1897 uh when me became our first official team manager when we you know it was seen that even you know 10 years into our foundation that the selection of a team by committee was just anacronistic and that the governing the governance of the club by committee uh was no longer sustainable. So in 1897 we became a a private limited company and the board of directors replaced the the committee which had which had previously dominated the fairs. So you know we had to fight those external battles but uh you know we had to change from within too and to mey's credit and the credit of the founding fathers Walford by this time had gone Walford's was in Celtic until 1892 when he was then transferred to London perhaps because of his popularity. Uh so Walford was sent away uh and set up uh uh other sporting institutions in the east end of of of London. But you know so Walford's influence was certainly there and was massive in the first four or five years of the club. But after that others certainly came to the four.

[Music] too. We seek him here. We seek him there never to find is very rare. You can go to any single country in the world and you'll find dedicated followers Celtic. Yes, you can Celtic memory. Well, my first memory of Celtic was my father told Jimmy Johnson the school and he said that's Jy boy. I said who's junky with the famous until a few years later I went to Bhead and saw the famous Canada, you'll find them. You never hate his colors cuz these colors they don't run cuz he's a dedicated Celtic. The f come home from the work in the shipyards be a Saturday afternoon. become a football focus and seeing on the TV football being played and my parents were self and that started the involvement. told from a very early age part of my life throughout the years. We've had our times nine in a row with fast wine.

Your earliest Celtic memory? My earliest Celtic memory would be being about six in about 1978-79 and my dad buying me a Celtic jersey. I was born and brought up in the southwest of England and uh I remember not in a forest winning the European Cup and being in the European Cup fin. I remember saying right it's my team I follow Nan Forest they're my team and my dad taking me and my brother to one side and saying you you you can follow N forest if you want but if you choose to follow them now you have to always follow them because you can't just follow the team that wins all the time you have to follow a team for a reason. So I said to him, "Well, who should I follow then if not N and Forest then? They're the best team." He said, "Well, I follow Celtic and your grandfather and your uncle and all your uncles and aunts and cousins and grandfathers and grandfathers." So he bought me a Celtic jersey and I've been stuck with it ever since.

[Music] It's very rare. You can go to any single country in the world and you'll find dedicated followers of Celtics. Yes, you'll find dedicated followers of Celtic. Yeah, you'll find dedicated followers of [Music] Celtic.

As Celtic supporters, we're all very aware about the charitable nature of the club. And you know we can we can summarize in two three sentences about you know the club was set up and the you know in Glasgow for the Irish poor and it was to to generate money to feed people but then you had this PLC getting formed within as you say 10 years of the establishment of the club. So did the whole attitude of charity change at that stage? No in fact not at all Chris. I mean what happened from perhaps 2 or 3 years in you had an absolute battle for the soul of Celtic um and the battle lines were firmly drawn and there was a lot of casualties. The first main casualty was uh Dr. John Conway who we mentioned earlier. Um he and John Glass were particularly close friends. Um but uh Dr. Conway objected to the fact that officials within the within the club started to get paid around about 1890-1891. He therefore challenged John Glass for the presidency. He lost um he was effectively forced out the club and then over the course of the next five or 6 years you have a series of battles at the um six monthly general meetings. Some of them went on five-6 hours. Um the Glasgow Irish newspapers covered them in detail. Um the accusations were were really quite horrendous in on all sides, you know. Um those who continued to favor um that the monies continued to be donated to the dinner tables, they were written off as dinner table soreheads and uh soup kitchen cranks. Uh the other sides were referred to as as Jim's already alluded to. um you know the fact that the the early committee members, senior individuals um a lot of them ended up in the pub game as well and so were to an extent you know were taking advantage of the fact that they had developed connections through Celtic and so they were derided as at one point as um six publicans in a glass.

