Transcription
Why are more and more Muslims around the world reporting vivid dreams and visions about Jesus? And when Jesus comes to you 30 nights in a row, that gets your attention? Could it be a sign of something bigger, something supernatural that's happening in the Muslim world?
Tom Doyle is the author of Dreams and Visions. And today we're going to talk with Tom about these mysterious encounters and what they might mean for the future of faith across the globe.
Tom Doyle, welcome to Maybe God.
Great to be with you, Eric. Thank you so much. Been really looking forward to this.
Well, us too. And thank you for making the time. And I know you're uh very busy spreading the gospel around the world. So, it means a lot that you made the time to be with us today. And grateful. I think the best place to start would just be your own story and whether you ever imagined in a billion years being a guy God would use to reach Muslims across the world. Was that ever part of your plan?
No, not at all. I I was a pastor for 20 years. Um I started doing Israel trips leading tours from our church and other people and actually became a guide in the state of Israel. And so I kind of thought that would be it would always pastor. But three months before 9/11, God just gave us this heart to uh to work with Jews and Muslims in the Middle East. And so he called us out to leave to go and support to start a ministry. And so uh we didn't know what we were walking into. Uh we didn't have a lot of experience with Muslims actually. But 9/11 was a dividing line, Eric, where where Muslims had to and they all watched 9/11. They know from you can go into villages where they don't even have electricity. They knew about 9/11.
Yeah. And so they had to decide, is that what it means to be a good Muslim that I have to do jihad and kill people? We know that about 60% of them don't even practice Islam. 30% do and they'd be good neighbors if they moved in next to you. But it's that 8 to 10% that really believes jihad is the way, which would be the upper crust leadership of Iran right now. This is their goal. This is what they live living for. And so, so anyway, we just saw a wideopen door and then in the midst of it, totally unexpected, seeing what God was doing coming to Muslims in dreams and visions.
And I didn't believe it at first. I just thought, what, you know, is this some weird Christian TV show or something? I don't know what I was thinking.
You were hearing these stories secondhand at first?
Yeah. And then we started hearing them personally, and I mean a lot of them. a lot of them wherever we go. So we work in all the Middle East countries, have a lot of workers, probably about 70 that work with Uncharted Ministries, our our ministry.
We get stories every week for sure.
But and then we work in the area. We've met these people and um it's re here. Let's just throw it out. It's the great awakening for the Muslims right now. It really is.
Yeah. I want to get more into that in a second. Um, the first great awakening I want to talk about though is your own. And what was it exactly that softened your heart toward these folks you were meeting in the Arab world?
Yeah. You know, Eric, we lived in Colorado. I pastored there. I had a car that was in the shop up in Denver. My wife Joanne dropped me off. So, we go to pick up the car and the guy said, "Mr. Doyle, I'm so sorry. We found something. One more thing we got to fix. It's going to be an hour and I'm sorry." He goes, "Why don't you go across the street? It's lunch. to this Middle Eastern restaurant and we'll pick up the tap. Should be an hour. Just go on over there." So, okay. I'd been to Israel and Egypt, Jordan. I'm having my falafel and a diet Pepsi and enjoy myself. And um two guys walk in. They're obviously Middle Eastern, black leather jacket, closely cropped beard, whispering in Arabic, and they're right next to me. The tables are about 3 ft apart. It's really small cafe. Well, I mean, I'm the son of an FBI agent, organized crime specialist. So, my mind, you know, in my house, Eric, you were guilty until proven innocent. You know, everything is suspect, right?
So, I'm just profiling them, sitting there. They're whispering in Arabic, and they have the look. They're young. I thought, "These guys are jihadists." So, this is in the 90s.
And uh you know what? Few minutes later, as I'm tuning in, I hear one of them say in English to the other, he said, "Hey, Makmoud, the Lord is amazing, isn't he?" And I it just took me back. I thought, "I didn't know Muslims talk like that. That talks like that sounds like what we talk like as believers, you know, back to Arabic." So, I'm listening in listening in. And then finally, the other one in English said, "Let's just face it, Muhammad. Jesus is Lord over Syria and nobody can stop him." And I sat there and I just remember my falafel dropped in the water. And I looked over and I said, "Are you guys believers?" And they said, "Yes, are you?" And I said, "I think so. I mean, I used to be till I Excuse me. I totally profiled you." And they said, "Oh, yeah. We have the look. We get that all the time." Wow.
Don't worry about it, brother. pull over a chair and that was it, Eric. And we sat there for about an hour. They kept calling, "Your your car is done. Your car's done." And I'm getting story after story about how God is moving in the underground church. And I was hooked. And then I get the car and they take me to their house. They want me to have dinner. They're inviting all their family over. And I called Joanne and said, "You won't believe what I just experienced." Wow.
And I had never sadly really thought about what happens when Muslims become believers and follow Jesus and they live in dangerous places like Baghdad or Damascus.
Interesting.
And man, I was hooked. And that was the beginning of the journey.
Yeah. Wow. It uh brings to mind a lot of things we should be convicted about, right? Our our predispositions and how wrong-headed they are sometimes. Sounds like you were pretty convicted in that moment about >> whatever geopolitical or theological predispositions you had toward the kind of folks that walked into that cafe that day. And I think a lot of us hold those good guy bad guy kind of um >> for sure >> uh kind of assumptions and you know hopefully the Holy Spirit will convict us convict us of those and and free us from that sort of thing. But um sounds like he slapped you right across the face with that sort of thing that day.
Boy, he did. And you know, I I just try to push all that away because we we go everywhere. Gaza probably 15 times we smuggle Bibles into Iran. And just don't judge a book by the cover. And we just have to always just keep remembering they're created in the image of God. They're created in the image of God.
Give them a chance. You never know where they are. Yeah. So >> I've said stupid things like even publicly like uh you know God and Allah are not the same. like I'm making some kind of big point that Christian Christianity and Islam are not worshiping the same God. And my Arab Christian friends are always quick to point out that they call God Allah.
It's just our limited framework sometimes that that condemns us.
Um but what h what changed after that experience?
You know after that I go home and this is before the call to missions and we have a trip to Egypt. We're doing a Bible tour to Egypt, Journey of Moses, and Joanne and I and our team are there and we're at the pyramids and it is now it's in the summer and it's super hot there. And Joanne sees this woman in a full nab, just the slit, you know, with the eyes. You've seen those black.
It is so hot. And we're in shorts and t-shirts and she's in all that. And Joanne just grabs my arm and says, "Oh my gosh, the Lord's telling me I need to go speak to this woman. I I look at her over there. She must be suffering." And by the way, Eric, her husband was dressed, he had a shirt that was unbuttoned, you know, like down to his navl. He looked like an Arabic version of Wayne Newton or something. I don't know, you know, it was just like, and then here she's, you know, and I said, Joanne, what are you going to say? And she said, I have no idea. Pray for me. Mhm.
