Transcription
[Music] Israel claimed that Hamas violated the ceasefire when there's reporting that contradicts that. But who knows? It's in the cloud of war right now. It's not the fog of war, Dave. It is your fog. You're unwilling to understand the most basic principle here that there's probably never been a more moral war.
I was in Gaza. Have you been to Gaza? Does anyone on the internet not know the answer to this question? Pierce, I've been sitting here for 2 years telling people, "You're not going to destroy Hamas this way." And every one of them said, "What do you know, comedian? You're not an expert." And yet here we are.
>> Are we expected to believe Mr. Netanyahu is going to chant, give peace a chance and rebuild Gaza? I think not.
>> You've had Norman Fickleton with his revisionism and doom and gloom. This is way bigger than Israel than Hamas. There's a bigger picture.
>> The Israeli hostages are finally home. The Palestinian prisoners have been released. The war in Gaza officially is over. But sadly with Israel and Palestine, it's never simply the end. As a great British leader once said, it may simply be the end of the beginning.
The IDF launched air strikes on southern Gaza just days into a truce after two of its soldiers were killed by Hamas. President Trump blamed the flare up on Hamas rebels acting without authority from the leadership which is committed to peace. But that fact alone gets directly to the point at hand. Who is running Gaza? Who can run Gaza? If rebel fighters continue to roam, how can a ceasefire possibly hold when far-right ministers from Israel prop up Netanyahu's government and are already demanding the IDF returns to finish the job? And what exactly does President Trump mean when he says that we will violently eradicate Hamas if it doesn't behave, especially as JD Vance has completely ruled out any US troops going to the region. Well, Trump one applaud it rightly for brokering a ceasefire that many deemed impossible and for getting the hostages released. The big question is whether his brute force alone is enough to prevent what many see as inevitable, a return to all-out war. Professor Norman Finkelstein, an Israeli envoy, Flur Hassan, will join me later. But with me now to debate these issues of Dave Smith, host of Part of the Problem, and Major Don Spielman, the IDF spokesman and author of When the Stones Speak. Well, welcome to both of you.
Dave Smith, straight off the top, how much credit do you give Donald Trump for actually getting the hostages released?
>> Um, yeah, he certainly deserves a lot of credit for that. Um, and I think that, you know, obviously from from my perspective, for many the perspective of people have been a critic of this. We've we've been a critic of him supporting um Israel's destruction of Gaza since he's been in in the White House again. But certainly, this was a much better uh direction to go. And I think everybody involved uh deserves credit whenever something good happens. And the fact that the hostages are are back home. I would also say I think the fact that uh 1,700 Palestinians who are being held without charges uh have been returned is also a good thing. And even though Israel really has not stopped the killing in Gaza, the numbers have been substantially less than they have been for most of the last two years. like this has been one of the least amount of, you know, every day I read the news on this stuff and instead of it being 70 people killed every day, it was like 12 people killed every day for a little bit there and then it got back up to a few dozen um in the last uh 48 hours or so. But so that look there there is an improvement here. We should all root for less people to die and less innocent people to be held in in captivity. However, I think you kind of already addressed this with your question. We're in a very uh precarious position here. Um it seems very unclear what's going to happen next and um that I I'm not optimistic.
Don Spielman, uh JD Vance is in Israel right now and the vice president said, "I feel very optimistic. Can I say with 100% certainty it's going to work?" No, but you don't do difficult things by only doing what's 100% certain. You do difficult things by trying. when asked what is the ultimate leadership in Gaza, he said I don't know. And he said the US will not set a deadline for Hamas disarmament. Um so and he also ruled out the the use of any US troops in Gaza. So some clarity there I think over what Donald Trump had said when he used the word we which he clearly didn't actually mean American troops on the ground. The big concern that people have is that you've got a bunch of rebels now swarming around Gaza. Hamas trying to control them, succeeding and failing in equal measure. And that there's a bit of chaos there. And in the crossfire are IDF, and you're seeing some IDF soldiers being killed. And then Israel is reacting with force and killing a lot of Palestinians. So this ceasefire has not actually been a complete ceasefire already. And the fear is that it won't take a lot to send the Israeli forces back into full action. Not least because you have people like Bengavir and Smodri and the government who are urging them to do exactly that right now. So I mean how confident are you that this as JD Vance says you know it's not 100% obviously but are you as optimistic as he is that this ceasefire will lead to a lasting peace?
>> Good to see you Pierce. I I actually think here I would more side in the side of Donald Trump. Again, we're hearing two voices. I I don't know if they're coordinated or not coming out of the White House. They both to some degree reflect reality. There is promise that this is moving forward. There has been less fighting. We've seen that Hamas has been slowly handing over the bodies of dead Israelis. It's a miracle that they brought home the 20 hostages. But the reality here is you're dealing with an unpredictable terror organization called Hamas that has a goal to still destroy Israel. And that is why again if you look at the first point at this plan and especially the point we're looking at now, Hamas as a condition of this deal has to demilitarize and be eradicated from the Gaza Strip by either requesting amnesty, turning in their weapons, or leaving the Gaza Strip. What gives some real bite to this deal is the fact that President Trump, the head of the strongest country in the entire world, is making guarantees. Now, how exactly he's going to go about doing this, we don't know in Israel. What I can tell you is that 53% of Gaza is controlled by Israel. We know the enemy. We understand the enemy's tactics. The enemy just killed, as you mentioned, two of our soldiers in violation of this treaty. Uh what Dave said that the killing is going on, of course, the killing, we're not randomly killing anybody. We're killing trying to kill Hamas terrorists. And when there's a an action that Hamas is approaching Israelis, as we know, unfortunately, sometimes civilians are in that area because that's how Hamas works. But you're looking at a deal with Hamas. There's two sides of the deal. When Hamas is one of the sides of the deal, there's no guarantee until they're gone. Pierce, right now, there is
>> the problem. I mean I would say the problem coming back to you Dave I mean the I'm I'm I don't quibble actually with with what Doran said there particularly but I would say this exact same thing applies the other way right is that there are people in that Israeli cabinet like Bengeir absolutely itching to restart the fighting in fact they don't think it should have stopped you know he actually said at the weekend I called on the prime minister to order the IDF to renew full-scale fighting strip at full strength the false belief that Hamas will change its ways or will even abide by the agreement it signed are proving unsurprisingly to be dangerous to our security. This Nazi terrorist organization must be destroyed completely and the sooner the better. And the problem with that is, you know, Donald Trump has put a lot of political capital um and been successful getting the hostages out, but he's putting capital on a level of trust with Hamas leadership that they do actually want to bring this to an end. But at the same time, he's got senior Israelis in the government there who want the complete opposite. So, you know, there is a lot of distrust on both sides here.