In Celtic's first year they raised £330 for Catholic charities. It's a phenomenal amount in 1888. Um but the division came over um the decision to reduce and then finally stop donations to the poor children's dinner table particularly and on the one hand um on Conway's side you had a lot of the um the active supporters who were members um of the the league um it was the temperance organization who objected to the fact as did some high-profile clergy in Glasgow to Celtics association with the players and the board members the committee members with pubs at that time as well. Um because the the the first Celtic um supporters club, the first break club started in St. Mary's in 1890. Um and again you know very much in with the support of the parish priest on the basis that it was a a non-drinking organization and um the parish priest um over in Bridgemond Sacred Heart um which was the the second parish that effectively Celtic was founded to support where Wilfford was based was very much opposed um and very aware of the the damage that drink had done in that community. Um and as said six monthly these battles would reach to and fro um and then effectively um the the people who were to form the board which included James Kelly um Joseph Shaughnessy the lawyer Willie Mey as well. Tom Mey was in the opposite side for a number of years. They effectively won the vote um to have a limited company for the monies to be directed from charity towards the building of Celtic Park so that they could take they could hold international events. they could hold athletic events to making more profit from that. And so within 10 years, the direction of the club definitely changed.

So do you think the attitude changed as well from the the local people that had been supporting Celtic up to that time? What would their attitude have been to see this move from a charity organization to a PLC? Well, I think it was, you know, Paul quoted the attendances and I think there's your answer there. You know, it it was a source, you know, it was a source of massive pride for the community. You know, here you had a diseased, povertyridden community, but you also had a a a community whose very souls were were being sucked out of them. And here you had an an organization, a sporting organization which was based in the heart of their community, which was giving them a massive source of pride. And that community absolutely supported that through thick and thin. Uh and you know the club made profits, the club you know went in a in a professional direction but as I said earlier it ensured not just the club's survival but it ensured their success which was massively important to that Irish community. Uh and of course as with all immigrant uh communities the Irish community itself started to change. you know, there was a development of of an Irish middle class. Uh the Irish community gradually moved out uh of uh of the areas and the salt market, Gallagh etc. gradually over the years. uh but they've done so in the knowledge that they had been part of the founding of this massively successful football club. Not just in Glasgow terms, not just in Scottish or British terms, but in world terms too. You know, it was when you look at, as I'm sure you'll touch on in some later podcast, some of the Celtics uh early tours. And we were a massively influential club. And we did that because some really really tough decisions were taken. Uh and those decisions were taken to ensure our success. But it was absolutely supported by the community at the time uh you know there were some tough tough debates at the time but as Paul said when you look at the attendances uh it was absolutely supported by that community.

But there was two clear breakaways as well during the first 10 years. Christopher, the first one was as early as 18 months in when an attempt was made to start a new team called Glasgow Habernian um whose ground was just the first to the gobles in the south side of the river. Um some Celtic players left to join it as well. It failed to make any headway. Crucially they couldn't attract the crowds and ultimately when that decision was taken in 1897 to to effectively move from a committee to a board to become a private company in effect um that year Celtic won uh the third league title under Willy Millie. Um so of course they were able to persuade the majority of the support that this is why there had to be a change in approach uh whereby charity was less important until supposedly they got their house in order. And indeed there's arguments to be made uh either way in terms of how that played out over the next 30-40 years. uh the people who supported the board right through to the till the early to mid '90s um always maintained that there was always a strong charitable dimension to Celtic you know um some of us would maintain it was always a support who drove the charitable dimension and I think that's been obvious again the last four or five years so that there's arguments to be made it's an absolutely fascinating period in Celtics history and um there seems to be when part of discussions come up in this in some of the big forums So, a lot of people are interested in it and a lot of people like to find out more about it as well.

Well, when you you remember back to the '90s and the turmoil there was at the club then, when you compare that to what was actually going on in the first 12 years of the club, what what what was happening in the '90s was nothing.

[Music] Yeah, we're certainly we're well versed in the art of argument and debates. With a fourleaf clover on my breast and the green and white upon my chest. It's such a joy for us to see football. The very first Celtic shirt to be worn by the players. It's a far cry from the green and white hoop shirt that is synonymous with our club today. To paraphrase a quote by Willie Millie from his book, The Story of the Celtic, in reference to her original shirt, he says, "The color Celtic wore that day were white shirts with a green collar. On the left breast was a simple green Celtic cross sitting on top of a red oval background. This shirt was accompanied by black shorts and socks with emerald green and black hoops. On another note, the shirts were long sleeved which could be fastened by a tie up on the chest. This strip was worn till 1889 before a new design was introduced. This design was green and white vertical stripes. Up until 1900, the green and white vertical striped shirt was worn with a variance of black and white shorts and socks. from 1887 to 1900. It's worth noting that Celtic didn't use any away kits and it would still be a few years yet before we would see Celtic in the hoops. for us to see.