And so she walked over, walked up to this woman and just reached out with a loving hand to touch her arm and said, "You have the most beautiful eyes." And she just wiggled under that that hija. She just wiggled and immediately grabbed Joannne's hand. We you know we men it takes us a while to connect. Yeah.
Women it can be immediate.
Sure. And they are just talking and she is loving and Joanne is telling her, "I I I love Jesus and I'm going to be praying for you the rest of my life." And God just adjusted her just like I had that restaurant adjustment. All of a sudden, I could see clearly and my eyes were on the lookout for Muslims. I wasn't avoiding them anymore. I was looking out for them. We had no idea God was calling us into that ministry. Yeah,
but that finally happened and so um
Wow.
Yeah. I think from the outside looking in for a lot of people it feels like Islam worldwide is just on the rise and uh you know it's uh spreading infiltrating I guess the west and you see a lot of stories about that happening in Europe and to some degree in the western world and the US um as though it's this unstoppable force that will one day uh supersede Christianity in number and become the dominant religion in the world. um what have you seen uh in regards to Islam and and um you know people's I guess Muslim people's satisfaction with their faith and and more and more people coming to it. What's been your experience?
Well, I think Islam has a weak underbelly because when you think about how it started, it was conversion by death or conversion.
So a majority of those first generational leaders and Muslims throughout the Middle East, they only did that to save their life. They're the majority of them were not convicted. This was the right theology. This was the right leader. They just weren't. They did it out of fear. And that's a very flimsy conversion. And and so I think it just stands to reason several generations later that God would start to answer those prayers. And of of Christians around the world, we Eric, we used to pray through the window or pray during Ramadan or you know the 10:40 window. I remember praying for for that. And the least reached people, oneif of the globe is Islam. And those prayers, they're never wasted. Those prayers are still up there before the father. In fact, my wife Joanne says it's like they're live streaming before God.
They're still there.
Wow.
You know, yeah. Just like when when Simon in the temple when uh when when he they they told him that um God's heard your prayer, you know, and Elizabeth's going to have a baby. Zachchariah, sorry. And it ends up that um God's heard what prayer? He probably hadn't prayed that in decades. They were old.
Yeah.
And a baby, right?
And we were praying, people were praying at our church. We had mission conferences. People are praying for Muslims. And all of a sudden, it just seemed like the floodgates opened wherever we went.
And so my first experience just a couple of months after 9/11, Eric, I walked into the Gaza Strip was with the only evangelical pastor, the entire Gaza Strip, and immediately a Muslim woman covered in black comes up and grabs my arm and says this, "You're from America, aren't you?" And I said, "Well, yeah, I am." Spoke great English. Uh, and she said, "Did you see on September 11th when the buildings came down and the people in Gaza were cheering? Did you see that on CNN?" And I said, "Yeah, I did see that." She said, "Not me."
I was crying for those people because they they didn't deserve to die. And I am so sorry. Will you forgive the Palestinians here for cheering? I was crying. I'm so sorry.
And I said, "Yes." and she turned on her heel and walked away. And I thought, you know what? There's more than terrorists here. There are human beings here. Here's this Muslim woman. And that was risky. Eric, even just kind of tapped my arm there that they don't do that, but she wanted to get my attention.
And I just remember thinking, Lord, we can work with this. These are some people that have big hearts and not all of them want to do >> jihad. Yeah. And for young people that are watching that might not have the uh memories that we have about 9/11 and the months following that I'm shocked that you were over there a few months after 9/11 because it was so intense. Everybody was so afraid and there were other scares happening, anthrax and other things going that I remember and um you know rumors of wars uh kicking up in the region and and there you were and it's just it's a testament to me that there was something stirring in your heart that you left your comfortable >> place here in the US to be over there >> and God honored that. I know u you've written and talked a lot about what soon after that started happening. When did you first begin to catch wind personally firsthand of Muslim people being encountered by Jesus specifically um in supernatural ways?
Yeah. Well, you know, I just heard of it secondhand. Didn't know if it was true or not. And hey, let's face it, we've all heard about missionary stretch where there's stories and >> did that really happen to whole village? We hope so, you know, but maybe it didn't. and we started hearing about it and wasn't sure about it. My first thought was this because I trained studying God's word and my first thought was well all they need is God's word. They don't need a dream or a vision. They really don't. And uh but then we started to realize that some of the stats say that adult Muslims globally about half of them don't read. M
Shocking. So we we we we give them one of these and they they can't read it. They can't read the Bible.
Yeah.
And so anyway, we just started seeing uh God working in different ways and uh people crying out to God about prayers, things that they needed. And and then I met someone in a Bible study. We're in Jerusalem. Some some Arabs and Jews, former like Orthodox Jews, former Palestinian radicals for sure were in this Bible study and uh everybody's going around the circle given their name. And the guy next to me, Eric says, "My name's Muhammad and I'm from Jerusalem." And I just went, "Wow, what a name to have as a believer. Were you just dying to get out of Islam and have a personal relationship with Jesus?" And he looked at me and he said, "Uh, no. I I thought I was right and you were wrong.
I mean, I thought that Islam was the right way and you guys were all wrong and you were lost. And so it ends up, he says, um, but that all changed. And I said, "What happened?" He said, "Jesus started coming to me in dreams night after night."
And when Jesus comes to you 30 nights in a row, that gets your attention. and 30 nights thinking, "Holy mackerel, are you kidding me?" I mean, I've never had a Jesus dream. I would love to, but >> I've never had any dream for 30 nights in a row. That would be that would be attention grabber.
And so it ends up that that he just told me a story and we it was just everything opened up. We just wherever we went, we started having Muslims coming up saying, "I saw a man in a white robe. He says he's Jesus. What does it mean? You're a Christian, right?" and and wherever we went, we were we were hearing this and hearing the stories. A friend of mine that works with crew put together a website and it was, "Have you seen a man in a white robe?" And uh has a man named Jesus come to you? And um and he called me and said, "Tom, guess how many responses we had to that website?" He goes, "And it wasn't even really that great of a website. We just threw it together. Is this happening? we're here. It's happening." I said, I don't know how many responses from Muslims, 100, 200. He said, 750,000.
Goodness.
From around the world. I said, you're kidding me. And so,
was this just a website?
Just a website. So, we started, it really, it launched a ministry. We we started writing him down. Remember the old yellow legal pads? Uh-huh. I
So I'd meet Muhammad in Baghdad and he'd say, "Yeah, Jesus came to me in a dream." I'd say, "Wait a minute. Okay, start over. I got to get these details because I preach in churches and they're not going to believe this." You know,
I didn't believe it.