>> Yeah, that's that's for sure. And I I I don't know. I guess at this point in time, years later, I I just can't even believe that that uh you can say things like, well, look, this is a terrorist group that wants to destroy Israel. I mean, look, the reality we're looking at is that Gaza has been destroyed. And you know, Pierce, you're absolutely right to call out people like Smootrich and Ben Gavir and and other far-right members of the government. But look, just the Israeli government in general. Look, I thought this was like a perfect example that kind of sums up the whole conflict and what people like me and you have been talking about for quite a while, Pierce. So last week when uh Israel accu after the ceasefire first goes into effect when Israel accuses Hamas of slow rolling um getting back the the remains of dead hostages. All the living hostages have been gotten at this point, but the remains of dead hostages, they say they're slow rolling it. So, they they immediately say, "We're going to have the aid that's coming into Gaza." Uh, just after this latest uh blow up 24 hours ago, they Israel announced they're going to suspend aid and distribution. That is the way in which Israel conducts this war. Don't give me any of this BS about there just happen to be some innocent people there. We're you literally punish the civilian population by denying them aid for the crimes of what Hamas has done, which by the way have not even been demonstrated. It's just Israel says Hamas was slow rolling this or they claim that Hamas violated the ceasefire when there's reporting that contradicts that, but who knows? It's in the cloud of of war right now. It's hard to know for sure. But either way, the fact that you just punish the civilian population that Israel has destroyed all of Gaza. Jared Kushner, the Jewish uh uh family friend of Benjamin Netanyahu, pro-Israel, representing the most pro-Israel uh administration in the history of the United States of America. Even he said it it looked like a nuclear bomb had gone off. People are sleeping in tents. So Pierce, you know, me and you, we've been hearing now for 2 years that, you know, essentially Hamas uses these people as human shields. You know, Hamas, they're they're essentially fair game and it's on Hamas if they get killed. Israel really doesn't want to, but they're human shields. Nothing else we could do. But then you look up and the entire thing is destroyed and they're denying aid as a weapon of war, a clear example of collective punishment. Now, I'm sure uh my my opponent here would disagree with with it being characterized as a genocide, but like what do you call that, Pierce? You've decided an entire people are just fair game because they're human shields with no onus on you to demonstrate that there were Hamas weapons in every single one of these buildings that we destroyed or anything like that. And you can also just deny aid to a people who have just been decimated to for two years as a punishment for what their government's done. And then you still have the nerve to call them terrorists and say they want the destruction of Israel. It's just too much for any reasonable person.
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Well, I mean, yeah. Look, I would say uh that in relation to Hamas, if you're an Israeli and you remember what happened on October the 7th because you lost people who died that day or kidnapped or whatever it may be, the scale of what happened that day was on a different level to anything we've seen in a single day in the entire 75 year conflict between Israel and Palestine. And it it it displayed to me not just a a terrorist view of indiscriminately killing anyone they could get their hands on, but a kind of nihilistic view. Right. So I I can understand actually why Israelis have a deep distrust of anyone related to running Hamas. I get that.
>> But I also but I think I think it's intellectually honest to say the scale of Israel's response has been massively disproportionate. the two things can be equally true.
>> I I think that's that's right. And of course, who would think any Israeli would trust Hamas, but the the other thing here, you know, I was just reading earlier today um Harets had a a piece about how essentially the Israeli government is very frustrated because there is no counter to Hamas that's rising and there aren't as many protests as they think. There aren't as many rival gangs and Hamas still has control of all this area. But Pierce, I mean, just think about what the implication of that is. How many times have me and you been told over the last two years by your guest right here in particular that it is intolerable for Hamas to still be in power and therefore we have to do whatever we can and yet they've done all of this killed tens of thousands of innocent people destroyed the entire Gaza Strip and Hamas is still in power. So even by their own logic you failed on what the goal of this war was. And by the way PICE as you know I've been sitting here I'm sorry it's a little frustrating. I've been sitting here for two years telling people you're not going to destroy Hamas this way. And every one of them said, "What are you no comedian? You're not an expert." And yet here we are at the end of the two years. Then all the pe I'm not the only one. We're all totally vindicated. Hamas is still even achieved the goal.
>> Yeah. I mean, Doris B, we were told once the hostages are all released, this is over. That clearly at the moment is hanging in the balance. I mean, I think it's it's obvious it wouldn't take a lot for this to flare up again. But what is indisputable, as Dave says, there's no sign that Hamas uh has lost all its power. I mean, they're operating with power in Gaza right now. They're still heavily armed. They have said publicly, "We are not going to disarm." So, you know, it seems to me that the original aim of releasing the hostages is one thing, but this idea that that Israel has defeated Hamas is clearly not true. So where does that leave this ceasefire other than in a very precarious place? If if Hamas just say we are not disarming, what does Israel do?