[Music] B what's really marvelous about it is that even with all this strife on and off the pitch, uh the quality of the players that Celtic were able to develop and and put out in the team was still that flamboyant, romantic type of player. And when you look at some of the names that played in the in the in this first decade that we're talking about, you know, the the wheels were set in motion for a style of play that would continue throughout the history. Absolutely. Because um what you have from more or less the first second season in Celtic are getting plaudits for the attacking nature of their game. you know, um, interestingly, in some areas they're being slightly derided for, um, not being a particularly strong team, you know, putting all the emphasis more or less on skill and attacking football. Um, but it's something that paid off from very early on because when they weren't winning trophies, they were still gathering in more and more support. And effectively what what happened over 10-15 years was all those Irish teams and they were definitely Irish teams um in Scotland at the time um it was they stuck it like a sore thumb you know they would be wearing green and white jerseys and all green jerseys but even having hibi and shamlock in your name made you stand out you you'd be a lot of battles in a lot of different areas literature over to the east as well as said hibs fought a lot of those battles supporters were notorious um back in the 1870s and 1880s and for having to fight um at a way grounds, you know, because of course you have a crowd of Irishmen going along to see their team and there would always be resistance to it and a lot of the mining communities in in Glasgow and beyond as well. Um but effectively what happens Chris is Celtic get bigger and bigger more and more supporters and they take away the support from all those smaller teams. So um my family originally um settled finally settled after being in the 1840s and 50s settled in Laner in the village of Kin and my great great great grandfather was born in 1887 the same year as Celtic um initially they would have been Ken Shamrock supporters there's any doubt about that um some of the first players were for Celtic players came from Ken Shamrock as well um Celtic played Ken Shamrock in the Scottish cup in 1892 Shamrock drew at Celtic Park, took them out to KFIN for a replay which they narrowly lost. But within a generation um the people who supported Kin um had set up their own supporters club um and were regularly traveling to games and the training um and of course you know places like Kin, Croy, Courtridge who used to all have their own Irish teams and to a large extent you could say um Hernian as well through Edinburgh. I think there are there are three Celtic supporters clubs in the le area alone still today. um we still draw support from not just these areas within Scotland but of course uh from England and increasingly um after Belfast Celtics demise and various other factors we draw huge support from Ireland as well at that time.

Uh, what was Glasgow like you're saying there about fans going away from home and you know uh experienced some some trouble when they went to follow Celtic. Was Glasgow did Glasgow still have that uh huge sectarianism? You know, you had the Clyde and the shipyards and the fundamental workingclass Protestantisms um that were very present at the time. Did did that filter into the football at that stage as well?

Well, I mean, it's interesting. Celtics's first actual competition uh was an exhibition cup which took place at Kelvin Groves. That's beside the museum and the art gallery now at Glasgow University in the West End. Uh Celtic. So it was not long after the first game against Rangers. Celtic made it all the way through to the final against Calers and we know from the newspaper reports at the time Celtic players were disgusted at the treatment from the Partisan crowd and of course it's a brand new team. So as far as they were concerned, the only reason for animosity since they'd never played these other teams before it was the fact that they were an Irish team. Um and John Glass vowed at that point privately he he made the vow public when Celtic finally won the Scottish Cup um that the club were driven forward by some of the animosity that they experienced in those early days. Um but I mean interestingly I say like hips as well um they were well supported. Um there's not much I think there's no evidence I don't think of any crowd um in the first few years you know um unlike by the time you get to 1921 I think Celtic go for a league title decider against Morton and Guinuk and there was an absolute riot that day and it was sectarian in nature and a lot of people were badly injured. Celtic won one nil, won the league. Um but by all accounts um some of the scenes and cleanup that day were horrendous. Um the rivalry with Rangers of course is central to some of this as well. Um the rivalry really seems to kick off in the 1890s and because before then there's a strong argument to suggest that Celtic sorry that the Rangers were not a big team. They've never won the Scottish Cup in the first two decades, which is why that trophy that we won yesterday, Chris, the name of Rangers, doesn't feature on it because the the names of the first 20 teams are all engraved on the trophy. Everybody who's come after that only get the name and the shield at the bottom of the trophy on the plenth. Yep. Uh-huh. Yeah. So, so Rangers, they were reasonably well supported, but they had no great success, but after Celtic win the successive titles in the mid 1890s, Rangers won the last two in 1899, 1900. Of course, they won they jointly won the first league title with Dumbartton. But for that first decade, Celtic were effectively the pre-minent team in Scotland. We're the only team to have won three league titles outright. We were the biggest supported team as well. So within 10 years these men had established the biggest institution they were making bringing in more crowd receipts than any team in the whole of Britain at that point too.