And it was amazing. Initially, in the beginning, a lot of them that we encountered had this same dream that they saw a man in a white robe across a lake and he said, "Come follow me." And they would see themselves walking on water to them.
Wow.
So why why that dream? Here's a guess. Because outside of the resurrection around the world, when you talk to people about Jesus, that's the one miracle that they've heard of. Is that the guy that walked on water?
Yeah.
You know, it's kind of like the Red Sea miracle in the Old Testament for the Jews. This he walked on water,
right? And so we would hear that then it just we were hearing all kinds of dreams
to the point where recently some um men and women from Saudi Arabia came out into a Muslim country that works with church planting to train them how to do underground churches in Saudi Arabia. And at the end of the conference, they didn't know each other. They just all came together at the end of the conference. They said, "Hey, by the way, there's 39 of you here. How how because we used to say one-third of all Muslims that come to faith in Christ have a dream about Jesus. Now we say feels like it's probably about half." Wow.
It's hard to get numbers. How many of you had a dream about Jesus? You guys don't know each other. Nope, we don't know each other. But they were drawn to this conference
and they came. All 39 of them
had dreams. All 39.
All 39. So we're we're hearing it all the time. And a lot of people say, "Well, it's not
not in America. It is in America. We're meeting Muslims that are having dreams about Jesus."
My next question was going to be whether uh any part of you having the predisposition that you had before all these events started happening. Uh remained skeptical about the stories you were hearing. I don't know how you would though with that prepundonderance of evidence. Yeah, I started I kind of initially held them at arms length, but here was the thing. Every one of them, we would ask them about their commitment to Jesus. And you would hear these former Muslims, Eric, say, "I'm willing to die for him. I'm willing to suffer for him. I'm willing to die for him." And I thought, "Who am I to judge these people? The last church I pastored, would all of them have said that? I doubted,
right?" You know, in fact, now our leaders throughout the Middle East, when a Muslim's ready to pray, they ask him two questions. Number one, are you willing to suffer for Jesus? Because it's probably going to happen.
Yeah.
Probably from your family, people you love the most >> may persecute you. If they say yes, okay, here's the second question. It could be worse than that. You could be called on to die for Jesus. Are you willing to die for Jesus? Yes.
Wow. And then they pray for and this is before salvation. Eric, let's put these questions in the new members class. Man, we should be doing
we should be I'm not even sure it would be the same though because saying it saying it in a place like Houston, Texas is one thing. I can say it. Sure. Uh yeah, I'll die for Jesus. But saying it in a context where you could actually die for Jesus.
You really could.
That's another thing entirely.
Yeah, you really could. We were in an underground church in a Middle Eastern country and it was baptism day. So it's they they actually meet in a church, close the windows, curtains, lock the doors and all that. Secret side entrance could have a password to come in.
We're involved in MPBS, Muslim background believers being baptized. There was a woman arm and in the meeting before it she would told everybody my husband says baptism is the end of the road. I know you love Jesus now but if you get baptized that'll be the day that I kill you.
Wow.
So we're standing there and everybody's lining up and they're all hugging at each other. These are former Muslims. They just have the joy of Jesus. And the side door opens and here she comes. I mean, I just looked at her and I thought, "This is an unbelievable commitment." And then the the clapping just started and standing ovation. Everybody just like this is her family and this could be the end of her life.
And she came in and just hugs all over the place. Yes, I'm following Jesus because it says believe and be baptized in the scriptures. And you know, amazingly,
her husband did not kill her.
He didn't.
In fact, now she says every day when she's on her knees praying in the living room, she can hear him walk down the hall. He's listening to those prayers. She said, "He likes it that I'm praying for him. He likes our marriage. He loves life." now other than he's not a believer but he's getting there. So
that is amazing.
Yeah.
Gosh.
Yeah. It's hard for us to even conceive of a situation like that. So let's let's just circle back for a second because it sounds like these dreams are so impactful, incredible for those who are having them that that you know they're willing to take a step like the woman you just described. What is it exactly? How do they know it's Jesus?
Yeah. Yeah. Is he wearing a shirt, Jesus? Or like how do they know?
Yeah. Yeah. Well, this definitely isn't the surfing dude Jesus, you know, blonde hair, blue eyes. This is this is >> Middle Eastern Jesus.
Middle Eastern Jesus. Dark hair, dark eyes, and he identifies himself. I am Jesus. I love you. Uh a a woman in Iraq in Baghdad. Her husband would beat her every night. And one night, he hit her with a frying pan and knocked her out. He was cruel. He would burn cigarettes into her arm and their 5-year-old son's arm. And and so she she comes to on the kitchen floor and she says this, "God, every night I pray, God, where are you? Allah, where are you? I'm changing one prayer, one word in my prayer tonight and it's this. God, who are you?
Because I asked for you to show up every night and you don't. So you're either too busy or you don't care about me. Maybe I'm praying to the wrong God. God, who are you?" Well, what do you think happens that night? Of course, she has an incredible Jesus dream where he tells her, "I love you. I'm here for you. You will be safe and I will get you out of this situation."
Gosh.
I met her in Jordan.
And the escape is miraculous how it happened. I mean, this is >> the escape from her marriage. escape from her marriage and to get out of the country. This is like James Bond meets Jesus stuff. I mean, it's it's unbelievable where God tells her here, "Yes, I give you my life, Jesus, and pack your bag, packs her bag, gets her son in the middle of the night, and I'm sending someone for you." She like, who?
And gets her stuff, gets her passport. She looks out the window, there's a cab there.
She goes down and who sent you? I don't know. we got to call. I'm supposed to pick you up and take you to the border to get into Jordan. And they escape and they get out.
So when I met her,
I mean, you talk about a gospel machine. She was sharing with >> I can only imagine >> everyone and just had this personality and just such a heart of love for for met her son and he'd been beaten. It was so sad. But another soul that Jesus reclaimed. So I think for me to to finally I was over the edge realizing this is this is true. It's happening now that we do have the problem of false dreams. There are some Muslims that have a dream about Jesus and Muhammad. We've seen that too.
We know how to walk them through that. The enemy, he can do that. He sure guys himself.
Yeah. Whatever God creates, Satan imitates, we say.
Yep.
What do you do in a situation like that?