First of all, Pierce, uh I want to speak to some of the things that Dave uh just said when it comes to the fog of war, Dave, I hear that you're saying anytime it's Hamas directly targeting Israeli soldiers, directly targeting civilians, it's the fog of war. You're saying that's the fog of war. When it comes to Israel targeting kamas, you still refuse to accept the basic principle. There was no wanzi conference here. Israel is not committing genocide. There's no ethnic cleansing because they're gazins. We have one goal, Dave. One simple goal to destroy Hamas and bring home our hostages. And all of a sudden, it's not the fog of war, Dave. It is your fog. You're unwilling to understand the most basic principle here that there's probably never been a more moral war fought by an army that does not want to go to war. What's the proof? It's exactly what you're saying. As soon as we got the hostages home, as soon as President Trump put a deal on the table. It's not a perfect deal. What was the very first thing we did? We withdrew exactly to the yellow border. We exactly gave time for Hamas to return the 20 living hostages and the 29. One second. One second. I let you speak. dead. One second. I didn't let you give me Gohead one second if you don't mind. >> We waited. They just killed two of our soldiers. There was no fog of where. These two boys were sitting outside a tank walking around. They were shot by an RPG and killed in cold blood. When I listened to you, it doesn't sound like we're dealing with Hamas. It sounds like we're dealing with a bunch of kindergarten children that are out to play in the playground. This is an organization who crossed the border. And you say that you condemn October 7th, but both you and Pierce, if I may say so, you constantly say you condemn October 7th, but you also condemn every moment from them that we have tried to defend ourselves to go after Hamas.
>> No, that's not true. Hang on. No, hang on. Hang on. Hang on. Dorren, no. Dorren, you can't say that about me. I'm sorry. For many, many, many months.
>> Yeah. After this, after this started, I repeatedly was attacked actually by pro Palestinians because they felt that I was giving too much license for Israel to exercise this right to defend itself, which I felt was a duty, a moral duty to its people because Hamas has said, "We're going to keep trying to do this." And they had an absolute right to defend themselves. really my my criticism of the Israeli government and his strategy really became a lot more critical this year at the start of this year when I began to see that it was not achieving its goals. It wasn't getting uh Hamas destroyed. It wasn't actually getting the hostages released. It was leading to what I think are going to end up being categorized as war crimes like the three-month blockade. uh it was leveling Gaza to complete obliteration and I felt this was a completely disproportionate but b and probably even more significantly it wasn't achieving the initial war goals and coupled with that we have people like Smodri and Bengavir openly talking about their desire for ethnic cleansing I know I know all the hang on hang on all the Israeli internet now runs the government all the Israeli guests I have on always say you should ignore two senior members Israeli government. I'm sorry. It's a bit like It's a bit like people saying in Britain with the British government, just ignore what the chancellor says. ignore what the foreign secretary not the chancellor. They have no power.
>> These people are senior members of the government. They have an influence over Netanyahu
>> because it's a democracy. But if they have a if they have an influence spirit, then how is it? You're saying both things and they're opposites. If they have influence, we just said that Prime Minister Netanyahu agreed to an imperfect deal presented by President Trump. Even though Benvir and Smootrich and many people in Israel, including myself, including you as we opened up, I think even including Dave saying, "What does it mean? We're not winning." It means that this is not a great deal. We don't see Hamas completely obliterated. I agree with you. I agree with Dave. Hamas is still in Gaza. That how did that happen? Because Prime Minister Netanyahu is betting on President Trump. So am I. President Trump just announced that he sees Arab allies that also say they're going to go into Gaza and teach Hamas a lesson if they don't straighten out. What are we to do but rely on the word of the most powerful man in the entire world. And I'm hoping that that man is going to find a way to dismantle and destroy Hamas. It is point number one and point number nine in the deal that we signed. And if he goes and does it, we'll have achieved two goals. We got our hostages home. Many of them are dead because Hamas are cruel bastards. Most of them are alive. And if we can continue the goal of wiping Hamas out of Gaza, we can rebuild Gaza. But this these conversations when you're killing, you can't kill, you can't fight back. If we listen to these pierce, I would have raised a white flag. We would have raised a white flag. Two years ago, Hamas would be fully in charge of Gaza and all of our hostages would still be there. This has been incredibly successful. But no, it's not perfect. The fact it's not perfect does not mean that we have not achieved an enormous amount and that we cannot win. Victory, it sounds like an ancient word is in our grasp. It depends on President Trump if he's willing to go the extra mile.
>> All right, Dave Smith, I want to read what Trump posted on Truth Social. Numerous of our now great allies in the Middle East and areas surrounding the Middle East have explicitly and strongly with great enthusiasm informed me that they would welcome the opportunity at my request to go into Gaza with a heavy force and straighten out Hamas if Hamas continues to act badly in violation of their agreement with us. The love and spirit for the Middle East has not seen not been seen like this in a thousand years. It's a beautiful thing to behold. I told these countries and Israel not yet. There is still hope that Hamas will do what is right. if they do not an end to Hamas will be fast, furious and brutal. I would like to thank all of those countries that called to help. Also, I'd like to thank the great and powerful country of Indonesia and its wonderful leader for all the help they have shown and given to the Middle East and to USA. To everyone, thank you for your attention in this matter, President Trump. Um, so he's coming under a lot of pressure clearly to potentially commit American forces to engage it seems from this uh post with Israel to finish the job with Hamas. I mean, that would be to me a massive and potentially extremely problematic escalation if that was to happen.