And what sort of prize money would you have got for winning the Scottish Cup or the Scottish League at that time? Any ideas? Don't know if there was any prize money. I'm not sure that there was any prize money actually Chris. Um I I've not a lot of the newspaper reports at the time talk about um the receipts from the crowd being quite significant. And in effect for the first I think for the first 15-20 years of Celtic it's often reported how much money came in at the gate which of course you know you wouldn't want the club preveing any of the clubs real that nowadays but in terms of actual prize money I've never seen any but also you know we had we had a style of play but the players that uh that we attracted to the club a lot of them were absolutely committed to the cause for playing for this Glasgow Irish team they came from in that community and they were absolutely determined that it it would be successful once they threw their uh their hat in with Celtic then it was certainly there to stay. uh and you know whilst the the founding fathers and the community itself uh were strongly linked with the uh the Irish nationalist movement a lot of the players were too uh and a lot of the players would would appear at rallies uh Irish national rallies and you know a lot of the players from the the treatment Paul mentioned you know it made them even more determined for the success of this club uh they weren't shrinking violets there was an occasion in uh 1897 I think uh when uh three of the players were so outraged at what had been written in the press in the the Scottish referee uh which was a a journal of the time uh that they uh that they announced that they weren't going to take the field and I think it was the match against Hibs they said no we're not playing unless you remove that journalist from the the press box willy me refused Bailey uh was absolutely uh a disciplinarian a cast iron disciplinarian. He refused uh and Peter Makin, John Divers and Barney Battles went and strike or summarily sacked from the club. Barney went to Dundee. Uh Johnny Divers and Peter Makin went to Everton. Uh and a year later Johnny Divers and Barney came back. Barney went on to be a hugely popular figure uh until his early death in in 1905. Uh he was so popular, you know, we we talk about the uh the recent funeral curtages of of Jenke and and Tommy Burns, you know, were 40,000 lined the route from from Bridton to Dal Beth Cemetery or 2,000 in in Barney's Cottage. Uh and you know, it's because this guy was seen as as the embodiment of Celtic, you know, it was an extension uh of of the support and you know, they weren't afraid to uh to let that be known. So, you know, even in the early days, we had a a few runins with the members of the the Scottish press corp. Uh which is which is also nice to see some consistency. You was live even then. He looks like it's all Yeah.