So we just ask him what happened. Like this one cab driver was telling me um that I was going from Jerusalem to Bethlehem and I I said, "Oh, you're Muslim." Hey, have you ever had a dream about Jesus? We hear that all the time. And I'll usually say something like, "Have you heard how God is honoring the Muslim people?" And they'll say, "What do you mean?" Oh my gosh, he's lifting them up. How? Why? He's coming to them. Jesus is coming to Muslims in dream. If you had a dream, he goes, "I had a dream." I said, "Great. Tell me about it." He goes, "I was walking and Jesus said it was Jesus." And all of a sudden, Jesus said, "This is my son Mohammad." Listen to him. And he put his arm around the prophet Muhammad.
Said, "Okay. Okay. Well, I'm going to pray that you have a real Jesus dream." And I just talked him through it. I said, "I don't I don't think that's a real dream." Cuz the Bible I mean, you had the dream, but it's not It wasn't Jesus. Because in the Bible, Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father but through me. Right.
So my friend, it's not through Muhammad. It's only through Jesus. So he wouldn't have said that.
Yeah.
Leaving the gins. And he said, "Well, yeah, the gins are the the genies, the demons." And Yeah. And I said, "Man, I'm sorry, but I think that's what that was, you know."
Yeah. So, you're just honest with them up front. Yeah.
Yeah.
I guess it could be easy if you weren't a man of high character to uh to just take that as a Jesus dream, too, and count them as another sort of uh victory. in the wind column and um call it a day. But uh I think it's important to call that what it is. And as much as it's probably uncomfortable to have that conversation and hearing you say that actually helps a skeptic like me to um cozy up to the the overall uh ministry and testimony you're offering because it's not all, you know, it's not all rose tenned glasses here. There's there's evil at work in even in this. Um, but let's talk quickly about why God would choose to go to uh Muslim people in dreams. What is it about the Muslim worldview that um makes that so effective?
Well, I think I think they're searching. Uh I mean they're they're definitely passionate about their faith. Um it is interesting. There's cracks of opening in their in their theology. And one of them is the last week of Ramadan. They have a night called the night of destiny, the night of power. And every Muslim knows they're to pray to God, to ask him for some special revelation that he would draw near, that he would come to them. See, they're not they're not feeling it, Eric, in their religion. They're not sensing a closeness. You read the Quran, you would never come up with that. that this loving father, aba father we have that they don't. And so they're they're seeking an intimate personal relationship. That is the number one night of the year that Jesus appears to Muslims in dreams and visions.
Really?
They're saying Allah, come to me. Jesus accommodates that and he comes to them in a dream or a vision. And so finally I came to this place where I was on Moody Radio one day with one of my old prophets at Dallas Seminary and he said, "Tom, tell a dream story." It's 2011. So I told a dream story and he said, "You know what? You need to write a book about Muslims having dreams and visions." And I said, "Yeah, I've thought about that. I just wonder how evangelicals would accept that." And you know what he said, Eric? He said, "We evangelicals, we need to get over ourselves. God can do anything he wants at any Who are we to tell him? If he wants to use a dream, good grief, Islam started with the dream. Maybe that's why he chose it."
What would even be the objection from the evangelical perspective there that it's too wishy-washy?
It doesn't it doesn't happen today. I I had a pastor in Michigan really upset and sent me an email and said, "We don't need that. We only need the word of God." And I told him, "You're 100% right. We do not need dreams and visions. We have the word of God. But what would your plan B look like if you discovered that half the adult population in the Muslim world didn't read?"
Yeah.
And many of them can't spell their own name. What would your plan B look like? And he said, "Okay, I never thought of that." So that's that idealistic view. We're just going to give them the Bible. They're going to read. They're going to get saved. We're going to lead them. There's other ways. And and I and I think every Muslim has this strong locked down barrier between them and Jesus. They believe we worship three gods. They believe the scriptures are corrupted. Uh and a lot of other lies. And so they're just not going to go there. But you know what's interesting? And a guy wrote me in an email recently. He said, "I wonder if God is using dreams because it gets past our we have a critical barrier."
You know, if I just if I told you, hey, I was up getting leaves out of the gutter and I fell and I landed perfectly on my feet and I'm not hurt and all that. You might go, "What? I don't know if I believe that." But in dreams, that critical barrier is not there. I mean, sometimes you wake up and think, "What in the world was that dream about? I'm back in middle school. I can't get my locker open, you know, and it seemed real and there there's not that filter. There's not their defenses.
Yeah.
You know, critic that critical barrier. And I thought, you know, that's that's pretty amazing. Plus, I think >> Islam started with the dream.
Yeah, that's right. I was going to say that.
And and he thinks it was Jabriel, Gabriel. We think it was a demon. He had horrible things that would happen. He'd foam at the mouth. It looks like he's maybe epileptic or being demonized. But but anyway, so
there's an opening there. They Yeah. Their whole faith is founded on a really spectacular dream.
Yeah.
Um Yeah. And so there's a predisposition to believe uh the supernatural power of dreams. Um and so yeah, I mean if you're I mean none of us can imagine being God, but if you're God and given all this uh circumstances about the >> the reading issue and the barriers and the uh openness to dreams, it makes all the sense in the world why God would reach these people he made in his image, people he loves uh through dreams.
Yeah.
Um you've mentioned some of the commonalities in some of these dreams. Are there others maybe that are worth mentioning? things that people, not all people that had these dreams, but many >> share in common.
Yeah. You know, uh they they feel safe. They feel safe. How many women have told my wife Joanne, "This was the safest I've ever felt with a man in my life."
Jesus put his arm around me and told me he loved me and he walked with me and I felt no fear.
Yeah. I mean sadly we do know this not in the so much the modern Muslim world but in the traditional arranged marriages a lot of times the guy's 60 and the girl is 15 and these are bad >> predator relationships it's not good and they don't feel safe >> with a man even sometimes their sons who at you know around 10 to 12 years old have more say in the family than them and and so um yeah we hear that all the time. I just I felt safe with Jesus. With with with men, it's I just wanted him to come back. I wanted to hear more.
This was just amazing. And so, we're we're clear that there's a division there. We don't want a little bit of Jesus, little bit Islam. We don't want Chrislam. We don't want that. There's a clean break there. Jesus didn't allow for multi-religious beliefs. It's either him or nothing. And so we have to make that clear uh with them and they understand that and they understand what that means too
for sure.
Fascinating. Um you've mentioned several uh examples already of women um in difficult circumstances to say the least and uh beaten by their husbands on a regular basis or unsafe like this woman said she the only man she ever felt safe with was Jesus in the dream and um running for their lives in some cases. Is that a result? Is that just a cultural phenomenon or is that sort of thing allowed in uh in the Muslim framework or by the Muslim scriptures that u sort of sets that up that situation >> as far as dreams?
No, I'm sorry. As far as women being in danger and uh you know men having their way with them.