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>> Yeah. Well, you certainly hope that it doesn't happen. Um, I I I think that it it happens quite often in American history where there presidents kind of go all-in on some type of a peace deal, not a peace deal in this case, but a ceasefire. Um, obviously this is it's very important to Donald Trump's political legacy and political capital that this works. And what ends up happening is once there's signs that it's not working, it's much easier to publicly blame the Palestinians than it is to publicly blame the Israelis. There's just much less of a political price tag. Gaza does not have a lobby and a bunch of uh billionaires and a bunch of influence in our country. And Israel does. And I'm sorry, but you can anyone can go listen to themsel for themselves to the 60 Minutes interview with uh um with Jared Kushner and with Witoff. Again, these are two representatives of the most pro-Israel government in the history of the United States of America, and they are both saying Israel was out of control. Israel had to be brought to the table. Israel was doing things that weren't in their long-term interest, says Jared Kushner. And they both also said a very interesting detail that all of the intelligence that they were getting was saying that Hamas didn't want to do a deal, but as soon as they approached them with this deal, Hamas was very enthusiastic about getting it done. And by the way, that is very consistent with reporting that's been done by Jeremy Scale and Ryan Grim, you know, like some of these uh uh journalists who actually do talk with the leadership of Hamas. Now, Pierce, to the to the point that was made before, I'm sorry, you've been interviewing me on this show for two years now or something like that, and you've had me on a bunch of times. I mean, just tell me to normal person, have I ever seemed like I'm sympathetic to Hamas or that I'm saying that they don't have the responsibility they have? I've I've come on I've chastised other critics of Israel on this show before because I think it's goofy when people do that.
>> And by the way, Dave, by the way, Dave, I would say I would say it's perfectly reasonable and intellectually honest to say Hamas are despicable and what they did on October 7th was a horrendous terror attack which obviously demanded a response, but that also Israel's response became increasingly disproportionate. I don't think these two things are incompatible.
>> Of course, of course they're not. And of course, also it's worth looking at the fact, was Hamas ready to do this deal earlier and Israel was actually the impediment to it? Look, I'm not making excuses for Hamas. I'm not pretending they're children. I'm not denying them agency. In fact, as I've been saying for years, one of the things that I'm most furious at Netanyahu for was his strategy of propping up Hamas for years, specifically with the goal of thwarting a Palestinian state. And so, you know, to sit here and then turn around and talk about how evil Hamas is and use them as the justification for why you are somehow allowed to just destroy a captive people that don't have a military of their own to defend themselves. It's just look, look, I'll just say this. There was one poll recently that had uh they said right before October uh 7th uh in America, do you sympathize with Israel or Palestine? Was plus 48 for Israel. And then the latest poll it was plus one for the Palestinians. You would be hard pressed to find a 50-point collapse in any issue. Like just imagine Pierce if we woke up tomorrow and 90% of America was pro-life. We like what happened here? I mean this is and the reason why this shift is happening is very simply because what Israel is doing to the Palestinians is so indefensible. the relationship between Israel and the United States of America is too bizarre and it does not make sense in America's interest. And number three, this type of propaganda just doesn't work on people. You can't sit here and say you're the most moral army in the world as a response to my point that you just denied food to an entire civilian population because you claim Hamas is slow rolling dead remains. I'm not saying dead remains don't matter, but we're talking about real alive babies. children, women who just went through this nightmare for two years and you are denying the collectively punishing denying the civilian population aid over a Hamas uh something that maybe Hamas did and you think you're the most moral on this Doran let me ask you a question first Doran you can respond Doran you can respond but let me just let me just let me just say something here let me just say something
>> Doran I say this. What was notable in the in the Jared Kushner interview you're talking about with with Wikov as well that they made it clear the tipping point for American intervention to reign in Israel was the completely senseless attack on Doha on the is on the Hamas negotiators who were considering the latest plan to bring this to an end which ended up killing no Hamas negotiators. um which in itself I think would have been an appalling thing to do at that time when people are trying to bring peace but actually end up killing a bunch of people unconnected including one of the Qatari security uh service people uh and that was a tipping point because Donald Trump I was there in Qatar earlier this year at the state dinner by the amir for Trump they're very close they go back a long way uh you know America has it biggest army military base in the Middle East is at Qatar and just go and brazenly attack Doha in the way that it did, I thought was an absolutely crazy thing for Israel to do. Uh it showed that they were acting with complete impunity. Didn't care about their number one ally, America, and the damage this might cause to the relationship with one of its biggest allies in the Middle East. And at that point, Trump uh went enough. We're not doing it. I mean, do you accept that that was a catastrophically stupid thing to do by Israel?
First of all, I want to address what Dave said about the poor Palestinians and they'll be the scapegoat because they don't have a lobby and Jews have a lobby in the United States. Yes, Jews have a lobby in the United States. I have news for you. The kamas regime and the Palestinians have a lobby. Do you know what it's called, Dave? It's called Qatar. Qatar, which has infected every single university in the United States, just signed a 1.2 trillion dollar deal, which is a country that is funding more terror on behalf of Iran than any other thing. Who's their other patron? Iran. Why do you think Hamas came to the table? Well, let's think about what happened over the past year. Iran, their major patron, was brought to its knees by who? By Israel. The US flew in and put the cherry on the very top of the Sunday. We fought Iran for 11 and a half days and completely completely eliminated the mask of Iran. Their other northern enemy completely annihilated. I think they probably if we don't move forward will be able to resuscitate, but they're out of the picture. Syria no longer exists and Hamas has been eliminated. Three levels of their leadership has been eliminated. Three more months of fighting would take them out of the picture. The very thing that you're saying, their very support network is gone. And if you ask me, Pierce, the strike on Qatar, I'm not a member of the government. I'm not a member of the security cabinet. I think it's not a coincidence that within 3 weeks of Israel striking Qatar, there's a peace deal that's bringing 20 hostages home. Now you might think the US had no idea I think that's completely no idea your lies. I got to be honest. I think I think that's nonsense.
>> I think that's a ridiculous thing to say.
>> Why should we apologize for striking this regime that is I want to understand something you said you this is a regime. I'm sorry Dave. This is a regime that houses the heads of Hamas. This is a regime that is intimately connected, Dave, to 911. Do you think that's a conspiracy theory? Do you think they were connected to 911?
>> Do you think is it a conspiracy a conspiracy theory that Benjamin Netanyahu sent the head of MSAD there to quote beg them to keep the funds going into Hamas? Is that theory?