Favorite memorabilia. My favorite would be my signed repa 67 shirt that I wore when I went to the 45th anniversary in Vegas. Oh, and just the experience to be surrounded with the legends. Obviously, it was 2007, right? and and to meet David and to sing big fantastic Lennox and all. My favorite bit of memorabilia is passed in with my dad, right? It was a a signed a signed record for those that don't know about CDs, but this is a record and it was a Glenn Daily signed Celtic songs record. A record. Right. There you go. still got I will pass on to young Thomas. Thomas. Brilliant. Which he thinks is a pizza. What is your favorite piece of Celtic memorability? The program for my first of our old fun games which we just happened to win 5-1. Fantastic. So that's my favorite. Superb. And you remember the day to this day? Of course. Were you there with the famous HS Mr. H? Your father. Yes, I was. Yes. He took care of you. Perfectly. Excellent. And you survived completely sober the whole game to look after me. Outstanding. Paul, yourself. I've got the semi-final of the 1972 European Cup League United. Yes. Yes. That's in my possession. And it's all intact. It's intact. It's in my loft somewhere. If I go up, I'm sure I'll find it. I have four pieces of memorabilia. I have one which is Bill McNeil lifting the big cups. I signed canvas. Second, second one is Larsson's Last Game as a canvas, right? My third one is my big comedy sombrero from Seville. And my fourth piece is the uh William Yansen team signed shirt that's in my office. Fantastic. So, you're someone who actually made it back with stuff. Managed to get back home stuff. I actually bought stuff from people. What's your favorite piece of Celtic memorabilia? I don't know if it's you call it memorabilia, but it's got to be the socks. It's going to be the socks. Explain. Everybody knows about the socks. Explain to the listeners the socks. The bumby socks. The bumby socks worn at Celtic Park. Peter Grant's testimonial. By whom? Me. By you. On the pitch. On the playing in the testimonial match with the Bumblebee socks on. Bumblebee strip. Earlier I used to keep all my ticket stubs for all games. Ticket stubs. Put them in your sock drawer where you keep everything. Right. Uh-oh. Don sock drawer out. All this rubbish in the bin. Bin man comes. Gone. Gone. History. History wiped out with one mad cleaning woman. Oh my tickets. Sorry. These tickets I had got tickets. your favorite piece of Celtic memorabilia. I spoke to you before we come in there, Richard. My my favorite piece is my season ticket. For for any person who's got a season ticket, every time it's renewed and you walk in the first time and use it, that's your memorabilia.

So we we look at the four main areas of how this club was established and and probably the identity of Celtic itself when we talk about charity and culture and religion and politics. And as the decade uh grew on uh towards 1900 we could boast some of the some of the best and most popular players at the time as well. Who were the main heroes for the fans uh in the in those first 12 years? Who were the guys that everybody wanted to be when they played football on the street? Uh where where do you start? There's there's loads of them. Loads of them. Uh you know, top goal scorer. Sandy McMahon. How many years? Paul was seven out of the first 10 years. Sandy McMahon was Celtic's top scorer. Yeah. The Duke uh who again was was a publican also as well as a player. Uh so Sandy McMahon was was absolutely you know huge figure. Uh there were the popular figures uh who were defenders you know Celtic popular Celtic defenders. That's one thing that has changed Battles as I said was massively popular. Dan Doyle you know the Wild Rover you know good big goodlook lad. He was taken from Everton. He was a massively successful figure. Played for Scotland. this uh young Irish lad. He was one of the groundbreers who who managed to get into the Scottish team and you know he was he was fated you know as I say he was uh he was almost seen as a a gentleman b so you know there was Dan Doyle uh there was the you know Kelly of course was a rock and these guys were were also being capped by Scotland more in fact you know there was a match where Scotland played Ireland uh at Celtic Park and willing Mey himself was captain. It was rumored that Celtic had more players in the team that day to to ensure a a decent crowd turned out at Celtic Park. Uh but the players were being recognized internationally. Uh and you know the we also took back we transferred Johnny Campbell uh from Aston Villa. There was a time when Sandy who was it was trying to take Sandy Austin as well. So there was this massive battle with the English teams constantly going on for our best players. Uh and people like Sandy Hy Madden, Tom Meley who would eventually become a very successful manager at Manchester City. I think he won the league and cup double with Manchester City and he's still revered in Man City's history. So you know there were loads of them Chris. absolutely loads of them at that at that time. Uh and when you look back, you know, we we had a conversation earlier that it it's the one thing when you look at our history, you know, none of the uh the greatest ever Celtic team came from that era. In fact, I don't think there were any pre 1967. Well, Mcgru, I think Jimmy Mcgory, didn't he make a team? So one of the things that that we enjoy doing is to is to try and sort of talk a we bit more about some of these guys and Paul mentioned the name earlier who had scored our winning goal in the the league Sunday Davidson. I'd never heard of the guy. Yeah. I never heard them. And for us, it's really really important why I'm so grateful to you for giving us the opportunity to actually talk about about some of these figures because they were massive figures in Celtics history and they were massive figures to Celtic supporters uh of of that time.