Yeah. I mean in in the Quran it says that hell is mainly populated by women and for you know you can't have the testimony of a a woman. So if a woman's raped, all you need is a couple of men to say, "No, it didn't happen." And case over, case dismissed. If if they follow Sharia law.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, they know that it's it's very difficult for them and they understand that.
Yeah.
And you know, you even look at this. We did a we did a video with a great ministry out of Brazil and it's on Hagar. And you know, Hagar is supposedly the the mother of all Muslims. Right. She that's what they claim. But she is not even named in the Quran.
Really?
We'll say that to Muslims. Who's who who's the mother of of um Muslims? Hajar. They'll say Hagar. Yeah. Did Did you get that out of the Quran? Is she named? No, she's not named in the Quran. You know what? Listen to what God thinks of her in the Bible.
She's not only named. She's allowed to give God a name. She names him the God who sees, the God who hears me.
Yeah.
She say she was willing. Really? They don't know that. They don't know that. Look how God honors women. So, we're always trying to open that up so they can truly see
Yeah.
the way God intended it to be.
Are you Do you find it Have you all found it in your ministry um I guess easier is the word or just more fruitful to to reach out directly to women for that reason? they're they're already they tend to be more dissatisfied with the framework they're in. Is that accurate?
Yeah. Yeah. And you know what? My wife Joanne hit it and it led to a book, Women Who Risk, Secret Agents for Jesus in the Muslim World. We were just walking through the house one day and she said, "Gosh, after 20 years of working in the Middle East, have you ever noticed all the movements in the country we're working with in a village, in a city, whatever? Always seems like it was a woman first that came to faith in Christ. just like the women at the cross, the women at the tomb, the women at the resurrection, you know, and and then Joanne just just said it. Yeah. Women are the spiritual gatekeepers of their family, aren't they? And I said, "Oh my gosh, yes.
We need to write a book on that of women that have made an impact." And and so we did. So we always say this, reach the Muslim woman, reach the Muslim world.
Wow.
That's huge. That's interesting because in my ministry with in in reaching skeptics in America, I always say the opposite. I always say, you know, reach the Christian man, father, husband, uh his his family will follow. That's sort of a truism in Christian evangelicalism.
But in the Muslim world, you've experienced the opposite.
Yeah. In fact, one of our leaders who's a former Muslim imam said this. He said, "I wasn't in charge of training the kids in Islam. That's the wife's job. I don't I don't do that. I do the spiritual stuff, not stuff at home.
And so they hold a lot of sway. They're the ones that train. They're the ones that read the Quran.
Yeah.
To their kids. And so
so anyway. Yeah.
So you mentioned the book that uh your wife and you wrote together. It's women who risk. I love the subtitle. Secret agents for Jesus in the Muslim world. And this is the book that um by which I got to know you. And it's Dreams and Visions. You mentioned it earlier. Um, in the book there's a a line, I think it's in the intro, uh, where you say, "Prepare to be amazed. Islam has a visitor. Jesus has arrived."
What kind of numbers have you seen? And, um, I guess as a follow-up to that question, what happens to these people once Jesus arrives?
Yeah. For them?
Yeah. Well, I think probably the most accurate my guess numbers is the unreached unengaged people groups and the majority of them you know there's a lot in China and different places like that but the majority of the unreached um people groups uh unengaged nobody working with them is in the Muslim world and we see those numbers we see ministries coming together and saying the gospel launched in this village. And it's it's a beautiful thing to see, Eric, because you know, when we when we come together in Christ and nobody cares who gets the credit.
Yeah.
We can get a lot done for Jesus, right? You know, nobody is trying to, hey, we're the best. We're working together. So, when we meet people that are meeting with Muslims and seeing things, we want to hear what help us. You know, there's areas where we're striking out big time. what's what's happening and there's just this camaraderie of people that love and support each other because they know it's difficult and so um so anyway you can look at unreached people groups we know of places I could take you to a city in in the Middle East right now where over 500 Muslims have come to faith in Christ it's a radical city so this would be the underground church this church that meets
uh for them because they're in a fanatical city to walk into a church, they'd probably be killed.
Yeah.
Uh but when the refugee crisis happened in Syria and then Iraq and that leaders in the Middle East started saying to Christian leaders, "We're going to reach out to them as Muslims to help them with food and clothing. Will you reach out to them, too?"
Which was amazing, really.
Yeah. And so there now it's getting to the point where I just heard in Damascus from a pastor that he said 30% of the people that were coming to his church were Muslim seekers. They were slipping in, slipping out. They got to know people through food distribution, clothing, whatever. So that's starting to happen more and more where they're coming together.
Yeah. But then when they come to faith in Christ, it's it's that willingness to to live for Christ. I mean, in America, we're I mean, in the Middle East, we're saying, "Are you willing to die for Christ?" In America, it's are you willing to live for Christ? Right? That'll preach, right?
But um so anyway, we're we're seeing a lot of numbers. Hard to get your arm around the numbers. I hear estimates from like David Garrison, who's a good friend of mine, The Wind in the House of Islam. If you want to read a good book, read that.
Yeah. or Abdul Murray or or Brother Rasheed who's on the internet and television has a $25 million bounty on his head.
We're hearing some big numbers. We don't know how to verify. But one thing I would like to say is >> we have a a website called I found the truth. I found thetruuth.com. And these are all former Muslims. They give their testimony. They just here is my story. So
yeah,
people would say, "Well, this didn't happen." Well, this is their story. What's your story?
Yeah.
And it it took off kind of slow, Eric, but it just took off like a rocket. There's over 3.4 million people >> viewing the films. You know where the largest in in the country, the most viewed films are? Indonesia.
Really?
What we wanted. It's the largest Muslim nation in the world.
Yeah.
And so it shows you there's a hunger there. Oh, there is.
Okay. This guy's from >> Jordan, you know, and I'm from Jordan. What's he going to say? and then they're hearing the truth. So,
yeah. Yeah. We've had a couple of people on our podcast previously that are featured in on the website you mentioned. It's I found the truth.com. Is that right?
I I I checked out the site. It's awesome and so well done and the videos are amazing and I encourage everybody watching now to check out ioundtruth.com. Um, one of the people we've had on the podcast uh before was Majid El Shafi and uh his story is is on your website and
um one of the most watched videos uh that we've ever had on this channel
and every time we do something that has anything remotely to do with Islam, our numbers just go crazy.
Yeah.
And you know, we have to watch that because we don't want to just chase numbers. But um what we see with that is >> there's something happening around the world that piqus interest. And I think for my sense is that for a lot of people in the Muslim world, videos like these and um interviews about people, you know, from wi with people that are from that part of the world, um it's a safe way for them to explore their questions.
Yeah.