>> It's true. It's absolutely true. And guess what? Guess what? Guess what? I think it was a war. I agree with your point, Dave. I agree with your point. The fact that we allowed Qatar to fund Hamas all these years under whose pressure? US pressure. Israel not wanting to get the job done was a catastrophe and led to October 7th by enabling that regime to get that funding.
>> How can you say that enough? Hold on, hold on, hold on to October. However, once October 7th happened and Israel woke up to the idea that you cannot contain an enemy like Kamas, you cannot just beat Hamas. You have to risk your lives. You have to go after a regime that spent 20 years. Dave, I was in Gaza. Have you been to Gaza? Did you go to Gaza between 2005 and 2020?
>> Does anyone on the internet not know the answer to this question, Pierce?
>> So, you have not been to Gaza. So, guess what, Dave? If you would have gone to Gaza like I did and like many other reporters, then you saw it on the news. It took 18 years for them to build 500 miles of terror tunnels under buildings on our homes which I've been in which I'm have seen it with my own eyes. And guess what? We didn't want to go in. Do you know why? Because we knew once we went in Pierce Morgan Dave Smith would be debating about genocide which never happened because kamas put their people there. You are literally so you're admitting we didn't want to do it.
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We are I actually think I actually think Doran I actually think Doran I actually think
>> when all this is over and hopefully we're at the beginning of the end when it is all over and we look back on how the MOSAD in particular the world's supposedly most brilliant intelligence agency did not know that 500 miles of tunnels were being built by Hamas or question why that might be and had no apparent knowledge of any attack of the scale that happened on October the 7th and cannot no one can explain why it took so long on that day for Israel to properly defend itself. All of these things seem pretty inexplicable for agree with the most superior armed force in the Middle East.
>> No question now that we've recoveredly the most sophisticated October 7th which my point so my point is there's a lot of accountability to come to answer some of these questions. No question.
>> And there's no doubt. There's no doubt. By the way, you talk about you talk about Hang on. You talk about Qatar, but let's talk about also, I'm going to leave it with this because we have to move on, but you know, if you look at at what Netanyahu did in helping funnel billions of dollars to Hamas through Qatar, then you know, he was trying to do divide and rule with the Palestinian Authority. It suited Benjamin Netanyahu to have the Palestinians split between these two groups. He actively encouraged it, but unfortunately he created a monster that he didn't realize or maybe he did. We don't know. He didn't realize the scale of a monster he created or that it would come and do what it did in October the 7th. And there will be serious questions for Netanyahu when this is over, which may explain why he has perpetuated this war as long as he has because he's also facing criminal a criminal court case over corruption. So there are agree I'd like one. I've got to I've got to leave it there. I've got to leave it there. Dave Dave one minute. Half a minute to respond.
>> We've run out of time. Well, no, that's just my overview. Maybe I'm wrong.
>> Well, it's not it's not your overview. That's your That's your opinion. I will just say that I will just my opinion in 20 seconds with your permission that Prime Minister Netanyahu has now carried out a war that has destroyed enemies throughout the Middle East and has put Kamas to the brink. And on that, you want to condemn him on building Kamas. He made a mistake. on fighting kamas. You cannot condemn him because that is what is going to protect Israel for the future. You should be pushing that Hamas is going to be destroyed so that Israelis be super
>> All right, let me give Dave Smith 20 seconds to respond.
>> Super super quick. Uh when Hamas won the elections back in 2005, they didn't win with a majority in one single county. They had uh in one single area. They had a plurality and they got in there. If Netanyahu had not been giving him hundreds of millions of dollars during that time period, it's quite possible Hamas wouldn't have even been in power on October 7th and it wouldn't have happened.
>> Well, they threw people off the rooftops of the building that do an investigation.
>> I think there are a lot of unanswered questions and I hope with Israel's money.
>> I hope we get to the bottom of it and one way to get to the bottom of it is to let international journalists into Gaza and do their jobs which remains a disgrace that they're not allowed to.
>> Here, start by coming to Israel. I will take you to the kibutim. You'll smell the burnt flesh and you'll understand.
>> I don't need to be reminded how I don't need to be reminded how to be. You need to smell the burnt flesh in the dirt sitting through the bones. I don't need to do that because you're quarterbacking without seeing it.
>> No, no, I don't need to do that. What I need is for international war correspondents whose job it is to do this to be allowed free unfettered access into Gaza to verify all the claims the IDF are making which at the moment they can make with impunity without anyone knowing if they're telling the truth. That is not happened in any modern war that I can recall. It is completely shameful and the IDF and Israel's government should allow journalists to go in without following them everywhere they go and showing them a sanitized version of what they've done. And when they do that, if it turns out they've committed no war crimes, fine. I will say that. I have an open mind about this. But I have deep suspicions about what the Israeli government and the IDF have got up to in Gaza given their continued ban of international journalists. It is completely outrageous that you won't let journalists go and do their jobs there. And there's a reason, I think, and I think it's a reason that Netanyahu feels very uncomfortable about admitting, which is he doesn't want journalists to find out what's really been going on. And maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think I am. Gonna leave it there. Thank you both very much.
>> Thanks, Pierce.
>> Well, joining me now is the political scientist, author, and activist, Professor Norman Ficklestein. Norman, welcome back to Uncensored. Um, you were listening to a bit of that debate. Um, look, do do you believe we're in a place now where this war is actually going to end?