Well, the only reason they asked you the question was to hear you two getting excited there.

[Music] We've had a number of ceremonies for these guys as well. Uh and you know the the Sandy McMahon ceremony was it it was just a joy an absolute joy to see the McMahon family from well it they came from all over the world and I'll I'll never forget that day you know the the sun shone eventually in fact we had two ceremonies when the the family put up their own headstone too but to hear the uh the passion with which not just the family spoken you know the pride being the descendants of Sandy McMahon, but the passion with which David Porter spoke about just how great a player Sandy McMahon was and just how much color he brought to people's lives in a very very dark time. So, you know, so we like to talk about them, but there are others as well who I think absolutely recognize just how vital these guys were to the foundation of Celtic and they were loved. They were attacking figures. They were larger than life figures. And that meant that they were loved in the way that Celtics Celtics players always have been.

I think the crucial ingredient that was the keystone to Celtic success the fact that they had this um hardcore support from very early on who started forming great clubs. It's it's arguable that Celtic introduced the concept of a weed day travel to football because the the Celtic break clubs would regularly get trains booked go and see Celtic play all over Scotland. That had never really been done before. But the thing that stood out about the Celtic support as early as the 1890s was how committed they were. So in 1891 the the magazine that Jim referred to earlier the Scottish referee one of the two leading um sports and football magazines in Scotland at the time they said of the the Celtic support the Celtic are blessed with having a following that simply defy the elements whose enthusiasm for the club is never lukewarm. So those would be the guys who'd be happily rioting at D Park way back in the the 1900s if necessary all in the name of having a good time. But through some dark times that were to come for Celtic um their support never wavered and I think you know um that's the real key to success.

So that's a lovely place to leave this first installment. We've looked at what Glasgow was like at the time of the formation of the club. We've talked about some of the politics behind the establishment of the club and why the club was put in place. But it's nice to see that even within 10-12 years, how much there is to talk about with Celtic in such in such a short period of time. And when we we look at this series that we're going to do for the history of the club uh from from way back in 1887 right up to 2013. If we get 10 episodes with as much juicy gossip to talk about as the first 12 years, I'm sure it'll be very good listening for all the uh all the people that tune into the podcast. Thanks for giving us a chance to come on and talk about them. uh there I know that as I say it's always it's a continuing voyage of discovery and just being able to find out more about these guys who are the inspiration for the generations to come is is a source of continuing pleasure for me. I think it's just the the opportunity that we have an an excuse probably for trade spotters like ourselves to be able to go back and read all these books again and and go over it all and you know have excuses to our wives and girlfriends and children and all the rest for sitting up and up to 2:00 in the morning going well you know Chris homework and look at the display you know the display you know 1888 we have a big banner of Walford you know that and that you know the the lads who organized that. I I have no idea who it was who organized it. I think the Green Brigade were behind it. But you know, it's stunning. And that shows just how important those early days were to Celtic. And to see that banner there 125 years later, to see that display and the four numbers 1888 was it's great. It really, you know, you end up getting far too emotional about these things. But pointing out to my lad just how important that was is one of the things that make this such a special club. Look, see the J Blaze and the Paul McQue and the Brandons and all the rest of you boys involved in the Celtic grave society. You've affected everybody because now when we're we're we see special numbers, we go, "Oh, wait a minute. I can relate that back to Celtic." I was sitting tonight, you know, having a last little SWAT at some of the uh some of the facts and figures and I'm going, my god, 125 years ago, tomorrow was the first game, you know, and you you be sitting there at the dinner table, you know, and you you sort of you throw something like that out to the kids and they look at you as you have two heads. They're like, "Is this all you've got? Is this everything?" I think you can imagine what the reaction would have been in the Drake household if Dan's father says to him like we're going to I think because I think they were from Mary Hill. We're going to travel across the city tomorrow. We're going to go to this place. We've never been before. It's

a football ground. Uh, we're going to support this team called the Celtic, and we'll see how it takes hold. And then 90 years on, almost, Dan's given an interview in the Celtic view about what it was like following Celtic in the 1890s. Of course, some of us struggle to remember what it was like in the 1990s.