As they continue to pretend to be Muslim for survival sake, I guess this is how I imagine it. um you know they can watch on their phone privacy of their home and and sort of ask and explore these questions and when someone in your experience u makes the leap in their heart from Islam to Jesus how much I mean I guess it's contextually dependent but how much do they have to continue to play along I love in your subtitle the book about women you said secret agents and that tells me they have to stay underground >> while continuing to put you know the face forward that um you know I'm still trustworthy and still who I was, but in their hearts they fundamentally changed. I'm guessing that's why it's hard to number put a number on this.
It really is. It really is.
It's not like counting attendance at church on Sunday morning. We'll do it.
Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. We It's shocking how many times we're in
Villages and places where we meet someone that's had a Jesus dream that prayed to receive Jesus. They don't know what it means. And so it's it's hard to get quantitative numbers, but for a woman like on Women Who Risk, if if you see the cover, it's a picture of a woman. She's got a pretty blue headdress on and she's going back into the village. She's accepted Jesus. She's going back in and she's going to tell her family.
And they they are not afraid of the truth. They will tell their family and they know what that could cost.
Um, they may not broadcast it in their village because people would probably line up and stone them, but these are these are people that have counted the cost and and are doing it. I think you know the one of the stories in dreams and visions that just gets me is is there was a there was a a woman in Saudi Arabia that came to faith in Christ and uh she lived in a village called Beda and Beda is probably the most fanatical village in Saudi Arabia. I mean it it's more conservative than Mecca.
Wow.
And so uh this sweet woman I'm forgetting her name now. I'll think of it in a minute. But anyway, she comes to faith in Christ and she gets online with her church. She doesn't know anybody in Bera that has a Bible that knows Jesus, but there's this online group that didn't get to and it's safe on the internet and all of that. She starts hearing stories. That's what I want. That's what I want. She becomes a believer. So, her whole church existence was like this online.
Yeah. She never met a believer face to face. So she served Jesus, we think a couple years, two or three. Her brother worked for the secret police. And one day he saw something on her her uh computer while she was at work. She came home one day and said, "Is it true? Are you are you no longer a Muslim? Are you following Jesus?" And she said, "It's true. It is. It's true. I'm following Jesus. He said, "Give me your phone. I'm calling the family and in two hours you'll be dead for this."
And so she went in a room. Amazingly, her computer was still there.
Mhm.
And she wrote a poem and sent it out to the body of Christ. You talk about a brave young young 20s woman saying, "I'm not concerned about your swords."
Yeah.
Jesus is the savior of my life. Jesus is my protector. Look at the hate in your heart. And within two hours, it was brutal what they did. They dragged her into the street and killed her. And one of these days in heaven, Eric, that's someone we want to meet.
That's right.
I don't think she ever hugged a believer, but I bet Jesus was waiting for her there and gave her a huge hug. She was convinced of the truth, and her testimony is living on as people read the poem. If you get dreams and visions, that would be worth it just to what she wrote. I mean, it sounds like a
Erica, it sounds like an early church father or something with the depth of her faith in Christ.
Yeah, it really is. I know in addition to reaching Muslims for Jesus, you are passionate about the Western church hearing these stories.
Mhm.
And I think that's a critical part of your work because there is a there is a strain within Christianity now that sort of wants to turn on Muslims entirely.
Uh politically it's it's messy. Um we know of what's going on now with Israel and Iran and there's just a lot of fear.
What do you hope American Christians in particular take away from the stories you're telling and how it changes how do you hope it changes our heart? Well, we feel like here in the west, in America and Europe, we do a lot because our books are in different languages in Europe, is that we can sound the alarm to the church that Muslims are open. It's never been easier. This is the great awakening. Step out in faith and God's going to use you. Most of them are lonely.
Most of them don't have friends outside of their religion. And anyone that especially Muslim woman that even notices them, it is shocking to them. So let's sound the alarm in the churches and tell the stories about what God's doing. He said it's simple. We know these verses. Upon this rock, I will build my church.
Yeah.
And the gates of hell will not prevail. They're like Kleenex gates. They're nothing. Nothing's going to stop the church. And this hasn't stopped the church in the Muslim world or the Muslim world here.
So for all of us that have been praying for the 1040 window and all that, guess what? The 1040 window is out our window now.
Yeah.
We say, look at Houston. I mean, we say this,
Man.
The Muslims are coming. The Muslims are coming. The Muslims are here.
They're here.
So, what are we going to do? and with a little bit of love and a lot of um guts to get out there and just meet people. Muslims are open to the gospel. They're open.
Yeah. And I I guess a skeptic might say, "Uh, well, what about all these stories of overseas Muslims having all these encounters with Jesus supernaturally, and I'm not hearing those stories here in sophisticated America?" Um, so that would be a feather in the cap of, you know, someone who wants to say, well, it's just the sort of thing you get from unsophisticated backwater parts of the world.
Yeah.
Um,
Are these kinds of things happening here as well?
They really are. And I think I would say, you know,
Obviously Muslims that would come here have a lot more access to the gospel in a village,
No Bibles, no internet, no nothing. They don't. So we do see it more there, but we see it here. We see it a lot here about Jesus coming to people. And so we lived in Colorado 20 years and then God called us to move back to Texas.
Yeah.
And I remember thinking, "Oo, August in Texas, you know, we lived we lived at 7,400 feet in the mountains and that." Anyway, so we come and that first summer, it's July, meeting all day at the missions office and we're talking strategy and all that stuff. Anyway, I get in the car, it is so hot. Feels like 150. Get in the our little Honda CRV and I'm going to go pick up Joanne. We have a dinner and then I realized, oh my gosh, I'm late. I should have left like 30 minutes ago with traffic and
So I get up on the freeway and on the Honda it says six miles till empty. And I just went, Lord, of course, I need a break today. Can I have a break? You know, I'm whining. I'm whining. So, I pull off the first exit. There's three stations. Okay, I'll take the FINA one over here.
So, I go and I stick my card in. It says must see cashier. And I went, "Oh, come on, Lord. Are you kidding me? I could use some help here." I walk in. I put my card down. Woman comes up. She's fully covered. And I went, "Wow, we spend our life in the Middle East. We we know Muslim people all over the world and where where are you from? We love your people." And she said, "You go to the Middle East all the time." And I said, "Yeah." And she said, "Okay, well then you have to guess where I'm from." I said, "Well, all right." I said, "Egypt." She goes, "Nope. Saudi Arabia."
Huh?
I said, "Seriously?" And then all of a sudden it hit me. I said, "Have you heard how God is honoring the Muslim people? How he's just lifting them up?" She goes, "What do you mean? He's coming to them in dreams. In fact, I wrote a book about it. I'd like to give you a book on Muslims having dreams." She goes, "You wrote a book about that?"