It depends on what you mean by will the war actually end. My own view, which I'm happy to spell out, is that we'll probably return to the status quo ante status quo before October 7th where the blockade will remain fully in force and the conditions that created October 7th will continue. However, there is one very big difference and that difference is Gaza is no more. There is no Gaza. There's about 50 million tons of rubble in Gaza mixed with toxic substances and unexploded ordnance the international agencies say would take until 2050 just to clear out the rubble in Gaza. 95% of the housing has been pulverized. 70% of the hospitals, most of the agricultural land will probably not be able to be cultivated for decades, maybe even centuries, according to the most recent UN reports. So, there is no Gaza. I don't agree with you. I've made it clear many times. I do not believe Israel's assault on Gaza was disproportionate. It is my opinion the assault on Gaza was proportionate. It was proportionate to the goal. And they spelled out the goal very early on the first couple of weeks. Among the goals was to make Gaza uninhabitable. So, as Guora Island, a senior advisor to the government, put it, "We will leave the people of Gaza with two choices. To stay and starve, or to leave." That objective was achieved. So, it's not a return to the status quo before October 7th. The blockade will remain in place, but there's no Gaza. Prime Minister Netanyahu was hoping for a stampede out of Gaza. That didn't happen. But now he'll have to settle for a trickle out of Gaza. But whether it's a stampede or a trickle, there's nothing left there. That I think is pretty clear.
I mean, look, I Donald Trump has made it clear that he wants people to return to Gaza. We are seeing people returning to where the remains of their homes are. He's also made it clear the West Bank cannot be annexed. It does seem to me from the outside here that Donald Trump is trying what he can to certainly restrain the far-right element of the Israeli government like Smandrich and Ben from clearly their publicly stated intention for ethnic cleansing and and getting all Palestinians to leave. Trump has clearly made it clear that is not going to happen. Are you not optimistic that Donald Trump and the United States are exercising a control valve on the more radical far-right elements of the Israeli government to prevent the worst excesses here happening and that actually he is genuine in his aspiration of rebuilding Gaza and bringing a lasting peace settlement here. uh and that that that is what he really wants to achieve and that if he doesn't give Israel ongoing support in the way they've been used to from the United States then it makes Israel much more vulnerable. So it's in their interest to allow this to happen. I don't think one should attach particular importance to a statement by President Trump when as you know his statements change with the passing of each day. I am not here to attack President Trump. I am simply stating the obvious. As many world leaders have learned, not least Mr. Zilinski what pre President Trump says on one day or in one week is not necessarily what he's going to say on another day and another week. So I'm not going to parse his statements. Rather I will try to look at the big picture. President Trump has made clear that he wants what he calls the deal of the century with Saudi Arabia. Now, that in my opinion is the top item on his agenda. However, Saudi Arabia can't normalize relations with the US and Israel so long as there is a genocide occurring in Gaza. That's a bad optic. So, it's quite likely that the actual bombing, artillery shelling, and physical destruction of Gaza, I think it's quite possible that it will end because President Trump wants that deal with Saudi Arabia. As you might recall, at the time of the original Abraham Accords, the states that joined in with Israel, they made the claim that they had stopped the annexation of the West Bank. At that time, Israeli leaders were talking about annexing the West Bank. And then the uh Gulf States claimed that it was because they joined in the Abraham Accords that Israel didn't annex the West Bank. That was completely false, but that was their pretense and pretext. And now Saudi Arabia needs a pretense and pretext. And if Israel resumes the bombing, they lose any face saving excuse for entering into the uh Abraham Accords. So that's President Trump's principal goal. I agree. It's quite possible that he will enter uh he will uh prevent Israel from resuming the bombing and the artillery shelling in Gaza. However, to imagine anything beyond that, I I believe requires a suspension of your rational faculty. Israel devoted fully two years, the longest war in its history, longer than the war of independence, which began in November 1947, the Civil War. uh then extended into the invasion and that lasted till March 19 yes March 1949. This is the longest assault by Israel in its history. It pulverized Gaza. And are we expected to believe that after devoting two years to annihilating and obliterating Gaza, all of a sudden Mr. Netanyahu is going to join hands with his cabinet, sing Kumbaya, chant Give Peace a Chance, and rebuild Gaza for the 2 million people whom they targeted for annihilation, whom they targeted for obliteration, who the international a broad consensus of the international community said was committing genocide. That's as if to say that's as if to say after the annihilation the destruction of the Warsaw ghetto in 1943
All of a sudden, Hitler, Himmler, Guring had a change of heart, and they were going to rebuild Warsaw for its Jewish inhabitants. Is that believable? Is that plausible? Is that credible? I think not.
Well, I think it's, it's, I agree. I have serious misgivings about Netanyahu's intentions and what he'd really like to happen. And I have even bigger misgivings about what people like Smandri and Bengavir want to happen, because they've made it crystal clear they'd rather get all Palestinians kicked out of Gaza altogether and the West Bank, if they could do it.
Um, but the key, the key part of this is Donald Trump, who seems to me to be crystal clear in his directive that Palestinians must be allowed to return to their homes. Those homes must be rebuilt. He wants a coalition of people, including all the Arab countries that neighbor, uh, Palestine, to get involved as well. The, uh, West Bank cannot be annexed and so on. And again, I come back to my point that if it was just trusting Netanyahu to do this with his government, then I would have very little hope this could happen. But if it's America laying down markers here, that it must happen. And I completely concur with you. I think Donald Trump's tour of the Middle East, which was very successful, uh, you know, Trump is a man who believes in peace, not war, because apart from nothing else, he hates the loss of life, but he also hates the cost of war. You know, as somebody who money is his sort of driving factor for his, for his business career. He doesn't see it as anything but a massive waste of money. He spent his time in the Middle East tour, you know, racking up huge amounts of pledged investment to the United States, and he wants to preserve that, and he wants to continue what has been a mutually beneficial relationship with the likes of Saudi Arabia and Qatar and United Arab Emirates and so on, and expand the Abraham Accords. So Trump has a real motivation there, along with America, of peace and, and of actually getting what they want to happen here done. And if Netanyahu defies him, again, I come back to what I said a little earlier, which is he, he might imperil the unequivocal support from the United States. And I don't think Israel is going to roll that dice, as we've already said.
And I don't think there's any dispute between us. Mr. Trump, President Trump has made many statements. You certainly remember when he talked about turning Gaza into the, uh, Riviera.
Yeah.
You said the whole population would happily leave Gaza, that there would be incentives applied. So why we should credit a statement yesterday versus a statement a week or a month ago, I don't know.