No, it's absolutely right. It's, it's brilliant. It's like, it's like learning everything all over again. But there is so much to discover, Chris. That's the great thing, you know. I think we've probably all been surrounded by books in the last couple of weeks, by visits to the, the Celtic wiki, some of the other pages on the, uh, the early players. Uh, and there's so much to discover. You know, we set out there was a thread in Gaddale Street looking for the site of the original St. Mary's Hall in the Carlton. And I think Paul started the thread, and I think in 2010, and it took us, it took three years for the search to actually come to fruition, to to actually find out what the first, what the St. Mary's Hall was. Uh, so there is so much out there, but the great thing is that there are loads of people who are interested in their history. Uh, and it's a living history, and that's the great thing.

I'm only doing it to, uh, actually find out all the half-truths and the lies that my daddy told me. [Laughter] Not saying I love against you. What he said was right. I know. I tell you what, he told it in a more romantic way anyway, so I'm going with his version.

L, thanks very much. This was, uh, absolutely superb. So, it was, um, when when we came up with this idea, and, uh, I know Jim, I lifted the the phone and called you about about four or five weeks ago, and you told me I was crackers at the time. Uh, it's, it's brilliant to actually be here doing this as the first recording of the history of the club. And I'll tell you, it's so fascinating. And we're, we're going to ask for donations for the podcast. And for each of the the guys that come on, um, we're going to donate all the money that we raise to hopefully 10 charities. And, uh, we'll divide that equally amongst all the all the suggestions. And here we are, 125 years later, and we're still trying to raise money and, uh, donate them to a good cause, and something that that is very close to the heart of all Celtic supporters. I can't thank you enough. This was probably one of the toughest ones to do because there was so much history and so much to get out there to get the ball rolling, and lodges were absolutely tremendous. Thank you so much. Thank you Tess. It was a pleasure. Thank you mate. Much appreciated.

So, I'm asking all the the guests that come on, uh, to nominate one charity, and lad is is there any particular charity that's close to your heart that you would like to have included in the series? We are going to be auctioning, uh, or raffling, actually, uh, so everybody can have access to a ticket. Uh, we're going to be raffling a very special Celtic shirt, and it was a Celtic shirt that was worn on the the drama performance on the, uh, the 125th anniversary mass on November the 6th. Uh, and the theater, the drama group behind it, uh, was the arch dasis of Glasgow arts project, and they put in huge amount of work, uh, to that project behind the scenes, uh, and they're a group who are funded, uh, uh, with a a tiny, tiny budget, uh, and I know just how much they put into that project, uh, and the projects which tried to bring alive Celtic's early history dramatically. Uh, so anything that is raised, uh, for our portion of this would like to go to the arts dasis of Glasgow's arts project.

Superb, and I can't think of a more appropriate type of charity to kick things off, lads. That's absolutely tremendous. I mean, thanks again, Chris. Thanks for all your help, and sorry for giving you all that homework. A pleasure. I just want to make sure that he doesn't take my books home here. Never mind that. What about the scrapbook in the plastic bag? That had to go back. I'm going to check what he's got around his neck now, actually.

So, there you go. That's the end of chapter one. That was great fun. Absolutely great fun. So, as I said at the start of the podcast, we were initially going to put this up on iTunes and charge everybody 50p or a pound, but iTunes wanted to charge us nearly $50 a chapter. So, that would have been $500. And we just thought that the charities that were going to get involved would make better use of that $500 more than iTunes. So, go to heelhemedia.com, follow the links for the Celtic History podcast, and you'll be able to donate there either through PayPal or all major credit cards. No one associated with the podcast or involved in the podcast has asked for one single penny. So there'll be nobody's wages to pay. There'll be no royalties to pay. All the money collected will go to the 10 charities. And at the end of the series, we'll divide that all up and present it to them in the Celtic way.