I said, "Yeah." She goes, "That's so strange because I've been having dreams about Jesus."
What?
And I wanted to turn around and say, "Forgive me, God, for that crack about where are you? I'm tracking right now. I get it. I get it. Right.
Oh, that's funny.
And I run out, Eric. I get her a book and I give it to her and I'm signing the thing. She's already flipping through it.
And um anyway, I left. We made it to our dinner on time. You know, a few days later, I'm in the area. Oh, I need to get gas. I thought, "Ooh, I'm going to stop at that station."
And then, ooh, I'm going to use that same pump. And I stuck the card in. Works perfectly. See, I don't think it was a card malfunction. you usually it says please see cashier was an order from God it said must see cashier so so I do I get my guest I go in and there she is Ria she's reading dreams and visions
And she goes Tom I like the book I said you do and she goes yeah it's like my life I said what do you mean it's like my life she goes I've been having dreams for a while I said like how long she goes over 30 years now
I said you you've been having Jesus dreams names for 30 years. She goes, "Yeah, yeah. The first one Jesus put a ring on my finger and told me he loved me. Is there is there anything in Christianity where like people that love Jesus, it's like a marriage or something?" I'm like, "Yeah." And we're talking
And she said this, you know, here's what I figured. Jesus told me over and over he loved me. And even though I went to churches and asked for answers and couldn't get them and I wonder what kind of church you went to,
Um, she said, "I just knew this." In that dream, I felt so much peace and so much love for him. I knew that one day he was coming for me. I've been waiting for Jesus.
I knew the day was coming.
Yeah.
And I said, "Roia, I think the day is today. I mean, I think it's today." And we went through the verses in Romans and some of the New Testament verses and she said, "That's it."
And here's this Muslim woman fully covered. We held hands in the Fina gas station and she prayed to receive Jesus and it was glorious.
Wow.
And nobody drove, you know, ding when the they hit the bell, you know, as they drop it. Nobody interrupted.
It was amazing. And here's what I thought. How many raas are out there close to us?
Yep. That's right.
That would just be waiting for someone to start a conversation. You don't have to share the gospel the first time. Just meet him and care for him. And so that's it. That's what we feel like a big part of it is, Eric, is just waking up the body of Christ. We needed waking up. We think the body of Christ does Can I tell you one fun story? Sure, please. We were in We were in Tyler at Greenacres Baptist Church. We're doing this
Tyler, Texas.
Yeah. Right?
Training training people on how to engage Muslims, get in a conversation. So anyway, my wife Joanne, she's little stick of dynamite for Jesus, you know, 411 Italian and she's got it. So anyway, she's telling the women when you see a Muslim woman, go up and just meet him. Hey, I'm so and so. Are you from America? Where are you from? Just start a conversation. That's all. And she goes, "We're gonna come back probably in about a year and I'm going to be asking you if you did this." So the very next day, someone that's sitting in the audience is in Kroger and she sees this Muslim woman in the aisle and all of a sudden she goes, "Oh, I'm supposed to go up and I can't I can't do it, Lord. I can't do it." Okay, if she's in the next aisle, I'm going to do it. I'm going to do it. She finishes her stuff, goes to the next aisle. Here she is.
Okay, Lord. She said in the next
Do not put the Lord your God to the test.
I'll do it happens again. She said I froze. I was scared to death. And then I said, "Okay, God, give me the strength. I don't know what to do." She goes, "I go the next aisle. There she is in the middle." And I just picked up the speed on my grocery cart and started going toward her. And she kind of looked up at me a little startled. She looked the other way and there was another lady from church coming the other way. Move your basket toward her. And the ladies looking and they both went up and said, "Hey, we we just want to meet you. We don't know where you're from, but you know, and and it was awkward and all that kind of thing, but they did it."
And that's all it starts with is a conversation. And believe me, they can see the fruit of the spirit on people. They can tell if you care for them or not.
Yeah.
They got that radar.
Yeah. It's just really seeing the humanity in another person and valuing that. I think that's one thing that worries me about where we are right now in our political moment, which is just the dehumanization of the other. And Muslims just for a lot of Christians I know just seem to be the easiest group to dehumanize. And
And uh there's a certain um it's it's uh seems to be kind of rewarding and self-gratifying in a way to to have another group to look down on. Um but as much as we can let Jesus liberate us from that, um it's just the opportunities are all over. And I used to be so cynical about all the supernatural things about uh the stories you hear from missionaries. The uh what do you call it? The missionary stretch or something.
I've never heard that. That's great.
Um and you know, I just I'm I'm hard-hearted sometimes. I recognize that. But um stories like yours. And then recently I had an experience myself in Houston, Texas, where a young man in the middle of a Thursday afternoon
Starts ringing the doorbell at the church. And I'm in the middle of a meeting and nobody's answering the door and I'm just annoyed. And I leave my meeting to go answer the door and it's this 28-year-old young man very well uh dressed presented well named Sam and he said, "Look, I'm sorry. I don't know why I'm here. I just know I've lived around the corner for almost a year now and I ride my bike around the neighborhood. Every time I pass this place, it feels like God is pushing me here. like he's telling me I have to come here and our church just moved into this property not long ago. And so I didn't know what to make of it, but I invited him in and just told him, you know, I'm in the middle of a meeting, but I let's talk for a second. And he starts telling me that he was raised Muslim. Um never had been anything other than Muslim. Um his parents are very devout but he just has been having these dreams and um I guess visions just a voice more more like a voice speaking to him about coming to this place.
And I'm talking to him and and he just seems like he's on the precipice of something and he's got a great life. There's nothing wrong. It's not a crisis, you know,
He just knows there's something God's calling him to. And I one of my assistant pastors kind happened to come along at that point and they're the same age. And so I thought this is great cuz I had people waiting for me in my office from that meeting. And so I just sort of handed him off to pastor Dylan. And Dylan comes back into my office in like 27 minutes time. He's got tears on his face. He's like crying and shaking from what had just happened. And he said, "Sam just accepted Christ." And
I had to get over my pastoral envy because I'm like, I've never walked anybody from Islam to Christianity in 27 minutes. Uh, which he did. And and Sam was just ready because God had prepared the the soil of his heart. And um,
And he was ready to receive it. And he I baptized him uh, soon after that. We did. Yeah. And uh, and he has been faithful in uh, in the church ever since. And it it opened my eyes personally to what's happening globally.
Um, to where I can't I can no longer chalk it up to just
Christian enthusiasm or evangelical zeal like this stuff's really happening.
Yeah. Jesus is going before us opening the door.
Unreal. And we can get on board or not, but I think we better.