Well, let me answer that. Let me answer that point, because I, I know Trump very well. I think that he's, he's a, a transactional guy. He's a dealmaker at heart. He believes in leverage. He often chucks things at the wall which seem extreme, and then he settles on something more moderate. And that is born from his 50 years as a real estate tycoon in New York, where you do that all the time with property prices. So it is, you know, I, I would think it's quite feasible that when Trump said that, what he was really trying to do was put the, the, the wind of fear into Hamas that this one might actually be what he really wanted to happen. And that maybe, and I don't know, we'll, we'll find out in the annals of time, I guess, that it may be that that was one of the things which eventually persuaded Hamas to come to the negotiating table and try and end this, is the thought that maybe that was what America wanted. And if it turns out Trump was playing a bit of a leverage game with them, but ultimately gets to a place where the Palestinians stay in a rebuilt and rejuvenated Gaza, and maybe ends up being the dream Riviera he talks about with beautiful beachfront resorts and so on. You know, these things can, it could happen if there's enough collective will, and if the West Bank isn't annexed. Ultimately, we could look back in 10 years' time and see that Trump's natural deal-making skills, and the way that it can appear to be very inconsistent in the moment, that actually it led to a good result. So, I would never, I take your point. You'll often change his position seemingly on a whim, but it could also be part of a negotiating pattern. And I don't think we know yet. I cannot obviously psychoanalyze Donald Trump. I do not know him intimately. I do not even know him remotely. What I can do is look at the historical record and judge from that. That I do know intimately. The historical record shows the following things. Number one, if you look at the two cases where there was a deal made, uh, they were the Camp David Accord under Jimmy Carter, 1977 and 1979. And then there was the Oslo Accord during the period of Bill Clinton's presidency. In each of those cases, it required intense concentration, focus, intellectual, uh, determination to achieve those agreements. Whatever you want to say about Jimmy Carter, he was an extremely smart fellow. Extremely smart fellow. And he was hyper-focused. I have read the record of Camp David. It comes to many volumes, the, what's called the Foreign Relations of the US volumes on Camp David. He was an, he was astonishing in his focus and concentration. The same thing can be said to a lesser extent, but still significantly, with Bill Clinton. At one point, Bill Clinton said, I think at this point, I know every street in Jerusalem, and I think there's actually a possibility he did. He was hyper-focused, extremely competent, like a Jimmy Carter. And at certain points, at certain points, each of them was willing to apply the pressure, more Jimmy Carter than Bill Clinton, on the Israelis. I see no evidence whatsoever, zero, of those qualities in President Trump.
Number two, the record also shows that the Israelis can be very, very stubborn. Actually, Jimmy Carter, who was negotiating with Prime Minister Begin at the time, he wrote in his diary that he wondered whether Menachem Begin was sane, or whether he had, and now I'm using my colloquialism, or whether he had lost his marbles. If you look at the record of the Israelis, let's just take one example. So after Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012, an agreement was signed, and it was signed by Ehud Barak. And part of the agreement, like all of the agreements, called for lifting the blockade of Gaza. And when Barak, Ehud Barak, was asked about that, he said, quote, "Nobody ever remembers the fine print when the document is signed." This part about rebuilding Gaza, letting in humanitarian aid, the very same government, when the international agencies were saying that a quarter of the population was suffering from famine. That same government said there was no hunger. You surely remember Prime Minister Netanyahu saying there was no starvation in Gaza when the international agencies were saying a quarter of the population, 500,000 people, were suffering from famine. Can it possibly be believed that this government is going to admit the requisite international humanitarian aid necessary for the people of Gaza? Or will it persist in its goal, persist in its objective of emptying out Gaza, not by a stampede, but by a trickle? Norman Finkelstein, uh, always great to have you on Uncensored. I, I hope that is not the scenario that we see, but we shall see. Uh, but I appreciate you, uh, coming on again. Thank you very much.
You're welcome. Thank you.
Well, joining me now is Flea Han, a special envoy for trade and innovation in the Israeli government. Uh, welcome back to Uncensored. Uh, Flea, Han, JD Vance has been talking in Israel, saying the US will not set a deadline for Hamas disarmament, and saying that there will be no commitment of US forces in Gaza. First of all, your reaction to to that, those two pieces of news from him?
Well, there's many more pieces of news from him from JD Vance, who's here, and who said something very clearly. First of all, Hamas has to disarm, and any reconstruction help, budget resources will not go to Hamas. And so he's very busy. And today he spent the day, uh, with Jared Kushner and W.K. Kov, uh, in Kiryat, which is a center for the international security force, putting together that security force in order to replace Hamas. What has Hamas done since Israel retreated? They returned the living hostages, which was, I think, President Trump's biggest feat that I've seen. I never thought that a genocidal terrorist group like Hamas would would give up its, its main leverage. But within 72 hours, they were supposed to give them back the dead hostages to come home for a dignified funeral. They're holding on to those bodies. They're drip-feeding them out. Two a day, one here, one there. Um, and we still have 15 dead hostages who have to come home. And that was the first breach of the ceasefire that they did. And so the second one is that they had to disarm. Now, this is something that President Trump said to them, you will disarm. And they said, we won't disarm. And the question now is, who is President Trump and the government of Israel going to bring in to be those honest brokers to make sure, A, that Hamas disarms? They are a terrorist group. By the way, I don't know whether you saw the footage, but they've been killing. They've been on a rampage killing their own people, hundreds of people, including
But Israeli Israeli forces have also been killing your own children. Wait, hang on. Hang on.
Israeli forces.
Israeli forces have also carried on killing a lot of Palestinians in the last few days.