So special thanks go to Jim Ble and Paul McQuade from the Celtic Grave Society, who have covered chapter 1, 1887 to 1900. But there was a lot of other people involved in the making of this podcast. And I would just like to thank the Human Torpedo from Celtic Underground, Chris Kuyava from the Paradise Report, Stuart McDonald from the Celtics.co.uk, all the guys over at the Celtic wiki, Gary from the Bristol Celtic Supporters Club, Richard from the Carluke Shamrock Supporters Club, Kelly from Stonehouse, Josh Gaffne for the fantastic artwork, and Harper for helping me with the wave of design. And special thanks of course goes to Charlie and the boys and the wakes for providing the music, and again, nobody asks for a penny in return. Absolutely fantastic, lodge, and very much appreciated.

So I hope you enjoyed all that. Chapter 2 will be available on Friday, June the 14th, and our special guest will be Harry Brady from the Celtic Underground, and we'll be covering the period 1900 to 1919. We hope to have a new chapter every Friday throughout the summer. And on each of the podcasts, we'll announce who the next guest is, just to keep the mystery going. So remember, anybody that wants to contribute any audio bites, as you heard on this episode, it's not too late. Record them on your iPhone, record them on your computer, record them on your voice recorder, and email them to lost@gmail.com. So whether it's your favorite Celtic player, whether it's your favorite Celtic moment, your favorite Celtic memory, doesn't matter as long as it's Celtic related. And if you're brave enough, you might even submit your Celtic confession. What's a Celtic confession? I think that's a good way to end chapter one. My name is Chris McWagen. You're listening to the Celtic History podcast. Chapter 2 will be available on June 14th, 2013. Talk to you all there.

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One of my favorite memories as a Celtic supporter was the night that we beat Boavista. I was sitting in my pal's house, and my wedding was coming up. It was still a month or two away, but we're sitting watching the game, and we're saying, "Wouldn't it just be magic if we could get to this final? It would just be fantastic." And then it dawned on us that I was getting married two days after the final, and we said to ourselves, well, how if we win the night, how we going to do it? How's my wife feeling? How's she going to feel about me saying, two days before the wedding, by the way, I'm off to Seville. And you know, and we pondered it, and we pondered it, and we pondered it. And she says, "Oh no, we couldn't do it. We could do it. How are we going to do it?" And then, as the night wore on, we me and me worried, you know, we're not going to win. It's no going to happen. It was a pipe dream anyway. What does it matter? We were unlucky. And then bang, the goal is in. And we were there that night, ecstatic. And I'm telling you, we were on the phone right away, on the internet, booking the flights, scouring for tickets. And there we were, two days before my wedding in Seville, with all my pals, or their wives, or their girlfriends. The only person we left behind was my then to be wife, Fiona, who was still planning the wedding two days up before we go, and promising and asking and pleading me people, "Will you please put sun tan lotion on him to show he's don't let Bishia be for the wedding photos?" A fantastic time. Great memories with a great team. Just, oh, just fantastic times.

Confession time. In the supermarket, I always put the Rangers birthday cake at the back of the shelf and display the Celtic one at the front. Eddie White, Celtic Supporters Club in Norway, originally from Belfast. My first ever Celtic match, November 1970. I'll never forget it. Things weren't great in Belfast at that time. It was the year of the invasion of Short Strand, the false road curfew, Catholic workers being forced out of the shipyard. Bernadette Devlin had been in prison for four, six months and released again. And the whole week before we were due to head off for the match, Ardoyne was under siege. Three and four nights of intensive rioting. But as we all piled in that old banger with Mad driving, what hadn't occurred in the world? And when we crossed the border at Newry, and Mad said what he always said, "Breathe it in, lads. That's the smell of freedom." And we did. We sat in the back seat and we breathed it in. And when we got to Waterford and into the ground, and the place was absolutely bunged, and there was, I don't know, 40 to 50,000 supporters there singing Celtic songs, waving the flag, and then Willie Wallace scored after like half a minute or something, and ended up getting a hat-trick, and this was a team with seven to eight Lisbon Lions in it, and the new up and cominging lads as well. And the final result was like 7 nil. And with the songs ringing around the ground, and the flags being waved, and nobody having a cur in the world, we just thought, "This is it. We're in heaven."

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