Yeah. I I went to I spoke at Have you heard of Toolbox down there in Yeah, I spoke at Toolbox. Loved it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Anybody watching from Toolbox, invite me back. I'd love it. Anyway, um so a guy gets a hold of me like 6 months later on an email. Somebody gave him my email. He goes, "Tom,
I came to T toolbox and they told us what was you're talking about smuggling Bibles into Iran and reaching out to Muslims." And he goes, "I think I would have been more excited about getting a root canal than that." He goes, "I just this does not interest me." No.
Yeah. And he said, "But those stories, all of a sudden, those people were human." And I thought, "My gosh, God, if you are moving, why am I not involved in this?" Because I live in Houston and there's Muslims all around me.
That's right.
So he said, I just said, "Okay, God, every Wednesday, it's yours. I'm going to lunch at a Middle East restaurant. I'm going to just sit and see if I meet people." And at the Middle East restaurants, I mean, they're family style, you know? They will just,
Hey, come on over. You by yourself? you know, come on over and join us. And he said, I've led two Muslims to Christ and I'm discipling them.
And he said, I really don't know what I'm doing. Can I get some help? And and that we said, absolutely, we get some help. And he goes, what would you advise me? And I said, it doesn't matter that you don't know what you're doing. Just keep doing it. Yeah, we'll help.
And that's what happens. We we find out that God has prepared people. This is the good seed ready to land on the good soil and it's out there.
Yeah.
And you don't think that Muslims aren't watching the same news we're watching?
That's right.
They see that the trail of blood often goes back to the jihadists and they don't want that. They don't.
And so, and then even though
Even the jihadists, some of the people that we have seen come to faith in Christ, these were hard dudes
That have come to faith in Christ. And if they were in a room of people right now, you would never I mean, we always play the game. Spot the terrorist
Which one in this room was the terrorist, you know.
Yeah.
And you'd never guess because the love of Christ, the fruit of the spirit has so transformed them. They're a different person.
Yeah. That's right. Yeah. I think the message for us um American Christians is that God clearly has not given up on the Muslim world and we shouldn't either. And we shouldn't let our hearts turn hard or cold toward anybody. Um no matter what we see on the news because there's so much more to the story.
So true. I I want to come to your church and meet Sam.
Oh, I'd love I'd love to have you here. I it we if you ever were back in Houston, I'd love to have you um come check out the story and and speak or or um whatever whatever you'd like to do there. Um we're almost out of time, Tom. And I just want to encourage people one more time to check out uh not only the book Dreams and Visions, but uh I found thetruth.com, a huge resource. You also have a YouTube channel. That's very successful YouTube channel again. Fighting the envy bug here. Y'all are doing great on YouTube, man. Congratulations and praise God.
Well, praise God.
Um, you before we started rolling, um, you were telling me about, uh, some difficult medical news you got not long ago and um, yeah,
I just thought it would be a good place to land our conversation here because it does kind of circle back in a way to the conversation about your ministry in the Middle East. So, just tell us about that journey, what it's been like. Well, you know, I just got a stomach ache. It wasn't anything big, but one scan led to another. And finally down at MD Anderson, they found that I had stage four cancer, rare, aggressive, uh, bladder, prostate, picked it up in the Middle East as a parasite. And some of the new things we're reading on cancer, some some people are saying maybe all cancers come from parasites, but this one for sure does. And so we entered treatment prayer every day. People praying around the world. It's amazing. Changed throughout our pantry went organic doing everything that we just figured, hey, if this is a football game, we're going to hit it with as many weapons as we can. Prayer was number one. And
And then also, Eric,
Praying around the world. You got people in Iraq and Iran and Jordan and Israel praying. We're all praying together. It's like a slice of heaven. It's like a picture of every tribe, tongue, and people group on the throne.
So we go through treatment,
All these complimentary procedures. Four months later, they said no evidence of disease. A hallelujah miracle
From stage four to no evidence of disease.
Four, less than a year to live, they said.
Wow.
One doctor did.
And so then about five months later, another scan and they said, "Oop, we see some in the prostate." And so we did one thing of chemo, radiation, but uh doing a lot of things to remain healthy, build up the body, our terrain, and and fight it. So we're just praying that by my birthday in August, that it's going to be gone.
Yeah.
Completely. Kind of like that miracle. Remember when Jesus healed the man, the blind man, and then he said, "What do you see?" Well, I see people, but they look like trees walking around. You know, I can never figure that miracle. It's not like Jesus is short on power. But why? Why did that happen? Maybe, just maybe, that was to show us hang in there and keep praying.
Yeah.
And sometimes we don't see the healing in full. But anyway, that's who we're praying for. Feel great right now. And uh
What was the role of the parasites again? Just so I'm clear.
Yeah, that was what started it. So they said you probably picked it up in a village like in Egypt or Afghanistan, place that doesn't have a lot of clean food or whatever. And you know what it's like is missionaries. Yeah. You're reading things and praying into your hands I commit my spirit Lord. You know I don't even know what this is. And wow.
So picked up something there.
And what they attribute your healing to
The doctor kept saying it's a miracle
Really. He kept saying this is a miracle
And we we and and I never like this Eric where the guy the doctor is working so hard you know we did imu im immunotherapy all these things and then the Christian gets healed and goes it's all God it's all God well it is but here's this guy sitting over there saying what am I chop liver didn't I help you know and we kept telling our doctor you have been amazing we think with what you did
And what God did
It's just been an unbeatable team and well Thank you. And so
It's just another reminder as much as some of us want to boil Christianity down to some intellectual enterprise, we serve a God of miracles.
Oh my gosh,
He's able. Yeah.
True.
Well, can we have you on our podcast sometime your story?
Anytime. I would love that. Yeah. If you ever need to hear from a uh formerly cynical lost progressive activist and uh pretend Christian who found Jesus in the Holy Land, actually.
Oh my god.
I would love to talk to you. And also our son Josh has a podcast, No Longer Nomads, and it's really good. And I know he would love to have you on, but we'll look him up.
That's a message because you have things
That were in your heart that people have right now that are holding them back. We get it. We get it.
We've seen God use it.
Yeah. I hear people that are deconstructing their Christianity, not believing, and maybe they're have hurt from the past or whatever, but
Take them to an underground church where former Orthodox Jews and radical Palestinians love Jesus together and pray, they'll never be the same. That's right. You know,
Well, Tom, thank you so much, brother, for the time today. You've been an inspiration to me and I'm sure to many others. And I um I'll make sure we put the uh links we mentioned earlier in the show notes so everybody can find you. And I hope everybody watching will uh will follow Tom's work online. So,
Oh, man. Thanks.
Thank you, brother.
Let's get our people together. Let's get you on. We would love to hear your story.
Make it happen. Thank you, man. I appreciate you.
Okay. God bless you.
God bless you.