What's happened is, first of all, they breached the agreement by not bringing back all the hostages, which was supposed to do within 72 hours. So they didn't do that. Then they started killing their own people, which is a breach of the agreement. They weren't supposed to go on a vengeance campaign to the poor people who, who had the guts, who had the courage to stand up and say, enough is enough. Look what they're doing to destroy our society. And then they threw an RPG and killed two soldiers. And so Israel has retreated to its line, as was intentioned in the agreement. If the terrorists are coming towards that line, where they're not supposed to be there, of course, Israel has to open fire. Then we have no agreement at all. So let's put that aside for a second. The point is, what's going to happen from here? And of course, you, you've had Norman Finkelstein with his revisionism, uh, and, and doom and gloom. But I really hope that if we can bring some moderate Sunni Arab countries, like the Saudis, like the Emiratis, countries that have a record of de-radicalizing their own societies from the Muslim Brotherhood. If they could do that here, that would be hope for the people of Gaza and for the entire region.
Yeah, I don't disagree. And I do think, as I said to Norman Finkelstein, I do think that it's premature to think that this is all going to end in disaster. Donald Trump appears to be taking absolute, uh, firm control, I believe, now of this situation because he wants to forge peace. He wants to normalize relations with other countries as part of the Abraham Accords, including Saudi Arabia, of course, the big prize for that initiative. And I think he recognizes that the longer this war goes on, the less likely that is to happen. So Trump has a, a pragmatic view about this based on too many people dying, too much money being spent, and the bigger picture of a, of a peaceful region in which actually most of the neighboring Arab countries to Israel have normalized relations and can live peacefully with each other. That's, that's the Trump dream.
So did we, we had that dream? Why do you think October 7th happened when it happened? Because the Saudi King, MBS, said a month before, "We're on our way to normalizing relations with Israel." And the Islamic Republic of Iran started activating its proxies to make sure that didn't happen. This is a way bigger picture than Israel and Gaza, than Hamas. There's a bigger picture that people seem to be missing. And that is the Middle East for a while now has been split into two. The countries that want peace and prosperity, the Sunni moderates, the people that have spent 10, 20 years de-radicalizing their societies, kicking out the Muslim Brotherhood and the Shia extremists in Iran, activating the Sunni extremists in the region because they don't really care about the Sunnis, but they do activate them. In the north, Gaza in the south, we've got the Houthis, uh, throwing rockets at us. And that's what's happened here. Everybody wants to zoom in and make this about Israel and Gaza, but if you zoom out a little bit, you see that there's something much bigger going on in the region. And that is why, and I've always said this, the arrangement, the solution can only be regional because this is a regional story.
I, I don't disagree with that. Uh, I want to just talk briefly about what's going on with, uh, Maccabi Tel Aviv, the football team, obviously in Israel, and this ongoing fast, it seems to me, over their trip next month with Aston Villa here in the UK. They've now announced Maccabi Tel Aviv, they're not going to sell tickets to their own fans.
How sad.
Well, I think, I think it's, it's not just sad. It's kind of slightly inexplicable at a time when the British Prime Minister's intervened and said this, this should happen. This game should go ahead with fans from both sides. It seems an odd time for the team to, or the club to just basically withdraw and and surrender on this. Why have they done that?
Because Kestama intervened, but the police never said that they could protect these fans. And so if the police are not guaranteeing their protection, what are we doing? Sending lambs to the slaughter? We're taking responsibility for the fact that Britain and the police in Britain have given in to an Islamist mob that doesn't want Jews going to that game. I think it's disgraceful. It's disgraceful that the police just rolled over and said, "No, no, it's, it's fine. We're, you know, yeah, they shouldn't be here." When did that ever happen? This is the first time it's happened. And I don't like to make comparisons to Nazi Germany, but in 1933, Jews started getting excluded from public events.
Well, I would say, look, on a technical point, it's not the first time you've had games where opposition fans have not been allowed to go. And it's often been linked to football hooliganism by British fans and British clubs actually. So, there, there is historic presence.
That's what I'm saying. And, and the, and the cynicism to say, "Oh, it's because they misbehaved." Come on, football fans are known for misbehaving. Uh, and
No, I made this point. I made this point to someone yesterday.
You use that as an excuse is so fascinating.
No, I agree. I agree. The idea ridiculous. I listen, I agree. I think the idea that the British police are incapable of avoiding too much trouble erupting at this fixture, I think is is ridiculous. And, and also it sends a very dangerous precedent where if people think, if people think that the police are going to roll over in policing football matches, then where does that end? You know?
Well, let me tell you where it ends. Where the airport authority says, "Oh, we can't take a plane from Tel Aviv because it's dangerous, right?" And then you've literally isolated and boycotted an entire country, which happens to be the only Jewish country in the world. So, you tell me. It's very, to me as a Brit, very sad to see that. Also, there's a lot of British fans of Maccabi Tel Aviv. Are they now supposed to feel scared about showing up to Aston Villa because they're on the side of the team? Let's say many Jewish people now, if in solidarity with Maccabi Tel Aviv show up, are those fans, because they're Jews, now they're not even coming from Israel, they're supposed to be worried? Is the West Midlands police going to protect any fans of Maccabi Tel Aviv, or just the ones flying in from Israel? It's honestly a very bad, dangerous, and sad precedent. I agree, and I don't think it should be happening, and I, I don't like the way any of this has been handled, and I think it sets a very bad precedent, and I'm, I'm astonished actually that that we, you know, when even the British Prime Minister intervenes and said this is ridiculous, you would have thought that the police chiefs involved would crack their heads together and work this out. And the idea, I mean, look, they've, they've policed games over the years with extremely volatile sets of fans who hate and detest each other and would kill each other if they were given half a chance. And they've managed to police those, and it's, I just don't understand why they've rolled over on this one, which sends such a, a poor message to the world.
Absolutely. And I think that two-tier policing is a very real thing. And it's
Well, you made a point I agree with. Imagine if this was an African football team, people would be outraged and calling it racism, but because it's Israel and Jews, it's okay. It's hard to, it's hard to disagree with that. I think I think you're right about that. It's open season for
Jews at the moment.
Uh, Flea Han, I appreciate you coming back on. Thank you very much.
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